A BRIEFE SVMMARIE of all, that before hath byn said, or now is to be added about this first Encounter of Bles­singes and cursinges by change of Catholike Religion. CHAP. 1.

TOVCHING the seueral ar­gumentes 1 of the Watch-word and Ward-word in general, as also of this secōd reioyneder & combat betwene Sir Francis and me, in this his VVast-word and my Warn-word, as in like maner the late [Page] arriual of O. E. his, Wrangle-word sufficient hath byn said before in the preface to the whole worke, as also in the epistle to O. E. himselfe, and in the annotations vpon both their letters to the Reader, so as now we are only to treat of the proper subiect of this first Encounter, which is this, that S^ir. F. H. being entred into a serious contemplation in the height of his careful watch ouer England and thinking to imitate perhaps herin the spirit of some hidden prophet (whome he desired to resemble) estemed it not only expedient, but incident also to the vigilancy of the office of a general watchman, taken vpon him by his owne election, & not by any mans cōmission to forwarne the people not only of great and mighty fayned daungers hanging ouer them, from Catholikes, but also of innumerable new deuised blessings, benefits and benedictions abounding among them, and flowing to them daylie by the fortunate chaunge of ould religion into Protestancy,The subiect of S F. book. breaking forth into these words of fervour:Pap. 2. Yf I should take vpon me to enter into the enumeration of all the bene [...]its and blessings that from the Almightie haue byn powred vpon this litle Isle of England, &c. And herevpon cōcludeth that seing they had gotten so greatly already by the bargaine, they should be merry and go forward, and neuer thinke of returne, &c. and this was the beginning of his watch­word.

2 To which the Warder, thinking it expe­dient to oppose himselfe,VVard vvord taketh vp S. F. for a [Page 23] false and flattering Prophet by these wordes of Esay:Esay. 3. my people they that say thou art blessed, are those that deceiue thee ▪ shewing further the great inconueniences, hurts, daungers, damages, and pernitious effects of such flattering tongues in common wealthes, & that himselfe doth con­tradict himselfe in this very poynt soone after; talking nothing els but of feares, frights, and terrours by daungers and miseries imminent to our countrey,A brag of blessings examined. without specifying or setting downe to the cōtrary any one particular bles­sing at all comen hitherto to the realme, or like to come by their new gospel, but only feeding them with those general fayre words of fleering adulation, which the warder hol­ding for fond and contemptible in so manifest, and important a matter, reiecteth them with­out further answere.

And then passing on to the poynt it selfe 3 more in particuler he reduceth all benefits and blessings that haue happened to England, or can happē, vnto two general heads or branches that is spiritual touching religion: and tem­poral concerning the common wealth, and in both these kinds, he sheweth by many weightie arguments, that not blessings, but cursings, not benefits but calamityes, haue & are lyke to fal vpon our coūtry, by this fatal & vnfortunate change of Religion, giuing ma­nifest examples in both sortes, and concludeth with a brief repetition of all, and this is the summe of the warders answere to this first Encounter of imagined blessings.

[Page] 4 But vpon this poynt replyeth now agayne the K. in this his Apology or defence,A vayne re­ply by the Knight. which vpon iust causes (as yow shal see) I haue termed a VVast-word, and first of all he maketh a solemne florish by detesting all flattery and alleageth diuers sentences of sundry Poëts and Philosophers in despraise of flattery, and then addeth, that there is farre greater flattery in Rome to the Pope, then he vseth in this place, and further that there was no contradiction betwixt his words of present daungers now imminent to England, and of former bles­sings by their ghospel receyued, so as though England be not blessed at the present, yet hath it byn heretofore, and then letting passe all that euer, the warder hath said, in the exami­nation of the foresaid two heads of spiritual & tēporal blessings, he bringeth in ten new bene­dictions freshly framed out of the forge of his owne imagination, to the supply of his former want; assuring vs that they are proper fruits of his new ghospel & ghospellers:Ten nevv fresh bles­sings. And that they haue ensued by the former change of religion: which blessings, & benedictions he auoweth to be vnity of doctrine, Liberty of reading Scri­ptures in vulgar languages, Publique prayer in English exercise of good works more then be [...]ore, free­dome from persecution, deliuerance from intolerable exactions, long peace; power in forrayne countryes, wealth of the land, multitude of subiects seuenfold increased, since the begin­ning of this change of religion.

5 This is the summe of his Apologie to this [Page 24] Encounter,VVarn-vvo [...]e replyeth. our which cometh agayne the warne [...] now (who before was only a warder as yow haue heard) and besyds his wards, war­neth also the watchmā of his wants in this his VVast-word, shewing first, that all his defence is but verbal and impertinent speach, and con­sequently iustly termed by him a VVast-word: for that to flatter, and detest I flattery at one tyme, is no defence, or iust excuse, of flattery but rather folly, and impudency ioyned to flattery, and that it litle easeth him or helpeth his cause, if there should be so great flattery in Rome as he sayth, seing that this iustifieth not▪ nor authorizeth any flattery vsed by him in England, that it is vayne and ridiculous to vaunt of blessings past, and not present, seing the present and future is that which importeth most, and not that which is past, and more ri­diculous, for that if they were true blessings which are past, they were brought in and lefte by the old Catholique religion, and if they be not now present, it is for that the new religion hath lost them: that the ten new felicityes now freshly deuised, and brought in by the K. are neyther true in themselues nor in the na­ture of blessing, but rather quite contrarie, and others nothing pertinent to the purpose, and diuers of them of no consideration at all, but rather fond and contemptible mockeryes.

And finally that S^r. F. his running out of the 6 feild,The Knight flyeth the true cōbate. and flying from all the wayes of tryal offred by the warder both about Spiritual, and temporal blessings, and cursings, is a playne [Page] argument, that he dareth not ioyne really and substantially in the combat, but only to florish for fashion sake, and to make a shew of skyr­mishing in the ayer for holding vp his credit with the bare name of a new Apologie, kee­ping himselfe warily notwithstāding within his owne listes only, and farre of from the true Encounter, and running now and then, when he is sore pressed, behind the cloath of state, that is to say protecting himselfe with the name, & authority of her Ma^tie. and of the pre­sent gouernment, where all other arguments fayle him for his defence; and this in general is the summe of all this Encounter with the K. Now must we come to examine what his Minister champion or martial procter O. E. hath brought in his supply; coming foorth after the other.

7 And first in general I must say in his prayse, and commendation,The argumēt and summe of O. E. his [...]nsvvere. that he is farre more im­pertinent, impudent, and impotent in his wryting & rayling, then is the K. or any other perhaps that euer took pen, in hand for ha­uing taken the visard of O. E. vpon his face, he thinketh that his tongue may walke at randome, and vtter any thing without blu­shing. And so to the first point about flat­tering the state with fayned blessings and be­nedictions, the minister going quite from the matter, falleth to flatter her Ma^tie. a fresh, and that most grossely in the very first lynes of this Encounter, as though the controuersy betweene him and vs were about her Ma^ties. [Page 25] prayse or dispraise, or as though the Warder, had not expressely excepted against this sottish refuge of theirs,VVard-vvord Pag. 2. by seuering the inconueniens ensuing vpon the chāge of religion, from the rare good parts both in nature, & gouernment of her Ma^t•e. as after in this Encoūter is hādled more largely. But yet this masked O. E. she­wing himselfe no lesse ful of malice & poiso­ned hatred against Catholikes then furious in heresie, falleth from flattering her Ma^tie. to bloody sycophancy, and calumniation of Ca­tholikes, as though they hated her Ma^ties. per­son, and passing from this to skore vp the bles­sings receaued by his new ghospel (which is the principal poynt (yow know) of this first Encounter he agreeth with S.F. in number only of blessings, (for he reckoneth ten) but neyther altogether in name or nature, qua­lity, or order, for he setteth thē downe thus. 1. Deliuerance from the Popes decretals,The bles­sings of O. [...]. ex­communications, taxes, and exactions, 2. Scri­ptures in the vulgar tongue. 3. true admini­stration of two only Sacraments. 4. true wor­ship of God according to Scriptures 5. peacea­ble gouernment established, and persecution remoued, 6. Catholique rytes, and seruice abo­lished, 7. deliuerance from the thraldome of Spaynards,1. hovv doth this 8 diff [...]r▪ from the first. 8. abolishment of the Popes power, and exactions, 9. Peace restored with forrayne Princes, 10. Strēgth of the land growne to be great.

This is his Catalogue, which yf yow com­pare 8 with that of S.F. before (which must be [Page] presumed, that this man had seene, for so much as it was first published and printed) yow shal perceyue that saying of old Tertullian to be true,Tertul lib. de pres [...]ip con [...]. herer. who wrote aboue 1400. years agoe, that it was vnpossible for two heretiques to agree in all points, for that both of thē being proud, and both of them following his owne brayne, it is impossible that one proud brayne should yeild to follow an other. But this shal better be seene afterward in the prosecutiō of all this first Encounter, wherin O. E. contemning perhaps the long discourse of S. F. about his new deuised blessings, sayth [...]itle therof besyds the bare enumeration now set downe, but ta­keth an other course, which is, to follow the warders wordes, as a dog at his heeles, bar­king, and gnybling at euery step, but yet so confusedly (and this of purpose as it seemeth) as neyther the reader, nor hearer can wel vn­derstand by his reply, what the watchman, or warder said before him, or what he would say now, but only contradict, and vnsay that which the other had said before.

9 And truly this kind of writing (seing these fellowes wil needs write) ought not to mislike vs,Confusion of heretical vv [...]y [...]ers. for that I doubt not, but any reader com­mōly falling vpon their books wil eyther not vnderstand them, or quickly be weary with the vanitie and fondnes therof, or at leastwyse, yf he perseuer to read, his head wil remayne so stuffed with confusion of contradictions (which is the poynt that many of these men seeke) as they cannot tel what to iudge, thinke [Page 26] or determine (especially the vnlearned) but only that all is in controuersy doubt, and dis­pute, and that nothing is cleare or certayne amōg them, which often is occasion of turn­ing agayne to the beaten path of Catholik Religiō especially to thē that haue due care of their owne saluation. Wherfore I haue ende­uored on the contrary syde, as the duety of Catholike wryters is (that seek to instruct, and not to confound the readers) to bring euery thing to methode & perspicuous order as neere as I could and as I did before in the Watch-word (which was but a cōfuse, wyld & wandring inuectiue) gather all to 8. heads, and principal members, distinguishing them, by the names, and titles of 8. seueral Encoūters of different substance and argument:The [...]thode and distinct order of this book. so now to the same author who was enforced by that my diuision to follow the same order in his answere, I haue replyed agayne conforme to that methode, but yet more distinctly for better capacity, and memory of the reader, for that I haue diuided euery Encounter into se­ueral Chapters, and yet more then this also I haue prefixed before each Encounter a sum­mary, as it were of all (as heer yow may see by this first chapter) & in the end of each En­counter for recapitulation, as it were of the whole I haue added an admonition, or war­ning to my aduersaryes concerning their faultes, and defects in that Encounter.

And for that the supplements added by 11 O.E. vnto the answere of S.F. are loose [...]hings [Page] without order or methode,S [...]opae so­ [...]u [...]. much like loose & broken broomes as the latyn prouerbe is, I haue taken paynes to bynd them vp, and kint them together, the best I could, for the readers vse, though litle they are worth when all is done, but such as they be yow shal see them in their places, when occasiō is offred to present them; which must be commonly after the Wast-word of S. F. hath byn first examined; for that this pedling marchant comming later to the faier with his wrangle-word, can not haue his pack viewed, but after the other, and so with this we shal passe to the said view it selfe, and the discreet reader shal be iudge of all.

OF THE FIRST charge of flattering the state of England, layd to Sir F. and of his owne contradiction to himselfe therin; about the deuised bles­sings of his newe Ghospel. CAP. II.

1 WHeras the warder layd palpable flat­terie to Sir F. charge about his ydle vaunt of innumerable blessings, and benedi­ctions ensued to England by change of old religion, he answereth thervnto now with this preface or proeme.VVast-vvord Pag. 3. Because (sayth he) he doth so heinouslie charge me with the odious cryme o [...] flatterie (which I hate naturally as a badge of a bas [...] mynd, but much more through Christian knowledg [...] [Page 27] as most contrarie thervnto) I haue thought it not a misse to shape a short answere vnto it, in suspicion of heresie; Hierome (as Bishop Iewel alleadgeth him) would haue no man pacient, & though I wil not burst out into any impaciēce (as considering more what is fit for me to speake then for him to heare) yet I hold that in the greiuous accusation of flatterie, I ought not to be silent.

Marke reader the poyntes; he wil shape an 2 answere, but how he shapeth it, yow shal after see, he wil not breake into any impacience, this pro­mise how wel it is obserued his future scol­ding, and contumelious words wil declare, and I shal endeuour to put yow in mynd therof, now and then when I passe by it. Hierome said (as Bishop Iewel alleadgeth) that in suspition of heresie no man must be pacient. Iewel is aleadged heere with more honour then Hie­rome, Iewel is named Bishop which he ne­uer was, and Hierome is not called Saint, which he was; and is, no place in eyther of them is cyted where the words may be read; Hierome speaketh of heresy not of flatterie, S.F. would excuse himselfe of flatterie, not of heresy for in heresy he delighteth; and how then do these things agree, and if for further proofe I should aske him whether he or M. Iewel wil stand to S. Hieromes definition of heresy and hereticks euen in those very books where he hath this sentence of impa­ciēce against heresie, to wit in those he wrote against Iouianus and Vigilantius, whom he con­demneth, and calleth heretiks for the very [Page] same opinions that Sir F. & M. Iewel do hold for ghospelyke good doctrine,Heretikes out vvith S. Hierome. I meane about Virginitie, prayer to Saynts, lights at Martyrs [...]ombes and the like. If I should aske them (I say) this questiō, whether they would stād to S. Hiero­mes definitiō of an heretik, all the wor [...]d seeth they would fly frō it for so muche as he calleth them hereticks for holding those protestanti­cal opinions contrarie to the vniuersal consent of the catholike Churche in those dayes, as our men do at this day, and how then do they al­leadge S. Hierome in matter of heresie, as though he were there frend or fauored them?

3 But to let passe this matter of heresie out of S. Hierome, whom in deed of all Fathers they least can beare, and do cal him often both borne papist, and scoulding doctor. Ievvel against D. Harding Fulke against D. Allen and D. B [...]istovv. Let vs see in particular what our knight answereth to the charge of flatte [...]ie for making Englād so hap­pie by change of Religion,Diuers shif­tes of S. F. for his defence. whervnto he de­uiseth diuers defences for first he alleadgeth very solemnely the sentence of Antistenes, and of some other Philosophers in reprehen­sion of flatterie, but what proueth this, or what is this to the purpose? nay rather is it not much more against himselfe, if he cleare not wel the charge of flatterie layd vn­to him, for that the more Poets or Philoso­phers or other Authors do condemne flatterie the more is the K. condemnation also if he be found faulty therin. Wherfore this first de­defence is no defence, but impertinent wasting of words as yow see, let vs behold his second [Page 28] which perhaps may proue worse or more impertinent then this.

His second defence is that greater flatterie 4 may be found in Rome to the Pope then he vseth to the Queene and state of England, I would send yow (sayth he) to the Popes pallace where a man may fynd more shameles flatterers then I thinke were euer to be found in any Christian Prin­ces Court. VVast-vvord Pag. 5. Wel, suppose it were so (Syr) what doth this excuse yow, why should a knight flatter in England for that a Courtier or Ca­nonist doth flatter in Rome? Yow know that company in euel doing excuseth not nor de­dem [...]n [...]sheth the synne, and S. Hierome whom yow alleadge sayth,Hieron. in Epist. ad cae­lantiam. nihil agimus, cum nos per mul­titudinis exempla defendimus, we labour in vaine whē we go about to defend our selues by the example of the multitude, & this in case it were as yow say: but how do yow proue it Syr, harken (gentle Reader) and heare his wordes.

Panormitan (sayth he) as by sundry learned men he is aleadged shameth not to flatter your Pope so farre, VVast vvord. Pag. 6. as to make him almost aequal with God, saying Eccepto peccato Papa potest quasi omnia fa­cere quae Deus potest: Synne excepted the Pope can in a manner do all things that God can doe.

Thus sayth our knight wherin I would 5 aske him first, why he had not cyted the worke or booke of Panormitā or at leastwyes some one of those learned men of his syde, by whom he sayth that Panormitan is alleadged, if he omitted the citation by negligence it was great ouersight in so weightie a matter, if of [Page] wil and purpose it was fraud, if he red no [...] the Authors himself but trusted Ministers notebookes, it was lightnes and simplicite, if his learned men that aleage Panormitan and accuse him as he doth, do not cyte or quote the place no more then he, it is the same fault in them, and a signe that they are afraid to be taken tripping, and this complaint I shalbe forced to make often, for that this shifte is or­dinary among them, not to cyte their Au­thors.

6 But now to the matter it self, I say that af­ter muche seeking in Panormitan,Panorm. part. 1. decret. de Elect. c. Licet. I haue found at length the place, and therein the woords by him and his alleaged, but with this difference, that Panormitan cyteth the sentence not as his owne; but out of Hostiensis, and sheweth the meaning to be that in mat­ters of iurisdiction and spiritual authoritie for gouernmēt of his Churche vpon earth Christ hath lefte so great power vnto his substitute S. Peters successor, as he may do thereby and in his name and vertue in a certayne sorte, what-so-euer his Mayster and Lord might do in his Church, if he were now conuersant among vs vpon earth, I say in a certaine sort, for that all both Deuines and Canonists do agree that potestas excellentiae wherby our Sa­uiour could institute Sacraments, pardon syn­nes and impart the other effects of thesayd Sacraments without their vse and the like, is not lefte vnto the Pope as not necessarie to the gouernment of his Churche, but all the [Page 29] rest requisit to that end is gyuen to him accor­ding to that great commission in S. Mathew.Matth. 16. I wil giue vnto thee the keyes of the kingdome of hea­uen, whatsoeuer thow loosest shalbe loosed and what soeuer thow byndest shal be bound, &c. vpon which commission Panormitan saith, that Hostien­sis founded his doctrine in these wordes:Host. in c. Quanto de translat. Epis­coporum. Panorm. sup. part. 1. decret. de Elect. cap. venerabilem. Cum idem sit Christi at (que) Papae consistorium, quasi omnia potest facere Papa quae Christus excepto peccato. Seing that the Consistorie or Tribunal of Christ and the Pope is one and the same in this world (as appeareth by the former com­mission) it followeth that the Pope can do (in spiritual iurisdiction) whatsoeuer Christ can doe, except lyuing free from synne.

This is the doctrine of Hostiensis expoun­ded 7 by Panormitan,Panormitan and Hostiē [...]is both abused. and if it be rightly vnder­stood it hath no more absurditie in it, then if a man should say, that the Viceroy of Na­ples can do all in that Kingdome which the king of Spaine himself can doe except being free from treason. And the like of her Maie­sties deputy in Ireland or any other substi­tute, that hath the Superiors authority ful­ly and amply.

And albeit heretikes doe wrangle herein 8 and seek to make the matter odious (as they are wont) by putting downe the bare propo­sitiō of comparing the Pope with God with­out any explication at all,VVrangling and cauel­ling of haeretikes. yet are there so many restrictions mencioned euen in this place of Hostiensis (yf they would consyder them, as easely might answere all their cauil­lations. [Page] For first where they compare the Pope with God both Panormitan and Ho­stiensis explicat the comparison of Christ not as he is God, but as he is man, that is to say, betwene the head of the Churche and his Substitute. Secondly the comparison is not in all things (as in miracles, holynes of lyfe, nor power of excellency as haue byn sayd or the like) but onely in the highest iurisdiction of Ecclesiastical matters deryued from Christ himself, and gyuen by him, as appeareth by the word consistorium vsed by Panormitan. Thirdly euen in this also is added quasi, which is a diminution in the excellency and gene­rality of the thing it self. Fourthly is put Excepto peccato, which exception though Pa­normitan do affirme to be improper in Ho­st [...]ensis maner of speaking, for that to be able to synne is no power, but rather a defect of power: Yet is it added here to signifie, that the Pope maye synne or erre in matter of fact, euen in the exercise of this power that he hath vnder Christ. Yf he vse it not wel, for which respect is added also the last restriction of all euen in that very place by Panormitan, where he saith: Intellige tamen quod Papa omnia potest claue dis [...]retionis non errante, Panorm. Ibi that the Pope can do all things of iurisdiction which Christ his Maister can,VVhat is Cla [...]is discre­tionis in the [...]ope. so long as the key of discre­tiō doth not erre; which is asmuch as if he had sayd that the Pope is bound in conscience to vse discretion consultation, inquisition, due deliberation and other fyt meanes to informe [Page 30] himself in matters that he wil do or deter­myne, which in points of faith we are most certayne that Gods holy Spirit promysed to his Churche wil euer direct him vnto; and neuer suffer him to erre.

And so much of this scornful obiection 9 guilfully cast out by heretiks to deceaue the symple and to terrify them by comparing God and the Pope without any exposition or explication as yow haue heard; which fraud I passe ouer with diuers other such ridiculous speeches auouched out of other Canonistes in this place, without cyting booke, volume, place or chapter, and not woorth the answering, and therfore I wil only mentyon our knights conclusion which is this.

And in a woord (saith he) the Canonists say 10 roundly in the glosse, Dominus noster Deus Pa­pa, our Lord God the Pope. If the Canonists so roundly affirme it,Syr F. taken in cyting Canonists. why hath not Sir F. eyther roundly or squarely quoted vs the text? Sure it is that I can not fynd it though muche I haue sought, and hard yt is to beleeue that any suche text may be fownd, which is muche confirmed by that S. F. Proctor com­ming after him to fil vp the gappes that he had left open, and strayning himself muche about this point could not find any one text of Canonist or other that had those wordes, and therfore was forced to Father them vpō Aug. Steuchus with a notorious falsification, as in the chapter following shal be shewed. But yet [Page] heere to help out S.F. with some parte of his credit,A deuise to helpe out Syr F. & for very compassion I wil ad a con­iecture of a frend of his, how he might chance to haue byn deceaued about Dominus Deus noster Papa, if he cite it vpon his owne reading, for that perchance he might fynd it written thus; D. noster D. Papa. both D.D. signifying a double Dominus, which some cauilling heretike espying, & iudging it inconuenient to repeat Dominus twyse, would needs inforce the se­cond D. to be set for Deus; This is my con­iecture confirmed somwhat by the similitude of a like fond chance wherof I haue heard as happened in the subscription of an English letter written from certayne Maryners to the Lord Admiral in these words: To the right ho­norable our good L. the L. Admiral which secōd L. a simple fellow interpreted to signifie the lady Admiral saying, that the first L. signifying the Lord himselfe, the second L. must needs si­gnifie also his lady. If I misse in this coniecture or comparison S. F. is cause therof that cyted not the text, therby to cleare all matters, and to deliuer both vs of this doubt, and himselfe of new suspition of imposture.

11 And albeit this were a sufficient answere to so foolish obiections without testimony, or authority, yet for that our K. wil needs seeme so learned a bible clarke, as to terrifie the peo­ple with the name of God imparted to crea­tures,Hovv a crea­ture may be called God. I wil aske him and his ministers in this place the meaning of a text or two out of scri­pture it selfe,Exod. 7. v. 1. as first those wordes of God in [Page 31] Exodus, dixit (que) Dominus ad Moysen, ecce constitui te Deum Pharaonis: and God sayd vnto Moyses, behold I haue made thee the God of Pharao did God giue away his deity with this thinke yow? And againe I would aske him the interpretation of those wordes of Christ, whē he sayth, Nonne scriptum in lege vestra est, Ego dixi, Dij estis?Io. 10. vers. Psalm. 81. vers. 6. Is it not written in your law, I sayd yow are Gods? And then answereth to the question, himselfe thus: Si illos dixit Deos, ad quos sermo Dei factus est, & nō potest solui scriptura. If God called them Gods to whom the speach of God was directed, and that this scripture cannot be answered or denyed &c. These two questions I haue proposed from S. F. and his Ministers instruction, not for that I do think any wryter to haue byn so simple as to calle the Pope expressely God, though yet we see clearlie by these examples that the word Deus in some sense may be appyed,Hierom. lib. 1. in Mat. also to crea­tures without iniury of the creator. And S. Hierome waying and pondering the wordes of Christ vnto his disciples 6. mat. Quem dicunt homines esse filium hominis, &c. And then agayne, Vos autem quem me esse dicitis? hath these words: Prudens lector attende, quod ex consequen­tibus textu (que) sermonis, Apostoli nequaquā homines sed Dij appellantur. Marke prudent reader, that it is euident by the consequence, and illation of Christ his wordes, that the Apostles are not called men heere but Gods. Thus said S. Hie­rome, who yet knew aswel what Idolatry meaneth as S.F. of whom I would aske, why [Page] he reprehendeth not Cambden, and other protestant wryters, that say to her Ma^•ie. Diua Elizabetha at euery word, but all may passe with these men so it be not to the Pope. And yet one thing yow must note, that whatsoeuer Canonist, or other Catholique do attribute to the Pope it is not in respect of his person, but of his office, and place vnder Christ, so that if they flatter they flatter the office, not the man, but Diua Elizabetha flattereth the person, and so it is flat and grosse flattery. But let vs go forward.

12 Yow haue heard then the two first wayes wherby the K. goeth about to excuse himselfe from flattery, wherof the first is but fond, and the second fraudulent, there followeth a third which is both impertinent and ridiculous. For wheras he is accused by the warder to be cō ­trary to himselfe,A very foo­lish defence. in that telling vs of so many blessings, and English benedictions, yet in the very same lyues confesseth infinite feares, frightes, and daungers of the realme, he hath nothing in effect to answere, but that Englād hath byn blessed for tymes past by the entrāce of their ghospel, though now through their vnkyndnes, they may be feard to be neare to misery, which kind of defence, how childish it is, who seeth not, and is as much as if he should say the head, and face, and first shew of his ghospel was fayer, & frolike, as are the sweete singing Syrienes, but the taile is troublesome, and end pernicious, and byteth like the scor­pion. But let vs heare both the warder, & the [Page 33] Apo [...]oger together in their owne speach.Pag. 2.

‘He that wil consider (saith the warder)13 with iudgment,The present state of En­glish bles­sings. and indifferency the present estate of matters in England, and round about it, (and this especially by reason of change made in religion) and shal read together the fleering tale which Syr F. telleth vs in the first lynes of his book of the infinite, and in­numerable blessings receyued (as he saith) by the said chāge, he wil eyther say, that the man lacked wit, and discourse to see the deformi­ty, and contradiction of his owne talke, or els modestie, and shamefastnes in vttering it.’

‘For notwithstanding the rare partes, and 14 good intentions of her Maiestie in this her gouernment (which no man denyeth, nor yet conioyneth with the euil successe of this alteration of religion, as wel knowne not to haue proceeded of her owne inclination at the beginning) who is there so simple that dis­couereth not, or so euil affected that rueth not from his hart the difficultyes already growne, and growing dayly by this most vn­fortunate, and fatal alteration of religion?The vvach­man con­trary to him­selfe. which this man calleth the fountayne and wel­spring whence all the rest of this our litle Islandes be­nefits, and blessings do yssue and flow. Nay doth not the seely man himselfe in all this furious, & sk [...]rneful libel of his, endeauour to lay be­fore vs a thousand feares, and fryghtes of im­minent perills, which he sayth hang ouer vs, by the diuision of hartes, of hands, of iudge­ments of affections, of partes, and partialityes, [Page] and factions within the realme? or is his whole argument any thing els in effect, but a timerous abodement of infinite ruynes, that do beset the realme at this day? And are not his owne wordes these, after a long discourse of peryls, I doubt not) deare countrymen) but that yow are men of VVisdome, and can easelie con­ceaue what daungers we stand in, by that which hath byn set downe before. And after a litle. The lyfe of religion; of Queene and countrie; is at the stake. And how then doth he pipe vnto vs this fayned note of melancholie musicke, amidst so many dreadful cares and sorrowes? hath he not read that Musica in luctu importuna narratio. Eccles 22. It is im­portune chaunting when other men are wee­ping.’

15 This said I then, what answereth our knight with his Ministers now after so long so large, and so mature deliberation of two yeares? Yow shal haue it briefelie deliuered. First they runne againe (a very graue shifte) to an other verse or two out of a poet against flaterie and dissimulation, for with this kynd of armoure Winchester schole (where after­ward he braggeth to haue byn brought vp) did somwhat furnish our knight;Encount. 6. & therfore oftentymes we haue store therof. But what more? nay no more argument, or reason al­leadged at all, but only this sentence noted in the margent, No contrariety betwixt our present dangers and our former blessings. VVherby he yeildeth to his aduersarie in the thing it selfe as yow see, and varyeth onlie in the tyme, [Page 33] confessing that England is not blessed for the present, but was in old dayes, which being past it remayneth rather cursed now, if perils, cares, and frightes be curses, and yet in his former booke (if yow remember) all seemed to be present b [...]essednes,Foolish trif­ling in matter of moment. who can suffer such tryfling in a matter of such moment? And yet delighteth he so much in this deuise of his conning distinction of tymes past, and present that he maketh a long narration ther-vpon how the people of Israel were blessed vnder diuers Kinges,VVastvvord. Pag 8. and namelie Iosias for a tyme, and yet afflicted in the end, for their ingrati­tude by this said Kings fearful slaughter.

In which example though I could trip him 16 for alleaging a false cause of Iosias murther (for he was) slayne through his owne fault, & not the peoples, for that expresly against Gods commandement,4. Reg. 25. 2. Paral. 35. he would needs fight with Nechao King of Egypt yet am I not de­lighted with this example, for that it proueth nothing, but that which it should not; to wit that our blessings of England be not present,Iosias slaughter euil ap­plied. but past, and includeth further some euil aboadment towards her Ma^tie• person, (as some may interpret) for which cause it was not the wys [...]st part in the world for the K. to bring it in; but that he seeth not or discerneth not alwayes what maketh for him or against him.

No way then can S. F. deliuer himselfe 17 soundlie from the charge of flatterie in his former fond florish of protestant blessings ex­cept [Page] he could shew vs in deed some special Catalogue of blessings, & benedictions which England hath recey [...]ed eyther spiritual or temporal or both by chang [...]ment vnto his re­ligion, more then it had be [...]ore vnder Catho­lique Religion which obligation of playne proofe the K. preceyuing, hath taken vpon him at length to set vpon that enterprise, and laying his head togeather with the consistorie of his ministers hath shaped vs out tenne new fresh benedictions, and blessings neuer hard of before, or had (I thinke) in consideration: which now we are to examine and discusse as they ly in order. But first we must see what Minister O. E. bringeth after the K. whose book came to my hand when this was writtē, and I haue promised to geue him a place also in the enterlude when his turne cometh, and when he bringeth any thing different from the former or worthy the mentioning.

PROCTOR O. E. IS called vp the stage to tel his tale & to help out S^r. F. in this matter of flattering the state, and how he playeth his parte farre worse & more ridiculously then the knight himself. CAP. III.

I Haue promised the (gentle Reader) to ex­hibite 1 a short view of the principal pointes which Proctor O. E. bringeth after S^r. F. (if any may be called principal of so paltrie wares) in his late VVrangle-word freshlie come out of England which bringeth such trash so stuffed with impotent and impudent rayling as maketh S^r. F. seeme many tymes a graue & moderate writer, though often also he wil not yeild to the other, we shal compare both & so yow may iudge. First this O.E. setteth downe my beginning of the Ward-word thus;VVrangle-vvord. Pag. 9. Diuers im­pudencies of O. E. He beginneth with a longe tale of flattery (saith he) & of the harmes ensuing therof, and at his first setting out entereth into a common place as it were into a common Inne pleasing and resting himselfe, but tyring and har­rying his reader with his n [...]edles fooleryes. By this yow may see the mans veyne, desyring to say somewhat, and aduenturing to say any thing, true or false, for that the matter of flatterie in the Ward-word is but touched in a word or two, and the application insueth presentlie; [Page] his humor therfore is discouered in vsing so base a similitude of common Innes and com­mon places therto adioyning, wherwith it may be, this minister is more delighted, then euery one of his fellowes, But let vs heare him out further.

2 VVhat skilleth it (saith he) to know what a daun­gerous beast a flatterer is?VVrangle-vvord. Ibid.and who denyeth, but that flatterie is an odious th [...]ng? but what is this to vs? can he shew that S^r. F. is a flatterer? no, nay he doth [...]ot so much as goe about to proue any such matter, nor doth he apply his common place to his purpose, but leaueth it as a fragment borowed out of some Fryarl [...]ke declamation.

3 Let any mā read the first Page of the ward-woord, and then tel me, whether this Minister haue any sorehead at all (though his head be great enough) who saith that I do not so muche as goe about to proue any such matter against S^•.F. that he flattered the State, the whole butte of my discourse in that place being nothing els, but to shew that S. F. and his fel­lowes who preach so many blessings of En­gland by change of Religion (from whence yt hath receu [...]d indeed so many manifest hurtes and dangers) must needs be famous flatterers. And this Minister an Archparasyte that blus­seth not to persuade S. F. that I durst not so muche as goe about to proue flattery against him, when notwithstanding that was my whole argument, as before yow haue heard.

But wil yow here, an other impudency as gros as this, and thereby learne to know the [Page 35] man, heere at the very beginning, harkē then what he saith of the Warder, for talking of difficulties rysen and rysing by change of Re­ligion. His aduersaries (saith he) do easely discouer his notorious ympudency,VVrangle-vvord. Pag. 1 [...]and his frends do rue his sim­plicitie, seing him to take as graunted, and boldly to af­firme that all men see and acknowlege the difficulties that aryse out of alteration of Religion, when none eyther see it or iustly can affirme any suche matter. Lo gentle Reader, what he saieth and whether it be notorious impudencie in me to say, that some difficulties haue rysen in England and other countryes by alteration of Religion, or in him to hold this for impudencie, and further to affirme, that no man can see or truly affirme any suche matter, of this I say be thow thy self iudge, who perhaps daylie feelest some part of these difficulties by the troubles feared as rysing from this fountaine and origyn.

But now to go forward in this matter of flattery how doth this minister proceed 4 therein after the K. yow shal here his method.O. E. a fa­mous flat­terer. First he setteth downe a long recital of the personal praises of her Ma^tie. out of Bishop Ozorius a Portugal in his Epistle wrytten to her very neere 30. yeares ago, and out of Petrus Bizarrus an Italian in his storye of Genua and is glad by this occasion to say somewhat, wherof he may hope to receaue a good fee, & withall to make yt seeme that we are enemies of her Ma^ties. praises which is calumnious & parasitical for we do disioyne the harmes en­sued by chāge of Religion [...]rom her Ma^ties. go­uernment, [Page] and do most willingly acknowlege the personal praises of her Ma^•ie seperated frō Religion, wherof the Warder layd not the fault on her, nay rather expresly excepted yt, though this cōpanion in repeating his woords omitteth that parte of purpose and most ma­litiously, not being desyrous the Warder should shew so dutiful affection and good opinion of her Ma^ties. person, and therby cut of the argument of this cauillers long and ydle babbel fownded vpon this calumniation;The false dealing of O.E. the Warders woords I haue related in the former Chapter and forteenth paragraph. where yow may reade them, and thereby iudge of the true dealing of this false Minister or rather the false dealing of this true My­nister, which I accompt all to be one. But let vs go forward.

5 After his discourse of the praises of her Ma^tie. he entreth to shew that Catholikes do maligne and enuy these praises (and yet was Ozorius a Catholike whom he alleageth for the greatest prayser) and so was also so far as we know Bizarrus the other praiser.O.E. Pag 2. And to proue this he runneth about the whole world to seeke witnesses, for besides Sanders Harpsfeld, Ryshton Englishmen, Bozius and Ribadinera, the first an Italian, the second a Spanyard (out of all which notwithstanding he alleageth noe one woord but their bare names) he desyreth also King Salomon to beare him witnes in these woords The wicked doth abhorre those that walke aright, Prouerb. 29. assuring vs [Page 36] that by the wicked are meant the Catholikes, and by the other parte of the sentence her Ma^tie. and from Salomon he leapeth againe to Clement 7. and Paulus 3. Popes of Rome for their sentences against King Henries mariage with Lady Anne Bollen, and the legitimation of their Children, alleaging woordes which I thinke not fit to be repeated in this place, and so should be haue done also yf his discretion had byn as great as his head,Indiscretion and teme­ritye of O.E. seing they are now past and forgotten, and were written when her Ma^tie. either was not yet borne, or of that Infancy as she could haue no part in any fault there obiected.

Yet this prating companion to seeme to 6 say somewhat in hatred of Catholikes & flat­terie of her Ma^tie. wil needs be pratlyng of these affayres, & not content with this goeth further to renew worse sores, and to accuse both K. Henry himselfe, and all the State and Parlament of that tyme with wilful murder and tyranny towards that lady and Queene, saying,Odious mat­ter brought in by this hungry pa­rasite. 1. Pag. 3. The Popes adhaer [...]ntes in England neuer ceased vntil they ha [...] brought her Ma^ties most innocent Mother to her end, which was the greatest griefe that tor­mented the King lying on his death bed, sore repenting himselfe for the wrongful shedding of the innocent Queenes blood, neyther did they onlie murder the in­nocent Mother, but also sought by act of Parlament to disable, and from the succession to exclude the daughter.

All this how true or vntrue it is, the storie 7 and actes of Parlaments of K. Henries lyfe do [Page] testifie,Lib. Statute. cap. 7. an. Hen. 2 [...]. especiallie that of the 28. yeare of his raigne, and whether matters passed so long agoe, with such publike authoritie, delibera­tion and cōsent as these did, may be called now into question againe to the infamy both of the said K. her Maiesties Father, and of his sta­te counsel and nobilitie, by such a pettie com­pagnion as this is, only to flatter, and to get himself a bigger benefice, and without all ground, or former testimony therof in storie, or other authentical register, let all the world iudge, as also how neare O. E. resembleth heere Oedipus who killed his owne Father to marry his mother, which mysterie, I leaue to the curious reader to apply in this place.

8 One thing is certayne that howsoeuer the matter passed at that tyme for iustice or iniu­stice, the cheife doers therof next to the king himselfe were prote [...]ants namelie Cromwel & Cranmer that could do most with him at that tyme,The dealing of Cromvvel and Cranmer about Q. Anne Bollē. and in effect all, and the first of them was principally imployed in the said Queenes condemnation and death as appeareth yet by publike recordes; and the second was vsed for her defamacion after her death, as is extant at this day in the foresaid statute it selfe, where Cranmers sentence is recorded iud [...]ciallie gi­uen by him,An Henry 2 [...]. cap. 7. as Archbishop of Canterburie, af­firming of his owne accord, and knowledge such [...]hings as no wyse or modest man I thinke wil beleeue, and I [...]or th [...] same cause, and for dewtiful respect to her Maiestie do forbear to repeat the same heere though it [Page 37] be vnder his hand and seale, but such a good fellow was Cranmer the first piller of prote­stant religion in England,Sand. lib. 1. de Schis. that for gayne of liuing or fauour and for enioying quietly his woman which he caried about with him in a trūke at those dayes, he would say or sweare or vnsay any thing, the sentence may be seene by him that wil, for it is extant in print in the English booke of Statutes; Neyther can this Sycophantes calūniatiō affirming the said Queens death to be procured by the Popes adherēts in Englād haue any probabilitie at al, seing that no adhe­rent to the Pope was in credit or authoritie in that tyme, but rather in all disgrace and daunger and so much of this.

After the foresaid Sycophancie and foolish 9 calumniations vsed against Catholikes for wishing euel to her Maiestie our Minister tur­neth agayne to his worke of flatterie, and tel­leth more prayses of her Maiesties gouern­ment, as though our businesse, and contro­uersy stoode in this; and not rather, in the euel euents which haue succeeded by change of religion. And to helpe S^r. F. out from the charge of flatterie layd vnto him after much ydle babling,Sup cap. 1. about particular blessings, wher­in (notwithstanding he agreeth not with the K. as before hath byn and after shal be she­wed) he runneth to the same common place before mentyoned of flatterie, vsed by cour­tiers, and canonists to the Pope, the force of which shifte and refuge how vayne it is yow haue heard before discussed,Cap [...]. and it neadeth [Page] not to be repeated heere, and the examples, and instances which he bringeth are the same for the most part which S^r. F. touched before and are before answered, as that of Panormi­tan and other canonists affirming,Panorm. in c. licet de ele­ction. idem esse Christi & Papae Consistorium, Christ and the Pope as his substitute to haue one and the selfe same Consistorie or Tribunal,Ioan. in c. Quanto de translat. Epis. whereof we haue treated in the former Chapter.

10 There is that other also how the Pope is or may be called God in the sense before mē ­tyoned, this man alleadgeth it thus: Augustin Steu [...]hus doth honour him as a God, Audis (sayth he) Pontificem Deum appellatum & habitum pro Deo, Doest thow heare the Pope called God and held for God? and then noteth in the mar­gent, contra donationem Constantini, Steuchus saith it in his booke against the Donation of Constantyne; in which fewe wordes, there are so many cousenages, or rather knaueries vsed, as no man would beleeue, but in such a cogging M [...]nister as comming latelie from Irish warres hath not learned yet to haue any conscience or honestie. For first of all that most learned man Augustinus Steuchus Eugubinus bishop of Kysam wrote no booke against the Donation of Constantyne as heere is imposed vpon him,Diuers fals­hoodes of [...] the cōsciēce­les minister. but rather for it, prouing the same most learnedlie out of all antiquitie against Laurentius Valla the grammarian that fondlie had impugned the same. Secondlie the words heere alleadged out of Steuchus though they be in his booke yet are they alleadged by him not [Page 38] in his owne name, but as comming from Constantyne the great by the testimony of Nicolaus primus Pope of Rome about 800. yeare agoe, who cyteth out of the said Donation of Constantine, Cap. 2. that amongst other honorable tytles he calleth him also God (in that sense no doubt which before is shewed by scrip­ture that both Moses and other holie men were called Gods) and herevpon Bishop Steuchus addeth those wordes before men­tyoned, Aud [...]s summum Pontificem à Constantino Deum appellatum, habitum pro Deo? Aug Steu­chus in Lau­ren. Vall. de donat. Con­stant. fol. 230. hoc videlicet fa­ctum est cùm eum praeclaro illo Edicto decorauit, ado­r [...]uit vti Deum, vti Christi & Petri successorem, & ve­lut viuam Christi imaginem veneratus est. Do yow heare how the Pope is heere called God by Constantine, and held for God, this was done when he did honour him so highlie with that excellent edict in his fauour adoring him as God, and as the successor of Christ and Peter, and reuerencing him as the liuelie image of Christ himselfe.

Heere now we see how Pope Siluester 11 was honored by our famous Britane Empe­rour Constantine the great and yet no man would cry out then,The great honor donne by Constant. the great to Pope Silue­ster. that he committed Ido­latrie, when he called the Bishop of Rome God, for the meaning was playne that he did it only in honour of Christ his Maister which was true God, and had lefte his place and power vpon earth to this his seruant, as the Bishop explayneth, in the rest of the wordes following, which the deceytful minister left [Page] out of purpose, and corrupted also those fewe wordes he alleadgeth by shutting out the wordes (à Constantino) therby to make it seeme that Steuchus spake this of himselfe, and so to make way to his lying calumn [...]ation saying as he doth, Augustin Steuchus doth honour him as a God, & by this yow may see in what case men are that beleeue these lying lippes of con­sciēceles Ministers vpon their words in mat­ters of their saluation, which are commonlie at this day without controlment in England, seing they dare aduenture to falsifie so openlie in points which they may probably doubt to be called to reckning for, by their aduersaries, as we do O.E. in this & other maters, wherin we are to charge him hereafter.

12 Diuers other places he alleadgeth and hea­peth togither taken out of Ministers note books, to proue the flatterie of later Catho­liques & Canonistes to the Pope, but they are such as eyther make nothing to the purpose or are corrupted or peruerted by him, or may haue a very true and pious sense in respect of the Popes authoritie and place giuen him by Christ, if they be wel and truelie vnderstood, and as much or more was vsed by the ancient Fathers which these compagnions do auoid to recite of purpose, for their credit sake, allea­ging only later wryters, as [...]or example the very first place cyted by this fellow out of Card [...]nal Cusanus is this:Cusan. epist. ad Eohem. Mutato iudicio Ecclesiae mutatum est & Dei iudicium. The iudgment of the Church being changed about any matter, [Page 39] the iudgment of God changeth also, and heere the ministers mouth ouerrūneth exceedingly saying these good fellowes for their bellies sake speake rayle, Ouerlashing of the mini­ster. hold their peace, wryte, faune, flatter and vnto the Popes pleasure tu [...]ne their style. But ho, (Sir swash-buckler) harken to others that had l [...]sse care of their belly then yow and yours; this of the change of Gods iudgment, after the iudgment of the Church, and of the su­preeme Pastor in particular, is a common saying of all the Ancient Fathers vpon those wordes of Christ VVhose sinnes yow loose on earth shalbe loosed in heauen and whose ye retayne shal be reta [...]ned. Matth. 16. And S. Chrisostome goeth so farre therin (who yet was neyther belly God nor flatterer) as he attributeth this of drawing Gods iudgment after theirs; not to the whole Churche and cheife Pastor onlie, but to all & euery lawful Priest also in absoluing from sinne, whose power and dignitie he pre­ferreth before Emperors, Angels, and what­soeuer els, but the only sonne of God, which may answere also the ydle cauillations of S. F. among his other allegations of flatterie in the former chapter, where he complayneth that some canonists preferre the Popes Authoritie before Emperors and Angels, let him heare S. Chrysostome.

Qui terram incolunt saith he in his 3. book de 13 sacerdotio,A discourse of S. Chrisost. of Priests au­thor tie l. [...]. de sacerdoti [...]. ‘To Priests that dwel and con­uerse vpon earth is it committed to dispence matters that be in heauen; an authoritie that God hath geuen neyther to Angels, nor Ar­changels [...] [Page] tyme in the Churche of God? what are yow I say? Yow are the great Priest, the highest Bishop, yow are Prince of Bishops, and heire of the Apostles, yow are in Primacy, Abel, in gouernment, Noë, in Patriarkship, Abrahā; in order, Melchisedech, in dignity, Aaron; in authority, Moyses; in iudicature, Samuel; in power,The iudgmēt of S Bernard about the Popes tytles of honour. Peter; in vnction, Christ, to yow are geuen the keyes, and the sheepe are commit­ted to your trust, there are other porters of heauen, & other feeders also of flockes besydes your selfe, but yow are so much more glo­rious then they, by how much more different your tytle is which yow haue inherited aboue them all. They haue their flockes assigned seuerally to them in seueral, but to yow all vniuersally are committed, that is, one ge­neral flocke to one general Pastor, neyther only are yow the Pastor of all sheepe, but of all Pastors also, do yow aske me how I can proue it? I answere out of the word of God.’

Thus farre S. Bernard, and then goeth he on to shew diuers playne places of Scripture for his profe, and those especially which S. Chrysostome, and S. Hilary before mentyo­ned, and now I feare me our minister Oedipus wil say heere, that S. Bernard is become a flatterer of Popes also as wel as Card. Cusanus, Bellarmin, D. Stapleton, and other like, whose sentences he cyteth, but eyther vnderstandeth them not, or wilfully peruerteth their mea­ning to deceaue his reader, & therby to seeme [Page 41] to haue somewhat euer to say, though he say nothing, or worse then nothing.

And heere I would leaue, now O.E. with his arte of cogging to him selfe, but that he passeth on to a contumelious calumniation, or two more against a frēd of myne, & my selfe.Pag 11▪ Gifford (sayth he) calleth Philip the second the K. of Spayne the greatest Monarch vnder the sunne to shew himselfe to be one of the gressest flatterers vnder the moone, About D. Gifford. Deane of Lile. and I say yow shew yow selfe on of the veryest fooles vnder the 7. starres to print this for so grosse a flatterie, which no man of knowledge, & iudgment, in matters of story, and cosmography, can deny to be truth, if he consider the multitude and greatnes of coun­tryes vnder him, and your selfe, that haue byn a rouing & theuing about the Indyes & other his dominions how large and wyde they ly, cannot speake this, but of wilful insolency against your conscience. And as for M. Doct. and deane Gifford, who hath his deanery by true adoption, and not by intrusion as some frend of yours, and hath his learning by studie, and not by borowing & wandering, he I say being often iniured by yow in this book wil answere for himselfe I doubt not, & for that yow brag much, that yow haue set foorth (if I mistake yow not) a booke in Latyn intituled Turco-papismus (which is nothing els, but an apish imitatiō of M. Raynolds Caluino-T [...]rcimus printed by M. D. Gifford after the Authors death) and that yow require so earnestly to haue it answered, I hold him obliged to satisfi [...] [Page] your demand, & so I make accompte that he wil take the payne to looke ouer your said worthy worke, and geue both it and the Au­thor the colours, which both deserue. And thus much [...]or my frend, now for my selfe I may be briefer.

17 It followeth, & this Noddy to shewe himse [...]fe a n [...]ble paras [...]e,Pag. Ibid.vpō whome the [...] of his whole inue­ctiue against flatterers doth mo [...] f [...]l [...] fal, [...] the Po­pe of Rome, & K. Philip the seco [...]d of Spayne [...] g [...]eatest monarches of Christendome, &c. And so we [...]ee [...]t a [...] all this common place of flattery si [...]eth this no [...]y, and his consortes very properly. Who is the true Noddy in name, & sense, hath byn discussed before in my Epistle to the Noddy-maker, but who is Noddy in fact, and merit (namelie in this place) eyther I for saying, the Pope and the K. of Spayne to be the greatest monarches of Christēdome, the one in Spiritual iurisdi­ction, the other in tēporal; or this Nodifying Minister for calling me noddy and noble pa­rasite for this speach, let all be Iudges that be no Noddyes, and whether all these before mentioned, whom he calleth my consorts in flatterie may be counted noddyes also as heere he signifieth for speaking so honorably of the Pope (wherin S. Bernard, and other anciēt Fathers must enter as yow haue seene) let wyser heads then this mans noddle deter­mine, and so I leaue him for this first combat; after we shal buckle agayne, as occasion is of­fred, and now wil I passe to continue my former treatise with S. F. about the view of [Page 42] those fresh new blessings which he hath pre­sented vs as brought into England by change of Catholike Religiō. This dilatiō hath bene made to geue his aduocate O.E. place to play a pageant also who as being I heare grosser in body thē in his two lettered name he could haue no lesse roome for the present, the next tyme he cometh vp, we may chance thrust him downe agayne more quicklie, in the meane space he may breath himselfe vntil he be called vpon agayne for an other parte of the Enterlude.

OF TEN NEVV DE­uised blessings brought in by Sir F. as pe­culiar to his Ghospel: wherof the First is Vnion in doctrine termed by him vnity in verity, and how false and vayne this is. CAP. IIII.

ALL the former subiect of dispute and 1 controuersie about flatterie in the two precedēt Chapters hath byn touching this poynt (as yow haue heard) whe­ther S^r. F. and his fellowes haue flattered her Ma^tie. and the state or no in telling them of in­finite blessings, & benedictions both spiritual and temporal heaped on the same and the r [...]st of the world by change of our ancient Fathers [Page] Religion to the nouelties that after haue spronge vp, which absurd proposition the warder hauing impugned as ridiculous and euidentlie false▪ hath pressed them to shew some parte of those infinite blessings, wherof they bragged, and S^r. F. for credits sake ha­uing consulted with his Ministers very se­riouslie as is to be presumed about this weightie poynt, cometh out now with a decalogue of them,The Deca­logue of Syr F. blessings. answering perhaps to the ten Commandements, (for whose obserua­tion the Iewes haue many blessings promised them) and in the margent he geueth this title to his enumeration à short view of blessings spi­ritual and temporal, Tvvo sortes of blessings. Pag 11. &c. and then offering me the fauour as to follow my diuision and order therin (for indeed they are so confused in their owne treatesyes as it is more hard to bring their speaches to order then to refute them) he sayth thus. I proc [...]ed to your aduertisment for a better direction to mens iudgments that all blessings of a common wealth may be reduced to two heades, the one spiritual belonging to the soule & conscience, the other temporal concerning the body and weale publique.

This is the diuision which he promiseth to prosecute and to lay vs foorth in both kyndes the benedictions, which he and his ministers haue deuised for vs, great and goodlie ones I doubt not but they wil be, yow shal haue thē as they come, wherof the formost as lady and mistresse of all the rest is tearmed by him, vni­tie in veritie importing that Protestantes haue receyued this special blessing aboue Catho­lykes, [Page 43] that they haue great vnitie and concord among themselues in matter of doctryne,Vnity among protestantes. which is as very a iest, as if a man should say that sparowes do not chyrpe, nor hennes cackle, nor dawes pratle, nor women chide, or as the foole that said to him that had an ex­traordinarie great nose, Yow haue no nose (Syr) & this is your priuiledge aboue other men, which is as good and true a priuiledge as this is a bles­sing of the Protestāts to liue and agree with­out dissention, which I am forced for decy­phering this first obiected blessing to prose­cute more largelie then I had meant, though yet I doubt not, it may be both profitable and not vnpleasant to the Reader, to see the pro­gresse therof; but yet first, it is reason that we heare Syr F. who going about to imitate my speach vsed before in the ward-word for expressing the vnitie amongst Catholikes, by the poyntes wherin they agree, he wil needs say the same, and applie it also to Protestants, which I would haue yow to consider, how fitly it agreeth. For thus he sayth.

First (sayth he) there hath bene in England since 3 this happie alteration and change from Popish super­stition to Christian veritie, Pag. 12. one God worshipped in spi­rit and truth, one fayth, one beleife, one forme of ser­uice in prayer, one number of Sacramentes, one head of the Churche, which is Christ the Lord, and his substitute annoynted and aeppoynted ouer vs our Soue­raigne and Queene, A notorious vntruthe. &c. And if yow can like to looke vpon the harmonyes of confessions, yow shal fynd all the Churches of Christendome where the [Page] Ghospel of Christ Iesus is imbraced to be of the same iudgement: & in this blessed vnitie grounded vpon ve­ritie the Lord for euer keep vs.

4 Lo heare (good Reader) the bold assertion of a theological knight by which thow maist see the saying of S. Augustine to be true.S. Angust. lib. [...]. contr. Iul. cap. 3. That the [...]orhead of heretiks is no forhead, if we vnderstand therby shamfastnes, & not the material part of their bodie. For what man in the world that hath any shame or modestie in him would set downe in prynt such a protestation as euery child that hath read any thing or knoweth the state of England at this day can controu [...]e, and those which haue read nothing by com­mon report of the whole world can cōuince to be false? Yet he begynneth this first bles­sing (yf yow marke it) somwhat reseruedly, saying: there hath byn in England, synce this happy alteratiō, one God, one fayth, one forme of seruice, &c. as though he would deale only with the vniō of England, but after he enlargeth himself, saying: yow shal find all the churches of Christen­dome, where the gospel and truth of Christ Iesus [...]s embraced to be of thesame iudgment, by which oc­casion I am enforced to lengthen somwhat my confutation and first to examine a litle the vnity of protestantes in forraine lands and churches, where theire gospel is preached, and after returning home to England to examine somwhat the same poyntes there.

5 For vnity in verity then in forrayne churches (for this is the gay deuised title of this first be­nediction) I could be content,Vnity among forraine Pro­testants. that our knight [Page 44] could shew vs, yf not vnity in ve [...]ity (which is impossible) yet vnity at least in falsity, among his professors, so as some name of vnity might be among them, for in verity (which is but one) the Protestants cannot possibly be at vnity, being so deuided and repugnant among themselues, as presently I shal shew. In fal­sytie also it is very hard for them to hould vnion,Tertul. prae [...]script. contra haeres. for that (as Tertullian sayth) mendac [...]um mendacio difficulter cohaeret. onely doth hardly stand with another ly in peace and concord: for which cause he sheweth that all heresyes lightly haue fallen at bickering among them­selues; but in none more hath this byn obser­ued then in the newe gospel of our tyme brought in by Luther, Zwinglius, Oecolam­padius Carolstadius, Ca [...]uyn, Melanthon, Be­za, and others the head doctors of Syr F. ex­terne churches in Germany, France, Suizer­land, and other places, which haue byn lightes and lanternes to ours of England, and their first doctors, and as it were Apostles, who yet were no sooner knowen to the world, but that they fel at mortal debate and dissention among themselues, and so continued all their liues, sealing it also w [...]th their deathes, as by their owne workes, testimonyes, & historyes appeareth.

For first who knoweth not that Luther be­gining 6 his doctrine in the yeare of our Lord 1517. and going forward with adding, [...]leidā. Surius Lauater & alij in hist. alte­ring, chopping, and changing for 7. yeares to­geather, before it could be made any certaine [Page] body of doctryne,Luthers be­ginning and going for­vvards. consisting in it selfe, it fel out, that with-in those 7. first yeares to wit an. 1524. three of Luthers cheefest schollers, Andreas Carolstadius, Ioannes Oecolampadius and Vldericus Zuinglius (the first and last of the num­ber Apostate priests, the second a frier, as Luther also had byn) began the new sect of Sacramentaries, quite opposite to Luther, and within two yeares immediatly following the three named doctors,Sacramen­taries & their deui­sions. profited so wel in new diuisions also among themselues, as by Lu­thers owne testimony publikely giuen in a sermon after printed, they were deuided into six seueral sects:Luth. ser. de sacra. Haga [...] habit anno 1527. Yea the Lutheran preachers of Brema wryting not long after that againe to VVestphalus a great Superintendent in Saxony, do solēnly auouch,Concionat. Bremens. Ep. de Eucharist. ad VVest­phalum. that there was in [...]nita penè opinionum apud Sacramentarios varietas, an infinite variety of opiniōs amongst the Sacramētaries that denyed the Real presence in the Sacrament.

7 And did this dissention euer end (think yow) amongst these fellowes▪ Genebr. Su­ [...]ius hoc an. No truly: but rather encreased dayly, euen vnto their dea­thes and after also; for out of Luthers do­ctryne besides these Sacramentaries, there arose in like maner the Anabaptists,Sectaries sprong from Luther, Svvinglius and Caluin. anno 1527. as themselues glory, taking occasion by his Epistle ad VValdenses, where he sayth: That it is better to leaue of baptisme altogeather then to baptise children that haue no fayth: Whervpon they left of baptisme of infants, and went for­ward in the rest of their heresyes, euen against Luther himselfe at the last.

[Page 45]After this there sprong vp also out of the 8 same sect of Luther, the potent diuision of molles and rigidi Lutherani, which endure with open emnity to this day as their bookes do testifie,Rigid and soft Lutherās VVestphalus, Illiricus, and others of highe Saxony, being the heads of the rigid faction (who resemble our puritans in Englād that would haue nothing but Caluins pure prescription, as these men would Luthers) but on the other side Melanchton and his folo­wers founders of the softer partie would fo­low Luther by discretion, taking so much as [...]rued for their purpose and no more, where vnto also do draw neere our Parlament Pro­testants in England as yow know, who re­ceaue Caluin with the limitations and restri­ctions which they thinke best, that is nothing at all of his ecclesiastical plot of gouernment, nor diuers poynts of his doctrine. And thus much of Luthers owne sect.

But out of that of Vldericus Zuinglius father 9 of the Sacramentaries issued other children not much different from the former, for their dissention and disobedience both to fa­ther and mother,Caluin. Ser­uetus Va­lent. Gentils. to wit: Iohn Caluin and Theodore Beza, and from these againe departed into another faction, other good fellowes as Michel Seruetus, Vid. lib. Cal­uini de Act. Seruet. & li­bel. Geneuae editum de act. Valentin. Iohn Caluins coleage, whome they afterward burned at Geneua for denying the blessed Trinity, and Valentinus Gentilis a new Arrian, whose followers yet remayne, though himselfe was burned also by other Prote­stants at Argentine. With these ioyned Ioannes [Page] Paulus, Alciatus, Gribaldus, and others which made afterward the sect of new Arrians and Trinitarians that yet remayne in Germany, Poland, and especially in Transiluania, as their bookes do shew.

All these and many others not only Sec­taryes but Arch-heretikes and heades of new sectes haue sprong vp out of the new gospel with-in these fourskore yeares, and haue framed Churches and conuenticles to them­selues in diuers contreyes all opposite and re­pugnant one to another, and themselues also deuided amōgst themselues, though at the b [...]ginning all proceeded of one only diuision from Catholike vnion, raysed by Luther.

So as we Catholikes may wel insult, and rightly say of them, as S. Augustine said to Parmenian▪ Aug. contra Parm. lib. 1. cap 4. multa frusta de isto frasto per totam Africam facta sunt: sic sic necesse est, vt minutatim secti, conscissique dispereant, qui tumorem animositatis suae, sanctissimo Catholicae pacis vinculo praetulerunt. Many peeces are already made throughout Africa of this one peece or diuision) wher­with yow began; so so is it necessary that they should perish by diuision and renting into most smal peeces, who haue preferred the pride or swelling of their owne animosity before the most holy band of Catholike peace and vnitie.

10 Thus saith this holy Father; neither is there any hope or meane to reconcile these parties togeather, (as in the Ward-word I af­firmed, & here wil prooue) for that the scrip­tures [Page 46] which are the only pretented meanes admitted by them,No meanes of vnion amongst Pro­testantes see of this mor [...] infra cap. 14. & 15. euery party pleadeth for himselfe, with such obstinacy in his owne sense, as no iudge being acknowledged, it is vnpossible to come to any determination. And as for Synodes & councels, wheron old fathers rested much for decision of contro­uersies, these men laugh at them; thoughe yet at last pressed by necessity, and much wearied with continual wrangling about scriptures, diuers sects of our tymes (for all it is impos­sible to draw togeather) haue byn forced for some shew that they desire agreement, to make among themselues an infinite number of Synodes, meetings parlies and cōuenticles, to wit aboue threescore and ten as Stanislaus Rescius and other writers haue gathered,Rescius li. 1. de Atheis. Euang cap 5. but yet to no effect, not being able to agree vpon any one thing in controuersy betwene them before, but rather after infinite braulings chi­dings and furious inuectiues, the one against the other, they haue departed euermore dis­agreeing, and more enimyes then euer they weare before their meeting: wherof some few examples I shal recite in this place.

In the towne▪ of Hala in Saxony, in the 11 yeare of Christ 1527. to wit some nine or tenne yeares after Luther began his doctrine,The first ge­neral councel of protestāts in the vvorld 1527. there was made the first general Councel of Lutherans togeather against Sacramentarie Suinglians, where, by a solēne decree (which they called Syngramma) they condemned the doctrine of the said Zwinglius, and his fel­lowes [Page] Carolstadius and Oecolampadius about the Sacrament, as damnable heresy, and pro­nounced iudicially (Luther being President of the councel) all the followers of that do­ctrine to be prenicious heretikes; which decree was published presently and printed in the Germaine tongue (with a preface ther­vnto of Luther himselfe) by Ioannes Agricola one of Luthers cheefe scholers, in the same yeare. But what did these men obay or yeld to this supreme authority of their new Church? noe: but presently Oecolampadius answered Luthers preface, accusing him of much pride & vanity: Oh humility of a new gospeller! Suin­glius also wrote an epistle in the Germane tongue ad E [...]s [...]igenses, wherin he courseth and canuaseth Martin Luther extreamly, calling him and his partakers furious and fanatical Swe [...] ­merers, (behold the spirit) and this was the euent of this first Synode of Lutherans,Svvermers. from which tyme vntil the yeare 1529. that is for the space of some two yeares, I reade of no other publike meetings, Synods or councels of momēt had amongst these primitiue Church Protestants, but that by bookes and wrytings only they did vex, and gaule one the other ex­treamly, and Luther himselfe gaue this seuere censure of this controuersy to them of Ar­gētine, demāding his final resolutiō;Luth. ad­monit ad Argentorat Aut Luthe­rū aut Sacramentarios Satanae ministros, &c. that eyther he, or the Sacramētaries were certainly the ministers of Satan: but he that would say both, should best perhaps determine the cause.

[Page 47]In the yeare then 1529. by meditation of 12 Philippe Lantgraue of Hessia, Three other Synods of Luth. and Suingl. in vayne anno 1529. Lauat hist. 1529. & Sleid. eodem an. an earnest prote­stant, there were three Synodes gathered of Lutherans and Suinglians in one yeare to make agreement. The first in the towne of Marspurge, the second at Suabachium, the third at Smalcaldia, as both Laua [...]erus a Suinglian and Sleidanus à Lutheran do testifie in their hi­stories, and out of all these three Synodes they departed with lesse agreement, then they met; and after their departure euery man hasted to put in print the victory against his aduer­sary. The Suinglians published 300. argumēts, which they said they had alleaged against the Real presence, and other articles of the Luthe­rans in that Synod, and could get no answere at all. And on the other syde, Melanchthon to prooue the Suinglians to be obstinate here­tikes, gathered togeather all the sentences of the auncient Fathers and Doctors for the Real presence and published them in printe. Luther also published that Suinglins in that Synod desired him with teares in the presence of the Lantgraue, that he might be receaued as a brother, but could not be admitted. Melanthō also wryting to a frend of his of that Synod sayth thus: Quantum attinet ad factionem Zuingli ego [...]oram agnoui, Melanchton epi [...]t ad Mar­tin. Go [...]i [...]iū Pastor. Brun­snicensem. &c. for as much as appertayneth to the faction of Suinglius I dyd publikely professe in the mee [...]ing at Marspurg 1592. hauing hard [...]heir cheife Doctors of that sect say what they could, that they haue no doctrine at all of Christ, but only do dispute chil­dishly, and so they cannot endure. This was Me­lanchtons [Page] iudgment & prophesy of Suinglius, as also of Caluinists in this behalfe, to wit, that they hold not Christ nor cannot con­tinew; but let our men consider whether this be true, and like to prooue a true prophesy or no; And this was the effect of these other three Synods. Let vs yet go [...]oward.

13 Two yeares after this, to wit in the yeare 1531. died Zuinglius & Oecolāpadius with­in three dayes the one of the others,The death of Zvvinglius and Oecolampadius. 1531. the for­mer slayne in the field in rebellion against his countrey and comon wealth; the secod found dead in his bed by his wiues side, strangled by the diuel (as Luther holdeth) or as wryters rather thinke,Luth. lib de missa priuata kylled by his owne wyfe. But what? was the controuersy ended with this? No: for to Zuinglius succeeded presently Bullenger and to Oecolampadius Michonius their schollers, and others that tooke vpon them to defend that faction begone. And some few yeares after that againe, there arose a famous new Apostle one Iohn Caluin a Frēch man of Picard [...],The begin­ning of Iohn Caluin and his doctrine who though at the beginning would seeme to approue the substance of the Sacramentary doctrine in denying the Real pres [...]nce, yet not content to follow, but to be followed, framed out a new opinion quite different from the [...]ormer of Zuinglius and Oecolāpadius, as the whole churche of Mās­feld doth testifie in these wordes:Confes. Mansfeldens The Calui­nists (say they) do reiect by a new deuise, t [...]e doc­trine of the [...]l [...]er Sacramentaries S [...]inglius and Oe­colampadius, who did hold that Sacrament for an ex­ternal [Page 48] signe only, but these men confesse it (in words) to be the very body & bloud of Christ substantially, & truly, but yet figuratiuely and spiritually, so as Christes body remayneth notwithstanding only in heauen, for that it cannot be in two places at once. Thus they.

So as heere now we see no agreeing at all hitherto, but rather more eager dissention amongst protestants, the further we goe downe, euen in the same sect it selfe: and where then is our knights first blessing of ge­neral vnity among his people? But this shalbe inough for Synodes and councels, for the bre­uity of this place.

THE SAME MATTER is prosecuted, and the disvnion of Prote­stantes is prooued and declared by diuers other meanes, out of their owne bookes and writings, especially of forraine Protestants Lutherans, Zuinglians and Caluinistes. CAP. V.

AND wheras I might prosecute this 1 matter with an endlesse discourse, yf I would goe ouer eyther their Synodes, Parlyes, conferences and meetings from yeare to yeare vnto our tyme, or their in­finite wrytings one against another in moste bitter sort,VVarre of Lutherans & Sacramen­taries. both Lutherans against Sacramentaries, and they against Lutherans, and one sect of Lutherans, against the [Page] other, as the ridged of Saxony against the soft of the lower parts of Germany, or the Suin­glians and Caluinists amongst themselues; I do not thinke it expedient in this place to de­tayne the reader so long, this being sufficient and more then sufficient (though it be not the hundreth part of that which may be sayd) to shew the impudency of Syr Francis his asser­tion, where he auoucheth no lesse blyndly then boldly, that all the churches of Christen­dome, where his gospel is embraced, are of the same iudgment, and in blessed vnity of verytie. For refu­tation of which mad paradox, he that wil see more, let him read first Luther and Lutherās bookes against Sacramentaries: Haereticos seriò censemus (saith Luther) & altenus ab Ecclesia Dei esse Zuinglianos & sacramentarius omnes. Luth. lib. contra Sacra­mentaries. We do earnestly censure all Suinglians and Sacra­mentaries for heretikes, and out of the church of God.Luth. epist. ad [...]lbert. Marchion Prussiae. And againe in another booke: Haud aliter caueant omnes à Zuinglio, quàm à Satanae ve­neno. Let all men take heed of Zuinglius, [...]s of the poyson of Sathan.Vid. Auti [...]ab. Luth. tit. de haeresi. And againe: Sacra­mentarij sunt perdiabolati, superdiabolati, & transdia­bolati haeretici. Sacramentaryes are indiueled, ouerdiueled, and thoroughe diueled here­tikes.

2 And to the end yow may not thinke that this was spoken by Luther in choler only without deliberacion, or recalled before his death, I wil cyte yow one sentence of his, now when he was old:Cōfes. Tigur. tract. 3. fol. 108. Ego (saith he) qui iam sepulchro vicinus obambulo hoc testimonium & [...]anc [Page 49] gloriam ad Christi saluatoris tribunal perferam, &c. I that now walke neere to my graue wil carry this te­stimony and this glory with me, to the tribunal seat of Christ my Sauiour, that I haue euer, with all vehemēcy damned and fled those fanatical heretickes and enymies of the Sacrament, Suinglius, Oecolampadius, Stinkefel­ [...]ius and their followers, whether they liue at Zuricke, or at what place els in the world.

And finally the same Luther in an epistle to 3 a deare frend of his the same yeare he died wrote thus:Luth. epist. ad Iacob. pres­byt. Ecclesi [...] Brem. Doct. 1546. Mihi satis est omnium infoelicissimo, vna ista beatitudo: Beatus vir, qui non abijt in concilio Sacramentariorum nec stetit in via Zuinglianorum, nec sedit in Cathedra Tygurinorum. Habes quid sentiā. It is sufficient for me most vnhappy man to dy with this one blessing. Blessed is the man that hath not gone in counsel of Sacramen­taries, nor stood in the way of Suinglians, nor sittē in the chaire of Tygurines (by following their sacramentary doctrine) and thus yow vnderstand what my iudgement is.

Thus much I thought good to cyte out of 4 Luther himselfe concerning his iudgment of S^r. Frācis his Churche, for that he was the first Father of his new gospel,Fox in his Calend. ma­keth Luther a saynct. and Iohn Fox doth put him in his Calender for a saynt and holy cōfessor vpon the 18. day of February. Doctor whitakers also S^r. F. great Doctor preferreth Luthers iudgment in diuers poynts expressely and precisely before Augustine,VVhitaker gainst M. Martins dis­couery. Pag. 6. Cyprian, and a thousand Churches, to wit (saith he) when he bringeth scripture for his proofe, which is a very foolish and childish exception for that the im­portance [Page] standeth in the interpretation of the scriptures alleaged, seeing that Luther as wel as other heretikes alleaged commonly euery where scriptures, for euery purpose; but then especially when he writeth against Sacramē ­taryes, that is to say against Whitakers him­selfe, and his people, wherby the said Doctors foolish censure is easely discouered to be no lesse voyd of wit, and reason then of shame fastnes; but such men they are.

5 Now if any be desirous to heare on further, what the Zuinglians,Zvvinglians against Lu­therans. and Caluenists haue re­turned home agayne, to Luther, and Luthe­rans, or on the other syde, what Lutherans amongst themselues, and Caluinists amongst themselues, haue written one against another, let them read the Apologie of the Tygurynes together with the cōfession of their Churche, set foorth anno 1545. where they shew the malignity of Luthers spirit, his pryde, and insolency, and other such vertues. Let them read the admonitions of Ihon Caluin to Io­achimus Westphalus,Calui [...]. vit. admon. con. VVestph. & in harmonia Euang. where he calleth Lu­therans, Temulento [...] cyclopes, gygantes, latratores, phreneticos, &c. Dronken cyclops, gyants, mad barkers and the like. Let them read also the answere of Westphalus,VVestph. lib. cōtr. Caluin. what he sayth of the Caluinists, exhorting the men of Frankford to dryue them out as hypocrites, and pestilent doctors, infecting the people with venemous heresy.Ochin. lib. contr. sect. teor. ter. Let them read the dialogue of Bernar­dinus Ochinus (once a preacher of heresy in K. Edwards dayes in England) contra sectam t [...]rre­norum [Page 50] Deorum. against the secte of earthely Gods, meaning by the earthly Gods, his old maisters Caluin; Pharellus and other teachers of Geneua, whom he calleth heretikes, and pro­phane Gods of Geneua, and Tygurine. of whom he sayth amongst other things: Quod noctu som­niarunt, id chartis mandant, excudique curant, suaque scripta & verba pro oraculis haberi volunt. That which they dreame of in the night, they wryte by day, and do cause it to be printed, and wil haue their wrytings to be holden for oracles. And yet these be the reuerent ringleaderes of our new Religion in England.

Stankarius a famous new Protestant sectarie 6 in Polonia, Stank. lib. de Trin. & Me­diator. wryting against not only Caluin, but Peter Martyr also, and Bullinger (two prin­cipal Zwinglians, and the one our principal Oxford professor of new diuinitie in K. Ed­wards dayes) calleth them deploratissimos haere­ticos, most desperate heretikes, and addeth, that they are farre worse then papists, and that one Peter Lombard (maister of the sentences, though he were a sworne Papist) yet is he more to be esteemed for wit, honestie, and learning then a hundred Luthers, 200. Me­lanchtons, 300. B [...]llengers, 400. Peter Mar­tyrs, 500. Caluins, all which (saith he) if they were ponded in a morter, there could not be gotten out of them one ounce of true diuinitie. This is his iudge­ment of our best Zuinglian, and Caluinian teachers.

Hessusius a famous Lutheran, wryting also 7 against Caluyn and Beza affirmeth the first to [Page] be a very sycophant and delicate Epicure of Geneua, Hessus. in defens. contr. Caluinum. & the second a very beast and lasciuious Cyclops, and his Doctrine to be more filthy, His iudgmēt of Caluyn & Beza. and venemous, then the poesie of Martial, and Catullus, fitter for the stewes then for honest men or women to read. And this of Caluinists.

8 What should I go forward heere to cyte the book of Flaccus Illyricus, VVarre be­tvveene soft and ridged Lutherans. Vigandus, Gallus, Amps­dorphius, Osiander, and the foresaid Hessusius all austere, and ridged Lutherans, against Philip Melanchthon, Eberus, Sturmius, Cl [...]be [...]ius, Chy [...]r [...]us and other of the secte of softer Lutherans, there would be no end, if we should runne ouer all, for that the fayers of Frākford euery yeare do bring forth so many new bookes in this kynd, of one of these Lutherās against an other, as they cannot be read; and so enough for the present of this external stryfe.

9 But now (godwilling) wil I drawe ho­meward toward the vnion of our domestical ghospellers,VVhat vnion in England by one iudg­ [...]nt of fo­ [...]ne Prote­stants. & in Englād, if by the way yow wil geue me leaue first to note one only point more, about these forayne sectaries, which I cannot omit, for that it toucheth England also in particuler, and is taken out of an authen­tical Author,Ch [...]min. epi. ad Elect. Brand. whome our English Protestants do highly commend in all their writings, to wit, Martynus Chemnitius, for that he tooke vpō him to examine, & cēsure the whole councel of Trent (a valiant act of a typling German) but that which is worse, he censureth the Queene, and Parlament of England also, in that which now I am t [...] alleage, and so goeth [Page 51] further then he should do. For in a letter which he writeth to the Prince Elector of Brā ­dē [...]urge, allowing first his iudgemēt, and pray­sing it greatly, quod consultum non esse iudicat, vt cum Caluinistis generalis synodus habeatur. That his highnes thinketh it not expedient to haue any general Synode with the Caluinists as they desired; and secondly he addeth his owne iudgmēt to the Dukes, about their punishmēt, to wit, that it is not conuenient, vt punitionis officium contra Caluinistas, intereà temporis penitus quiescat. That the [...]ffice o [...] punishing Caluinists in the meane space should vtterly cease, but rather be continued. Thirdly he passeth ouer to talke also of the Religion of England,Chemnit his censure of English religion. and of her Ma^•ie. by name, saying, that no good thing in Religion is fur­ther to be expected of her: That she hath vsed hardly the protestants of Germany; That she seeth & seele [...]h now a third sect rysen vp in her realme of Puritanes, which hate both her, and Caluinians, and are enemies also to Lutherans: and then he scoffeth, that she being a woman hath taken vpon her to make Ecclesiastical lawes. And lastly, quod soemineo, & à seculis [...]naudito fastuse Papissam & caput Ecclesiae fecit. That with a womanly pryd (I am forced to interprete his wordes as they ly) neuer hard of in former ages, she hath made her selfe a shee Pope and head of the Churche.

Thus sayth he and much more, and if any 10 Catholike wryter had set downe these wor­des, how would Syr F. haue inueighed against vs for them? But now what wil he say to this cheefe champion of his new gospel? Is this [Page] the vnity they haue among them? did Lucifer & his angels euer more furiously fight amōg themselues, then these their folowers do? But heere we must stay our hand and goe no fur­ther in forraine fights, but rather get home (as I promised) and see what passeth there, among only Caluinists, and whether they be at any better peace then their brethren are at abroad, and yf not then wil we laughe at Syr F. againe, for his vnity in verity.

THE CONTINVATION of thesame narration about vnity in ve­rity, among ridged and soft Caluinistes, na­med Protestants & puritaines in England and Scotland. CAP. VI.

1 HAVING bene ouerlong in this narra­ration of sorraine disagreement amōgst new gospellers, therby to shew the vanity of Syr F. his vaunt, who said that all their churches in Christendome were of the selfe same iudgment, and blessed vnity; there wanteth not matter to make a farre longer recital of their domestical bic­kerings, hatred and dissentions, rysen among the Caluinists of England and Scotland, since the raigne of her Maiestie seing there are ex­tant so many bookes of those matters, both betweene Cartwright, Whitgyft, Lupton, [Page 52] Martyn Marprelate, Mar-martyn, & amongst the rest O. E. also (as is reported) togeather with whole collections of the issue made & divulged by publike authority, wherin the controuersyes,Bookes be­tvveen pro­testants and Puritans the one against the other. stryfes, and maner of defen­ding them are particularly set downe, togea­ther with the combats, and assaultes sleights, shifts, indeauours and pollicies of each syde, which comedy though it be ouer long for me to bring into this place yet wil I touche some few principal poynts for the readers instruc­tion, and partly also for recreation, concer­ning the good agreement of th [...]se people, or rather their warre and bickerings; being all professors of one and the selfe same sect, to the end we may see what vnity in verity they haue, as our knight braggeth, or rather how their spirit of diuision is no other then that of the Lutherans, Swinglians and other secta­ryes, before rehearsed, and as all other hereti­kes haue euer byn before them, & shalbe after them, for that the selfe same spirit of one and the selfesame find, doth and shal possesse them all to the worldes end.

First then to beginne with some poynts of 2 doctrine especially touching princes (of whome heretikes comonly are egregious flat­terers yf they fauour their sects, and notorious traytors & paricides, yf they be against them) let vs heare the more ridged part of Calui­nists, called Puritans cōcerning her Ma^tie▪ au­thority,Caluinian contention about Prin­ces authority wherwith the knight seeketh conti­nually to presse vs, as though we denied both [Page] spiritual and temporal which is most false in the one; but his men (I meane English Prote­stants and Puritans) are so deuided among themselues in this poynt, as is incredible, espe­cially to him that heareth the fauning flatte­ry of Sir F. to her Maiestie in his watchword, and knoweth not what his doctors do hould and practise elswhere to the contrary. For harken now to his Ministers assertions in this behalfe.

3 Princes (say they) may be deposed (by the peo­ple) yf they be Tirants against God and his truth, Knockes in hist. Scot. Pag. 78. & 372. and their subiects are free from their oathes of obedience. Again the people are better then the king and of grea­ter authority, Bucchan. de iure reg. pag. 61.13.25.58.40.62. &c. they haue right to bestow their crowne at their pleasure, they may arraygne their Prince and depose him: To them it appertayneth to make lawes, and to the prince to execute them; they haue thesame power ouer the king, that the king hath ouer any par­ticular person: and it were good, that rewardes were publikely appoynted by the people for such that kil ty­rants, as there are for those that kil wolfes and beares.

4 Againe when the mylder sort of Caluinists doe obiect to these rough and ridged brethrē of thesame sect,Obiections finely ans­vvered. some places out of scripture, or otherwise to temper this humor, as, that we must obay kings whether they be good or bad:Knokes ap­pel. fol. 26. they answere, it is blasphemy so to say. Againe when these obiect, That God placed euil kinges and Tyrāts sometymes to punish the people. The others an­swere: So he doth sometymes priuate men also to kill them. Moreouer when they alleage S. Paule, [Page 53] That he comandeth vs we should pray for princes, [...]uch. de iure reg. pag. [...]7. 1. Tim. 2. The other do answere, we may punish theeues and pray for them also. And when these reply that the same Apostle commaundeth expresly, to be obedient to such a prince. 1. Tim. 3. They answere:Buch. Ibid. Pag. 50. That Paul wrote this in the infancy of the Churche but if he liued now, he would say other­wise, except he would dissent from himselfe. Ibid. fol. 56.57. I leaue much more that might be alleaged to this effect,

And all this and much more is testified also 5 by a brother of their owne, of the softer sort in a book printed at London by publike au­thority in the yeare 1593. by Iohn wolfe, the title wherof was, Dangerous positions, &c. with this posy adioyned vnto it out of the epistle of S. Iude: They despise gouernment, and speake euil of them that are in authority. And hauing geuen testimony to this which I haue cyted, & much more, he giueth his censure of others also of the same profession beyond the sea:Lib. 1. Pa. 12. This new diuinity (sayth he) of dealing thus with Princes is not only held by Knockes and Bucchanan alone (that are Scots) but generally (for ought I can learne) by most of the cheefe consistorians beyond the seas being of the Geneuian humor, as Caluyn, Beza, Hot [...]mā, &c.

And the same wryter in his second booke, afterward doth shew at large how that M^•. Goodman, M^r. Whittingham, and other Eng­lish Protestants that fled to Geneua in Q. Ma­ries dayes haue left wrytten the same, & farre worse positions against the authority of prin­ces, as in their bookes, and in the foresaid col­lection [Page] of this author may be read.

6 Here then these matters being so, and of so great waight, and the contradiction being open and notorious concerning princely au­thority and obedience thervnto belonging, what wil our knight say here, or how wil he defend vnity in verity to be amōg his brethrē in this so principal & capital a poynt, or how wil he satisfie her Maiestie her [...]n after all his faire speech? for he doth not deny the Puritās to be his brethren (as O. E. doth afterward) but rather defendeth them with main and might, as after yow shal heare.

But if we leaue the Prince and come to Bishops, which is the second principal mem­ber of their churche and body, their disagree­ment is much more notorious, then in the former. For as the protestant speaketh hono­rably of them, so doth the Puritan quite con­trary: calling them;Dangerous posit. lib. 20. cap. 12. the greatest and most pestilent enimyes that the state of England hath, vnlawful, false, & bastardly gouernours of the churche, thrust in by ordenance of the diuel, petty antechrists, cogging & cosening knaues, profane, paltery, pernicious, pestilent Prelates, in respect of their places, enymyes of God, their calling meere Antichristian, &c. And this for their bishops and cheefe pastors, whome they ought to presume according to S. Paules speech to be put ouer them (yf any be) by the holy Ghost, Caluinian contradictiō about the Bish. & cheefe Pastors. Act. 20. But yf they be enymies of God, cogging knaues, petty Antichrists, and ordayned by the diuel himselfe (as these their owne children and brethren say and sweare) then are English [Page 54] protestants wel directed by them, and to a good end wil they come. But let vs heare what they say of their immediate pastors and teachers, I meane their ministers and present cleargie.

Our supposed ministers (say they) are a multitude 7 of desperate and forlorne Atheists, Ibid cap. 13. Of their mi­nisters. Ibid. cap. 11. accursed, vncircum­cised, and murthering generation. The cleargy is en­dighted as the followers of Antichrist; they are wolues; it is a Sinagoge of Sathan, their only endeauour how to preuēt Christ, they are knowne to be enimyes vnto all syncerity, Posir. ibid. li. 2. cap. 4. &c. And in another place: Right puis­sant, poysoned, persecuting and terrible priests: The holy league of subscripsion, the crue of monstrous and vngodly wretches, horned masters of the conspiration house, Antichristian, swynish rabble, the conuocation of diuels vnder Belzabub of Canterbury chee [...]e of di­uels, &c. Thus of them.

And concerning the whole gouernment,8 face,Ibid. cap. 4. and corps of the Churche of England, they say: Antichrist raigneth amongst vs; the established gouernment of the Churche is treaterous against the Maiestie of Iesus Christ, it giueth leaue to a man to be any thing but a sound Christian, &c. And this of their whole Churche parts and pastors therof.

But I let passe what these fellowes say & wryte of her Maiestie,About the Q councel and parla­ment. head of their Churche, denying wholy her ecclesiastical authority, and subiecting her to their pryuate excom­munications when they please,Dang. posi [...]. lib. [...]. &c. Of the Lords of her priuy Counsel also, charging them not to deale in matters ecclesiastical. Of [Page] the Parlament in like maner and lawes made therby (which in Englād is the highest court) saying in particular therof;Ibid. lib. 2. cap. 1. that as great indigni­ty is offred vnto Iesus Christ, in committing his English Churche vnto the gouernment of the common lawes, as for hir [...]lings vnder any great king to commit his belo­ued spouse vnto the direction of the mistresse of the stewes, &c.

9 Finally of their common book of seruice and administration of Sacraments established by Parlament,The comm [...] ̄ book of Pro­testants. (wherin by name Sir F. in this reply braggeth so confidently,VVast. Pag. 12. that their is so great vnity amongst them) these his brethren wryte thus:Dang. posit. lib. 2. cap. 9. There prescript forme of seruice is ful of corruption in all the order of their seruice, there is no edification but confusion, The Sacraments are wic­kedly mangled and prophaned, they eate not the Lords supper, but play a pagent of their owne to blynd the people, their publike baptisme is ful of childish and su­perstitious to [...]es, &c.

10 All these fights, warres and dissentions in most principal points of their religion are at this day in England betwene ridged or strayt Caluinists (commonly called Puritans) and the softer [...]ort of the same Caluinian sect, who are distinguished from the others by the name of moderate Protestants, that do follow, for their rule of faith and religion, the prescript of Parlament, and her Ma^ties. proceedings.

11 But now besides this contrariety of posi­tions, there is yet another dissention among these brethren, more important then all the rest, which is their disagreing, and capital eni­mity [Page 55] about the interpretation of Scriptures,VVarre in expounding scriptures. wherunto all matters being by both their iudgments to be referred, and all other iudges and trials left a side, as they require, they come to fal out presently about the sense and inter­pretation, wherin it is affirmed by their owne wryters, that so many men, so many myndes and so many diuers interpretations among them-selues of the selfesame words of scri­pture, are to be found, as yow may see set downe at large in another book of the softer Caluinists set forth by the same publike au­thority as the former, and intituled A suruey of the pretented holy Discipline imprinted at London An. 1593. especially in the 31. Chapter, whose title is this. How and with what disagreement they wrest and misconster the scriptures, &c. Where ha­uing shewed by many examples that fiue or six diuers interpretations are giuen some­tymes vpon one and the selfe same sentence of scripture, by these his puritane brethren. He addeth further these wordes.Suruey. c. 31. Caterbraulis. of Protestāts and Puritās. Vnto these Cater­braules and pitiful distractions, (which now I haue shewed) I might ad a great heape of other confusions, all proceeding from such intollerable presumption, as is vsed, by peruerting and false interpretation of the sacred Scriptures. And agayne, whosoeuer doth deale with the Scriptures in this sort, (as these fellowes do) wel may he speake proud things, exalt himselfe, promise mountaynes, brag of the Prophets, & Apostles, but in the end all cometh to nothing, &c.

Loe heere what this brother sayth of the 12 rest, of the caterbraules, and pittiful distra­ctions [Page] from them, of their intollerable pre­sumption in peruerting, and false interpreting scriptures, of their swelling pryde, in bragging of hauing the prophets, and Apostles on their syde, when they haue nothing but vanitye, & yet these brags of scriptures, prophets and A­postles, must be good and currant proofe, when they deale with vs against the authori­tye of the vniuersal Churche, as yow shal see by O.E. in the next Chapter, and when we tel them of any diuision among themselues, they wil deny it on all handes, as Syr F. doth heere of the Puritanes, and O. E. afterward, though he hath written against them most spitefully and doggedly (for he hath no other style as it seemeth) and fynally let all men iudge but especially the reader, whom it most importeth for his instruction, with what truth, and conscience Syr F. can say and wryte as he doth (matters stāding as I haue shewed) that not only the professors of their ghospel in England, but all other Churches also in Christendome, where the ghospel is imbra­ced are of one Iudgement, and thervpon cō ­clude with this hypocritical prayer to mock God withall, And in this blessed vnitie grounded vpon veritie the Lord for euer keepe vs. Whervnto I say also amen, so long as they remaine ene­mies to Gods Catholike Churche wherin on­ly veritie and vnitie is to be found.

AN ANSVVERE TO three fond obiections, or interrogations of Syr F. with an addition about O. E. who is called vp agayne to the stage to tell his opi­nion about this first blessing of vnitie in ve­ritie. CAP. VII.

AND this now might be sufficient for 1 refutation of this first ridiculous bles­sing set downe by the knight were it not that I am forced to follow him, yet a litle further, into an other poynt, which is, that he forseing how albeit this first blessing of vnitie among them could be proued (as it cannot) yet might it not be alleaged for a peculiar blessing of his men, except it could be shewed also, that it were singular to them alone, and not commō also to Catholikes, before they, and their reli­gion sprong vp, for if we had vnitie also in fayth before them, then cannot vnitie be ac­compted their blessing, more then ours, for which cause he endeauoureth to shewe, that Catholikes had no vnitie of fayth before Lu­thers ghospel began, which paradox he wil needs proue by three graue interrogations, which I pray yow note, and therby obserue the mans singular wit, and learning.

Yow vaunt (sayth he) of a general vnitie before al­teration 2 of religion, Pag. 13. but how worshipped yow one God, when yow worshipped so many Idols? [Page] To this I answere that if we worshipped Idols,Three fo [...]d interrogatiōs [...]f the K. and so were Idolators, this error was so vniuersally receyued among vs, as euen in this poynt also we had vnitie, which prote­stants cannot shew in their errors, and falsi­tyes, as before hath byn declared. And so this question is both ydle, and easy to answere, for the consequent, but for the antecedent it is most false, for we deny that any Idols were among Catholikes.August. de vtilitate ie­iunij tomo 9. [...]ub finem. S. Hier. in c. 6. Amos & in c. [...]2. Ose. S. Augustines and S. Hie­roms sentence is cleare and sound, as before hath ben noted that heretikes are the Idola­ters of the new Testament, for adoring their own fansies.

2 Secondly he asketh agayne, how we could haue vnitye, when as we were so miserably rent into innu­merable sectes of fryers, and monkes? To which I answere, that all these professed one fayth without any difference in any one article of beliefe. And consequently this question is more simple then the former, for that diffe­rence of habytes, or particular manner of lyfe breaketh not vnity of religion.

3 Thirdly he asketh, and vrgeth yet more sharpely, how cā yow haue one head of your Churche, vnles yow reiect Christ, that is the onely head? To this I wil answere out of his owne wordes, that we can haue one external, and ministerial head vnder Christ by the same reason, that himselfe in the same place sayth, that English Protestants haue one head of their Churche, which is Christ the Lord, and his substitute annoynted their Soueraigne Q. vnder him. So that yf it do not [Page 57] exclude Christ among the Protestants to haue a womā head of their Churche vnder Christ, much lesse doth it exclude Christ among vs, to haue a man head, & a Priest head, & of this reason I am content to make any man iudge.

And with this I wil end my treatise of the first benediction of vnitie in veritie, which is as truly, and fitly applyed to Protestants, as if a man should assigne it for a special blessing of Greeks and Germanes aboue other nations, neuer to exceed in drinking, or of those of Guinea, neuer to fal out, or fight among them­selues, who neuer lightly are occupyed in other things.

And lastly I wil close vp all with the sen­tence,4 and prophesy of no worse a man then Martyn Luther himselfe,Luthers pro­phesye of Protestants. coment in Psalm. 5. who wryteth thus, Certè non alia ratione confligit Deus cum haereticis, quam vt inter illos existat factiosus quidam dissensionis spiritus; ex [...]llorum enim discordia interitus quoque & perditio consequitur. Trulie God doth not fight by any other meanes with heretikes, then by permitting among them a certayne seditious spirite of dissentiō, by which their ouerthrow also and perdition doth ensue. Thus said Lu­ther a man ful of your ghost and extraordi­narily enlightened which the spirite of prote­stants; whose Father and founder he was, and he speaketh of yow and yours in particuler to wit, Zwinglians & Caluinists & therfor yow may beleeue him if yow wil, and thus much to the K. about this controuersie now to his champion the martial Minister.

[Page] 5 I dismissed from the stage some two or three chapters past (if yow remember) syr F. his procter O.E. to cunne a new his part against he should be called vpon againe,O. E. is cau­led vp to the stage. now his cu cometh in to say a word or two more, and so we must needs make him roome though very briefly, for he hath littel or no matter of substance at all to entertein vs withall in this place.

First then albeit he holdeth and affirmeth resolutely as the knight doth that on his syde there is no diuision at all of any moment in matters of Religion, but that all disagreement is among vs,Vnitye no blessing vvith O. E. yet doth he not put this vnitie of his people in the Catalogue of his blessings re­ceaued by the new ghospel, and this perhaps for that he hauing written so eagerly against the Puritanes (as he is said to haue done) he dareth not admit them now so easely to the vnion of brethren, as S^r. F. doth, who is held for a great proselite or rather patrō of theirs, which matter shal be discussed more particu­lerly afterward in this Encounter. Now we are to treate only of this first benediction of vnitie among Protestants, wherunto, (as I said) the Minister vouchsafeth not to geue any place in his list of benedictions, though it haue the first and chiefest in that of S.F. from whom this honest man differeth not a litle though both agree in the number of ten.Pag. 4. Let vs heare this mās Role, he saith that his bles­sings are of two sortes spiritual, and temporal, six of the one sorte, and fower of the other, [Page 58] the spiritual are these, as he recounteth them.O.E. his de­calogue of blessings. 1. deliuerance from the Popes decretals 2. Scriptures in English, 3. true administration of Sacramēts, 4. true worship of Christ, 5. fredome from persecution. 6. abo­lishing of Romayne Rytes. The temporal are. 1. deliue­rance from the thraldome of Spanyards. 2. abolishing of the Popes exactions. 3. peace restored to the land, 4. the strength of the Realme greatly increased.

This is his decalogue of blessings, wherby 6 if no other argument were of the disagreeing spirite of these fellowes among themselues, this might serue for one, to consider the diffe­rence betweene this list, and that of S^r. F. (which yet must needs be presumed that this man had viewed, the same hauing byn pub­lished so long before his) for if yow com­pare them together, yow shal fynd singuler [...]arring in so short a matter,Disagreing in the names and qualities of blessinges. for that fyue or six of S^r. F. Blessings are quite lefte out by the Mi­nister, to wit, vnity in veritie, publique prayer in English, aboūdant exercise of good works, power in forrayne countryes, and multitude of subiectes seuenfold increased. The first spiritual also and the 2. temporal are all one, and the 5. spiritual of freedome of persecu­tion seemeth rather temporal, then spi­ritual.

And on the other syde the knightes head 7 conceaued not perhaps that the abolishing (for example) of Romane Rytes, was a distinct blessing from the other of deliuerance from the Popes authoritie, and decreetals, as the Minister maketh it, or that their true admini­stration [Page] of Sacraments, and their true wor­shipping of Christ (being general poynts) could enter into the ranke of particular bles­sings, more then all the rest of their religion, or lastly that the deliuerance from Spaniards may be accompted an effect of the English ghospel, hauing byn also in so many ages be­fore, when Englād was Catholike, for which cause he omitted these blessings in his Cata­logue, but finally these are arbitrary matters, and deuises of their owne braynes, & ther­fore no maruayle though each man haue his owne.

8 And this is so much in effect as we haue to heare from Oedipus our Minister at this tyme, about this first and chiefe blessing of S^r. F. which this man disauoweth as yow haue seene, though yet as, I haue noted a litle before when we come to the poynt to vrge him with dissention among his people, he denyeth it flatlie, and braueth more then any other, for heare his wordes in this place, speaking of the warders speach about their diuision. VVhere the warder saith he, affirmeth that we are deuided not only frō the general body of Catholikes in Christēdome, but also from our selues, he telleth vs his owne dreame, and fancyes, fleeting in his ydle brayne without any ground or truth.

9 Lo heere (good reader) his resolute ans­were, but whether I haue any groūd of truth or no, thow hast seene in the former three or fower chapters about their diuisions and when thou hearest such desperate deuyals of [Page 59] all groundes, & withal seest on the other syde so many and great, groundes, it may frame a iudgement in thee of their māner of procee­ding, and of their resolution to breake wil­fully through what hedge or wall of truth soeuer standeth betweene them, or in their way.

And yet I cānot but warne thee also in this 10 place for this whole book, and once for all, that neuer lightly shal it be foūd that this cog­ging Minister, alleaging my wordes, doth alleage them truly, and sincerely, but altereth, leaueth out, or addeth at his pleasure, though on the other syde he putteth them downe in different letter, as myne owne precisely, & if I would nūber his knacks in this kynd, through­out his reply I should make of this point only a whole volume, yet shal I geue a note here and there when the matter commeth to purpose as heere now thow maist take a taste, for I said in the VVardword. Pag. 4. VVe English of the new profession are not only different, and deuided from the general body of Catholikes in Christendome with whom we were vnited before, but also amōg our selues, and with other new sectaryes sprong vp with vs, and after vs, False and fraudulēt al­leaging ad­uersaryes vvordes. we haue implacable warres, and are deuided in opinions, as with Lutherans in Germany and Denemarke, from Swinglians, in Switzerland from Caluinists in Geneua, France, Hollād, Scotlād, which wordes if yow consider them do make a more playne and ful sense, then those that the Mi­nister pleaseth to repeate, suppressing, and leauing out so much as he thinketh may ex­playne, [Page] or mollifie matters, as heare the wor­des, we English professing the new ghospel are de­ [...]ided from the general body of Catholikes in Chri­stendome, with whom we were vnited before, &c. all these wordes I say which go in a different letter he wilfully put out, and then in steed of my saying, that we are deuided among our selues, he sayth from our selues, which maketh a farre different sense th [...]n among our selues: and so vsing these shiftes in euerie place, matter, sen­tence, and almost periode and lyne which he alleageth of myne, yow may ghesse to what bulke it may aryse in the whole worke, and what certayntie, the reader may haue of any thing that is alleaged by him, and that these false laddes, by these corruptions, and shiftes, do indeauour, not to establish any trueth at all, but to fil all with dowtes, and diffidence, and so much of this beere for that afterwards oc­casion wil be offred to returne to some of this treatise agayne. Now then let vs passe on to the remnant of S^r. F. Blessings.

OF THE SECOND AND third blessings, which are, reading of scrip­tures and publike seruice in English. CAP. VIII.

HOw trew the former first blessing hath 1 bene of vnitie in veritie we haue suffi­cientlie (I think) declared;Conditions of true bles­sings. Now folow the other nine about which we must remember that which before hath byn touched to wit, that to proue them peculiar and special bles­sings of Protestants, it must be shewed that they were not among Catholikes before, and thē also that they are matters of such weight and moment as they do or may deserue the name of blessings, and yet further that they are trulie found in deed in Protestants doc­tryne, and not feigned or supposed by our knights only fancie or imagination, and lastlie that they are general and vniuersal to the whole Churche of Protestantes, and so accor­ding to these fower conditions, and circum­stances of true blissings we shal examine the rancke of them that do ensue, & in this chap­ter some 2. or 3. of them seuerallie.

Wherfore to come to the matter, he sayth 2 that his second blessing is,The second blessing a­bout reading scriptures in English. that the scriptures are now in English for euery man and womā to read, &c. This blessing, say I, hath not the [...]ormer con­ditions required, for first it is not general to all, seing that such as vnderstood the latyn tōgue [Page] before, receyue no blessing herby, nor yet those that had licence before vnder the Ca­tholikes from their ordinaries and pastors (for that was alwayes permitted as the world knoweth) to read scriptures in the English tongue haue receyued any blessing therby, so that this benediction must needs be restrayned to those people alone, that being simple and ignorant of the latyn tongue, were accompted before by their pastors and Prelates vnfit to profit by such reading of scriptures at their pleasure in their vulgar tongue, but rather had need to be instructed otherwise, and to haue so much scripture deliuered to them by other meanes of cathechismes, homiles, preachings and such like instructions, as they were capa­ble of, without laying opē to them the whole corps of scriptures to conster and misconster as their fancies should aford them.

This was the censure and iudgement of the Catholike Churche before Protestants arose, which course our knight calleth darknes an [...] blyndnes, and the contrarie course of permit­ting scriptures to all without distinctiō he [...] needs haue to be a singuler blessing brough [...] in by his men,Of diuers that perished by reading [...]criptures in vulgar Lan­guages. but yet I would aske him, wha [...] blessing it was to such as fel into heresies an [...] perished therby, that of liklihood would no [...] haue happened vnto them, yf that libertie & freedome of reading scriptures in English ha [...] not byn permitted.

3 And I gaue for example of this in the ward [...]word, an instance of one Ioane Bourcher (alia [...] [Page 61] knel) in king Edwards dayes,Stovv anno 1549 Edo­vvardi 6. reg. anno. 3. who being a simple woman, but yet heady and wilful by reading scriptures in English learned to hold and defend that Christ had not takan flesh of his mother the Virgyn, In like manner I aske, was it a blessing to the tanner of Colchester her copsmate,Stovv Ibid. who picked out of reading scrip­tures that Baptisme was worth nothing, & so held to his death, affirming that he could defend the same by playne and euident scriptures, so as neyther Cranmer Archbishop of Canter­burie, nor the rest of the Protestants in those dayes (who had taught them to read scriptu­res) could conquere, or cōuert them by scrip­tures, but were fayne to burne them with fyre for the good effect proceeding of this their owne blessing (if it be a blessing) wherby all are permitted, and inuited to read scriptures in English.

George Paris also a simple duitchman was burned by the said Archbishop in the same kings raigne,Stovv & Holinsead Ibid. for houlding, that Christ was not equal to his Father which he auouched to haue learned out of the sacred bible, that he had studyed in his owne language, and could not be dryuen from it by any disputatiō of Cran­mer, Rydley, or any other our English mini­sters, but only by the fyre, which at length they vsed, to conuert him into ashes.

In this Queenes dayes also at the verie be­ginning when scriptures were first published 4 in English,Stovv. anno 1561. Reg 3. Elizab. William Geffrey and Iohn More did read so earnestlie, and interprete so sound­lie [Page] as they learned to hold, and affirme, that Christ was not in heauen, & were whipped pub­likelie for the same, vntil they confessed the contrarie: so as the reading scriptures in En­glish was no blessing to these men but onlie a blessing with a whip as yow wil confesse.

5 In the 17. yeare also of her Maiesties raigne, when 27. Anabaptists vulgar people were ap­prehended togither,Stovv an. 1575. & 1576. and punished in London by order of the L. Mathew Parker of Canter­burie, for denying Christ to haue taken flesh, and other such opinions, and two of them burned in Smythfeild, and fiue others of the familie of loue, brought in publike pennance at Paules crosse for heresies, who all auouched not­withstanding, that they had drawne their newe doctryne out of the reading of scriptu­res in the vulgar tongue, what blessing I pray yow was this to thē, or to such other as haue fallen into other sectes since that tyme, both of Brownisme, Puritanisme, & other fancyes condemned by the Protestants themselues, & detested by the present state of Englād, which yet they had neuer done (by all likelihood) if this publike reading of scriptures without re­straint or due moderation had not byn per­mitted to the ignorant:Systers of London in the suruey of dang [...]erous positions. Those busy sisters of London also, and other citties wherof the late protestāt wryters do so much complayne in their books against Puritanes, who gad vp & downe with English bibles vnder their armes, and wil defend any thing against any man out of scriptures, would not so much [Page 62] haue troubled eyther themselues, their hus­bands or the common wealth if this blessing had not byn permitted to them, or if it may be accompted a blessing, and not a cursing that maketh both them and other ignorant people so mad and franticke in heresie.

So as now it is to be considered, whether 6 the blessing of Catholikes be greater, among whom this promiscuous libertie of reading scriptures in vulgar tongues is not permitte [...], but rather moderated by choice of persons, or els the new fashion of protestantes permit­ting all to all sortes without exception or dif­ference eyther of sexes, condition, capacitie age, ability, or other fitnes, & when this poynt is wel pondered I think Syr F. his second bles­sing wil proue a very poore one, euen in the iudgmēt of those that be wyse & discreet of his owne professiō. But let vs goe forward to the third for of this we shal haue occasiō to speake againe in the 2. Encounter more largely.Encount. 2. cap. 7. & 8.

His third blessing is, that they haue not onlie 7 the Scriptures, The [...], bles­sing of pu­blique ser­uice in En­glish. but also their common Churche seruice in a vulgar tongue; the weight of which blessing may in parte be pondered by that which hath byn sayd about his second: for if the necessitie or Scriptures in the English tongue to euery particular man & woman be so smal as before hath byn shewed (many thousands both protestants and others being within the land euen at this day that cannot or do not read them, and yet may be saued, as I thinke he wil not deny) and that to some the reading also [Page] hath byn pernicious and not a blessing bu [...] rather cursing through their owne insuffi­ciency (as by former examples I haue sh [...] ­wed) much lesse necessitie is there of publike seruice in vulgar tongues, seing that publike seruice is appoynted to be said or song to the prayse of God and in the name of all the peo­ple by publike Priests and other ecclesiastical officers appoynted thervnto, nor is it needful alwayes for the people to be present at it, bu [...] onlie in spirit and consent of hart, nor whē they be present to intermedle with that func­tion, but rather to attend each one to their priuate deuotions, as we read of Zacharias the priest Father to S. Iohn Baptist of whom S. Luke the Euangelist wryteth: that according to the custome of Priesthood in those dayes he wēt vp into the temple when his lot came to offer publike incense, adding as concerning the people,Luc. [...]. Et omnis multitudo populi erat orans fo­ris hora incensi. All the multitude of the people did pray without; during the tyme of his in­cense, that is to say, whyle he performed his office of publike Sacrifice, the people stood a loofe and prayed by themselues, wherby we may perceyue that the people in tyme of pu­blike seruice and sacrifice among the Iewes (in place wherof S. Augustine sayth that Christ hath appoynted his sacrifice of the Masse among Chri­stians) did not intermedle in the publike ser­uice,Aug lib 17. de ciui [...] c. 20. Leo serm. [...]. de Passion. but attended to their owne deuotions a [...] is now in custome in Catholike coūtryes, ex­cept onlie in certayne hymnes, litanies, pro­cessions, [Page 63] or other such parte of the seruice as is generallie to be performed by al.

Wherof it foloweth that it is not necessa­rie 8 that all publike seruice in Christian Chur­ches should be in the vulgar tongues of euery nation & country,Not neces­sary for the cōmon peo­ple to vnder­stand the pub­li (que) seruice. nor do we read that euer it was ordinarily but in the three learned lan­guages of Hebrue, Greeke and Latyn: sancti­fyed by Christ in the tytle of his Crosse, nor is it conuenient (as ancient Fathers do testifie) that all things which are handled in Churche seruice praesertim in sacris misterijs (to vse their wordes) should be vnderstood by all vnlear­ned people in their owne vulgar languages,Dion. lib. de Eccles. Hie­rarch cap. 1. Orig hom. 5. in numerū. Basil lib. de spiritu sancto ca. 27. Chrys. hom. 24. in Matth Greg. lib 4. Dialog. cap. 56. and so doth teach both S. Dionisius scholler to S. Paul, Origen, S. Basil, S. Chrysostome, S. Gregory & other Fathers, for which reuerent respect it is like amōg other causes, that the said common Churche seruice hath euer byn vsed in one of the said learned tongues.

As for example in Iurye it selfe and Hie­rusalem 9 it is euident that the publique seruice was in the Hebrue tongue,Comon ser­uice in Iury not in vulgar tongue. which yet was not the vulgar tōgue, nor vnderstood commonlie by the people without an interpreter as ap­peareth lib. 2. Esdrae. cap. 8.

And that the Syrian tongue was the vulgar language of the Iewes in Christs tyme appea­reth clearlie by the words Talitha cumi, Marc. 5. Matth. 27. Marc. 14. hachel­dema, golgatha, Pascha, abba and other such, re­corded by the Euangelists, which are no Hebrue, but onlie Syriak wordes, as all lear­ned men know.

[Page] 10 And as for the Apostles them-selues after Chri [...]t though they had the gifte of all lan­guages, and did both found Churches ouer all the world, and appoynted them their order of seruice and other poynts necessarie therunto belonging, as both by their owne wrytings, and other Apostolical Authors ensuing after them,Rom. 10. Coloss. 1. Irenaeus li. 1. cap. 3. is euident, yet shal we neuer read that they wrote to any of these particular nations or to their Churches in vulgar languages but onlie in one of the three former tongues, as hath byn said.

Neyther can it be shewed out of any Au­thor of Antiquitie whatsoeuer, that any Chri­stian Catholike country since the Apostles tyme had publike seruice in any language but in one of those three except by some special dispensation from the Pope and vpon special consideration for some limited time.

11 But on the contrarie we can shew innu­merable testimonyes out of all Antiquitie for the vse of one of these three tongues (for rea­ding of Scriptutes and publique seruice of euery nation.Seruice in Greeke.) As of the Greeke tongue in Syria, Hieron. prae­fat in [...]. Epi [...]t. ad G [...]. Cappadocia, Egypt and almost in all other the east partes which was not yet their vulgar tongue as appeareth by S. Hierome in many places shewing that the Greeke edi [...]ion of the Scriptures by the 70. interpreters was only in vse in all those places.Aug. lib [...]. Doct. Christ. c. 13. & lib. de bon. perseue­ [...]an. cap. 13. And S. Augustine testifieth for Africa, that the psalmes in his tyme were wont to be song in the Churche in the Latyn tongue, and the same Author also in an other [Page 64] place, repeating the words vsed in the preface of the Masse at that day, (which are the very same we haue now) to wit sursum corda, habe­mus ad Dominum▪ Gratias agamus Domino Deo no­stro, dignum & iustum est, &c. doth euidentlie de­clare that the latyn Masse was vsed in his tyme, though yet the Latyn tongue in Africa was not vnderstood by the vulgar people.Latyn ser­uice.

And the like hath S. Cyprian about the same Latyn preface of the masse in his tyme at Car­thage many yeares before S. Augustine was borne.Cypr. ser. de. orat. Dom.

And as for other particuler countryes S. Isyd lib. 2. de diuini effi­cijs. Isydorus a Spanyard testifieth for Spayne almost a thousand yeares past that the Churche seruice in his tyme was there in Latyn,Conc. 4. To­let. cap. 2.11.13.14. And the fourth councel of Tolet about thesame tyme testifieth the same.

And for Frāce testifieth thesame our great learned Englishman Alcuinus M. Alcuin. li. de diu. offic. of Charles the great about the yeare of Christ 840.Bede lib. 1. hist. Angl. cap. 1. And for En­glād testifieth Beede before him; as after shal be shewed; and no man can doubt but that S. Au­gustine our first Apostle brought in our first ser­uice from Rome in Latyn. Raban lib. 2. de institu [...]. clericorum. Rupert. lib c. de di [...]inis off [...]js. And for Germany testi­fieth Rabanus Archb. of Moguntia aboue 700. yeares past, and Rupertus Abbas some ages after him agayne. And the same might be shewed particulerlie of all other particuler countryes by ancient Authors of the same nations and tymes.

Wherfore if the rule of S. Augustine often 12 [Page] by him repeated be true,Aug. lib. 4. contra Dona­tist. cap 24. which is, that when anything is found generally obserued in the Catholike Churche and no beginning to be found therof that this cometh most certaynlie from the Apostles by tradition. And if his other sentēce be also true,Aug. epist. 13 [...]. where he sayth disputare contra id quod vniuersa Ecclesia facit insolentissimae insaniae est. It is a poynt of most in­solent madnes to dispute against that which the vniuersale Churche doth practise: If this I say be true and that the general practise of the Christian world be euident in this behalfe for vsing one of these 3. learned tongues onlie in publique seruice & publique vse of scriptures what shal we say of the insolency or madnes of S^r. F. & his fellowes that not onlie wil dis­pute and pratle against this practise and cus­tome of the vniuersal Churche, but also wil make the breach therof a peculiar blessing, whereas notwithstanding those that passe from country to country & do find the seruice in particular vulgar languages which they vnderstād nothing at all, must needs accompt it rather for a curse then a blessing to haue it in those vtterlie vnknowne vulgar lāguages, seing that euery man lightlie vnderstandeth somewhat of the Latyn eyther by learning or vse because it is comon to all and taught in euery countrie but not so of euery vulgar lan­guage out of the contrey where it is natiue, & this much of this first poynt or part of my answere.

THE SECOND PART of the answer about Churche seruice in En­glish, conteyning some authorityes aleaged for it but much corrupted and abused by the knight. CAP. IX.

BVT now remayneth the second part 1 which is to examine what the K^t. brin­geth for proofe of this imagined bles­sing. And first he alleadgeth and vrgeth much the Authorite of S. Hierome who said of his tyme (as this man cyteth him) that Tota Ecclesia instar toni [...]rui reboat, Hieron. prol lib. 2. in co­m [...]t. in Gal. Amen. the whole Churche like a thunder did sound out Amen, by which words he would inferre, that therfore the publike seruice was in vulgar tongues in S. Hierome tyme, but marke (good reader) by this one example (yf there were no more) the fraudulent manner of these mens aleadging Fathers. For first this speach of S. Hierome is of the Churche of Rome, (as after shal be proued) where no man can doubt, but that the seruice was in Latyn and consequentlie the example is euel brought to proue seruice in a vulgar language, and secondlie it is no maruayle though the people sounded out Amen, in Rome where most men vnderstood the Latyn tongue and those that did not, yet might they easelie vnderstand by vse what the word, Amen. signifyeth and when it is to [Page] be vsed. And I would aske of our K. whether our Churche also in England (where yet the Latyn tongue is not so common as in Rome) did not sound out Amen, in Queene Maryes dayes and other Catholike tyme [...] in the masse, and other seruice, when it was in Latyn [...] Wil any deny this, but eyther an ignorant or im­pudent man? Let him go but ouer sea to Paris, where the vulgar tongue is French, and heare what the Catholike people do sound out in the publike seruice though it be not in their vulgar language?Beed. lib. 1. hist. Angl. ca. [...] & 20. Let him read S. Beed aboue 800. yeares agone, who wryting of our Churche of England, & shewing first that the vse of publike seruice in his dayes was in the Latyn tongue, (as afterward is proued more at large) rehearseth a notable storie,Enc. 2. cap. 4. how S. Germanus & S. Lupus, frēch Catholike Bishops called in by Catholike Britanes against here­tikes, did set forth a certayne army against the Pelagians and other Infidels, and gat the vi­ctorie by repeating the word Allelu [...]a sounded out like a thunder (as he sayth) by all the Catholike army.

And yet I do not thinke that S. F. wil go about to proue by this Argument, that all that Army vnderstood the Lat [...]n tongue, or els the hebrue for that Alleluia is an hebrue word, and no mo [...]e doth it proue that the Roman Churche had their seruice in a vulgar tongue vnderstood by all for that they sounded out Amen, and so much of this.

2 But now we are further to consider of a [Page 66] notorious fraud of the K.False dealing in alleadging S. Hierome. in this place for that as he & his do neuer lightlie aleadge any Father or Doctor for their purpose without some sh [...]fte or imposture (the Fathers being wholie and euery where against them) so here S. Hieromes text & whole discourse being quite contrary to him, he durst not aleadge the whole sentence but culled out the words aleadged and framed them to his purpose. Tota Ecclesiae instar tonitrui reboat, Amen. which words stand not in S. Hierome as he alleadgeth them, but are altered and patched vp by him, to make them seeme in his fauour, leauing out craftilie both that which goeth immediatlie before, & presentlie doth follow, for that they made against him and his who [...]e cause of pro­testants religion, which here I shal explayne.

S. Hierome in his pro [...]me cyted of his se­cond 3 book vpō the Epistle to the Galathians cited here by the knight taketh an occasion to shew vnto the two Virgines Paula and Eusto­chium (to whom he dedicated his book) why S. Paul in his Epistle to the Romanes praysed so much their faith:Rom. 16. His words in latyn are these.S. Hieron. proemio lib. 2 comment. ad Gal. Romanae plebis laudatur sides: vbi alibi tanto s [...]udio & frequentia ad Ecclesias, & ad martyrum se­pulchra concurritur? Vbi sic ad similitudinem caelesti [...] toni [...]rui Amen reboat. The fayth of the people of Rome is praysed by the Apostle. For where in any other place of the world do the people runne with so great diligence and concurse vnto the Churches and sepulchres of Martyrs as in Rome? where do they so much sound [Page] out the word Amen, to the likenes of an hea­uenlie thunder?

4 Heere now we see the Romanes faith highlie praysed by S.The Catho­like deuotiō of Rome. Hierome and proued to be more excellent then of any other Chri­stians in the world for their earnest deuotion and running to Churches and sepulchers of martyrs, this if Syr F. had put downe sincer­lie as it lyeth in S. Hierome it would haue marred his market, and giuen a great buffet to his religion as yow see, speciallie if he had ad­ded the wordes immediatlie following in S. Hierome,S. Hier. Ibid. which are these. Non quod altam ha­beant Romani fidem, nisi hanc, quam omnes Christi Ec­clesiae, sed quod deuotio in e [...]s maior sit & simplicitas ad credendum. The fayth of Rome is speciallie praysed by the Apostels aboue others, not for that the Romanes had a different fayth from that which all other Churches of Christ do hould, but that their deuotion, and simplicitie in beleeuing was greater then the rest.

5 By which words is euident, first that in S. Hieromes tyme the Romayne faith was accompted the general Catholike faith of all Christendome which Romayne faith (as after more largelie shal be demōstrated) was sent into Britany by Pope Eleutherius before S. Hieromes tyme,Enc. 7. c. 6.7. & after his tyme brought into England agayne by S. Augustine the monke at S. Gregoryes appoyntment, so as twise we haue had communication & par­ticipation of this Romayn faith so higlie cō ­mended by S. Paul and S. Hierome.

[Page 67]Secondlie it is to be noted that the things most praysed in the Roman fayth by S. Hie­rome are two poyntes most scorned at by our Protestants, to wit simplicitie in belee­uing without disputing or curiouslie asking reasons, and secondly promptenes of deuo­tion in visiting Churches, martyrs Sepul­chers and the like: for which two poynts of simplicitie in beleeuing and deuotion S. Hie­rome is of opinion that S. Paul did so spe­ciallie commend the Romanes in his dayes; which poynts being so farre different from the iudgments and affections of the prote­stants of our dayes, no maruaile though Syr F. heere would not let vs see S. Hieromes whole sentence, but a peece only cut out, as he thought best, for his purpose, and yet this peece also not truly nor faithfullie aleadged, as now shal be shewed.

And this is one principal poynt to be con­sidered 6 (gentle reader) for thy instruction in these men [...] manner of dealing how many wayes the poore shifting knight hath altered this litle poore latyn sentence of S. Hierome to make it sound somwhat to his purpose,S. Hieromes text abu [...]ed. to wit, Tota Ecclesia instar tonitrui reboat Amen. Ad­ding first of his owne the two first words, Tota Ecclesia, which are not in S. Hierome, & then changing ad similitudinem (which S. Hie­rome vseth) into instar, and leauing out the word caelestis, found in S. Hierome and lastlie seperating and cutting of the whole from the precedent and consequent sentence, and [Page] true sense as hath byn shewed, so as in six words foure at least haue receyued altera­tion or imposture. And yet we know that both in reason and custome when any sen­tence is aleadged first in latyn and then in English as this is by him, the former at least shou [...]d be exact, and in the Authors owne words, but necessitie giueth this libertie to Syr F. to clip and cut, tryfle and cauil as he may; let vs see yet further.

7 There foloweth in his reply another text aleadged out of S. Augustin to the same pur­pose for prouing publike Churche seruice to be in vulgar tongues,Psalm. [...]. expounding these words of the Psalme. Beatus populus q [...] intell [...]g [...]t iubilationem, August. sup. psalm. 99. which words our K. interpreteth thus: Blessed is the people that vnderstandeth the ioy­ful song.

8 And further addeth out of thesame Fa­ther this exhortation vpon thesame woords.S. Augustines vvordes fal­sely applied. Cur [...]amus ergò ad hanc beatitudinem, intelligamus iubilati [...]nem, non èam sine intellectu fundamus. Let vs runne to this blessednes, let vs vnderstand this iubilation, let vs not power it out with­out vnderstanding. All which being meant most playnlie of inward vnderstanding and feeling of blessed [...]oy within our hartes, this grosse interpreter wil needs transferre all to outward crying singing and chaunting of Geneua Psalmes in their Churches, and for this cause translateth falsely the words, intel­ligamus iubilationem non eam sine intellectu funda­mus. Let vs vnderstand the song, let vs not sing it [Page 68] without vnderstading, as though al [...] were meant by singing in vulgare knowne tongues for that the word vnderstanding is so often repea­ted, which yet is as [...]arre of from S. Augus­tynes? true meaning and whole drifte in that place, as if the knig [...]t would inferre also that because he vseth the word Curramus let vs run­ne, he would defend therby running games in England, or running at bazes or prison barres in Churcheyards as yong people are wont to do, for that the holy Father in that place handling these words of the Psalm. 99.August. Ibid [...] initio. Iubilate Deo vniuersa terra, let the whole earth reioyce to God, sa [...]th first. Non ho [...]ta [...]ur velut aliquem vnum angulum terrae, &c. The spirit of God doth not exhort any one corner of the world, or any one habitation or congregation of men, to Iubilate and re­ioyce vnto him, but for that he knoweth that he hath sowed his benediction euery where▪ he requires this iu­bilation euery where also. These are S. Augustines words, and let the reader iudge whether these be spoken of any corporal singing psalmes or saying seruice in particuler Churches and con­gregations or rather of inward iubilation of spirit which S. Augustine, expresly meaneth, and for confirmation therof he alleadgeth also those words before cyted out of an other psalme,Psalm. [...]. Beatus populus, qui intelligit iubilationem. Happie is the people that vnderstandeth this Iubilation, which word (vnderstandeth) for that our heretyke buildeth all his argument theron) S. Hierome enterpreteth nouit iubilationem happy is the people that knoweth Iubilation,S. Hieron. in Psal. [...]. [Page] or as our ordinary latyn edition hath, Scit iu­bilationem knoweth or feeleth Iubilation, which later sense also S. Augustine himself fo­loweth in other places reading Sciens iubilationē All which senses the Greeke and Hebrue words do beare, that is to say, Happie is that people of God which feeleth inward comfort and spi­ritual iubilation of hart in his seruice. Which being so, most fondlie and childishlie is this text brought in by S^r. F. to proue external singing of psalmes in vulgar languages quite cōtrarie to S. Augustines meaning, words, and sence, as now I shal more particulerlie declare out of two playne places of thesaid Father.

9 The first is in the very same treatise alead­ged by our aduersary which yf as he could not but see it,S. Augustine explica [...]eth himself. so had he vttered, or not fraudu­lentlie concealed thesame the question had byn out of doubt.S. Aug. in Psalm. 9 [...]. For thus sayth S. Augustine. Qui iubilat, non verba dicit, sed sonus quidam est laetinae sine verbis: v [...]x est enim animi diffusi laetitia expri­mentis, quantum potest affectum, non sensum compre­hendentis. ‘He that doth Iubilate (or hath this Iubilation meant by the Prophet) doth not vtter any words, for it is a certayne sound of inward ioy without words: it is, a voyce of our mynd ful of Ioy, and expressing her affe­ction as much as she can but not attayning to expresse the ful inward feeling therof.’

Thus doth S. Augustine explicate himselfe▪ And in an other place more playnlie yet,A [...]g. in Psal. [...]. asking this question quid est intelligas iubilationē ▪ what is meāt by the Prophet when he willeth [Page 69] thee to vnderstand iubilation? and then ans­wereth; vt scias vnde gaudeas quod verbis explicare non possis that thou maist know wherof to re­ioyse without being able to expresse thesame in words.

Lo heere the truth of these good fellowes 10 that alleadge vs Doctors so flatlie against their owne words and meaning.About the vvords of S. Paul. 1. Cor. 14. to speake in a knovve [...] tonge. And this were sufficient to end this controuersie but that the K^t. hath a florish more out of S. Paul who most diuinely (sayth he) treateth this matter (in his fa­uour belike) in his first Epistle to the Corinthians & 14. Chapter, And that Ca [...]etan moued by those words of the Apostle thinketh that prayer should be made in vulgar tongues.

To the first it is euident ynough by the place it selfe, that those words of the Apostle make nothing at all for publike seruice, and that the former partes therof are playnlie spoken of prophesying, & exhortations, when christiās did meete in the primitiue Churche,Cypr. epist. ad Pomp. & Qui [...]inum. Aug lib. 2. d [...] bapt. cap [...]. Basil. quest. breuite [...] ex [...]l. q. 27 [...]. Amb in 1. Cor. 1 [...]. which exhortations to the people he would haue in a knowne language, which all did vn­derstand, & not in forayne peregryne tongues which many did speake by gifte of the holy ghost. And so do enterpret this place S. Cyprian S. Augustine, S. Basil, S. Ambrose and diuers other Fathers.

And in the later part of the Apostles words 11 where he speaketh of praying and singing that it should not be in a peregryne tongue he can­not be vnderstood to speake or meane of pu­blike seruice in the Churche, for that this pu­blike [Page] seruice was already in the greeke tōgue at Corinth whether he wrote this Epistle and in no peregrine or strāge language but such as was vnderstood by all (all being Grecians) & consequentlie it had byn impertinēt in S. Paul to persuade that it should be in a knowne lan­guage,S. Paules true meaning. Paul Eph 5. vers. 20. wherfore his meaning was of certayne spiritual songs which diuers inspired by the holy ghost in the Primitiue Churche did breake foorth into ex tempore in their meetings of which S. Paul sayth to the Ephesians. Be not drunken with wyne which leadeth to vncleanes, but be f [...]l of the holy ghost speaking one to another in psalmes and hymnes, and spiritual songes, singing and reioy­cing in your hartes to Christ. Col. 3. vers. 16 And agayne to the Colossians: Singing in your harts to God by his grace in Psalmes and hymnes and spiritual songes.

These songs therfore comming of aboun­dance of the holy Ghost and o [...] that inward Iubilation of hart before spoken of in the primitiue Churche, it fel out that some Chri­stians by the gifte of tongues, very ordinarily in those dayes, did vtter sometymes these their affections in strange languages, as in the Arabian, Persian, and other like tongues, which neyther thēselues perhaps, nor others did alwayes vnderstand, and sometymes others interpreting by thesame gi [...]e of ton­gues, that which they spake without vnder­standing, [...]ift of tōges to the first Christians. as is playne by the text of S. Paule. who therfore for the common consolation of all exhorteth them, to vtter theire [...]eeling and suggestions of the holy Ghost, rather in [Page 70] a knowne tongue, then in externe languages; and this of priuate meetings and spiritual re­ioycing of those first Christians amōg them­selues.

But as for publike prayer, and reading of 12 scriptures in the Churche who knoweth not that they were read in the Hebrew tongue in the Churches, and congregations of Iury, and in the Greeke tongue among the Corin­thians and other Grecyans and east Chur­ches, & in Latyn among the Romanes as be­fore hath byn shewed, and no probabilitie that S. Paul did euer mislike the same, & con­sequentlie could not meane therof in this Epistle.

And though Caietan should haue any other 13 singular interpretation or illatiō of his owne in his commentarie vpon this place, it is farre from the meaning of the Apostle, as yow haue seene and different from the exposition and sense of ancient Fathers whom we are to follow before him yet in the very begin­ning of the same commentarie he hath these words,Caet. comēt. in cap. 14. 1. Cor. vniuersus textus iste loquitur propriè de do­nis linguarum & prophetiae, vt tractando textus ipse testatur. ‘All this text doth speake properlie of the giftes of tongues and prophesying as the text it selfe in handling doth testifie, which if it be true, then can nothing for publike ser­uice in vulgar tongues be proued out of it: & thus much of this.’

OF THE FOVRTH AND fift blessings affirmed to haue byn brought in by Protestantes, which are, aboundance of good woorkes, & freedome from persecu­tion. CAP. X.

1 HAVING byn ouer long in the exami­nation of the former three blessings,The fourth blessing good lyfe of Protestants. I meane to be much shorter in the rest wher­fore there foloweth the fourth blessing which Syr F. bringeth in, as peculiar to protestants (for otherwise it were no blessing obteyned by change of religion) which is the rare and singular good lyfe of Protestāts, called by this blessing bringer,Pag. 18. their exercise in workes of true pietye, and in his marginal note and ranke of blessings, The exercise of true Holinesse, which is a strāge blessing, if a man consider wel of it, that the exercise of good works, and true ho­lynes was brought in onlie or principallie by Protestants of our dayes, for first the expe­rience of the whole world wil deny it, and cry out against it, and secondlie there best frends, who speake most of their faith wil and do renounce their woorks as for example, Erasmus among other,Fox in the lyfe of Bilney and other first prote­stants. Erasmi. Ep. ad Carth. apud Surium an. 1 [...]6. whom Fox euery where would nedes make their first founder and fauourer though himself deny and de­test them after experience had of their liues, saith thus: Neminem vidi meliorem, deteriores omnes. I neuer saw any made better in lyfe, by this [Page 71] new religion, but all worse. And Luther him­selfe vpon his owne tryal,Luth Po [...]i [...]. sup. Dom. [...]. Aduent. both wrote and printed: Mundus fit quotidiè deterior, sunt nunc ho­mines magis immodesti, indisciplinati, multoque dete­riores quam fuerunt in Papatu. The world is day­lie worse, men are now more immodest, more indisciplinable, and a great deale worse then they weare vnder the Popedome. And Auri­faber,Aurif de di­ctis Luth. Pag. 623. one of his cheife schollers testifieth these woords of him, that he was often wont to say, Post reuelatum Euangelium, virtus est occ [...]sa, iustitia oppressa, temperantia ligata, deuotio pulsa, ne­quitia facta quotidiana. Since the ghospel was reuealed, vertue of lyfe is slayne, iustice is op­pressed, temperance is bound, deuotion is put to flight, wickednes is daylie increased: Thus said these men in the very primitiue Churche of their new ghospel, and what our men especially in England may say now of this ar­gument I leaue it to common experience to iudge.

And Syr F. least he should goe to farre in 2 this matter of good workes saith:Tvvo cau­tions of the K. against good vvor­kes. we must take heed to auoid two extremities. The first proud presumption before God, that we put no opinion of merit in our workes, secondlie that before men we auoid all hypocritical ostentation. Lo heere good reader, two great peryls of good workes layd before thee, but no vtilityes remēbred. Trulie I had thought, when I heard him talke of two extremityes, that as the one was to attribute to much to good workes, so the other should haue byn to [Page] attribute to litle, but both are, cautiōs against good workes, and therfore I maruaile how they may be called extremities,Absurdity. seing they may be both in one and the selfe same man, to wit, presumpsion & hipocrisy, which yet is against the nature of extremes, yf S. F. remember wel his Sophistry learned in Oxford.

3 But marke I pray yow the difference of spirit and Doctrine in these men from holy Scripture, which euery where encorageth vs exceedingly with the merit and reward of good workes,Math. 5. Rom 2. 7. Cor; & 9. Coloss 1 1. Timoth 2. Iam 2. 2. Pet. 1. 2. Pet. 1. as also that they should shine before men, wheras our Protestāts are careful to warne vs, that they are perilons things, to engender presumption; and ostentation. Wher-vnto their Father Luther addeth fur­ther that they are also pernicious to saluatiō, which yf yow ponder wel is but a cold ex­hortation to the exercise of good workes,Luth. [...]om. 2. [...]ol 322 & rom 5 in Gal cap. 4. fol. 382.400. for that yf not only they haue no merite, but are perilous also for presumption and hypocrisie, yea pernicious sometymes to saluation, and that on the other syde our corrupt nature & sensualitie flveth them and swayeth to the contrarie of her owne inward instinct, who wil leese his pleasure to labour in them? and consequently it is no maruaile, though these fruits grow so thinly vpon protestants trees, as their neighbors (I weene) wil beare them witnesse in England.

4 And as for Syr F. himselfe, notwithstan­ding his protestatiō afterward, that he would be loath to yeild to any Papist whatsoeuer in [Page 72] this poynt of good workes (seing it is a pe­culiar blessing of his people as yow see) yet I do not heare nor vnderstand that this bles­sing doth so abound in him for the practise,Syr F. not so famous for good vvor­kes as he vvould seeme. as that his tenants, and neighbours wil be his witnesses thervnto, especiallie if the common fame be true of certayne things which heere I wil not name for christian modestie sake, & for respect eyther of himselfe, or his familie, or of both, though he in his owne person litle sheweth to deserue that respect, not hauing held the same with others of greater mo­ment, yea princes themselues; but I shal deale more modestlie with him, and let him goe free from further [...]ouch at this tyme, but for the matter it selfe concerning him and his in general for good lyfe and workes (excepting in particuler those that may be excepted) I may cōclude as S. Augustine did a litle before about the Churche that as it is most insolent madnesse to dispute against that which the whole Churche doth pract [...]se, so to auouch that of Pro­testants liues, and good works wherof all countryes and nations do see and proue the contrarie, and their owne authors also do cōfesse (as hath byn shewed) is litle lesse mad­nesse.

And with this I might end this poore pro­testant blessing of good works (especially seeing that after againe I am to treat of the same subiect) but that our knight wil needs alleadge S. Bernard for his former caution against the merit of good workes in these [Page] words;Cap. 15. S. Bernard abused. Bona opera sunt via regni, non causa regnan­di, which he according to his fashion fraudu­lentlie expoundeth thus; good works are the way wherein we must walke to the king­dome of heauen, but not the cause wherfore we shal obtayne that kingdome, &c.

6 Wherein first yow must note that he vseth heere also his foresaid old shifte, not to quote the place, or book where we may fynd this in S. Bernard, least he should be taken tripping as a litle before, about the other two Fathers S. Hierome, & S. Augustine, yet hauing sought much in S. Bernard at length we fynd the place in the verie end of an excellent treatise he wrote,Catholike doctrine a­bout merites of good vvorkes. De gratia & libero arbitrio, shewing therin how Gods grace doth concurre with mans freewil in all meritorious workes, by stirring vp mans wil to worke with promise of reward, and strengthening him to the per­formance therof by the assistāce of his diuyne grace, in respect wherof, to wit, of the free promise made by God to reward our good workes, (wherto he was not bound) and of the preuenting, and assisting vs by his holie grace to the working of the same, our meri­tes are to be attributed vnto him, as to the first and chiefe efficient cause, and not to our selues, though our concurrance be necessarie thervnto also, and in this sense S. Bernard in the place by our knight aleadged hauing spo­ken much of the merits of good worke [...] wrought in Christ, and by the force of his grace, he concludeth thus: Merita nostra sp [...] [Page 73] quaedam sunt seminaria, Bernar. tra [...]. de gratia & libero arbitrio ad finem. charitatis incentiuae, occultae praedestinationis indicia, futurae felicitatis praesagia, via regninon causa regnandi: Our merites are cer­tayne seedes of hope, inkindlers of charitie, signes of secret predestination, foresages or tokens of our felicitie to come, the way to the kingdome of heauen, but not the cause of our raigning.

Thus sayth he, and that he meaneth heere, by the cause of our raigning the principal ef­ficient cause, and author (which titles are pro­per only to God, and so attributed by all Ca­tholike writers) and not the secōdarie instru­mental meritorious cause, ascribed by vs to good workes, is euident, first by the very next immediate woords folowing in S. Bernard vpon the former,Rom. [...]. ‘Quos iustificauit (sayth he) non quos iustos inuenit, hos & magnificauit; God hath magnifyed and exalted to his kingdome not those whom he found iust of themselues, but whom he by his grace did make iust:’ by which words S. Bernard doth inferre that all the merits of our good workes together with the reward promised to them, do come ori­ginallie, and principally from God, and conse­quentlie both the one and the other are to be ascribed vnto him, as vnto the chiefest cause, though also by our voluntarie concurrance thervnto, when we are moued by God we haue our interest therin, and are trulie said to merit lyfe euerlasting, which S. Bernard doth explicate most excellentlie a litle before in the same place, his wordes are these, ha­uing [Page] spoken first verie largly of good workes;Bernard. ibid. Verum haec (sayth he) cum certum sit diuino in nobi [...] actitar [...] spiritu, De [...] sunt munera, quia verò cum no­strae voluntatis assensu, nostra sunt m [...]rita. ‘Wheras it is certayne that these good workes (by me before mentyoned) are wrought in ys by the spirit of God, they must needs be called the giftes of God, And for that they are done also by the consent of our wil they are our me­rits.’

8 Thus sayth he, and then doth he prosecute the same with a large and learned discourse vpō the words of S. Paul to Timothie, where he sayth, Bonum certaemen certaui, &c. I haue fought a good fight, [...]. Tim. 4. I haue ended my course, I haue kept my fayth, and for the rest, then is layd vp for me a crowne of Iustice, which God the iust iudge shal restore vnto me at that day. Vpon which wordes S. Bernard sayth thus:‘If it be so that the verie wil of doing good in S. Paul (wherof all merit doth depend) was not his owne, but receyued from God, how doth he cal it a croune of Iustice, which he assureth himselfe to be layd vp for him? is it (perhaps) for that whatsoeuer is freelie promised, it may be iustlie, after the promise made requi­red as due debt, &c. he saith further; for that S. Paul beleeued the promiser, he now confi­dentlie exacteth the promise, which promise though it were of mercy, yet now it is to be payd of iustice, &c. For it is iust that God should pay whatsoeuer he oweth, and he oweth whatsoeuer he hath promised, &c. [Page 74] and of this iustice it pleased God to make Paul a partener,Iustitiae Pau­lum Deus voluit habere consortem vt & coronae faceret pro­meritorem. Bern. pag. 1069. to the end he might make him also a deseruer of his crowne, and in this he made him both partener of his iustice and deseruer of his crowne, when he vouchsafed to make him his helper or coadiutor in doing good works, wherunto his crowne is promised, & further he made him his coadiutor, when he made him to consent to his holy wil and motion.’

Lo heere how S. Bernard doth connect & 9 ioyne togeather the operation of God, and cooperation of man in the matter of merit, attributing to God the first and principal motion of grace, mercy, promise, and ina­bling vs to worke, and vnto man that he con­curreth freely by cooperation with, Gods instinct, so as the reward of this worke, which is the Kingdome of heauen yf we respect the first cause which is God, it is mercy, and yf we consider the secondary instrumental cause, which is man, & the promise of God made vnto him, it is called iustice and dew debt, let vs heare S. Augustine in the same matter,Aug. hom. 14. lib 50. ho­miliarum. 2. Tim. 4. and vpon the same words of the Apostle: For the rest (saith the Apostle) there remayneth to me a crowne of iustice, which God the iust iudge shal restore to me at the last day. Behould he saith that God shal restore a crowne vnto him, ergo he is his debter.Aug. in Psal. [...]. And againe in another place: vnde de­bitor? accepit aliquid, &c. ‘Whence is God be­come a debter? hath he receyued any thing, or doth he owe any thing to any man▪ and [Page] yet behould Paul doth hold him for his debter, saying, God shal restore vnto me, &c. what shal he restore vnto thee (Paul) but that which he oweth? whence doth he owe any thing vnto thee? what hast thow giuen vnto him? Truly God hath made himselfe a debter, not by re­ceyuing any thing, but by promising, so as yt may not be said vnto him, restore that which thow hast receyued, but pay that which thow hast promised.’

10 Thus do wryte these holy Fathers, shewing how God becometh debiter to the merits of our good works not by their owne nature, but by his owne voluntary free promise and mercy, yet deny they not the truth of this me­rit nor blaspheme yt as our fōd K. doth, saying that it is a proud presumption before God to put any opinion of merit to our works: Pag. 19. but yow haue heard out of the Fathers, how they do not only put opinion of merit in good works, but do plainly affirme and teach yt, and that it is dew debt, supposing Gods promise made to reward them: Wherof also it followeth, that albeit the saying of S. Bernard be most true in the sense alleadged, that our merits be the way to the Kingdome of heauen, but not the cause, speaking of the first and principal cause, yet were those words not truly, but frandulently translated by our K. that they are not the cause, wherfore we shal obtayne the Kingdome, as though they were no cause at all, which is false and absurd, for that noe man can deny them to be the instrumental meritorious causes of ob­tayning [Page 75] heauen, seing God hath promised heauen as a reward vnto them, and hauing promised is bound in iustice to preforme the same, as now yow haue heard by the Fathers declared. And so much of this matter for this place.

The fift beatitude which this blessing-maker 11 bringeth is freedome from persecution, The 5. bles­sing free­dome from persecution. and as he calleth them halcyon dayes, when he sayth: The litle barke of Christ Iesus before tossed with the waues and stormes of furious and bloudy presecution hath found now some repose and rest. Pag. 20. About which blessing I would aske the K. certayne que­stions therby to come to the truth of the matter & auoyd impostures: and first I would aske him, whether this freedome from persecution be common to all, or to some only, that is to protestants: and then whether this be passiue or actiue in them: that is whether they stand out free in them-selues or do suffer other men also to be free from persecutiō, for yf it be not a common blessing to all but particular to themselues, then can yt not be called a bles­sing of the land, but of some part within the land. And againe yf it be passiue only and en­ioyned by them-selues and not actiue, so as they procure nor yeild not the same freedome to others, where they may, then is it absurdly called a blessing or benediction, for that theeues also, and the worst men of the world among them-selues, or to others of their crew do not vse persecution:Matth. 12. Marc. 3. Luc. 11. nay diuels also (as Christ signifieth) do not fight one against [Page] another, and yet that this is not true in prote­stants but that they persecute one another also where they fal to difference of opinions is a thing so euident as needeth no proof and the examples alleadged by me before out of all the sects of Germany, Switzerland and other countreys,Kēnit. epist. ad Io. Georg. Elect. Bran­deburg. and namely that out of Kemnitius, do euidently cōuince yt with infinite proofes, for that none of them getting the vpper hand in any place doth permit the other sect be yt neuer so brotherly to subsist with yt, but dry­ueth them out, euen the ridged Lutherans the soft, and these the other wheresoeuer they preuayle, as the Puritans also in Geneua, Hollād, Scotland, France, do not suffer any one congre­gation of softer Caluinists or English Protestāts to stand with them, and on the contrary side, whether our English protestants haue suffered their brethren Puritans to liue in England without persecution or noe, or whether they haue had halcyon or halter dayes,One side of protestants doth perse­cute the other. these later yeares past vnder Protestants, the hanging of Penry and other of thesame ghospel may te­stifie, as also the many and greeuous com­plaints wrytten by them-selues, & published in print,Lib. 2. of dangerous positions. cap. 10. and registred these later dayes by the Protestāts in their foresaid bookes, where the Puritanes cry out & say among other things.

This land is sore troubled with persecution, there i [...] no place nor being for a faythful Minister of the word, our blood cryeth for reuenge, an inquisition much like that of Spayne is among vs, o lamentable case, o heyno [...] impietie.

[Page 76] Ministers are in worse sorte oppressed now then they were by the Papists in Q. Maries tyme; Compla [...] of persecutiō by Puritanes. besydes who­rish impudency, halter, axe, bands, scourging, & rac­king, our Bishops haue nothing to desend themselues withal: the Clinke, Gatehouse, white Ly [...]n, and the Fle [...]e are their onlie arguments. If I say Hieremy. Ezechiel, &c. were aliue agayne they would be sent to the Marshalsey.

Lo (good reader) these piteous complaynts,12 and many more, do make and poure out one sort of ghospellers against the other, & when their owne ghospel brethrē cry out so much of persecution, what may Catholikes do? and how is this then a peculiar blessing of Prote­stants to be free from persecuting? yet harken to our knight how he freeth all from suffring at their hands, not onlie those of their owne religion,Pag. 21. Sir F. pro­ueth his ovvn men to be vvolues. but also of ours, The wolfe (sayth he) persecuteth the lambe, not the lambe the wolfe; Wel; what of this? this is a certayne sentence true in it selfe, but proueth nothing for your sense, nay rather I might inferre against yow thus: Yow do persecute greuiouslie by your owne brethrens testimony them that be lambes by their profession. Ergo yow are wolues by your owne sentence; but harken yet further, what he sayth also very confidentlie, euen of Catholikes. Freedome from persecution in England;VVastvvord. Pag. 21. Yow shal (sayth he) neuer be able to proue (so farre as I could euer learne) that any one, ey­ther Priest or lay man, learned, or vnlearned, hath in thi [...] land for these fortie yeares, byn put to death, only for being of a contrarie religion.

[Page] 13 Heer I doubt not but all England, wil cry shame to this shameful, and shameles lack of shame, for what chyld in England is so igno­rant of thinges tha [...] passe as he knoweth not this to be a notorious falshood, hauing hard of aboue a hundred Priests put to death for being Priests,See tvvo A­pologyes for the Catho­likes vvith other treati­ses. and for being ordeyned to that function beyond the seas, and for defending the fayth belonging to the function, as by di­uerse treatises written of this matter doth appeare. And if this were not so of the killing of so many men for only religions sake, yet is there no persecution but death? wil Syr F. say that his Protestants do not persecute, for that they kil not all that be different from them in religion?Persecution against Ca­tholikes. doth he not heare and see and know the numbers of them that be daylie apprehen­ded, imprisoned, arraigned, and condemned in their goods, and liberties for standing in their fathers fayth and resisting protestants nouelties, and innouations? & is this no perse­cution? Is this the blessed freedome which protestants ghospel hath brought in? Surelie I wil end, and shut vp this absurditie with those wordes of S. Augustine against Iulian the famous heretike.Aug. contr. Iul. lib. 1. c. 7. Si nesciens hoc dixisti, cur non miseram respuis imperitiam? si sciens, cur non sa­crilegam deponis audaciam? If thow hast said this by ignorance, why dost thow not reiect thy miserable vnskilfulnes, if wittinglie, why doest thou not leaue of so impious audacitie? and so much of this.

OF THE OTHER FIVE imagined blessings that remayne, to wit, deliuerance from exactions, long peace, po­wer in forrayne countryes, wealth of the land, and multitude of subiects increased seauenfold. CAP. XI.

BESYDES the blessings hitherto recyted 1 (which haue byn such and so goodlie as yow haue heard discussed) our knight to make vp the number of ten hath added fyue more to wit. Deliuerance from intolerable exactiōs. Long peace at home. Great power abroad in forrayne countryes. VVealth & great riches increased with in the land. And finaly great multitude of subiects sea­uenfold increased aboue that they were at her Maies­ties entrance. Which blessings though the very propounding of them to English eares be so ridiculous, as they need litle examination, and much lesse cōfutatiō, yet for honoring of our knight that is the propounder I shal be forced to say a word or two of each of thē, aduerti­sing the reader first (which yet he wil of him­self obserue,A seditious shift of syr F. especiallie by the last words of this enumeration) that the knight playeth notably the part of Scogan in the treatie of these blessings, running behynd the cloath of state (as often I haue warned before, and shal be forced more often hereafter) and so conioyning her Maiesties gouernment with [Page] his ghospel and change of religion in the prayse and disprayse of that which hath en­sued, as if they could not possibly be seuered in the effectes of blessings and cursings therof proceeding, which poynt I hold to be most false and flattering, assuring my selfe, & pre­suming also, that any man of iudgement and discretion wil be of my opinion that what­soeuer good effectes haue come to our com­mon wealth by her Maiesties gouernment, or rare partes of Princelie commendations,A note to be diligently obserued. and which truelie may be termed blessings, might haue byn as great as all these, or farre greater vnder Catholike religion, and espe­ciallie in her Maiestie if it had pleased al­mightie God to haue blessed her and the re­alme with the continuance therof, and con­trariwyse whatsoeuer cursings and calami­ties on the contrarie syde haue ensued, or may ensue herafter by the change of religion these are proper effectes, and necessary consequēts of the new ghospel, and not of any defect in her Maiesties gouernment and this foundatiō being presupposed in all that I shal say, let vs passe on to examine in a word or two, the most ridiculous vanitie of these fiue blessings folowing which he calleth corporal, accomp­ting his former spiritual.

2 For the first of them which is deliuerāce from intolerable exactions, [...]. Blessing, deliuerance from exa­ctions. if he meane it of the realme in general, as his marginal note may seeme to importe (which often yet disagreeth in sense from his text) let the Escheker books be com­pared [Page 79] of the tributes, payments, contribu­tions, and exactions, that were vsed in Englād in former dayes, before this new ghospel came in, and since, I meane of the summes that were payd in old tymes, when Catholike re­ligion bare rule, and protestants were not knowne, & those that later Princes by reason of troubles, warres, suspicions, and other like occasions rysing especially by difference in religion, haue byn forced to take of their sub­iects since the yeare of Christ 1530. or there about, at what tyme K. Henrie began vpon the aduise, & incitation of Cranmer, Crom­wel, and other Protestants to breake with the Pope, and churche of Rome, let these summes I say be cōferred, and then our knight if he be a good Auditor or Eschequer man, wil for very shame stryke out this blessing and men­tyon it no more.

But yf he meane this blessing especiallie or 3 principallie of our Clergie men this day in England for that they pay nothing now to the Pope, as in the texte, and prosecution of this blessing is set downe, then let the wealth and ease of the old and new Clergie be compared togither, or rather the pouertie and beggerie of the one with the honor, and splendor of the other, and so this controuersie wil quicklie be decyded, and S.F. beaten from this first cor­poral blessing, of his new Cleargie, to a Spi­ritual, which is,Matth. [...]. Beati pauperes spiritu, blessed are the poore in spirit, for in body and purse they are already miserable as them-selues [Page] euery where complayne,The pouertie and myserie of the pro­testāt clear­gie. & none more grie­uously or more spitefullie in secret, as before hath byn touched, then his champion O.E. alleaging these reasons, that the most of them hauing much to pay both to Prince & Patron in steed of the Pope, and litle to receyue (the gleebe lands of their benefices being com­monlie swept to their hands) and their charge of women and children so great, as the pa­rishes do commonlie feele, when they dy, their beggerie must needs be intollerable; wheras on the other syde in Catholyke Coun­tryes, yf they contribute any thing to the Pope as to their head for better maintenance of his state and gouerment of the whole Churche, it is neyther so great a matter, and commonlie, [...]t out of the greater benefices, that cā better beare it, and in recompence of that agayne he defendeth them against the intrusion or vsur­pation of seculer men vpō their liuings, which importeth them much more (as by experience of Catholyke Countryes and Kyngdomes is seene) then is the contribution they make to Rome, though it were so great and greuous, as our K. maketh it in K. Henrie the 3. his [...]yme, alleaging a certayne complaynt of our English Churche to Pope Innocentius 4. in a ge­neral Councel at Lions an. 1245. against his collectors & officers in England, which being taken out of Iohn Fox) whom this man yet wil not name) maketh no more against the Popes Authoritie,A calumnia­tion of Ihon Fox. act. & [...]on. Pag. 241.242. &c. nor yet conuinceth him of abuse that way, then yf at this day the same [Page 80] complaynt should be made by the Churche of Spayne (as diuers tymes it is) against the lyke collectors or officers there, or when any com­plaint is made in England of any of her Ma^ties. officers that abuse themselues in their colle­ctions for couetousnes vpon the Clergie at this day, wherof I presuppose there would not want complaints, if all Ministers should be willed to vtter their greifes therin.

And what then doth Syr F. and Fox vrge 4 so much against the Pope the complaynt of some in England against his officers at that tyme,VVhy Pope Innocentius required a collection of mony for recouering the holy land. when the publike necessitie of christen­dome oppressed by Turkes and Saracens in­forced Pope Innocentius, (as general Father of all) to lay some contribution vpon the cleargie of England, and other countryes for defence therof, to which effect also in the ve­ry same councel of Lions he had appoynted and declared king Lewes of France for Su­preme general, and yet was not the summe exacted such nor so great, but that more mo­ney in these our dayes hath byn sent out of the realme in one yeare by these mēnes liking and good approbation for defence of heresie and rebellion in France, Flanders, Scotland, and other countryes, thē was in this, & many other tymes in those dayes for maintenance of the whole Churche and Christianitie, and yet cōplayneth not our knight of this, which subiects now feele, for that it is present, but of the other past and gone which they feele not, wherby is seene his indifferencie, & that [Page] they seek nothing but matter of complay [...] and cauilling against the Pope and h [...] doings.

5 As for long peace which is an other bles­sing of his (both sweet & profitable) as he ter­meth it, [...]. blessing, long peace. I know not what or why I should answere, seing Aristotle teacheth that to go about to proue or improue by reason [...] that which is open and manifest to our sen­ses, is to wearie reason, and offer iniurie to sense: who seeth not therfore what hath passed in England since protestant religion first en­tred in K. Henryes dayes? for if we talke o [...] domestical styrres, and tumultes among our people, we haue had more within these 70. yeares to wit from the one or two and twen­tith of K. Henryes raigne downwards vnder him, and his three children (respecting reli­giō only) then in a thousand before his dayes and more then in many ages for any cause whatsoeuer, setting a syde the contention for the crowne betweene the two houses o [...] Yorke and Lancaster, which cannot go by reason in this accompt for that it was a par­ticular quarrel of certayne Princes of the bloud royal, not rysing of any reason of state or gouernment at home; and if in the tyme of her Maiesties raigne there hath byn lesse actual home warre, then in her Fathers, bro­thers and sisters tyme, for matters of religion, much may be attributed to her owne mode­ration, especiallie at the beginning in not yeilding to the furious humors of some hoate [Page 81] sectaries, that would easely haue put all in combustion had not other counsel bene folo­wed to transfer the fyre rather to other mens houses, then to haue it in her owne, but the most especial part in this may trulie be geuen to the mylde and bearing natures of Catho­likes that haue passed so many yeares vnder the heauie yoke of persecution rather with muttering then mouing,Patience of Catholykes. and yet what peace we may truelie be said to haue at home when such diuision of harts iudgments, and wils is discouered, as this knight in this very en­counter doth affirme, I cannot determyne, but do leaue it to other men, and himselfe also to consider.

But as for forayne warres vnder her Maie­sties 6 raigne (whom most this fleering knight would flatter in this behalfe) I would aske but himselfe; hath it not bene almost perpe­tual with all our neighbours round about vs at one tyme or other, and that for religion it selfe, which this man braggeth to haue brought sweet peace? haue not our armes byn seene in France for many yeares together against diuers kings therof for the same quarrel,Foraine vva [...]res. let Newhauen speake, by vs held, if the knight wil not answere, let Lithe also in Scotland tel vs, if our armes were there a­gainst their lawful Prince in fauour of here­sie, and as for Spayne, and Burgundie our el­dest and surest allies in tymes past, I thinke no denyall can be made but with greater im­pudency then this brag of peace is asserted? [Page] and now what great treasures haue bene sp [...] in those continual forayne warres? wha [...] numbers of men consumed both by sea and land in this action for maintenance of thi [...] cursed new Pandora (so is heresie termed by old Irenaeus) it is hard to count, [...]enzus li. 2. cap. 19. & 53. but easie to ghesse, and yet telleth vs this man of his long sweet, and profitable peace, as though warres maintayned in Holland, Zealand, Ireland, France, Spayne, Portugal, Indies, and other places by English armes, English money, En­glish blood, and all for maintenance of Ge­neua religion, were no warres, but all peace, all sweetnes, all profit, all felicitie: wherfore to obey Aristotle, and not to reason any fur­ther when sense conuinceth so notorious a flatterie, and vntruth, I wil say no more hereof.

7 There ensueth the eyght (and this no smal blessing as this knight sayth) of power in foraine countryes, [...]. Blessing of povver in forrayne countryes. which what it may be (we hauing no one foote of our owne beyond the seas since Calis by heretical treason was lost.) I do not wel see, and yf we compare it with the great & large prouinces we had before vnder Catholike Religion, and especiallie with the change of our old mighty and honorable allyes, and confederated Princes to our new gotten frends, we shal soone discouer the fayntnes and fondnes of this blessing, which is seene also by the qualitie of those persons, and their cause, which our K. braggeth to haue had their refuge in England vnder a womans [Page 81] gouernment out of France, Flanders, Sweth­land, Scotland, and other countryes, who yf they haue bene none commonlie but open re­bels to their true and lawful Princes, & their cause heresy or Atheisme, then hath their re­fuge to England, (as also the Turkes fami­liarity wherof this prophane K^t. vaunteth by name) bene certayne effectes of the new ghospel litle honorable to our country or her Ma^tie. though by necessarie consequence of a course thrust vpon her, she hath bene en­forced to entertayne them, whom otherwise of her most honorable and princelie disposi­tion she could not but contemne, and in her hart detest. And so much of them not worthy the memory.

Next this cometh the nynth blessing which 8 is (as he sayth) great wealth of the land encreased by this change of religion, Blessing. vvealth of the land. Pag. 27. much riches, plentie, and aboun­dance, such as hath not lightlie bene knowne before. Wherabout I must tel our K^t. first that it shal be reason that in this poynt we stand not only to his relation, but that we aske, our people of England them-selues, what they feele at home in their countryes, and not what pleaseth him in his chamber to imagin, and to set downe [...]t home with his pen, sitting more at ease perhaps then many others especiallie since the match with the ritche widdow,Hann [...] [...] who hath eased wel the blow receyued before by the [...]urchasing Yeoens-baron,Yeoens. & repayred much he ruinous walles of his Cadburie Ierusalem.

And trulie where this so blessed & aboun­dant 8 [Page] encrease of riches should ly in particular, which this our K. so greatlie boasteth of, I do not see, for yf we consider the nobilitie and gentrie of our Land at this day, and compare them with that wealth, which was wont to be in former tymes,Old & nevv riches of our nobilitie. I meane, power with power, riches with riches, multitude of ser­uāts, with multitude of seruāts house-keeping with house-keeping, and other such like effe­ctes of wealth and riches, I doubt me much how S. F. can verifie this blessing.

9 And for him-selfe, though I wil not enter to feele his purse, yet for so much as publike fame telleth, I may say without slaunder, that hauing sold all, or the most parte of his owne landes, and spent his goods vpon enterteyn­ment of Ministers, or other like ministerial minions, he may better brag of good fellow­ship and liberalitie, then of great blessing of riches, and in the same case take I the most part of his fellow ghospelling knightes to be, notwithstanding their daylie feeding vpon Catholikes goodes, and that their Almes ex­tend not to buyld Monasteries, Colledges, Churches, or hospitals, as their Ancestors did before them that were of an other religion, so as to the nobilitie and gentry of our land the participation of this great blessing seemeth to be but litle.

10 And as for the commonalty, we ought (as I said) to heare them-selues speake in their owne case,VVealth of the commo­naltie. and not this seelie procter only, which intrudeth him-selfe, without proxie or [Page 82] commission, and perhaps also not so wel in­formed in the case as he might be, or not so faythful in relating, as were conuenient: for sure I am this cannot be denyed that when her Ma^ti•s. tributes, and other duetyes are to be exacted of the cōmon people (though other­wayes they pay them willingly to their po­wer) yet heare I great difficulties and com­plaintes of penurie, and where then consisteth this extraordinarie blessing of so great riches, plentie, and aboundance brought in by change of religion? which yet is so exceeding great by this mānes vaunt as it is able & ready to susteyne such voluntarie warres, Ibid. Pag. [...]7. as honorable respects hau moued vs to vndertake. So are his words, and con­sider heere (discreete reader) the wit of our newe councelor, which maketh our warres voluntary vpon wantonnesse of wealth, and not vpon necessitie, as the wysest Princes are wont to pretend, when they demaund helpes of their subiectes. Moreouer as this K. is lauish in bragging of riches and voluntarie warres, so is his boasting, playnlie Thrasonical when he talketh of his owne going, and assi­stance to the same warres. For in his Epistle of his wach-word to the Reader he telleth him verie seriouslie, & with big wordes, that to himselfe he hath set downe this law, Thrasonical boasting. that shal neuer be repealed that if his wealth were millions; if he could bring thousands of fighting handēs to the feild; yf his lyfe were ten thousand liues, his wealth, his strength, his lyfe and all should goe to be spent, hazarded, and ended, against that Antichrist of Rome, [Page] and the ambitious tyrant of Spayne, &c. And that with confidence, boldnes, and assurance of the goodnes of his cause, he and his fellowes with hart and hand wil be prest and ready to take their places, and to marche in the feild, and their to set forward with a swift foot against these enemies, &c.

11 Did euer glorious Thraso vpon the stage speak bigger wordes then these? and yet I do not heare that the K. in fact, is so great a kil-kow, as heere he maketh him-selfe, nor yet that in such warres as haue byn offred vo­luntarie, or inuoluntarie, hath he aduentu­red any one lyfe, or brought any one troop of fighting handes to the feild, nor hath byn so swyft of foot, as he is in wordes, but rather hath bene content to look on whiles others marched, and to sit at home with his Ministers whiles other men went to fight, and conse­quentlie that these wordes and wishes are farre greater then his actes, and gestes. And so much of this blessing.

12 Wherfore now to come to the last blessing, which is multitude of people,The 10. bles­sing encrease of people. encreased mightilie (as he sayth) since her Ma^ties. first en­trance to the crowne (a great blessing of God (sayth he) powred vpon this land, which God at the least hath seauen-fold encreased, to the number that at her entrance she found. Pag. 27. If I should stand with this computist about the precise number of seauen-fold encreased, and aske him how he knoweth it? or who wil beleeue it? or how probable it is, that the people of Englād should be seauen tymes as many now as they were [Page 83] fortie yeares agoe, I should (I thinke) pose him hardlie, and proue him (perhaps) no lesse la­uish in this, then in the former, but yet sup­posing it were, or be so, how can this bene­diction (so poore a one at it is) be attributed as peculiar to his new ghospel, seing that, other religions engender also besyds Prote­stants. And for example, let vs imagine that Catholike religion had endured stil in En­gland for these later 40. yeares, or that the Iewes or Turkes religion had byn in steed therof, would not the people haue encreased also vnder them thinke yow? yea much more vnder the later, for that they professe Poligamy and the multitude of many wyues, and yet were it much simplicitie to say that this en­crease of Children were a special blessing of their religion, or testimonie of the truth therin conteyned.

And the like may I say of Protestāts, though 13 I confesse that in this poynt of generation I do yeild them some priuiledge aboue Catho­likes for that all sortes do marrie among them, and fewe or none do thinke of those Eunuches commended by Christ who geld them-selues for the Kingdome of heauen, Holy Eunu­ches. Math. 19. but rather all kynd of states, sexes, vocations, offices, and ages as wel fryars, monks, nunes, priests, chaplaynes, mi­nisters and bishops, as all others do fal to ma­ryage, and multiplication, and consequentlie no maruaile if the people haue encreased more then before, but whether this be a bles­sing or a cursing, a benefit or a burthen to the [Page] common wealth, let the Parishes, and Parishioners of England be asked, who by statute are bound to maintayne their brats, when the pa­rents are not able.

14 And with this I wil end this goodly ranke of blessings, which are so vayne and fond as I may say to S.F. for bringing them foorth, as S. Augustine said to Faustus Manicheus about a like foolish narration,Aug. lib. 16. contr. Faust. Manich. cap. 2 [...]. O hominem se cogitantem di­ctorem, sed alium non cogitantem contradictorem, vbi est acumen tuum? Oh fond man that thought onlie how himself might speak (or tel vs bles­sings) and not thinking what an other would answere, where is thy wit? and then goeth forward to aske him further; An in mala causa non posses aliter? sed mala causa te vana loqui coegit, malam verò caeusam habere nemo te co [...]git. Could yow do no otherwise then yow haue done in so euil a cause trulie your euil cause might force yow to speake so vainlie as yow haue done, but no man forced yow to haue an euel cause.

OF THE CONTRARY effectes to blessings, that is to say of cur­singes rather and calamities brought in by change of religion, both spiritual and tem­poral, and how Syr F. and his minister do answer them. CAP. XII.

AFTER the short & ydle defence which 1 our knight in the beginning of this En­counter did shape to the charge of flatterie as before yow haue heard, he entred presentlie, (for better iustification of the vauntes made in [Page] his Wachword) into the enumeration of the former ten blessings which now we haue examined, and after that presentlie shutteth vp his whole Encounter as though all were dispatched, and he had answered all that had byn said, wheras in deed he passeth ouer foure partes of fiue of the warders speach without eyther mentyon therof or answere at all, for that the said warder in his book to shew the vanitie of the knights brag of blessings brought in by change of Catholike religion,4. parts of 5. praeter­mitted by the K in his ansvver. passeth on to declare, the many and manifold myseries, and calamities happened as wel in Englād as in all other countryes round about vs by this fatal change, wherin leauing Germa­ny, Switzerland, Denmarke, Suetia, & other such further partes, where infinite people, haue bene afflicted, slayne, and brought to myserie by warres and garboyles raysed by occasion of this change, he exemplyfieth onlie in Scotlād, Flaunders, France, & Ireland lying next vnto vs, and from thence also passing home to England it self, sayth thus.

2 ‘For to begin with Scotland, and to say no­thing, of the battayles,Pag. [...]. vvard. Sco [...]lands myseries by change of religion. murders, destruction of Countryes, Prouinces, Townes, Cittyes, hou­ses, and particular men, which we haue seene in that realme, within these fortie yeares, that the change of religion hath byn attempted no man can deny but that three Princes, two Queenes, and one King, the mother, daughter and husband, haue bene all brought to their bane by that occasion, besydes the ouerthrow, [Page 85] and change of so many noble houses,Ireland. Flanders▪ France. and li­nages, as Scotishmen can recount, amōg their Hamiltons. Douglasses, Stewardes & others, as also the Irish wil tel of their noble Desmō ­des, and other Peeres destroyed by like occa­sions. But Flanders and France haue no end at all in these accompts, when they begin, they are so many. And all this, as they say (& is euidēt) by the lamētable cōsequence of our chāge of religiō in Englād which drew them after vs, or at leastwayes gaue example, hart, and help to their change and euersion also.’

‘But not to step from England it self, where 3 principallie this blessing-bringer doth vaunt that his blessings are powred out in abound­ance,England. let vs examyne the matter indifferentlie among our selues: we are Englishmen, & we talk to men of the same language and nation, that know our country and condition therof: and many haue seene the change, and knew the state of things therin before the alteratiō, or at leastwyse haue heard therof since by their fathers and grand-fathers, &c.’

Thus said I in the Wardword, and further I passed on to draw all kyndes of blessings to 4 two heads or branches spiritual and tempo­ral,Tvvo kindes of blessings. and examined them both by diuers mea­nes and wayes as before hath bene touched, shewing, that not blessings, but cursings, not felicities but calamities had ensued euery where by this change; and especiallie warres, tumults, and garboyles, as now I haue decla­red. And to all this my declaration which is [Page] somwhat large what replyeth (thinke yow) our defendant knight? heare his wordes for they are verie resolute and eager. If yow had any respect of truth (sayth he) or care of modestie, Pag. 10. VVa [...]vvord. yow would neuer make the true religion we professe the cause of murders, tumultes, & garboyles which tea­cheth dutiful obedience, & condemneth all mutinies, seditions, & rebellions. Thus he fayth, & to this I replie, that if our knight had any considera­tion of his credit, he would neuer for shame affirme this so boldlie without answering to some of the examples alleaged by me against him, as also the asseuerations of his owne best doctors before mentyoned by me about this matter of obedience,En cont. 1 ca. 3.4. & 5. so as hauing both their doctryne, and practise to instruct vs, it is a great impudency to deny it so resolutelie; but let vs go forward.

5 When we came to the diuision mentyoned of spiritual and temporal blessings in particu­ler ensued to England by change of religion,Spiritual blessings be­fore the change. First about spiritual benefits and benedictiōs, the warder setteth downe, how before the change of religiō men had one faith, one beliefe, one forme of seruice, one number of Sacra­ments, one tongue in celebratiō, one sacrifice, one head of the Churche together with the rest of Christendome, and that since the chāge all these things are altered for that English Protestants differ in all those poyntes, or the most, not only from all Catholike king­domes, but also with their owne, and among themselues, to wit first from other new ghos­pellers [Page 86] abroad, for that neyther do we En­g [...]ish protestants agree with any secte of the Lutherans softe or riged, nor with the Zuin­glians or Caluinists of other countryes, nor yet with those of our owne, as appeareth by the Churche of Scotland, and of the presbyte­ries of our Puritans in England, Holland, Zeland, and other places. For proof wherof it shal not need to repeat agayne the whole discourse of the wardword, for that this is suf­ficiētly proued by that I haue alleaged before about the first supposed blessing of vnity.

To all which discourse of disvnion among 6 them set downe by the wardword Syr F. an­swereth no one thing,Syr Francis is mute in matters of most mo­ment, Pag. 13. but only sayth, that it is a cunning tricke to grate so often vpon this diuision, calling some puritans, & some protestants, which he hopeth the Lord of might and mercy, wil turne to the good of the Churche, and direct the hartes of their Churchmen, to see how needful it is to ioyne both hart, & hand together to desend the doctrine of fayth (which they all hold) against the calumniations of slaunders wherwith you, and men of your sort (sayth he) seek to lead the truth of our profession.

Behould heere a substantial defence, consi­sting 7 of foure poyntes, first he would gladly de­ny the difference of names & sectes of Of this dif­ference see before, cap. 6 & 7. puri­tanes & protestāts, as cunningly deuised by vs what shifte wil ye cal this? Then he hopeth in the Lord of mercy they wil agree at length, but when and how?Encount. 1. cap. 3. After that by a parenthesis, he sayth, they all h [...]ld one doctrine of fayth, this how true it is appeareth before out of their owne words [Page] and wrytings alleaged by me to the contrary. And lastly he sayth, these are but slaunders deuised by vs to load the truth of their profession withall. This shift also I leaue to the reader to iudge of what quality it is, as in like manner of what modestie the K. is in denying matters so eui­dently knowne of all, noting by the way, that he dareth not to speak out,Syr F. of vvhat reli­gion? and playnly vtter his mynd about this diuision of puritanes, and protestants in any place of his reply, nor yet to discharge him-selfe of the supition to be one of them, wherwith the warder often charged him, and he hath not denyed it flatly hitherto, nor yet fully confessed it, so as we must hold him eyther for neutral or ambidexter, vntil he declare him-selfe further, though in deed he doth sufficiently manifest him-selfe in this place by so many hems, and hammes, as he vseth in puritanes defence, saying, he trusteth God wil direct them to agree, Pag. 13. and that howsoeuer some dissent hath appeared (as though in deed it were not) yet he doubteth not, but it shal be seene to the world that it is concordia discordia, with a discord that hath concord in yt, &c. Thus he salueth the matter for his tender affection towards the Puritans; wheras his Champion O.E. talking of this di­uision, sayth playnly, and resolutely of them,Infra cap. 15. & 16. (as we shal treate more at large after-ward) that they are no more to be counted of prote­stants society, then the Papists that are of the Popes retinue, and thesame do say the Pu­ritanes of protestants as before out of their owne wordes hath byn declared.

VVHAT THE CHAM­pion Minister O.E. sayth to this matter of cursings, and how absurdly he behaueth him-selfe therin. CAP. XIII.

HOWSOEVER our masked minister 1 hath byn silent in the former blessings, yet wil he shewe him-selfe vocal now, (seing his name consisteth of onely vowels) about this opposite argument of cursings, and with his verbositie he wil supply the K^t. breuitie, wherof we haue spoken and complayned in this chapter, for yow must vnderstand (and yow shal perceaue it by the proof) that this vowel minister is a great vaeun [...] parlar, The manner of O.E. his ansvveriug. and fo­loweth vp and downe the warder, snatching, and snarling at euery word almost he sayth, but without rithme or reason, order or me­thod, shame, or modestie, but only sayth or denyeth as it turneth best to his fancy for the present, thinking the victory to consist in out-talking his aduersary, or contradicting what­soeuer is said, and that he is the conquerer, who hath the last word, true or false, and by this briefe note yow may square him out hereafter in all his answere, as by tryal yow shal see.

First then to begin with that which the 2 warder layeth downe of diuers difficulties al­ready growen in England by change of reli­ligion, [Page] he sayth,Pag. 12. that to this, the state of things them-selues wil answere, lawes are ordinarily exe­cuted, no man is wronged eyther in his person, lands or goods, but he may haue remedy, religion is tru [...] preached, and professed, &c. Yow see how farre, & how plausibly he may runne counter in this poynt,VVhether change of re­ligion be daungerous. and how substantially he proueth that there be no difficultyes by his owne onely de­nyal, but yet marke reader how soone after he putteth a moderation to this general asser­tion, granting some difficultyes, but denying the true cause.

3 Secondly (sayth he) we say that howsoeuer w [...] stand, true religion is neyther the case of trouble nor danger, for if that were so, then were all Princes, & states that professe religion in the same case:Pag. 13. Loe how wyse a man he sheweth himselfe to be; first in his proposition, and then in his infe­rence; his proposition is impertinent, that true religion bringeth no trouble, for we talke of protestant religion, which is foolery for him to presume that we graunt it to be true reli­gion; and besydes this, we talke not of religiō it selfe, but of the changement, which in re­ligion eyther true, or false may breed troubles in any common wealth: but especially the change of Catholike religion hauing bin for so many ages established and so many Princes and Monarches of the Christian woorld pro­fessing the same. His inference that all pro­testant Princes by this reason should be in trouble, is an ydle non consequent, for their cases may be different, their states vnequal, the má­ner [Page 88] of change vnlike, and the proceeding therin, after an other fashion: but yet whether the protestant Princes of Christendome haue gayned or no by the change, or whether they be or may be in more daunger of troubles for separating themselues from the Catholike bo­dy of christian Princes, than yf they had con­tinued in their Fathers religion, I leaue this to wyse men to iudge, and tyme to try.

And this to his first inference, but besydes 4 this he hath a second in the same kynd no lesse foolish that if change of religion bringeth trouble, then all catholike Princes (that haue not changed) must enioy peace, Fond infer­rences. and be out of daunger, which is true, so farre foorth as cōcerneth this daunger arising by change, which is of no smal importance, seing it deuideth not only betweene them, and other Princes of different religion, but betweene them also, and their subiects, and if Catholike Princes haue had their troubles also, or daungers in our dayes, it hath bene eyther for other causes, or for that some in their states haue gone about to alter religion against thesayd Princes willes, as in France, and Scotland, Flanders, and other places, and so consequentlie change of religion (though not intended by them) hath byn the cause of their said troubles and dangers.

But heare out the minister yet further; 5 lastly (sayth he) yf religion now professed were the immediate cause, & original of any trouble like to en­sue, then should not the Papists haue byn the principal meanes to moue warres, & rebellions against the state, [Page] nor the only practisers against her Maiesties person, & safety, as we haue found them to haue byn. Thus he sayth, but how it hangeth together, God knoweth or the diuel that taught him to make this malitious consequence against in­nocent men, for I see not by any Cambridge or Oxford logicke how this illation may be founded, if chaunge of religion bring trou­bles, ergo why do Catholikes moue troubles? he hath brought this kynd of arguyng from the campe (no doubt) for he neuer found it in schoole; And as for the calumniation of this wicked assertion, that Catholikes are the only moouers of warres, and practisers against her Maiesties safety, the instance (I trow) of his late M^r. the Earle of Essex and the Puritanes,Essex attēpt, & the hopes of his follo­vvers. and other hungry protestants that set him a worke (wherin this fellow also perhaps ho­ped to haue no smal share if things had suc­ceeded) doth sufficientlie cleare vs, and so both the forme of his argument, prouing him vn­learned, and the substance and matter disho­nest, I leaue him for this first onset, and come to the second; for thus he goeth forward a­gainst me.

Pag. 14. Yow see (sayth he) this Noddy hath neyther rea­son nor truth in his discourse, &c. he telleth vs that by alteration of Religion in England, Scotland, Ireland, Flanders & France haue tasted of many miseries, tu­multes, calamityes, & desolations, he should haue said of many blessings, & frendly fauours. This needeth no reply if the reader be of any iudgment, for he can see the impudency of the assertion. [Page 89] And then going forward to answere my enu­meratiō of so many battails, murders distruc­tion of so many coūtryes, prouinces, townes, cittyes, noble houses, linages, &c, occasioned by diuersitie, and change of religiō, he answe­reth thus:

As if we had procured all these battayles, murders,6 destructions, The florish of the mini­ster. as if we or our religion were the occa­sion, &c. what a shameles fellow is this to impute the cause o [...] troubles, and warres, vnto vs, that euer auoy­ded warres as much as we could, and offred force to no man, nor euer styrred, but as defendants for safegard of our lyues; are lambes the cause of the cruelty of wol­ues? All these big wordes, are but arguments of the Noddyes distracted mynd, &c.

Lo (reader) what a manner of answering this is, and how many books might be made in this kynd of wryting? wherfore leauing this, let vs come to the matter of diuision in religion.

Where I say that before this alteration of 7 religion by Luther, there was vnity among Catholikes, to wit one God adored through­out all christendome, one faith and beleefe, one forme of seruice, one number of Sacra­mēt, one tongue in celebration, one sacrifice, one head of the Churche, &c. and that now [...]ll is deuided,O E. dam­neth all his ancestors. he answereth first, that to speake [...]uly the most part of Christians in those dayes lyued [...]ithout all knowledge of God, or of Christ Iesus hauing [...]thing of Christianity, but the very name, and the [...]tward Sacrament of Baptisme. So that he yeil­ [...]eth not to them the inward vertue of Bap­tisme, [Page] nor the true beleefe of any one article of the creed before Luther rose which after he repeateth agayne in expresse, wordes say­ing, they vnderstood not any one article of the fayth.

Pag 17.What wil yow say to this man, that ma­keth all his ancestors for so many hundred yeares together, and the ancestors also of her Maiestie, her father, grandfather, and the rest meere infidels, and christians only in name, and that they vnderstood no one article of christiā fayth. Were not this fellow worthier to be cuggelled then disputed withal? & his tongue rather to be putted out▪ then his pen answered by wryting? but he goeth forward saying, that I do ridiculously distinguish faith from beleefe, in that I do say, there was the [...] one faith and beleefe in christendome before Luther, as though the coniunction and, did distinguish, and n [...]t conioyne together, who is heere ridiculous, or who is the Noddy, or who is the ridiculous noddy, let the reader iudge.

Further he proceedeth affirming that wh [...]ras I say before the alteration of religion there was one forme of seruice, one number of Sacraments, one tongue in celebration one sacrifice, and one head of the Churche, then are m [...]re palpable and vayne vntruthes conteyned i [...] t [...]es [...] wordes,Pag. 17.then is possible to vtter readily with on [...] tongue. And yet he with that his one tongu [...] vttereth readely and desperatly fiue or six no­torious open lyes at the least in contradicting that I say.

[Page 90]For first to contradict that there was not one forme of seruice, he bringeth in the diffe­rences of old Liturges, Pag. [...]8. saying not only the greek lyturgie doth much differ from the latyn, but also the latyn liturges do much differ from themselues, and were so full of abuses, that the councel of Trent abo­lishing a number of old Missals, & portuisses, was constrayned to make new, yet all naught; being no­thing like the liturgies of the Apostolike Churche descri­bed by Iustyn martyr, Dionise of Athens, & diuers other Fathers; for those of S. Iames, S. Basil, & S. Chrysosto­me are playnly counterfeited.

Heere though I call this but one ly,First noto­rious lye a­bout old and nevv lyturges and Mis­sals. or im­pudency, yet are there diuers, for first all these liturges do agree in the substance of the sacri­fice whose manner of offring they do pres­cribe, which heretikes cannot deny, & Caluyn himselfe doth accuse the Fathers for it lib 4. cap. 18. institut. as a litle after shal be shewed more at large, and consequently the differēce betwixt these liturges, and Missals, is only ey­ther for that the one is in Latyn, the other in Greeke, or that they haue some differēt pray­ers, & ceremonyes, altering nothing the thing it selfe, as the Missals in like manner of the latyn Churche had alwayes that variety per­mitted to them without breach of vnity, As [...]or example, those of the vse of Rome, of Millan, of Toledo in Spayne, of Sarum in England, and other national Churches are at [...]his day allowed. Neyther did the councel of [...]rentabolish any of [...]ese auncient vses, but [...]ome newer abuses that might perhaps in so [Page] great a body haue crept in. And wheras this man wil seeme to allow of the lyturges of Iustine Martyr and of Dionise of Athens as Apo­stolike reiecting the other of S. Iames, S. Basil, S. Chrysostome, as counterfet, he contradicteth himself by ignorance and malice, for that Iu­stine martyr and Dionise of Athens wrote noe ly­turges, and the other three, which he reiec­teth, togeather with that of S. Clement (which as litle he wil allow) are the onely lyturges; that are extant, so that if theise be counterfet, then are there noe Apostolike lyturges, for Iu­styne and Dionise to describe, as he sayth they doe,Ciril Hiero­sol. Cathechis. 4. & 5. mistach. Ambros. lib. 5. & 6. de Sa­cram. but S. Ciril in his Cathechisme, and S. Am­brose in his bookes de Sacramentis doe describe and expounde the foresayd lyturges by this man reiected. And so he talketh he cannot tel what.

9 The second notoriously, is in contradic­ting one number of Sacraments held among Catholykes before Luthers alteration.2. Notoriouslyes about the nomber of 7. Sacra­mentes. The number of 7. Sacraments (sayth he) was not cer­taynely established nor receiued before the late councel of Trent, and in the councel of Lateran vnder Pope In­nocentius there is mention made only of 2. Sacraments which wee retayne. Here are two shameful vn­truthes auowched cōcerning two councelles. For first the Councel of Florence which was an hundred yeares before that of Trent,Concil. Flo­rent. in in­struct. Arme­no [...]um. to wit anno 1440. doth set downe plainly and di­stinctly the number of seauen Sacraments, & in the same order that [...]ee doe now, and aboue 200. yeares before that councel agayne [Page 91] Peter Lombard Bishoppe of Paris,Sentent. lib. 4 dist. 2. commonly called M. of the sentences, & all other scoolemen after him doe set downe and handle distinctly seauen Sacramentes without any note of noueltie or contradiction made against them, which is an euident argument, that this was at that tyme also the common doctryne of the Catholyke Church. And albeit the aun­cient Fathers (as this man obiecteth) doe not set downe precisely this nomber of Sacra­ments in expresse wordes, and in one place all together, yet doe they set downe the thinges them-selues, and the same nomber also in dif­ferent places, as by Catholyke writters is she­wed aboundantly when they treate of the nomber of Sacraments.

And as for the obiection about the councel 10 of Lateran, it is an egregious impudencie, for that in the very same place by him alleaged in his margent,A [...]alfication about the councel of Lateran. to wit, Cap. Firmiter de sum. Trini­tate (and he could not chuse but see it) though it be not the councelles purpose, to name all Sacramentes there together, yet doth it expres­sely mention three, to wit: Eucharist. Baptisme & Pennance, and other in other places, as Panor­mitan & other expositours vppon that councel doe shewe.Panormitan. in cap. F [...]r [...] ­ter de Sum. Trinit. & de fide Catholi­ca. And seeing that the M. of sentences wrote but 50. yeares before that councel (for he was made Bishop of Paris in the yeare 1160. and the councel beganne 1215. and his doctrine and learning allowed by all men as Catholyke, howe is it probable that the councel would appoint only two, Sacra­mentes, [Page] so soone after the other, and all other scholemen had written so largely of seauen without reproueing or recal [...]ng their do­ctrine.

11 Wherefore these two lyes & impudencies are inexcusable and fit for such an aduocate.

About ser­uice in the vulgar tōgue.There followeth the third poynt, of seruice in one tongue before the alteration, which he de­nyeth, saying: that in auncient tyme it was neuer thought vnlaweful to celebrate diuine seruice in any tongue vnderstood by the people: Pag. 1 [...]. and that the Greekes euen to this day retayne the Greeke tonge, and that t [...]e Apostle 1. Cor. 14. doth directly condemne tongues vsed in diuine prayers or prayses yf they be not vnder­stood of the people. But all this is answered lar­gely by me before in the third blessing and eight and ninth chapters of this Encounter, and theise are manifest vntruthes, which he addeth heere, for he cannot shewe one exāple out of all antiquitie or histories that any one Catholyke country from Christ downewards to Luther vsed publike seruice in a vulgar tongue, but only in some of the three learned tongues Hebrewe Greeke or Latine, except only some perticular dispensation for some short tyme and vpon especial causes,Aeneas Syl­uius lib. de origine Bo­hemorum cap. 13. as is re­corded of the Morauians where the Priests were permitted by the Pope to say masse in their Slauoniā vulgar tongue vntil they might be instructed in the Latyn, which maketh the second part of this obiection about the Greeke tongue to be very idle, and the third about S. Paule is true in prayses and exhortations [Page 92] that, they ought not to be in peregrine tongues not vnderstood by the heares, but of publike prayer, it cannot be meant, nor haue place, for that in Corinth it was in the greeke tōgue which all commonly vnderstood. See here (good reader) the impertinencie of this fel­low.

Heere foloweth the fourth poynt, and 12 most famous falshood amongst the rest con­cerning one sacrifice throughout Christen­dome before the change of religion, wherof he sayth,A famous vntruth a­bout the sa­crifice of the Masse. The Popish sacrifice of the Masse was not knowne of the Ancient Fathers, &c. but this is re­futed first by all those ancient lyturges before mentyoned wherof some our man granteth to be Apos [...]olike, and all those lyturges do agree vpon one external sacrifice of Christiās in the new Testament, calling it the body and bloud of our Sauiour setting downe also the mā ­ner how that sacrifice is to be offred, which Iohn Caluyn so much misliked (as before I haue touched) that he condemneth them for it,Caluin. lib. 4. instit. c. 18. [...]. 11. saying, im [...]ati sunt propius Iudaicum sacrifican­di morem (speaking of these lyturges) quam aut ordinauerat Christus, aut Euangelij ratio ferebat, the Fathers did imitate more neerlie the Iewes manner of sacrifice, then that which Christ did ordayne, or the nature of the ghospel did beare. Lo heere Caluyn wil teach S. Clement, S. Basil, S. Cyril, S. Ambrose, S. Chrysostome, what Christ ordayned, & what the nature of his ghospel wil beare or not beare.

The like impudency do vse the Centuria [...]o­res 13 [Page] in the very first age after the Apostles,Magd. cent. 2 cap. 4. who recyting the words of Ignatius S. Iohns scholler,Ignat. Ep. ad Smyrnenses non licet sine Episcopo neque offerre, neque sacrificium immolare. It is not lawful to offer, nor to doe sacrifice (among Christians) without the Bishop, those fellowes say, it was inc [...]mmodè dictum, in­commodiouslie spoken, to wit for their purpose, & then againe,Irenaeus lib. 4 contr. heres. cap. [...]2. S. Irenaeus sayth, Noui Testamenti no­uam docuit oblationem, quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis ac­cipiens vniuerso mundo offert. ‘Christ taught a new oblation of the new Testament, which the Churche re­ceyuing from the Apostles, doth offer to God, throughout the whole world, of this they say, satis videtur lo­qui incommodè,’ Irenaeus seemeth to speake very incommodiouslie heere, And this of the Fa­thers of the first age after Christ, to whom also we may ioyne S. Martial disciple of the Apostles (though the Centuriatores make mention of him in the third age) cyting his woords thus,Cent. 3. c. 4. Mart. in ep. ad [...]udegal. ‘Caena (inquit) Domini, id est sacri­ficium Deo creatori offertur in ara. The supper of Christ, that is the Sacrifice is offred to God our creator vpon the Alter;’ and in the same third age, they name diuers Fathers, that make mentyon of this sacrifice, to be vsed in the Churche not only for the liuing, but also for the dead,Tertul lib. de corona mi­lit. Cypr. lib. 3. ep. 6. & lib. 4 [...]p. 3. namely Tertulian and Cyprian, whom the Centuriatores do mislike and reprehend for this cause, and with these Lutheran Centu­riatores ioyneth also in this poynt of defacing the Fathers (though otherwise their open enemye in other poynts of religion) Iohn Caluin in his booke of reformatiō, who doth [Page 93] reproue and checke fiue ancient Fathers by name, that is Irenaeus, Athanasius, Arnobius, Ambrose, and Augustine for holding this doctryne, and misinterpreting and falselie applying the scriptures to the proofe therof,Vbi supra. ità ridiculè (sayth he) vt dissentire cogat, & ratio & veritas, that is, they do apply the scriptures so ridiculouslie (for proofe of the Masse and sacrifice) that both reason and truth doth force me to dis­sent from them; see the pryde heere of Iohn Caluyn, who holdeth for ridiculous so many learned anciēt Fathers, and see the impuden­cie together of our bold and blynde bayard O. E. that dare auouch the sacrifice of the Masse was neuer so much as knowne to the ancient fathers.

His fifth and last cauillation is about one 14 head of the Churche acknowledged by all Catholikes through Christendome before Luthers alteration.The fifth cauillation about one head of the Churche. Finally (sayth he) as the Popes headship is now denyed of the Easterne Chur­ches, & so was for many ages, so was the ancient Churche vtterlie ignorant of that matter, if this Nod­dy wil persist in his error, let him shew it if he can. Heere yow see that howsoeuer I persist in er­ror, he persisteth in his contumelious speech begun, of calling me Noddie at euery word, but where the noddiship trulie lighteth when the matter is tryed, I am content to remit it to the readers iudgment.

And heere the verie first clause of his speech 15 conteyneth no smal noddytisme to wit the bringing in for an instance the later east chur­ches [Page] that haue fallen to schisme and heresie also (namely about the holy Ghost) as our ad­uersaries wil not deny, wheras my assertion was, that one head was acknowledged by a [...]l Catholike people of Christendome, so as the instance of the late greeks since their fall, doth make nothing to the purpose, and that the ancient greeke Fathers did acknowledge the preeminencie of the Churche of Rome aboue all other Churches, and consequentlie also of her gouernour and Pastor the Pope, is most euident euen at this day by their owne wry­tings yet extant, as by Ignatius his Epistle ad Rom. Iren. at large aduersus haeres. lib. 3. cap. 3. Athan. apolog. 2. Epiphan. lib. contr. haereses 68. Basi­lius Epist. 52. Nazianz. carm. de vita sua. Chrysost. Ep. prima & secunda ad Innocentium. Greeke Fa­thers ackno­leging [...]he principalite & superiorite of the Romā Churche. Cyril. ep. 10. ad Nestorium. & ad 11. clerum & populum constantinop. [...]heodoret. epist. ad Leonem Papam. Zoz [...]m [...]n. lib. 3. hist. cap. 7. All which ten ancient greeke Fa­thers let any man read in the places cyted (for that they are to long here to be set downe) & then let him iudge also of the second noddy­tisme, when he sayth, that the ancient Chur­che was vtterlie ignorant of this matter, for if the ancient greeke Churche did acknow­ledge it, how much more all the ancient la­tyn fathers and doctors. And this may be suf­ficient for this first ioynder about vnitie o [...] fayth in Catholikes, let vs passe to the second about the meanes to iudge or know the truth.

THAT PROTESTANTS not only haue no agreement or vnitie among them-selues in matters of religion, but also are depriued of all sure meanes and certayne rule wherby to attayne therunto. CAP. XIIII.

THER [...] foloweth in the Ward-word,1 that not onlie the Protestants haue no present vnion in doctrine amōg them-selues,In certaynty of beliefe among pro­testants. See of this sup. cap 4. num. 10. but also that it is impossible that euer they can haue it, which is as great a spiritual curse, and malediction as may be, and this for lack of due meanes to procure or establish the same. And to this purpose the K. is hardlie posed by the warder about the certaintie of his fayth and religion to wit, how he can haue any, and by what infallible meanes he can be sure that he is in the right way, and not in he­resie, and seing that he, and his do make scrip­tures their onelie assurance, & this dependeth of the true sense, he is asked, and vrged, whe­ther he hath this certaintie of Scripture by his owne reading onlie and iudgment or by the credit of some ministers that enterpret the Scriptures in this or that sense vnto him, and whether soeuer of these two wayes he stand vpō it is shewed and proued to be vncertayne, the first depending onelie of the owne iudg­ment, the second of others, who being priuate men, & hauing no more assurance of the holie [Page] Ghosts assistance then him-selfe,The curse of vncertainty among pro­testants. can be no more sure or infallible then the first, wherof it foloweth, that a protestant hath not, nor can haue any further certainty of the truth of his religion then humaine iudgement, or proba­bilitie can giue him (which is a miserable curse, and no fayth at all) except he wil flie to his inward spirit and inspiration, which is farre more vncertayne, and perilous then the other, all which is contrarie in the Catholyke Churche, and in the way and meanes of tryal which she foloweth, and consequentlie that the certayntie is farre different for securitie.

2 Furthermore the K. is sore vrged in this poynt of vncertaintie, about disagreeing not onlie from the old Catholyke doctors of the primitiue Church, but also from his owne the new, yea those that first brought this later light of his religion (yf it were light) into the world, as Luther, zwinglius, Caluyn, and such others, and he is demanded how he can dissent from the [...]e men, as he doth in so great poynts of doctrine,See before cap. 3.4.5. & yet haue no certainty of beliefe, seing these men, were as learned as he, and no lesse illuminated by his owne confession, and yf they were deceyued in some poynts, they might be in all, &c.

From this curse of varietie and vncer­taintie of doctryne and beliefe, the warder passeth to an other no lesse markable brought in by change of old religion, which is, disso­lution of lyfe and manners, which protestants them-selues do not deny in their writings [Page 95] as before hath byn shewed,The curse of euel lyfe. Sup. cap 6. and yf they would, the experience of England it selfe is sufficient for proofe, and the warder declareth it by playne demonstration wherunto not­withstanding it seemed good to the K. to ans­were with deepe silence, not so much as mut­t [...]ring any one thing for his defence, so as heere I would thanke him as S. Augustine in a like case thanked Faustus the Manichie, Aug. contra Faust. ma­nich. lib. 2. in fine. Gratiae tibi agende sunt, vbi nonnulla sic vidisti te refutare non posse, vt ea malles summo silentio praeteriri. ‘Yow are to be thanked in that yow saw (and therby confessed) some things in my book to be so vnanswerable, as yow choose rather to passe them ouer with deepe silence then to say any thing vnto them.’

Then foloweth in the ward-word another 3 treatise of temporal effectes by change of re­ligion, which he reduceth also to two heads. First what was liklie to haue fallen out, if this change of religion had not bene made in her Ma^ties tyme, and then what hath ensued vpon the said change, and for the first he handleth eyght poyntes liklie to haue folowed. 1. The strength and felicitie her Ma^tie. should haue had by all liklihood through the vnion of her subiectes, 2. The securitie therof ensuing. 3. Maryage, and noble yssue of her Ma^ties body. 4. The establishment of succession. 5. Vnion with Rome, and sea Apostolyke. 6. Ancient leagues with forayne Princes mainteyned. 7. much bloody warre in our neighbors kingdomes had byn auoyded. 8. diuers important damages, and [Page] peryls at home by a [...]l liklihood had neuer rysen, all which great felicities hauing beene eyther lost by change of religion, or greatlie weakned, and put in daunger, he sheweth further that the contrarie effectes of curses, & calamities haue or may ensue therby, and ha­uing layd them foorth he finally concludeth thus.

4 ‘All these inconueniences, and calamities had byn auoyded,Pag. 1 [...].4. or the most of them, if chāge of Religion in England had not byn made, so that the innumerable bened [...]ct [...]ons which this poore man would neads threape vpon vs, by that change, do come to be in effect these that follow.’

‘The summe of all that hath byn said about bles­sings, and cursings.First in spiritual affayres, to haue no cer­tayntie of religion at all, as hath byn proued, no stay, no foundation, no final rule to try, or iudge to determin, but onlie euery mās owne priuate head, and fancie, wrangling and ian­gling without end, for that it is without iudge or meanes to make an end: nouelties without number, libertie of lyfe without feare, or force of ecclesiastical discipline to restrayne it. And then in tēporal matters the blessings are such as haue byn discouered, our realme deuided & shiuered in a thousand peeces; our Princesse in yeares without children, or hope of any, our crowne without succession, our old frends & allies made our enemyes, our new frends vn­certayne; our owne flesh and countrymen most pittifullie deuided within their owne bowels, and most miserably tossed, and tor­moyled [Page 96] both abroad and at home, abroad and in other coūtryes, with prisons, yrōs, chaynes, gallyes, and other afflictions, euen to death it selfe; for being protestants, pyrates, spyes, pra­ctisers, or other such imputations incident to enemyes. At home afflicted with no lesse per­secutions of our owne Magistrats, for being Catholikes, or deemed to be such. So as I would fayne know, who they are in our litle Iland, that feele these innumerable benefits & blessings by change of religion, which this gentleman talketh of, seing there are verie fewe eyther of one religion or other, that tast not of the miseries, wherof I haue spoken, ey­ther in themselues, their frends, children, ser­uants, kynsfolkes, goods honors, or otherwise, and most of al the realme and commō wealth it selfe, &c.’

To all this speach and reason of the warder 5 Syr F. answereth onlie in foure or fiue lynes thus:Pag. 2 [...]. Vayne and ydle ans­vvering. As for your building of Castels in the Ayre by supposal o [...] blessings that might probably haue ensued, if religion had not byn altered, because I meane not to take the paynes to follow yow in your extrauagant discourses, and because they are indeed nothing but the imaginations of an ydle brayne, I leaue them to M^r. Moores Fictio Vtopica. Who could answere with fewer words, or lesse matter so large, & im­portant a discourse, then Syr F. doth heere? or who could go further [...]rom the purpose then he, that leaueth out the substance of all his aduersaries allegation, and entertayneth him­selfe in tryfles of his owne deuising▪ Let the [Page] reader iudge whether his answere be right­lie termed a wastword or no. I must needs conclude as S. Augustine did against Iulian with this interrogation.Aug. lib. 1. contra Iulia­num. cap. 1. Quaero abs te cur lib [...]o meo saltem spetie tenus te respondisse glorieris, cum li­bri mei partem nec quartam reprehendendo tetige [...]is, eosque saltus in praetereundis meis disputationibus fece­ris, quasi omnino desp [...]rares veriusque operis, & mei scilicet & tui quenquam esse posse lectorem qui ista de­prehenderet? I aske of yow (Syr F.) as good a disputer or shifter rather as was Iulian) how yow can glorie to haue answered my former book, wheras yow haue not so much as tou­ched the fourth parte therof, and haue made such leapes in passing ouer my arguments, & disputatiōs, as though yow dispayred that any reader would view both workes, and fynd out your falshood in this behalfe.

VVHAT O. E. ANSVVE­reth to the former chapter about diuision, and vncertainty in religion. CAP. XV.

I HAVE signifyed vnto thee (gentle rea­der) before, that where the knight fyn­ding matters somwhat hard, or vneasie to an­swere, seeketh now and then with some re­gard of honor, and reputation; to step ouer without stumbling, and to salue some mat­ters by smothe sylence, there bold bayard the [Page 97] minister, rushing in with more resolution, & masking himselfe with the vizard of two vo­wels. O. E. (which may stand perhaps in his cypher for Owles Eyes to looke thorough and to see, and not be seene agayne) layeth on load both in babling, and scoulding, saying somwhat to euery thing, though nothing in deed to all, and folowing the threed of my speach, and narration, he picketh quarrels to whatsoeuer seemeth most capable of cauilla­tion, and this appeareth to be his cheifely en­tended exployt in this his enterprise of an­swering, the proofe shalbe seene by expe­rience.

And first of all wheras the warder obiec­teth 2 diuision disvnion and disagreement to him and his (as you haue heard) and this not onlie from Catholikes, but also from their owne ghospellers,Pag. 4.as from the Lutheranes in Germany, and Denmarke (to vse the warders owne wordes) from Zwinglians in Zuitzer­land, from Caluinists in Geneua, France, Hol­land, and Scotland, & from Puritanes, Brow­nists and other sects at home, that impugne Protestants daylie of the parlament religion. This fellow denyeth first verie flatlie,Pag. 19. that there is any diuision among them at all, And heere he wynneth the first garland of impudencie as yow see, but look vpon an other more cleare then this.Great impu­dency of O. E. Secondly (sayth he) the Churches of Zwitzerland, Germany, France, & England, do ney­ther hold of Zuinglius, Caluyn, nor Luther, but of Christ Iesus, and of his Apostles and Prophets.

[Page] 3 Lo (reader) how quicklie this matter [...] dispatched, and how soone disagreement [...] made betweene them, see the 4.5. and 6. for­mer chapters for tryal of this poynt: and note by the way, that of purpose he leaueth out heere the Puritanes espetialie mentyoned by the warder, for that he hauing written so ear­nestlie against them a litle before cānot with his honour now make attonemēt with them, as he doth with the Lutheranes of Germany, Zuinglians of Switzerland, and Caluinists of France, vniting them all in one Churche, and in the true doctryne of Iesus Christ, and con­sequentlie also with himselfe and his Chur­che of England according to the rule & prin­ciple. Quae conueniunt in aliquo tertio, inter se et [...]an conueniunt, those things that agree in a third [...] agree also betweene themselues, which he ex­poundeth also presentlie after by the worde [...] next folowing. As [...]or our selues (sayth he) al of vs professe the doctryne of Christ Iesus, Pag 19. according to that rule that was established by common cons [...] of the Churche of England, from which if any di­gresse, he is no more to be accounted of our society th [...] the Papists, &c. Marke heere (good reader) the guyddy head of this gagling goose, first he ioyneth together in the true doctryne of Ie­sus Christ,Most foolish inconstancy and contra­diction to himselfe. and of his Apostles and prophets as wel all Lutherans, and Zuinglians, as also all kynde of Caluinists and consequently Pu­ritanes whome yet presentlie he cutteth o [...] agayne,Pag. 17. no less then Papists and those of the Popes retinue (whom before he said to be no [Page 98] Christians, nor to hold any one article a right of christian fayth) if they do digresse in any thing from the rule of fayth established by common consent of the Churche of England, which all doe, and consequentlie he doth as much as if with one hand he should embrace, & lul and coople together both Lutherans, Zuinglians and Puritanes, acknowledging them for his deare and tender brethren, and with the other should beat them of, & detest them as enemyes and publike heretikes, for so he doth in effect, seing it is euident, that ney­ther the sectaryes of Lutherās, Zuinglians, or Puritan-Caluinists of Geneua, France, Scot­lād, Hollād or England do agree which O. E. his rule of fayth here mentioned to wit, the rule established by common consent at this day in the Churche of England, And this is euidentlie, and aboundantly proued by their owne books and sayings before recyted in the 4.5.6. and sequēt chapters of this Encounter.

But for that our Minister maketh mention heere of a certayne rule of fayth, wherby he and his are directed, and others that digresse from the same are to be reiected from their communion and societie, I meane to examine [...]he same brieflie in this place, and to see what [...] is.

And first of all that there is and must be 4 [...]ome certayne rule among Christians,That their is some cer­tayne rule of fayth as vvel hovv to beleeue as also vvherby to interpret scriptures. wherby [...]o know and stay their fayth, and to discerne [...]ew Catholykes from heretykes, is most [...]ident both by reason it selfe, and by the au­thoritie [Page] of the verie first founders of our re­ligion, who often do make mention, and ad­monish vs therof as S. Paul to the Corinthians se­cundum regulam nostram, 2. Cor. 10. according to our rul [...] and to the Philippenses, in eadē permaneamus re­gula let vs persist in the same rule. And to the Gallatians,Phil. 3. quicúnque hanc regulam secu [...] fuer [...]t, pax super illos, whosoeuer shal follow this rule of fayth,Gal. 6. peace vpon them, and other such places,Rom. 12. as namely to the Romanes, Prophetia se­cundum rationem fidei, prophesy (by which i [...] vnderstood heere principallie, interpretatio [...] of scriptures) according to the rule or analogie o [...] fayth, for so is the greek word.

5 By all which places is manifest, that there i [...] a certayne publike rule of fayth, and was eue [...] among the Apostles them-selues, and thesam [...] continued afterward by all the Fathers o [...] euery age wherby it was easye to distingui [...] betweene such as were Orthodoxi or Catho­lykes, and others that were new fangled o [...] wrangling people, that would follow no rul [...] but their owne head, and fancyes, of whi [...] rule make mention also in the primiti [...] Churche Ignatius after the Apostles epist. ad [...]gnetianos, Iustinus Apol 2. pro Christianis, Irenaeus [...] 1. cap. 1. & 2. Clemens lib. 4. stromatum aduersus [...] reses, Tertullianus lib. de velandis virginibus, [...] Alexandrinus as S. Basil cyteth him lib. de spiri [...] cap. 29. and many other Fathers commendi [...] highlie, and inculcating often the obseruati [...] of this rule as wel for beliefe, as also for inte [...]pretation of Scriptures, but especiallie to c [...]cerne [Page 99] heretikes, who (to vse these Fathers owne words) do no sooner begin to pratle, but that by digressing from this rule do bewray them-selues, and shew what they are, and thus far that there is a rule, which our enemies cannot deny.

But now what that rule is it may be that 6 our Minister and I shal not so soone agree,VVhat the rule of faith is or vvas in old tyme. but yet first of all that it cannot be onlie Scripture is euident by his owne speach and confession in this place,Pag 19. where he sayth, that his people of England do professe the Doctrine of Christ Iesus accor­ding to that rule, that was established by common consent of the Churche of England, from which rule (sayth he) if any digresse, they are none of our societie, [...]o more then Papists. By which words is euident that his rule consisteth of the consent and esta­blishment of certayne men in England, what to belieue, which is a different matter from scriptures, though they wil say perhaps that in this establishment, they folowed Scriptures as wil also the Puritanes and others, that heere are excluded by this established rule.

And besyds this confession of O. E. him­selfe,7 there are many other conuincing reasons that this rule named by the Apostles was not [...]cripture, and among other this that eyther [...]one or very litle of the newe Testament was written, when this rule of fayth was published, [...]or no vse, and practise among Christians, as [...]ppeareth by the often repetition therof made [...]y the same Apostles afterward, when they [...]ame to write. Wel then not to be longer, for [Page] so much as this rule could not be onlie scri­pture the best way perhaps to vnderstād what it was and is at this day wil be to heare some of the anciēt Fathers, describe the same. Holy Ignatius writing to the same Churche that S. Paul did (a litle before cyted) to wit,Phil. 3. Ig [...]. [...]. epist. [...] Philip­penses. to the Philippenses, sayth, id ipsum dicatis omnes idem sentientes, in hoc ipso fidei regulas praeceptáque seruaui, ‘sicut & Paulus erud [...]ens n [...]s dicit. Do yow say and teach the selfe same and be of one iudgment, for by this haue I obserued the rules of fayth, as Paul instructing vs, sayd.’ Lo heere the iudg­ment of Ignatius, who affirmeth him-selfe to haue obserued the rule of fayth, for that he said and taught that which all said and taught, and thought that which all thought, and fo­lowed no singularitie eyther of his owne or others.

8 Irenaeus calleth this rule the order of traditio [...] from the Apostles tyme to his, Iren. aduers. haeres lib. 2. cap 3 & 4. The great estimation of [...]he old rule of faith by which he sayth, that all heretikes are conuinced in such sorte that Catholykes shut vp their eares, as soone as they heare them speake contrarie to the said rule of vniuersal fayth, deliuered by tradition from age to age.Iren. ibid. Traditionem Apostolorum (fayth he) in toto mundo manifestatam in omni Ecclesia ade [...] perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire, &c. ‘We may see the tradition of the Apostles in euery Churche if we wil heare the truth and we can number those Bishops that were instituted by the Apostles, and their successors vnto our dayes, who taught not that which these he­retikes dreame, &c.’

[Page 100]Thus said he, accompting this rule to be 9 the whole tradition of our Ancestors cōming downe by succession of Bishops and Pastors.Ter [...]. lib. de praescript. contr. haeret. cap. 27. ‘To whom agreeth Tertullian presentlie after him calling this rule, the fulnesse of the Apostles preaching, si ergo incredibile est, (sayth he) ignorasse Apostolos plenitudinem praedicationis, vel omnem ordinem regulae omnibus non edidisse, &c. if it be incredible that the Apostles did not know the fulnes of the preaching of the ghospel or that they did not deliuer vnto all Christians all the order of the rule of beliefe, &c. And the same man in an other place,Tert. lib de praescrip cōtr. h [...]r. cap. 1 [...]. Fides in regulae posita est, cedat curiositas fides, certè aut non obstrepant, aut quiescant aduersus regulam, &c.’ Fayth con­sisteth in rule, let curiositie yeild to fayth, and let heretikes eyther not prate, or be silent against this rule. So saith he, and in an other place, if saith he we wil doubt or aske questions in matters of religion, let vs inquyre o [...] our owne men to wit Catholykes, Ibid. and in such matters, as Salua regula fidei possit in quaesti [...]nem deuenire, which without breach of the rule of fayth may be called into controuersie.

By all which sayings we see of what ac­compte 10 this rule of fayth was in the Primitiue Churche, and that it conteyned in deed the verie summe and corps of Christian doctrine deliuered at the beginning by the miracles & preachings of the Apostles,1. Cor. 1 [...]. wherof S. Paul said to the Corinthians sic praedicauimus sic credi­distis, so we haue preached, and so yow haue beleeued. And afterward partly by writing, [Page] and partly by tradition continued, and con­serued to posteritie by the general consent and succession of the Catholyke Churche, and her gouernors, and among other things this rule conteyned the Symbo [...]um or Creed of the Apostles,VVhat the old rule of fayth con­teyned. Tert. lib. cōt. heres. cap. 13. Rom. 12. Tertullian expresly testifieth, and besydes this it comprehended many things more in particular, as explication of diuers hydden mysteries with direction how to vnderstand scriptures, as is playne by S. Paul before alleadged where he would haue pro­phesying or exposition of Scriptures to be according to the anologie & proportiō of this rule of fayth, to wit, that no exposition should be made according to the priuate spirit of any man, but accor­ding to that fayth and beliefe which before was generally receyued,2. Pet. 1. as S. Peter expresly aduiseth vs, wherby it came to passe as sayth Epiphanius, that no heretyke could euer put vp his head, and begin any thing against this rule, but that presentlie by the force therof he was discouered, and discomfyted, euen as now O.E. in this place as yow see goeth about to reiect Puritanes, and exclude them from his societie, for that they dissent from his parti­cular new rule established by a fewe in the Churche & Parliament of Englād, & this rule of his made but yesterday, and by a fewe, and not yet throughly agreed vpon among them­selues is thought of such force as it can ex­clude & reiect so many learned of their owne syde, how much more, the ancient rule made by the Apostles, and continued euer since by [Page 101] all the Catholyke world is sufficient to con­demne all new sectaries of our tyme that dare iangle against it.

And this might be sufficient for declaration 11 of this rule, the antiquitie, force & vse therof, but that I can not wel omit a peece of one example out of old Tertulian aboue 14. hundred yeares agone, who after the words before cyted, where he sayth this rule is the fulnesse of the Apostles preaching (and note that he sayth preaching and not wryring) come downe in the Churche by dissent and tradition, he not onlie teacheth but vseth also the same rule & the eminent force therof against all heretikes of his tyme, who (as ours do now) pretended that this rule & corpes of fayth deliuered by the Apostles might perchance be corrupted, altered, misunderstood, or changed by their successors, and that the later Churches were not so pure, as the former, and consequentlie this rule so much vrged of tradition, and vni­uersal cōsent might not be infallible, to which absurditie after many other reasons & repre­hensiōs, Tertulian sayth as foloweth;Tertul lib. de p [...]es [...] contr. haeret. cap. 26. Age nunc omnes errauerint, &c. ‘Go to now, let vs grant that all Churches (or the most of them) after the Apostles haue erred, & that the holy ghost sent for this cause by Christ,A notable discourse of old. Tertul. against all heretiks. and for this cause demanded of his Father, to be the teacher of truth, vnto them, hath not respected them and that this steward of God and vicar of Christ hath neglected his office vpon earth permit­ting the Churches of Christianitie to beleeue [Page] otherwise, and to vnderstand matters diffe­rently from that which the selfe same holy ghost did preach by the Apostles. But tel m [...] ys it likely that so many & so great Churches ouer Christēdome haue all erred, and yet haue agreed in one faith? Error of doctrine by all liklihood would haue brought in (as it hath done among Protestants) varietie also of do­ctrine among those Churches, but that which it found to be one, Quod apud multos vn [...] ̄ inuenitu [...] no est erratu [...] sed tradit [...]. and the selfe same among many is not to be thought to come by error but by tradition, and can any mā dare to say that they did erre who lefte, behind them those Traditions? but how­soeuer yow shal cal yt error, yet this Error ray­gned for truth vntil heresies rose vp to im­pugne yt, belike truth beeing oppressed ex­pected the comming of Marc [...]onithes, and Val [...]n­tinians to deliuer her out of captiuity, and in the meane space all preaching was in error,A scorne of Tertullian falling iustly vpon prote­stan [...]. all beleeuing in error, so many thowsands of thowsands baptised in error, so many good, workes of fayth done in error so many vertues, so many graces & miracles wrought in error, so many priesthoods and mysteries exercised in error, and finallie so many martyrdomes crowned by error, &c.’

12 Thus farre and much farther passeth on Tertullian to vrge and conuince the heretikes of his age by force of this rule deliuered by tradition of the Apostles, receyued by Chri­stendome, and conserued by the Apostles suc­cessors vnto his tyme: and the same rule of ge­neral consent deliuered by succession of [Page 102] Bishops do vrge all old auncient Fathers in like sorte each one in his age after Tertullian, August. Vine. ly [...]. lib. contr. heres. cap. 27. but in steed of all let S. Augustine be red vrging this rule against all sortes of heretikes, but especially, and more largely against the Donatests and Pelagians, and after him againe the very next age, Vincentius Lirenensis who after a longe discourse to this purpose vrgeth the words of S. Paul to Timothy, 1. Tim. 6. o Timothee depositum custod [...] &c. o Tymothy keepe wel thy pleadge or pawne lefte with thee; which pawne as wel this father as the reste do interpret to be the forsayd rule of tradition of fayth? Quid est de­positū (sayth he) what ys the pleadge or pawne lefte by the Apostles with Timothy and other Bishops of the Churche, and he answe­reth presently. Id est quod tibi creditum est, non quod a te inuentum, quod accepists, non quod excogitasti: rem non ingenij sed doctrine, non vsurp [...]tionis priuatae sed publicae traditionis; rem ad te perductam, non a te prolatam: in qua non author esse debes sed custos: non institutor, sed sectator; non ducens, sed sequens, &c.

‘This pawne or pledge is a thing geuen yow in credit, and not inuented by yow, a thing which yow haue receyued, and not deuised: a matter not of wit, but of doctrine: not of pryuate vsurpation, but of publyke tra­dition: a thing brought downe vnto yow, & not brought forth first by yow a thing wher­of yow must not be author, but keep only; not the fownder but a follower, not a leader, but one that is led.’

Thus sayth he of the rule of faith in his [Page] tyme, which rule also serueth vs no lesse at this day against all sorte of protestants then it did them at that tyme against their aduer­saryes: but rather much more, for that our prescription of this rule is by many hundred yeares elder then theirs was, and so this shal suffise about this matter of the Ecclesiastical rule of fayth, what yt was, and what the aun­cient Fathers did thinke and esteeme, therof, and now we wil examine a litle what styrre the minister maketh about his goodly rule of the present particular Churche of England.

OF THE ENGLISH rule of beliefe set downe by O. E. And what substāce, or certaintie it hath, & how they doo vse it for excluding Puritanes & other Protostantes, and of diuers shame­ful shifts of O. E. CAP. XVI.

1 NOTHING is more true in that kynd then the saying of the philosopher,A [...]ift lib. 1. Phis. Con­traria iuxta se posita clarius elucescunt, That con­traryes being layd togeather do make each other better seene and vnderstood, as a rag­ged garment layd by another that is fayre and pretious, maketh the ragges and patches more euident and contemtible, and euen so this ri­diculous new deuised rule of O. E. if we com­pare it with the former auncient rule, com­mended [Page 103] vnto vs by the old holie fathers we shal see more perspicuously the vanitie ther­of, for that he sayth.Pag. 19. As for our selues (that is the Protestants of England) all of vs professe the doctrine of Iesus Christ according to that rule that was esta­blished by the common consent of England, and who­soeuer doth digresse from this is not of our societie, &c.

But here I would aske him what rule this 2 is and in what yeare it was established, by whom, and how many, and what authoritie they had to establish or to make any new rule from the old receyued before in matters of religion?See the sta­tutis anno Henr. 8.25. c. 14. & an. 26. cap. 1. an. 27. c. 15 & 19. an. 31. ca. 14. an. 34. & 35. cap 1. for yf he speake of K. Henry the 8. his dayes, when the first chaunges beganne, and when diuers new rules were set downe in parlament with this expresse commenda­tion that they were taken out of the pure and syncere only woord of God, I doo not think that O. E. wil admit them, or stand vnto them, though Iohn Fox do hold all that tyme of K. Henrie his mutations after his breach with the Churche of Rome, for the tyme of the ghospel and so doth terme it euery where.

In K. Edward dayes also, he being head of 3 the Churche,An 1. Ed c. 1.2. & 11. & an. 2. & 3. cap. 1.21.23. though but 9. yeares old, there was two or three new rules made and altered about matters of religion and their commu­nion book, all pretended out of the word of God, with reuocation of that which K. Hen­ry the Father and his Parlaments, out of the same woord had appoynted before which rule also vnder K. Edward. I do not know [Page] whether our Protestāts wil allow in all poyn­tes now, but sure I am our Puritanes do not, nor wil not, as appeareth by theire owne bookes; what assurance then is there in this mutable and controuerted rule of so fewe yeares in age?

4 But the most important question is, who and what men, and by what authoritie they made this rule? The Warder knew no other when he writ, but the Lords of the Parlamēt, and so called it parlament religion wherwith O. E. is very angry,Pag. 19. and sayth where he cal­leth our religion parlament religion, he spea­keth like himselfe, that is falsly and slaunde­rously, for albeit the same be receyued by au­thoritie of the Prince & state, yet is it Christs re [...]igion and not the Princes. Soone spoken but how doth he proue it? here is styl that old shifte of peti [...]io principij, hissed out by lear­ned men, which consisteth in setting downe that for a principle, which most needeth proof, as heere where our minister wil needs haue his religion to be Christs religion, whe­ther we wil or no, and that it was but recey­ued and promulgated only by the parlament, but then must I aske him agayne, what autho­ritie besydes the parlament hath determyned it to be Christs religion? as also that the Puri­tans religion is not Christs religion, notwith­standing they pretend Christ, and his Apostles no lesse then doth the protestant? and then if we fynd that the only authoritie that defy­neth this matter is the Parlament allowing [Page 104] the one and condemning the other, for that scriptures of themselues can not do it (quia actiones sunt suppositorum, as a litle after he vr­geth) and then must needs the credit & truth of English religion depend of the parlament, and therof, worthelie be called Parlament re­ligion.

But harken (good reader) what an exam­ple 5 he hath found to auoyd,An example making against him­self. that his religion may not be called Parlament religion. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theod [...]sius de­creed (sayth he) that all people of their gouernment should hold the doctryne of Peter the Apostle, Pag. 19. taught by Damasus bishop of Rome, and Peter bishop of [...]lexandria, & that they should beleeue one God and three persons, & yet I hope this Noddy wil not cal the fayth of the Trinitie an imperial fayth, See this hād­led more largely be­fore in the ann [...]t. vpon the letter of O. [...]. to the reader. &c. Yes surelie Syr Noddy-maker, I would cal and proue it so if the case were like, that is, if these three Emperors had determined this fayth as of thēselues, and by their imperial authoritie, and that it had byn a different beliefe from the rule of fayth receyued before, through­out Christendome, as your parlament religiō was and is, hauing no other ecclesiastical Au­thoritie [...]or her establishment, but only the authoritie of your Prince and parlament, which defyned it to be trew religion and cō ­forme to the word of God, and determined that the other which was there before in vse, to wit the Catholike to be opposite and con­trarie to thesaid word, and therfore to be abolished so as the allowance of the one, and [Page] reprobation of the other proceeded from the parlament.

6 But the proceeding of the foresaid three Emperors in this their alleaged decree, was farre otherwise, which O.E. if he had had any more wit then a Noddy would neuer haue brought in, being a matter that doth cleerlie cōuince him & his religiō of noueltie, & here­sie. For that Gratiā & Valētinian his sonne being Emperors of the west,The decree of the 3. Emp. exa­mined. and Theodosius of the East, all three do agree to commend to their subiects the romane fayth, and bishop of tha [...] place to wit Damasus thē sitting in that chaire, vnder payne of heresy, infamy, and other extreeme punishments, which poynt for that the false minister after his fashion durst no [...] put downe clearly as the woords themselues do ly in the text, least therby he should disco­uer ouer much the truth, I meane to do it for him, in this place without other fee for my labour then to proue him a cosening com­panion, and alleaging them brokenly to his owne purpose.Cod lib. 1. de summa Tri­ [...]it. c. Cūctos e [...]. ‘Cunctos populos (sayth the de­cree) quos clementiae nostrae regit imperium, in tali ro­lumus religione vessar [...], quam diuinum Petrum Aposto­lum tradidisse Romanis, religio vsque adhuc ab ipso i [...] ­sinuata declarat, quamque Pontificem Damasum seq [...] claret & Petrum Alexandriae Episcopum virum Aposto­licae sanctitatis, &c. our wil is that all people whom the Empyre of our clemency doth gouerne, shal lyue in that religion which di­uine Peter deliuered vnto the Romanes, as the religion by him taught, and enduring to [Page 105] this day doth playnly shewe, which religion (lefte by S. Peter) it is euident, that Damasus bishop of Rome doth folow, as also Peter bishop of Alexandria a man of Apostolical holynes, &c. to wit that according to Aposto­lical discipline, and euangelical doctryne, we all beleeue one deity of the Father, the Sōne & the holy Ghost, with equal maiesty in holy Trinity, and this law whosoeuer doth fol­low, we command that they do imbrace the name of christiā Catholikes, the rest whō we esteeme as mad and furious men we wil haue to beare the infamy of heretical doctryne and to be punished first by God & then by vs.’

This is the decree of these three Emperors 7 against heretiks for neere 1200. yeare agoe, wherin yow see they remit themselues all three (though one were of the east Empyre) to the Romane religion, and to Damasus the Pope his beleefe, with whom the Patriarke of Alexandria for the east Churche did also agree, and heere is nothing determined of re­ligion as yow see by their owne authoritie, but only that such as followed the Romane [...]eligion, and Pope of those dayes, should be compted Catholikes, and the rest heretikes, which if the parlament of England had done in these our dayes, as all ancient parlaments were wont to doe (as appeareth by our statu­ [...]es) then could not the religion authorized by [...]hem be called parlament religion, no more [...]hen this can be called Imperial, though pub­ [...]ished and protected by Emperors.

[Page] 8 Now then (gentle reader) consider how many fol [...]yes or Nodytismes (which the mi­nister obiected alwayes to me) be by him cō ­mitted in alleaging this one example of these Emperors, and on whom they light, but the principal is, that being alleaged by himself, and for himself, it maketh wholie against him, & ouerthroweth quite his cause which may be accōpted doltisme also in the deane, besydes Nodytisme: for it sheweth first the whole difference betweene these Catholike Emperors decree,Poynts of the Emp. de­cree contrary to O. E. for defence of religion, and the modernal decrees of our Parlaments that take vpon them to appoynte and defyne reli­gion in England, it sheweth that the Romane religion was receyued by S. Peter, and had endured so vntil their dayes, which was more then 400. yeares, it sheweth also that Dama­sus Pope of Rome was then the cheife gouer­nor of christian religion throughout the world: it sheweth that these Emperours ac­counted him for their head, and not he them in matters of religion, it sheweth how hum­bly these Emperors did submit themselues to the decree of the councel of Nice made before their dayes about three persons in one God-head, confirmed by Pope Siluester, and con­tinued by Damasus; and it sheweth how obedientlie and christianly these Emperors did hold them for Catholike christiās, whom thesaid councel, and Pope Damasus did hold for Catholiks and condemned those for in­famous heretikes, who did dissent from their [Page 106] obedience in religion; and now whether our later Parlaments of England haue done the same by the councel of Trent, and Popes con­firming & defending the same (as our former parlaments were wont to doe) I leaue to the reader to iudge, and whether this law of these Emperors were wyselie brought in by O. E. or no; but let vs passe yet further in ex­amyning this rule for tryal of truth.

The minister hauing shifted of wittilie (as 9 it seemeth to him) the exprobration of par­lament religion by the foresaid example of the Emperors, falleth to range, and roue wyde & far, and to obiect to vs that‘in Q. maryes dayes our religion was established more by parla­ment, then by authoritie of the Apostles, that we are deuided among our selues, and haue more then 200. diuers opinions about the Sa­crament of the L. supper, that the vniuersal Churche could not deliuer vs our fayth,Diuers ma­nifest false obiections. quia [...]tiones sunt suppositorum, that our fayth is ney­ [...]her Catholyke, nor hath any certayne groūd [...]t all, but is buylded vpon the particular opi­ [...]ions of this or that mutable and [...]ulearned [...]ope, that it is not ancient, but ful of late no­ [...]eltyes, and old heresyes, and other such stuffe [...]ithout end, prating much, and prouing no­ [...]ing so as no Mountebank in Italie could [...]ewe him-selfe lesse shameles, or more ridi­ [...]lous.’

And to say a word or two to euery one of 10 [...]ese fooleries before rehearsed, the religion [...]at the parlament established in Q. Maryes [Page] dayes was it any new religion,VVhat reli­gion vvas planted by parlament in Q. Maries dayes. or differen [...] from the rest of Christendome? or did the par­lament then do any other thing then th [...] former edict or decree of the Emperors tha [...] commandeth men to hold the anciēt re [...]g [...] of Rome descended from the Apostles? an [...] follow the Bishop of that Churche thē liui [...] as head of all Christendome?

11 And as for the two hundred different o [...] ­nions that Catholykes are said to haue, let [...] E. and all his compagnions together proued two only that are real differences, and t [...] maynteyned by Catholykes being oppos [...] one to the other, and that in poynts of fayth [...] ­deed, and I shal yeild, and pardon all the oth [...] hundred nyntie and eyght differences that [...] obiecteth, but if he cannot proue this of [...] only, (as neuer he wil be able) then are th [...] not two hundred differencies of ours, but [...] lyes of his, and agayne do yow note for au [...] ­ding cauillations that I require two real [...] ­ferences in matters of beleef, for of other c [...]cumstances that touch not preciselie belie [...] our schooles and learned men lawfully m [...] haue diuersitie of opiniōs, as about the man [...] how bread is con [...]erted into Christs flesh the Sacrament, and other like, of which [...] of diuersities Tertullian spake a litle be [...]ore, [...] he said quaeramus à nostris, T [...]ul. cap. p [...]ced. quae salua fidei reg [...] quaestionem poss [...]nt deuenire. Let vs cal in questi [...] or dispute among our selues, and with [...] owne men (to wit Catholykes) such po [...] of religion, as may come in controuersie wi [...] ­out [Page 107] breach o [...] the integritie of the rule of fayth and with this only d [...]stinction of old Tertullian of the different disputing among Catholykes and heretikes, the one without touching the [...]ntegritie of the rule of fayth, the other di­rectlie opposite against that integritie, by this onlie, I say, all the vaine prating and babling of our aduersaries, that fil vp leaues with dif­ferences among our schoolemen is quite cut of, and they like barking dogs that haue we­ [...]yed them-selues in vayne may shake their [...]ares, and returne to ly downe in their ke­ [...]els againe, vntil an other fit of bawling be [...]ffred, and he that wil see an other like baw­ [...]ng whelp to O. E. repealed by a vaūt-curre, [...]d his chaps shut vp with the verie same di­ [...]nction,Aug. lib. 1. cōtra. Iulian. cap. 2. let him read S. Augustine against Iulian [...] Pelagian obiecting the same that O.E. doth [...]gainst Catholykes. Alia sunt (sayth S. Augustine) [...]uibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque op­ [...]ae regulae Catholicae defensores salua fidei compage [...] consonant, VVhat diffe­rences ther may be a­mong catho­likes. Salua fidei regula. & alius alio de vna re melius aliquid [...] & verius, hoc autem vnde nunc agimus ad ipsa [...] pertinet fundamenta. ‘There are other poynts [...]ong Catholykes) in which sometymes the [...]ost learned and best defenders of the Ca­ [...]olyke rule of fayth do disagree among thē ­ [...]ues, and one doth say better and more truly [...]haps then an other of the selfe same thing, [...] yet all without breach of the common [...]ke of fayth, but this whereof now we treat [...]gainst this heretyke Iulian) perteyneth to [...] very foundation of our fayth.’

[Page]Thus sayth he, and thus say we, and [...] further to O. E. that which foloweth in S [...] Augustine against Iulian, that he change [...] erroneous, and furious mynd in accusing many graue Fathers, Bishops, and Pastors, [...] the whole visible churche of that opprobrio [...] shame, wh [...]ch is proper only to heretyks wit of diuision, and dissention among them­selues in matters of fayth.

12 To the other iest & boyery that folowe [...] wherin he sayth that Catholyke men can [...] receyue their fayth frō the vniuersal church quia actiones sunt suppositorum, I might answe [...] this sentence quia omnia plena sunt [...]ultorum, [...] otherwise he pretending to make his adu [...] ­sarie a noddy, would neuer haue brou [...] foorth so noddilike an a [...]gument therby to i [...] ­crease the number of noddyes with additi [...] of his owne person, for who wil not [...] him a notorious Noddy who selling him-se [...] for a doughtie doctor,VVhether the vniuersal Churche may be said to teach or no. & deane of a Church [...] vnderstandeth not a proposition in Logi [...] & there [...]ore for his instruction I wil send h [...] to no higher a treatise for this tyme, ther [...] the introduction of Logique or summ [...] written by Toletus,Tolet. in trod. ad dia­lect. lib. 1. c. [...]3. where among other [...] ­uisions of terminus singularis, he shal fynd th [...] Collectiuus autem terminus est qui tantum plura [...] iuncta significat, vt Roma &c This I shal expo [...] after, when I shal shew that this definition Terminus ouerthroweth his obiection, & co [...]sequentlie that he is ignorant in ipsis termi [...] artis in the very termes of logique it selfe.

[Page 108]But yet in the meane space I deny not, but that the said proposition actiones sunt suppositorū, is true in it selfe,Arist. lib. 1. Metaph. c. 1. [...]. and founded in Aristotles Me­ [...] taphysikes, though Aristotle haue not the word supposi [...]orum, but singular [...]um, as the greeke word importeth, but all is one in our sense. And fur­ther I grant that this proposition is vsed by many schoole doctors for better explication of d [...]uers highest mysteries of diuinitie, and namelie of the blessed Trinitie, incarnation of our Sauiour, and others, as appeareth in di­uers places of S. Thomas,D. Thom. com. in lib. 1. Sent. dist. 5 q. 1. art. 2 & lib. 3 dist. 2. Idem part. 1. q. 34. art 5. & part. 3. q. 19. art. 1. though yet as it see­meth neuer read, and much lesse vnderstood by this rude O. E. as may appeare by his foolish application therof in this place, for that the meaning of this proposition according to Aristotle and schoolemen is that Actiones non sunt vniuersalium logicorum, which are otherwise called vniuersalia in predicando, such as are genus, species and the like, neyther yet are actiones vni­uersalum in essendo, as were those ideae platonicae, nor yet pa [...]tium conslituentium vel componentium, but only singularium, aut suppositorum, this is Ari­stotles meaning when he sayth actiones sunt sup­positorum, but what is any of this to our que­stion and speech of the vniuersal Christian Churche and her teaching, which Churche though in our speach she be called vniuersal collectiue for that she cōteyneth all Catholykes, yet is she reipsa, and in her selfe, truly and pro­perlie indiuiduum, and not vniuersale logicum vel platenicum, but only as is said vniuersale colle­ctiuum, defined before by Tol [...]tus, when he sayth: [Page] Terminus singularis collectiuus est, qui tantum plura coniunctè significat, which signifieth the compre­hension of many in it self, as Rome, London par­lament, cittye, churche, congregation, and the like, which according to logique are properlie particuler indiuiduals, and not vniuersals, though they conteyne ech of them a multi­tude in them, and in that sense may be called vniuersals, as the whole and vniuersal city parlament, common wealth &c. and they haue this nature that the actions of particu­lars conteyned in them, and authorized by the whole, do stand for the whole, and are said to be of the whole as the acts of Parlament in England, though they be done be particular men (and often tymes not by all) yet are they not called the actes of particular men, but of the whole parlament and the like of the actes of the cittie, or common wealth.

13 And further when such an act is deliuered to me by a particular man not in his owne name,Actes of par­ticular men attributed to the vvhole body. nor as his owne acte or decree, but as the act of the Parlament and in name therof, I may wel say that the Parlament deliuereth me the same, which I may also say when the cittie of London, the chācerie, the kings bench the court of wardes, or other cōmon bodyes maketh out any order though it be deliuered by particuler mē, yet is it the act of the whole vniuersal body, and so called and accounted, and not of the particuler men, that deliuer or execute the same, which being vnderstood let vs now come co the application of our parti­culer [Page 109] case of the vniuersal Churche her tea­ching, and therby discouer the deep lurking of our souldiour-masked minister.

When we Catholykes say that our fayth is 14 taught,The applica­tion of the former dis­course. or deliuered vnto vs by the vniuersal Churche, our meanings, that albeit particular men as Priests, Pastors, or preachers do imme­diatly deliuer the same vnto vs, yet for that they do yt not as of them-selues, nor as their owne, but from the said Catholyke vniuersal Churche, and by her order, we say truly and properlie, and cannot say otherwyse, but that we are taught it by thesaid vniuersal Churche, which is the body, and not by perticuler men which are parts only, euen as when a man stri­keth an other with his foot or hand, it cannot be said so properly that the foot or hand strook him, as the man him-self, and this ar­gumēt, rūnneth also in our aduersaries cause, yf he had wit to see it, for when a mā is taught at this day the protestant fayth of England al­lowed by the state, may he not say more truly and properly that it is the teaching of the vni­uersal Churche of England, then of this or that particuler contemptible minister? but this he foresaw not, when he came in with his actionis sunt suppositorum, & therby wil see what reason I had to ad stultorum, for so much as his obiection besydes the ignorance, and falshood therof, ouerthroweth no lesse him-selfe, and the teaching of his Church,Ignorance of O.E. yf it had any force & so much of this which indeed is ouer much for the fondnes of the instance.

[Page] 15 There remayneth then that part only of his babble where he cryeth out, that our religion is not Catholike, but his, and that ours is buylded only vpon Popes which are mutable and subiect to error & his vpon the eternal truth of God, &c. All which to yes though they haue byn sufficiently re­futed before, in that I haue alleaged, and a thousand tymes before that agayne by other writers, yet these men as hungry flyes beaten of from hunny do returne stil with the very same clamors agayne, for lack of other bet­ter matter, and heere yow see are two poynts the first, whether we or they be Catholikes, and then whether we depend of Popes, and they of God.

16 For the first which of our Churches is tru­ly Catholike much hath byn said (or at least­wyse may be gathered) by the former dis­course about the ancient rule of true Catho­like fayth,VVho are Catholykes. but more particularly it remayneth to be handled in this fellowes first new foo­lish chalenge added after this for Syr F. wher­fore heere I wil say no more of that mad paradox for which shame ynough abydeth O.E. in that, when I shal come to answere it.

17 Now for the second about our depending of Popes and they of God, and the scriptures, it hath appeared by the two or three precedēt chapters, how they depend ech man of their owne fancy and iudgment of scripture, and not of God, or godlines, and as for our depen­ding of Popes as heads successiuely of our Churche, we confesse it willingly, and do glory therin, that we are not heretical acheu [...] [Page 110] as our aduersaries are, but yet to meet with this prating calumniators exprobation we say that we depend not of any Pope as a priuate or particular man,Hovv Catho­lyke men de­pend of the Pope in their religion. and subiect to infirmities, eyther of ignorance, euel lyfe, or the like, but as he is head and cheife pastor of Christs vni­uersal Churche, Gods substitute vpon earth, to whom he hath assured the perpetual assi­stance of his holy spirit, and of the omnipo­tent power of his aeternal Godhead euen vn­to the worlds end, and by vertue of this pro­mis let Peters successor be neuer so vn [...]ear­ned, rude, feeble or infirme (as hardly can be chosen one meaner then himselfe was in all or most of these poynts (before he receyued vertue from his maister) yet shal his learning be incontrolable for gouernment of Gods Churche, taking that helpe by councels doc­tors & other learned meanes, which he may, (and Gods prouidence wil euer prouide that he shal do) his rudenes also shalbe wysedome, his feeblenes fortitude, his infirmity vertue, in respect of his place and dignity, and this did our ancient holy Fathers esteeme the matter, not by the talents or merit of the man as he­retikes bable but by his office, place, and dignitie.

As for example who knoweth not but that 18 Pope Damasus before mentioned in the de­cree of the three Emperors was not perhaps the learnedest man in the world, nor other­wise the best qualifyed for humayne giftes (though he were also a notable man) but o­ther [Page] might exceed him in these poynts. Yet do the said Emperors preferre him before all in directing men for their fayth and beleefe, as yow haue heard; S. Hierome also was farre more learned then he by studdy, as all men wil confesse, and himselfe also, for that he wrote often to S. Hierome to requyre his opinion in poyntes of learning, and yet when the matter came to determyne poyntes of fayth S. Hierome subiecteth himselfe to him, with that humility, as a chyld and scholler would vnto his father and Maister, and much more, for that he saith most absolutely in a most hard and perilous controuersie of that tyme not yet determined; to wit, whether one or three hypostacies, or subsistēces were to beholden in the Trinitie,The faith & humilitie of saynst Hier. epist. ad Damas. the most learned humble father I say writeth thus to Pope Damasus out of Syria, Obtestor Beatitudinē tuam vt mihi Epistolis tuis siue dicendarum siue tacendarum hypostas [...]on detur authoritas, I beseech your Hol. that yow wil giue me leaue, and authoritie by your letter to hold or deny three hypo­stacies.

19 Loe heere the different spirit in a learned humble Catholike saynct, from an ignorant prowd contemptuous heretike, S. Hierome regardeth not the personal partes of Pope Damasus, but his place, roome, and dignity of his office: our heretikes not only do con­temne his place, but also most maliciouslie do lode the persons of al or most Popes with in­finite calumniations and slaunders, therby to [Page 111] discredit their office and ordinances, what then may we say of these men but that they are gyuen ouer as S. Paul sayth in reprobum sen­sum to a reprobate sense, and synne malicious­lie, and desperately to rayle against their owne consciences, God amēd them, and let all wyse men take heed of them.

As for the last and lowdest [...] ly, which this 20 prating minister affirmeth,VVhether Catholyke religion be ful of nouel­ties and here­sies. to wit, that Ca­tholike religion is ful of new noueltyes, and old heresyes, this also is to be discussed in his foresaid chalenge when it commeth to be aunswered, wherunto I might remit the mat­ter, without saying any thing here, as I meane to do, but only to premonish the reader of two poynts, that there I am to handle, the first, that if this woodcock or any of his crew can shew any one noueltie (as an article of fayth in our religion which was not beleeued in the Apostles tyme, and in all ages since by the professors of the Catholike fayth, eyther explicite or implicite (as diuines terme it) we shal yeild in all the rest, for that we hold the foresaid rule of fayth deliuered by the Apost­les to haue byn ful and perfect, and that what­soeuer poynt of fayth hath byn determined of since, by general councels, confirmed by Po­pes, hath byn no new thing, but explication only of that which was before deliuered by the Apostles, albeit not so expreslie knowne to all.

In the second poynt also we hold that if O.E. or his mates, can shewe any one heresie, [Page] taken for an heresie by the general Churche since Christs tyme vnto Luthers, or after, to be holden by vs truely, and in the same sense wherin it was condemned for an heresy, and holden by those heretykes: if this I say can be truly shewed and not as this vice cometh in with fustian-apes for veluet telling vs a tale of the Coli [...]ridians that offred Sacrifice to the Virgin Mary, and other like, from whom he cannot deny, but that we differ most mani­festly (though his forehead be neuer so hard) If this I say can be prooued, that any one he­resy is truely among vs and not the simili­tude only or shadow therof, then wil we aske no further proof of any thing against vs, for that we hold absolutely that eyther all or none is trew in our religion: but on the contrary syde, we shal shewe, and demonstrate most clearely, that they hold many old condemned heresies, in the self same sense, wordes, and meaning, wherin they were condemned by the vniuersal Churche, & held by those here­tikes. And this is the true difference betweene vs and them, to wit, that they obiect to vs shadowes, and resemblances of heresyes, but we conuince them of true heresy in deed.

IT IS FVRTHER shewed by diuers cleare examples, that O. E. and his fellowes do playnly dispayre of all certayne meane or rule to try the truth among them-selues, or with vs. CAP. XVII.

NOtwithstanding that sufficient hath byn 1 said before in diuers chapters of this first encounter to shew that Protestants haue no sure rule or certayne meanes at all for agree­ment in matters of Religion,Sup. cap 3.4. 5.15 16. or for consent, or assurance therin, yet for so much as this is a most principal poynt to be wel vnderstood, & deeply pondered by euery man that loueth his eternal lyfe, and saluation, I haue thought good to treat one poynt more in this chapter, which is the confession of our aduersaries them-selues in this behalfe, though not in playne words, yet in manifest deedes which are not nor ought to be of lesse authoritie then wordes.

And first of all I wil shewe this by their pas­sing ouer without answere this whole matter (being the most principal of all this first en­counter) when the warder vrgeth them most earnestlie in the poynt it selfe, and both of them (I meane both the K^t. first, & the minister after him do answere directlie no one woord vnto the whole demonstration, which is a playne confession that they cannot answere [Page] it, but yet to shewe it more euidently, and to conuince them in this place, I wil repeate agayne what the warder said before.

2 ‘I would aske S. F. (sayth he) or any such man as he is,Pag. 4. that determineth so resolutely that his only religion among so many others (as are extant at this day) is true, and all others false; wheron doth he ground his certaintie?’

‘Tvvo vvayes of tryal pro­posed.Two onely meanes can S. F. haue to guyde himselfe in this case, first that he hath receaued this doctrine of such or such persons, prea­chers, ministers, or doctors, whose learning and knowledge in this behalfe he trusteth ab­solutely: and then is his whole fayth buylded vpon the credit of man, as is euident, and con­sequently is nothing worth, nor no fayth at all. The other way is, that he beleeueth it, for that it is founded in Scripture; but this way to S. F. must needs be as vncertayne as the other, yf not more, for that to be sure, that it is soundly groūded vpon Scripture, he must first read himselfe his whole beleefe expresly in Scriptures, which is much for a man of S.F. occupation to do, and then he must be able to iudge of many other poyntes, belonging to the same, as namely that the book is surely Scr [...] ­pture, that he readeth. And then that the tran­slation which he vseth is trulie made, out of the learned tongues Hebrew, Greeke and Lat [...]n: And lastly, he must be sure of the true sense and exposition, which also are hard matters for a man of S. F. learning, and much more for others that know lesse then he.’

[Page 113] ‘Yea and when all is done, yf he had all these helpes needful for such a matter (as he hath not) yet were it but a priuate mānes opiniō, & consequently his fayth should be grounded, but vpon his owne particuler iudgmēt, which maketh no fayth at all, but opinion only as often hath byn sayd, for that fayth must haue Gods expresse authoritie for her foundation.’

‘So that to conclude, the first blessing which 3 S. F. in particular thinketh to haue receaued by this change of his religion, is in effect, that whereas before when he beleeued the Ca­tholyke and vniuersal fayth of Christendome, deliuered vnto him by the vniuersal Churche, as founded on Scripture (which Churche Christ & his Apostles gaue him expresse com­mission to credit) his beleef was properly fayth, & founded vpon a rock, that could not fayle: now hauing left that fortresse, & cast him-self into the waues of new opinions, he hath nothing certayne at all but so much as he list to chose of him-self, or of other mennes opinions, which choise is properly called he­resie, for that the word heresy in Greek (as all learned men know) signifieth nothing els, but a certayne election, and choise in matters of Religion, to wit, when a man leauing the commō cōsent of the general Churche [...] oo­seth only to follow that which his owne pri­uate iudgment induceth him vnto.’

‘And to make this more playne, how all 4 these people haue no other rule of beleef,A playne de­monstration against sir F. but only what their owne fancy leadeth them [Page] vnto, I aske S. F. (not of any Catholyke Do­ctor, nor of any ancient Father, as S. Augustine, S. Ierom, or the rest, whom easely he would cō ­temne) but rather of his owne Doctors, Mar­tyn Luther, Iohn Caluin, Theodore B [...]za, & such others, whom he supposeth to haue byn seruants of God, and indued with his holy spi­rit & all the world knoweth that they were more learned then S. F. yet why should he beleeue his owne iudgement more then theirs in pointes of fayth? wherin they differ from him, as Luther about the real presence, and the number, and forme of Sacraments, and many other points, Caluyn in matter of the Queenes Supremacy which he denyeth. Beza in the whole gouernment of their Churche. Or why should I beleeue S. F. or his new masters of Englād, rather thē these that were more lear­ned then he or his? or what reason, rule, or foundation, haue any of these men to beleeue their owne opinion, more then others, but only self wil and fancy?’

‘5 This then is the first and greatest spiritual benediction (or malediction rather) that I fynd to haue happened to our realme, and na­tion by this wooful alteration of religion, that wheras before we had a direct rule, squyre & pole-starre to follow, which was the vniuersal Churche, now euery man being set at liberty, holdeth, beleeueth, and teacheth what he listeth. Nor is there any way or meane left to restrayne him, for straight way he appea­leth bodlie and confidentlie to the Scriptures, [Page 114] and there he wil be both maister and Pilot, & boteswayne him-self, to gouerne the bark at his p [...]easure, for he admitteth no iudge, no in­terpreter, no authoritie, no antiquitie, nor any other manner of tryal, which is the greatest madnes, and malediction that euer could hap­pen among men of reason.’

And the very same cause that moued the 6 Warder to be so liberal then in setting downe this poynt, hath moued me now to repeat the same againe in this place.

And what do yow think that the knight & his champion haue replyed to all this playne and manifest demonstration? would not yow think that both of them for their credits sake should haue buckled vp them-selues to ioyne in this yssue with the warder, shewing what certainty they haue, or which of the two wayes they wil take proposed by him, seeing he sayth there are no other, or that they should thē-selues at least appoynt some other way: but consider good reader the force of euident truth they are so blanked, and their mouthes so shut vp with this interrogation of the warder, as the K^t. thought it best to passe it wholie ouer with silence, as before hath byn touched: The minister with more shame then the K^t. hath tatled somwhat,Idle tatling in a grau [...] question. telling vs, that our religion is not Catholyke, that the vniuersal Church could not deliuer it vnto vs quia actiones sunt suppositorum (as yow haue heard) that Stapletō teacheth that the Churche hath power to proue, taxe, and consigne the [Page] books of holy Scripture. And that vniuersal tradition is the most certayne interpreter therof. And finally that the fayth of Papists is buylt vpon the Popes fancie and opinion, and it is ful of nouelties, and old heresies, and the like, as before yow haue heard.

7 All these tatlings he hath vpon this dis­course before rehearsed of the warder, and al­most in as many words as I haue recyted thē: but to the matter it selfe about certainty or vncertainty in religion ne griquidem: he ans­wereth no one word at all, only to the later parte, or appendix of the discourse where the warder sayth that to make the matter more playne, how protestants haue no other rule of beleef, he asketh S. F. not of any Catholyke Doctors, nor auncient Fathers, whome he esteemeth not, but of their owne new Do­ctors Luther, Caluyn, Beza, and the like au­thors of their owne sects, why English Pro­testants at this day should preferre their owne iudgments before these also, (whom they grāt to haue had great store of the holy ghost) in all matters, doctrines, and interpretation of Scri­pture, where they dissent from them.

8 To this I say (all the other storme being past) it seemed good to the minister to make his answere in these wordes.

But sayth this Noddy: why should yow beleeue more your owne opinions then Caluyn concerning the Q. supremacy, Luther concerning the Real presence, and Beza in the Churche gouernment? I answere, first that these mennes priuate opinions concerne not funda­mental [Page 115] poynts of fayth; Pag. 21. A most fool­ish ansvvere of O. E. about Lu­ther Caluyn &c. and therfore they are not to be brought foorth for instance in this cause where we talk of the foundations and reasons of Christian fayth. Marke wel his answere (good reader) & iudge who is the noddy, he sayth two things: the one, that the iudgments of Luther Caluin, and Beza be but priuate opinions among them; the other that the poynts wherin they differ from them to wit, the real presence in the Sacra­ment, her Ma^ties. Supremacy ecclesiastical, and the whole gouernemēt of the Churche are no fundamental poynts of their faith.

For the first I would gladly know what au­thority 9 is auayleable among them in teaching, preaching, and interpretation of Scriptures, yf Luther, Caluyn, and Beza be reiected as pri­uate and particuler men, where they differ from them? our Doctors and Churche they do defy, the ancient Fathers they look not willingly after them, their owne parlament this mā sayth a litle before doth not appoynt but admit their religiō only, who then is hee, or who are they that must determine, and de­fyne in this case? For the second, yf the diffe­rence with Luther about the real presence of Christs real body in the Sacrament, be no fundamental poynt of fayth (seing they ac­cuse vs of the highest cryme vnder heauen about the same, that is, of idolatry, and hol­ding a creature to be the creator, and we them againe of most heynous blasphemy & highest wickednes vpon earth in discrediting Christ in his owne words, that said it was his bodie, & [Page] his whole Church that euer so vnderstood him vnto this day) yf the matter of supremacy be no fundamental poynt of fayth,VVhat pointes are fun­damental in protestants doctryne. wherby all their ecclesiastical hierarchie standeth at this day in England as their Bishops Deanes, Arch­deacons, and other prelates, and parsons of the Spiritualty, who otherwise must needs be playne intruders, and meere lay men.

If their whole gouernmēt of their Churche be not fundamental wherof dependeth whe­ther they haue any true ministers, preachers and teachers lawfully allowed or no & con­sequentlie whether their Sacraments be Sa­craments and be administred by them that haue authoritie so to doe; if all these poynts I say be not fundamental in O.E. opinion, what are fundamental? And what Atheisme doth this Martial minister & diuels deane bring in vpon vs? But beleeue me (good reader) these good fellowes do only eate of the ministerie, and beleeue as please them; and this being a compagnion of many occupations, wil liue by that which wil yeild him most, & accor­ding to that also shal be his doctrine and be­leef.

10 Of their great grand-father fryer Martyn Luther he sayth here in the words folowing his former answere.Pag. [...]1. O. E. his con­temptious speach of Luther and Caluyn. VVe suspend our opinion and giue no approbation to Luthers opinion concerning the carnal presence of Christs body in the Sacrament, for that we see the doctrine to be newe, and not taught by the Apostolyke Churche, nay we find yt to be repugnant to the Apostles doctrine deliuered in Scriptures, &c. [Page 116] Marke the arrogancy of th [...]s petty chapla [...]n, we suspend, we see; we finde; who are those wee I pray yow? Oh that Doctor Martyn Luther were aliue againe to canuase this arrogant barking bastardly whelp of his, he would proue him but a very demy puppie. Of Cal­uyn he sayth: when Caluyn was better informed (about the Supremacy) he changed his style and re­tracted his opinion, but where and when, I pray yow? why haue yow not noted the place and tyme; for Caluyn was to great a man I trow to change style or retract opinions, were it neuer so false or impious, and whether he changed in this, let his Elizeus that had his cloke & spirit of wickednes double (I meane Theodor Beza) be witnes, who is more to be beleeued in this case then O. E. that is but a fugitiue of Ca [...]uyns campe, going about to betray his Captayne.

Lastlie about the gouernment, of his En­glish 11 Churche, he addeth concerning Beza:Pag. 22. I say that in external gouernment it is not necessarie that all Churches should concur and agree.

Loe his saying: and albeit he say madlie, yet I trust he wil not say but that in one and the selfe same Churche agreeing all in one true doctryne of Iesus Christ (as in the former leafe he affirmeth all sortes of protestants do) it is necessarie they agree in the substantial poynts at least of some gouernement among them-selues,Pag. 18. as for example,Atheistical Doctrine O.E. of some one head & the cheife members therof, as whether the Prince be supreeme head ecclesiastical, and [Page] may make Bishops, and whether the Bishops be true Prelates, and may make ministers, and whether they be of Gods or the diuels making that are so made, which is the proper contro­uersie betweene them of England, and Beza at this day, and was with Iohn Caluyn also while he lyued. To deny this I say, were a very mad new doctrine for souldiour O.E. to teach now vnder a ministers coate, to wit, that none of all these things are necessarie poynts of doctrine, but indifferent rather, and that in his Churche a minister, & a ministrel, a preacher, and a pyrate, a bishop and a byte­sheep, a deane, and a diuel are all one.

12 And that this fellow, and his compagnions haue no religion nor conscience in saying and denying,The Suruey of pretended holy disci­pline &c. printed by Io. VVolf. 159 [...]. cap 2 [...]. fol. [...]54. admitting or reiecting at their plea­sures, it may appeare by one of their publyke books printed, and set foorth against the pu­ritanes where they haue a whole Chapter of accusations against the said puritanes for reie­cting & contēning new ghospelling wryters of their owne when they make against them which yet yow see practised here by O. E. him-self though no Puritane, and that euen against the very cheife heads and syres of both their religions, Luther, Caluyn, Beza, yea some are of opinion that O.E. was the Author of that book wherin the Puritanes are so ea­gerly argued for this fault of cōtemning their owne wryters whē they make against them, though I cannot easely beleeue the same, for that it seemeth les fondly writtē in that kynd, [Page 117] then could be expected of this mānes shallow cacitie, that wrote this doltish answere to the Wardword, but be it how it wil yow shal see the Puritanes taken vp very sharply by protestants in that book, for reiecting both their owne authors, and auncient Fathers, which yet yow see this arrogant foole doth practise heere in the one (I meane touching their owne) and yow shal heare afterward how egregiously his fellowes d [...] the like in the other, that is to say, concerning the aun­cient Fathers. But first let vs see what is ob­iected to the Puritanes in the former poynt.

In a certayne place Pellican, Bullinger, Bucer, Il­lyricus, 13 Suruey c. 28. Pap. [...]54. and Musculus (all great Doctors among the Lutherans) being brought in against the Puritane doctrine, Cartwright answereth them thus;Puritans cō ­tēpt of their ovvne Do­ctors. If they were for one a hundred, they could not beare downe the Apostle, to wit, standing with him, as he presumeth.

But after these is brought in Luther him­selfe, interpreting a peece of Scripture other­wise then they would haue it, but they ans­were that his exposition is out of season. T. Cartvv li. 2. Pag. 313. & 314. Then is brought in Bishop Ridly, and brother Bucer great doers in K. Edwards dayes in England, but the first is dismissed, thus: Bishop Ridley being a partie in this cause ought to be no witnes, the second thus:Ibid. pag. 398. Bucer hath other grosse absurdityes, sometymes Homer sleepeth; his reasons are ridiculous, &c. Ie­wel and Fox do folow, but Fox is shaken of with this saying: that he took greater payne in his story to declare what is done, then how iustlie or vn­iustlie [Page] how conueniently or vnconueniētlie it was done. Iewel receyued this iyrke, as a contumely in­grauen in his tombe as the Protestant com­playneth. B Iewel calleth the doctryne of the ghospel wantonnesse. Ibi. Pag. 11 [...].

Finally they write thus of all the cheif En­glish protestants in K. Henry. K. Edward. Q. Mary and in this Q. tyme before them-selues: their knowledge was in part; T. Catvv. li. 1. Pag. 196. and being sent out in the morning or [...] the Sunne of the ghospel was rysen so high, they might ouer see many things, which those which are not so sharpe of sight as they were, may see, for because that which they want in the sharpnes of sight, they haue by the benefit, & clearnes of the Sunne and light greater then in their dayes.

Loe heere the growing and disagreeing protestant fayth, and euery man his new light and lanterne in his hand. Whosoeuer cometh after presumeth to see more then his fellow that went before him. Wher wil this matter end? but marke their wrangling spirites one within an other: the puritanes are sorely re­prehended for this contemptuous vsing their owne authors; but are the puritanes more ar­rogant or bolder in this poynt, then yow haue heard O.E. before, euen with the first parent of their profession?

14 As for the old Doctors of the ancient Cath. Churche,Suruey. Pag. 329. the foresaid book of protestāts, hath also a special chapter of examples of the Pu­ritanes contempt against them, calling S. Ignatius scholler to S. Iohn the Euangelist, a coun­terfet and vayne man, S. Irenaeus is reiected, except [Page 118] (sayth the Suruey) he wil frame his speech after the new cut, Sur. pag. [...]3 [...]. Annot Bezae in act. [...]4. & 1. Timoth. 5. euen according to Bezaes pleasure. Iustinus Martyr being vrged, that lyued presentlie after the Apostles, answere is made, that in the dayes of Iustine, there began to peepe out in the ministerie some things, Th. Cartvv. li 2. Pag. 621. which went from the simplicitie of [...]he ghospel. To S. Iustine is added S. Hierome, whom they answere thus: Corruption groweth in tyme, as the tymes are, so are they that lyue in them, there is not such sinceritie to be looked for at Hieroms hands, as from others that went before him. T. Cartvv. lib 1. Pag 103. Clement Anacletus, Epiphanius, Anicetus, Zozemenus Volutianus Ambrose and Augustine are cyted by Protestants against them;Contempt of old Doctors. Surv. Pag. 337 wherto they answere, the bringing of those authorities (against vs by protestants) is the moouing and summoning of hel, the tymes wherin these men liued were not pure and vyrgynlyke, Clement▪ Ana­cletus, An [...]cetus, are discharged for rogues, and men branded in the forhead, Epiphanius wrote according to the tyme he liued in, Ambro [...]e holdeth other things cor­ruptlie, Zozemenus, & Volutianus wrote not according to that which was, but according to the custome and manner of the age wherin they wrote, Augustines sen­tence (say they) yf it should be admitted would make a wyndow to bring in all popery. Loe these mennes spirit.

Doctor Whitgift vrgeth them with testi­monies 15 out of Pope Sixtus the Martyr, D. vvi [...]g. pag. 344. Pope Da­masus, S. Hierome, Zozemenus, and Socrates, they answere; two of them are counterfets: Damasus spoke in the Dragons voice, the best ground among men beareth thistles: those tymes were corrupt. Twelue other Doctors are alleaged together against [Page] them, but they answere, what then? yf they were for one a hundred, Surv. Ibid. they cannot counteruaile, truth must not be measured by the crooked yeard of men. Iosephus Iudaeus is cyted with great commendation of Eusebius, Beza answereth, he is ridiculous and foolish. The exposition of 7. greeke and latyn doctors is alleadged vpon certayne words in the Epistle to the Romanes,Cap. 12. vers. [...] qui distri­buit, &c. T. Cartvv. li. 3. Pag. 8. & 9. Cartwright con­temneth it and sayth that by strayning the text in steed of mylke they drawe out blood.

16 And generally this surueing protestant she­weth that the puritanes do contēne & con­dēne both Fathers & councels within the first 500. yeares, charging them with corruptiō, & fauouring Antichrist the Pope of Rome, allea­ging for this their owne wordes and sentēces, as this for example of Beza: The fathers (sayth he) in the first councel of Nice vnderlayd the seat of the harl [...]t. Pag [...]43. And T. Cartwright Beza his scholler; The fathers imagined fondly of Antichrist, they dealt like ignorant men: they were ouer-maistred of their owne affections: And then further of the Apostles tyme it selfe.Surv. Ibid. Although (sayth he) the tower of this Antichristian buylding was not then set vp, yet the foundation therof was secretlie layd in the Apostles tyme, &c.

I might passe further in raking this chanel of desperate contemptuous speaches of these new fantastical brethren against antiquitie, but what? do these protestant writers that gather these things against puritans amēd the matters themselues? No trulie: but rather do worse then they, or as bad, whensoeuer occa­sion [Page 119] is offred, and that they are so pressed with the fathers Authorities as they cannot shift them of with any sleight or subtile interpre­tatiō, wherof let the writings of Fulke, against D. Bristow, D. Allen, and others be witnesses, as Whitakers also against D. Sanders, who hath this general caueat,VVhit [...]k cont. sand. Pag. 92. if yow argue (sayth he) from the witnesses of men, be they neuer so learned and auncient, we yeild no more to their words in cause of fayth and religion, VVe per­ceaue. then we perceyue to be agreable to Scripture, neyther thinke your selfe to haue proued any thing though yow bring against vs the whole consent, and swarme of Fathers, except that which they say be iustified, not by the voice of men, but by God him­self.

Loe heere (good reader) ponder this with 16 they self and let vs make an end, consider what vnitie, or way to vnitie, what certaintie or meane of certainty haue these men, who disagree not only in poynts and articles of be­leef, but euen in the very principles, and first grounds, how to be tryed, who shal be wit­nesses, who iudges, who moderators, who in­terpreters, and lastly who shal determine the matter in such sort as other ther-vpon may be bound to obey:) all talk of Scriptures, and all appeale to Scriptures, but they agree not, nor euer wil, who shal geue the meaning of Scri­ptures; antiquitie they infame by obiecting corruptions, old Fathers and councels they disdayne, new Doctors of their owne they contemne, when they dissent from them, ours they hate, flye and detest, all parties do vrge [Page] the words of S. Paul to the Romaynes:Rom. 12. that Scriptures must be expounded according to the analogy, proportion, and rule of fayth, wherby they confesse yf yow marke, that Scriptures must be ruled by fayth, and not all fayth by Scriptures, but what fayth this is, which must be the rule for inter­preting Scriptures, this is not so easy to be agreed vpon, and for that each part hath a dif­ferent fayth, and consequentlie also a different rule of fayth (which in heretykes & sectaries is their owne brayne, in Catholykes the vni­forme cōsent of antiquitie) hervpon foloweth that the selfe same Scriptures are differentlie expounded by them and different collections made vpon them, each man according to his fayth and beleef, and so this rule with here­tykes is nothing els, but an endles laborinth, & them-selues do confesse it, and proue it also by experience, as may appeare by that which is said before in the 4. and 5. chapters of this en­counter about the euēt of their Councels, Sy­nodes and other meetings, and by other testi­monies of their owne Authors.

17 But for vpshot of this Chapter I meane to alleage then one only that hath written of late,Rob Robertson Anaba­ptist his meanes for tryal. & printed his booke in Hollād, his name is Robert Robertson a teacher as it seemeth among Anabaptists of that country, who complayning much that his people and other of the same new ghospel who agree as he sayth in one against the Pope and Papists, and all of them professe to follow only Scriptures, can neuer notwithstanding agree about the [Page 120] meaning therof, wher-vpon considering the great inconuenience and hurt that of this doth ensue, he hath thought vpon another meane of agreement, which is to make sute vnto the States to grant them leaue in some field or towne to assemble themselues seuerally, and to pray to God, first the one syde, and then the other, to obtayne some euident myracle for decision of their controuersies, and to know which syde should yeild to the other. And to the end that the diuel may not en­ter in or deceyue them with a false mira­cle, this man fayth, that he hath thought of one allowed and testified in Scripture it selfe, and such as the diuel cannot woorke, which is to make the Sunne to stād stil for a while, & therfore would haue both s [...]des seuerally to pray for this myracle, and therby end their controuersie, nothing doubting but that God (they being so special seruants of his) wil of his great goodnes condescend vnto their petition in so iust and necessarie a de­mand.

Heere (loe) is this mannes opinion for the meane to try out truth among them after lōg proof that Scripture alone wil not do it, yf O. E. and his compagnions wil accept of his offer to go and pray with them in the feilds of Holland to stay the Sunne, they may chance to agree together at the next new moone, to whose wanes and changements I leaue both them and the progresse of their religion, and meane only to say a [Page] fewe words more about the fruits of good works and temporal benedictions, and so to end this first encounter, wherin I haue byn ouer long already.

OF THE FRVITES OF vertue and good workes praetended to haue followed by change of religion: as also of eyght temporal inconueniences which may be called curses, or maledictions insued by thesame, and how O.E. behaueth him▪selfe in this controuersye. CAP. XVIII.

1 THow wilt not forget (good reader) I hope how in the tenth chapter of this Encounter we examined the fourth blessing of the new ghospel assigned by S.F. to be good lyfe,En. 1. cap. 10. and holy woorks of Protestants aboue other men (for otherwise it could be no special blessing of their ghospel) where I shewed first that seing this blessing was testified only by them-selues, & not by their neighbours that liued with them, and ought to feele the effect [...] of this blessing, it was vayne and rather to be esteemed a brag then a blessing, which I con­firmed, for that the warder comming to th [...] immediates, and particulars, wherin, and b [...] what meanes good workes might be tryed, & [Page 121] discerned, whether protestants, or Catholykes abound more in them, the K^t. slippeth a syde, and letteth passe the whole declaration of the warder without so much as a beck or nod at it, for which respect I haue thought conueniēt to repeat thesame agayne in this place in the Warders owne words (for that they are not many) and to see at least what the Aduocate minister supplyeth for his Cliēt the K^t. in this behalf, thus then wrote the warder.

‘After assurance, stabilitie, and vnion in be­leef,2 the next greatest spiritual benedictions that can be expected of any doctrine,Pag. 6. VVhat effe­ctes of vertue nevv reli­gion hath vvrought. are the good effects of vertue which it worketh in mennes mynds & manners, as it was foretold by Esay the Prophet, that Christs doctrine, should so alter mens conditions and natures, that such as were most fearce, sauadge, and wicked before should by this doctrine be­come most humble,Esa 11. kynd and gentle. The wolfe (sayth he) shal dwel with the lambe, and the parde shal lye with the goate, the calfe, lyon, and sheep shal abyde together: and a litle chyld shal be able to go­uerne them all.’

‘Wel then: hath the protestants doctryn 3 wrought these effects of peace, meeknes, man­ [...]uetude and agreement? I haue touched be­ [...]ore the bloody tragedyes raysed in France, [...]landers Scotland, and other places, vpon the [...]rst rising therof, I might ad Switzerland, and [...]ermany, where their owne stories do testifie [...]at aboue a hundreth thousand people were [...]ayne within one yeare, by the rebellion and [Page] warres of the coūtrymen against their lordes,Sledan. for the controuersie of religion: such humilitie obedience, and meekenes of hart imprinted presentlie this new doctrine when it came.’

‘4 But let vs see other effects, Christs do­ctrine exhorteth to penance, to mortification of the flesh, to continency, virginity, fasting, praying, almes voluntarie pouerty, renoun­cing of the world, and the lyke. Are there more of these effects now adayes in England, or before? or are their more in Syr. F. and his men, then in ours? doth he and his ghospellers pay their debts better then Catholykes doe, or keep better houses, or more hospitalitie, or rayse their rents lesse, or take lesse fynes, or vse their tenants better, or lend their neighbours more money without vsurie? or do they help to marrie more poore mennes daughters, and other such lyke good works of charitie?’

‘Is pryde in apparel, gluttony, dronkennesse, lecherie, swearing, and forswearing, coue­tousnes, crueltie, falshood, deceipt, theeuerie, lack of conscience, oppressing of poore men, more or lesse now adayes in vre or before, when yet this change was not made? Let S. F. answere me to this, and not he only but the whole country round about him, and then let him tel me with witnesses, whether they be spiritual blessings or curses that haue ensued vpon this change of religion, so much com­mended by him, and so I shal passe to weigh his temporal benedictions, which perhaps he esteemeth farre more thē these spiritual.’ Thus he.

[Page 122]To all this treatie of the fruits of vertue, & 5 vertuous lyfe in Protestants, S. F. answereth not so much as one lyne, and therfore his pra­ting Proctor to helpe out his maister must needs bestyrre him-selfe to say som-what, but how fit to the purpose, and state of the question his owne words shal shew, for thus he beginneth.Pag. 23. I answere (sayth he) that the do­ctrine of the ghospel hath wrought good effect in all true Christians, and albeit euery one do not so square their liues according to Gods lawe, as they should, yet com­part our people with the Papists, nay with the Priests, and Popes them-selues, whom they call most holy, For his of­fice and not for his per­son. I make no question but they do sarre excel them.

Loe heere this fellow is quick, and reso­lute,6 he maketh no question of that which is most in question, or rather which is all the question, whether protestants in all countryes where they lyue be of better lyues generally then Catholykes, or that which is the same in effect, (but yet more easie to be discerned,) whether the world since the rising of Luther and Caluins new doctrine (which this man calleth the ghospel,Sup. cap 17. nu. 10. though before he haue cō ­demned the same in diuers poyntes as yow haue heard) the manners of men haue byn ge­nerally better or worse, for that according to the warders discours [...] & Christs owne words true relig [...]on, and reformation, bringeth euer with it better lyfe, and behauiour of men, this then is the true state of the question whether protestants religion haue done this or no, wherof we haue shewed the negatiue part [Page] before out of their owne wryters, and the meanest man, woman, or chyld that lyueth at this day, yf they haue heard of things past, or can behold matters present with any iudge­ment, wil easely discerne. Yet this resolute Minister, (as yow see,) maketh no question to the contrarie, and so from this general asser­tion passeth on to prayse exceedinglie the cle­mencie, and vertue of protestant Princes, and then turneth he to the contrarie (which is his only plausible common place to dilate, and delight him-selfe) I meane against Rome and her Popes: But the whorish synagoge (sayth he) of Rome yow must not maruaile of the speech (for that whores and knaues in his ministerie do oftē meet) shee is red with the blood of saincts, no tyger was euer more fearce and cruel.

7 Thus in general, and then layeth he load vpon Popes, Card. Priests, monasteries, both of men and women, and for proof therof brin­geth out Boccas an old bawdy Italian Poet, & Pallengenius an other, as lasciuious in heresie, as the other in Lecherie, and besyds this he ci­teth also a worke without an author called Onus Ecclesiae wherin many abuses in lyfe and māners by way of compassiō are complayned on with desyre of amendment, and with this doth the minister think that he hath played the man, and proued sufficientlie that the new ghospel hath brought in great reformation of lyfe, and manners, and that now the world goeth better then before, for good works: wherin (as I said) the best iudge may be the [Page 123] common sense, feeling, and experience of men that lyue in the world, for that descen­ding to particulers, in so long a circuit as is the world, is both infinite, vncertayne and odious; yet yf I would follow this fowle mou­thed minister in ripping vp vnsauery matters, of his cleargie as he fayneth, & amplifyeth of ours I might go but to publike recordes of his men punished by publike iustice for their out­ragious behauiour in that behalfe, I meane in that very point of carnalitie, which they most obiect to ours in most false manner, and for auoyding wherof in them-selues each one of them haue allowed his remedy most desyred, called by them-selues his vessel of ease, though with no smal disease and disaster of the com­mon wealth as before hath byn shewed.

But to leaue this poynt, and to come to the 8 second which is about the temporal respects, whether the new ghospel and change of old religion haue brought losse or gayne hurtes or benefits, conueniēces or inconueniences in this behalfe, the matter is not much more doubtful then in the former conference of good lyfe and works. For albeyt both the K^t. and his procter do put downe certayne tem­poral benefits as blessings receyued by their new ghospel, yet are they both light & vayne in them-selues and not agreeing betwene them-selues, neyther do they satisfie or ans­were the great hurts and inconueniences set downe on the contrary side by the warder towards the end of this his first encounter, [Page] which being very weighty and of great con­sideratiō the K^t. leapeth ouer thē altogeather, as before hath byn signified, but the minister chattereth here and there after his fashon, but far from answering any substantial point therof, which thing to the end yow may the better perceyue, I shal take payne to repeat againe in this place the former hurts receyued by chāge of religion mētioned by the warder in these words.

‘9 For better vnderstanding of the contro­uersy in question,Pag. 7. and 8. men are wont to bring into consideration two poynts.Temporal effects by change of re­ligion. First what is likely to haue byn or fallen out yf the change of reli­gion had not byn made in her Ma^ties. tyme, and then what hath insued vpon the change made. To the first they say that if as her Ma^tie. entred most happily and ioyfully into the crowne of England by general consent of all and pro­moted especially by the peculiar forces of Ca­tholyks that were at that day most potent without comparison, and that as her Ma^tie. entred Catholikely that is to say shewing her selfe in all points of religion and behau [...]our a Catholyke according as she had done also be­fore in her sister Q. Maryes raigne, and was now crowned and annoynted Catholikly by a Cath. Bishop at a Cath. masse and other like circumstances, yf she had continued that course stil, & not yeilded to the persuasions of some new councelours against the iudgment of all her o [...]d (as indeed she was hardly brought [...]o yeld ther-vnto at the beginning, [Page 124] for that she foresaw by her wisdome, diuers of the inconueniences that sithēce haue ensued,) then say these men yf this had byn so, both her Ma^tie. and the realme had byn most happy at this day, and in particular they alleadge these benefits following, which of all probability would haue fallen vpon vs.’

This is the Warders profer in this behalf,10 and then do ensue,The vaine chatte [...]ng of O.E. 8. special considerations of moment to be wayed in this affayre, which after we shal lay forth and examine in order. But now to consider the chattering of our parrat minister for denial of all these things, I can noe wayes make yow better apprehend yt then to tel yow of a certayne commedy which once I saw in Venice (yf wel I remēber) wherin the Vice of the play had taken for his inuention to contradict euery thing that his fellow should say, and so when the one said good morrow to the people, the other said good euen, when one said it was a fayre day, the other it was a foule when the one said it was noone, the other answered it was night, when the one af­firmed that the Sunne shyned cleerly the other would needs hold that it was the moone, and so he passed forward in contradicting all that the other affirmed, vntil the people being wearyed, cryed out that the foole should be thrust downe for he marred the play.

And this is our case now O.E. is set vpon a new deuise to drop denials with his aduer­sary, and to contradict whatsoeuer he saith, or howsoeuer: yow haue hard what the warder [Page] hath wrytten in this his preface, harken then how this fellow cōtradicteth and with what, and how good reasons.

The Warder saith that her Matie. entred most happily and ioyfully to the crowne of England by ge­neral consent of all. A compa­rison of a vice in a play The minister saith it was not so, for that it greeued the Papists exceedingly. The other said: she was promoted especially by the pe­culiar forces of Catholyks that were at that day most potent without comparison, Pag 2 [...]. this man denyeth it & giueth this goodly reason: what needed force if all were willing she should be crowned. The other saith further that her Ma^tie. entred Catholikly, shewing her selfe in all points a Catholyke. This fellow denyeth yt with this reason: For if she had so done, why should the popish prelats feare any alteration. The Warder furthermore saith: she was crowned and annoynted Catholikely by a Catholyke Bishop, at a Cath. masse. O. E. denyeth all, and sayth: she declared plainly, she would not masse: which how loud a ly yt is, not only her Ma^tie. can testifie, but as many as yet liue, and were present at that act, and him-selfe pre­sently touched (as yt were) with some shame of this asseueration, addeth: But were yt true, yet his coniecture of happines is vayne, &c. Wher­vnto I answere, that yf it were true, then was O.E. false in denying yt: and as for the vanity of the coniecture: that yf masse and old re­ligion, had byn continued in England, many inconueniences had byn auoyded, we shal try the matters in the particulars that doe ensue, but in the meane space, consider the vanity of [Page 125] this vice for bringing in for instance to the contrary Francis, Charles, & Henry Kings of Frāce, the States of the low countreys & the people of Portugal, who haue fallen into diuers troubles, warres and disasters not-withstanding they contynued the masse and were Catho­lyks in religion. But I would aske O. E. whether these troubles came by their chaūge of religion or noe? For yf they did not, then are they impertinent to our purpose, which is to shew that by change of religion commonly do ensue troubles, but not that only by this meanes disasters are incurred, as though there were no other, for that Catholyke Princes & people also may incurre troubles by other meanes, then by change of religion, but they auoyd those which this change doth bring with yt.Change of religion in France and Flanders. Wherfore this noddy is discouered to speake nothing to the purpose in bringing in those fiue examples wherof foure not-with­standing are wholy against him-selfe, for that all the troubles which he mentioneth to haue happened to Catholyke Princes and people in France and Flaunders haue byn occasioned by change of religion inforced vpon them by others, as the world knoweth, and not by [...]heir owne willes, and so hauing seene what [...]his minister hath answered to the Warders [...]reface of temporal hurts we may imagine [...]ow substantially he wil satisfie afterward [...]o the points them-selues, wherof the first [...]ower are those that follow.

‘And first (saith the warder) yf religion had 12 [Page] not byn chaunged her Ma^tie. at this day had had a most f [...]orishing Kingdome,VVarnvvord Pag. 8. vnited both to her and amonge them-selues in religion,Strength and felicity by vnion. iudgment, affection, fidelity and frend- [...]hip as other realmes Cath. of the world are seene to bee, & as ours for aboue a thousand yeares to­geather with much honour and felicity is knowne to haue remayned.Security. Heerof had ensued that none of these feares and terrors of con­quests, inuasions, assaults, treasons, conspira­ties & the lyke, which this VVach-man endea­uoreth to lay before vs, had euer come in con­ [...]ideration for that England vnited in yt selfe, hath euer synce it was a monarchy made other Kingdomes and prouinces round abou [...] yt to feare her forces (as by matters happened in France Ireland, and Scotland for many ages is euident) and she neuer greatly feared any.’

‘13 Thirdly, England had had her Ma^tie. at this day by all likelyhood a ioyful mother of many faire and princely children;Issue of her Maiestie. for that the prin­cipal cause of her graces not marrying is to be presumed to haue proceeded of the differen [...] religion of forrayne princes, who desired th [...] same on the one side: and one the other th [...] inequality of blood in her owne subiects for such aduancement.’

‘For to attribute this great resolution of he [...] Ma^tie. to the only loue of sole lyfe and mayd [...]-head I doubt how yt can be iustifiable, sein [...] that amōg Catholyks where such profesio [...] is more praysed and practised, they vse some­tymes [Page 126] to draw out euen vowed nunnes from [...]heir cloysters to marriage, for so weightie a [...]ause, as is the sauing of succession in so great a [...]rowne as England is knowne to be. And [...]mong Protestants virginity is not of that ne­ [...]essity or meryt, as for yt to incurre so great [...]conueniences, notwith-standing the base [...]nd seruile flattery of this crouching Knight, [...]ho casteth in now and then the memory of [...] mayden Queene without respecting the [...]eadly wound which his countrey receyueth [...]erby.’

‘Foorthly of this had followed the sure esta­ [...]ishment 14 of the succession of this imperial [...]owne in the blood and race of the vnited [...]yal houses of York and Lancaster,Establishmēt of successiō. and of [...] l [...]ne of the noble K. Henry the 7. which [...]ne being now to end with her Ma^tie. in the [...]rect discent is lyke to bring great daungers [...] the realme. For albeyt there want not of [...]llateral branches, yet their causes are other­ [...]ayes so implicated for diuers [...]espects, but [...]ecially by difference of religion (which had [...]uer happened yf the chaunge had not byn [...]ade) as no man can tel what wilbe the end, [...]d most men do feare extreame calamityes [...]erby:’

Thus saith he. Wher-vnto for the first two 15 [...]ints our minister answereth nothing in [...]ect,First & secōd inconue­nience feare & daunger. but that the VVarder mistaketh S. F. meaning, [...] think him to haue spoken any thing of feare, ey­ [...] of forrayne inuasions or domestical treasons: but [...]at is this to the purpose, had yt not byn [Page] better, that all this had byn aduoyded? Bu [...] heare him further.Pag. 30. But suppose (saith he) Poper [...] had byn continued, how could this noddy haue giuen [...] warrant, that we should haue byn neyther oppug [...]e [...] by enemyes abroad, nor by traytors at home? VVa [...]n [...] Henry the 3. of France excommunicated by the Pop [...] oppugned by his subiects, & murdered by a Dominica [...] fryar, notwith-standing his zeale in popery?

16 Marke heere the mannes wit, there be tw [...] parts of his demaund, the first: how the Wa [...] ­der could warrant, &c. wher-vnto is easi [...] answered that such hurts as came by alterati [...] of religion, as diuision of mynds, iudgemen [...] and affections, &c. had byn easily warrante [...] yf religion it self had not byn altered.

17 The second part about K. Henry the thir [...] of Fraunce is ridiculous,About Hēry late K. of France. for he was not trou­bled for changing of religion him-selfe, b [...] for being presumed to fauour them vnder-ha [...] that meant to change religion, & for the dea [...] of noble Princes as all the world knowet [...] hauing (as diuers write) giuen his oath, a [...] fidelitie to the contrary, and receyued the S [...] ­crament for confirmation therof; and yet yt eyther presumption or ignorance in t [...] compagnion so bodly to affirme that the Po [...] did excōmunicate the said King for this fa [...] which excommunication no man euer y [...] saw published.

18 To the third principal poynt about the pr [...] ­bability of noble issue in her Ma^tie. yf chan [...] of religion had not byn;Inconue­nience lack of i [...]sue royal this parasite pr [...] ­leth as yf he were Iack daw, shewing wil [...] [Page 127] talke, but lacking wit to say any thing to the [...]urpose, telling vs only, that yf it had pleased [...]er Ma^tie. to haue married, she might as wel [...]aue marryed in protestant religion, as in Ca­ [...]holyke, and that their women may haue fayre [...]rincely children, as wel as ours, and that [...]uers Cath. Princes did seeke her marriage, [...]nd amongst others the K. of Spayne. And [...]hat the french K. sister at this day is marryed [...]hough she be a protestant, and that Q. Mary [...]as marryed and yet had no children, and di­ [...]ers other such trifling toyes, which we deny [...]ot but say that they are impertinent, and [...]o not touch the substance it selfe of the [...]atter meant by the Warder, which is that [...] a Cath. state there would haue byn other [...]anner of instance made to her Ma^tie. & other [...]ounsel and resolution of learned men layd [...]efore her for her obligation to marry in such case for sauing of a common wealth and for [...]ntinuance of royal issue in thesame then [...]otestants are wont to doe, as by the exāples [...]eadged by the Warder is euident.

And to this the minister saith nothing at 19 [...],Inconue­nience Suc­cession not established. as neyther to the fourth about establish­ [...]ent of succession which he saith could not [...]ue byn, but by allowance of the Pope, and [...]at this had byn dishonorable to her Ma^tie. [...]d intollerable to the state, to bring so great a [...] to submit her-selfe to so base a slaue (marke [...]e impotent rayling of an abiect parasite,Pag. 3 [...].) [...] of him to receyue her right to the crowne. And [...]en he passeth further to the matter of state, [Page] saying: But let vs suppose her Ma^tie. should leaue [...] issue behynd her, is she the first that hath byn in [...] case? No, S. Minister, nor wil not be the last but what doth this remedy the inconueniēce Heare him further.Pag. Ibid. And is there noe remedy eythe [...] by lawes already prouided, or by wise men to be deuis [...] but that we must needs fal by the eares togeather (about this matter of succession) This is [...] supposition of their noddy our aduersary, &c.

20 God graunt S. Minister he proue a nodd [...] for his feare with-out fondation:VVho is the noddy. but ho [...] great a noddy yow are in the meane space, [...] setting so light by the matter and disputing [...] fondly as yow do all men see. But whe [...] yow ad further to make your aduesar [...] odious:Pag. 22. that he percase desyreth some garboyle [...] England to gratifie the Infanta, & the Spaniard w [...] slaue he is. VVho are like to desyre more gar­boyles in England. yf he be the man whome yo [...] would haue vs to weene, yt is very w [...] knowne, that he setteth lesse by the greate [...] benefite or promotion that England or Spai [...] ioyned togeather, can giue him, then yow [...] by the least benefice of the diocesse wher [...] yow dwel, and are a proling minister, a [...] much more slaue were your to yow late [...] the Ea [...]le of Essex running vp and downe [...] by sea and land after him to gaine so [...] scrappes at his hands for your maintenanc [...] and yow wife with her veluet hood, th [...] this mā hath shewed him-selfe to the great [...] Princes in Christendome, with whome [...] hath dealt in furderance of Cath. religion: a [...] which of yow two hath desyred more ga [...]boyles [Page 128] in Englād eyther he by the lady Infanta or yow by your Lord Essex, the euents haue shewed, he being a man that cannot grow by garboyles, and yow a broken compagnion that cannot wel remedy your needs but by in­nouations, and with this I leaue yow, and wil passe to the other foure inconueniences layd downe by the warder.

‘Fifthly (sayth he) yf religion in England 21 had not byn changed,Inconue­niēce, vnion vvith Rome & Sea Apo­stolyke. we had had no breach with Rome, nor consequently had the excom­munication followed, wherof so great noise hath byn made in the world abroad, and so great trouble at home. And what the vnion [...]nd frendship of the Bishop of Rome may [...]mport, euen as a temporal Prince, the effects [...]hewed of late in France, where especially [...]y his endeauour and authority matters haue [...]yn compounded, that seemed very hard and [...]esperate before, not only betwene that King and his owne subiects but also be­ [...]wene that crowne and Spayne and the [...]ates of Flaunders, which without such an [...]byter and vmpire would very hardly euer [...]yn accomodated.’

‘Sixtly England had continued in her ould 22 [...]ncient amity and leagues most honorable [...]ith Spayne & Burgundy,Auncient leagues. & with their de­ [...]ndants, and consequently had auoyded all [...]ese long and costly warres, which by that [...]eache we haue byn inforced to main­ [...]yne with losse of so many worthie men [...]d expence of so great treasure, as easily [Page] may be imagined, and the quarrel not yet ended.’

‘VVarres abroad.Seauenthly so great & bloody warres and tumults in Christian Kingdomes round about vs had neuer happened, as before in part hath byn declared, and euery man doth impute the principal causes and motions therof vnto the diuersity of religion in England.’

‘23 And lastly most doleful al [...]erations in our owne countrey had byn auoyded,Damages receyued at home. as the de­priuation in one day of all the sacred order of Bishops in England with their perpetual imprisonment, for that they would not sub­scribe to this vnfortunate chaunge of religion wrong out in parlament, as al men know, by the oddes only of one or two voyces of lay men. The disgracing and abusing of so many noble houses with ouerthrow of others wherof let Norfolk, Arundel, Northumberland, Oxford, VVestmerland, and Dacres, giue testimony [...] for of the rest I wil not make mention, seing perhaps them-selues would be loath I should all which had passed otherwyse by probabi­lity if religion had not byn altered. The con­tinual and intollerable affliction also of s [...] many honorable and worshipful gentleme [...] had neuer happened for perseuering in the [...] Fathers faith, wherto our countrey was fir [...] conuerted from infidelity, without any othe [...] offence obiected, or to be prooued again [...] them, but only refusing to accōmodate the [...] selues to this change. The torturing, hangin [...] and quatering of aboue a hundred Priests f [...] [Page 129] the same cause; the most of them good gent­lemen and youthes of rare wit, learning and other parts, which other common welthes would highly haue esteemed, and so would ours too in tymes past, and wil agayne in tyme to come, when these blasts shal once be ouerblowen. Thus farre the Warder.’

All which poynts O. E. answereth with 24 shifts and sle [...]ghts as the former, and first to the fifth about breache with Rome, he sayth VVhat more absurd thē to obiect the breache with Rome when we esteeme that to be one of the greatest blessings that euer happened to this land. To the other point mentioned by the Warder of the late peace made in Fraunce betweene those Monarches by the Popes mediation, the minister saith no­thing for that came not to his purpose, yet he telleth vs againe heere now, that Henry the third late K. of France and the late Duke of Ferrara and other Princes of the Popes religion, were not-with-standing that, troubled by the Pope. A wise argu­ment, as though there were noe other cause for which the Pope might fal out, with any Prince, or punish him, but only for chaūge of religion. But this is the manner of this mānes arguing, and with these manner of elenches,, [...]aralogismes, and other deceytful shifts of [...]ophistry, this fellow and his companions de­ [...]eaue the simple.

To the sixt about old ancient amity and 25 [...]eagues with Spayne & Burgundy he answereth [...]us:Inconue­niēce, breach of ancient leagues and amity. As if yt were not more hurtful to the Spaniard [...] break with vs, then for vs to break with the Spa­niard. [Page] This (as yow see) is answered more like a souldiar then a minister. [...]g. 3 [...]. The last two points are in effect denyed by him, to wit that eyther the diuersity of religion in England hath byn cause of the warres and tumults round about vs (which yet Fraunce, Flaunders and Scotland do testifie how true or false it is) or that any do­leful alteratiōs haue byn made at home, which he saith is lyke that the warder [...]eemeth to haue byn hired to speak in a lamentable voice, and to shed some few teares for compassion of the domages receyued both by cleargy and nobility, and the deathes of so many Priests as haue byn executed for religion: which he with a lōg ydle discourse wil needs goe about to prooue, that they were truly traytors both by our common, ciuil, and imperial lawes.

26 But this extrauagant excursion of his about those late martyrs, I am to answere afterward more at large in his new chalenge, wheras he maketh this one of his articles, that our Priests dy not for religion, but for treason. And albeit future ages wilbe more indifferent iud­ges in this matter, as more free from passion therin, yet to vnderstand better the state of the question, I would aske of this wyse states­man & lawyer, (as he maketh him-selfe) who both heere and euery where els calleth me noddy, whether yt be lawful to all s [...]ates, ha­uing taken to them-selues a forme of religion to make any articles of the opposite religion matters of tr [...]ason? And whether yt had byn lawful to Catholyks in Q. Maries dayes, so to haue done against protestants? and whether [Page 130] the treasons so made be true, and properly treasons, and the offenders rightly to be called traytors? And when he hath answered me this,VVhether our Priests be traytors or martyrs. and I shal haue prooued to him out of their owne wryters and chroniclers (as I can) and by their owne publyke records, that this is the state of our question with them, & that many or most of our Priests haue byn exe­cuted only for those articles of treason that were so made; then wil yt be easy to iudge and discerne what kynd of traytors they are, who for those transgressions haue byn put to death and executed. Then wil all this vayne fellowes babling out of books of imperial and comon lawes about treasons of other kynds be quite cut of, and proued childish and to no purpose.

Wherfore to draw at length to an end of 27 this Encounter, I doubt not (good Readers) but thow doest see by thy wisdome, how not-with-standing the double reply made by the K^•. and minister the warders discourse about these blessings and curssings remayneth yet whole and firme. And albeit the minister hath brought more words thē the K^t. yet no more substance but rather lesse, and both of them much fraud and folly, as in the admonition following in part shal appeare.

THE VVARNING and admonition to Sir F. H. and his frendes, as also to his aduocate & proctor O. E. vpon the first Encounter of blessings. CHAP. XIX.

1 AND now for the conclusion of this En­counter I think is not amisse, to the end that this my answere and reioynder (which I call a Warn-word) may do his duty and per­forme so much as the name and title impor­teth, I am to bestow vpon the K^t. in this place a breife and frendly admonition or warning, wherby he may him-self (yf passion wil suffer him to see the truth) or others at least wayes that are more indifferent & lesse passionate in the cause then he, cōsider the difference of our manner of proceeding in this affayre, to wit, the plaine and round dealing on our side going directly to the matter, and the shifting and shufling, on his to auoyde due trial, and how that with no probability of reason or truth can he stand in the controuersy taken in hand of his blessings brought in by change of religiō, his defence wherof is so impertinent, false and from the matter, as before yow haue seene, yet for better memories sake, and for some aduer­tisment to the K^t. to look ouer his owne faults I shal breefly heere put him in. mynd of that which hath passed in this Encounter.

[Page 131]First the charge of notorious flattery in bragging 2 of so many blessings come to England by change of religion, seemeth to ly stil vpon him more heauy then before, for that he hath answered substantially to noe one argument of his aduersary to the contrary and the shift of passing ouer whole treateses and discourses of the warder (yea foure or fiue as is prooued) without any reply or mention,Cap. 1 [...]. argueth great weaknes in his cause. The other shift also of excusing his flattery by the flattery of Cano­nists (yf it were true) is very vayne and ri­diculous.

The new ten deuised blessings are such & 3 so poore,Nevv de­uised bles­sings. as noe man would haue brought them in but he that eyther for lack of iudg­ment, decerneth not, what is for him, nor what is against him, or whome necessity for­ceth to expose him-selfe to the laughter of all men. For who wil, not laught to see vnity brought in for a blessing among protestants that cold neuer yet agree in the poynts of their religion, nor euer wil, or can, and whose badge of dissension and disagreement is so notorious aboue all other heretyks before them?Vid. cap. 3. [...]. 5. & 6. Who wil not laugh also and bite his lip to see good woorks & abstayning from persecution assi­gned for two other peculiar blessings, consi­dering what passeth in England and what in other countreys. I passe our the rest as false or foolish or both, vntil I come to the tenth, that is copious generation of children, which in respect of the marriage of their friars, monks [Page] & ministers, we yeild vnto them, but deny it to be a blessing especially to those parishes, that by force are cōstrayned to maintayne their co­pious brood & of spring: & to this I cal to wit­nesse the Churche-wardens & parishioners.

4 This then is folly to bring in such sorts and sutes of blessings as euery chyld may see there vanity and laugh at them. But that which ensueth of frau [...], fleights and deceyts is farre worse,Variety of shifts. which may be discouered by the variety of shifts noted in his whole discourse, as na­mely that which was last recyted of passing ouer and dissembling all his aduersaryes prin­cipal arguments, reasons, & allegations with­out mention at all, or els mentioning them only in a word or two without further ans­were; in lyke manner his not quoting places of books or chapters, of the authors which he cyteth when he wil deceaue, is a new trick neuer vsed perhaps before by any that hath written of controuersies, though the other of misalleadging, corrupting, peruerting & for­cing them against their owne expresse mea­ning hath (I grant) byn vsed by diuers, and cheefly by the patrons and grandsyres of En­glish protestancy,Vid. cap. 9. & 10. Iewel and Fox whome this man principally followeth, but yet so as he out goeth his maister (yf it may be) in that art, as by the examples alleadged before of abusing S. Hierome S. Augustine, S. Bernard, & others hath in part byn seene but wil more appeare in the other incounters following, especially the se­cond and seauenth.

[Page 132]The other shifts also of repeating againe 5 often the things before answered, as though they had neuer byn answered; of accusing others for excusing him-self; of running be­hynd the cloath of [...]tate & thrusting her Ma^ties. person and gouernment betwene him & his aduersary, his bold impudent assertions of things manifestly knowne to be false (as that the puritans and protestants are all one and that there is no difference of religion betwene them,Admonition and conclu­sion. and other such lyke, all these poynts (I say) haue byn sufficiently layd open before as they fel out, nor need they any new repetition here againe, but rather admonition, to wit that the K^t. would with some indifferēcy cō ­sider of these points, and enter into contem­plation of a good conscience, reme [...]bring ra­ther his eternal good, thē his tēporal honour, and therwithal these words of S. Augustine to Iulian. Aug. cont. Iul. lib. 5.6.7. Etst coram hominibus sit dura frons tua eru­bescat saltem coram Deo mens tua. Albeyty our forehead be hard and blush [...]ot before men yet let yow mynd at least blush before God: which were noe lesse wholsome then holy counsel for him, yf he would follow yt.

And this was my exhortation and Warn­word 6 to S. F. before I saw the supplement of his proctor O. E. which being much more shamelesse bytter and false then any thing vt­tered by the K^t. I was tempted to take this sentence of S. Augustine from him and bestow yt vpon the minister, but in the end I resolued to leaue yt common to both, and to the end [Page] yow may consider how fitly the foresaid sen­tence as wel of a shamelesse mynd as of a sha­melesse forehead doth fal vpon the masked minister O. E. yow must remember how he hath behaued him-selfe in the former com­bat & how euen at his very first calling vpon the stage he shewed vs a notorious cosening trik about falsifying a place of S. Augustine,Vid. Cap. 3. Stechus, Eugobinus in naming the Pope God, and at his next goying vp, he telleth certayne notorious lyes,Cap. 13. which all the world cannot excuse, adding ther-vnto a lyke falsification about the counsel of Lateran, Cap. 15. his impudency also, foolish inconstancy and contradiction to himself is to be remembred in his third ad­mission to tel his tale, & further his egregious folly in setting downe his English rule of faith wherby he would exclude the Cap. 16. & in annot. vpō hi [...] epist. to the [...]ead. puritans: and no lesse folly is discouered in alleadging Cath. Emperors decrees quite against himself. And his grosse ignorance is laid forth by occasion of his argument, A [...]iones sunt suppositorū, therby to prooue that Catholyks receaue not their faith from the vniuersal Churche.

7 Finally his atheisme and irreligious iudge­ment is discouered and conuinced not only by that he saith the differences betwene Luthe­rans,Cap 17. Zwinglians, Caluinists & Puritanes, not to be any essential points in matters of religiō, but also by his cōtemptible speches of the first Doctors & fathers of his owne religion, espe­cially yf any of those two books named by me before,Cap 6 7. and wrytten against the Puritanes, [...] [Page 131] meane the Suruey of disciplinar Doctrine, and Daun­gerous positions, were written by him (as some wil say) wherin the whole story of the de­formed Churche of Geneua by Caluyn, VVickednes of Caluyn Pharellus, Beza, and others. Pharellus, Beza and others, and their actions, councels, drifts and attempts about the same are so set downe and printed by publike authority in Englād, that yf a man would study to describe notorious wicked men and catylines of their countrey without conscience, he could not set it downe nor expresse it more liuely, thē it is done in the foresaid books against the fore­said new prophets, and their cheefest northen schollers, to wit, Iohn Knocks and his fellowes in Scotland, and Goodman and his mates in Englād, which argueth no faith or conscience in any of them but only to say and do for the tyme & as the tyme serueth, and as their proper lucar, ease, ambition and sensuality requireth: and herby may be warned the discreet reader to look to his soule and saluation, seing these men for them-selues do seeme to make that the last and least part of their care, or cogitations, feeding vs with many faire words of blessings, but filling vs with my­seryes.

THE SVMME OF THAT which before was set downe betweene the watchman & the warder. CAP. I.

AS in the former first En­counter 1 the knight in his vaunt of vanitie,VVatchvvord and vanitie therof. & height of heretical pryde went a­bout to persuade vs, yea to lay before our face the ine­stimable, and innumerable blessings which our country (for sooth) had receyued by change of Catholyke religion into Protestancie, so for better confirmation of [Page] this so loftie a dryft he took vpon him in this second Encounter to make declaration that in Queene Maries raygne, and former tymes vnder Catholyke English Princes, there was uothing els but darkenesse, cloudes, mistes, shadowes, ignorance, blyndnes, want of lear­ning, lack of light, and other such calamities, and miserable obscurities: for proof wherof he setteth downe as it were by way of preface or preparation to his designed treatise certayne preambles forged by him-self, as for example, that the only desyre to read vpon the book of God the old or new testament was held for heynous heresie in former tymes so farre foorth that for this only act or desyre men were brandled to the slaughter, and then passing further on to the depth of his discourse he setteth downe fower famous grounds or principles of Catholyke doctryne all put in order by him, as most sure, and consequent the one of the other which he calleth general groūds 1 and Maximes of our religion. The first, that 2 ignorance is the mother of deuotion: The se­cond, that lay men may not medle with mat­ters 3 of religion. The third, that the Pope, and euery least masse-priest cōming frō him must be obeyed, though he commaund that which 4 is blasphemous before God. The fourth, that the Popes pardons are ready remedies for all synne among vs though neuer so greiuous, euen immediatly committed against God him-self.

2 For answere of all which fancyes the [Page 2] Warder hauing made a competēt declaration to shew first how fond and ridiculous a māner of proceding this was,The VVarder his defence against the VVatchman the first parte and is in our K^t. after so much folly and flatterie vttered in his for­mer tale of blessings throughout the first En­coūter, to enter now into so shameles a course of forging, falsifying, and lying for defacing of our doctryn and doings, he sheweth first of all the smal reason the K^t. had or hath to con­temne so proudlie as he doth, the Clergie of Q. Maries tyme, and of former ages for dark­nesse, ignorance, and blyndnes, declaring by diuers particulers, that they were farre more lear­ned, then those that since haue stepped vp in their places, and possessed their roomes. And from this he passeth to shew, that the fo­resaid two preābles about reading scriptures, and the punishment of death ther-vnto said to be assigned, are no wayes true, in any playne meaning sense, or interpretation, but feigned by the K^t. him-selfe, and consequentlie can not euer be proued, or defended, and by oc­casion of these preambles,About rea­ding of scriptures. the warder ente­reth into examination of the things thē-selues declaring how farre the reading of holy Scri­ptures in vulgar languages is permitted to all men among Catholykes, and what restraynt is made therof towards some, & for what causes, and reasons, and vpon what necessitie, and what is the true state of this controuersie betweene vs and Protestants, as also what hurt, profit, damages, or commodities haue or do insue therof, with alleaging both [Page] reasons, authorities, and experiences in that behalf.

3 To all which discourse of reasons and ex­periences set downe at good length by the warder, and conteyning in deed the principal substance of the controuersie, the K^•. answe­reth no one worde, nor so much as mentyo­neth the same in this his reply, but passeth to other matters, as by the combat of this insu­ing Encounter yow wil manifestlie see, and behold and pittie the poore K^t. for this weaknes.

The second parte of the vvatchmans impugnation and vvarders defence.After this cometh the warder to handle the second parte of this Encounter to wit, about the foresaid foure absurd positions, grounds, and maximes set downe by the K^t. for ours, which the warder prooueth to be neyther Maximes nor minimes of Catholyke Doctryne for that to proue them Maximes all Catho­lyke wryters must hold them, and to proue them minimes, some one at least must hold thē, but that neyther of these can be prooued. And consequentlie that they are no positions, or principles of Catholyke religion, but fictions rather of heretykes, and false impositions of the K^t.

4 And for the first that ignorance is held by vs to be the mother of deuotion,The first forged posi­tion. for that the watchman bringeth no other proof but only that reading of Scriptures was forbidden to the lay sorte (at which distinction also of laytie, & cleargie he seemeth to iest) hervpon the Warder taketh occasion first to proue by [Page 3] many old testimonies the vse and antiquitie of this distinction, wher-vnto the K^t. in this last reply returneth not any one word of answere, and after this agayne the warder declareth largely that this position is neyther Maxime nor minime among Catholykes, and that igno­rance is neyther held for the mother, daughter or kinse-woman of deuotion, which he pro­ueth both by the definition of deuotion it self out S. Augustine, S. Thomas, and others, as also by the effects, shewing that deuotion is grounded vpon knowledge & not vpon igno­rance though vpon perticular causes the lear­nedest men are not alwayes the most deuoute. All which discourse the K^t. thought good to passe ouer with silence as wel as the former, without taking any notice therof in this his last reply, and therby yow may see whether yt be more and more substantial that he lea­ueth vnanswered then that which he ans­wereth.

About the second position imposed vpon Catholykes,The second position. that lay men must not medle with mat­ters of religion, as the vntruth therof is more ap­parant then any of the rest, so was there lesse written in the refutation, but that necessitie inforced the warder to defend S. Thomas of Cā ­terburie, dishonored, and slaundered intolle­rably by the K^t. wher-vnto what he answe­reth in this Wast-woord now and how for defence of his former, falshoods he intangleth him-self in diuers new difficulties and in­extricable absurdityes shal be seene afterward [Page] in the particular discussion of matters that ensue.

5 In the third position that the Pope or meanest Priest coming from him is to be obeyed vnder payne of damnation though he command blasphemie, The third faygned po­sition. &c. The warder is more briefe in lyke manner, for that the euident falshood therof is apparant to all yet writeth he so much as is needful for a manifest briefe confutation, and how litle the K^t. hath to answere for deuising of this posi­tion, and laying it so falsely to Catholykes charge, yow shal afterwards see discussed.

6 And finally about the fourth and last forged ground of Catholyke religion,The fourth false ground. to wit that our chiefe remedy for sinne though it were committed immediatly against God him-selfe is, (to vse the watchmans words) A pardon from his Hol. and absolution from his holie Priests, but yf the decrees or ordinances of their Romish Synagoue were transgressed hardly any mercy was to be had &c. 1 About this I say the warder obserueth only the apparant cauils, ignorances, and falshoods of the watchmā, as first, that the greatest sinner immediatly committed against God him-selfe are to be remitted among vs by pardons, which is a malitious cauil, for that we hold such pardons to be auaylable only for the payne due to venial sinnes, or for remitting the temporal punishment, remayning after 2 mortal synne forgeuen before. Secondlie that he conioyneth together Popes pardons, and the absolution of Priests in the Sacrament of pennance, as though they were both one, [Page 4] which is ignorāce, for that the later remitteth all sinne, and the first not. And thirdly that the transgressors of the decrees and ordinances of the Churche can hardlie euer obtayne mercie, and that they are more hardly pardoned, then the grossest sinnes committed against God himse [...]f the warder sheweth to be a most ma­litious fiction without any grounde or colour of truth. To all which obseruations and de­ductions of the warder the K^t. answereth no­thing at all in this last replie, but filleth vp pa­per with tales eyther deuised by himself, or taken out of Ihon Fox as for example of one [...]esselius, a merchant of Pardons, and of the absolution of one Symon a Monke, that is forged to haue poysoned K. Ihon, and other such stuffe, which yow shal heare discussed and refuted afterward and therby see and perceyue how iustlie this last replie of S^•. Francis is called a Wast-word. And so we shal passe on to the particular examination of matters point by point.

ABOVT THE GENERAL charge of false dealing, layd to sir Francis in this Encounter, and how euil he auoydeth thesame by committing new falshoodes, & treacheries. CAP. II.

FIRST then the general charge layd to our K^t. throughout this whole second En­counter concerneth two poyntes, to wit, fal­sitie, and falsifying, the later wherof hath this differēce from the first, that it is both witting, and willingly committed, and consequentlie much more reprehensible then the first, (espe­cially in a knight) and how (think yow) doth he deliuer himself now from this charge?Pag. 2 [...]. yow shal heare presentlie by his owne pen, for after a fewe words of some compunction, and humilitie (as it might seeme) wherin he wrote that he would beare this charge of lying according to the councel of an ancient Father, who said that God suffreth slaunders to assault vs, that pryd may not sur­prise vs (as who would say, that his learned Wach-word had byn so glorious a work, as yt might haue put him into some pryd, and set him a loft, had not the warder, by his ans­were taken him downe agayne, and taught him to know himself. After this I say he run­neth presently to a certayne shifte before mē ­tioned of laying the lyke charge of lying to [Page 5] other men also of our syde, as yf that might ex­cuse him somewhat, to haue some compag­nions in that exercise, and as yow haue heard before in the precedent Encounter, that being charged with flatterie, he rāne straight wayes to Canonists; saying, that they flattered much more the Pope, then he the Queene and state, so now being charged with lying, he leapeth in lyke manner to lay the same charge vpon fryars, heare his narration. VValsingham (sayth he) an ancient Chronicler wryteth of Friars in Richard the second his tyme, Pag. 29. that they were of long tyme so infamons for lying, that it was counted a good argument both in matter and forme. This is a fryar, ergo a lyar: And it should seeme, the Romanists keep stil their old wont, by that famous ly which also of late they haue sent vs ouer, not only in print, but in pi­cture too, namely that some of the mayntenours of their Catholyke Religion, haue byn by vs heere put into beares skinnes, & so hayted to death with Maist [...]ues, a ly printed in the English College at Rome 1584. with Gregorie the 13. his priuilege, so great a ly as no place was fit to vtter it, but only Rome.

Lo heere thou maist see (good reader) put 2 in practise agayne the refuge before mentio­ned of excusing one fault by an other, which is a most absurd shifte; for as S. Ierom. sayth, peccantium mul [...]itudo non parit errori patrocimū. Hiero. epist. 66 ad Ruffi­num. The multitude or society of offenders doth not protect, or geue patronage to the errour. But much more in this case when many pointes be different: for I would aske the K^t. what re­leef or discharge is this to him, yf both these [Page] examples were true (as after they wil proue false) to wit, yf fryar [...] were such lyars in King Richard the 2. his tyme, why should [...]nights be lyars in Q. Elizabeths tyme [...] or yf a printer or paynter in Rome, or both, or these that set them a worke liuing a thousand myles from England, should haue [...]rr [...]d in [...]ome one par­ticular fact wr [...]tten, or related from thence, what excuse may this be to S. F. who writing in England is accused to haue lyed and fa [...]si­fied things present, and such as all England doth or may know to be false? furthermore he cannot be so ignorant, but that he must know, that there is a great differēce betweene historical, and doctrinallyes & the first much more perdonable then the second The rela [...]t of the di [...]pu­tation be­tvveene Plessy Mor­nay, and [...]he B [...]h o [...] Eu­r [...]ux b [...]fore the K of F [...]aunce in May anno 1600. and that one of our countrymen of late hath offred to shew an infinitie of doctrinal lyes out of di­uers principal protestant wryters, and especi­ally out of Ihon Fox by name this mānes mai­ster, & that within the cōpasse of two leaues, yet doth he pardon him all meere historical lyes, such as by euil information he might be deceaued in the relating of,Fox. act. and [...]o [...] 115. as namely that of Iohn Marbeck the singer of Wind­sore, & diuers others, whome he setteth do [...]ne for martyrs, and bo [...]h printed [...] and paynted with fyer about [...]hem, & their bodies burned to ashes, whiles they were yet aliue, and me [...]r [...]e, when Fox printed his book.

3 With much more equitie then do we deale with S.F. and his frends, then he w [...]h vs, yf the matters alleaged were both true, & to his [Page 6] purpose. And wheras he addeth, that this re­port of the beares skin is priuileged for truth by Pope Gregorie the 13. it is a childish cauil, for that Princes priuileges do warrant only the printing, and not the truth of the book, for yf her Ma^ties. priuilege to Fox and Iewels books (for example sake) or to this poore one of S.F. should be an obligation to her Ma^tie. to defend all the lyes and falshoods therin con­teyned, it were a pitiful case, and dangerous also to the authors and wryters them-selues, for then were her Ma^tie. obliged in honor to see the same punished when they are found out and at least to graunt the demaund of the foresaid relator of Plessy Morney his dispu­tation to haue our protestants falshoods come to publyke tryal before her person or counsel as those of Plessis Mornayes impostures were examined, and conuinced in presence of the K. of France, which were a daungerous point in England, as matters now stand, I meane daungerons to the credit of Protestāts doctrine and dealing, but otherwyse profitable for the truth, & most honorable to her Ma^tie. and me­morable for posteritie.

But now let vs examine the fact it self 4 obiected about this beares skinne (for of this I meane to treat first,About the man bayted in the beares skinne. and of the fryars after­ward) true it is, that at my being in Rome, I sawe among other pictures, on the English Churche wals of old and new martyrs, diuers representations, and of some cruel vsage of Catholykes for their conscience sake in our [Page] dayes, and among other this portrayture of one in a beares skyn, bayted with dogs, and for that I had not heard, nor read of any such matter publikely done in England I beganne to maruaile how it came to be paynted there, yet considering on the other syde (as euery in­different man should) that they being graue and learned men that were in Rome at that tyme, and gaue the instructions to the paynter in that matter, and that it was nor likly, they would be so wicked, or foolish, or so litle re­spect their owne credits, as to inuent, or fayne any such matter of them-selues, & set it soorth so publikely to be seene, and red of all the world, I beganne to ymagin, that eyther them­selues knew it to be true, which I knew not, or els might perhaps by letters be informed ther­of out of England, frō some frends who might affirme it of their owne knowledge, to haue byn done in some priuate manner, & for that the said persons in Rome were now dead, I beganne to informe, my selfe of others, and presently I fel vpon a very sufficient gētleman of Lincolne shyre, who tould me that in the parish of Lowth it is most certayne that in K. Henry the eyght his dayes a Catholyke man was so put to death, being made odious first for the title of Supremacy, and then so bayted in a beares skinne, and that this was done, by certayne vehement heretykes at that tyme, but whether by publike authoritie, or by par­ticular fury, he could not tel, but sure he was that the fame therof is fresh yet in Louth [Page 7] among all men as easely may be learned.

I found also an other gentleman of good 5 worship, who tould me that he heard S▪. Ed­ward Carew (brother to the now L. Cham­berlayne) talk of an other such like fact, prac­tised by certayne nobles or gentlemen, for their disport vpon a Catholyke man in this Q. dayes, bayting him with their Spaniels, and whether this be true or no, yt may be easely tryed the partie yet being a liue, but by this it appeareth that they which caused that picture to be paynted in Rome, might haue more ground for yt, then euery man at the first sight, knoweth: and yf they had byn misinformed so farre of from England (as Fox confesseth he was in diuers things in England yt self) it had byn rashnes in them (I grant) to put it eyther in print or wryting. But this litle re­leeueth S.F. his cause, who is accused to haue set downe and printed things that him-self did know and must needs know to be false when he printed them, which is error not of ignorance, but of obstinacie, and playn lying.

And this being the true state of our que­stion,6 I come now to the fryars, whom our K^t. seeketh to disgrace, with this note in his mar­gēt, Fryars braue lyars, but for brauery it agreeth better to gilten spurres, then to gray hoods, and as for lying we shal now examine the matter, wherin the reader shal fynd our K^t. to haue vsed a far worse, and more dishonorable shift, thē the former, that being but a sleight, this a playne imposture, abusing the Author [Page] Walsingham by him alleadged quite cōtrarie to his owne sense, dryft, and meaning, as now we shal declare.

7 And first I do grant, that the historiographer Thomas Walsingham lyuing almost 200. yeares agone or more, wryteth in effect as S^t. F. alleageth, that it was a common saying in K. Richard the 2. his tyme, that fryars were lyars; but what fryars were these trow yow? for herein lyeth the whole matter which the K^•. very craftely concealeth, and yet might he imagyn easely that it would be espied by his aduersarie; for that Walsinghā being a Catholyke and religious man, cannot be thought to haue condemned all fryars in general, & who then were those fryars by him condemned? surely he sheweth yt euidently that they were more of S.F. humour,Fryars cor­rupted by vvickclif in K. Rich the [...]. his tyme. then of S. Francis holinesse, for they were such begging fryars as Wicklif, newly sprong vp, had corrupted with his pe­stilent heresie and had set against other reli­gious orders that had possessions (for that was W [...]ckclifs first cunning wickednes to set begg [...]ng fryars against monkes, and such as had riches) & to make these monkss more odious to the people, these fryars gaue themselues by Wickclifs good instructions to inuent infinit lyes of them, wherby they made not so much their aduersaries as themselues in famous for lying, and Thomas Walsingham beinge one of the sayd Monkes of S. Albans monasterie no maruayle though he complayned of them.

8 Behold heere the state of the question, and [Page 8] the honest dealing of S. F. which point that yow may the better vnderstand, yow must know, that the sayd Thomas Walsingham doth describe the most barbarous rebellion of the common people vnder wat Tyler and Iack straw, VVat Tyler & Iack Stra­vve [...] rebelliō anno. 1 [...]1. and others in the 4. yeare of K. Richard the 2. (in which they spoyled London, took the King, beheaded the Archbishop of Canter­bury, and the L. Treasurer, and meant to haue slayn all the Bishops, and other Ecclesiastical and religious men of possessions within En­gland, reseruing only the begging fryars.

And to the end we may vnderstand that all this proceeded of W [...]ckcliffes doctrine (as the 9 lyke did in Germany in the yeare Vide sup. Enc. 1 cap. [...]. 1525. of Luthers) walsingham in the beginning of this lamentable storie,VValsing an. 1381. sub Rich 2. Pag. 256. wryteth thus in latyn: Anno Dominicae incarnationis 1381. &c. In the yeare of the incarnation of our Sauiour a thousand three hundred fourescore and one, and in the 4. yeare of the raigne of K. Ric [...]ard the s [...]cond after the conquest, That true Hy­pocryte, the Angel of Sathan, the forerunner of Anti­christ, vnworthy to be named, I meane the heretyke Iohn VVickclif, or rather weeckebeleefe continuing his dreames, seemed that he would now drinke vp the ryuer of Iordan, and cast all good Christians into the dungeon of Hel, &c.

Thus beginneth Walsingham this yeare,10 and presently entereth into the pitiful nar­ration of the former tragedy of the popular re­bellion of wat Tyler &c. & hauing ended all, beginneth to search the causes why God did suffer such exceeding calamities as these to [Page] happen vpon the land, and sayth that some did lay the fault vpon the Bishops and Prelates of the Churche for that they had not looked better,Nobility and gentry cor­rupted by VVickclifs Doctrine. and more diligently to stop and punish Wickclifs heresie at the beginning, Cum no­uissent indignè agere filios suos, Ioannem VVickclif, & [...]ius sequaces, dagmatizando peru [...]rsam, & damnatam doctrinam, &c. Wheras they knew diuers of their Children as Iohn Wickcliffe, and his followers to liue vnworthilie, & to set abroad peruerse and damned doctrine, &c. Others, he sayth, did attribute this calamitie to the sinnes of the gentry, and nobilitie, Quia maiores penè Prouinciarum eorum se quebantur errorem. For that the principal almost in euery shire did follow these mennes errors, & agayne, ‘Quia in Deum erant fictae fidei, nam quidam illorum credebant nullum esse Deum, nihil esse sacramentū Altaris, nullam post mortem resurrectionem, &c. And for that they were of a fayned fayth towards God, some of them beleeuing no God at all, and that the Sa­crament of the Altar was nothing, and that there was no resurrection after death, but that man endeth as doth a beast, &c.’

11 Behold the yssue presentlie vpon heretical doctrine, what effect it brought foorth in the nobilitie. But what? brought it forth any better fruite in the common people?The cōmons corrupted. No, for that their acts do shew in this barbarous re­bellion, wherin they made profession to slea euery one that was learned,VValsing. Ibid. Pag. 2 [...]1. or bare a pen, and ynkhorne at his gyrdle. And besyds, Wal­singham sayth, viuebant rixando, litigando, fraudes, [Page 9] & falsitates iugiter meditando, libidini dediti, adul­teijs maculati, &c. Et super haec omnia in sidei arti­culis plurimi claudicabaut. They liued in braw­ling, and contention, deuising falshood, and deceyts day and night, geuing them-selues ouer to lustes of the flesh, being spotted with adulteries, and besydes all this, most of them did hault in the articles of their fayth.

And after this he cometh to talk of reli­gious 12 orders in lyke sorte,Religious men also corrupted. and principally of those that hauing no possessions liued by al­mes, and were most corrupted, and set on by wicliffe, against those that had possessions, of whome Walsinghā sayth, suae professionis imme­m [...]res, &c. & possessionatis inuidentes, &c. being vn­myndful of their profession, and enuying such of other religious orders as had possessions in tantum illam veritatis professionem suam maculabant, vt in d [...]ebus illis, &c. ‘They did spot so farre foorth their profession of truth, as in those dayes yt was in euery m̄anes mouth, that this is a Fryar, ergo a lyar.’

This is the discourse of Walsinghā, wherin 13 yow see first that he speaketh not of all fryars, nor against the profession it selfe of fryars (which he sayth was the profession of truthe, but against such as being forgetful therof, and brought [...]o maligne, and enuie other orders that had possessions (which was the art and doctrine of Wicliffe) became lyars, so as these were S^r. F. his fryars, and not of S. Francis (as before I noted) and when he telleth their faults, he vttereth the shame of his new [Page] ghospel,Fox in Ca­lend 2. lan. which begane in England by VVic­liffe, as Fox doth testifie, who maketh this first prophet of theirs a Saynt, and kalender Martyr,Fox monu­mēt. Pag. 421. though he died in his bed at his bene­fice in Lincolneshire, as Fox denyeth not, yet such was his talent in making martyrs. And besydes this he discouereth to the Reader to much false dealing in that amōg all the faultes of Bishops, nobilitie, comonaltie and religious orders touched seuerally (as yow haue heard) by his author walsingham, he culled out only the lying of Fryars,Syr F. taken in false dea­ling. and those not of ours, but of his fryars, who were made lyars not by their owne institution, or by our religion, but by the principles of Wiclifs Doctrine which S.F. acknowledgeth (I think) for his. Consi­der then the mannes wit in alleaging this exā ­ple, and his truth in handling the same. And by this one iudge of the rest, though there wil not want other occasions after to cōtemplate also the same much more.

14 And hitherto now we haue talked of the general charge of lying, and falshood layd to S^r. Francis, and how he hath sought to auoyd the same by recharging vs, and some of ours againe with like fault, which as if they were true and could be verified they deliuer not him of his fault: so being found also to be false, they double his former error, and make him more culpable: to which effect, and for iustifying more the charge layd vpon him of bould false assertions, we are now to examine some other particulars of lyke qualitie. For more clearer [Page 10] performance wherof I shal set downe some lynes of the Warder which conteyne the first controuersie or charge. Thus then he wrote at that tyme.

But before S.F. cometh to the matter, that 15 is,VVardvvord. Pag. 1 [...]. to set downe those absurd principles of ours he maketh for his preface, a certayne poetical descr [...]ption of the darke, cloudy, and mistie state of things in Queene Maries tyme, in these words. ‘It is not vnknown: (sayth he) to many yet liuing, neyther can it be altogether hidden from the yonger sort that ly [...]ed with them, what a darke mistie cloude of ignorance (which brought in popish Idola­trie, Deuised darknes. and all manner of superstition) did ouer shade the whole land, &c. And againe after. In these darke & cloudy dayes, least the sunshine of knowledge should disperse the mistes of ignorance, and geue light to the dimme of sight, &c. Doth it not seeme that this graue gētleman describeth the lake of Auernus in Italie, or some foggie marsh in England, or some smokie kitchen, or woodhouse of his owne without a window, when he speaketh of our famons country in sormer tymes? for aboue a thousand yeares the state of England, and the Princes, people, nobilitie, and learned men therof had continued in that Egyptian, or rather Cymerian darknes, which this gentle­man describeth vnder clouds, mistes and sha­dowes, vntil his new sunneshine doctors came to inlighten the same. And it was accompted then, as wyse, learned, holy, valiant, noble, and florishing a kingdome (aswel for religion as otherwise) as France, Italie, Spayne, and other’ [...] [Page] reading the scriptures in English could not iudge, whether matters of doctrine and re­ligion taught them by their Prelats, were true or no (as though now they could do it by english reading) and that for this cause, and for lack of Scriptures in English a number of lving miracles were beleeued, and in steed of Christs blood, the blood of a duck was wor­shipped, as the blood of Hales was playnly proued to be▪ Syr Francis posed in di­cerning a duckes blood from other. and openly shewed at Paules crosse in K. Hen. dayes (which yet I would aske our K [...]. how a ducks blood could be dis­cerned frō other blood after so many yeares.) All this I say and many other such manifest vanities,See after­vvard cap. 6. vvhat O. E vvryteth also of this mat­ter. and knowne vntruthes, as that Bishops in Q. Maries tyme did not preach nor others for them, except certayne strawbery sermons of [...]otting fryars, and the lyke. These bold assertions I say, and contumelious irrisions being knowne to be false aswel by a [...]l that are yet liuing and sawe those tymes, as by the books of Homelies, and sermons yet extant▪ I meane not to stand vpon the answering in this place, but to passe ouer to matter of more substance, and to consider of an example or two of ignorance in Q▪ Maries tyme, and before. For this K [...]. for a ful and irrefragable proof that all was igno­rance among Catholykes before the light o [...] Luthers Gospel began to shine,VVastvvord. Pag. 32. The storie of D Bassinet a [...] frenche A­postata Fryar. he bringeth vs, the only exampl [...] (as he sayth) of D. Bassinet [...] man of great learning, and aut [...]oritie in France, wh [...] confessed his owne ignorāce vntil he fel to read the Scri­ptures, though he had byn a Iudge vpon heretiks before [...]

[Page 12]Look heere (gentle reader) the important 20 proof that he alleageth for his purpose, cyting only. Iohn Fox his Acts, and Monuments in the Margent,Fox edit. ver. Pag. 862. but neyther he nor Fox do al­leage any one Author where we may read the storie (for this is also Fox his shift among others whē he meaneth notorious treacherie) and yf the whole narration of this Bassinet confessing himself to be ignorant before he fel into the new ghospel, were true, what au­thoritie or credit may the saying of an Apo­stata Fryar fallen into heresy haue against his former state and condition? is it maruaile yf he say, that he was in ignorance before, or is it strange that he should pretend to come to this new light by reading Scriptures? what other pretence did euer auncient heretyke or new take vpon him? or what other excuse could this man make of running out of his Cloister, or taking a sister to his Compa­gnion, or from a Iudge of heretykes (while he was a Dominican fryar) to become an he­retyke himselfe, as appeareth plainly by Fox his whole discourse, though S. F. so telleth the tale as he could be content we thought him to be a great learned Catholyke, and for that cause betweene Ihon Fox and him they haue [...]octored the poor fryar, without euer hea­ [...]ing him dispute much lesse do his act, only [...]o geue him more reputation and reuerence with the reader.

And on the other syde they do bring in the 21 [...]rch-bishop of Aix, who was against him [Page] (and calleth him wicked Apostata) to speak most absurdly (though he were knowne to be a most reuerend, and learned man) and among other wordes they make him say thus. This doctrine is contrarie to our holy Mother the Churche, and to o [...]r holy Father the Pope, a most vndoubted and true God in earth. And did not those haynous woords deserue I pray yow some quotation where they might be found? but neyther the K^t. nor the Fox vouchsafeth vs so muche, but as though the matter were most certaine the K^t. braueth in a marginal note with these woordes, O blyndnes, O blasphemy: But a man might more iustly say. O cogging, O cosenage, that dare auouche so horrible a slaunder, against so honorable a personage, without cyting the place or Author for the iustifi­cation. But we must passe ouer many of these absurdities with patience, & so go on to other matter.

HOVV LONG THE CA­tholyke Romayn Religion hath florished in England: & of the authoritie of S^t. Bede & Arnobius abused by Sir F. togither with a comparison examined betwene our learned men, and those of the Protestants: and first of Ihon Husse, bragged of by Syr Francis. CAP. III.

AFTER this the K^t. before he come to 1 answere in particuler to the vntruthes obiected against him wil needs say somewhat to those woords of myne, that aboue a thowsand yeares the State of En [...]land and the Princes, peopl [...], no­bilitie and learned men therof had cont [...]nued in that Egyptian or rather Chimerian darcknes, VVast-vvord Pag. 34. which he describeth, vnder Clowdes, Mystes and Shadowes, vntil his new Sunshine Doctors came in &c. Which woords of myne he hauing corruptly alleaged (as often his fassion is) sayth two things, first that my bold assertiō of a thowsād yeares is vayne for that yt is euident by Bedes playne testi­monie, that in his tyme this Iland had the Scrip­tures in their owne language (as though this only were suf [...]icient to make that age to be o [...] Pro­testants Religion though it had byn so) and the second, that we do secretly yeild the first 600. yeres after Christs to Protestants, seing we challenge commonly but a thowsand for our selues.

[Page] 2 But by this last point to answere this first, yow may see how wise an Answerer this is, seing that when we name a thowsand yeares we vnderstand from the first conuersion of our English nation vnder Gregory the first,Protestants religion in no age. which no man can doubt of but yf syr F. wil goe higher vnder the Britans, we shal easely also shew the lyke in that tyme. But in the meane space yt is but a hungry trick of this needy knight to snatch that which is not giuē him, to wit 600. yeres together of the primi­tiue Churche; wherof our meaning is to giue him no one yeare, nor half one, wherin his Religion was extant or had any one that pro­fessed the same in those daies as he doth now,Enc. 7. c. 4.5.6.7.8-9. & this I shal largely proue & declare afterward, and this to the second point.

3 But now to the first point of proof alleaged out of S^t. Beede, yf it were true as Syr. F. citeth thesame (& surely knights should haue truth in their allegations) to wit, that Scriptures were in those dayes read by some people in their vulgar languages and tongues which Bede nameth, yet were yt nothing against vs, who do vse thesame libertie, and haue done in all ages to permit some vulgar translations for suche as are thought meet to profit,Enc 1.8. & infra cap. 5. and not to take hurt therby, as before hath byn declared, and after shalbe shewed more at large.

4 But now yow must vnderstand, that this playne and euident testimony of S. Bede which Syr F. braggeth of, but quoteth yt not, [Page 14] (as commonly his shift is; when he would not haue matters exam [...]ned, or his fraud found out) this place I say of Bede which he allea­geth is quite contrary to him: for this sayth Bede.Beda lib. 1. hist Angl. cap. 1. Haec in praesenti [...]uxta numerum librorum qui­bus lex diuina scripta est, quinque gentium linguis vnam eandemque summae veritatis & verae sublimitatis scientiam seruatur & confitetur, Anglorum vz Bri­tonum, Scotorum, Pictorum & Latinorum, quae in me­ditatione Scripturarum caeteris omnibus est facta com­munis, &c.

This Iland at this present according to the number of the (fyue) Bookes, wherin the law was written (by Moyses) doth in fyue tonges search owt and confesse one and the self same knowlege of the highest truth,A notable abusing of S. Bedes autho­ritie. and of the true highnes (which is the Religion of Christ Iesus) to wit the tongue of the Angles (or En­glishmen) of the Britans, of the Scots, of the Pictes, and of the Latines (or relykes of the Romanes) which Latyn tougue ys now made common to all the rest in meditation of the Scriptures.

Thus sayth Bede wherin 3. things are to be 5 obserued first, that all th [...]se fyue nations ly­uing together in one Iland, and in continual enmitie and warres in other pointes, yet in Religion and profession of one truthe they all agreed, which sheweth notably the vnitie of Catholyke doctrine euen among enemies, and ouerthroweth that fond fiction of protestāts, who in all their bookes giue out and auow (especially Fox and Hollinshed) that the reli­gion [Page] of the Britans was different from that which S. Augustine the Monke brought in from Rome to the English nation.Fox monu. pag 107.108. Ho [...]n [...]h. des crip. Angl. Cap. 9.

6 Secondly yt is [...]o be noted that since the new Religion of Protestants came vp though all the [...]and a [...]most be of one tonge, & throughly frends in oth [...]r matter [...], yet in points or Re­ligion they agree not, as in Bedes tyme when they were enemies, which is the vertue of their vnitie. And thirdly may be noted the euil dealing of Syr F. himself a [...]so, who in this place sticketh not to auowche to the Reader that by these woords of Bede it is euident and plaine, that the Scriptures were now in all these fyue tonges, where as S. Bede sayth the quite contrary, to wit, that the Latyn tongue was made common to all fyue nations in the meditation of the Scriptures, which could not be spokē to any purpose, yf the Scriptures had byn common to all before in their lan­guages, so that S. Bedes meaning must needes be, that albeit all fyue tongues confessed one and the selfsame highest truthe in one Ca­tholyk Christian Religion, yet in reading and meditation of scriptures and diuine seruice, the Latyn tōgue was the common tōgue. This is his plaine sense though (as I haue said, I doubt not but that in those dayes there might be some Catholyke trāslations into the vulgar tongues, permitted then and after also, as in tyme of K. Edgar and other Kinges we read of, and after that againe vnder K. Edward the 3. Thomas Arundel Archbishop of Cāterbury [Page 15] permitted and appo [...]nted the same [...]n a Synod ho [...]den at Oxford,Linvvod. l. 5. de Magistris. Hovv som vulgar trans­lations of Scriptures vvas alvvayes permitted. and in all Catholyk tymes after that againe were neuer forbidden all vu [...]gar tran [...]ations wholy, but to be vsed with such prudence and moderation among the ignorant & rude people as might do good & no hurt.

Wherfore yt was not needful that Syr F.7 should aduenture to shame himself by abusing S. Bedes name and woords to proue a thing that we deny not, though in the sense he would haue yt we say yt is most false, to wit, that Scriptures were publikly and promis­cuously red in vulgar tonges at that tyme, & so sayth S. Bede also, and be [...]ng an Englishman himself, as he was, might haue an action of force (yf not of forgery) against Syr F. for that he hath wrested him against his owne playne meaning: as might Arnobius also whom the K^t. cyteth a litle after in the next page against the Christian vse of Images, for that in his bookes aduersus gentes (which title he cūningly omitted, least it should discouer his fraud, for that Arnobius speaketh against heathenish Idols and not Christian Images) he detesteth (sayth our K^t.) Simulachra & Deos malleis fabri­catos. Idols, Gods of Gentils made with ham­mers.Arnobius abused by Syr F. VVast-vvord Pag. 35. But what ys this to Christian Images which are no Idols? and what dealing is this? what cosenage in a K^t. what violent laying of handes on Authors against their owne sense and meaning, & vpon Gods seruants contrary to their owne intentions, what author may [Page] may not be abused by this boldnes? what wryter may not be wrested against himself? when that their woords expresly vttered against gentils and Heathens be impudently vrged against that Christian Religion which themselues professed. But let vs permit this shift to the Protestants pouertie and so go on.

8 There remayneth yet one shift more, which is nothing els indeed but a certayne pettie cauil picked by those woords of myne before rehearsed, That England was accompted vnder those mists and clowds wherof Syr F. talketh) for as wyse, learned, valiant, noble and flo­rishing a Kingdome, as France, Italy Spayne, and other Catholyke Kingdomes be at this day, where yf any one of these our inlightened and sunshined Mi­nisters (which Syr F. braggeth much to haue enlightened the world) should appeare, he would not dare to open his mowth in Schooles and matters of learning, &c.

9 To this the K^t. answereth two things: first that Rome also when yt was heathen was as wyse, learned and valiant, and yet was yt in darcknes of Religion. A meere cauil. which I denie not, but yt was not as wyse and learned in Christian religion, nor in comparison of other Christian Kingdomes, as I compared England with France, Spayne & Italy & other such states in respect of darcknes mysts and clowds which Syr F. would lay vpon yt. So as both the matter, subiect and obiect being changed in the comparison, no maruaile though yt hold not, and yt is called [Page 16] among Logicians a fallacie or elenchus, and in English a cauil, and this to the first shift vsed by him.

The second point which he answereth ys,10 that my vaunt of vnmachable learning on our syde (as he tea [...]meth it) ys vayne and childish, and that our diuinitie is clowdy and owle-lyke diuinitie, yf his Mi­nisters can not vnderstand yt, (as I sayd in the wardword) they did not, and then for the proof of the great learning on his syde, he al­leageth the offers of disputation made by Iohn Husse at the councel of Constance, and by Martyn Luther at Wormes and Augusta and of Symon Grinaeus at Spire, and of Beza with others at Poysie in France.

To the first point of which reply I answere,11 that for comparison of learning in Protestants and Catholyks I remit me to the proof and iudgment of the wyse, that shal read the books and woorks of both sydes, for better or briefer trial then this we can not assigne, seing they flie the publyke trial of equal disputation, which so often we haue desyred and offred: though their maner of teaching (hauing ex­cluded all substantial and scholastical method and matter out of their Schooles) doth easely shew and conuince the same.

Wherfore to the second point answered by 12 Syr F. I say that if yt follow, that our diuinity is therfore to be accompted clowdy & owle-lyke, for that his Ministers can not vnderstand yt, then are all other good sciēces also in a pit­tiful case (wherof for the most part they are [Page] ignorant) & this a new consequence or kynd o [...] argument inuented by our knight,A foolish consequence of the Kt. that lack of [...]earn [...]ng should be attributed rather to the obscuritie o [...] the artes and sciences, then to the defect of such as want them.

13 To the third point wherein Syr F. alleageth the disputatiō of Iohn Husse. Martyn Luther, Symon Grinaeus and others, seing he cyteth no Author at all to iustifie his vayne assertion therin (as his maner is when he would not haue his matters examined) I had thought once to haue sayd nothing:The story of Ihon Husse & his disputa­tion at the councel of constance. but considering on the other side his bo [...]d impudencie in auouching things playne opposite to the re­lation, of all Authors that wrote in those dayes, when the thinges them-selues fel owt, I can not choose but shake him also here by the sleue, to see whether he wil blush or any frend of his for him at this shamles dealing which I am to discouer.

14 First where as he wryteth, that Iohn Hus came to the councel of constance there to defend publikly his assertions, VVastvvord. Pag. 37. and that those graue Fathers did lear­nedly refute him by clapping him in prison, loding him with chaines and fetters, and condemned him not only not being conuicted, Tomo 4. concil. Pag. 313. Aen. Sil. hist. Bohem. c. 36. Io. Dub. li 24. Iohn. Cochl. lib. 2. but not so much as heard, &c. This I say is to to shamles, yf we wil beleue eyther the acts and records of the councel yt self, yet exstant, or the grauest Authors that haue written since that tyme therof, as Aeneas Syluius in the history of the Bohemians, Io­hānes Dubrauius B. of Olimutz, Iohānes Cochlaeus, in his history of the Hussits and others.

[Page 17]For as for the acts and gests of the councel 15 [...] self [...] which are the best witnesses) the who [...]e [...]tenth sess [...]on contayneth this Storie at large [...] Iohn Hus, his comming to the councel, his [...]am nation, conference, peruersitie condem­ [...]ation and the [...]yke. And fi [...]st yt is declared [...]erein how that after Masse of the holy [...]ost being song by the Cardinal of Viuaria, [...]egat for the Pope,The number that came to this councel. Arch and By [...]hops 346. Abbo [...]s and Doctors 564. Princes no­blemen and their tra [...]ne, 16000 Fox. P [...]g 5 9. Sessio 15. Pag 314. the Letanies also sayd, and [...] the Princes both Ecclesiastical and tem­ [...]oral set in their order, (which in the begin­ [...]ing of the sayd Session are recounted by [...]ame) Iohn Husse was brought into the [...]ouncel vpon a Saturday the 6. of Iuly anno [...]omini 1415. who being placed ad medu [...]m [...]oncily, vbi erat leua [...]us in vnum altum scamnum, &c. [...]n the mydest of the councel, raised vp, vpon a [...]igh stoole, to the end that all men might see [...]im: there was a learned Sermon made first [...]y the B. of Laudium, vpon these woordes: Des [...]ruatur co [...]pus peccati Rom. 16. and that [...]eing ended, there was first made by the councel decretum silen [...]ij, a decree that all men [...]hould hold t [...]eir peace, and after were read the articles of Iohn wicklief, vnder whom Husse had studied in Englād, to the number of 60. or there about condemned before in a councel at Rome, which Iohn Husse was ac­cused after that condēnation to haue preached and defended in Bohemia. And after this his owne Articles to the number of 30. were read also publykly and condemned: the last therof was this. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis, nullus est Prae­latus, [Page] nullus est Episcopus, dum est in peccato mor [...], no man is a ciuil Magistrate,A vvicked article of Iohn Husse. nor Prelate, no Bishop so long as he is in mortal sinne.

16 After this doth follow in that session great cōpany of other articles (for the form [...] were foūd vnder his owne hand) which we [...] proued by witnesses & processes against hi [...] all which being vrged, and shewed to [...] wicked false and seditious, his refuge w [...] (when he was pressed by the councel an [...] learned men therof) that he did appeale [...] Iesus Christ from them all,The manner of Iohn Hus his ansvvere. flying thereb [...] (as the councel sayth) all ordinary Ecclesia [...]stical iurisdiction as heretyks are wont t [...] doe, when they can not defend their fancie [...]

17 Ses. 15. Pag. 316.And whē after the condēnation of these ar [...]ticles diuers Cardinals, Archbyshops, Bishop [...] and other men (which the records do name [...] were appoynted by the councel to confer [...] with him agayne, and to persuade him t [...] follow reason, and not to stand only in hi [...] owne Iudgement. Respondit, quod vellet stare i [...] eo quod scripsit manu sua in praesenti parte: & fact [...] hinc inde suasionibus quod non vellet inhaerere su [...] opinion [...], Sed potius stare cum tota Ecclesia, &c. H [...] answered that he would stand in that he ha [...] written with his owne hand in the presen [...] affayre: & then diuers persuasions being mad [...] to and fro vnto him that he would not so stick in his owne opinion, but that he would stand rather with the whole Churche and with the learned men therof in this present councel gathered together: Finally he stood [Page 18] [...]iffe in his owne purpose &c. Thus far the [...]oords of the register.

And then agayne a litle after: Reperto de­ [...]um 18 Iohanne remanere in peruersitate sua, Va [...]neglory held Husse from cōuer­ting. and di­ [...]e, quod propter homines quos dòcuit de opposito [...] velit ab [...]urare &c. And finally finding that [...]ohn Hus did persist in his peruersitie, saying [...]at in respect of these men whome he had [...]aught the contrary he would not abuire, [...]r that yt would be scandalous &c. Heere­ [...]pon they proceeded to this condemnation. [...]nd thus much of that poynt wherby ap­ [...]eareth (contrarie to S^r. Francis assertion) that [...]e was both heard, disputed with, and cha­ [...]tably persuaded to returne vnto the truthe.

But besydes the former articles of doctrine,19 [...]e was conuinced also of two notorious vn­ [...]uthes, one a ly, the other a forgerie con­ [...]erning England: for first he had published [...] Prage,Stovv Pag. 326. that in a meeting of many Catholyke [...]rned men against his Maister Ihon VVicliffe in [...]. Paules Churche in London (which I ghesse to [...]e that which Iohn Stow mentioneth in the [...]nd of K. Edward the 3. his lyfe,Tvvo famous heretical vn­truthes of Husse. anno 1377. [...]hen Iohn of Gaunt Duke of Lancaster vpon [...]ontention against the B. of London, stood [...]r wicliffe and defended him in S. Paules [...]hurche, Husse said that such a Thunder, and [...]ghtening came from heauen vpon the suddayne as [...]ke vp the dores, and so chased VViclifs enemies, [...] with much a do they escaped into London. This [...]as one notorious ly which is conuinced also your histories.

[Page] 20 The second was, that Husse had brought forged testimony of the vniuersitie of Oxford, aff [...]ming that Iohn VVicliffe both lyued and dyed Catholy [...]e man, which thing was proued [...]or [...]gerie by testimony of thesame vniuersitie which vnder their Seale had gathered 26 [...] errors out of the books and wryting, [...] W [...]cliffe, and sent them to the sayd coun [...] of constance, to be seene, iudged, and con [...]demned, as they were.

21 All this and much more is related of Iho [...] Husse in the session of the councel: by whic [...] is conuinced the falsitie of S. F. who sayt [...] that he was condemned, not being so muc [...] as heard, but loden with chaynes and fetter [...] wherof no Author els that euer I read dot [...] make any mention, but that the K^•. as y [...] seemeth hath deuised yt at home in his studie [...]

Cō [...]rarieties betvvixt Husse, and Syr F. religiō.And finallie why he should labour so muc [...] for the prayse of this Ihon Husse or brin [...] him in for one of the learnedest and chiefe [...] champions of his Churche, I see no reason bu [...] beggarie on their behalfe, and penurie o [...] men to fil vp their Churche. For that Huss [...] confesseth many things in his articles for [...] agaynst S. F. as the seuen Sacraments,Art. 8 Pag. 318. an [...] dyuers others poynts of Catholyke religion [...] And on the other syde hath many proposi [...]tions which S. F. wil not dare to admit i [...] England [...] eyther for shame or feare, as tha [...] aboue mencioned of the ciuil magistrate Art. 30. Pag. 319.Pa [...]tors and Prelates to lose their authoritie [...] and that they are not to be obeyed when s [...] [Page 19] euer they fal into mortal sinne, which were a very hard case for both cleargie, and laitie this day in England.

And an other that beginneth thus: Quilibet Tyr [...]nnus potest & deb [...] licitè, & meritoriè occid [...] per quem [...]umque vassalum suum vel s [...]bditum, &c. Euery tyrant may lawfully, and meritoriouslie, yea ought to be slayne by any vassal or subiect of his, whether yt be by force or flatterie, or secret traynes, notwithstanding any [...]or­mer othe of fidelitie, or confederation made with him, and this without expecting any sentence giuen against him, or the commande­ment of any Iudge whatsoeuer.

This was one article of Ihon Husse con­demned 22 by a special decree of the said councel in the end therof,Pag. 326 [...] as is to be seene, and the reason why the councel condemned it so so­lemnly was both the falsitie of the doctrine,Desperate & dangerous doctryne of Hus [...]e. and the scandal which the Emperor, & other Princes there present took of yt. And finally for that he reserued to his owne censure and to those of his sect, who was a Tyrant, and who was not, to wit, any Prince that should be contrarie to them,Enc. 1. cap. 6. as before I haue shewed of our Puritan Caluenists.

And this being so, what gayneth S. F. by 23 vaunting of the learning of Ihon Husse, yf all were true that he alleadgeth for him, and being false (as I haue shewed) what booteth him to ly so shamefully for his sake, and how doth he alleage Ihon Husse, who teacheth so many things contrarie to him, and to Caluins [Page] doctrine and from whome Luther in his dis­putation with Ecchius at Lipsia in Saxony in the yeare 1519.Io. Cochl de act Luth. an. 1519. Pag. 16. did openlie disclayme together with all his Sect in Bohemia, saying Numque mihi placuit, nec in aeternum placebit. It neuer pleased me, nor euer shal yt please me.

24 By this then a man may see what vnion ground, or certainty these mē haue in religion that gather such members as these into their Churche, nay what conscience also they haue in treating these matters, wherof take an example not only in this K^t. but also in Ihon Fox the Saint-maker, who hauing layd out to the reader an infinite rable of things about this Ihon Husse good aud bad,Iohn Fox his mad treatise of Io. Husse. true and false but all to his prayse for 80. columnes or pages together of his vaste book (but with such con­fusion as no man can tel what to say or iudge of yt) at length he commeth to repeat the ab­surd propositions before mencioned namely about Prelats and Princes, that they leese their authoritie when they fal into mortal sinne, which Fox is so farre of from misliking, or denying, as he wryteth, that Husse defended the same, and sayd he would proue yt, not only out of Scriptures (by example forsooth of Saul that was deposed and slayne) but by the authorities also of all old auncient doctors,Fox Pag. 564. 1. col num 5. to wit, S. Augu­stine, Ierome, Chrysostome, Gregory, Cyprian, & Ber­nard, (a most impudent brag of a shamels here­tyke) and when Ihon Fox hath told all this, and much more, and made a long Cata­logue or trētal of his worst articles, he putteth [Page 20] downe his Iudgment of him in those words.

These hrings (sayth he) thus declared, Fox Pag. 569. col. 1. nu. 5 [...] a man may 25 easely vndestand that Ihon Husse was not accused for holding any opinion cōtrary to the Articles of our fayth, but because he did stowtly teach and preach against the Kingdome of Antichrist, for the glory of Christ, and re­storing of the Churche.

Lo heere the truth of Ihō Fox, that Husse, was not so much as accused (much lesse condemned) for holding any one opinion against any article of our Christian fayth. But let the reader see the articles in the councel, and then wil he cry shame of Ihon Fox, and all his crooked cubbes though they haue no shame, especially in that they ob­iect to vs so often the doctrine of our schoole deuines for allowing the punishing of Tyrāts in some cases with so many limitations, con­ditions, and restrictions, as by vs are set downe therin. And yet these mē, approue the wicked opinion of Husse in this place as also of the Puritans before recited, that permitteth euery one of their Sect to attempt it at their owne pleasure, and iudgment, which all Catholykes do condemne as doth also this councel of Constance, that condemneth Iohn Husse nominatim of the same.

But let vs passe on to the other famous Champions of their Religion before men­cioned. For of Ihon Husse, this is sufficient yf not ouer much, he being so contemptible an heretyke as by this storie appeareth. Yet Ihon Fox sanctifieth & canonizeth him in his Ca­lender as before hath byn sayd, & the Hussites [Page] in Prage do keep for an honorable relyke of his sanctitie an old payre of leather breches in their publyke Churche, and do shew and kisse the same with great reuerence at certayne tymes, which yet I thinke both Ihon Fox, and S. F. would take scorne to do, and so do Ca­tholykes also, and thus much of Husse which in the Bohemiam tongue signifieth a goose & the K^t. sheweth himself but litle better for bringing him in and giuing him place in the forefrunt of his champions.

OF THE LEARNING & glorious disputatiōs of Martyn Luther, Symon Grinaeus, Peter Martyr, Beza, and other protestants boasted of by our K^t. CAP. IIII.

1 I Must now come downe lower to other more fresh champions of Protestant Reli­gion, to wit, from Io. Husse, to Martyn Luther, and other by him named. And as for the first that is Luther, I wil be much shor­ter detecting only some notorious false points affirmed by S.F. partly as I take it of ignorāce, partly perhaps of worse meaning: the igno­rance appeareth in that he sayth Martyn Luther first to haue gone to Wormes there by disputation to defend his doctrine before the Emperour; and States, and after agayne to [Page 21] haue gone to Augusta to the same before Car­dinal Caëtan the Popes Legat:Cochl. Sur­sleid in their histories an. 1518. & 1521. wheras in deed his going to Augusta was three yeares be­fore his going [...]o Wormes, to wit 1518. where the other was 1521. as both by Cochleus, Surius, and Sleidan, & others both Catholyke and heretical writers is manifest. Secondly the whole narration of S.F. is false touching the stout behauiour of Luther to the Cardinal legat, to wit, that he stood to iustifie his assertions, and offered there or els where to defend them,VVast. Pag. 3 [...] sending a wryting in defence to the Card▪ to iustifie his opinion by the Scriptures, and that the Card. would heare no Scriptures, but wil­leth him to come no more to his presence, vn­lesse he would recant.

In all these words I say, though somwhat 2 be true yet are there many falshoods, and di­uers vntruthes ioyned therwith. For first it is set downe both by Cochleus that was present and Surius that lyued soone after, yf not at that same tyme, & had authentical relation of that which passed, that Maximilian the Emperor, being yet aliue called this yeare a diet at Au­gusta, partly for warre against the Turks, partly for troubles raysed vp by Luthers new doctrine begunne the yeare before, Pope Leo decimus sent Card. Caëtan for his Legat thither for both causes.Luth. at Au­gusta 151 [...] For albeit he had cited Luther to Rome before, vpon relation of his new opiuions, yet by intercession of Frederick Duke of Saxony desyring the Iudges might be appoynted to heare the cause in [...] [...]ermany, he [Page] had committed the hearing yf the said cause vnto the said Card. to whom Luther came by force and not of free wil, as our K^•. fayneth, neyther had he yet safe conduct of the Em­peror, but only the letters of his patron Duke Frederick in his commendation to the sayd Card. Legat requesting that he might returne safe.

3 Wherfore he being afrayd what the Card. would decree of him,The dissim [...] ­lation of Martyn Lu­ther vvith Card. Ca [...]tan gaue him the fayrest words in the world, and the first day being vrged to recāt his opinions desyred space only to deliberate: and the second day comming to him agayne, and finding foure of the Em­perors counsel with him, to dissemble the more gaue vp this protestation in wryting, Ego frater Martinus, Luthers first protestation. an. 1512. &c. ‘I Fryar Martyn Luther of the order of S. Augustine do protest, that I do reuerence and follow the holy Roman Churche in all my sayings and doings both present past, and to come, and that if any thing hath byn sayd by me, or shal be said contrarie or otherwyse then this, I do desyre, that it should be esteemed and holden as not spoken.’

4 And after this being vrged agayne by the Card▪ Cochl. & Sur ibid. to reuoke his errors perticularly, he de­sired that he might answer in wryting, flat­tering the Card. with many prayses, and fair words, but yet so tempered he his style in ans­wering, as the Cardinal easely did see that he meant to proceed in the said errors stil, and signified so much vnto him, whervpon he being afrayd, least the Card. would imprison [Page 22] him, he procured by his frends a publyke safe cōduct of the Emperors officers which assone as euer he had, he appealed from the Legat to the Pope, and put the appellation vpon the walles of the towne, & so stole away, wryting first notwithstanding very fayre letters to the Card▪ at his departure, but vnto others very skoffingly, and contemptuouslie of him, This is the summe of that which the two foresaid Authors and others do write of the doings of Luther this yeare at Augusta let the reader iudge how worthelie S. F. doth vaunt of his chalenge and disputation, and how many lyes there be in his words before set downe.

The second vaunt of Luthers disputation 5 at Wormes before the new yong Emperor Charles the fifth,Luther at VVormes 1521. before the Emperor. and his parlament there ga­thered together three yeeres after, to wit, 1521. is much more vayne, and vntrue. For wheras S.F. sayth,VVast. Pag. Ibid. that before the Emperor himself, and the whole states of the Empire he mayntayned his doctrine, answered the aduersaries, and with the Emperors fa­uour departed in safetie, though ful sore against the mynds and wils of some Papists. Yet the truth is this that ensueth for which I alleage my two Authors aforesaid, one of them present at the act it selfe which he published soone after in print S. F. alleaging none at all for his vanities.

At the sayd diet or Parlament of Wormes 6 when the most learned man Ieronimus Aliander the Popes Nuntius had propounded the great troubles and dissentions which had rysen the [Page] last three yeares since Luthers being at Au­gusta by continuance and increase of his here­sies,Cochl. in vita Lutheri. Sur. in hist anno 1521. and had recyted out of one of his books, De captiuitate Babilonica lately come forth aboue 40. places which tended all to sedition, & per­turbation of the common wealth, Fredericus Duke of Saxony his Patron being much asto­nished to heare those things, requested that he might haue safe conduct to be sent for, and so he was by a Pursevaunt of the Emperors, na­med Sturmius: so that this tyme also his co­ming was not of free wil as S. F. wil haue yt, but of necessitie, nor came he to dispute but to answere for himselfe. And the foresayd Au­thors do name his compagnions that came with him,Ionas Scur­fus Ambs­dorfius. the sumptuous and delicate manner of his iorney the good chere, and musick in his Innes,Luthers be­hauiour in his iorney to the Empe­rour. and how he himself being yet in a fryers weed played opēly on a Lute as he rode in the Coache, and other such things as Coch­laeus being present did see with his eyes; and I let passe to recount yt in particular for breui­ties sake.

7 But for the principal matter in hand which is his braue disputing wherof S. F. braggeth I read of none at all. For in his first comming before the Emperor and States the first day he was commaunded to harcken only,Luthers ans­vvers and behauiour the first day before the Emperour. and to speak nothing that was not demaunded: and then the Catalogue of his books going in his name before recyted publykely, he was asked whether he acknowledged them for his or no? which he saying that he could not deny but [Page 23] they were his, & being asked agayne whether he would recal them or noe? he desyred most humbly to haue space of deliberation, which with much a doe they graunted him vntil the next day at the same houre,His ansvvere the second day. which being come he appeared agayne, when not answering sim­ply, but deuiding his books into three kynds, sought only to draw out the tyme, which they perceyuing, he was so pressed by the Em­peror, and nobles present to say of or on, that in the end he sayth he would do nothing against his conscience, nor recal any book of his except he were conuicted first by the testi­mony of the Scripture, and then he concludeth with these German words Got helf myr, Amen. that is, God helpe me, Amen. shewing therby the feare that he was in.

Then foloweth the sentence of the Em­peror 8 some dayes after giuen against him, written with his owne hand to the Lords and Princes of the Empire, a noble sentence, and worthy to be read by all Princes,The deter­mination of Charles the Emperor against Lu­ther, after he had heard him. he being not past 20. yeates of age maketh such a Protestatiō of his Catholyke fayth according to the belief of all his Ancestors as may be an example to all other Princes. And towards the end of the said Parlament he published an Edict against Luther, and all his followers by consent of the whole coūcel, affirming, amōgst other things, Lutherum non hominem sed diabolum esse sub humana specie. That Luther was no man, but a deuil vnder the shape of a man, and this was the end of that combat of Luther.

[Page] 9 But he wrote afterward these Actes of Wormes himselfe, and sayth among other vayne adulations of himselfe, that the people so much fauored him, as one of the companie cryed out (belyke some poore woman that was his Hostes, or other new sister bewiched by him) Beatus venter qui te portauit. Luther in act. VVormat. Blessed was the belly that bare thee, which yet other Au­thors do not testifie.

But yf it were so, yt was no lesse vanitie, & arrogācie in him to report yt of himself, then madnes in the other to make that comparison of him with Christ, and yet it seemeth he was made therby both more proud and obstinate. For albeit he were dealt with all afterward by diuers sent vnto him by the Archb. of Triuers, and others of that counsel to reforme himself, yet would he not, but stil remitted himself to the word of God: which the Em­peror vnderstanding sent vnto him his Secre­tarie the chancelor of Austria commanding him, that within one and twentie dayes he should depart, and put himselfe within his owne securitie agayne, vpon his owne peril. And this was the Emperors fauour of which S.F. so much braggeth that Luther departed from Wormes in safetie, which was to much fauour in deed considering eyther his merits, or the publyke dammages insued by him after­ward to the world, and happie had yt beene for many thousand soules yf he had byn dealt withal as Iohn Husse was.

10 But now touching Symon Grinaeus, which [Page 24] is his third example,Fox Act. and men. pag. 1884. excō ­ment. Me­lanch. in c. 10. Dan. brought in to shewe the great learned men of his syde, which he took out of Ihon Fox (though for pryde he wil not confesse yt) what doth it proue to his purpose though yt were in all respects as Fox alleageth yt out of Melāchton, as good an author as him selfe,The vayne brag of Symō Grynaeus his learning, & disputation. the storie is this. Symon Grinaeus being at the towne of Spire in the yeare 1529. when Ferdinandus K. of the Romanes was present, and hearing Faber Bishop of Vienna a famous learned man make a Catholyke Sermon, he went to him secretly (as Me­lanchton reporteth) after the Sermon ended, warning him of certayne errors in his Sermō, as he termed them, being in deed points of Ca­tholyke doctrine, & offring to conferre with him yf he would about the same: But the Bishop being called for at that present by the King told him he could not then, but deferred the same vntil the next day, and in the meane space the Kings officers being informed that Grynaeus a Lutheran was in the towne, and seeking to apprehend him, the Protestants hea­ring of yt, they attributed it vnto the B. pro­curement (which perhaps was false) and Grynaeus rāne away by night ouer the Ryuer of Rheene, and so escaped.

This is the storie of Grynaeus, as his best 11 frends tel it, wherin yow see there is no men­cion of disputation, but only of running away, and how then doth this proue that S. F. men are better learned then ours, especially the last two Luther and Grynaeus a Lutheran, who [Page] are as eager against S. F. with all the learning they haue as they are against vs,Enc. 1. cap. 4. & 5. as I haue s [...]e­wed at large by their words deeds and wry­tings in the former Encounter. And more­ouer the learning they had, they receyued frō vs among whom they were brought vp, and not from those of S.F. syde. And consequently we may better brag of them then he, yf any thing were in them worth bragging at all as in deed there was not when they fel from the Catholyke Churche to wrangling and he­resie.

12 There remayneth then the last brag of our K^t. about the colloquy at Poysie in France by Peter Martyr,About the Colloquie at Poysie be­tvveene Ca­tholykes, & protestants. Beza, and other 12. ministers, wherof S. F. vaunteth as though the Catho­lykes had receyued the worst in that meeting: but who shal be iudge of this? S.F. alleageth no Author at all, but his owne word, saying, that our Card▪ of Loraine was in a pitiful taking there, and that I must needs yeild, VVast. Pag. 39. that eyther their men were more learned thē ours there, or that (which he more desyreth) that their cause was better. Wherfore I shal alleage here the summe of the matter out of the best authors that haue written therof as Belleforest, Surius, Pegnillus B. of Mets, and Clau­dius de Sanctis who was present, and then let the reader himselfe be Iudge.

13 First then the truth is this, that Charles the nynth K. of France being newly come to his Kingdome (a child of 12. yeares old) & fin­ding all in warre and garboyle, and that the murder of his predecessor had byn designed [Page 25] in Geneua the yeare before,Chro. geneb. pag 457. & Sur. in iust. an. 1561. by Caluyn, Beza, Otoman, and others, as Genebrard and Surius do testifie, thought yt expedient (or at least-wayes his mother the Queene) to permit this meeting, somwhat therby to mitigate the he­retykes that were in armour, though it being amongst swords on euerie syde the Catho­lykes did mislike therof, and some refused to come thither: others that came complayned greatly,Complaint of F Laynetz of the collo­quie at Poisie and among others Iacobus Laynets a Spaniard, and great learned man, General af­terward of the Iesuites, who spoke openly against it in the colloquie yt self, shewing that it was rather a betraying of religion, then defending yt, to put it in dispusation with such disaduantage, when the Hugonots were in the ruffe, and had taken Newhauen, Roane, and most of the chiefe holdes round about, threatning also to ouer-rūne all France, as for the greatest parte they did the yeare following and so was this colloquy dissolued (sayth Ge­nebrad) without any fruite at all.Geneb. anno 1561.

Herevpon diuers bragging, and lying books 14 were set out by the heretykes of this meeting, and their victorie therin, as though they had gayned all: and one shamed not to say and write, that the Catholykes had yeilded, and offred to become all Protestants: wherof Genebrard writeth thus:Geneb. Pag. 464. Impudentissimum est mendacium quod Lauaterus scribit, colloquutores Ca­tholicos consensisse cum ministris. Lauat. in hist. de re Sacrament [...] It is a most im­pudently that Lauater (a Swinglian histo­riographer) doth wryte, that the speakers of [Page] the Catholyke partie (in Poysie) did agree in opinion with the Ministers. And then he ad­deth that the sequel of this Colloquie or con­ference was most bloody warre that ensewed presently throughout all France, and endured for 18. yeares together, and in the verie next yeare after, he sayth that France suffred more in that one yeare of Frenchmen themselues enraged with heresy, then in all former ages by strangers. At what tyme also England took Newhauen into their hands deliuered by the Hugonots.

15 This was the case then of the temporal state when this armed meeting of Hugonots was appoynted in France, rather vpon neces­sitie, and feare (as the Queene mother of Frāce after excused hirselfe, and that famous learned Bishop Claudius Sanctius testifieth it of her owne mouth) then of election & deliberation.Claud. de Sainctes in resp ad Apol. Beze. And to this colloquie for the Protestants came 12. ministers, wherof 8. or 9. were Apostata Fryars as the sayd Claudius (that was present) and Surius do write,Sur. in hist. anno. 1561. and testifie wherof the chiefe and head of those that came from Ge­neua was Beza,Theod. Beza. Peter Martyr and other Ministers. but of the other that came frō Germany the principal was Peter Martyr, who disagreing from Beza almost in euerie one point to be disputed on (especially about the Eucharist, and baptisme, for that Peter was a playne Swinglian, and no Caluenist) no one thing could be thorowly cōcluded betweene them, which was no smal help to the Catho­lykes in that terrible tyme, who notwith­standing [Page 26] lost not their courages, but stood to it and took their places as superiors and Iudges of heretykes (especiallie the Bishops, and other Prelates) next to the King, and other Princes, and made the ministers that would haue thrust themselues in also, to stand a loof, with this reproch as Sanctius sayth,Apoc. 22. foris autem canes, and yt was no litle mortification to their high stomachs to heare those words, and to be so contemptuouslie vsed, who came into France to that meeting most proud, & magnificentlie prouided and more lyke warlyke triumphers,Resp. ad Apol. Beza. then Apostolycal teachers, as the same author describeth yt in a book dedicated to Beza himself.

And first he sheweth how and in whose 16 Coches,The pompe and disso­lution of the Caluinian ministers going to poi sie. horslytters and other such furniture they were brought into Fraunce, how sump­tuouslie feasted, & entertayned vpon the way with concourse, and meetings of noble men, but especiallie of noble womē who receyued, cherished, and banketted them most sump­tuously, with some wherof he sheweth, that Bezas owne compagnions accused him to haue byn ouer familiar, & to haue had some­tyme fowre houres conference in great se­cresy, to wit, he and shee in a Chamber alone, and moreouer he sheweth that Beza his cre­ditors whome he had deceyued at his first flying out of France, were now vpon his back agayne and called vpon him hotly for their money, but in vayne for they had both fauour of great Princes, and good [Page] Hargubushes also to answere for them.

17 After this he sheweth that passing through France with an army following them, when they came to Poysie, they were lodged all in a monasterie, where there was such won­derful prouision of delicate bedding, furniture of chambers, and good cheare made for them by those of their faction, as yf they had byn Princes of the blood royal of France, and that whensoeuer they went thence to the assembly so many chaynes of gold, so many Captaynes & noble men went before them for their ho­nour, as was maruelous, and ridiculous, but much more when they returned home againe frō the assembly, they had procured that each of them should haue some great man, and go­uernor of some place or Prouince ready to leane vpon,VVonderful delicatenesse of [...]posto­lical Mini­sters. and to lead them by the arme to their coaches or horselitters, as though they had byn verie wearie which earnest disputing for the Ghospel.

18 But let vs heare that most learned man Bishop Sanctius his owne words, that was present, and sawe yt, and obiecteth the same to Beza himselfe as principal actor at that tyme.

‘Sainct in resp. ad Apol. Bez [...]a.Do yow remēber (sayth he) when twelue of yow ministers, were caried from S. Germās towne (by Paris) to Poysie, in noblemens coches, and horselitters couered with silk, & accompagnied with great troupes of Soul­diors, going not as Apostolical teachers, but Martial Ministers, at what tyme euery one of [Page 27] yow had eyther some great man, and Go­uernor of Prouinces at your sides, when yow went out of the Monastery vpon whose arme yow must leane lyke delicate virgins, or noble women great with child, and then going into the Inne of the signe of the Ange [...], yow were richlie banqueted all in siluer and gold plate, good exquisite wynes, pleasant Musick, and great concourse of nobles to cōgratulate yow the victorie against Catholykes: and then your bankets ended, your fashion was (yf yow remember) to get yow to coche agayne, and to runne vp and downe woods, and feildes for recreation, soūding out your Geneua psalmes, and other songs to refresh your spirits.’

‘Oh what a sight was it to see 8. or 9. of your Company that were poore Monks and Fryars a litle before,VVanton Monks and Pryars made nevv Gospel­lers. and most of them of the poorest begging orders, who had scarse dry bread at home to feed on, and were commonly the, re­fuses and worsser sort of their Monasteries, now to be so pampered in silke apparel and with delicate fare, and to haue great part of the nobilitie of France to wayt vpon them, and to lead them vp & downe, leaning vpon their armes and shoulders, as if they had byn Mayden Queenes, or great noble women, and no lesse delicately then yow Beza at home in Geneua lead vp and downe your Candida. And this was the preface or proeme of the new reformation, which these Apostolical men were to make in France.’

Thus farre wryteth the learned Bishop 19 [Page] Sanctius. And surely the pitiful Tragedies that folowed presently vpon this proheeme before these fellowes left France are incre­dible, (yet much therof may be seene in Bel­forest, Surius, and others in their histories of the yeare 1562. to which I do remit the reader) and only for our purpose of disputa­tion I say,The good vvhich came of the Collo­quie of Poysie that albeit any great euent could not be expected of this meeting for matters of re­ligion in such tymes of garboyles, and with such men: yet this good came to the Catho­lyke cause therby, that yt was easely perceyued by discreet men, what difference there was betweene the teachers of the one, & the other syde, both in lyfe, and substance of doctrine. For as for lyfe and manners diuers of their owne syde were so scandalized with these twelue Champions behauiour, as they neuer after liked their sect, but returned by litle and litle to Catholyke Religion agayne. And as for substance of doctrine this at the least was seene of all, that the Catholykes agreed in one and shewed their lyke agreement in and by all former ages.

But the new ministers could not agree fully (as hath byn sayd) in any one point.Dissention of the mini­sters of Poysie. For about the Eucharist Peter martyr following Swin­glius held yt for a figure and trope only, and the bread but a bare signe. But Beza following Caluyn, had a new deuise: that yt was the verie true real and natural body of Christ, but yet spiritually, and with this word spiritually, he cutteth of all agayne that he had yeilded be­fore, [Page 28] and yet would he not agree in any [...]ase that yt was a signe only with the Swin­glians.

The lyke controuersie was among them 20 about baptisme to wit whether yt were good, and auaylable or no, yf yt were done in tyme of necessitie by a priuate man or woman, and not by a Minister,Pegnil. 1. de disen [...]. mini­stros in Col­loque Pois. which the most parte of those Ministers denyed, as appeareth by the proper letters of Beza and Tafinus head Mi­nister of Mets,Sanct. in resp. ad Apol. Bezae. which Pegnillius Bishop of that cittie set forth in print, translated into Latyn out of French, as they were taken in Chalon of Champayne, and Sanctius testi­fieth to haue seene the originals, and knowne the subscription of Beza his owne hand.

So as these fellowes beeing at such warre, & 21 variance among themselues, & beeing able to agree fully in nothing, but only to be contrarie to Catholykes, what victorie could they get in this Colloquie at Poysie? or to what pur­pose think yow hath S. F. alleadged it, to proue therby the excellēt learning of his syde, seing yf there were any rare or singular lear­ning in these 12. Ministers, as God knoweth there was litle besydes pryde, & a wrangling spirit, it were rather to be ascribed (as before hath byn said) to our syde then to his: seing the most of them were Apostata Fryars and fugi­tiues of our campes, where they had studied, and learned their knowledge (yf they had any) except only the art of dissolution, and luxurie, which I leaue to S. F. his schoole. And so an [Page] end of this matter, & of the comparison which (as I said before) is hardly tryed by woords, & particuler examples, but yet whosoeuer wil make but a general viewe of the schooles and learning in the world at this day, may easely ghesse, yf he wil iudge indifferently.

22 The Champion O. E, whom we haue kept from the stage hetherto,An addition about O. E. vvhat be sayth touch­ing the diffe­rence of learning on both sydes. as saying nothing to this effect, steppeth in heere, as hot as a tost, shewing desyre to haue the matter tryed by disputation, and saying that our learned men being challenged by theirs to dispute in the be­ginning of this Q. vtterly refused it. Procure vs (sayth he) the lyke libertie to dispute in Siuil, Paris, or Millane, and see whether we wil refuse to come or no.

But seing we challenge them for so many yeares to dispute with them at home with lesse trouble, peril, and charges, and they refuse hitherto, who wil beleeue this ydle vaunt of going abroad? wherby the reader may see, that these men talk not what they think or meane to do, but what may entertayne tyme, and fil vp paper. And so much of his brag for the present, afterward we shal examin him more at large.

OF TVVO NOTABLE vntruthes layd vnto S. F. his charge for a preface by the warder before he come to the foure fayned positions, and how the K^•. de­fendeth himself therin. CAP. V.

ALL this hitherto that hath byn sayd in this Enconter, is but by the way of Preamble vnto the 4. false forged positiōs induced by the K^t. which is the proper subiect therof: and yet one poynt is to be hādled more, which is, that before the warder entreth to treat of the said positions and grounds which S. F. affirmeth to be principles [...]n Catholyke Doctrine, he chargeth him with [...]wo notorious vntruthes. For declaration wherof, I shal lay downe his owne words in [...]his manner.

But let vs see (sayth he) how our K^t. goeth 1 [...]orward in his tale,Pag. 12. after he hath told vs of [...]hese clouds,Manifest vn­truthes. mistes, and darkenes, that then [...]aigned, he addeth these words. ‘VVherūto (sayth [...]e) was added, and wher with was mixed all bloody & allage crueltie against those that desyred knowledge, & [...]re any way enlightened by Gods grace, with a glim [...]ring, or smal insight into true Religion. For though [...] were but only a desyre to read vpon the holy book of God, eyther the old or new Testament, then heretick [...]as his tytle, heresy was his fault, and for this was he [Page] called before the Romish Cleargie to receyue ther [...] censure. And such neuer departed from their clouche [...] til they had brandled them to the slaughter. This is his narration, wherin first we must separat [...] open and manifest lying from fond and rud [...] ignorance: for that the former is lesse suffe­rable (in a K^t. that holdeth accompt of honor then the second, especiallie in matters of diui­nitie. And then agayne.’

2 ‘And heere I must beginne in this very plac [...] sayth the warder to tel him, that two manifes [...] vntruthes properlie called lyes, (for that the [...] are wilful) are set downe by him in the word [...] alleaged, & knowne to be such to very Childre [...] and nouices in the Catholyke Religion.The first vn­truth. Th [...] first that it is holden for heresie, or euer wa [...] amongst vs to read vpon the Byble, or boo [...] of God (as his phrase is) in what languag [...] soeuer. For euer in vulgar tongues it is per­mitted to infinit lay people in all Catholyk [...] countryes by licence of the ordinarie as al [...] men know and yt cannot be denyed, which would neuer haue byn permitted, yf we had held yt for heresie.’

3 The other ly is, that for this fault only me [...] were called before the Romish Cleargie i [...] England and brandled to the slaughter.The 2. vn­truth. Thes [...] I say are apparant fictions, let the K^t. defend his honor in auowing them. This was my saying then, and how doth S. F. think you defend his honor now in auoyding them. He beginneth thus. Soft sir yow shal fynd yt harder t [...] conuince me of one ly then to charge me with many.

[Page 30]To whome I do answere, that I shal wil­lingly go as soft as he wil haue me to heare his proofes: only I wil ad this about the first vn­truth obiected, that in deed it is farre greater and more absurd, yf it be wel considered, then the warder before vrged, for that S. F. not only said in his watch word, that we hold the actual [...]rading vpon the holy book of God be it old or new Testament for heresy,See more of this infra. ca. 6. num. 12. but also the [...]nly desire therof to be no lesse, which is so [...]arre from all shew or shadow of truth in [...]eed, as the playne, contradiction therof is [...]u [...]dēt to babes among vs, to wit, that the Ca­ [...]olyke Churche doth not cōdemne, or punish [...]utwardly any inward desyre be it neuer so [...]icked, and heynous, so it break not foorth [...]o act, for that as the law sayth Deus solus in­ [...] de occult [...]s: God only doth iudge of inward [...]dden things, as desyres are. But let vs [...]rdon the K^t. this ouerlashing, seing he neuer [...]ad (I suppose) what Catholykes do hold in [...]is behalf. Wherfore let vs stand vpon that [...]nly which was before obiected about actual [...]ading of Scriptures, how doth he proue now [...]at we do hould it for heresie? and much [...]ore that we do brandle men to the slaughter [...] the same, which is his second vntruth. Su­ [...]y except he proue it substantially, he must [...]mayn conuinced of two great calum­ [...]tions.

For proof then of the first he alleadgeth 4 [...]ree reasons which are these. First that Ca­ [...]holyks do forbid vulgar translations not only [Page] of Protestants but also of their owne men,3. Reasons [...]or S. F. his ansvvere, and neuer a one concluding. except the Bishop or Inquisitor giue special licence ergò we hold it for heresy. Secondly that yt was obiected to Iohn Lambert for an [...] heretical opinion (which he alleageth out of Fox though he name him not) that he held,Pag. 41. Fox act. and monu. Pag. 1006. col. 1. num. 65. That all heads and rulers are bound by necessitie of Sal­uation to giue the holy Scriptures, to their people in thei [...] mother language. His third argument is, for tha [...] our Rhemists in their preface of the trāslation of the new Testament say, They do not publis [...] the Testament in English vpon any erronious opinio [...] of necessitie, that the Scripture; should alwayes be i [...] our mother tongue, or that they ought or were orda [...]ne [...] by God to be read indifferently of all. By which thre [...] Reasons he thinketh it sufficiently proued that we hold the reading of Scriptures for heresy.

5 But who seeth not that no one of these rea [...]sons nor all together do conclude any thing to that effect.The 3. rea­sons of S. F. examined. For to the first though Catholyke do forbid men to vse their owne vulgar tran­slations but with licēse, yet do they not forbi [...] yt as heresy for then (as I sayd) they woul [...] graunt yt to none: but they forbid it as a thin [...] wherof being abused heresy may follow, as a Father should forbid his children that a [...] weak, or indiscreet to drink strong wyne without water, least they be dronckē, or cat [...] an ague, he sayth not that the drinking it se [...] is drunkennes, or an ague, but that being abu [...]sed it may cause the same.

And so to the second: the reading of Scri [...]ptures [Page 31] was not obiected to Lambert as he­resie, but for that he was charged to hold it ne­cessarie vnder payne of damnation to giue the said Scriptures in vulgar languages to all people, which was an heretical, and false as­sertion. The Rhemists also (which is the third obiection) do cal the said opinion of Lambert about the necessitie of reading Scriptures in vulgar tongues by all sortes, erronious, and not the reading of Scriptures yt self.

Now then let vs heare and examine S. F. argument made vpon the words of our Rhe­mists 6 before recited.Pag. 47. The absurd, & vulearned manner of reasoning vsed by the Knight. Now (sayth he) yf to think the Scriptures may be read indifferently of all he in your iudgement an heretical opinion: then for men to read them is in your iud [...]ement, an heretical action. Mark (good Reader) [...]. F. manner of argument first he peruerteth the words alleaged by himself our of our Rhemists. For they say, It is erro­nious to put necess [...]tie for all to read. But he sayth, they affirme it heretical that all may read. Now be­tweene must & may erronious, & heretical, there is much difference. Then doth not this second proposition follow of his first, for though it be erronious or heretical to hold necessitie of publishing the Scriptures in English to all (as Lambert did hold) yet followeth it not, that [...]he reading it self is heretical: for a man may haue leaue to read and so auoyd all fault, and [...] Catholyke man vpon curiositie may chaūce [...]o read without leaue, and yet not beleeue he­ [...]etically, that it is necessarie to permit them [...]o be read of all. And to the end (good reader) [Page] thou maist see the vanitie of his former con­sequēce, consider the same in an other exāple. It is an erronious and heretical opinion to say, that all men and women may or must preach, teach and administer Sacraments without or­dination or licence, ergo it is heresy, or at least wayes an heretical action to teach, preach, & administer Sacramēts, who seeth not the folly of this consequence.

7 But now where-as the warder vpon this occasion entreth into the verie substance of the matter,The cheefe substance of the matter omitted by Syr F. shewing at large how and in what sense reading of Scriptures in vulgar tongues is forbidden in the Catholyke Churche, and vpon what causes and how farre, and to what persons, and to what end, and with what li­mitations, and how falsely heretykes do cauil, and slaunder them in this behalf and con­firmeth the same by many authorities, argu­ments, and euident reasons: as also that the right vnderstanding of Scriptures is a peculiar gift of God and not common to all, and that experience both of our, and old tymes, haue taught vs the great euils, and daungers which had ensued by schismes, heresies, and varieties of opinions gathered out of Scriptures by euil interpretation, alleaging also diuers examples for the same.

8 To all this (I say) being the pith and sub­stance of the whole matter S. F. answereth not one word according to his shift of omission before mentioned when he hath nothing to answere and therfore vsing silence in this he [Page 32] passeth ouer to the second vntruth obiected, that men are brandled to the slaughter for only reading vpon Gods book, leauing the first sticking on his sleaue, as yow see, and much more confirmed then remoued by his ans­were. For seing he affirmed it so stoutlie be­fore that we held it heresy, euen to think or desyre to read Scriptures in English; why had he not alleaged some one playne text, some Canon, some one sentence, some one Author of ours, some book, scrip or scrolle, where we say so, and where we do pronounce that first for heresie? why runneth he to so blynd & weake arguments, and coniectures as yow haue heard? Heerby yow may see what men of their word [...] conscience, and veritie they be, and I may say of this K^t. as Tertullian said of Marcion the heretyke,Tertul. lib. 5. ad Marc. cap. 14 [...] num. 231. quantas foueas fecit aufe­ [...]endo quae voluit? how many great gappes hath he made in my book leauing out what he would, or could not answer?

But now to the second vntruth whether 9 men were put to death in deed for only rea­ding scriptures:About the second vn­truth, vvhe­ther men vvere put to death for only reading scriptures. VVastvvord. Pag. 43. this dependeth of the first. For yf it be euident that we hold not that the only reading of Scriptures is heresie, as he affirmeth and we haue shewed the contrarie, then follo­weth yt not to be likely, that we brandle men to death with fyer for this fact: which is a pu­nishment due to heresie. Let vs see then what the K^•. sayth heere.

First of all he picketh a quarrel as though I had added somewhat to his wordes saying▪ Pag. 43. [Page] Before I proced to the iustifying of my speach, Pag. 43. geue me leaue to tel yow that this word (onely) by yow thrust into my words is one ly of your coyning though not the only one lye.

10 Heere (gentle Reader) I wil make the Iudge of this new quarrel, to wit, whether this new onely lyeth on his syde onlie, or on myne, and I wil cal no other witnesse, but the K^t. owne words to try the controuersie. Can I deale more franklie then this? Heare then himself against himself, for thus he wryteth. For though it were but onely a desyre to read vpon the holy book, &c. heretike was his title, heresie was his fault, and for this he was called before the Romish Cleargie, brandled, &c. If yow fynd only in his owne worde [...], then do yow lay this new onely where yow find yt, and there is an end of that matter, for with so open impudency I wil no further stryue.

11 It shalbe to no purpose also to refute that notorious,Pag 43. S. Francis vvorthy to ly for the vvhetstone. and ridiculously, where without cyting any author at all the K^t. sayth that an old Doctor among the Sorbons protested that he had studied more then 50. yeares ore he could tel what the new te­stament was, &c. Wil any man beleeue him in this? or is he not worthy to ly for the whet­stone, that wil auouche this in print? And yow must vnderstand by the way that the Doctors of Sorbon are Doctors of diuinitie, and haue much exercise out of the Scriptures before they can take degree, how thē did this Doctor neuer so much as heare of the new Testament in 50. yeares studie? But heare yet another as [Page 32] improbable as this without author also: An Italian Bishop (sayth he) told one Espeucaeus that his contremen durst not read the Scriptures, least they should become heretiks therby. A goodly tale. And what author is cited for this? none at all. Yow must take it vpon the K^•s. credit, and what that is, or deserueth to be his doings declare.

But now to the principal poynt, how doth 12 he proue that men were brandled to the slaughter for only reading the old or new Testament? VVast-vvord Pag. 44. he alleageth diuers exāples out of Ihon Fox in these words Our stories are ful of Examples out of your owne re­gisters that reading of Scriptures was accompted he­resie, and not to stand vpon many: Fox act. and mom. Pag. 752. & dein­ceps. vnder Longland B. of Lincolue Agnes welles was conuented and examined whether Thrustan did euer teach her the Epistle of S. Iames in English, VVel proued and Thomas Chase was charged for hearing the said Epistle read in English, Agnes Ashford for teaching Iames Norden certayne sentences of Scrip­ture in English, Robert Pope, Ihon Mordon and his wy [...]e that they recited the ten commandements in En­glish Ihon Fippes for that he was rype in the Scriptures and the lyke proceeding was vsed by other Bishops, as namely by Tonstal, then B. of London, before whom many were conuented for that holy heresie of reading Scriptures, &c.

Thus he sayth of whom a man may hardly 13 say whether he brought these exāples to proue or disproue his owne saying which is great simplicitie in any writer not to discerne what maketh for him, or what against him, seing by these examples in steed of prouing his second proposition he ouerthroweth both the first, & [Page] second: The second about brandling to death, for that these his owne examples do shewe that none of them that were accused were put to death for reading, but had some lighter pu­nishmēt only for their disobediēce in that act, his first proposition he ouerthroweth also, which was, that reading of Scriptures was accōpted heresie, for that the fault of reading scriptures in this place is ioyned, and equalled with things which no man wil say that we hold for here­sies, as the reciting of the 10. commandements in English, and the cy [...]ing of certayne places in our English tongue out of the Scriptures. And consequeutly these exāples if they be graunted to be true in fact (as the most of them are am­plified by Ihon Fox) yet proue they not, but directly rather do disproue that which the K^t. should proue.

14 Wherfore the only thing that these exāples do proue is,Examples fondly alle­adged that make against him. that the reading of Scriptures in vulgar language without licence, and perhaps heretical translations in tymes of heresies, and by such persons as can not be presumed to profit therby, may be a sufficient cause to the B. to conuent, apprehend, or examine them vpon suspition of heresie, as yf a ciuil Magi­strate in tyme when many robberies are com­mitted, shal cal in question, apprehend or exa­mine certayne men that spend much and haue litle of their owne, go gay in apparel & play at dice, and the lyke, by which they may be suspected of theft though the verie act of playing be not theft: and as yt should be slaun­derous [Page 33] and ridiculous in that case yf any man would crie out of that common wealth or Magistrate, saying, it were tyrannical, that men should be imprisoned for costly apparel, faring wel, or playing at dice, as though those acts were theft, or fellonie (which in deed are not, but only may induce to theft or giue sus­pition therof) euen so in our case, it is as meere a calumniation to affirme that we hold rea­ding of Scriptures for heresies which is false though in certayne persons in whome yt may perhaps engender heresie, or giue suspition therof thesame may be punished for disobe­dience and disposition to heresy. And this is sufficient, or rather superfluous in so vayne a matter against the babling of our fond kinght.

And by this is answered a lōg tale also that 15 he hath out of Fox of a book seller of Auinion in France condemned to death by the B. of Aix for selling french bybles in the vulgar tongue of whom S. F. concludeth in these words:VVastvvord. Pag. 46. And so exhorting the people to read the Scri­ptures, he was for this cause only cruely put to death. By which he would haue his reader vnder­stand, that only for reading Scriptures, and exhorting men ther-vnto he was cruely put to death which is playne cosenage. For in the storie of Fox himselfe, which the K^t. craftelie omitteth it is conteyned, that the bookseller vpon examination was found, an heretyke, & denied the authoritie of the Bishop and his of­fice, and other ecclesiastical Iudges, saying: [Page] That they were rather the Priests of Bacchus and venus then the true Pastors of the Churche of Christ, Fox act and mon. Pag. [...]63. col. 2. wher­vpon (sayth Fox) he was condemned, &c. So as S. F. corrupteth also Fox, and addeth more lyes to the most famous lyer, that euer perhaps took pen in hand, and with such men haue wee to do.

THE EXAMINATION of that which O. E. hath written concerning the former poyntes handled in the prece­dent fiue chapters: and that it is farre more impertinēt & desperate, then that which the Knight him self hath answered. CAP. VI.

1 IT may seeme much perhaps to the Reader that O. E. hath byn kept so long tyed vp from barking somwhat in these affayres before handled, but now we shal vncoople him, and yow shal heare how he wil behaue himself. I am constrayned to hold him back and to let him come in but heere and there for the causes before mentioned, to wit, that ha­uing ended my reply to S. F. a good while before I receaued this parteners book, I could not wel giue him accesse at euery. Qⁿ. where the matter required without disordering my whole former answere, and consequentlie I resolued to bestow a chapter on him here and [Page 43] there alone, wherin he might be heard, and all that he bringeth discussed, which is com­monly worse, and in worse order and me­thode, and with lesse shew of truth or proba­bilitie then thar which the K^t. & his ministers doe alleage. But as for scurrilitie of speech, in­solencie of brags, malepartnes in scolding,The exorbi­tant manner [...] of vvriting of the minister O. E. and impudency of lying he is farre more exorbi­tant, not only then any K^t. or knowne honest mā hitherto heard of, but euen then any other K [...]. whatsoeuer hath to this day (I suppose) vt­tered, or put in paper, which in parte yow shal perceyue by this my answere, albeit many things belonging to this poynt, I shal be forced for very shamefastnes both here, and other­where to passe ouer with silence. But now to the matter in hand.

Wheras before in the second Chapter of 2 this our answere is handled the controuersie,Cap. 2. nu. [...]5. & deinceps. whether the state of matters in Religion du­ring the tyme of Q. Maries raigne, and of other former English Catholyke Princes, was altogether in darknes, clouds, shadowes, mists, ignorance, and the lyke, as the watchman had affirmed: The warder by many cleare reasons and demonstrations sheweth the contrarie, & that among other poyntes, there was not a more learned Cleargie for many ages in En­gland then vnder Q. Maries gouernment. Whervnto what the K^t. hath replyed agayne in this his answere, yow haue heard before, now shal yow heare how this his prating procter O. E. doth iump in with him, aduer­tising [Page] yow by the way (yf yow haue not ob­serued yt before) of one notorious cogging tricke which this gamester hath aboue all the rest that euer I knew of his occupatiō (though I haue knowne fewe good, and many ba [...] ynough in this point) which is to interlace euery where almost his aduersaries words in a different letter,A notorious cogging tricke. but euer commonly with some corruption, eyther in the sense, phrase or words themselues, puting downe somwhat of his owne oftentymes for his aduersaries, & so of this we shal note yow examples now and then, as we shalbe forced and the matter vrge vs thervnto, though many tymes we shal let it passe, not to spend tyme in brabling at euery meeting.

3 Now then to the foresaid enumerations of good, and learned Bishops, and other cleargie men, in Q. Maries dayes, he answereth thus: First admit these men whom he nameth were great Doctors, Pag 42. yet it followeth not therof, but that the people liued in great error and blindnes. Sup. cap. 4. Yea S. wil yow say so? and what (I pray yow, doth make the people intelligent, and skilful, in that which they ought to beleeue, & do, but the learning and skil of their Doctors, & teachers?Ibid. But (sayth he) [...]ewe of the people could say their Pater noster, and beliefe, and of those that could by harte say them, not one among twentie vnderstood them. And how can O. E. proue this in particular? If he were in forrayne Cath. countryes at this day, and did heare the common people, yea children and babes to answere in these, and lyke poyntes of [Page 36] Christian doctrine set foorth by the Churche, and exercised in a [...] places, not only particular Churches, houses, colleges, and communities, but euen in market places also vpon all son­dayes, holy and festiual dayes, and other dedi­cated to this exerc [...]se: If our peart minister (I say) did see this, and how farre this diligēce piety, and charity of our Catholyke Cleargie exceedeth his for instructing youth, & cōmon people in the necessary points of Christian in­stitution he would eyther be ashamed of his [...]ayne bragge, and false exprobation, or with a brasen face deny that which his owne eyes, & [...]ares should be witnes of against him.

But now eyther not knowing this or not 4 thinking it conuenient for his honor to con­fesse somuch, he goeth forward in this his folly.Ibid. Like parrats (saith he) they said Credo in Deum, but vnderstood not what they said. A lack poor men, and was there no creed in English for them that vnderstood not latyn? and was [...]here no mā to teach them, what Credo in Deum meant, before Martyn Luther came, who [...]aught vs among other points,Vid Enc. [...] cap. 5. that Zwingliās and Caluenists Maisters of O. E. are wholie possessed and guided by the deuil as largely we haue shewed before. But let vs heare him further.Ridiculous reasoning of [...]he minister. They prayed likewise (saith he) but vnder­stood not what they prayed. But I would aske him, whether God vnderstood them or noe, to whom they prayed? or whether themselues vnderstood their owne meaning, & intention, and what they needed or desired most to ob­tayne [Page] at Gods hands? And if neyther of these points can be doubted of, then is it foolish which followeth immediatly in the minister: Now what auayleth it to pray with the lippes, if the hart vnderstand nothing? This I say, is a foolish inferēce, for that the heart of h [...]m that prayeth vnderstandeth his owne affection, and God that knoweth all languages vnderstandeth in like manner the sound of his lippes in what tongue soeuer.

5 He goeth forward. Li [...]ewise they came to Churche and heard Mattins, Pag. 42. euensong, and masse in latyn, but what were English peopl [...], that vnders [...]ood no latyn, the better? They were the better S^•. for that they were pertakers of the publike prayer of the Churche made for all, by those that vn­derstood latyn,The fruite of deuotion by bring at publique Ca­tholike ser­uice though i [...] be in La­tyn. and besydes this publike merit of the whole Churche (which in such deuou [...] meetings is the greatest) they enioyed the fruit also of their owne priuate deuotions, petitions, prayers, and holy desyres, which in tyme of the publike euery mā exercised, which is an other manner of fruit, & worketh farre different effects of pietie, and good lyfe then doth the presence of the protestant common people sitting downe & looking about or tal­king & bargayning one with an other, neuer kneling, praying, or attending lightly what is said or song by the Minister, but so much as may concerne their temporal affayres, vnder­standing commonly as litle of the sense of that which is song or said (though they vnderstād the English words) as when it was in latyn: [Page 37] & this is seene by the bad fruits therof which both England, and other nations doe dayly feele.

And as for the publike seruice, & Christian 6 sacrifice it self called the Masse, About the Latyn Masse. wherunto Ca­tholyke people do resort withal reuerence, to be present and assist, for acknowledging their bound duety, and humble deuotion towards almighty God, by this publike adoration ap­pointed by him in his Churche, it is not neces­sary, that all particular people should vnderstād all the words therin vsed by the Priest and publike minister in administration therof: to which effect read in the beginning of S. Lukes ghospel that Zacharias the father of S. Ihon Baptist being a leuitical priest and comming to his turne to do the publike seruice for the whole people,Luc. 1. the Scripture saith of him. Sorte oxijt vt incensum poneret, ingressus in templum Do­mini, & omnis multitudo populi erat orans foris hora incensi. It fel to him by lot that he should go into the temple of God to offer incense, & all the multitude of people did pray without at the howre of incense.

Lo heere the whole multitude of people 7 came to the publike seruice appointed in the Churche,A pondera­tion of the fact of Za­charie father to S. Ihon Baptist. though they neyther vnderstood all of them the language, wherin it was made (for it was in Hebrew, and their vulgar language was Syriack at that tyme) neyther yet if they had vnderstood it, were they admitted so neare, as they could heare it, but standing a farre of were content to pray alone, and to [Page] ioyne in hart and affection with the priest Za­charie, and God we see was highly pleased therwith, and sent an Angel to ta [...]k with h [...]m in that place, and to tel him the good newes of his sonne S. Ihon Baptist soone after to be con­ceaued and borne into the world, all which speach and conference the people heard not, but wondred to see him come foorth dome, but yet were they partakers also of his bles­sing, for that the Chyld was to be borne no lesse for their good, then for his.

8 By this then we see the pratling of O. E. against prayers in latyn, Masse, mattins, and euen-song. &c. is partly false in the fact it selfe, and wherin it may be true it concludeth nothing to his purpose, yet he goeth on in his rayling manner,Pag 43. saying; they were likewise taught to pray not only to Angels, Saints, and to our Ladie; but before stocks and stones, &c. But let this whipster tel vs, where they were taught to say o stock, or o stone helpe vs, or pray for vs &c. As for our Lady, Saints & Angels, they liuing in glorie, & enioying the perpetual presence, sight, & high fauour of Almighty God,About praying to our Lady, Angels, & Sainctes. they may pi­ouslie be prayed vnto for their assistance to their Lord & maister, without any derogation of his diuine honor, but rather with much encrease therof, and so were they wont to be prayed vnto in the ancient Christian and Ca­tholyke Churche by better men, more learned and deuout then euer O. E. or any of his com­pagnions are, or meane to be; as namely S. Basil hom. 20. in 40. Martyrs, praying to the said [Page 38] martyrs, S. Greg. Nazianzen orat. [...]n laudem Ciprian [...] Martiris, The practise of ancient f [...]thers in praying to saincts. maketh his prayer to the said S. Ci­prian, as also vnto S. Athanasius, and to S. Basil, after they weare dead. orat. de laude Athan. & orat. funeb. in laud. Basilij, S. Chrisostome also prayed to S. Peter. Ser. in adorat. venerabiliū catena­ [...]ū S. Apostolorū Principis Petri, in his sermon vpon the adoration of the venerable chaynes wher­with S. Peter Prince of the Apostles was tyed. S. Ambrose inuoketh also thesame Apostle, comment. in cap. 22. Luc. S. Hierome doth the like to the holy widdow S. Paula then dead, in Epi­taph. Paulae viduae. And S. Augustine to S. Cy­prian and other saincts lib. 7. de Bapt. contra Donat. cap. 1. and els where. And thesame might I shew by infinite other examples of those, and other tymes ensuing. And now if any man wil be so mad, as to preferre the scoffes and contemptuous words of a contemptible bro­ken souldier minister, cōtemning both saincts and sanctitie, God and godlines, before the facts and deeds of such, and so many worthy fathers, and most notable pillars of Christs Churche, let him do it alone for me.

And with this would I shake of this bar­king whelp but that he runne [...]h after vs stil crying that our forenamed Bishops and Pre­lates of Q. Maries tyme shewed themselues vnlearned,O. E. Pag. 4 [...]. for that when in the beginning of this Q. [...]ayes, they were chalenged to dispute, they feeling their owne weaknes vtterly refused. This for the most part to be a notoriously, both Ihon Fox, and our common Chronicles do testifie, [Page] who write that they accepted of a certayne conference at westminister,Stovv. an Eliz reg. 2 1559. but if they were not willingly drawne therunto, or that the fruite therof was like to be litle, seing the conditions both of the tyme, place, iudges, and order of disputation it selfe were nothing at all conforme to equitie and reason,About the disputations betvveene Catholikes, and Prote­stants in England. the tyme being wholy bent to a change, the state against them, the place inconueniēt the Iudges eyther aduersaries, or Atheists, the manner only by way of dialogue, or conference in writing without admitting of scholastical argumen [...], but so many offers of aequal disputations ha­uing byn made since that tyme by Catholyke Priests, both in woord, writing, and books printed, and so many earnest petitions geuen vp about the same together with most indif­ferent, and reasonable orders of trial appoin­ted thervnto, and refused euer hitherto by pro­testant ministers: All this (I say) being so, it wel sheweth of what truthe or substance the brag of this litle mounte-banck may beare, (which I meane for his litle learning iudgmēt or honestie, though otherwise they report him to be a compagniō grosse ynough) when he writeth:Pag. 43. Procure vs the like libertie to disputti [...] Siuil, Paris, or Millane, & see whether we wil r [...]fus [...]t [...] dispute with these great Rabbins or no. And agayn a litle after, wherfore let this lunatical, and ex [...]a [...]u [...] friar eyth [...]r forbeare to brag, or els procure vs [...] to dispute.

10 Thus sayth this feruent, and forward ge [...]leman, who dyeth with desire of disputing, [...] [Page 39] great pittie it is that the good man had not byn of yeares and wit, when the councel of Trent was, who gaue liberty to all Protestants to come thither, and to dispute their fil, for then by his iorney thither he might haue both satisfied himself, and saued the honors of his brethren the English Ministers that durst not goe, And as litle meaneth he to go to Siuil or Millane whatsoeuer he talketh in this lunatical, and extatical feruour of his to entertayn tyme, and such simple people, as wil beleeue him.

And now from this matter he leapeth to [...] 11 new without order, method, or coherence of one with an other (for so is his fashion) more like indeed to a wel tippled head, then exta­tical spirit, neyther can any methode set downe in the wardword hold him to any, as it doth oftentymes the K^t. but that he wil rush vpon that first which I handle almost last, and consequently trouble order in euery point; And as for the learned mē of his order alleaged by S^r. F. to wit Ihon Husse, Martyn Luther, Symon Grynaeus, Peter Martyr, Beza, Bas­sanet, and others before treated of, this fellow doth not so much as name them, esteeming himself as aequal with the best, and a prin­cipal pillar of his poor churche.

He falleth then vpon the controuersie be­fore 12 handled by me against S^r. F. whether Ca­tholykes do hold reading of Scriptures to be heresie, S^r. F. (as yow haue heard) wēt so farre in that matter, as he said, that though it were but [Page] only a desyre to read vpon the holy book of God, eyther the old or new Testament, then heretike was his name, and heresie was his fault, &c. Cap. 5. nu. 1. But seing him to to farre ouer the shuwes in that exaggeratiō of speach,VVhether [...]atholiks hold reading of Scriptures in vulgar lan­guages to [...] heresy. I dealt more mildly with him, to recal his wordes from desire to deed, and fact of reading, shewing against him that not only the inward desire, but neyther the external reading it self was held by vs for heresy con­firming thesame with diuers reasons,Ser. sup. ca. 5. most euident, and manifest, as that it can neuer be found in catalogue of heresies written by any of our syde, neyther that it can be con­teyned in the definition of heresie, geuen by vs. And finally for that we do permit rea­ding of Scriptures in all languages, yea vulgar translations also with discretion, and choyce, and with licence of the superior, which we would not or could not permit, if it were he­resie.

13 But on the cōtrarie syde as yow haue heard the proofes which the K^t. alleageth to proue, that we hold reading of Scriptures for heresie are so chyldish, as they need no other answere, but only to relate them, as namely; for that we forbid some vulgar translations, and diuers of the com­mon people to read them, that some haue [...]yn appre­hended, and put in prison for reading Scriptures, Cap 5 nu 4.5.6. &c. and the like, which yow may see discussed more largely in the foresaid chapter. But now after all this said and dōne, and the same both seene and read by O. E. doth this wise noddle, that euery where calleth his aduersarie noddy, [Page 40] eyther hold his peace in this controuersie, or bring matter of more moment? no truly, for he can do neyther, pryde and lack of wit for­cing him to the former, and truth & learning say [...]ng him in the second. But let vs heare his owne words (yf yow please) and mark that when I cyte his wordes in a different letter, it i [...] euer with all sinceritie, & exactnes of truthe, but he contrariwise, maketh me speak often­tymes af [...]r his phrase, and therby altereth the whole sense.Pag. 4 [...]. For the first (saith he) it is very e [...]id [...]ntly d [...]spr [...]ued (to wit) that we accompt not r [...]ad [...]ng of the byble to be heresie) by diuers exa­minations in K Henry the eyght, and Q. Maries dayes, where it is ob [...]ected to lay men, that they read the Scri­ptures in Englis [...], which should not haue byn done, vnles by that article they should haue byn con [...]nced of her [...]sie.

Lo heere his whole argument, and all that 14 hevseth in this behalf; so as where Sir F. had alleaged 3. arguments, such as they were, and published thesame in print before, this poore compagnion comming after him, and seing what he had done, would needs be tampering also and make a new shew,The mini­sters fond behauiour. by alleaging one of the three, and the worst of all, adding vnto it a childish consequēce, that some men being examined in Catholike tymes vpon suspition of heresy, for that contrarie to their bishops, and Princes commandment, they were found reading of pohibited vulgar translations of Scripture. Ergo the verie reading of scriptures it self is accompted by vs for heresy. The [Page] ridiculous fondnes of which inference is ex­amined Sup. Enc. 1. cap. 8. & 9. E [...]c. 2. cap. 5.before by diuers examples, as yf play­ing at dice (for examples sake) should be tear­med theft, for that sometymes it may induce suspicion of theft, and the like. And this for the first poynt whether reading of Scriptures be heresy in it self?

15 As for the second, wherin Sir F. also was conuinced of falshood, affirming, that we did brāale men to death for only reading Scriptures; This copesmate is no lesse therin rash and ridicu­lous then in the former for thus he proueth it.Pag. 44. In the b [...]ginning of King Henrie the eight his raigne (saith he) certayne were condemned for reading the Epistle of S. Paule in English as appeareth by the regi­ster of Lincolne, Dioces. Wel, & what if it were so [...] condemning and burning are two things, a man may be condemned in other punishmēts then burning, and yet here is [...]o author cyted for this at all, except Ihon Fox tel vs this tale, as he doth many other as fond and false as this. But it followeth in this good fellowes narration. And B. Longland preaching at the bur­ning [...] said, Pag. Ibid. that they were damned that moued their lip­pes in reading those chapters of Scriptures, &c. Yea [...] and who testifyeth this, for heere is no author cited, and the tale is so improbable to them that knew how graue and learned a man B. Longland was, as without an author, they wil not beleeue it, though this compagnion do wearie his lippes neuer so long in telling it.

16 Wherfo [...]e at last the minister commeth to proue both these points with one authoritie [Page 41] of much lesse force, and with much more im­pudency then the other. Both these points (saith he) are proued by the prouincial consti­tution of Thomas Arundel (Archbishop of Caunterberie) who saith in a prouincial consti­tution;Const. Prou. C cap. Prae­tereā de hae­reticis. statuin [...]us, vt nemo textum aliquem sacrae scripturae authoritate sua in Linguam Anglicanam, seu aliam transerat, [...]c legatur aliquis huiusmodi liber vel publicè, velocculte sub paena maioris excōmunicationis. Qui verò contra hoc fecerit, vt fautor haeresis, & er­ [...]s similiter pun [...]atur. ‘We do ordayne that no man, vpon his owne head and authoritie do translate into the English or other tongue, any part of the holy Scripture, nor that any such book, if it should be translated, be read eyther publikely or priuately vnder the payne of the greater excommunication. And he that shal do contrarie to this ordination of ours, let him be punished as a fauourer of error and heresie.’

This ordayned that Archbishop almost 17 three hundred yeares agoe, And yet yf yow remember I haue shewed Cap. 3. Enc. 2. num. 6.before, how the sayd Archbishop in his Synod holden at Ox­ford dyd appoint,Linvvod. lib. 5. de Magi­stris. that there should be a true English trāslation of the whole Byble permit­ted (by approbation of the Bishop) to all such common people as should be thought apt to profyt thereby, which being considered, and that heere only he ordayneth, that no particu­lar man of his owne authorytie should translate the scriptures into English or publish thesame to other mens reading without lycens, I would know of O. E. why this constitution was alleaged by him, [Page] seing it proueth nether the one nor the other of the forsaid poyntes (both which he sayeth are proued thereby) to wyt that reading of Scripture was accompted heresy,The Archb. constitution is against O. E vvho allea­geth it. or punished by brandling, nay both these assertions are refuted by this: the first for that translation & & reading of scripture in the English tongue by lycens of the Bishop was permitted, ergo, it was not heresy, for that noe Bishop can permit heresy: secondly for that the punish­ment of excommunication is neyther death nor burning: ergò for this they were not brandled. Now then look yow in the fore­head of this brandled and masked Minister O.E. who concludeth his former discourse in these woordes: So it appeareth that the challenger our aduersary lyeth notoriously in both these poin [...]es. Pag. 45. Thus he sayeth wherof let the Reader be iudge.

18 And a litle after disdayning that I should say this prudent ordinance about translating and reading of Scripture with difference and choice of men to be the ordinance of the Catholike churche, he commeth into his ac­customed vayn of scurrilytie saying. Yf he meane by the Cathol. Churche the conuenticle of Trent, Pag 45. he is an absurd fellow, to think that skum & synke of priestes and fryars which the [...]e gathered a councel against Christ, to be the Cathol. Churche. Let any man iudge of this vncleane and vncircumci­sed tongue.About the Cath churche And for the thing it self I would aske him yf the Councel of Trent consisting of the chief Bishops and Prelates of Christen­dome [Page 42] represented not the knowen Cathol. Churche at that day what other Catholike Churche can he shew vs to haue byn extāt at that tyme, seing as he saith in his definition of Catholike afterward in his challenge out of V [...]ncentius Lirinensis: VVe are to hold that which alwayes hath byn beleued of all Christians, O. E. chaleng. 1. Pag 2. Vincent. Li­rinen aduers. haeteses ca. 3. for that is trulie and properly Catholike. Which if it be true, let hym shew vs, that in the tyme of the coun­cel of Trent, there was any other Christian faith alwayes beleeued of all christians from Christ to that day but only the Romane, and then we wil say, that albeit for his scurrilytie of speech he be to be accompted of as he de­serueth, yet that in the rest he hath some rea­son: But if he can not do this, then sheweth he himself shamles in both.

And this might be sufficient for somuch 19 as concerneth this point of reading scriptu­res, wherein yow see how vaynly this vn­learned and ydleheaded Minister behaueth himself running in and out, forth and back without rule or order sense or reason. But yet I must follow him a litle further in certaine quarrels picked against me. The first wherof is, for that I do alleage these woords of S. Paule,2. Cor. 3. litera occidit, Spiritus autem viuificat. The letter killeth but the spirit giueth lyfe, therby to proue that it is not sufficient to read only the woords of scripture except they be right­ly also vnderstood, and consequently that all standeth not in reading specially amongst the ignorant who oftentymes receaue more hurt [Page] then good thereby herevpon commeth in the Minister very hotly,Pag. 47. saying: He doth shame [...]ully abuse the woordes of S. Paule to the condemning of reading of Scriptures. But soft Sir, I neither abuse nor vse the woordes of the Apostle to the sense yow falsely say, but to that sense which other holy Fathers before me haue vsed & alleaged them,S. Hier. Ep. ad Nepot. in 3. Reg. c. 1. as namely S. Hierome, and S. Augustine cyted by me in the Ward-woord, and passed ouer craftely by this com­paniō,Aug. de Spi­ritu & littera c. 4 & 5. & primo Re­tract c. 4. as though he had neuer heard of them. And besides that which there I said I wil heere adioyne an other place of his, lib. primo ad Simplician. q. 1. where he saith: ‘Lex tantummodo lecta & non intellecta vel non impleta vti (que) occidit, tunc enim appellatur littera.’ The law of God being read only and not vnderstood nor ful­filled doth kill, for that it is called the letter, by the Apostle.

20 Thus saith he, and where as our Minister addeth Bellarmyne his companion may instruct him that none but the Swink feldians and Originists by the letter that killeth vnderstand Scriptures as this Noddy doth: Examina­tion of the vvoords of S. Paul. littera occidit. 2. Cor. 3. shewing himself therein a playne heretike an [...] enemy to the Scriptures. This I say sheweth who is the Noddy, who is the heretike and who is the enemy to Scriptures, yf lying and cogging do put enemytie betwene the lyar and the Scriptures, which are truthe it self.Bellarm. lib. 1 de verbo Dei. Cap. 3. For Cardinal Bellarmyne doth not ioyn [...] Swinkfeldians and Originists together in de­nying scriptures as this man doth, but cyting only an interpretation of Origen improueth [Page 43] thesame in one sense, though in an other he admitteth it. The Swinkfeldians indeed and Lybertines (Children of the new Gospel of Martine Luther, and consequently our Mi­nisters brethren) did deny the external letter of the Scripture founding themselues vpon this place of S. Paule, litera occidit, which Bel­larmyne denyeth to serue to that purpose. But this is nothing to our sense who deny not nor condemne (as this Noddy slaundreth vs) eyther the external letter of Scriptures themselues or the reading therof with discre­tion, due reuerence and order, but only rashe and presumptuous reading and interpreting the same, according to their owne sense and vnderstanding, different from the meaning and interpretation of the auncient Fathers & Catholike Churche.

But yet let vs heare somewhat more how 21 he goeth foreward in this matter:Pag. 4 [...]. He telleth vs further (saith this Minister) that the vnderstanding of scriptures is a particuler gift of God reserued espe­tialy vnto Christ, and by him bestowed vpon the Churche which he proueth by this place. Luc 24. Act. 8. Tunc ape­ruit eis sensum vt intelligerent scripturas: then he opened to them the sense wherby they might vnder­stand scriptures. And againe by the example of the Eunuche that without Philip the Apostles help could not vnderstand the prophecie of Isay. Thus sayeth O. E. and how doth he answere think yow all these reasons of myne? yow shal heare in few woords all he sayth.Pag. 4 [...]. If Christ be the best In­terp [...]etor (saith he) where should we better vnder­stand [Page] what his interpretations are then in holy Scrip­tures? The mini­sters ridicu­lous circu­ling. Here is one circle heare an other. Is he hath bestowed the gifte of interpreting scrip­tures on the Churche, how should the people be better assured of the excellency of the Churc [...]es interpretation then by seing the same confirmed by scriptures. This is the second circle more foolish then the former. And mark heere (good people) the assurance which these men doe teache yow for your safty in reading scriptures, when yow vnderstand not the let­ter of the Scripture, first (saith he) yow must goe to Christ the best interpreter, and when yow vnderstand not Christs interpretation, yow must returne to the letter of the Scriptu­res to know the excellency of Christs inter­pretation, and yf yow vnderstand neither, then must yow goe to the interpretation of the Churche, and yf yow vnderstād not that, then must yow goe backe againe to the scrip­tures to assure your self (as he saith) of the ex­cellency of the Churches interpretation.Intricat dea­ling of he­reticks about vnderstan­ding of scrip­tures. But in all this going and comming, turning and wynding, I would aske our whirle-headed Minister who shalbe iudge? or where shal the stay be? or how can symple people discerne of these things which he prescribeth? One wil think he hath the letter with him, an [...] other the sense and spirit, a third the inspira­ciō of Christ, a fourth the interpretatiō of the Churche, & then wil all foure fall out, where and what and which is the Churche, and must returne to the Scriptures againe, and to their [Page 44] owne fancies and interpretations about this and all the rest. And this is the graue and sure direction which O. E. deliue­reth vs.

To my other instance and example of the 23 Eunuch (Apostle afterward of Ethiopia (as S. Ireney and other fathers do cal hym) to whom reading and not vnderstanding the Prophet Isay,Iraeneus. Christ by his Angel sent Philip to be his interpretor, this fellow answereth nothing but that it was not Philip the Apost­le, but the Deacon who was sent: But what of this, yf it were so? Doth this answere the argument? The glosse vpon that place of the Acts saith,Nie. de Lyre in cap. [...]. Act. that diuers learned men were of different opinion about that matter, whe­ther it were Philip the Apostle or Philip the Deacon that was sent to the Eunuche. And Tertullian more neare to that tyme then our Minister by a thousand and foure hun­dred yeares,Tertul. lib. de Bapt. c. 1 [...]. and more learned then he by ten thousand and fyue hundred yardes doth call this Philip an Apostle twise within fiue ly­nes. But what if it were Philip the Deacon? what hurteth it my argument? eyther of them is sufficient for our purpose, to proue that this Eunuche being a principal cheef man, and a Proselyt ore Iew by religion, and not vnlear­ned in both their law and language, as ap­peareth by his reading their scriptures, yet had he need of an external interpreter to be sent to him by God. Wherof is inferred, that muche more vnlearned & simple people rea­ding [Page] scriptures trāslated into vulgar tongues and for the most part corrupted by Sectaries to their hands haue need to be moderated and wel directed in this matter; to the end they gayne and not leese therby: wh [...]ch poynt the Warder proueth by euident effects of infynit heresyes rysen by rash and vnreuerent rea­ding of the Scriptures,Luther. in which respect Lu­ther himself against other Sectaries ympug­ning hym by shew of Scriptures calleth it, Li­brum haereticorum, the proper book of hereti­kes, whence all of them by euil interpreta­cion doe frame their heresyes. Wee see also within the space of these fowre score late yeares, since the Byble hath byn layd open to all sortes of people in all vulgar languages, what a Sea of monstrous sects and diuisions haue flowed vpon vs, wherof the Warder al­so giueth diuers particuler examples in Eng­land it self, and those punished also by Prote­stants, as of Ioane Burcher, William Hacket; William Ieffrey and others.

24 Vnto all which experience & declaration, this good fellow answereth breeflie thus. It is not reading of Scriptures which he styleth rash rea­ding vsed by lay people▪ Pag 49. but neglect of scriptures brin­geth forth errour and heresy. So that say what yow wil [...] and proue what yow wil, this fel­low wipeth of all with a bare denial. Yet whether neglect of Scriptures or rash or vn­reuerent reading, which he doth here bring in as opposit may not in some sense be the self same, I leaue to discreet men to ponder, and [Page 45] thereby the wit of this wryter. And where as he saith that heretiks by Tertullian are cal­led Lucifugae Scripturarum, Ibide [...]. the bars of scriptu­res, for that they fly from the true light of scriptures, I would pray the reader by this one place to ponder wel with himself of this the fraudulent cogging companion, for he would haue it seme (and to that end he brin­ [...]eth it in) that Tertullian did assigne it for peculiar propertie of heretikes to fly rea­ [...]ing of scriptures, wherof here we entreat, which is so false as nothing can be more, and [...]at wel knoweth the seared conscience of his deceitful Minister,A notable abusing Ter­tullian. Tertul. lib. de praescrip. ad­uers. haeret. cap. 15. seing that the whole [...]earned discourse of Tertullian, De praescriptio­ [...]us aduersus haereticos, that is of prescriptions [...]prescribing against heretikes is principally [...] exclude them from tryal by scriptures, [...]herof they bragged, and wherevnto they [...]ould seme to runne, as ours do now adayes, [...] this he doth from the 17. Chapter downe­wards: and before he entreth into this demon­ [...]ration he vseth this Preamble, Ipsi de Scriptu­ [...]agunt, de scripturis suadent, scripturas obtendunt, [...]c. & hac sua andacia statim quosdam mouent. He­ [...]tiks do treat of scripture [...] do perswade out scripture, doe pretend scriptures, and with is their audacytie doe moue some peo­ [...]e, &c.

And in the very book alleaged by our Mi­ [...]ter 25 out of Tertullian, De resurrectione caruis, sheweth that heretikes are great scripture [...]n, but to peruert, and not to vnderstand [Page] them aright, and that without scr [...]pture no heresy [...] can be founded,Tertul. lib de carnts resur­rect c. 40. Haereses (saith he) esse non possent, si non & perperam scripturae intelligi pos­sent. There could not be heresyes, y [...] the scr [...]ptures could not be euil vnderstood. And in the very particuler place and controuersy handled by him of the resurrection of the flesh and body against heretikes that denyed thesame vnder pre [...]ence of scripture, he saith to one of them.Ibid. c. 10. Ten [...]s scripturas, utbus caro infus­catur? tene ettam quibus illustratur. Thow dost alleage scriptures wherby the basenes and in­firmytie of our flesh is set forth, harcken a [...]so to those scr [...]ptures, by whi [...]h thesame is ex­alted and g [...]orified. And then pass [...]ng ouer to an other poynt of proof, he alleageth a place out of the Apostle, 1. Thess 5. for resurrection of the flesh saying thus: Age tam quod ad Thessalo­nicenses, vt ipsius solis radio putem scriptum, Ibid c 47. ita clare [...], qualtter acciptant Luci fugae isti scripturarum. Go to then, how wil these scripture-bats (the here­tiks) vnderstand this place of S. Paule to th [...] Thessalonians, though it be so cleare as I may think it to be wrytten with the very beame of the Sunne it self.

26 Here then yow see, that heretikes are no [...] noted or called night-battes by Tertullian fo [...] fl [...]ing the reading of Scriptures, as this fai [...] lad would perswade his Reader, but rathe [...] the quite contrarie, that reading and braggin [...] of Scriptures more then others,Hovv here­tiks [...]re scrip­ture bats. yet are the [...] so blynd in the true light therof (throug [...] their owne pryde and malice) as they fly the [Page 46] true sense and interpretation he [...]d by the Ca­tholike churche, as night-bats do the cleere day light and shyn [...]ng of the Sunne, which Tertu [...]an in the forenamed book of prae­scription and els where doth largely declare: and it is our complaint also against Sectaries of our tyme who swarm [...]ng ouer scriptures like blynd bats in the darcknesse of theyr owne passions and imaginations, and flyeng the light of auncient doctors and Churches interpretations do break their owne heades and necks of entymes vpon scripture walles, in respect wherof thesayd Tertullian in this very book by O.E. alleaged concludeth thus, and therein giueth vs good counsel saying. [...]ecundum praetudicta tot authoritatum scripturas in­ [...]lligi oportebit, Ibid. c. 18. non secundum ingenia haere [...]corum de [...]la incredulita [...]e vementiae. Scriptures must be vnderstood according to the fore established iudgments of so many authorities (as I haue now alleaged) and not according to the wits or wrangling inclinations of heretiks which proceed cōmonly of only incredulitie which [...]s asmuch to say as that the natures of he­retikes being inclyned to incredulytie, & not to beleue what the authoritie of the Catho­like Churche hathe set downe before them, they seek to draw the interpretation of scriptures to their owne phansyes.

Thus wryteth he, and his reason is for that 27 heretiks reading scriptures with curiosytie for feeding their owne humors, and being bound to no rule or prescriptiō of interpretations, [Page] but to take and leaue or like at their pleasures commonly their wits guyded by humaine spirit inclyne to incredulitie, calling in que­stion what others haue held or beleued before them, and shaking of the foundations of all former belief by their new quarrelling: and whether the Sectaries of our tyme haue done this or no by their much reading and tossing of scriptures, let experience teache vs. And this shal suffice for this place.

THE SECOND PART of this Encounter contayning foure absurd groundes of Catholike religion fayned by Sir frauncis: and first whether ignorance be the mother of deuotion: as also about the controuersy of fides explicita, & impli­cita. CAP. VII.

1 WE haue byn occupied hitherto about so many other falshoodes and vntru­thes of these our aduersaries vttered in their preambles as we haue not byn able to come to the principal subiect of this Encoūter, which is a quadruple number of absurd grounds & positions, which the knight affirmeth vs to hold for general grounds and Maximes of our religion: wherof the first and ring leader is, that ignorance is the mother of deuotion, which [Page 47] he vttereth in these woords.VVatch. p. 17 The first for­ged position. In these darck and clowdy dayes (saith he) least the Sunshine of know­lege should disperse the mystes of ignorance, and giue light to the dymme of sight, this position was set downe for their Maxime or rule infallible, that igno­rance is the mother of deuotion, & that the sacred woord of God which was giuen to be a Lanterne to all our feet and a light to our steps was forbidden to the lay sorte (for so they called them) as matter vnfit for them to looke into. To which the warder be­ginneth his answere thus.

‘How manifest a falshood it is that reading 2 of scriptures is forb [...]dden to all lay men is sufficiently shewed by that which goeth be­fore,VVard p. 17. for in any of the three learned tonges, any lay man or woman may read them at their pleasure, and in vulgar translations also suche as haue lycens: and I thinke Sir Frauncis wil not deny that many of the laytie vnder­stand Latin. How then and with what face complayneth he so piteously or rather hypo­critically, that the sacred woord of God which was giuen to be a lanterne to our f [...]ete, &c was forbidden to the lay sort.’

To this interrogatiō of the warder Sir Fraūcis replieth now noe one syllable more then be­fore is sayd.VVhether ignorance be the mother of deuotion. And further where as the war­der chargeth him sorely with malepart igno­rance for scoffing at the woord (laymen) and a [...] the distinction betwene Laytie and Cleargie, and by this occasion sheweth the true mea­ning of those woords, with the auncient be­gynning vse and practize of the primitiue [Page] Churche, out of Origen Epiphanius Hierome and diuers other fathers, doctors & general Coūcels, the patient knight dissembleth all this according to the first shift discouered in the beginning,Sir. F. and O. E. do flie shamfully. and saith nothing at all to it nei­ther doth his Proctor O. E. helpe him out herein with any one woord, though woords be very good cheape with him.

3 After this the warder cometh to the positiō it self, saying: ‘But we deny this Maxime or infallible rule to be ours, and do say that it is your calumniation only, and not our position, and that among vs it is neither Maxime no [...] Minime. And for yow to proue it a Maxime, yow must shew that all Catholykes or the most part do hold it: and to proue it a Minime, at least yow must shew that some one doth hold it: neither of which yow can euer doe, and so yow remayne disgraced.’ Thus said he what answereth Sir F. Thus:VVast. pag. 47. A strange accusation and grieuous slaunder (no doubt) to charge those men with nourishing the people in ignorance whom all the world knoweth to haue vsed strange meanes to bring them to knowlege. For what meant they by the costly setting vp of many faire and wel guylded Images in Churches? was it not that they might be lay mennes bookes, and by reading on them they might attaine knowlege?

4 To this I answere first, that this proof is far of from shewing that it is a Maxime and in­fallible rule among vs, that ignorance is the mother of deuotion, why is not this proued, especially seing S^r. F. is required in honor to do it? Is the run­ning [Page 48] to the controuersy of Images a sufficient discharge for this? Doe not all men see, this kynd of shifting? But let vs say somewhat to his instance of faire guilded Images, as though they made to his purpose. First then I say that those faire Images of Christ and his Saints, against which he enueigheth, if they be ioyned with other instruments of light & instruction as are preaching, teaching and suche other like, vsed among vs, can not be a hinderāce to knowlege as the K^t. would seme to affirme, but rather a furtherance; for that otherwise, why hath Ihon Foxe so many pictures and payn­tings in his book, but to teache men therby the contents of his writings. But consider reader here (as before I haue sayd) the sub­stance of heretical answering, which runneth vp and downe & neuer commeth to the pur­pose. Hath not the warder offred our watch­man fayre and frendly, that whereas he hath affirmed, written & published in print, that it is a Maxime among vs & rule infallible, that ignorance is the mother of deuotion, we are content that he proue it only a Minime? And where as for proof of the former he was bound to shew that all Catholike wryters or the most part of them auouched it, we are content to accept the woord or testimony of any one Cath. author, learned or vnlearned that euer wrote or printed such a position?

And is not S^r. F. then with his whole pres­byterie 5 of ministers maruelously shamed yf they bring not forthe some one suche wryter?Impertinent dealing of our aduersa­ries. [Page] Can a more easie or indulgent satisfaction be required of so rigorous a charge? wel what then do they? After running hither & thither and telling vs a tale how P [...]us Quintus went on foot for edifying the people (as much ap­perteyning to this matter as the steeple of Cā ­terbury to the Church-yard of Paules) they come out at length with this proofe. I say th [...] Doctor Fulke doth iustly charge your Rhemists with this old impudent proposition, VVast. pag. 6 [...]. that ignorance of the scrip­tures is the mother of deuotion: for what meant els their so strickt forbidding to Laymen the reading of scriptures in the vulgar tonge? Loe here a witnes & a reason againe repeated of this Maximè, To the witnes the answere is quickly made: Aske my fellow whether I be a theef. The reason being ridiculous and refuted before bringeth a new forged assertion with yt, that laymen are by name stricktly forbidden the reading of scriptures (which is as sham­les as the former yf he meane it generally of all lay men as the woords doe stand) and consequentlie noe lesse impossible for Sir Frauncis to shew out of any Cath.A nevv false position brought foor [...]h by the knight. Author liuing or dead, then the former position of Ignorance to be the mother or daughter of deuotion. And besydes it is apparantly ridi­culous to very chyldren, who see how many laymen are learned and reade scriptures daylie, and some laymen haue wrytten also commentaries vpon the scriptures: So as to be a layman bringeth noe impediment in it self to reade Scriptures.

[Page 49]Wherfore after this he runneth to an im­pertinent 6 excursion by iesting at our distinc­tion of Fides implicita & explicita. Pag. 49. The contro­uersy about fides implicita & explicita. Hence (saith he) hath growen your deuise of fides implicita a faith wrapped & foulded vnder the obedience of the Church, namely that it is sufficient, though they know not di­stinctly what they oug [...]t to beleue, but obediently submit their vnderstauding to the Churche, beleuing as the Churche beleueth, though what the Churche beleueth they know not. This Carbonaria [...]ides or Colliars faith is highlie commended by Card. Hosius, &c.

Thus wryteth the K^t. and as for the later part of this assertion cōcerning Card. Hosius we shal handle yt a litle after when we come to coople with the Minister O. E. shewing how egregriously he abuseth both Card. Hosius & his reader in this point. But for the former about the distinction it self of fides explicita and implicita, we must handle a litle here with our K^t. aduertising first the reader, that by fides ex­plicita we meane a cleare, distinct and parti­cular faith or belief of any article, point or parcel of Christian Religion: and by fides im­plicita we meane a more darck, secret or hiddē faith, implied as it were or wrapped (to vse S^r. F. woord) in the belief of an other more ge­neral poynt, which includeth this: As for example, in the article of Christs incarnation we do beleue clerely and distinctly, not only that the sonne of God was made flesh for vs, but further also in particuler that in two di­stinct natures there was but one person, and yet not one wil only, but two distinst wils, & [Page] the like: and this is fides explicita.

7 But some other men that are not bownd to know [...] these and other particularities be: on­g [...]ng to Christ [...] an faith in these and other mi­steries may beleue the same things per fidem im­plicitum, by an impl [...]ed faith: to wit, by be [...]eu [...]ng in general, that the Sonne of God was ma [...]e flesh for our redemption: and moreouer be­leuing whatsoeuer other points Gods holie Churche teacheth deduceth or beleueth in this behalf, albeit they do not clerelie know them or vnderstand them in perticuler.

And this is so necessarie a point of doctrine for the saluatiō of the common sort of people, as yf we take it away (as Sectaries doe who vnderstand it not) it must needs follow, that thowsands yea millions of Christians must perish for lack of fayth,The necessy­tie of [...]ides implicita for saluation of the common sort of Chri­stians. seing the whole first Councel of Nice set downe this dreadful foundation, as appeareth in the creed of S. Athanasius: that it is necessarie for him that [...]il be saued to hold the whole Cath. faith, which yf any man doe not, he must perish eternally, wherof must needs be inferred, that for so muche as the far greater parte of Christians do not know or vnderstand the forsaid pointes of faith and manie more belonging to many misteries of Christian Religion and consequently can not beleue them but only by fides implicita as hath byn shewed, it followeth (I say) that if we take away the truth and vse of fides implicita which euer hitherto the Cath. Churche hath taught yow must needs teache desperation and dam­nation [Page 50] to the vnlearned sort, that eyther for lack of tyme, capacitie, learning and other such lets, can not come to know and beleue all particulars belonging to a Christian set downe in bookes or handled by learned men, but content only with the cleere and distinct beleef of such articles as are most needful and important, do beleue the rest fide implicita, that is, by the implied faith of the Churche.

Wherfore how so euer this distinction of 8 fides explicita and implicita may trouble the vn­learned Sectaries of our tyme, and giue them occasion to iest at that they vnderstand not, as S^r. F. doth here, yet the thing it self is most eui­dently true and necessary and the same di­stinction in other woords is set downe by S. Augustine, where he speaketh of the differens of the faith of holie men vnder the old testa­ment, he not being able otherwise to defend the position of S. Paule and other Apostles, af­firming the old good Iewes to haue beleued also in Christ, & to haue had the self same faith that we haue in substance, but only by this di­stinction, though set downe in other woordes. For thus he writeth:Aug. lib. [...]5. Cont. Faust. cap. 14. Tunc occulta erat fides, nam cadem credebant, eadémque sperabant omnes iust [...] & Sancti temporum ill [...]rum, &c. Then (vnder the old testament) the faith of Saints (wherby they beleued Christ to come and all his mysteries) was hiddē or couered, for that all iust & holie men of those tymes beleued the self same things that we do now, and did hope for the same, but now our faith is cleere & reuealed.

[Page] 9 Thus saith S. Augustine: making the same difference in effect as yow see, betwene t [...]e faith of vs (Christians) and of those vnder the old testament, as we do betwene learned and vnlearned men at this day, the one being cleere, distinct & particular, the other obscure, confuse and more general, for so much as those points of Christs incarnation, diuynitie, person, natures, wils, sacraments, passion, re­surrection and the like, which we beleue now distinctly and cleerly; and in particuler, they beleued obscurely and more confusedly as vnder a vaile,2. Cor. 3. as the Apostle termeth it, and as it were in grosse and general: in that they beleued whatsoeuer the Prophets and Pa­triarches had fortold or beleued of Christ to come, and his doctrine and mysteries, as the more vnlearned sort of Christians do now, in beleuing whatsoeuer the Churche holdeth, though in particular they knew not euery point which she holdeth but only the most notorious and needful, as those general heades commonly called the Articles of the Creed, & some other deduced therof, and appointed to be taught and explaned to euery Christian more in particular, though not all, but so ma­ny as are necessarie to be knowen for their saluation. And this simplicitie of belief in the common sort which our scoffing knight cal­leth the Colliars faith (himself being more ignorant in diuers pointes of true faith then many Colliars or Coblers in the Catholike Churche) the foresayd holie father and lear­ned [Page 51] doctor S. Augustine doth so highlie esteme as he dareth auouche against as stowt an heretike as our K^•. or his Ministers, this sen­tence:Aug. 1. cōt [...]a Ep. Fundam. Turbam, non intelligendi viuacitas sed credend [...] simplicitas tutissimam facit. The vulgar sort of Christians are made most sure of their salua­tiō by the viuacity of their vnderstanding, but by the simplicity of beleeuing, &c.

Wel then (good readers) all this that hi­therto 10 hath byn said hath byn to lay before yow the fond cauillations of wrangling Sec­taries, about fides explicita and implicita, they vnderstanding nether the nature, vtility, or necessity therof. For the truth is, that Cath. religion doth hould them both, and iudgeth both most necessary in all sorts of men, though they are more in some then in others.The necessi­ty of fides ex­plicita in all men. For as for fides explicita all Catholyke wryters do agree that all sorts of Christians whatsoeuer must haue it in the principle articles of Christian beleef vnder paine of eternal damnation, that is to say, that all Christians learned and vnlearned of what sort so euer must be taught to beleeue expressely, cleerly, and distinctly, the principal misteries of Christian religion, as for example the misteries of the Blessed trinity, and incarnation, &c. This doctrine is so ordi­nary and vniuersal among Catholiks,D. Thom. 2. 2. q 2. art. 6.7.8. &c. as S. Thomas hath diuers whole articles therof and all other schoole diuines do agree about that matter, though our K^t. would gladly haue men to think that we do not teach this fides explicita as necessarie to any almost of the simple sort.

[Page] 11 Secondly our Churche teacheth, that albeit this cleere and distinct faith be necessary to all Christians in certayne articles, yet not to all a like,More things necessary to be beleeued by some than others. but that the learneder sort are bound to know & beleeue by this faith more thinges thē the simple especially those that must teach others, as Curats, Pastors, Preachers, and the like, and more then all the rest, Bishoppes and Prelates, which S. Thomas declareth in these words:Secūda, 2. q. 2. art. 7. in corp. artic. post tempus gratiae reuelatae, &c. ‘After the comming of Christ, as wel teachers as the people are boūd to haue fidem explicitam, cleere and expresse beleef of the misteries of Chri­stian faith especially touching those points that are solemnized in the Churche, and are publikely proposed vnto them, as are the ar­ticles of the incarnation before treated: But as for more higher considerations some are bound to beleue more and some lesse accor­ding as the state and office of each one requi­reth, &c.’

12 And againe yet further: plura tenentur expli­citè credere maiores, Ibid. art. 6. ad primum. qui habent officium alios instruēdi, quam alij: ‘Those that be in Ecclesiastical au­thority, or haue obligation to teach others, are bound also to beleeue more things expressely and distinctly then others.’ Thus teacheth our Churche, and the discreet reader wil easily iudge, with how great reason, piety & neces­sity, for the saluation of those that are com­mitted to her charge.

13 And to the end yow may see with how litle iudgment the sectaries of our tyme, and na­mely [Page 52] our Knight (taking thesame out of Iohn Caluyn) do cauil at our doctrine herin;Caluin Insti­tut. l. 3. c. 2. [...]. 2. I shal make yow see, and him also to confesse, yf he be not shamelesse, that himself & his men do vse & put in practise the very same distinction of fides explicita and implicita, & are forced ther­ [...]nto, yf in truth they wil confesse to haue any [...]aith at all.

For I would aske him first, whether euery 14 [...]rotestant do not professe to beleue all that Christ and his Apostles and the Prophets be­ [...]ore them haue taught,The necessi­tie of fides implicita euē in heretiks. or at leastwayes, so [...]uch as they haue written and set downe in [...]riptures? And then would I aske againe how [...]any English protestants do know distinctly [...] this day, all that is in the scriptures, touching [...]hristian fayth? And if to the first there be no [...]oubt, but that he wil answere affirmatiuely, [...] that to the second he must needs answere [...]gatiuely; than it followeth, that those pro­ [...]stants who beleeue all things that are in [...]riptures, and yet do not know expressely or [...]tinctly what they are; in particular thease I [...] do beleeue those points which they know [...], fide implicita, that is to say, by an implied [...]: in that they beleeue in general, what­euer is contayned in the scriptures.

Another like demaund may be to the sim­ [...]r 15 sort of Protestants,Another de­maund to Sir Francis. and perhaps to Sir F. [...]self though he take not himself for such, [...]ich is whether he beleeue to be false, all [...] errors and blasphemes which the Iewes, [...]cks, Mores, or auncient heretiks haue held [Page] against Christ, and the Catholike faith, for the space of these fiftene hundred yeares to­geather; wherto (no doubt) but he wil an­swere yea. And yet if I should aske him againe whether he vnderstand or know distinctly & clerely all thesaid particular errors, and blas­phemies which these sects haue set down: in their books against Christ, and his faith? he would (I think) euen for modestyes sake an­swere no, or at least wise he would be easily forced thervnto, yf he were wel posed: wher­of it ensueth, that this faith wherby he be­leeueth all those things to be false must need [...] be fides implicita an implied faith which heere he so much scorneth and impugneth; & con­sequently he both scorneth and impugneth himself. And so much of this.

16 After this excursion he vseth an other, al­leaging vs an impertinent tale out of Ioh [...] Foxe,An imperti­nent iest in steed of ans­vvere. how ignorance was not only the mo [...]ther, but a fruytful daughter also of deuotion by mouing English Princes to buyld monaste [...]ryes, as though ignorance had byn the cheife motyue to their woorks of charitie. And the [...] he alleageth half a tale and half a ly toge [...]ther out of D. Iohn Reynolds,D. Ram. de ecclesia Rom. lib. 2. cap. 5. that Francisc [...] Samson general of the Friars Franciscans should [...] that Fryars had first Conscientia, then leesing [...] first syllable, they remayned only with Scientia, [...] then leesing againe an other first syllable there rema [...]ned only entia: a iest fit for Iohn Reynol [...] wit, with which kynd of deuises he answ [...]reth Card. Bellarmynes serious wryting, [...] [Page 53] rather the litle peece therof, which hath held hym occupied so many yeares with shame enough. But why doe not D. Iohn or Sir. F. tel vs the original, or cyte some author where we may read this goodly mery tale, which yet euery man seeth how litle it is to the pur­pose we haue in hand: and yet notwithstan­ding as though he had said something to the purpose, yea proued clerly the former propo­ [...]ition, that we hold ignorance to be the mother [...]f deuotion he adioyneth immediatly these woordes:

To ad further proof in a case so manifest were 17 [...] light a Candle at noone day, Pag. 51. yet this wil I ad ex [...]bundanti: yf publike prayer in the Cathol. Churche [...] congregation of the faithful be a cheef & a prin­ [...]pal part of deuotion? S. F. lighted candle to [...] vs see his ovvne igno­rance. made yow not ignorance the [...]ther of deuotion, when as yow would not allow [...]heir publike prayers in a tonge that the people vn­ [...]stood? Surely Sir we are muche beholding [...] yow for adding this aboundant proof, and [...]or lighting vs a candle to see and discouer our ignorance therby, who vnderstanding or what deuotion is, though the Warder at [...]rge layd yow downe her defynition with [...] causes and effects therof both out of S. [...]ugustine,VVhat deuo­tion is A [...]g. [...]. de Spirit. & li▪ cap 50. D. Tho. 2. q. 82. art. 20. S. Thomas and others shewing [...]rgelie, that deuotion is a religious vertue de­ [...]ending of the inward affection and will of [...]an, deuoted to Gods seruice, which thing [...] knight and his Ministers either vnderstā ­ [...]ng not or caring not for it, doe come now [...]aine to affirme & put in print that publike [Page] prayer in the Churche is the chief and prin­cipal part of deuotion. Which yf it were true, then singers, readers organists and other that performe the said publike seruice should be euer most deuout, wherof commonly not­withstanding the contrary is found by expe­rience. And it is a most absurd thing in the knight and his Ministers to defyne an internal vertue by an external act, albeit thesaid act of prayer may sometymes be an effect of de­uotion in good men, though not alwayes or of necessitie, for that a man may be inwardly deuout, and yet not pray externallie: and againe he may say many external prayers with the lyppes without true internal deuo­tion of the hart, as beggars are wont to doe for an almes, and ministers for their fee. And thus I am forced to leese tyme in teaching this old knight very ordinarie groundes and principles not only of true diuinitie, but also of very moral philosophy.

18 But let vs goe foreward, and see whether he haue any more proofes for his false former assertion of ignorance to be the mother of deuotion, for that these hitherto are found to be none at all, but shiftes and follies. Our contriman (saith he) the Popes Champion D. Stapleton confidently af­firmeth, D. Stapl. a­gainst Ievvel, art. 3. p. 75. that denotion is not furthered but hindered by a tonge that is vnderstood. Loe here a goodlie proof, and wel to the purpose. But I answere yow that he affirmeth it not so confidentlie (Sir) as yow guilfully relate him) corrupting both his woords and his meaning: For he saith [Page 54] not absolutely as yow would make him,Hovv a kno­vven tong may let in­vvard deuo­tion more then an vn­knovven. that the act & exercise of a mannes deuotion is all wayes hindered by a knowen tonge, but that sometymes in some case it may be; as for example, if a deuout man vnderstanding not Latyn would exercise his priuat deuotion & contemplation a part in S. Paules Churche at London when your Ministers are chaunting their English seruice: cleere it is that the lesse he should vnderstand the woords of the sin­gers, the lesse distraction he should haue from his inward deuotion and recollection of mynde, so as in this case, a knowē toug would hinder deuotion more then an vnknowen, which is the case wherof Doct. Stapleton and other Catholykes doe speak, and in this sense it is most true and euident to all that vnder­stand the nature of deuotion, which Sir F^r. and his Ministers seeme not to doe, eyther in the nature of her definition, or in tendernes of affection and inward feeling, as the Warder telleth him.

Wel then we haue heard his proofes hi­therto 19 for the position before set downe, no one of them prouing any thing at all, or being to the purpose. Now let vs heare his last, and most substantial proof. In a woord (saith he) D. Cole deane of Paule's in the disputation at VVestminster did a [...]ow euen in the honorable assembly of the Councel and Nobles, and frequent concourse of the Commons with great vehemencie this proposition in these woords. I say, ignorance is the mother of deuotion. Lo, heer what a goodly birth is brought forth after [Page] so long traueling, no book, no wryting, no one letter can be alleaged to proue this Ma­ximè, but only the saying of one in vehemency of disputation, and this also without any cer­tayne witnesses besides the aduersary himself. Yf Doct. Cole should haue vttred any suche woord in that vehemencie which heer is si­gnified,A Cauil [...]. ou [...] D. Cole. were this sufficient to make it a Ma­ximè and infallible rule of belief among all Catholykes? Or can this deliuer S^r. F. from rashnes and leuity to haue written and printed, that we all hold it so? Doctor Cole might say perhaps, or any other, that the leardnest men are not alwayes the most deuout, and so doth the Warder also, setting downe the reason therof out of S. Thomas at large, for that de­uotion depending more of the affections of our mynde then of our knowlege and vnder­stāding, is fownd more aboundant oftentymes in the simplez sorte. And if S^r. F. vnderstood the nature of vertues and were not obstinat in respect of mayntayning his owne heretical credit, he would see and acknowlege so much also, and recal his former mad calumniation, that we hold Ignorance for mother of deuotion:Lib de [...]. but as Tertullian saith: It is easier for Sectaries to a [...] ten new errors then to recal one. For which cause I wil vrge this matter no further against him.

THE MINISTER O. E. is called vp, to help out his K. in defence of this first forged position and how he perfor­meth the same. CAP. VIII.

ANd yet before we leaue of this whole 1 treatie we haue thought it best to cal vp the stage once againe O.E. the knights proctor and souldiour of succour, to heare what he hath to say, for it is likely that comming after the K^t. he wil ad somewhat to the others in­uention, and bring some new knack or other to help out his graueled K^t. and to intertaine the reader withall, wherfore it shal not be amisse to giue him the hearing: thus then beginneth this new Mowntebank his tale: I say that it is most true that S^r. F. doth obiect viz, Pag. 42. that Papists hold Ignorance to be the mother of deuotion. Loehere a new Pithagoras that wil be beleued at his woord, I say (quoth he) And what are yow sir I pray yow, that we must beleue yow after the K^t. and more then him, who hauing said it, oftentymes before, hath not hitherto byn able to proue it? Let vs heare then how yow wil play your parte, who came in so freshlie and auouche so stoutlie: Let vs heare your proofes. Yt followeth ymediatlie. Doctor Cole (saith he) in a certaine disputation at vvest-minster did openly affirme it. This is no more then was sayd before and not proued, & [Page] therfore foolishly brought in now againe by the supplier. But heare hym out further for he hath yet more to say: Hosius (saith he) affir­meth, Ibidem. An issue ioy­ned vpon the vvoords ascribed to Ho­sius. that ignorance is not only worthie pardon but reward also. And is it so Sir & wil yow stand to it? wel then let vs ioyne vpon this yssue, & see who shalbe cast, & let the reader first note that the false Minister setteth downe these woords ascribed to Hosius in a different let­ter, to make them more markable, as yf they were Hosius his owne woords indeed. And secondly let hym consyder, that whose woords so euer they be, yet do they not proue the former proposition that Ignorance is the mother of deuotion, but only that some kynd of ignorance or lack of some knowlege may not onely be pardonable but meritorious also, which is a different thing from auouching Ignorance to be the mother of deuotion.

2 But let vs examyne the point, whose woords these are, & therby discouer a noto­rious trick of a coosening companion in this Minister, who reading these woords in Ho­sius, & seing him to alleage them out of S. Hi­lary a most auncient and authentical author, would not cyte them as the woords of S. Hil­lary, least they should haue more credit with the reader then himself, that sought to discre­dit them, but thought best rather to forge and father them vpon Card. Hosius, albeit he told hym expresly that they were the woor­des of S. Hillary, and so cyted them with the place quoted in the margent, for that Hosius [Page 56] hauing set downe many other authorities of auncient fathers, to proue what a great and singular benefyt we receaue by the force of that article of our Creed,A coosening trick. Credo sanctam Eccle­siam Catholicam, I beleue the holie Catholike Churche, and all that she holdeth & teacheth, he sheweth that among other commodityes which we receaue from thence, one is, that simple men vnderstanding only the principle and necessarie points of their faith, and pro­fessing with S. Paul,1. Cor. 2. that they beleeue Christ Ie­sus crucified (and therein all that belongeth therevnto) for other matters and mysteries of higher capacitie, it is not absolutely necessarie for euery particular man and womā to know and beleeue them fide explicita, Supra cap. 7. Num. 6. that is, by di­stinct and cleere belief, as before hath byn shewed, but that by a more general and ym­plied faith, wherby we professe to beleue his holie catholike Churche, and all that shee tea­cheth and beleeueth, we include also these other pointes necessarie to our saluation. To which purpose Hosius hauing alleaged the saying of S. Clemens Alexandrinus & other fathers more auncient then S. Hillary he ad­deth these woordes:Hosius, lib. de fide & Symbolo c. 14. Et eos secutus Hilarius, habet (inquit) non tam veniam quam praemium ignorare quod credas, quia maximum fidei stipendium est, spera­requae nescias. Hillar. lib. 8. de Trin. ine­tio. S. Hillary following the fore­said fathers saith, that to be ignorant of that thow beleuest is a matter woorthie not so much of pardō as reward, for that the greatest reward of faith is to hope for that which [Page] thow knowest not: These are the woordes of that great and auncient Catholike doctor S. Hilary, whose name our Minister durst not cyte, but of purpose omitteth thesame and affirmeth most falsely that they are Hosius his woords. And this is one cosenage, let vs exa­myne an other.

3 And in an other place (saith he) Hosius affirmeth that, Tvvo noto­torious Co­senages of O.E. nihil scire ijs, Omnia scire, to know nothing is to know all thinges: and that it is sufficient for a man to beleue that which the Cathol. Churche bele­ueth, Pag. 42. albeit he be not able to shew what it beleueth. Here I say there is an other false deceitful shift, no lesse fraudulent and shameles then the former: for that these woords are not the woords of Hosius no more then the former,Hos. Ibid. but are only cited by hym, by name, and ex­presly out of [...]ertullian de praescript. Where af­ter a long and learned discourse about the rule of faith instituted by Christ and his A­postles and left to the Churche to be deliue­red vnto vs and to be conserued from tyme to tyme, Tertullian saith, that all good Catholike men ought to be content and acquiet their myndes with this rule & summe of faith left vnto vs, and not to be ouer curious in examy­ning, discussing or seeking further knowlege then is delyuered to them in this rule by their Catholike mother the Churche. Haec regula (saith he) à Christo instituta nullas habet apud no [...] quaestiones, nisi quas haereses inferunt, Tertul. de praescript. cap. 14. & quae hareticos faciunt. This rule of faith instituted by Christ and deliuered to his Churche hath no doubt [Page 57] or questiō among vs Catholykes but such as either heresyes do bring in, or do make here­tikes: And then after a sharp reprehension against curious men,Tertullians reprehension of curious heretikes that brag of skil. and suche as vnder pre­tence of seeking knowlege are alwayes dispu­ting in matters of faith, he concludeth thus. Nouissimè ignorare melius est, Tertul. Ibid. ne quod non debeas, noris, quia quod debeas nosti, &c. Finally it is better to be ignorant in many things least yow should know that yow ought not to know, seing yow know already (by the rule of faith recei­ued) so muche as yow should know. And then further.Ibid. Cedat curiositas fidei, cedat gloria sa­luti, certe aut non obstrepant aut quiescant aduersus regulam, nihil vltra scire, omnia scire est, &c. Let curiositie of searching yeild vnto faith and be­leuing: let the vayne glorie of disputing yeild vnto the studie of our saluation, and at least­wise either let them not brabble at all, or let them be sylent against this rule of faith rece­ued, for to know nothing besydes this, is to know all thinges.

Now let the sober reader iudge what ho­nestie,4 wit or shame this Minister may haue in him,Illations against O.▪ E. that citeth these places owt of Hosius, to proue his purpose that we hold Ignorance to be the mother of deuotion: for first they are not the sentences of Hosius as now we haue shewed, but of S. Hillary and Tertullian: and secondly they doe make nothing to proue, that we hold ignorance to be the mother of deuotion, but rather that these fathers do hold it, if any suche things be in their sentences or tending that [Page] way, which is muche against our Minister if yow mark it. But thirdly I say that all this is nothing to his purpose, but altogether to ours, for that these sayings of the fathers and many other that might be alleaged to thesame effect doe tend principally to reproue the curious searching disputing & wrangling of heretikes that brag of singular knowlege and do obiect ignorance and simplicity to Catholikes, which ignorance notwithstanding and simplicitie with promptnes of obeying and beleuing what is left vnto them by the Churche their mother, is preferred by the foresaid fathers before all the curiositie & knowlege vawnted of by heretikes, [...]. Cor. 8. which is truly called. Scientia inflans puffing science, by the Apostle.

5 And thus now as yow see hath the K^t. with his Minister struggled hard hitherto for deli­uering himself frō the forged position fayned against vs,The Conclu­sion of this chapter. that we hold Ignora [...]ce for the mother of deuotion; albeit to the very force and sub­stance of the Warders replie he hath answered scarse any one point at all to the purpose. For the Warder meaning to haue the truthe tried indeed substantially and reallie whither igno­rance or sciēce were holden by Catholykes to be needful to deuotion, he took a sownd way & went roundly to the matter, setting downe the true definition of deuotion out of Ca­tholyke Doctors, & namely out of S. Thomas in name of all the rest: which definition being the true touchstone of the nature of each thing, seing it excludeth ignorance expresly, [Page 58] and requireth knowlege, doth cōuince Sir F. his fiction of forgery, and deliuereth all Ca­tholykes from that fond imputation.

Moreouer the Warder againe shewed at 6 large out of the said Author (S. Thomas) that albeit knowlege and contemplation of Gods benefits vnto vs be the true mother of deuotiō indeed, yet may it fal out oftentymes, that the most learned be not the most dedout; the cause wherof is, for that deuotion dependeth more of the affection then of the vnderstan­ding, and then he concludeth in these woords: ‘Thus yow see (S^•. F.) that we hold not igno­rance for the mother nor daughter nor kins­woman, of deuotion but rather to the cōtrary we hold that deuotion is fownded and pro­ceedeth of knowlege, wherof Catholyks haue byn euer and in all ages more studious and greater enemies to ignorance then Protestants can with any reason presume to haue byn, for the litle tyme they haue byn in the world.’

And by this meanes the said Warder taketh an occasion to make a third discourse,Principal points of the VVarders discourse vn­touched by the knight & Minister. and to shew by many profes and examples that Ca­tholyks haue byn euer more greater furthe­rers of all kynd of learning, sciēce and know­lege belonging to piety, then Protestants, and namely of that wherof euery Sectarie of our tyme dothe brag, to wit, of holy scriptures, which is euident, by conseruing the same vn­corrupt so many ages, wherby Sectaries of our tyme are come to haue thē, which other­wise they should not, and they are forced to [Page] take them vpon our credit. And more then this, the Bybles set forth in our tymes in He­brew, Greek Chaldy, Syriak and other learned tonges was done by our men, infinit com­mentaries also published vpon them, Vniuer­sities and Lectures erected by them for their study, Schoole degrees and preferments ap­pointed for those that profit most in that study all which Catholyks would neuer haue done, if they had byn enemies of knowlege and spe­cially of Scriptures.

7 And as for Christian knowlege and perpe­tual remembrāce of the misteries of our Saui­our especially in the lay people that can not read, nor vnderstand the Scriptures, no man can in reason denie but that Catholyks haue & do vse many meanes more then Protestants doe,More mea­nes to Chri­stian knovv­leg in vse amongst Ca­tholyks then amongst Pro­testants. as the frequent vse of festiual and holie dayes, wherein the Acts of Christ and his Saincts are recownted, repeated and im­printed to the peoples myndes.

The vse of Images, representations and many exterial ceremonies belonging to the same end: all which do contayne, renew and keep in memory the misteries of Chri­stian faith amongst vnlearned people (which can not read or study bookes) more then any thing els, especially the Cath. exposi­tions of their Pastors and teachers being adioyned therevnto, as before hath byn shewed to be ordeyned by our Churche: So as if all these things do tend to knowlege, yea a more certayn, sure and holsome know­lege [Page 59] (conteyning the sense and true meaning of their mother the vniuersal Cath. Churche) then euery priuate man can pyke out of scriptures by his owne study or reading (though euery man and woman could read as they can not) or then they can take by the interpretation of any particuler Minister following lykewise his owne head, or of any particuler countrey or Prouince follo­wing their owne deuise, different from the whole body of Christendome: This I say being so, and so many wayes to knowlege vsed by vs, let euery indifferent man iudge, who may best brag of knowlege, or more obiect ignorance to others, notwithstanding the K^t. and Ministers babble to the contrarie. And with this we end our speeche of this first forged position obiected vnto vs.

OF THE SECOND forged principle, that laymen must not med­le in matters of religion; wherein is hand­led againe the matter of reading scriptures in English, and why the Catholyke Churche doth forbid some bookes & purge others. CAP. IX.

THE second ground or position attribu­ted 1 by Sir F. to Catholykes is set downe by him thus.VVatch­vvoord. Pag. 20. VVhen they had (saith he) thus set­led [Page] this blynd course to keep the people from know­lege, &c. Then they offer an other position, that it was not for Laymen to medle with matters of religion, The second fayued posi­tion. for that belōged onely and wholy as a priuilege to Priestes, thereby making them secure and carelesse of God and all godlynes. This is the position; wherevnto the Warder answereth in these woords: ‘In setting downe of this forged position by the knight there is some subteltie ioyned with im­pudency.VVachvvord pag. 20. For first in the former parte, where he saith we hold, that it is not for laymen to medle with religion, he subtelly leaueth doubtful this woord (medle) eyther to signifie that laymen must not determyne or defyne matters of re­ligion, or els not to medle or care for them at all. In the former sense we graunt, that in Synods and councels where controuersies of faith are to be treated Bishops and cleargie men haue only authoritie to defyne and de­termyne. For that S. Paul saith,Act. 20. that they are appointed by the holie Ghost to gouerne the Churche, though before they do come to determyne, they do help themselues also in the searche of truth by the labors & learning of laymen, and take their iudgment, when they may giue light, as in all Councels is seene. But in the second sense, it is most impudent, that he in­ferreth, that hereby we would make laymen secure and carelesse of God and all godlines.’

2 This is the charge. How doth Sir F. defend himself now? stoutly no doubt, for he saith, it may be iustified in eyther sense. Wel then let vs examine it a litle in the second sense (for [Page 60] in the first we striue not muche) how & with what face cā the K^•. auerre againe that laymen are so barred by vs from medling in matters of religion, as therby, we make them secure and care­lesse of God and all godlines? what proofes doth he bring now (think yow) for answering so notorious a charge? Yow shal heare his owne woords.Pag. 52. In the later sense (saith he) I need not labor any more for proof, then that before is set downe, tou­ching your breeding of Gods children in blyndnes and ignorance, and with-holding the key of knowlege from them. Very fond reasoning of the K [...]. Doe yow see what he bringeth? If the K^t. had talked of breeding yong geese, he could speak no more fondly then here he doth. And what I pray yow is his key of know­lege with-holden from the lay sorte? forsooth the reading of the English Byble from such as understand yt not. And how many appren­tices and good wiues of London with others of other places haue opened so many dores of later yeares to disorders with this key, as neither their husbands nor Maisters nor Ma­gistrate could or cā wel remedy? let puritanes brownists louing-families and other like be witnesses. And yet as though all stood in this point of reading English Bybles, he asketh vs very earnestly in the next woordes following.Pag. 52. And how wil yow haue them (lay people) medle with cr [...]are for that they know not? And then againe. How doe yow permit laymen thus to medle with mat­ters of Religion, when as yow take from them the vse of scriptures? Did yow euer heare such demands? or did euer man deale with suche aduersaries? [Page] is there no care of piety, God or godlines (for this is our question) but in suche only as read scriptures in English? What wil yow say to all those Protestants among yow who can not read nor haue tyme to heare them red, wil yow say there is no godlines or care of God in them? if yow do, I say, and yow can not deny it, that they are the greatest part of your English protestant people.

3 But from this he leapeth to two places of scriptures, the first out of the Acts of the Apostles of the men of Berraea, who are much commended (saith he) for searching the Scriptures, whether things were so as the Apostles had deliuered. The second out of S. Iohns Epistle saying, Dearly beloued beleue not euery spirit, 1 Ioan. 4. Examination of tvvo pla­ces of Scrip­ture for vul­gar reading therof. but t [...]ie spirits whether they be of God or not. Out of both which two places he would haue vs take it for proued, that all kynd of lay people, men and women, learned and vnlearned must searche scriptures dayly in the vulgar tonges, to exa­mine and iudge whither their Pastors and teachers say truly or noe? And thereby also trie spirits: and that without this, there is no care of God or godlines in the lay sorte: euery man, woman and damozel must haue their key of knowlege to open scriptures and trie spirits.

4 But first what a common wealth this would make if it were wel executed all men can see: secondly the places of scriptures are as fitly alleaged as these men are wont to doe, as yow shal see by examination. For to the [Page 61] first, of the men of Berraea (which euery where is alleaged and vrged by Protestants most im­pertinently to this effect) I would aske our K^t. how he can proue their case to be lyke ours? to wit, first that they were vnlearned and vul­gar Iewes that searched those scriptures in Berraea, to see whether the places of the Pro­phets alleaged by Paul and Silas about Christ were so or no and secondly that those scrip­tures which they searched were in the vulgar Syriak tonge and not in the Hebrew, which the common people for the most part vn­derstood not, and thirdly that this searching was a general promiscuous reading of all scrip­tures translated into vulgar languages for all sortes [...]f people to read and examine therby their Priests & Pastors doctrine and to iudge therof, which three points the K^t. and his Mi­nister wil neuer be able to proue, & so indeed do proue nothing in alleaging this place most impertinent to their purpose. For as for the case of the men of Berraea, it was a very parti­cular and different yea extraordinary case, for that S. Paul and Silas were not the ordinary teachers & Pastors of those Iewes of Berraea, but taught rather a new and strange doctrine different in many substantial points (as ap­pered) frō the auncient Religion of the Iewes and yet they alleaged the sayings and testimo­nies of the old Prophets and Patriarches for the same:Hovv the Ievves of Berraea did search the Scriptures. so as the learned sort of Iewes of Berraea had great reason to searche diligently [...]hose places of scriptures to see whether they [Page] were so as the Apostles alleaged and inter­preted or no; and for that the controuersy was not so muche about the woords as the sense and interpretation, it is euident that they were of their learned men that took this searche in hand & not vulgar people, wherof our controuersy is, and so muche do the pre­cedent woords of the text cleerly shew: if S. F. after his fraudulent manner had not cut them of and dissembled them, for thus saith the text of S. Luke.

5 Fratres autem confestim &c. The brethren out of hand conuayed by night Paul and Silas from the per­secution of Thessalonica vnto the towne of Be [...], Act 17. where being ariued they entred into the Synagog of the Iewes, and these were the most noble of them t [...]at d [...]e in Thessalonia, who receiued the woord with all g [...] ­dines searching dayly the Scriptures if these things al­leaged out of the Prophets about Christ by Paul and Si [...]as) were so or noe. This is the place [...] Now let the discreet reader waigh prudently whether S.F. haue behaued himself knightlik [...] heer or no: first in cutting of these woord which most cleered the doubt (to wit tha [...] these were no vnlearned Iewes, but no bilio [...]es, [...] saith the text, that is the most principal amōg them) and then in making so impertinent [...]illation, that for so much as these princip [...] learned Iewes did in that particuler occas [...] searche some places of Scriptures, ther [...] must all our lay peeple read of necessity, [...] make themselues iudges of their ordina [...] teachers and Pastors.

[Page 62]To the second place of trying spirits whe­ther 6 they be of God or no I would aske the K^t. whether there be no other way or meanes of trying spirits but by remitting all sorts of people to the scriptures and those in vulgar languages?About tr [...]eng af spi [...]its. for if there be any other meanes, then it is absurd to tie the Apostles counsel of trying spirits to euery mans reading of scrip­tures, where the trial being remitted to eache mānes owne interpretation wil [...]al out so dif­ficultas no end can be expected. For I would aske our K^t. for examples sake when wil two women accusing one the other of a scolding spirit try out the truth of eache ones spirit by their owne read [...]ng scriptures, especially if there he no Iudge nor the coocking stoole at hand? Or to take some greater example when [...]il any two Sectaries as Brownistes and any other of our tyme contending about heretical spirits try thesame by scriptures, yea though [...]hey be of the learneder sorte? doth not this [...]ppeare by experience dayly? and how much [...]esse then cā vnlearned people trie their owne [...]r other mens spirits by reading scriptures in [...]ulgar languages?

And with this I would leaue the K^t. in this 7 [...]oint, but that he abuseth so egregiously a [...]ace of S. Chrisostome to wrest him to some [...]ew of his purpose,S. Chryso­stome nota­bly abused the Kt. as I can not omit to dis­ [...]uer it to the reader, wherby he may see [...]ith what consciences these men treat mat­ [...]rs of religion, vsing legerdemain in euery [...]ing, and this not of error or ignorance, but [Page] of knowne and set malice to deceaue, which trick whensoeuer (good reader) thow doest discouer plainly in any wryter though it were but once, yet oughtest thow neuer to trust him againe, but much more here in this our con­trouersy, where so often I haue shewed the­same most euidently both in the K^t. and his Minister O. E. and the rest. But now to the place it self.

8 He wil needs make S. Chrisostome to be of his opinion for permitting scriptures in vul­gar languages to all sortes of people, and that they both learned and vnlearned must exa­mine and discusse all their controuersies the­reby. Heare his woords. S. Chrisostome (saith he) thinketh it an absurd thing that all men▪ should not thus medle with religion. Pag. 53. Quomodo absurdum non est, &c. VVhat an absurdity is that: for money we trust not other men but count it and tel it after them, Chris. in 2. Cor. hom. 13. but for more excellent things simply to follow other mens sayings, especially fith we haue the exactest rule and ballance of all the testimony of the Law of God, therfore I pray and beseech yow that yow wil leaue what this and that man thinketh, & enquire all things of the Scriptures.

9 Thus relateth he S. Chrisostome: wherein truly there are so many fraudes and shifte [...] vsed, to make S. Chrisostome seme of his opinion, as is strange in a man of any ho­nor or shamfastnes; and the greatest fraud o [...] all is to peruert S. Chrisostoms whole mea­ning and discourse who handling this argu­mēt in the later part of his 13. Homely which [Page 63] he calleth the Moralitie of that he had said be­fore,S. Chrisostōs vvhole argu­ment pe [...] ­uerted. to wit, pauperem meliori esse conditione quam diuitem, that the poor man is in better stare then the riche: and he prefixeth these woords for the title of the Chapter which being a Christian Paradox as yow see, he prosecuteth thesame most earnestly and piously through out the whole Chapter, shewing the perils of the riche, & security of the poor with many other differences, and that we must not in this point follow the common opinion of wordly men that esteme riches for great feli­city but attend rather what the lawes and rules of Christ do teache vs, and finally he concludeth:Ibidem. Quae cum ita fint vulgi opiniones ne cir­cumferamus, Sed res ipsas expē [...]amus. An non enim ab­surdum & praeposterum fuerit nos cum de pecunijs agi­tar, alijs fidem non habere, Sed numero & cal [...]ulo id co [...]attere: cum autem de rebus iudicandum est in al [...]o [...]um opiniones temere ac velut obtorto collo trahi, [...] (que) cum exactam rerum omnium lancem & amussim ba [...]eamus nempe deuinarum legum Sententiam? Quo­ [...]avos omnes, rogo atque obsec [...]o, vt quid hic au [...] ille de [...] rebus sential, nihil morantes, Scripturas sacras [...]de en consulatis, ac quae verae sint opes cogn [...]scatis, which woords truly englished do sound thus.

‘Which things (concerning true [...]riches and 10 pouertie) seing they are so as I haue before de­clared) let vs not carry about with vs the opi­nions of vulgar men,The true in­terpretation of S. Chri­sostomes vvoords. but let vs examine thin­ges as they be in themselues, for were it not an [...]bsurd & preposterous thing, when we deale [Page] in money matters not to trust other men, but to tel and compt it, and when we are to iudge of thinges themselues to suffer vs rashly and as it were with a wry neck to be drawe into other mēnes opinions, especially where as we haue that exact ballance, rule & square of all thinges, which is the sentence or determina­tion, of Gods lawes? Wher [...]ore I do pray & beseech yow all, that in these things yow wil not stand vpon, what this or that man thin­keth, but that yow take counsel rather of holy scriptures, and learne by them which are true riches indeed.’

11 Thus saith S. Chrisostome, and now let vs briefly examine how many wayes the K. hath peruerted this one place,The abuse offred by S. F. to 5. Chry­sostome. to make it sound somewhat to his purpose, albeit not muche though it were as he alleageth it. But first of all he wresteth his whole meaning (as before I haue noted) which is the greatest sinne in al­leaging any author that may be. For S. Chry­sost. treateth a far differēt question from ours, to wit, of true and false riches, as in the title of the Chapter he professeth, and hauing handled it largely, he concludeth in those first woords by me alleaged, and gu [...]lfully cut of and left out by S^r. F. Quae cumita sint &c. which things being so let not vs follow the opinion of the vulgar sort (about true riches and pouerty) but let vs consider thinges [...] they be in thēselues, &c. which woords do wholy ouerthrow S^r. F. principal illation, that vn­learned people should not follow other mens opinions, to wit, their Pastors in matters of [Page 64] religion, but go & try it in scriptures, wherof S. Chrysostome neuer so much as dreamed.

Secondly the first woords alleaged by the 12 K^t. in Latyn Quomodo absurdum non est, &c. are 2 not so in S. Chrysostome as yow see by those which I haue alleaged, which is a token that he had them out of some Ministers notebook and read them not himself. Thirdly the woord 3 praeposterum left out in his translation impor­teth some fraud also, for that this woord she­weth the comparison not to be betwene rea­ding of scriptures & other mens testimonies, especially our ordinarie Cath. Pastors as he would haue it seme. Fourthly those other woordes. (But for more excellent thinges simplie to 4 follow other mens sayinges) are not in the text as yow may see by comparing it, but are deceit­fully layd together to make men think that simple obedience or belief of our teachers in Gods Churche is here reprehēded by S. Chri­sostome, and that euery man and woman is willed to go to the scriptures. And for this cause fifthly he translateth those woordes di­uinarum 5 legum sententiam the testimony of the law of God: where as the sentence or deter­mination of these deuine lawes heere spoken of by S. Chrysostome, as they be conteyned partly in scriptures and partly in the tradi­tiō of Gods Churche, which was before scrip­tures were written, so is it not necessary for euery man and woman to be remitted to rea­ding of scriptures for learning them as heer, is pretended.

[Page] 13 It followeth sixtly in S. Chrysostome. 6 VVherfore I pray and besech yow all, that in these things yow wil not stand vpon what this or that man thinketh, &c. Which woords S^r. F. translateth thus: I pray and besech yow that yow wil leaue what this or that man thinketh, &c. leauing out of pur­pose the woords that make most to the mat­ters de hijs rebus, of these things, to wit, of true and false riches, which is the subiect handled by S. Chrysostome. And S^r. F. would haue his reader [...] thinke (though neuer so vnlearned) that he is prayed in all matters of Religion to leaue what this or that man thinketh (though it be his Pastor or any other Cath. teacher) and enquire all those things of the scriptures which is most absurd and furthest from S. Chrysostom [...] meaning: And in these very last woordes of the K^t. there be two or three shift [...]s and manifest corruptions: for where as S. 7 Chrysostome sayth: Scripturas sacras de eis con­sulatis, he translateth it, and enquire all these things of the scriptures, adding the woord (all) of purpose to disguise the meaning of S. Chrysostome, as though he would haue all matters by euery man and woman imediatly searched out from the scriptures, & as though he had not handled a particuler argument, for which the scriptures were to be consulted against the vayne opiniō of vulgar men about 8 true and false riches, for which cause the K^t. cutteth of also the next imediat woords fol­lowing in the self same sentēce for explication of S. Chrysostoms meaning ac quae verae sint opes [Page 65] cognoscatis, and that yow may knowe which are true riches.

And thus I haue byn longer then I thought 14 to be in notifying vnto yow this maner of dealing of S.F. and his Minister (as in the pre­cedent Chapter yow haue sene also about the handling of Hosius) when they cite any Fa­thers or Authors of moment against vs, which commonly is with such fraud and deceit, corruption and mangling, as if the contro­uersy were for mens shuwes & not soules, or for shuw-soles, or as if it were for some tēporal and earthly tryfles, and not for the euerlasting possession of hel or heauen. But let vs see more of this kind of proceeding in the K^t. It is re [...]orded (saith he) that some of the learneder sort of your Cleargie haue vsed to say among their friends: Pag 54. Paralip. Abb. vrspergen. Pag 448. Sic dicerem in Scholis. Sed tamen (manet in [...]er nos, &c.) I would say so in the Scholes, but yet (let it be kept secret amongst our selues,) I think the contrary.

These woords I do not fynd in the Author by him alleaged cited in the margyn, and therfore God knoweth from what forge they come, perhaps by some Ministers notebook, that eyther deuised or corrupted them in cy­ting. But suppose they may be found, and that some Schole readers in matters eyther of phi­losophie or diuinity (for he specifieth no science) not belonging to any article of faith should say thus,Impertinent matter brought in. that in the schooles for not of­fending any part, he would follow the cōmon opinions of that vniuersity of schole, though in priuat for himself he were of an other opi­nion, what doth this proue? or to what end [Page] was this brought forth by the K^t. to confirme his principal propositiō, that we forbid laymē to medle in matters of religion? do yow see what direct proofes they bring.

15 But harken yet further to another charge immediatly following more heynous then this: The Fathers (sayth he) yow haue mangled and depraued where their testimonies were pregnant against your errors, Pag. 54. as for example; that plaine place of Gre­gory Nissene, eam solummodo uaturam, quae increata est, colere & venerari d [...]dicimus: we haue learned to adore and worship only that nature, which is vncrea­ted: where your Spanish diuines in their Index expur­gatorius set downe this direction, deleatur dictio solum­modo, put out the word only; and sundry such places, as both, Of diuers Iudices prin­ted and pa­blished in sundry con­tries. our learned men haue discouered, and in your In­dices are to be found out, &c. Yf our Indices be ex­tant (Sir) and that in print to shew to the world what we do in this behalf, then is not necessary the discouery of your learned men to manifest the same,See Posseui­ [...]us in biblioth. select. lib. and then is it both false and ridiculous which immediatly yow ad; that we thought to haue it remayn secret among our selues what we do in this behalf concerning the anciēt Fathers, &c. For who would publish books and expurgatorie Indices in all countreys of such corrections as we think needful, yf we would haue the matter secret, but these men must needs say somwhat though neuer so fond or repugnant to reason.

16 But for that of later dayes, diuers sectaries haue begonne to complayn greatly of the continuance of an ancient diligence vsed by [Page 66] the Cath. Roman Churche for repressing he­retical books and purging others corrupted by them, with infinite impostures, false trans­lations, wicked annotations, pernicious com­mentaries postiles, arguments, obseruations, and other like most pestilent infections, I shal be forced in this place to stand vpō this matter somwhat, and to open to the reader the truth of things about this point, and then shal we answere also this particular obiection, of dele­aiur solummodo made heere by S^r. Francis, & els where by many of his cōparteners as though we meant to blot out, all that is against vs in any sort of authors whatsoeuer.

First then it is to be vnderstood, that it hath 17 byn an ould custome of heretiks and sectaries from the beginning not only to wryte wicked bookes themselues,The custome of heretiks to corrupt bookes. but to corrupt other mēnes wrytings also most audaciously, to make them seeme to be of their secte and faction, euen as rebels are wont to do, who being but few at the beginning, do giue out notwithstanding for their better credit, that they haue many & great parteners in secret, and do oftentymes fayn letters to testifie the same.

Of this fraud of heretiks,Origenes in epist. ad Ale­xandrinos. Tertul. lib. contra Mar­cion. Euseb. Caesar. in apol. sub. no­mine Pam­phy [...] marty­ris Ruffinus in epist. ad Macarium. and of their cor­rupting not only the scriptures when they can but also other authors and wryters, we haue many ancient complaints among the Fathers of all ages, which were ouerlong heere to re­cite, the reader may see those that I haue no­ted in the margent, and therby may he make a ghesse of the rest.

[Page] 19 But now to this most dangerous assault of the diuel, [...]uagr. lib. 3. ca. 31. Cassio­dorus de Di­uin. lect. ca. 2. Leuitius de Sectis. Act. 8. tom. 9. By­blioth. Sanct. 6. Synod. act. 15. tom. 2. concil. &c. wherby he would bring all things in doubt and consequently the Churche of God into confusion, the said Churche in the strength of his holy spirit hath striuen and re­sisted euer with all diligence industry and lon­ganimity, accursing first both the heretiks and all their heretical wrytings, & then cleansing and purging the works of other authors from their pernicious corruptions,No book of former here­tyke hath remayned. infections, and poysoned impostures, and this diligence of the Cath▪ Churche hath peruayled so much & hath byn so grateful in the sight of God, as we see and feele at this day the miraculous effects therof which are, that of so many heretical volumes, as haue byn written from age to age against the truthe of Catholyke religion, and were curiously read and highly esteemed in those dayes by men that loued nouelties; scarse any one remayneth to this day, in so much that if we had not mention and memory of their said books and absurd positions by the testimony of Cath. authors that wrote against thē, we should scarse haue had any knowledge that they had wrytten such woorks.

20 For what is become (I pray yow) of all those volumes written by the Arrians, which did set a worke all the Cath. Fathers and Do­ctors of diuers ages to answere them? what is become of the many books of Pelagius our learned (though wicked) Brittaine? of Faustus the great Manichie, of whose great parts and labors S. Augustine himself that was, his [Page 67] greatest aduersary doth beare witnesse? of Petilian, Crescentius, and other wryting Dona­tists? What is become of the 200. books or volumes of our Ihon VVicliffe or wicked-beleef as Thomas VValsingham calleth him? are they not all gon? So as yf our other learned con­treyman Thomas VValden VVicliffes opposite, and some others did not make mention therof, and of that nūber, we should neuer haue knowne that he had wrytten so many to his owne con­fusion.

Wel then these are the effects of this holy 21 industry of the Catholyke Church in cēsuring and condemning the wrytings of heretyks, which censure though it be commonly litle esteemed, but rather contemned by them and their followers for the tyme present, yet as the figtree in the ghospel died and withered away after the curse of Christ receyued so do these men and their works by litle and litle dy in themselues after the malediction and con­demnation of his spouse the Churche, though presently it be not seene, but future tymes wil declare it, and if we haue seene the experience therof in 15. ages past, we may beleeue it also of this, which is the 16. Let the heretiks vaunt and brag what they wil to the contrary, and already we see some proof therof. For I would aske yow, who readeth or esteemeth greatly Martyn Luthers works at this day in En­gland (I meane of Protestants) though they were more perhaps in number then those of S. Augustine, and much more esteemed for [Page] some yeares by his fol [...]owers,Luthers books out of request. he being accōp­ted the Elias of our tyme, & Father of the new ghospel. And the lyke I might aske of the books of Oecolampadius, Carolstadius, Zwinglius, and other the first pillers of Protestants Religion? and if they be eyther in contempt, or of decli­ning estima [...]ion among their owne ofspring so soone, what do we think that they are amongst Catholyks, and wil be to their poste­rity when this tempest shalbe blowne-ouer, and the Churche restored to a calmer season againe?

22 And thus much of the effects of this dili­gence as also of the necessary causes inducing to vse the same, which may be greatly con­firmed by the cōtrary effects to be seene amōg heretyks and sectaries where this diligence is not, or cannot be vsed, nor if it were, can it haue the forsayd benediction of good successe, for that God the giuer of that benediction is not with them; & so we see that among them all sectaries books whatsoeuer are read pro­miscuously of all men and women, euen the Turks Alcaron it self, Macheuile & Bodin tending to Atheisme, and baudy Boccace, with the most pestilent English Pallace of Pleasure (all forbidden among vs Catholyks) are read and studied by whome it lyketh them, wherby it must needs ensue, that the peoples iudgment & affections are pittifully infected with poyson in euery kynd where no prohibition is vsed to the contrary.

23 The only diligence that is vsed at this day [Page 68] among them is to prohibit and keep out Ca­tholyke books,No bookes prohibited amongst pro­testants but Catholyke. which only do contayne indeed the true medicines for these maladies, and yet is this a hard matter to do, considering the va­riety, vtility, and necessity of such books, inso­much that yf they exclude not all good sciēces, and togeather with them the ancient Fathers, Councels and Ecclesiastical histories them­selues, and more then this destroy not many monuments of their owne, they cannot ex­clude the arguments persuading people to the truthe of Catholyke religion.

And this being so let vs se now a litle what 24 maner of diligēce the catholyke Churche doth vse in repressing heretical books and purging other by heretiks infected.Diligence of the Catholyk Church in prohibiting and purging bookes. The late vniuersal and Oecumenical Coūcel of Trent preceyuing the infinite multitude and variety of heretical wrytings that were come forth already and came forth dayly of all new sects as Lutherans, Zwinglians, Anabaptists, Caluinists, Swinkefeldians, Libertines, Trinitarians, new Arrians; and others, to infect the world withal,Index expur­gar. Concili [...] ̄ Trident. resolued according to the custome of other general Councels & Synods before them, to take some effectual remedy for this disorder, and for that purpose appoynted an Index or catalogue of all pro­hibited books, and did set downe 10. rules at the beginning therof for better direction of all Cath. men in that affayre; wherof the first is; that all books and authors forbidden or condemned before by any General Coun­sel or Bishoppes of Rome vntil the yeare of [Page] Christ 1515. (which was 2. yeares before Lu­ther published his heresy) should be vnder­stood also to be forbidden and condemned by them; by which we may see, that one councel in the Cath. Churche hath relation to another and confirmeth the same, which heretyks vse not to do in their assemblyes & meetings.

25 ‘The second rule is; That all Archeretyks that haue byn Authors of seueral sects since that tyme, as Luther, Zwing [...]ius, Caluyn, Balthasar, Pacimontanus Swin [...]feldius, and other lyke are cōdemned by name with their books, as other heretykes also whatsoeuer since that tyme in general. The third rule is; that all translation of other mennes works & wrytings made by heretyks, so they conteyne no corrupt [...]on contrary to the Cathol. fayth may be per­mitted.’

26 ‘The fourth rule is, how bybles in vulgar tongues, may be read, permitted, or forbidden. The fift rule is; that books which treat not of diuinity but of other matters set forth by heretyks may be permitted after they are cleansed, and purged frō heretical impostures;’ and the lyke of other books and woorks with particular direction how they may be purged, and restored to their pure integrity, the parti­culars wherof were ouerlong heer to be dis­cussed. Only I wil aduertise that besides these rules,Instructions for expur­ging of books. there are certayne instructions also set foorth in print in the same Index for the exe­cution of these rules, wherin hauing shewed how they may proc [...]ed with books of our age [Page 69] written eyther by heretiks or Catholyks, if they conteyne errors heresies, athesmes, scur­rility, lasciuiousnesse or the lyke. The fourth instructiō hath these woords:Index expu [...] ­gat. Conc. Triden [...]. de correct. §. 4. In libris autem Ca­th [...]licorum veterum nihil mutari fas sit nisi vbi aut fraude haereticorum, aut typographi incuria mani­fes [...]us error irrepserit. ‘It may not be lawful (for them that correct books) to change any thing at all in the books of the auncient Catholyks, except where any manifest error should ap­peare to haue crept in eyther by the fraud of heretyks, or negligence of the printer, &c.’

Behould heere Catholyks deliuered from 27 that wicked slaunder offered by Syr Francis & his fellowes, that we take authority vnto vs to change, put out and put in what we list in the ancient Fathers works. This is the instruction of the general counsel confirmed by Pope Pius 4. and of all Popes after him, and now agayne by Clemens Octauus as appeareth by their seueral Breues put before it, neyther would the Spanish Index expurgatorius haue durst to gone against this direction,Index expur­gat. Hisp. im­press. Madrit [...] apud Alphōs. Gomitium. an. D [...]i 1584. especially seing that the Card. Gaspar Quiroga head of the Inquisition in Spayne in his preface to the said book saith; that this expurgation was made according to the meaning and direction of the councel of Trent and that by the cheefest men of all their vniuersities,Tvvo consi­derations in putting out any thing of the aun­cient vva­ters. so as albeit they cannot stand to giue a particular reason of euery censure or expurgation that is made; yet it is most cer­tayne, that in all they put out of any author before our age, they follow one of two reasons [Page] before mētioned, to wit that eyther they fynd it thrust in by heretiks, or by error of the printer, and that other more auncient and cor­rected coppyes had it not, and so might they say also of the former sentēce alleadged by Syr F. deleatur dictio solummodo, especially seing they do censure the sentence, not as a sentence of Gregory Nissene (as falsely and fraudulētly Syr F. doth set it downe) but of a farre later greeke author named Antonius Abbas of whome they say thus in their Index:Index expur­gat. Hisp. fol. 20. Ex libris Antonij Abbatis qui inscribuntur milissae, siue sermones & ementi [...]o ti­tulo ascribuntur Ant. Magno. ‘Out of the books of Antony an Abbot, which are intituled Melissae or certayne sermons, which falsely are ascri­bed to Anthony the great, &c.’

28 Wherby we may vnderstād, that these lear­ned men which gaue this cēsure esteemed not the sentēce to be eyther of Gregory Nissene (as S^r. F. alleageth it) nor yet of any other author of great antiquity, being indeed nothing els but a collection of sentences out of many authors here and there without order or method, and alleaged by Margarinus à Doctor of Paris in the fifth to me of his Bibliotheca sanctorum Parrum; In which woork as himself confesseth, in a certain preface, many things were hastily shuffled vp, and passing by many seueral hands diuers impertinent notes were made in the margent, vpon one of which S^r. F. groundeth his argument; that this sentence so censured was taken out of Gregorius Nassenus, which yet neyther is found in him, nor do the learned [Page 70] men of Spayne censure him or speak of him, but only of these sermons of Antonius Abbas, in which many other things are found worthy reprehension as this Index doth shew, & Pro­testāts themselues wil not deny, as for exāple, where they say:Serm. 72. col. 73. Serm. 26. col. [...]49. Deleantur illa verba, non potest ammus iniquus iustificari. An vniust mynd cannot be iustified. And againe Deus non omnium Deus est. God is not God of all men. And agayne: Largire pio, & peccatori ne succurras. Serm 27. Giue vnto a good man, but giue nothing to a sinner. And yet further:Lib. 2. Serm. 10. Est autem in Dei ma [...]u non qu [...]uis: Euery man is not in the hand of God. And finally: Deus non colitur ab homine malo. Serm. 55. God is not worshipped by an euil man, &c. In all which sentences, yow se there is need of some cen­sure & examimation, according as this Index doth note; and albeit by marginal notes they are pretended to be taken out of auncient Fa­thers, yet neyther is it alwayes so, nor do they cōteyne good doctrine, as yow see, & it apper­tayneth to the sollicitude of the Cath. churche to giue notice therof, where need is, least sim­ple people be deceaued.

And thus yow se that we haue iustified the 29 practise of our Churche in this behalf, and haue shewed the quarrels to be vayne and foolish, and not sincerely treated by him; and when all is sayd and considered, yow shal fynd it farre from his purpose, which is and ought to be to proue, if he could that we forbid lay men to meddle in matters of religion, which [...]e proued first for that they had not the scrip­tures [Page] in English, and then for that we peruert (as he sayth) the ancient Fathers with the cē ­sure of deleatur when any sentence lyketh vs not. Of which two proofes whether is most from the purpose let the reader iudge, who hath heard them both discussed.

ABOVT S. THOMAS of Canterbury whether he were a traytor or no as malitiously he is called by sir Francis and O. E. and what notorious impostures both they and Fox do deuise to disgrace him, against the testimony of all ancient wryters. CAP. X.

BVt now we must come to a greater 1 controuersy about S. Thomas Becket Archbishop of Canterbury whome Syr Francis without all occasion bringeth into controuersy among other impertinent points to maintayne matter of talk. For his subiect being of lay-men debarred the scrip­tures, and therby, (as he sayth) made carelesse of God & all godlynes; how might it fal to his pur­pose [Page] (think yow) to rayle at this blessed archbishop martyred so long agoe, and raig­ning now in heauen for so many hundred yeares; but that such prince-parasits as these, do think they cannot grace themselues suffi­ciently with Kings and Queenes now a dayes in Englād, except they haue a fling at this ho [...]y man who stood in the gappe and lost his lyfe for the defence of his Churches liberty.

2 Wherfore S^r. F. hauing both falsely and foolishly witten in the watchword, that among Catholyks there was no more required at lay-mens handes to the exercise of pie [...]y, but only to go deuoutly to masse, and to confession once a yeare, and then though he were to be taynted with the grossest sinnes, yet Rome had a trick to hale them into the rabble of their saints and so to canonise them. Yow se how liberal this gentleman is in canonizing, that requireth no more perfection, but once a yeare to go to masse and confession, and then he addeth: Of this we haue example of Tho. Becket in K. Henry the 3. his tyme, whose treason to the Prince was appa­rant and manifest, &c.

Thus saith he in his Watchword, wherin the Warder tooke him vp for diuers vntru­thes and absurdities as namely for saying that we hold it for sufficient perfection of holines, to heare masse and confesse once a yeare, and that a man may be a Saint▪ with vs yea cano­nized though he be taynted with the grossest sinnes that may be: That S. Tho. of Canter­bury was such a one canonized in the tyme of K. Henry the third, &c. which last point (to [Page 72] omit the rest) about the tyme of the death,A grosse er­ror About the tyme of S Thomas his death. and canonization of S. Thomas vnder K. Henry the third (as this man saith) and not the se­cond, is shewed not only to be false, but of grosse ignorance also, seing that K. Henry the 3. nephew to the second was borne more then 30. yeares after the death and canoniza­tion of S. Thomas, to which represension of error in story I do not fynd that S. F. giueth any reason of iust excuse in this his reply now, nor yet O. E. for him, but rather as though nothing had byn said against him for it turneth to repeat againe the same error vn­der pretence of a namelesse author, though in the manner of telling his tale he would co­uertly seeme somwhat to answere the ob­iection, for thus he wryteth:

To examyne a litle (saith he) the State of this 3 Becket, Pag 55. who was a traitor as I do affirme (and not I only but None euer except some late heretiks. many before me) against king Henry the se­cond, but (to vse the words of my author) taken vp and shryned for a new saint made of an old rebel 50. yeares after his death, which was in the fourth yeare of king Henry the third, &c. But this being so notorious an vntruth (if he meane of his ca­nonization as by his former woords in the Watch word may appeare) & he being repre­hended for it before (as yow haue heard) for modesties sake should at least haue named his author for some shew or defence. For if it be Iohn Fox, or some such other of as light cre­dit as himself, you see what cogging it is one of them to aleadge another, especially seing [Page] Fox also citeth the same woords, with the same parenthesis (to vse the words of my author) but neyther the one or the other citeth any author at all. And most certayne it is that neuer any author of credit in the world said or wrote that S. Thomas eyther practised treason or was made a saint in K. Henry the 3. his tyme, as in the former woords of his watch our knight affirmed, for that his con­ten [...]ion was with K. Henry the 2. grand fa­ther to K. Henry the 3. and his canonization was by Pope Alexander the 3. many yeares be­fore K. Henry the 3. was borne, as all wryters do agree. And the poore shift which heere the knight runneth vnto for saluing of his former error (to wit that S. Thomas his body was translated,Se Math. Paris and Matth VVest. an. Dn̄i 1220. Henr. reg. 3. an. 5 of the translation of S Tho. 6. Iuly. or as he tearmeth it, shr [...]ned the 4. yeare of K. Henry the 3.) maintayneth not his former assertion that Thomas Becket committed treason and was made a Saint in K. Henry the 3. his tyme. For what if S. Tho­mas body was translated from one shrine to another vnder K. Henry the 3. doth this proue that he was not canonized before? or that he comm [...]tted treason against this prince that was scarsely borne 30. yeares after his death?VVard. pag. 2 [...]. VVe haue an example (saith he) of Thomas Becket in Henry the 3. his tyme, whose treasons to the prince were apparant and manifest, &c. And is it not hereby apparent and manifest, that he told vs before that Tho. Becket committed trea­sons vnder Henry the 3 [...] and can this be excu­sed now with telling vs that his body was [Page 73] translated vnder Henry the 3? But these are the ordinary shifts which our aduersaryes vse when they are taken trip, to runne to imper­tinent matter, therby to dazel the eyes of the reader.

Let them read but Iohn Stow in the 25.4 yeare of K. Henry the 2. his raigne, which was of our Lord 1179. and 41. before the translation of S. Thomas his body mentioned heere by them and they shal find that both the s [...]d K. Henry the 2. and K. Lewes of France went in pilgrimage to S. Thomas his Tombe and offered rich Iewels for their deuotion being but 8. yeares after his death which hap­pened in the yeare 1171. So as herby is seene that he was canonized vnder K. Henry the 2. and not the third. To which effect also and for cleering this whole story let the ancient authentical authors be read which liued with S. Thomas or presently after him as for ex­ample those fiue that wrote his whole lyfe, actions and death,The authen­tical authors of the story of S. Tho. of Canterburie. to wit: Herbert Hoscan after­wards Cardinal, Iohn Salisbury bishop of Char­ters, Allen Abbot of Teukesbury, VVilliam and Edward monks of Canterbury, all which liued with him, as did also Peter of Blois Archdea­cō of VVels. And soone after vnder K. Richard the first, sonne to K. Henry the second, wrote Roger Houeden doctor and cheef reader of di­uinity in Oxford the whole life of S. Thomas, as is extant in his story, and so did Nubergen­sis also handle thesame at the same tyme, and so consequently after these, Mathew Paris, Ma­thew [Page] of VVestminster, Thom. VValsingam, Polidor Vir­gil, and others downewards in their histo­ries, all which do agree in this point against Sir Francis. First that S. Thomas was slayne and canonized vnder Pope Alexander the 3. and K. Henry the second, and not vnder Henry the 3. his nephew, and secondly that he was a most holy man of lyfe, euen setting the priuiledge of his martyrdome a side, and neyther taynted with grosse sinnes as these grosse tongues do slaunder him nor comitted euer any point of treason against his king, but as primate and head of the English Churche stood for the Ecclesiastical libertyes therof as in conscience he was bound, and by the issue of this my reioynder shal appeare.

5 Wherin first I must note vnto yow that the knight in the beginning of the combat about S. Thomas of Canterbury doth com­playne that I in my former answere seemed to threaten, that they who striued against Saynts would remayne in the end with bro­ken heads and that in some place I speak of bastinados, but all this is but picked matter by him to make a quarrel for wel he knoweth, that this is not to be vnderstood but figurati­uely, and that we are not to enter bataile or to stand with so puissant a knight in material ar­mes. Wherfore the bastinados or broken heads which I say he is like to gaine by figh­ting with saints is in his credit and reputation with men,VVhat basti­nados and brokē heads are threatned to S. F. and in his demerit also with God, if he esteeme that any thing, as it is like inough [Page 74] he doth, but litle. But for the first about dis­credit I do remit it to the iudgment of the in­different reader, what men wil or may think o [...] the honour of such a knight, as is not asha­med to come foorth in print with so many op probrious speeches, made out (as it seemeth) of his fingers ends against so honorable a perso­nage as S. Thomas of Canterbury was, whilst he liued, and so highly praysed and esteemed by all wryters for 4. hundred yeares after his death, and this without alleadging any one author old or new, good or bad, credible or without credit for proof of that which he wryteth: For so doth S. F. deale with, vs in his rayling narration against S. Thomas, set­ting downe as he pretendeth the whole sub­stance of that whieh passed betweene him & the King without cyting book or author, and quite contrary to all that (for the most part) which all ancient wryters that liued with him haue left behind them wrytten of this affayre; and moreouer hath corrupted (which is farre worse) and falsified also witingly and wil­lingly diuers things which he found in other authors,False dealing of S. Francis. therby to make them seeme somwhat to his purpose: all which yow shal see eui­dently proued in this examination of the two foresaid points, to wit of his lyfe & cōtention with the King.

And for the first about his lyfe and conuer­sation,6 whatsoeuer S.F. tatleth of grosse sinnes here or els where, most certayne and cleere it is, that all the foresaid ancient authors, and [Page] whosoeuer hath wrytten of him besides (not­withstāding they wrote vnder the foresaid K. Hēry his enemy or Richard the first his sonne) do giue most high prayses to this man for his integrity of lyfe according to those words of D. Houeden:D. Houeden annal. part. 2. fol. 2 [...]7. Vita etus irreprehensibilis erat coram Deo & hominibus. His lyfe was irreprehensible before God and man, yea his very aduersaries themselues as Ihon Fox by name, after he hath shewed the greatest gaule against him, yet cō ­fessing the helps of nature that were in him (to vse his owne words) he addeth:Fox act. and mon. pag. 1 [...]6 col. 2. n. 4. Besydes this (sayth he) he was of a chast and strickt lyfe yf the hi­stories be true.

7 Mark Iohn Fox his exception (if the histories be true) & why should he cal in doubt auncient histories, more in this point, then in others? But yow must vnderstand that this Fox ha­uing a special spite against this blessed man, & being desirous by all meanes possible to dis­grace him and his actions in his false lying martyrologe, and finding no authors in the world before Luthers heresy to serue his pur­pose or to speak or wryte euil of him, but all rather highly in his commendation, what course taketh the miseriable man think yow? truly a most desperate, which is to vse these authors against themselues and against both their owne sayings and meanings and so pat­cheth he vp, as it were out of them a long trea­tese and narration of aboue 40. pages of paper against S. Tho. pretending to take it out of the foresaid authors, but yet spicing it with so [Page 75] many [...]fs & ands, Fox his egre­giou [...] fal [...]e dealing against S. Thomas. & adioyning so many glosses, parentheses, notes, obseruations, interpreta­tions, commentaries and censures of his owne both in the text and margent, as he maketh all those wryters to tel a quite contrary story to that they purposed, and for which they wrote their books, in such sort, as if a man should set out the byble or new Testament it self with such corruption and peruersion it would more disgrace Christian religion (for whose confir­mation it was wrytten) thē any other wicked book whatsoeuer, yea then the Turks Alcaron it self.

And this is the dealing of Iohn Fox in cy­ting 8 and corrupting authors, as after shal ap­peare more particularly. But Sir Francis ta­keth another course which is to tel his tale at his pleasure, without cyting any testimony or author at all, wherof I take the reason to be that which Iohn Fox telleth vs in these words plainly:Iohn Fox discrediteth all ould vvry­ters. Pag. 204. col. 1. n. 4. Scarse any testimony is to be taken of that age, being all blynded and corrupted with superstition. Thus he saith and this is the cause why Sir F. alleageth no author, and Fox forceth them to speake as he would haue them. But I would aske Iohn Fox againe, if no wryter of the age it self wherin S. Tho. liued be to be credited about his affaires, how shal we beleeue wry­ters of later ages that must needs take it from the former, if they write with foundation & not deuise matter of themselues? Againe, I would aske whether it be probable that so great a king as K. Henry the second was, [Page] could get no man to wryte the Story indiffe­rently for him in his age? How likely a fiction is this of Fox? And this may be sufficient for the first point; for seing all the foresaid wry­ters and their woorks are ful of high prayses of S. Thom. for his sanctity and perfection of lyfe, and for that cause are specialy discredi­ted heere by Iohn Fox it shalbe sufficient to remit the reader in this behalf to thesaid vo­lumes and wrytings before mentioned.

9 For the second which is his cause with the king whether his resisting as Primate of Eng­land for liberty to the English Churche were treason to the K. or no,VVhether S. Thom. vvas a traitor. is easy to be iudged by him, that is not passionate, and wil with­out flattery of temporal Princes consider in­differently, the dignity, preheminence, duty, and obligation of Ecclesiastical gouernours in this behalf, for defence of their spiritual iu­risdiction; To which purpose the Warder said as followeth:

10 ‘If in euery contention or dissention, that a bishop,VVard. p. 22. priest, or other spiritual subiect or Ecclesiastical Prelate may haue with his tem­poral prince,That all spi­ritual men resisting tem­poral magi­strats in Ec­clesiastical matters are not traytors. Marc. 18. the subiect shal presently be con­demned of treason (according to this seruile cēsure of our knight who for flattering prin­ces doth make them absolute lords both of body and soule) then Iohn Baptist also must be accompted a traitor that dealt so perempto­rily with his king Herod his liege lord in tem­poral affaires. Or yf yow wil haue examples of christian princes, S. Ambrose must be a tray­tor, [Page 76] first for resisting openly his [...]ord and King,Theod. lib 4. ca. 6. & lib. 9. cap. 17 & deinceps. Valentinian the yonger, and then for handling so hardly the elder Theod [...]sius in Miliayn as he shut him out of the Churche, and made him go home againe with shame and do pennāce.Zozomenus lib. 8 fere pet totum. S. Hilarius also and S. Athanasius shalbe traytors for their contentions with Constantius their lawful Emperor and temporal lord who ba­nished them from their bishopricks, and the former of the two wrote two vehemēt books and inuectiues against thesaid Emperor, and yet no man euer accompted him a traytor for thesame, but rather a great Saynt, for his chri­stian liberty and constancy.’

‘S. Chrysostome in like maner shalbe condem­ned 11 for a great traytor who had greater con­tentions with his temporal lords Arcadius and Honorius christian Emperors,Socrat. lib. 6. cap. 16. and with their wiues Theodosia and Eudoxia then euer S. Tho­mas had with K. Henry the second:Zozom lib. 8 cap. 17. for he preached against them publikely with great vehemency and thundered out excommuni­cation against them,Niceph. li. 14. cap. 43. and was twice banished and dryuen out of his bishoprick by their dis­fauours, and died in exile. And yet was he ne­uer called or accompted a traytor, but a singu­lar holy man: and Theodosius the yonger, sonne of Arcadius, brought his body with great so­lemnity honor and reuerence into Constanti­nople, and wept most bitterly for the synnes of his parents in persecuting so blessed a man, & (as the Story saith) made prayer to him now dead for pardon of his fathers synnes; as did also often [Page] both our K. Henry the second himself and his sonne for the offence of his father,Math. Pari­sien in vit. Henr. who had ben some cause of the death of this iust man his pastor and spiritual father.’

12 Thus wrote the Warder then, and what replyeth now our knight or his minister to all this? yow shal heare the knight in his owne woords: VVho (saith he) but such a one as hath sold himself to all impudency and shamelesse gayn­saying the truth,Pag. 54.would seek to couer Beckets rebellion by the facts of S. Iohn Baptist, Ambrose, Hilary, Atha­nasius, and Chrysostome, which haue as much agree­ment with the cause of Becket, as hath light with darknesse, good with euil, sweet with sower. Heer yow se the knight in a great heat, but his mi­nister O. E. answereth somwhat more tempe­rately saying only, that These examples fit not Thomas Becke [...]s cause. Wel then of two poynts contayned in this matter, the one we haue gotten that in some cases, spiritual prelates, though subiects in temporalityes may repre­hend and resist, yea chasten also by Ecclesiasti­cal punishment their liege lords and temporal princes without being traytors for the same. The second whether the examples be like, we are to examine a litle in this place.

13 And first I would aske our minister that denyeth the fitnes of the examples,The compa­rison of S. Thom vvith S. Ambrose, Hillary and other fathers. as also his master that chafeth at them. what and where about were the foresayd Saints contentions with their temporal Princes, were they not for the defence of the lawes of Christ and his Churche, did not S. Iohn Baptist withstand [Page 77] Herod his temporal Lord to his face for breaking the lawes of wedlock and was not the strife of S. Ambrose with Valentinian his Emperour first for that he would not deliuer vp a Catholike Churche to the vse of Arrians as he and his mother had commaunded, and secondly for that he would not giue vp the treasure and vessels of his Churche into the Emperors owne hands as he required. Heare his owne testimony thereof.S. Ambr. in orat. in Auxō. de Basilicia traden. Cum esset propo­sitū (saith hee) vt ecclesiae vasa iam traderemus, &c. when it was proposed vnto vs in the Emperours name that wee should deliuer him the vessel of our churche I gaue this answere. If any thing of my owne were demaunded, eyther land howse gold or siluer I would easely yeild vnto him any thing that were belonging vnto mee. But from the Churche of God I told him that I could take nothing, for that I had receyued it not to deliuer but to keep. And that with this I had respect also of the Emperours saluation. For that it was ney­ther expedient for mee to giue, nor for him to receyue. Accipiat ergo vocem liberi sacerdotis, &c. Let his Maiestie then receyue the word of a free priest if he wil haue care of his owne saluation, let him cease to offer iniury to Christ.

Lo here the answeare of an ecclesiastical 14 Prelate but a temporal subiect to his highest Prince, doth not this seeme to bee speach of some Catholyke Bishop to a Protestant Prince that would inuade Churche goods & posses­sions against which poynt S. Ambrose was so resolute to stand as he sayth in the same place: that yf sorce were vsed towards him his flesh might [Page] bee troubled but not his mynd, and that he was readie yf the Emperour would vse his kingly authority in of­fring violence to stuffer that which belonged to a good Priest to beare. And what doth this differ now from the cause of S. Tho. of Canterbury who stood vpon defence of his Ecclesiastical iuris­dictiō against K. Henry his temporal Prince that vsurped the same. Heare the words of S. Thomas himself vsed to K. Henry in a Coūcel at Chynon in Frāce as D. Houeden sets them downe:Rog. Houe in vit. Henr. 2. pag. 285. ‘Non deberetis Episcopis praecipere absoluere aliquem vel excommunicare trahere Clericos ad saecu­laria examina iudicare de decimis, de ecclesits interdi­cere Episcopis ne tractent de [...]ransgressione fidei vel Iu­ramenti, &c. Yow ought not to take vpon yow to commaund Bishops to absolue or exco­municate any man neyther to draw cleargie men to the examinatiōs of seculars, neyther to iudge of tythes or of churches or to forbid Bishop [...] to treat of transgressiōs against faith, or against oathes broaken or the like, &c.’ Doe not wee seme to heare in this place the voice of S. Ihon Baptist to his K. Herod. It is not lawful for the to haue the wyfe of thy brother. S. Marc. 1 [...]. Or is not this agreable to the speach of S. Am­brose to Valentinian that he could not force him to deliuer any churche or holy vessels thereof, and that he would dy in that quarrel against him.

15 But let vs heare an other controuersy of his with another Emperour more deuout & religious then the former,The conten­tion of S. Ambrose vvith Theo­dosius the Emperor. to wit: Theodosius the great in Millain for that he would not do [Page 78] publike pennance prescribed by this holy B. to him for the excesse in punishing those of Thessalonica, and had not this beene rebelliō and treason by Protestants law for a priest to driue his king and Emperour (that by their diuinity was head of their churche) to publike penance and to go out of his Churche as S. Ambose did compel Theodosius to go out of the churche of Millan. But let vs go forward and see the rest of examples before touched,Pallad. in vit. Chrysost. was not the contention of S. Chri­sostome with Arcadius and Honorius his Princes & Emperours and with their wyues when he kept some of them by force out of his churche about ecclesiastical liberty and iurisdiction also. And that also of S. Athanasius & Hilarius against Constantius their Emperour and su­preme head also according to the Protestants opinion in spiritual matters, for that he fauo­red Arrians, deposed Catholike Bishops and made himself vmpyre in ecclesiastical affay­res as Protestants Princes doe now a dayes. Did S. Tho. Primate of England say or write more to K. Henry at any tyme then S. Gre­gorie Nazianzen a particular Archbishop sayd vnto his Emperour that was present and an­gry with him.Nazian. orat. ad Ciues & Imper. [...]rascē ­tem. Vos quoque potestati meae meisque subsellijs lex Christi subiecit, scio se esse ouem mei gre­gis, sacri gregis, sacram ouem. Yow also (o Em­perour) the law of Christ hath made subiect vnto my power, and to my tribunal. I know thee to bee a sheep of my flock, a sacred sheep of a holy flock. If Nazianzene had sayd [Page] this to an English King or should doe at this day, how would our Protestants Prince-pa­rasytes cry out and say that he were a proud Prelate as they say of S. Thomas.

16 The cheif and onelie contention of king Henry with the Archbishop as before in part you haue heard was about ecclesiastical iurisdiction as the articles set downe by all wryters doe testify,The articles vpon vvhich S. Tho. disa­greed vvith the king. as namely, that no Bishop might appeale to the Sea Apostolike without licence of the king that no seruant or tenant holding of the king might be excommunicated without his licence, that no Bishop should bee able to punish any man for periury or breaking his faith, that all cleargie men might bee forced to secular iudgments as all controuer­syes also pert [...]yning to tythes and other like cases. And now yf these controuersyes should haue fal­len out as in part they did betweene the aun­cient christian Emperours and the holy Bi­shops before named would they not think you haue stood in them with no lesse feruour then S. Thomas did.

17 But now let vs heare and examine how Syr F. doth proue this holy Archbishop to bee a traytor. Thus he writeth of the begin­ning of the controuersy. There was (as authors doe affirme) in that time of Henrie the second, Pag 56. more then a hundred murthers besydes other felonyes proued vpon the cleargie which when the king would haue punished according to the lawes of the land, A f [...]lse and sl [...]und [...]rous beginning of the [...]. Becket op­posed himself and beardeth the king in this so iust an action, vnder title of standing for the libertyes of the Churche & from this straūge ground these proceedings [Page 79] ensued. In which words of the knight there is to bee noted first that where he saith: authors doe affirmè that more then a hundred murders besides other [...]ellonies were proued vpon the cleargie: no other author is found to mention any such thing but onelie Nubergensis who yet doth not say that they were proued vpon the clergie, but his words are:Nuberg hist. Angl. l. 2 16. that it was said to haue byn tould the king at a certaine time that aboue a hundred mur­ders had byn committed within the kingdome of Eng­land since his raigne, by Cleargie men.

In which woords as you see Nubergēsis doth 18 not say, that it was true, or that it was proued, as our knight doth: and secondly he speaketh of the whole tyme of king Henries raigne, vntil this contention, which was some 14. or 15. yeares: and thirdly the falling out of the Archbishop with the king was not for that he would not haue these clergie men punished if they had offended (as wickedly this knight giueth to vnderstand, saying presently after; This proud prelate durst protect fellons and murderers against the king and iustice of the lan [...]) but the con­trouersy was only about the maner of pu­nishing those that did offend, and by what iudges and iurisdiction they should be pu­nished, to wit whether by ecclesiastical or temporal power, for that the Archbishop af­firmed that equity required that clergie men offending should first be iudged condemned and degraded by ecclesiastical power accor­ding both to the cannon lawes as also the mu­nicipal lawes of the land confirmed by all [Page] former Christian Kings [...]rom the first conuer­sion of England, and that they being thus con­demned, should be deliuered to secular power for execut [...]on of the sentence, which is a case that fa [...]leth out dayly in Spayn, Italy, France and other Cath. contreys, where Bishops do defend their Ecc [...]es. iurisdiction in punish­ing Eccles. persons, taking them also by force of censures out of secular iudges hands when occasiō is offered without all note of rebellion or treason. And no lesse was this law of the realme of England confirmed by ancient par­liaments and other antiquities then were the secular lawes, for which S^r. F. standeth, and fondly calleth the defence of eccles. lawes treason and rebellion.

19 Wherfore hauing set downe so false a rela­tion of the beginning of this controuersy (fal­sifying Nubergēsis, as yow see, in many points) he doth prosecute the same with lyke vntruth, as presently yow shal see. And first he begin­neth with a certayne letter of Maud the Em­presse vnto the Archbishop which she wrote at the instance of the King her sonne, and vpō the informatiō of such courtyers as were contrary to the Bishop and his cause. In which letters she chargeth him, that (to vse S^•. F. owne words) as much as in him lay, he went about to disinherit the King and depriue him of his crowne. Whervnto I answere, that truth it is, Iohn Fox hath such a letter of thesaid Empresse Maud without telling where,Pag [...]8. or whence, or how he had it, or where we may read it, for [Page 80] in none of all the authors aboue mentioned I do fynd it. Yet one thing I would haue the reader to note,S. F vntrue dealing in cyting mat­ters, against S. Thom. which testifieth the conti­nuance of S^r. F. vntrue dealing in this affayre, that wheras in Iohn Fox the whole charge of the empresse against the Archbishop is miti­gated by this parēthesius (as the report is) which sheweth that these were but suspitions only and reports of his enimies;Fox Pag. 201. S^r. F. hath left out the parenthesis (as the report is) as though she had charged him vpon her owne knowledge, which is no true dealing or right meaning as yow see.

But let vs heare further S^r. F. his words pre­tending 20 a more certayne proof, of treason & rebellion in S. Thomas:Pag. 58. But if the Empresse (saith he) might be thought to speak partialy on the K. her sonnes behalf, yet the two Card. sent by the Pope to heare all this controuersy, out of question wil not con­demne him without iust cause, and yet in a letter sent from them to the Pope, they do condemne him, &c. Yf S. F. proue himself a true K^•. in verifying this one poynt which here he sayth, I am to par­don much of that which hath passed before: But yf in this matter of so great moment he be taken in lyke falshood, who wil then trust him hereafter? Let vs examine then the matter & I wil haue none other euidēces or witnesses but his owne woords: for presently after he setteth downe a part of the letter of VVilliam and Otho. Card. sent by Pope Alexander to heare the cause betwene the King & the Archbishop and hauing trauayled therin, the King being [Page] in Normandie and the Archb. at Paris, they found the matter more hard then they imagined to compoūd,False dealing of Syr Fraun­ces. for that the Archbishop demaunded restitution to his lyuings for himself and for his frends, and reuocation of certayne lawes lately made, preiudicial to ecclesiastical iuris­diction, before he could end the matter wher­with the-sayd Card. being somwhat dis­pleased, for that they desired to carry with them to the Pope the glory of this accord made by them, and for that the King had much gay­ned their good wil by liberallity towards thē; for these causes they wrote to the Pope som­what fauorably in the Kings behalf, but yet nothing condemning the Archbishop as vn­truly out K^•. doth auow, which now I shal shew out of the woords of their owne letter alleaged heere by S.F. which are these.

21 VVilliam and Otho Card. of the Churche of Rome to Alexander the Pope, The letter of the tvvo Car­dinals to the Pope. & [...]. VVe comming to the land of the K. of England found the controuersy betwixt him and the Archbishop of Canterbury more sharp and vehement then we would, for the King, & the greater part about him said, that the Archbishop had s [...]y [...]red vp the french King greuously against him, as also the Earle of Flaunders his kinsman, (who was very louing and kynd to him before) whome he made his open ad­uersary ready to wage warre against him, as is by di­uers euidences most certayne, &c. These are the words of the Card. by S. F. relation, which supposing they were truly alleaged, yet he that shal consider and ponder them wel, wil see that out of them no more can be vrged against [Page 81] the Archbishop, but that the King and those about him did say, that the Archbishop had styrred vp the K. of Fraunce and the Earle of Flanders against them, and that this was held by them for most certayne vppon diuers eui­dences. But what these euidences were none of them do set down.

So that heere is no condemnation at all 22 from the Card▪ themselues, but only that they relate what the King and his part sayd, and yet yow must note that S. Francis (besydes other euil translation of the words) hath wilfully corrupted the last clause of all to make it seeme as though it proceeded from the Card. iudg­ment, to wit,Quadrileg. de vita B. Thom. lib. 5. cap. venien­tes. as is by diuers euidences most certayn, wheras in latyn after the first words: Asserebat Rex & sucrum pars, &c. The king with the greater part of his affirmed that the Archbishop had done this &c.) yt followeth, Sicut sibi pro ce [...]to constabat, & euid [...]ntibus apparebat indicijs, as to them it was held for certayne and appeared by euident signes. Out of which woords S. F. of purpose cutteth of both sibi and indicijs, False dealing of Syr Fran­cis. to them & signes: For that by the first yt was euident that this was spoken in the name of the King and his frends and not of the Card. and by the second appeareth that the euidence which the King and his had of this matter and accusation was founded only in signes and coniectures: which being euident to our K^•. he did not only stryke out the sayd words, but maketh also a seuere inference vpon the rest, that are left mangled by him self, as yow haue seene: his inference [Page] is this:Pag. Ibid. Now (sayth he) for a subiect to styrre vp forrein states to make warre vpon his soueraygne, and countrey, was at all tymes high treason: but that Becket did so by the Card confession, was by diuers euidences most certayne. Therfore Becket, not now his enemies, but his brethren the sonnes of his owne mother being iudges, was a traytor.

23 Lo heer the inuincible argument of our learned knight: yf any man can trust him here­after vpon his woords, I shal much maruaile seing him so shamelesse in a matter so euidēt. For who discouereth not the impudency of his second proposition, when he sayeth that Becket did so by the Card. confession, wh [...]ras the Card. confesse no such thing, but only say that the king and his people did affirme it; nether did the Card. say as our K^t. falsly char­geth them, that the matter was certayne to them by diuers euidences, but only that the king sayd yt was certayn or seemed so to him by diuers eui­dent signes and coniectures. Shamefully then hath our K^t. abused the authority of these Card. as he doth comonly all authors that come through his hāds. And with this I end this controuersy of S. Thomas his cause with the King: which cause whatsoeuer the K^t. tatleth to the cōtrary yet was yt neuer accoūpted treason or named so by any author that wrote in that tyme, eyther frend or foe, nor shal S. F. be able to alleadge me any one instance to the contrary before Luthers dayes.

24 And as for the King himself though he pur­sued him eagerly, for that he would not yeild [Page 82] to his desyre touching Eccles. iurisdiction, yet neuer is it read that he euer called or coūpted him for a traytor, nor any forrayne Prince whatsoeuer. And within 8. yeares after his death (as before I noted) both he, and Lewes the K. of Fraunce went in Pilgrimage to his tombe at Canterbury, which is lykely they would not haue done, nether the one nor the other, yf they had reputed him for a traytor. Iohn Stow putteth downe the relation thus. The 27. of August both the Kings came to Canterbury, Stovv anno Domini 1179 reg Hent. 21. 25. where they were with due honor receaued, &c. Lewes K. of France offered vpon the tombe and to the shryne of Thomas Becket a riche cup of gold: he gaue also that renowned pretious stone▪ that was called the regal of France, which K. Henry the 8. put afterwards in a ring, & wore yt on his thombe, &c.

Thus saith Stow out of other authors. And 25 whether king Lewes of France would haue taken a iorney into England to the shryne of a man that he knew, and had talked withal few yeares before, and would haue offered such pretious gyfts, yf he had suspected him for a traytor, or that his miracles had byn faynd as after Sir F. affirmeth; and whether king Henry himself being no way forced therunto wold haue accompained him in such an action to his owne disgrace (who commonly was reputed to haue byn the cause of his death) yf he had held him for a traytor, let euery man iudge. And so we shal passe from his point to another about his mi­racles [Page] wherin the cauillers shew themselues more vayne, conscienslesse and malitious (yf it may be) then in the former.

OF S. THOMAS HIS myracles, and what may be thought of them, and other such lyke, with the malitious cor­ruption and falshood vsed by Iohn Fox and S. F. to discredit them. There is handled also the different manner of Canonising sainctes in their and our Churche. CAP. XI.

1 AMONG many other arguments that I vsed in the VVardword for the holynes of this Archbishop (to all which this VVastword answereth no one word at all) I said also that many miracles haue byn recorded by graue authors and publike testimony of the whole Iland, [...] 3. and of forraine wryters to haue byn wrought by God at his sepulcher and otherwise by his intercession in witnes of his sanctity. Vpon which words Syr F. taketh oc­casion (with his heretical spirit of incredulity) to iest and blaspheme at all miracles of Pope­made Saints (for that is his cōtumelious terme) but with what reason, truth, prudēce or piety we shal somwhat here examine by this occa­sion, noting first two poynts to this purpose.

[Page 83]The first, that the miracles of S. Thomas 2 dōne presently after his death had a circūstāce annexed vnto them,Tvvo espe­cial confide­rations in the miracles of S. Thom. which greatly confir­meth their certainty, to wit, that they brought with them the publike reproof of one of the greatest kings that day in Christendome (if not the greatest of all) which was king Henry the second, by whose fault he was put to death & who laboured with all his power for auoy­ding that infamy eyther to suppresse or im­proue the miracles that fel out. And who knoweth not what the force and fauour of such a Prince may do in such a cause, and yet was the multitude and euidency of S. Thom. his miracles, such, as they brake through all obstacles that the king could put against them, and so conquered himself also as he finally yeilded and went to his sepulcher, wept & did pennance, as by all authors is euident. This then is the first poynt of consideration in this affayre.

The second is that this matter of miracles 3 is an ordinary common place, wherin the scurrility of incredulous and scoffing heretiks doth enlarge it self very much and often, it being a subiect sit for that purpose; seing that miracles being aboue the common course of natural things must needs haue some dispro­portion or improbability in the sense of ordi­nary vnderstanding, that measureth all by that they see with their eyes; and then being set forth also with mocks and moes in the most ridiculous sort that malice can deuise, and the [Page] improbability increased commonly by such lying circumstances as are added by the repor­ter, it serueth to entertayne and make mery the incredulous, ignorant or light of hart, and to bring them by litle aed litle to trust or be­leeue nothing that passeth sense or excedeth the reach of euery particular mannes reason.

4 These two obseruations then being premi­sed in this matter, vve shal passe to examine, what our vnbeleeuing knight bringeth in to discredit miracles. And first to beginne with­all, and to make some path and preamble to the infidelity which heere he meaneth to teach, he alleadgeth vs an old prouerbe (as he calleth it) which for more credit he setteth downe in different letter.VVastvvord. Pag. 58. That many are wor­shipped for Saints in heauen, whose soules are burning in hel. And for this in his margent he quoteth ex Auentino, Ex Auentino but Auentinus his works and storie being verie great, why did he not quote the book, chapter or place: For though, Auentinus be not of much credit with Catholikes in his historie, yet might we haue examined vpon what occasion, and in what sense he said it, for that in some sense it may be somwhat true, and yet help nothing Syr F. his cause, nor the infidelity he endeauoureth by his doctryn to establish. For suppose yf that should fal out so, that some christians were deceaued about the particular holines of some persons, who being honored vpon earth for Saints, were none in deed, but rather damned, as it is reported by some that S. Ambrose by reuela­tion [Page 84] discouered that two bodyes which had byn honored by some simple people for mar­tyrs, not to haue byn those martyrs, but rather the bodyes of two malefactors, which suppose it were true, what hurted that the Churche of God or what hindred that the merit and de­uotion of those simple people, that being de­ceaued honored those memories as of special seruants, and saincts of Christ, and receaued (no doubt) the reward of their deuotiō accor­ding to their meaning, and holy intention, & not according to the external error happened in the material obiect,Material er­ror in hono­ring saintes hu [...]e [...]h not the deuout. as yf when Christs body was rysen from the sepulcher, the Iewes had put one of the two theeues bodies there, that were crucified with him, and S. Mary Mag­dalyn, and the rest had annoynted that body thinking it to be Christs, had this think yow diuinished their merit, or made their act su­perstitious, as heretyks cal it?

So as thē this material error litle importeth 5 and consequently the place out of Auentinus (yf it be there) is nothing to the purpose. For auoyding notwithstanding of the which and lyke errors, great care was had in the primitiue Churche that the acts of Martyrs deathes, and burials should be diligently obserued, and di­stinctly cōmitted to wryting, for which cause not only the Bishops themselues were im­ployed therin, euery one in his owne diocesse, but a deacon also vnder euery Bishop,The diligēce of the primi­tiue Churche about Mar­tyrs and S. and a subdeacon vnder euery deacon, and a publyke Notarie vnder euery subdeacon were assigned [Page] to attend to this particular care. And in Rome (for that it was so big, and deuided into 7. re­gions) seauen deacons, and seauen subdeacons with seueral notaries vnder them had this charge, as appeareth in the Romane register ascribed to Damasus in the lyfe of Clement, Damas. Pon­tifical. in vit. Clement. Fab. &c. Fabian, Anteros, Iulius, and other Bishops of Rome. And the-same to haue byn obserued also in the Churche of Millan testifieth Paulinus the Notarie of S. Ambrose Bishop of that cittie, who wryting the lyfe of thesayd sainct, sayth: he was vnder the charge of Castus deacon to gather such things togeather of saincts, Paul. in vita Ambros. &c.

6 And before this agayne Pontius the deacon of S. Cyprian afirmeth that blessed Bishop and Martyr to haue byn so sollicitious in gathering the gests of Martyrs,Pont. Diac in vita Cypria­ni. as he would haue the very dayes exactly noted, in which each one suffred, which S. Cyprian testifieth also himself in his Epistle to the Priests & Deacons of his Churche of Carthage:Ep. Cyprian. ad presb. & Diacon. and of other Bishops before him,Pont ibid. thesayd Potius sayth, that they were so studious in this care, as not only of all Baptised Christians, but also of Catecumeni, if they were mar­tyred, order was giuen to haue their acts written, &c. And this we read also put in practise by many other Churches of the world, as by that of Vienna in Austria by Lions in France by Alexādria in Egypt, and the lyke, as appeareth by their Epistles registred by Eusebius and other wryters.

7 This was the spirit of the ancient primitiue Churche, and the very same diligence by lyke [Page 85] spirit hath byn continued by the Catholyke Churche euer since,The processe needful to Canonizatiō of saincts. not only in the acts and gests of martyrs, but of other holy men also, since martyrdome in great part hath ceased, as may appeare by the long processe, and most diligent examination of hundrethes of wit­nesses by lawful and indifferent iudges ap­poynted, when any man is to be Canonized or declared for holy in the Churche after his death, which thing for more certayntie and lesse partialitie is done by order, and autho­ritie of the highest iudge, and Pastor in spiritual causes, and it is not done but vpon many yeares examination commonly, except the cause be otherwayes made euident to all.

This is the practise of the Cath. Churche, & 8 heere now let S^r. F. or any other wrangler or calumniator equal to himself, tel me, if any meane of trying mēnes merits & holines be to be had in this lyfe, what better, or more indif­ferent way can be taken then this, which is by the highest and most vniuersal Magistrate that we haue in our Churche,Fox-made-saincts not to be compared to Pope-made-saincts wheras amōg them euery particular man (as Ihon Fox for exāple) maketh saincts, and vnmaketh them at his pleasure, and putting them downe in his Ca­lender in great red letters for martyrs, or confessors or in black lesser letters for lesser saincts as he thinketh best without any other examination, or approbration of superior au­thority, and that which is most ridiculous of all he careth not of what fayth or religiō they were of among themselues so they were con­trarie [Page] in any one part to the Catholykes, yea though they were different and opposite one to another,A notorious rabble of martyrs. as Barnes, Hierome, & Carret, burned in one fyre; or that they held twise as many opinions against him as with him, as Ihon Husse of whom I haue spoken before, & many others: or that they were not martyred at all but dyed in their beds, as Fox himself confesseth of Ihon wickliff; or that they de­nied his religion at their death as is euident of Thomas Bilney: or that they denied, or blas­phemed Christ himself as Coubridge; or that they were mad in his iudgement, as Colyns burned with his dog, and the lyke, of all which I shal say a word or two in order to the end that yow may see the certayntie and good order which these men haue in canonising their saincts.

9 Robert Barnes an Augustine Fryar, Tho­mas Gerrat, and William Ierome Apostata Priests were burned together in one fyre, in Smithfeild the 30. of Iuly in the yeare 1540. as Ihon Stow, D. Sanders, and others do put it downe, though Fox in his Calender doth agree with neither of them in yeare moneth nor day, but putteth them in his Calender about the midst of Octobre 1539.Barnes, He­rome & Ge­rat. These three were ful contrary one to another in matter of Religion especially about the most important artycles of the real presence, Barnes being an earnest Lutheran, and zealous defender of the real presence, as both Fox, act. & Mon. p. 1097. Fox and Ibid. p. 9 [...]7. an. 1536. Tindal do testifie of him, and the other two no lesse ve­hement [Page 86] Zwingliās against the same doctrine as their examination doth testifie set downe by Fox himself, and yet did they all three pro­test at the fyar that they neuer held error or heresy in their lyues:Fox. p. 1 [...]93. col. 2. n. 86. For thus Ihon Fox wryteth. Those 3. good saincts of God the This is con­trarie to him selfe in his calendar. 30. of Iuly were brought together from the tower to Smythfeild, where they preparing themselues for the fier, D. Barnes thus began. ‘God I take to record I neuer to my knowledge taught any erronious doctrine, but only those things which scripture led me vnto, and that in my sermons I neuer maynteyned any error &c.’ Barnes his protestation at the fyer. Thus wryteth Fox of him and alloweth wel therof: so that if this man did erre (as in the articles of the real presence Fox wil not deny) then did the scripture lead him ther­vnto, & yet wil not he or Syr F. graunt that he or any man els can take hurt by reading of scriptures.

Wel but what did the other two his op­posite 10 mates? did they protest nothing? yes I trow,Fox, ibid. pag. 1094. col 2. for thus wryteth Fox: The lyke con­fession made Hierome, and Gerrat professing their belief as the tyme would suffer, wherby the people might vnderstand, that there was no cause, nor error in their fayth, wherfore iustly they ought to be condemned protesting that they denied nothing that was eyther in the old or new Testament set foorth by their soueraygne Lord the King whom they prayed the Lord long to continue, &c. Lo heere a contrary protestation for their con­trary [Page] belief founded also in scriptures espe­cially in the K. Byble. And how can Ihon Fox now ioyne these togeather, calling them those three good Saincts of God, and making them all three martyrs, but as Sampson ioyned his foxes tailes.

11 And because in this last protestation there is mention of their praying for the king yow must vnderstand that they being in hope (as it seemed) of some pardon euen at the fire, flattered the king extremely, and one of them hauing exhorted the people greatly to obey and follow the king in all things, at length wryteth thus: yea I say further that yf the king should command yow any thing against Gods law, Barnes ibid. apud Fox, pag. 1094. col. 2. yf it be in your power to resist him yow may not do it. Lo what a spirit of a good saint this is, that tea­cheth kings to haue power aboue God, but when he saw that the pardon came not, he sent certayne messages to the king by the sheriff there present wherof the first was, that he and his new fellowes the new-gos­pellers had made his Maiestie a whole king, wheras he was but halfe a king before (being not head of the churche nor of the cleargy of his realme) a thing (saith he) that neuer any of his Maiesties ancestors had be­fore.

12 Behold what a benefit this was, the like wherof was bestowed by them vpon monks and friars as appeareth by a lamentable letter of Friar Peter Martyr wrytten from Oxford to Syr Iohn Cheke. Hovv these nevv prea­chers make vvhole kings and vvhole f [...]iars of half ones. King Edwards schoolmaster, wherin the old man complayneth pittifully [Page 87] that his woman the nunne being dead whome he called his wife, he was but dimidiatus homo half a man: so as Barnes and his companions giuing wiues to monks and friars, and spiri­tual primacy to kings and princes by their new doctrine, they made aswel friars whole men of half as whole kings of half kings. And thus much of these.

There followeth Iohn Husse, of whome I 13 sayd, that he held more opinions against the protestants,Iohn Husse. then with them, which is euident by the articles of his doctrine, yet extant, and authors that haue wrytten of him, wherof we haue spoken sufficiently before in this Cap. 3.en­counter; and yet is he put in Iohn Fox his ca­lender for a solemne martyr in red letters vpō the second day of May.

And the like I might also shew of the VVal­denses,14 Albigenses, Pauperes de Lugduno, and many other base and desperate heretiks which Iohn Fox in his protestation to the whole churche of England doth allow for saints of his faith,Fox protest. pag. 10. wheras notwithstanding they held many more things against him then with him, and some so beastly, that they are not to be named.

As for Iohn VVickcliff there needeth no dis­pute 15 or other proof then Iohn Fox himself and his owne testimony:Iohn VVic­kliffe. Fox. pag. 411.412.413. &c. For he confesseth that he died in Lincolneshire in his owne be­nefice and bed and yet he putteth him in his calender for a martyr the 2. day of Ian­uary in fayre red letters saying thus: Iohn [Page] VVickcliff preacher and martyr.

16 As touching Thomas Bilney, Tho. Bilney. Syr Tho. More in his preface before his confutation of Tyn­dales answere doth proue largely by many witnesses and euident demonstrations, that he hauing recanted publikely certayn here­syes of Luther,Thom. More in p [...]aefat. ad Tyndal pag. [...]49. which for a tyme he had held (which Iohn Fox also confesseth) and falling agayne afterward into relapse was condem­ned and burned, but before his burning he re­canted againe, and confirmed the same at the fire, was confessed; heard masse deuoutly, de­syred absolution vpon his knees from the ex­communication layd vpon him, and finally receyued the B. sacrament, as a true Catholike and so died. About which later recantation al­beit Iohn Fox would seme to wrangle som­what, yet saith he:Fox pag. 920 col. 2. admit he did so, being a man of a timerous conscience not fully resolued touching that matter of the Churche, &c. And then againe. It is not impossible but that Bilney might both heare masse and receyue the sacrament, for in that matter it may be he was not resolued otherwise, &c. Neyther do I fynd in all the articles against him, that he was charged with any opinion against the masse or sacrament, which makes me think that he was yet therin ignorant, &c. Thus answereth Fox about Thom. Bilney, gran­ting him as yow se not to haue byn fully and in all points of his religion, yet he setteth him downe in his calender for a special martyr of his Churche in great red letters vpon the tēth day of March, saying Thomas Bilney martyr. Whervpon I would aske Iohn Fox how he [Page 88] defendeth the second verse of S. Athanasius his creed cōfirmed in the first councel of Nice, that except a man do keep the whole entyre Catho­like faith, In Symbol. S. Athanal. he shal perish without all doubt eternally. Thomas Bilney did not hold all Foxes reli­g [...]on by his owne confession, and how then [...]oth he put him in his calender for a martyr of his Churche.

As for VVilliam Coubridge, whome we gaue 17 for an instance of Fox his martyrs that blas­phemed Christ,VVill. Cou­bridge. his articles are extant which he confessed openly by publike register vnder the B. of Lincolne in the yeare of Christ 1539. as Fox counteth them.Blasphemous articles of Coubridg. Of which articles the 7. is this, that Christ was not the redeemer but the de [...]eyuer of the world; and the 8. I esteemed (saith he) the word Christ,Apud Alanū Capum dial. 6 p. 623. as a filthy word, and therfore did blot it out of my books whersoeuer I found it. And the tenth: I affirmed and wrote, that all those which bel [...]eued in the name of Christ are damned to hel, &c.

Thus do relate the registers, but what 18 saith Iohn Fox?Fox, p 1033. col. 1 n 79. Coubridge (saith he) being mad and besides his right senses was condemned by Long­land C. of Lincolne, and comitted to the fire by him to be burnt at Oxford, &c. So saith Fox, but he con­cealeth one thing which is: that Coubridge his cause was sent by the bishop to the L. Crom­wel Vicegerent to the king at this tyme in spiritual affayres, and that by his voice also he was condemned; as Alanus Copus in the foresaid place doth shew. But how soeuer this was, yf it be true that VVilliam Coubridge was mad and besides his senses (as Fox here for his excuse [Page] deuiseth) how happeneth it then that himself maketh him a martyr of his Churche & doth register him vnder that name and worthy title in his ecclesiastical calender vpon the 10. of October an. 1539. Is not this to make mad and furious men pillers of his new Churche?

19 The last was one Collyns, of whome Fox wryteth thus:Colyns and his dog. Fox. Ibid. 1033. Colyns being besides his wits & seing the priest holding vp the host ouer his head at masse, & shewing it to the people he in like man­ner counterfetting the priest took vp a litle dog by the legs, & held him ouer his head shewing him also to the people, for which he was brought to examina­tion & condemned to the fyre, &c. This is the nar­ratiō of Fox himself touching Colyns, whome notwithstanding this, he setteth downe for a solemne martyr vpō the foresaid 10. of Octo­ber in the yeare of our Lord 1538. So as heer no man can deny, nor Fox himself doth, but that he maketh diuers wicked blasphemous and distracted men to be of his martyrs & pa­trōs in heauen; so with mad men I leaue him among whome we may wel account him, whether we consider his wit or wrytings.

20 Wel then to returne to our purpose treated I would aske our aduersaryes which of these two wayes hath more indifferency or reason in it, to haue saints declared by publike inqui­sition, examination and sentence, or by euery particular mannes iudgment and fancy at his pleasure.

21 And thus much is spoken of this matter by occasiō of Syr F. his Pope-made saints (which [Page 89] must needs haue more authority then Fox-made-saints) and as for his prophane propo­sition (which he calleth a prouerb) to wit, that many be worshipped in heauen for saincts that are damned in hel:Pag. 59. he would draw all mennes harts into mistrust and contempt of all saints, their miracles and memories, I thought good to enlarge my self somwhat in this behalf, to shew the conformity of spirit betwene aun­cient christians & vs, for the care towards saincts, and our equal proceeding conforme to all reason and piety in declaring the holy­nes of saincts, & the contrary mad fantastical dealing of heretiks doing or vndoing of their owne heads what each mā for the tyme thin­keth best. For imagine yow yf the Lutherans in Germany should haue the vewing or cor­recting of Iohn Fox his martyrologe, how many saints would they strike out and cast to the dunghil which he hath put in, and pain­ted out in the highest degree? And the like would Brownists and Puritans doe. Nothing then is certayne among these goodfellowes, and so let vs leaue them, for this is the diuels drift by discrediting some to cal all in que­stion.

But now to return to the Archbishop S.22 Thomas, whome in particular our knight de­syreth to discredit, let vs heare what he sayth. First he cyteth out of Caesarius a monk, as he calleth him;Pag. 59. That there was a question made in Paris after S. Thom. his death whether he were damned or saued, Roger the Norman (who had byn a special [Page] enimy to the Archbishop) saying that he was dāned, for that heresisted his King, & Peter a Parisian, that was chaunter of that Churche holding that he was a true martyr. This story out of Caesarius is in part true, but yet powdered with so many fal­sities & corruptions, partly by S^r. F. and partly by Iohn Fox (from whome he took it) as it is a world to see, and sheweth euidently that a mā may beleeue nothing they alleadge, further then he seeth it with his eyes.

23 For first they alleadge this author quite against his owne meaning,A notorious corruption of Caesarius by Fox and Syr F. for he being a German and lyuing about Colonia at the same tyme or soone after the Archb. was murdered, he proueth his great holines among other things by his great and many miracles, for that is the title of his book, Illustrum miraculorum & historiarum memorabilium libri, 12. Twelue books of famous miracles and histories hap­pened in the world. And hauing spoken of other countryes and men, at length he com­meth to treat of S. Tho. of Canterbury in these words: Beatus Thomas, &c. Blessed, Thomas Bishop of Canterbury who in our tyme hath fought for the liberty o [...] the Churche vnto death did not shine by any miracles during the tyme of his persecution, Caesar. Heis­le [...]bac. lib. 2. c. 69. dialog. and after his slaughter there hath byn much disputing, seme saying that he was damned as a traytor of the King­dome, and others that he was a martyr as defendor of the Churche. And the same questiō was disputed also in Paris among the masters, for M. Roger swore that he was worthie of death albeit not such a death as he had, iudging the blessed mānes constancy to be a contumacy. [Page 90] On the other side M. Peter chantor affirmed vpon his oath that he wus a worthie martyr of God, and slayne sor the liberty of his Churche. These mens questions (or controuersies) Christ hath now dissolued, hauing glorified him with many and great myracles.

These are the true words of Caesarius trans­lated 24 out of Latyn, and if we wil see the fals­hood both of Fox & his scholler S^r. F. in allea­ging this one litle text only, it shal not be amisse to set it downe heere as it is found in Fox himself, first in Latyn and then in English. Thus thē Fox alleadgeth Caesarius his words: Quaestio Paris [...]is inter magistros rentilata suit virum damnatus an saluatus esset ille Thomas: Fox pag. 204. col. 2. nu. 40. dixerat Ro­ge [...]us tunc Normannus fuisse illū morte ac damnatione dignum, quod contumax esset in Dei ministrum Regem Pro [...]ulit contra Petrus Can [...]or Parisiensis, quod signa saluationis & magnae sanctitatis essent eius miracula, & quod martyrium probasset Eccles. causa, pro qua mortem subierat, &c. ‘Thus do Fox and S^r. F. al­leadge his latyn woords which in English are these:Fox doth Falsly all [...]adg Cesarius. There was a question mooued among the maisters or doctors of Paris, whether that Thomas were saued or damned: Roger then a norman, sayd that he was worthie death & damnation for that he was so obstinate against Gods minister the King, Peter Cantor a Pa­risian came out to the contrary, saying that his miracles were great signes and tokens of his saluation, and also of great holynes, affirming moreouer, that the cause of the Churche did allow and confirme his martyrdome, for the which he died. Thus farre Fox.’

[Page] 25 And then immediatly he adioyneth this continuance of his speech. And thus haue yow the iudgment, and c [...]nsure of the schoole of Paris tou­ching this question for the taynting of Thom. Becket. And yet as you see it was but the altercation of two men, the one a Norman (as Fox saith) subiect at that tyme to the king of England, & the other a Parisian subiect to the king of France, who in reason may seeme more in­different for that he was not interessed on any side. Yet with what face can Fox out of these words affirme, that here was giuen the iudg­ment and censure of all the Vniuersity of Paris, seing it was but an altercation of two priuate men only. Who discouereth not heer the impudent false humor of Fox in calling it the determination of the Vniuersity of Paris?

26 But let vs now returne to examine the no­torious abusing of this short authority by Fox and his scholler Syr F. First they cut of (as yow see by the text it self before set downe in English verbatim) the whole beginning and ending of the authors speech,Many cor­ruptions of Caesarius both in latyn &c English. which do com­prehend the ful purpose and meaning of his narration, with his whole iudgment of the controuersy, which is such dishonest dealing as may be in abusing any author. And after this Fox choosing to put downe the text for more credits sake in the latyn tongue, first he should haue put his very owne words as yow know, which he hath not done, but hath ad­ded, altered, and taken away so much as he thought good for his purpose, making his [Page 91] reader notwithstanding beleeue, that they were the very woords of the author, seing he putteth downe first the latyn and then the English in a different letter. But yet he that shal examine, and compare text with text, he shal fynd added first the whole sentence, virum damnatus an saluatus esset ille Thomas, Then dixerat Rogerius tunc Normannus; thirdly, quod contumax esset in Dei ministrum, reg [...]m. Fourthly is added the word (damnatione) which is not in Caesarius. Fifthly, quod signa saluationis & magnae sanctitatis essent eius miracula, is not in the authors text, sixtly also the words, quod martyrium probas­set Ecclesiae causa. Caesarius hath them not.

All these words and sentences therfore are 27 foisted in by Iohn Fox euen in latin which make the more part or very neare, of the whole text by him cited. He cutteth of (be­sides the beginning and ending before men­tioned) these words following: first of Roger, who though he affirmed him to be worthy of death, yet he addeth etsi non tali yet not of such a death as he had, which words Iohn Fox cōcealeth, as he doth also the words im­mediatly following of Caesarius: beati viri constā ­tiam, iudicans contumaciam; iudging the holy mannes constācy to be contumacy. After this Fox leaueth out those words pro libertate Eccle­siae tru [...]idatum, that he was slaine for the libertie of his Churche, but especially those that im­mediatly follow contayning the authors con­clusion of all, which are these: quorum quaestio­nem Christus soluit, cùm multis & magnis miraculis [Page] illum glorificauit, whose question (or contro­uersy) Christ hath dissolued, in that he hath glorifyed him with many and great mi­racles.

28 Thus wrote Caesarius, soone after S. Thom. his martyrdome. And now by this one exam­ple of playne forgery and cosenage, and by these few lynes so corrupted peruerted and altered, the reader may imagine, what infinite falshood is to be found in Fox his huge vo­lume according to this accōpt. In which vpon my conscience (and some trial also) I do think there is scarse any one story truly rela­ted in all parts in that monstrous huge book. And yet yow must mark also that Syr F. doth not cyte so much as Iohn Fox for this allega­tion out of Caesarius neyther any author be­sides,False dealing in both hāds betvvene the Maister and scholler. least the falshood should be found. And so much for this poynt.

29 Yow haue hard what falsifications & for­geryes haue byn vsed,Diuers vvayes deuise [...] by haeretiks to disc edit mi­racles. to make authors to speak some euil against this blessed Saint. Now when that cannot stand, but that God testified his holines with so many and famous miracles, as Caesarius liuing in that tyme, and so many others before, eye witnesses, do testifie; consider whether the impiety of restlesse he­retykes doth rush. They deuise diuers wayes how to delude or discredit all miracles, and thereby also these of S. Thomas. And first Iohn Fox deuiseth two, saying, that yow may answere, For pag. 204. col. 2. nu. 70. that eyther they were not wrought at all, but deuised and forged by fryars and monks: or yf they were [Page 92] wrought in deed, it was not by the power of God, but of the [...]iuel and his deceauing spirit. Which later way he taketh from the Iewes, who as yow wel remember not being able to deny the miracles wrought by Christ, obiected vnto him that he did them by the power of Satan and cast out di­uels by the hands not of God but of Belsebub. Math 24. Marc. 22. And to these two wayes of euasion Syr F. as a good scholler hath added a third, which is: that many of these miracles might be done by natural power and meanes, though hidden to the ignorant.

And now tel me (gentle Reader) what mi­racles 30 of Christ and his Apostles may not be brought in question and made doubtful by some of these 3. means. And consider I beseech thee) whether the spirit of heretyks doth lead a sensual mannes vnderstanding; Is it not to doubt of all? For what more certainty haue I, or can any man haue of the auncient miracles of the primatiue Churche, then that diuers vertuous and learned authors do wryte them, who lyued in the same tymes when the things were done? and when they would haue byn contradicted (no doubt) by all the world, yf they had byn false or forged, as none euer of S. Tho. were called in question by any author of ancient tyme, so farre as we vnderstand.

Againe I would haue thee consider (good 31 reader) attentiuely with thy self,VVhich is the better spirit to be­leeue or dis­credit mira­cles. which is the better spirit, more pious and more secure, ey­ther to scoff at miracles, and extraordinary work [...] done by God, and to seek reasons to discredit them, as Protestants do, or to enclyne [Page] rather to beleeue them, or at least wayes quietly to let them passe with pious humility, thinking that God can do these and greater matters to his glory, and hath done for and by his seruants. And consequently whether they be true or false the matter not being apparent to praise God for that which is reported of his workes, rather then to scoff therat, which is the true spirit of Catholike men, who do not make euery one of these miracles matter of their beleef, nor yet on the contrary side do runne to the proud or contentious spirit of condemning all, or calling euery thing in con­trouersy with contempt, wheras in temporal matters also they beleeue many things vpon lesse authority and witnesses.

32 And surely yf we cōsider the whole course of scripture we shal fynd pious credulity to be much more secure and comended,Credulity commended in scriptu­res. then diffi­dence, distrust, or incredulity, and that also about miracles.Mar. 16. Ioan. 12. For why was S. Mary Magda­len so much commended before others but for that she was more prone then the rest to be­leeue the miracle of Christs resurrectiō, when it was told her? And why was S. Thomas so much reprehended by Chryst, when he said, noli esse incredulus, Ioan. 20. sed fidelis. Be not thou incre­dulous but faithful, but for that he would not beleeue the miracle of Christs apparition, and entrance when the dores were shut, related vnto him by others? And why was S. Peter reprehended by Christ when he said,Math. 14. modicae fi­d [...]i quare dubitasti? but for that he doubted in his [Page] miracle vpon the going [...] why did Christ generally [...] to all the Apostles togeather [...] took his leaue of them, but for that as t [...] E­uangelist specifieth, they had not giuen cre­dit so easily to such as had reported the strāge miracle of his resurrection to them? Finally it is said of charity omnia credit, and of incredu­lous people.1. Cor. 1 [...]. Non fecit ibi virtutes multas propter in­credulitatem corum. Math. 1 [...]. Christ did not many mira­cles there, because of the peoples incredulity. And againe.Collos. [...]. Venit ira Dei super filios incredulitatis. The wrath of God, commeth downe vpon the children of incredulity, and many other suche places to this purpos which for breuitie wee pretermit.

Now whether Protestāts or Catholiks be 33 giuen more to this quality of incredulity in matters of miracles, all the world seeth. It is reported that some yeares since, a certayne learned man comming among a crue of Pro­testants that did scoffe merily at miracles,A Story of lesting at mi­racles. he told them pleasantly, that he had fallen of late vpon a certayne book of ancient monkes in the primatiue Churche, wherin were ma­ny strange miracles wrought, which he said he was in great doubt whether he might be­leeue or no, and desyred to haue there opi­nion; and they prayed him to recount some of them,Strange [...] ­racles. and so he did, saying: That the first was of a certayne poor man, cutting downe 1 wood, the head or iron of whose hatcher, fal­ling into a great deep water, he cryed to a [Page] [...] was neere, and he [...] though it were of [...] from the bottome, and swymne to [...]m againe.

34 At this story all began to laugh hartily. 2 And then he told another, that a certayne man being dead and buryed, by chaunce in a place, where a certaine holy monke or friar had byn buried before, as soone as the dead body touched the monks bones, he turned to lyfe againe.

3 Then he told them further, that a certayne poor woman, which was wont to giue milk to monks, one day had but a litle panne ful of milk left, and the monks would needs eat it, but she said that she had no more for her­selfe. Then they told her, she should haue the more for their eating of that, and so they did eat it, & after the womman found more milk in her daitry, then euer before. This being heard increased the pastime.

35 After this he told yet more incredible tales, 4 as that one monkes mule talked to him vpon 5 the way. And that diuers monks coming to a great ryuer when they could not passe, one of them made a bridge with his cloak or cool. 6 And that one of them falling into the water, was deuoured by a fish but shortly after got­ten 7 out againe of the fishes belly. And that one of these monks hearing that one of his frends was sick, took of his girdle and sent it to him, which touching the sick, presently he 8 was wel. And that other sick people of in­curable [Page] diseases comm [...]g [...] monks, and putting them [...] shaddowes, were presently [...] diseases.

When all these things were told, much iesting their was, and some said they were prety tales, and some other of a more hoat and zealous protestant spirit entred into in­dignation, saying that this was abhominable superstition, and folly to beleeue these tales, or suffer them in wryting. Wherat the man that had told them was forced for his owne defence, to shew that all he had recounted was wrytten in the holy scripture, changing a litle the names of persons,Explication of the for­mer mira­cles. which he had done to the end they should not presently discouer him. And so he declared that the first of his examples was taken out of the 1 book of Kings, where is recounted of the head of an hatchet made swymne by the pro­phet Elizeus the 4. book of kings 6. Chapter.

The second of the dead man raysed by tou­ching 37 Elizeus his bones, is in the same book & 2 13. Chapter. The third of increasing the 3 milk is expressed in the same book and chapter, by increasing the oyle of the poor woman of Sarepta. The fourth, of the talk 4 which the monke hath with his mule, is ve­ryfied in the speech of Balaam his asse, in the book of Numbers 22. chapter. The fifth of 5 passing of many monks through a great riuer, by help of a monks cloak, is shewed in Elias his fact, in the 4. book of Kings 2. chapter. [Page] [...] by a fish, and gotten [...] in Ionas, chap. 2. The [...] from sending a girdle to heale a to [...], is the fact of S. Paul, recounted by S. Luke, Act. 19. And the last, of men cured by standing only in the shaddow of other men, is testified by the same Euangelist. Act. 5.

38 And so we see that by iesting at monks mi­racles as also of bishops, and other godly men, that are recorded to haue wrought such wō ­derful works in Christs Churche by the same power and vertue of their master as the for­mer saints did, these scorners come to deryde also and cal in doubt the miracles of all ages as wel of the primatiue Churche, as of later tymes, for that there is no other reason of be­leeuing them of those dayes, but only the te­stimony of the Churche in that tyme and of graue wryters therin. The like wherof we haue for witnesses of those of S^r. Thomas, which our heretical English spirits of these dayes do so malitiously deryde contemne and iest at. But with mad men there is no dispu­ting, and so to their phrensy of heresy I leaue them.

39 And yet if I thought they weare cureable of this phrensy,The aunciēt fathers see­ling & sense about mira­cles of holy Saints. and would heare good coun­sel, I would send them to a treatese or two of S. Ambrose, as also of some other fathers about this incredulous humour of heretiks in scoffing at miracles wrought by Saints after their deathes, for that S. Ambrose hauing found out by reuelatiō from God the buryed [Page] bodyes of S. Geruasius & [...], and shewed them [...] due honour to be [...] miracles were wrought [...] wherof S. Augustine also was an eye [...] as he testifieth in these words: Tantae gloriae ma [...] tyrum etiam ego testis fui, [...] & [...] uita. vbi Mediolani eran [...] facta miracula noui, &c. Of this so great glory of these martyrs, I was also a witnesse, and knew the miracles to be done when I was at Mil­layne.1 But more largely then the rest doth S. Ambrose himselfe testifie of this matter in a large epistle to his sister Marcellina, Amb [...]e [...] ad Mar [...] ▪ that was a nunne saying: Cognouistis, imò vidistis ip [...]i, multos à daemonijs purgatos, &c. ‘Your selues haue known nay rather yow haue seene many deliue­red of diuels (by the reliques of these martyrs) great numbers also deliuered from their sick­nes, as soone as they had touched with their hands the Saints apparel. Yow haue seene the miracles of old tymes restored and very many made hole, with the very shaddow of these holy bodyes, &c.’ Thus he saith; and then presently prosecuting the same about the de­uotion of the christian people of those dayes he addeth:Amb. ibid. Quanta oraria iactitantur, &c. How many handkerchefes or napkyns were cast vpon these bodyes? how many garments were made medicinable to heale others euen by their very touching of these most holy reliques? All did desyre to touch the very vt­termost parts, and whosoeuer touched was healed. VVe thank thee ô lord Iesus, that in this tyme thou hast [Page] [...] of these holy martyrs, [...] most need such helpes.

[...] from holy Father and doctor to [...] agoe, of the practise of true [...] out christians in his dayes, against the [...]coffing incredulity of Arrians, wherwith he was no lesse troubled, at that tyme, then we are at this day with Lutherans, Caluenists & 38 like faithlesse humors of heretikes, who with thesame spirit scoffe now, as they did then; against whome the said holy father made a sollemne sermon the very next day after the inuention of the bodyes, inueighing against the said Arrians: ‘Qui pertinacia quadam Iudaica at­que haeretica in tanta hominum ac etiam daemonum confessione negarent illos esse martyres, Ambr. serm. 5. de Sanctis. Paulin. in vi­ [...] Ambrosij. detraherent mi­raculis, se (que) calumniarentur, cuius arte ea omnia com­posita esse dicerent. Which Arrians by a certayne Iewish and heretical obstinacy, in so publike confession both of men and diuels, did stil deny that they were martyrs, detracting from their miracles, and calumniating himself (S. Ambrose) and affirming all these things to haue byn deuised by his fraud.’

41 Thus said these heretiks against S. Ambrose and the miracles of S. Geruasius & Protasius, as ours do at this day with the same spirit against those of S. Thom. of Canterbury: And it is to be marked, that Paulinus in the life of S. Am­brose doth note, that only diuels and Arrians did contradict the said miracles, but the Ar­rians more obstinately then the diuels, for that [Page] diuers diuels did [...] holynes of S. [...] cyteth S. [...] But diuers [...], some of the [...] inuaded and [...] by the sa [...] diuels. Which dreadful examples being re­corded, by so ancient and holy men ought to mooue our scoffers and scorners at the works of God in his saints, to beware least for like impiety, they incurre not the like daunger, at leastwise of being giuen ouer to the possession of an inward diuelish spirit much worse both for themselues and others, then the corporal, possession by the wicked fiend; from which God deliuer them. And so we passe on to the third feigned position layd vpon vs by Syr F. with whome we haue dealt aboue in this matter of miracles, for that this minister O. E. seing perhaps his case to be desperate, thought best to leaue him in the lurche, and to say no one word for his help or defence.

[...] GORGED [...] are said [...], or any comming [...] though he co­maund [...] [...]gainst God, and disloy­alties against Princes. CAP. XII.

BVT now (saith the Warder) let vs see his third position, [...] posi­tion. VVardvv. p. 23. that he feigneth to be amōg vs (Catholykes) as a ground of religion: These two irreligious and prophane grounds (saith he) being layd (though yow haue seene that the knight hath layd them as fictions of his owne and not foundations or grounds of ours) they proceed to a third, and set it downe for a popish groūd also, that it was a dangerous and deadly sinne for any man to disobey the Pope and his Clergie in any of their orders inioyned and comaunded, in such reuerence and regard must he and his Cleargie be had, that the mea­nest maspriest coming with authority from him must be obeyed vnder payne of damnation though he com­mand that which is blasphemous before God in chri­stians, and disloyal to men in subiects. Impudent calumniatiō.

2 This is his narration. ‘From which (saith the Warder) yf we separate a manifestly or two with some fond exaggerations (for without this kynd of leuen the poor knight can make no batch) as for example, that the Pope and his Cleargy must be obeyed, though they commaund blas­phemies against God and disloyalty against princes, [Page] which is a [...] disobedience (yf [...] order inioyned by th [...] [...] and the like.’ [...] ouerlashings of the [...] obiecteth is rather [...] religion, then any reproch at all. ‘For in that he saith, we obey the meanest priest as the highest, yf he come with authority of the highest, he sheweth therby that we haue among vs true obediēce and subordination, and that for conscience sake, not respecting so much the person that commaundeth, as him for whome, & in whose name, and authority he comandeth; and ther­in we fulfil the precept of S. Paul.Hebr. 1 [...]. Obedite prae­positis vestris & subiacete eis; ipsi enim peruigilant, quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri. Obey your Prelats, and humble your selues vnto them (he distinguisheth not betwene high and low) for they keep diligent watch ouer your soules, as men that must render account therof to God. And in other places he saith: that this obedience must be with such reuerence, Ephes. [...]. humility and inward affection, as vnto Christ himself, whose sub­stitutes our spiritual Superiors be, though neuer so meane or contemptible in mannes sight.’

Thus it was answered then by the warder 3 and more also added to that purpose out of di­uers places of scriptures. And how replyeth Syr F. now? Can he defend these ouerlashing speeches? Can he shew that any one Cathol. wryter that euer put pen to paper held this most absurd ground,The knight is vrged to aunsvver. that he setteth downe, [Page] [...], when [...] almightie God. [...] vpon him [...] Now he should [...] substantially he [...] proof wherof (saith he) that which your owne men haue wrytten of the infinit power of the Pope may abundantly suffice, na­mely though all the world iudge in any matter against him, yet we ought to stand to the iudgmēt of him, &c. And whosoeuer is not obedient to the lawes of the Churche of Rome, must be denied an heretike, [...] &c. And though he draw infinite soules with him to hel, yet no man may presume to say, why do yow thus? &c.

4 Lo heer (good reader) what maner of proof this knight bringeth. First new asser­tions as idle and doubtful as the first, and cy­theth no one author in the margent where these things are to be found or discussed. And secondly, yf all were true, this proueth the greatnesse only of the Popes authority to edi­ficatiō, not to destruction, to good not to euil, albeit the last point wherin he affirmeth, that no man may say to the Pope, why do yow thus, though he draw infinite soules with him into hel (it being an ordinary comon place, as wel to all wryters and wranglers in their books, as preachers & praters against the Pope in their pulpits) we shal examin the same afterwards towards the end of this Chapter against the minister O.E. for that he vouchsafeth to cyte some au­thor for the same, though falsly and fraudu­lently as yow shal see. Now then let vs heare [Page] how our knigh [...] [...] the premises. [...]

And your holy [...] to tell vs in his [...] mory that Christ [...] Paul, but him that [...] this diuinity we must obey [...] Pope, whatsoeuer Pet [...] and Paul teach vs to the contrary. And this (I hope) is a sufficient iustification of my accusation, &c. Lo how roundly he riddeth himself. But yet note (good reader) 4. points of Syr F. diuinity out of this one sentence with a preface conuenient ther­vnto. [...] kind of [...] His preface consisteth in qualifying the wrytings of D. Harding and M. Iewel calling the former an inuectiue, and the later of blessed memory, wheras all learned men that haue read the same with indifferency (and diuers great protestants also conuerted by that rea­ding) wil and do testifie the contrary, to wit that D. Hardings wryting against Iewel (espe­cially his last book called,D. Hardinges vvorkes a­gainst Iuel. The returne of vntru­thes) was rather a cōuictiue then an inuectiue, leauing M. Iewel with the commendation rather of a lying, then blessed memory. And so I dare auouch that any mā shal find him, who hath tyme learning, store of books, patience & indifferency to read and examin him.

Now then let vs examin the foure points 6 before mentioned wherof the first is his ordi­nary 1 slieght, wherby he alleageth D. Hardings assertion about S. Peter & S. Paul without telling vs where, to the end that the truth of this citation may not be examined, and for that [Page] [...] playing [...] iustly suspect [...] the proposition [...], which is (as [...] of vs now, not [...] [...] sitteth in their chaire: Which if it be to [...] S. Peter & S. Paul being now absent, cannot personally deter­mine all matters as when they were here in earth, but haue left their successors in their place to be obeyed as themselues. Why should this propositiō so much mislike our K^t? Sure I am that he dareth not deny the same or equi­ualēt therof in the magistrats of diuers citties, Princes & tēporal successors. And yf a man for examples sake, should aske him whether God do commaund English men at this day to obey the Queene that now raigneth in matters be­longing to her gouernment, or rather VVilliam Conquerour first founder of this Monarchie, or K. Henry the 8. her Ma^ties. Father? and so in other Princes; as whether the present K. of France be to be obeyed and respected or Hugo Capetus the first founder of his house? No man wil doubt but that present Princes and gouer­nors are to be obeyed.

7 And yf in temporal successors this be to be obserued, why not also in spiritual? Is the K^t. so simple as he seeth not, the cōuenience of this matter? and that gouernours present, and not past are to be repayred vnto for present re­solution and decision of affayres? If God in his Churche had willed men to obey S. Peter [Page] and S. Paul [...] wils & [...] not known [...] expres writings [...] only their epistles [...] world, nor were other [...] go­uernors nor yet wrytings needful: whi [...] yet is most absurd in all mennes sights: for that all causes incident are not determined in S. Peter and S. Paul their epistles, nor can all men read and vnderstand them, and consequently is needful the authority of a present gouernour s [...]tting in their chayre, and hauing thesame authority that they had, which we beleeue to be in the Pope for necessary gouernment of the Churche.

Thirdly then consider the heretical cauil­lation 8 of S^r. Frācis his inference vpon the for­said 3 premises which is this: Ergo he biddeth vs to obey the Pope though he teach contrary to S. Peter and S. Paul. This Doctor Harding sayth not, nor is it necessary, nor doth it follow of the premisses, but only is a wrangling of a contentious he­retical spirit, as euery man may see, and ought diligently to marke for their instruction how to beleeue, and giue credit to those mens argu­ments and illations: Wherfore after all these note the fourth point which is his substantial conclusion: And this (I hope) (sayth he) is a suf­ficient 4 iustification for my accusation. His accusa­tion was as before hath byn heard, that the Pope is to be obeyed, though he command blasphemies against [Page] [...] to h [...]l, and the [...] iustified by [...] at the present [...] chaire [...], and not only [...] man iudge how [...] iustified himself, and his accu [...]a [...]on.

But yet to the end he may seeme to say som­thing to proue that Popes comaund somtymes both blasphemies and disloyalty, he alleadgeth for the first (about blasphemy) certayne peeces of prayers out of Portiphorium vsed vpon the fe­stiual day of S. Thomas of Canterbury Tuper Thoma sanguinem, [...] our pray­ers. &c. which the K^t. to shew himself a good versifier putteth downe in a poeme thus:

And then agayne: opem nobis ò Thoma porrige, &c. O Thomas lend vs thy help, &c. Out of which words, where there is not a spirit of wrangling & calumniation no euil sense can be gathered: For in the former, there is no more blasphemy conteyned, then when the holy prophets did mention the name, faith and merits of Abraham Isaac and Iacob, Psalm. 131. Daniel. 13. and other their holy fathers, therby the sooner to mooue God to respect them.

10 And in that sense may Christians mention also the bloud of S. Thomas and other mar­tyrs shed for his cause, as motiues & inductiōs [Page] to styrre vp his [...] second where [...] vnto to lend vs [...] that he shal do [...] for vs, which [...] [...]n heretical and [...] hatred to Gods Saint [...] it, being a thing most [...] Fathers, and other pious men of all antiquity to vse lyke inuocation to Saints gone to heauē before them, as [...] before I haue [...] shewed by many examples, and might do heer much more, yf I would stand therin. Nor dareth S^r. Frācis, [...] or any heretyke in the world to ioyne issue vpon this point of all holy fathers practise in this behalf, but only are forced to say of them as they do of vs, that it was ignorance, blasphemy or simplicity in them.

And now after this sharp encounter against 11 the naming of the bloud and merits of S. Thomas of Canterbury, the knights choller and pryde mounteth vp to the assault, of a farre higher Saint, which is the mother of God her self, whose sacred conception he taketh hey­nously, that it should be honoured with a se­ueral feast and holy day by Pope Sixtus Quartus: for thus he wryteth.

Sixtus the fourth taketh vp the controuersy betwixt the Franciscans and Dominicks about the conception of the blessed virgin, Pag. 6 [...]. and against manifest scripture, plaine te [...]imony of fathers, and the streame of his owne do­ctors, decreeth her conception, to haue byn without ori­ginal sinne (so taking from Christ his prerogatiue) [Page] [...] the feast of her [...] them for [...] And granting to [...] from the first [...] of the same, as many [...] 4. and Pope Martyn [...] the seruice of Corpus Christi [...], &c.

Thus wryteth our knight wherin if yow fynd him more true & sincere then in his for­mer narrations and assertions it is maruayle, for though somethings be true which heer he relateth, as namely first that Sixtus the fourth took vp the controuersy betweene the Reli­gious of S. Francis and S. Dominiks order about the conception of the blessed virgin, (which is the benefit of hauing one supreme head, a thing not to be found among sectaries) and secondly that he allowed the solemnizing, of a feast vpon that day, and gaue indulgences also, to such as with deuotion and contrition for their sinnes should celebrate or hear di­uine seruice, and this to the encrease of Chri­stian piety, yet are there twice as many other points heer set downe by our knight quite false and forged of himself.

13 For first it is false, that Pope Sixtus, decreed the conception of the blessed virgin to haue byn without original sinne:First vntruth for albeit himself being of S. Francis order before he was Pope, did hold that opinion for more probable that she was conceyued pure from original sinne, yet did he neuer decree the same, but left it [Page] [...]ree for euery [...] he would theri [...] [...] trouble or [...] appeareth by [...] Sixtus, extant in [...] an. 1466. and [...]

The same [...] of Pope [...] Quintus, [...] super specula, wherin referring himself to the former constitution of Sixtus Quartus, & to the councel of Trent. Ses. 5. in the decree of original sinne, the last paragraphe, (where the said constitu­tion of Sixtus is also mētioned and approued. [...].) This constitution of Pius 5. hath these woords: Liberam cuique facul [...]atem relinquentes opinandi huius controuersiae quamlibet partem, prout vel magis piam, [...]el magis probabilem esse indicauerit. Leauing to euery mannes freedome to hold in this cōtro­uersy what opinion he thinketh more godly or more probable. This ordayned Pius 5. withal indifferency though he were of S. Do­miniks order, and nothing different from that which Sixtus 4. of S. Francis order had or­dayned before him. So as hereby is seene the first foul vntruthe of our knight, auouching that Pope Sixtus 4. had decreed the question on the other side.

And of this first followeth the second vn­truth 15 more foul then the former, [...]. Vntruth. if yt may be, where he sayth. That Pope Sixtus excommu­nicateth and condemneth them for heretyks, that were of the other opinion. The plaine opposite and contrary wherof, is set downe in Sixtus his [Page] [...] simili poena [...] asserrere [...] gloriosam [...] to fuisse conceptam [...] mortale; cùm [...] sede decisum: We [...] and censure, all t [...]ose [...] to affirme that those who hold the contrary opinion, [...] to wit that the glorious virgin Mary was conceaued in Ori­ginal sinne, to incurre heresy or mortal sinne therby, [...] seeing that the matter is not yet de­cided by the Roman Churche and Sea Apo­stolyke.

6 In which words we see two points most euident for conuincing the former two fals­hoods of the knight: the one that the Pope himself affirmeth heer, that the matter was not yet decyded by him or the Sea Apostolyk: the secōd, that he was so farre of from excom­municating or condemning for heretyks those that held the contrary opinion to his (as S^r. Francis saith heere he did) that he excommu­nicateth all those, that should hold them for he­retyks, or that they sinned deadly for being of that opinion.

17 And this for the first two vntruthes auou­ched so audaciously by our K^t. other two there are which I wil not stād vpon,The 3. and 4. vntruthes. but remit him to the authors that wryte therof. First that Pope Sixtus decreed this controuersy against manifest scripture, playne testimonies of Fathers, and the streame of his owne Doctors. And secondly, [Page] that he tooks: [...] &c. Let the is est [...] of two [...] the one [...] other to [...] Zuares vpon: [...] 27. and he shal [...] fathers, & Doctorie [...] [...]ere are brought for both sides, which I do auoyd to alleage of purpose in this place in regard of the constitution of Pius quintus, forbidding all wryting of this matter in vulgar tongues to the vnlearned sort, [...] who are not capable of this disputation, amongst which I accoūt S. Frācis for one, howsoeuer he accoūteth of himself, nether doth he only shew himself vnlearned but malignant also, who goeth about to calumniate Pope Sixtus for this fact of great prudence and piety, in decreeing as he did, and not as the false Knight relateth.

And this may be sufficient for this matter,18 for that the grounds & principles of his bab­ling being meerly false and forged, as I now haue shewed, to wit that eyther Pope Sixtus de­fined the question affirmatiuely for our B. Ladies conception out of original sinne or that he excommunicated all that held the contrary opiniō; it must needs follow, that all the inconueniences and obiected blasphemies buylded by him therin as castles in the ayre, must fal and he vnder them: and so we leaue him for the present, and wil passe ouer to his minister, and se what he bringeth, or hath to say also in this affayre.

[...] by the subiects? and how falsly the minister doth behaue himself in all these points. CAP. XIII.

1 WE hauing hitherto seene and beheld how wel our knight hath discharged himself about the former position of obe­dience to Popes and their commandements, we must needs now giue a litle roome also to his champian or Proctor O.E. who vnder­taketh his defence, though somewhat more coldly, and much more impertinently then the knight himself fighteth for himself. You shal see by the issue of the combat, how truly this is spoken.

2 First this minister hauing cited the words. of Syr Francis thus:Pag. 53. That albeit the Pope and his cleargie comaund blasphemies, &c. yet must he be obeyed vpon paine of damnation; he addeth present­ly: and his meaning is most true: not so much de­fending the words as the meaning of the wryter, as though he had had conference with the knight about it. For iustifying of which meaning, he bringeth in this substātial proof: [Page] Iames [...] K. Henry the [...] the popish [...] this, [...] the proof [...] he) in the [...] detestable [...] example of Gods [...] most excellent misteries of Christs [...] &c. and then he quoteth in the [...], the oration of Sixtus Quintus; and la sulma­nante, &c.

But first yf all this were true which is most 3 false and wickedly deuised out of his owne fingers ends,A vayne ri [...] ­culous kind of prouing. and that Sixtus Quintus had sayd, that it was [...] case, and a dreadful exam­ple of [...], for that kings euil beha­uiour, and m [...]rder of the Duke of Guise and his brother the Cardinal after his faith giuen to them to the contrary a litle before, receauing theron the blessed Sacrament: how doth this prooue, that we hold the man, that so disor­derly killed him, for a martyr? But now the rest which he saith: that Sixtus Quintus in the consistory of Cardinals should so much com­mend that act and compare it to the most ex­cellent misteries, of Christes incarnation, and resurrection, &c. is a most shamelesse and he­retical fiction, without all truth or probabili­ty: For what similitude or likenes, hath the killing of the King of France to the misteryes of Christs incarnation and resurrection? or what man is there liuing this day in Rome or [Page] [...] (which was hetherto seene [...] of) to this effect. And yf by la fulmina [...] our minister do meane the excommunication against the king of Nauarre that then was, the ly is euident, for so much as that excommu­nication was set fourth foure yeares at least before the other king was slayne. And by thi [...] yow see how the ministers triumphant de­maund is answered; who after the former i [...]pertinent and forged stuffe set downe asketh: And what hath eyther Parsons the Iesuite or this per­sonate Noddy to obiect against vs in this poynt? Pag. Ibid. Yow haue hard what is obiected: and it seemeth the personate Noddy hath said, and is like to say so muche ere he end this combat, as the ministers nodle wilbe much troubled in an­swering him, and proue himself no perso­nate, but a personal and real noddy.

15 Wel forward yet he goeth to shew that Catholikes hold themselues bound to obey the Pope though he commaund blasphemies against God, About disloyalty to Prin­ces. and disloyalties against Princes. And for the se­cond about princes it is not a matter to be much discussed heere, for that it dependeth of the examination of many causes, and circum­stances, [Page] [...] by which [...] when the [...] to the [...] not. And on [...] as haue byn made [...] our dayes in Fraunce, Germany, [...] Scotland for setting forward of their new ghospel against the wils and commandements of lawful princes; Our minister I am sure wil hardly cōfesse them to be disloyaltyes, though we think they be. And so seing that Prote­stants do allow wel of such disloyalties, when they are in fauour of their owne faction and that we haue shewed in our former Encoun­ter very largely out of their owne words & wrytings,Enc. 1. cap. 6. that no rule of obedience or sub­iection holdeth them, when they mislike the magistrate or his doings, it is malepart sauci­nesse in this prating minister to keep such a doe about disloyaltyes so much defended and practized by themselues, & no wayes appro­ued by vs, but where lawful authority iust cau­ses and other circumstances do make them loyaltyes.

There remayneth then the first poynts 16 about blasphemies.About Blas­phemies. And how (think yow) doth this minister proue that we hold our selues bound to obey the Pope or any priest coming from him, though they should commaund blasphe­myes? Heare his arguments as they ly, his first [Page] [...] obedience [...] this, he [...], to [...] called an [...] subiection to [...]. But to the [...] professe obediēce [...] Vicar and substitute [...] it follow therby that either the Pope wil command them blasphemies or yf he would or could, that they must needes obey him therin, seing their obedience to him is in respect of Christ and for Christ and blas­phemies are against Christ, and this folly is no lesse ridiculous then if one should say (for ex­amples sake) to the Neapolitās at this day, yow professe obedience vnto your Viceroy, as to the king of Spayne himself, ergo if he should command yow treasons against the king yow would obey him; were not this a wise argument trow yow, but now the second is as wise as this. Boniface the eight (saith he) maketh subiection to the Pope to be a matter of Salua­tion. Suppose he do, seing that to obey or diso­bey our Superiors is a matter of saluation or dānatiō by S. Paules expresse words.Rom. 13. But what is this to blasphemies? But heare his thyrd argument: Bellarmine (saith he) maketh it an es­sential point of a Catholike, to be vnder the Pope. This also we graunt. But what inference can be made of this? It followeth further: And such trust haue Papists in his iudgment, concerning matters of faith, that they think he cannot be deceaued. This [Page] also we [...] it of error [...] that it [...] power [...] his Churche [...] assistance of [...] seing Christ [...] able to preforme it, we [...] is this also to blasphemy?

He addeth further:Cap. 17. Pag. 54. Nay if he once [...] or determine any thing, they count it no better then sa­criledge to dispute of his doings. This is exagge­rated, for we cal it not sacrilege, but pryde ra­ther, disobedience, malepartnesse, and other lyke sinnes for inferiors lightly to dispute or examine the doyngs of their Superiors; which among Protestants perhaps is held for a com­mendation and quicknesse of wit; for so this minister determineth the matter presently after,Ibid. saying: VVe are not to beleeue euery thing our Pastors teach, but as farre as they teach the doctrine of Christ Iesus, nor are we absolutely to obey, but when they commaund according to the law. But who shal heer be iudge? or who seeth not that this is a most absurd circle opening the way to all wrā ­gling dispute and disobedience,An absurd proposition about obe­dience. nothing being attributed heer more to the iudgment and authority of Superiors, then to the most vn­quiet spirits and dissentious heads of any in­ferior whatsoeuer.

And finally wholy to disgrace our obediēce 18 to the Pope, he bringeth in that former famous sentence cited by Syr Francis before, and now [Page] [...] all his [...] Pope should [...] an must say [...] why do yow [...] the Pope [...] for proof of [...] margēt out of [...] si Papa distinct, 40. which [...] haue heard omitted to quote [...] [...]nd so had this man done more wisely in my opinion if he had followed the other example, [...] any Popes doings. and not shamed them both by no­ting the place, where their false shifting might be discouered, as now it is lyke to be.

19 For vnderstanding wherof we are first to note that the foresaid sixt Chapter of the de­cretal cyted by him which beginneth:D [...]cret. Part. 1. dist. 40. c. 6. si Papa suae & fraternae salutis negligens deprehenditur, &c. yf the Pope be found negligent of his owne saluation, and of the saluation of his brethren, &c.The sentence of S. Boni­face an En­glish man. This whole chapter or Canon (I say) is taken out of the words (and so it is noted in he decretal it self) of S. Boniface an Englishman (before called Winfrid) first Archbishop in tymes past of Moguntia, Apostle of Germany: & finally a most holy Martyr, who liued vnder Ethelbald King of the Mercians, to whome his most Christian wrytings are extant, about the yeare of Christ 720.Se Iohn Stovv in his Chron. Pag. [...]5. an. 718. And the whole purpose of this Chapter or Canon tendeth to shew the imminent danger of euerlasting damnation to Popes aboue other men, if they liue not care­fully according to their State and degree, and [Page] this sheweth [...] which is this: [...] fraternae salutis est ne [...] that neglecteth [...]. And then [...] is set downe in [...] biles populos caterua [...] [...] gehennae, cum ipso [...] ‘For that an euil Pope doth [...] immunerable people by multitudes, [...] with himself the cheefest bondslane of her [...] there to be punished with him euerlastingly with many strypes.’

Behold heer the Pope nothing at all flat­tered 20 by S. Boniface in this Canon,Playne speech of S. Boniface to all Popes. which Pro­testants do cite for most high flattery towards him. And if all Canonists or Popes themselues did loue flattery so much as this minister, and his mates do make them, they would neuer haue suffered this playne speech to haue byn registred for a Canon of Ecclesiastical decrees, to be seene and read by all the world to all po­sterity. As neyther would they permit the bookes of S. Bernard, de Consideratione ad Eugenium Papam, wherin he putteth both that and all other Popes in due considerations of their owne defects which are willingly read by Protestants. But yet togeather with this play­nesse; doth this holy martyr S. Boniface, as also the other deuout Father S. Bernard, ac­knowledge the Popes prerogatiue also of not being subiect to any mortal mānes iudgmēt in this world, except in matter of apostasie from [Page] [...] culpas [...]stic [...] llus quta cunctos ipse [...] dus nisi deprehendatur [...] may presume to [...] opes faults in this [...] to erre in faith for [...] iudge all other mē [...] no man but by God [...]

[...] [...]nd this is all that heer is said of this mat­ter, which doctrine about the Popes immuni­ty from iudgment in this lyfe, cannot in rea­son mislike Protestants, seing many of them and other their frēdes in their books do grant thesame priuiledge to euery temporal prince in his owne dominion making him so abso­lute both in temporal and spiritual affayres,See tvvo books of Bel­lay named Apologies in [...]rench. as he may not be iudged by any mortal man but only by God himself. And albeit our aduer­saryes do bestirre themselues to inferre fur­ther vpon vs heer then this, partly by the word redarguere, vsed by S boniface, partly by the sentence foysted in by themselues, that no man may say, why do yow so? wher-vpon they do inferre, that we make the Pope not only free from being iudged or condemned, but al­so from being so much as reprehended by any in this lyfe: Yet this is manifestly shewed to be false as wel by the greuous reprehension vsed heere to all euil Popes by S. Boniface him­self, calling them the cheef bondsla [...]es of hel, and by the many like reproofes vsed to thesame effect by the fornamed holy man S. Bernard in [Page] his books of [...] of the ordinary [...] these:

‘Bonifacius martyr [...] possit iudicars, si mu [...] operibus suis, cum [...] & similiter multos [...] non, cùm debeat omn [...] prehendatur, pro cuius [...] cum ipse [...] post Deum, vniuersitas fidelium instantius ore [...]. [...] niface the martyr was demanded whether t [...] Pope might be called to iudgment by any mā, yf he were found negligent and remisse in his office, seing that such a one not only did hurt himself alone, but all his subiects in like ma­ner, and did draw many with him to perdi­tion:VVhat is to be don to euil Popes. Whervnto the martyr answered, no, for that he hath to iudge all others, except he should be found to be an heretike, so as the whole community of Christendome hath to pray for him, and his saluation as head of the Churche vnder God.’

And this is the answere of S. Boniface about the danger of Popes that lyue euil, and attend not to their office as also for their priuiledge and exemption from mannes iudgmēt in this lyfe, except in case of heresy. And finally that faithful people in steed of calling them to iudgement should pray for them, as Supreme magistrates of Christ Churche.

And thus much is in this Canon si Papa, cy­ted 23 by O.E. and no more is there to be found. Wel then yow wil aske perhaps, what is be­come [Page] [...], that albeit [...] soules to hel, yet no [...] do yow so? This our [...] and shew where [...] an obiection [...] and pulpit euery [...] later part is not in [...] els to the sense [...] it. For though in another [...] farre different, [...] of the Canon law, I [...]o find some such words in the glosse, that in some cases no man may exact à reason of the Popes doyngs, when they depend only of his wil and arbitrement, yet are they not spoken to such purpose as here they are alleadged, nor annexed with the former words of drawing infinite soules with him to hel; but appertayning only to a particular case, as namely of free dis­posing or transferring of Churche goods from one Churche to another without obli­gation to yeild reasons for the same, but only his iudgment and wil. The words of the glosse talking of this particular case are these:

24 ‘Licet inferiores iura vnius Ecclesiae in aliam sin [...] certa solennitate transferre non possunt. Gloss. in e [...] ­trau. Apost. Ioan. 2. [...]. tit. 5. c. 2. conti­ [...]et [...]. Papa tamen gaudet plenitudine potestatis, & hoc facere potest, nec est qui audeat dicere, Domine cur ita facis? cùm in ijs quae de iure positiuo sunt, possit pro libito super his dispensare. Albeit inferior Prelats cannot trans­ferre the rights of one particular Churche to another, but by a certaine prescript forme of solemnity appoynted by law, yet the Pope [Page] (being general h [...] Enc. [...] fulnesse of his [...] man, that may be so [...] he doth so? seein [...] [...] are only of [...] uine law) he may [...].’ This is the speech and [...] [...]ohn de Fan [...], in his glosse [...] a certayne canon, the [...] good to examine more at large [...] that by some few examples our contrey [...] may be taught to take heed of these false de­ceauing companions who speak truth in no one point they treat: And mark I pray yow how many sleights and falshoods they haue vsed in this one allegation.

For first of all they peruert the whole mea­ning 25 of S. Boniface speech in the Canon s [...] Papa turning that to flattery, which he wryteth for dreadful admonition and reprehension of euil Popes, as yow haue hard. Then wheras he saith, that euil Popes do draw many to perdition with them; these fellowes do corrupt the whole sense, saying: that yf he should draw infinite, yet no mā must say to him, why do yow s [...]? thirdly they ioyne falsly togeather these two sentences as vttered in one place, and to the self same pur­pose, which are found in two distinct volu­mes of the Canon law, wrytten vpon diffe­rent occasions and grounds, and in different matter, and neyther of them to the sense or meaning for which heer they are alleadged. And this could not be hiddē or vnknowen to [Page] [...] their error [...] of authors is [...] dealing vnchristian, [...] God to giue [...]

[...] HE FOVRTH [...] wherby Catholikes are said [...]se Pardons for their cheefest remedy against all sinnes, wherin the truthe of Catholik doctrine is declared, and the mani­fold falsifications of our heretikes are de­tected. CAP. XIIII.

1 FOR discussion of this fourth forged prin­ciple and maxime obiected by our knight,The fourth [...]ayned posi­tion. for that it is a common pulpit matter among our ministers, wherin they cheefly abuse the simple people, and was the first ground and occasion of their new gospel by Martyn Luther, and for that by the shifting and shuffling re­ply of Syr Francis to that which before was answered by the Wardword it may easily be descryed how litle in substance they haue to say in this poynt of pardons and indulgences, besydes lying, cauilling and calumniation, I meane to stand a litle vpon this poynt. And first to begyn with the former answere and explanation of the warder, which was as fol­loweth.

[Page]There [...] ground or [...] would needs [...] this he setteth [...] wing: And hauing thus [...] out stop to the mark and [...] so hemmed men in, as they [...] escape daunger but by them [...] them, they propounded vnto them a [...] from all daungers (euen when they sinned immediatly against God) which is a pardon from his Hol. and ab­solution from his holy priests. But yf the decrees or or­ [...]inances of the Romish Sinagoge, were transgressed, [...]ardly any mercy could be had.

‘Thus wryteth our knight (saith the War­der)3 yf yow wil beleeue him, but hauing ta­ken him trip in so many falshoods, forgeryes and calumniations before, I presume that the discreet reader, wil giue credit to him and his assertions herafter by waight and measure, looking to his fingers as wel as to his lippes, as men vse to do when they deale with Egip­tians. Now then let vs examine what truth there is in this tale of his.Many caui [...] & falshood [...]. First and formost, who seeth not how egregious a cauil it is to say, that Catholiks by teaching men to obey their Superiors simply, and for conscience sake, and vnder paine of sinne, (as yow haue heird also S. Paul to teach) that therby they bring men into snares, Rom. [...]. or hem them in (as this mās phrase is:) by which argument he may prooue also, that God himself, when he gaue the law to the Iewes, did hem them in to snares of synne, [Page] [...] hemently [...] of his Epistle to [...] a notorious [...] we prescribe of [...] of synne, is [...] greater and more [...] [...] he addeth by a [...] immediatly against God [...] [...] doctrine is cleare [...] poynt, that the Popes and Churches [...], [...] auayle not to remooue mortal sin [...] but only are giuen, where all such sin is al­ready pardoned by contrition and confession and vertue of the Sacrament, and that th [...] remayneth only some temporal punishment, in this or the next lyfe to be remitted Neyther can the Pope pardon the guilt of syn it self by indulgences, or by any other way then by the meanes of the Sacrament of confession & absolution (which Sacrament hath his force of the bloud of Christ) as euery ordinary priest authorized to heare confessions may do the like.’

4 ‘And so thirdly it is great ignorance in our knight, if not malice, or both, to ioyne togea­ther as he doth the Popes pardon, and the ab­solution of his Holy Priests, which haue great difference in this matter for that the pardon stretcheth not to remit syn it self (as hath byn sayd) but only the temporal paynes due vnto syn; after it is remitted. But Priests absolu­tion in the sacrament of confession is sufficiēt to remit any syn, if the penitent be contrite, ac­cording [Page] to commission [...] [...]um remiseritis peccata [...] [...]inueritis retenta sunt. who [...] shalbe forgiuen, and who [...] [...]ayne, shalbe retayned. [...] is a different matter [...] pardon.’

‘Fourthly that the [...] decrees and ordinances of the Catholyke Church (which wickedly he nameth the Ro­mish Synagogue) be more hardly forgiuen among vs, then greater sinnes, and those na­mely that be immediatly committed against God himself, is a shameles slaunder, and neuer taught by any Catholyke man in the world, and so vnworthy to be further refuted.’

Thus farre the Warder in examination and 6 refutation of Syr Francis his follies and fals­hoods,Cath. do [...] ­trine about indulgences. and for perspicuous declaration of [...]ath, doctrine about indulgences, which cō ­sisteth in this,2. Reg. 12. 13. 14. that seing after the guilt of mortal sinne remitted (as for example the murder and adultery of King Dauid remitted by God and signified by the voyce of Nathan the prophet) there remayneth oftētymes some temporal satisfaction and paynes to be borne by him that sinned, for better satisfaction of Gods most exquisite iustice, as we read that the death of Dauids sonne begotten of that adultery, as also the insurrection of his sonne Absalon with other afflictions folowing therof assigned by God for this satisfaction, after the guilt of the forsaid sinne was par­doned, [Page] [...] our Sauiour Christ in his [...] which for the dignity of [...] finite valour, be [...]ides the [...] he did merit vnto vs, [...] of our sinnes as also grace [...] works were infinitely [...] that they were penal, and [...] nothing to satisfie for his owne person, he left in his Churche an infinite treasure of these satisfactory works, to be ap­plyed to satisfie for them, that cānot satisfie for themselues; to which treasures do also ap­pertayne (though in a lower degree) the sa­tisfactory works of his saints done by his grace and vertue more then for their owne persons, they had obligation to do or suffer. Out of which publyke treasure of Christs Churche,The treasure of satisfac­tory vvorks remayning in Christs Churche. Catholyks do hold, that the Bishops, Pastors and gouernoures therof (especially the cheef & supreme Pastor of all) may vpon iust causes and to persons penitent, & otherwayes wel disposed, and not so wel able to satisfie for themselues in these temporal paynes, dispense and distribut spiritual helpes to the assistance and supply of there wants and infirmities.

7 And this is properly that which we cal an indulgence or pardon when any thing is re­mitted or released that was dew to be paid of our parte, in which sense also Esay the Pro­phet vseth the word Indulgēce (though in a more general signification) when talking of Christ he sayth,Esay. 61. that he should be sent praedicare cap­ [...]iuis [...]dulgentiam, to preach Indulgence to them [Page] that were in captiuity, [...] vseth in his gospel, [...] sentence [...] Esay he [...] praedicare captiuis remissio [...] [...] to them that are [...] places though they [...] of all sinnes, as wel [...] nishment thervnto belōg [...] by Christ, yet hath the [...] word indulgence, and applyed the same also by vse to this remission or mitigation only of temporal punishment, remayning after the [...]ternal guilt of mortal sinne is forgiuen by the Sacrament of pennance.

So that heerby we se, that neyther indul­gēces 8 do serue for the remitting of the aeternal guilt,To vvhome indulgence [...] a [...] auailabl [...]. nor are they auayleable to all sorts of men, but to such only as are not in mortal sinne, and otherwyse so piously disposed by deuotion in Gods seruice, as they are capable of this Indulgence, remission and fauour in Gods Churche.

And thus hauing briefly explaned what Catholyks do truly hold about this point (which heretyks wil neuer suffer their rea­ders sincerely to vnderstand) we shal come to examine what S^r. F. replyeth to the discouery of all those cauils and falshoods, wherin the Warder took him trip (they were foure, if yow remember, or wil vouchsafe to look back vpon them) to all which he answereth no one word in particular, but only this in general: VVhat say I more in my accusation (about [Page] [...] knoweth to be true, [...] a general answere it [...] he meaneth I know not, [...] he had a world of [...] he might haue alleaged [...] ours in all this world, [...] one of these foure, [...], which in this place are [...] his charge by the Warder, and so haue saued his honour in this behalf, but ha­uing produced none after so much bragging in his VVatchword, and so much battery in the VVardword, now to come and cry agayne, that he hath a world with him, when the tyme had byn to haue brought some forth; is a pittiful plight for so honorable a knight to see him self in.