The debella­cyon of Sa­lem and Bizance.

THe Debella [...]yon of Salem and Bizans somtime two great townꝭ, which being vnder ye great turke, were by [...]wene Eas [...]er and Michelma [...] last passed, thys present yere of our lord, M.v.C. thyrty [...] with a meruelouse metamor­phosy [...], enchaunted and turned into two englyshe men, by the wonderful inuentyue wytte and wychecrafte o [...] Syr Iohn̄ Some saye the Pacifiar / and so by hym cōuayed hyther in a Dialoge, to defende his dyuysyō, agaynst ye Apology of Syr Thomas More knyght. But now beyng thus bytwene the sayde Mychelmas & Ha­lowentyde nexte ensu [...]e in thys Debellacion va [...]shed: they be fl [...]dde [...]ense and vanyshed, & are [Page ii] bycome two townys agayne / wyth those old names chaūged [...] Salem into Hierusalem and Bizanc [...] into Constantinople / the tone in Grece, y tother in Syria / where they may se them that wyll, & wynne them that can. And if the Pacifier conuaye them hyther agayne, & tenne suche other townys with them, em­batayled in suche dyaloges: [...]yr Thomas More hath vnderta­ken, to put hym selfe in thaduenture alone agaynst them all. But and y [...] he lette them tary styll there [...]he wyll not vtterly forswere it / but he is not mych mynded as yet, age now so cō ­mynge on & warynge all vnwyeldy, to go thider & geue thassaulte, to such well walled townys, wythout some suche lusty company as shalbe some­what lykly to, lepe vp a lytell more lyghtly.

¶The preface. Syr Thomas More to the chrysten readers.

IF any man mer­uayle (as I wene some wyse menne wyll) that euer I wold vouchsaufe to bestow any time about makynge answere to the pacyfyers dyaloge, con­syderynge his faynt & his feble rea­sonyng: I can not in good fayth wel excuse my selfe therin. For as I so­daynly went in hande therwyth, and made it in a breyde: so whā I synnys considered how lytell nede it was, I merueyled myne owne selfe and re­pented to, that I hadde not regarded the boke as it was wurthy, and with­out any one worde let it euyn alone.

¶How be it good reders what one thynge or twayne specyally moued [Page iii] me to make answere to it, and how it happed me to fall in hand therwyth, and to spende and lese a lytell tyme about it, to make the mater the more playne vnto you: that thynge shall I shew you.

¶As soone as myne apologye was ones come out abrode, anone herde I worde that some were very wrothe therwyth. And yet in my mynde had there no man cause, neyther precher, nor pacyfyer, no nor none heretyke neyther. For I hadde but spoken for my selfe, and for good folke, and for the catholyke fayth / without reproch or reprofe to any mannes person, or wyllyng any man any harme yt were wyllyng to mende. And who so were wyllyng to be nought styll, had cause to be wroth wyth hym self you wote well and not with me.

¶But all this wolde not serue me / for very wroth were they wyth me. Howbeit theyr causelesse anger dyd [Page] not gretely greue me. For I was not so farre vnreasonable, as to loke for reasonable myndes in vnreasonable menne.

¶But than herde I shortely that thykke & threfolde the pennys went to wurke, and answeres were a ma­kyng, diuerse, by dyuerse very great cūnyng mē. And of this trayuayle of such great moūtayne hyllys, I herd myche speche made, almoste euery weke: so ferforth that at laste it was tolde me for trouth, that vnto one ly­tell pyece, one greate cunnynge man had made a long answere, of twelue whole shetys of paper, wryten nere to gyther and with a smale hande.

¶But in good fayth I coulde but laugh at that. For as for that pyece, I was very sure that the cūnyngest man that coulde come therto, neyther in tenne shetys nor in tenne querys neyther, wryte as nere as he coulde, sholde neuer answere it well.

[Page iiii]¶For that pyece was the answere yt in myne apalogye I make, as you se there vnto certayne sermons, wherin my dyaloge was towched for wry­tynge agaynst Tyndals false translacyon. And wherin was also defen­ded agaynst my confutacyon, Tyn­dals wyse chapyter, in which agaynst my dyaloge he laboreth to proue that the worde was before the chyrche / & in all his chapyter neuer towcheth ye poynt / and the sermon that defended hym, walketh as wyde as he.

¶It was tolde me as I say that answere was made to that place / and what shyfte there was founde to the remanaunt, that coulde I not here. But to the fyrst poynt I herde saye that there was deuysed, 'that where as I reherse that the precher spake of poysoned brede, I rehersed hym wrong. For he spake but of moulden brede. And this pyece it was tolde me that in yt new answere it was reaso­ned [Page] at length, & set forth very luste [...]y

¶But come the boke abrode onys, I shall sone abate that corage. For fyrst syth he taketh recorde yt he sayd but mouldy brede: yf I brynge wytnesse also that he said poysoned bred, than can his wytnesse stande hym in none other stede, but for to proue for hym that he sayd bothe.

¶Secundly shall I proue that he sayd poysened brede, by such meanes that men shall se by reason, yt though the tother were possyble: yet was it farre vnlykely.

¶Finally shal I ferther proue, that though ye man had sayd not poysened brede but onely moulden brede: yet shall I proue I saye, that as the case stode, that same not poysened brede but moulden brede, was yet for all that a very poysened worde.

¶Heryng therfore that this gaye boke was made of the .xii. shetys of paper, & lacked but ouerloking, & that many mo were ī hand ye shortly shold [Page v] come out: lyke as an husband, whose wife were in her trauayle, herkeneth euery hande whyle, and fayne wold here good tydynges: so syth I so myche herde of so sore trauayle of so many, so cunnynge, aboute dyuerse answeres, I longed of theyr longe laboure to se some good spede, and some of those fayre babes borne that they trauayled on.

¶And when these great hyllys had thus trauailed longe, from the weke after Ester tyll as myche afore Myche [...]mas: the good houre came on as god wold, ye one was broughte a bed, with sore labour at laste deliuered of a dede mouse. The moder is yet but grene good soule, & hath nede of good kepyng: women wote what caudell serueth agaynst her after throwes.

¶Now after that the boke was out and came into myne handes / and that I sawe the maner and the fashyon therof: two thynges onely moued me to wryte and medle wyth yt.

[Page]One that I sawe therin folowed and pursewed, the selfe same shrew­ed malicyouse intent that was purposed in his fyrst boke of diuysyon / that is to wyt to make thordynaryes with fere of slaunder and oloquye, seue theyr dutyes vndone and lette here­tyques alone / and ouer that wyth an euyl newe chaunge of good old law­es, labour to putte heretyques in corage, and therby decaye the fayth.

¶This was in dede the very spe­cyall poynte that made me wryte yet agayne. And yet founde I so lytle reason in hys reasonynge, that me thought yt sholde not nede. For thys wyste I very well, that who so euer had wyt, and wold conferre and compare to gether, the wordes of hys answere wyth the wordes of myne Apologye, sholde sone perceyue that hys answeres were euyn very dull and dede.

¶But thenne was there a nother [Page vi] thynge that I consydered in yt / whyche poynte vnprouyded for, myghte soon deceyue the reader. For all be yt the pacyfyer hath in some places put in myne owne wordes where yt pleased hym: yet hathe he for the moste parte vsed a prety crafte, to mysse reherse my mater and leue my wordes oute. Ye and besydes this, the man hath in some places lefte oute some of his owne, & mysse rehersed them / to make the reader wene, that in the reprouynge theym, I hadde wryten wronge.

¶Now had I supposed to remedy those thingꝭ, & make him an answere in thre or foure leues, wyth onely poyntynge the reader to the places, wyth wrytynge in what lefe he shold fynde the mater. For the wordꝭ ones redde: the trouthe sholde shewe yt selfe.

¶But whyle I was thus mynded and went there about: hys answere [Page] in his dialoge had foūden such a way wyth walkynge to & fro, kepynge no maner order, and therwyth makynge me seke so longe for some one place, yt I saw wel I shold soner answere hym all new, then fynde out for ma­ny thynges the place that I sholde seke for.

¶I made therfore in few days [...] this answere that you se. And some suche places yet as I had happed to finde, I haue remytted the reader vnto in myne apologye / where for his redye findyng, I haue nōbred him [...]the lefe. And yet haue I for some folke done somwhat more to. For I se wel surely many men are nowe a dayes so delycate in readynge, and so lothe to labour, that they fare in other bokes as womē fare with theyr primer, which though they be content to saye some tyme ye fyftene psalmys, & ouer yt the psalmys of the passyon to, yf they fynde them al fayre lette out in order [Page vii] at length: yet wyll they rather leue theym all vn sayde, then turne backe to seke theym out in other partyes of theyr prymer.

¶And therfore leste some readers myghte happe in this boke to do the same: some places of thapologye myche necessarye and not longe, that wyth myche sekynge I fortuned to fynd out, to ease the reders labour, & make all open vnto hym, I haue put in also, into myne answere here. Ye and yet ouer thys in the thynges of moste weyghte, I haue put into thys boke hys owne wordes to. And so shall you good readers wythout any payne of sekynge, haue all the mate [...] playn and open afore your yien, that ye shal well se that I loue the lyght, no lesse thenne thys pacyfyer wolde fayne walke in the darke. For as the darke is in this mater all hys auauntage: euen so ys veryly the lyghte in lyke wyse myne.

[Page]And where as there are some that cō mende his answere, for the compendyouse breuite therof and shortnesse: I nothinge therin enuye the mannes prayse. For lyke as no man can make a shorter course then he that lacketh both hys legges: so cā no man make a shorter boke than he that lacketh as wel wordes as mater. And yet when by the places conferred well to ge­ther, the feblenesse of his answere shall appere: then shall he lese the prayse of shortnesse to. For when yt shall wel be sene, yt he sayth nothyng to the purpose: then shall eu [...]ry wise man thynke hys boke to longe by all to gether. And that ye may wel per­ceyue that so it is in dede, let vs now leue of the preface and fall vnto the mater.

The fyrste chapyter.

IN his fyrste chapyter he toucheth thre thinges. One that I haue deceyued hys hope, in that I haue not in myne apologye dyuysed some conuenyent wayes to reforme and redresse the dyuysyon betwene the temporaltye and the spyrytualty, to whyche poynte I wyll answere after in the touchyng of hys seconde chapyter. The tother poynt is, that syth he neuer found any faute in any worke of myne, of whyche for other [...]ettis he neuer redde none: he merueleth mych therfore that I make such obieccyon agaynste his / and namely in that worke whych I wolde name an apologye, whyche name sygnyfyeth as he sayth an answere or a de­fence.

[Page]¶Now where this good man declareth what thynge an Apologye ys, and sayth that yt is an answere or a defence / for whych cause he the more meruaileth, that I wold in that boke wryte agaynste any treatyse of hys, who neuer hadde any thynge wryten against any worke of myn / as though that therfore my wrytynge agaynste his worke wold in no wise agre with the name of my boke: I myghte an­swere hym that the touchynge of his boke, was but an incident as I shew in the .100. lefe of my sayde boke, and not my pryncypall mater / and therfore of many noughty thynges I touche there but a fewe, and suche as were in no wyse to be dissembled.

But now meruaile I myche more, wherfore he shold so meruayle, that I wold in ye worke which I name an answere or a defence, wryte agaynst his worke which nothynge wrote a­gaynst myn. For if the thynge that I [Page ix] wryte agaynst his wordes, be an an­swere or a defence in dede: thenne though it be not a defēce for my self, yet is the cause of all his meruayle gone. For in that boke that is called myne apologye, yt is not requyred by ye nature of ye name, that yt be any answere or defence for myne owne selfe at all: but if suffyceth that yt be of myne owne makynge an answere or defence for some other.

And as these titles Caluicium Sinccii, Moria Erasmi, be names conue­nyent for those bokes of theyres, though the maters in those bokes sy­gnifyed by those names do not onely pertein vnto Sinecius & Erasmus, or peraduenture to neyther of theym both at al: so may my boke well bere the name of an answere or a defence, yf it be an answere or a defence made by me, though yt were all made for other folke, and not one pyece therof made for me.

[Page]¶So is yt now that myne apology is an answere and a defence, not one­ly for my formare bokes, wherin the new brethern began to fynde certayn fa [...]tes / but ouer that in the self same parte wherin I touche the boke of dyuysyon, it is an answere and a de­fence for many good worshyppefull folke, agaynst the malycyouse slaunder and obloquye so generally sette forth, with so many salse some sayes, in that sedycyouse boke.

¶The selfe same pyece ys also an answere and a defence, of the very good olde and longe approued law­es, bothe of thys realme and of the whole corps of chrystendome / which lawes thys pacyfyer in his boke of dyuysyon, to thencoragynge of heretyques and parell of the catholyque faythe, wyth warme wordes & colde reasons oppugneth.

¶And finally for as myche as ma­ny good vertuouse folke began vpō [Page x] that yll boke of dyuysyon to haue a ryght euyl opinyon of the maker him selfe `whom I for his playne confessyon of the trew faith, toke & take yet for a mā good & catholike: therfore I in many places of myne apology, lay the faute fro the man hym self, vnto some wyly shrewes that deceyued hym. And so was myne apologye an answere also an a defence, for ye person of the pacyfyer hym selfe.

&And where he goeth about nowe for to confute yt: there ys not in all the remanaunt of hys answere one pyece that any thyng appeyreth any poynte of myne Apologye. How be yt of trouthe in thys poynte he goeth moste nere me. For thys an­swere hathe he made in suche maner wyse, that I shall haue nowe myche more a do then I than hadde, to make any wyse man wene that euer hym selfe ment well.

[Page]And yet wyll I not leue yt so / but styll wyll putte it from hym to some false wyly shrewes, though the man do as he dothe, saye contrarye therto hym selfe.

¶And the more the man denieth that thynge hym selfe: the more he ma­keth yt lykely to be trew. For when in the thynges that so playne appere so nought, he rather taketh the mater all whole vppon hym, then suffreth any parte to be layed from hym, but if the man haue an importune pryde, as by goddes grace he hath not: elles is yt a sure sygne and a good token, that he is suche a good symple soule as soone may be deceyued / while we se that his wit serueth hym no better, but that he wolde rather appere malycyouse then vnwyse.

¶But nowe that I haue proued hym that the name of Apologye, may serue very well for euery pyece of my boke: nowe wyll I somwhat [Page xi] se how the maters of his boke agree well wyth the name therof. I mean not here hys boke of dyuysyon. For of that boke the name and the mater agree to gether well / but I meane of hys newe boke that we be nowe in hande wyth, whyche boke as ap­pereth in the fyrste fronte of the fyrst lefe ys named Salem and Bizance. And therin of an hundred and syx leues (for so many be in the boke) there are scante fully fyftene, that any thynge agree wyth the name.

¶Nowe yf he wyll saye that the communycacyon betwene Salem and Bizance, ys but a bye mater besyde, and that all the remanaunt bytwene theyre talkynges, ys the very boke: thanne ys yt worse / for then hathe hys booke neuer a name at all.

¶More ouer yf yt so were: thenne sholde none of the thre laste chapy­ters [Page] bere the names that they do / that is to wytte the .xxii. the .xxiii. and the .xxiiii. chapyter / but lyke wyse as he calleth the begynnyng of theyr communycacyon byfore hys mater, an introduccyon: so sholde he haue called those thre chapyters after his mater, an extraduccyon.

¶ And yet I wote not well what I maye saye therof. For in the be­gynnynge of the boke, theyre fyrste communycacyon ys called an intro­duccyon / and so ys it intyteled vpon the leuys. And yet in the very ende of that introduccyon byfore the fyrst chapyter, the man sayeth hym selfe in the persone of Bizance / that he hathe made as yet none introduccy­on at all. What he meaneth by thys can I not tell / but yf he meane to make men wene that Salem and Bizance were two Englyshe men in dede, and spake those wordes them selfe wythout any worde of hys.

[Page xii]¶But nowe bycause he sheweth hym selfe so connynge in greke wor­des, that vppon thys worde apo­logye, he fyndeth the afore sayde faute wyth myne apology, as though I were ouersene and obserued not ye nature of an Apology: lette vs se howe well hym selfe that in the be­gynnynge calleth hys booke a dya­loge, obserueth the nature and propertye of a dyaloge.

¶In ye thyrd lefe when Salē sheweth him self desyrouse to se the pacifyers answere: Bizance answereth: I shall cause yt to be wryten here after in this dyaloge worde for worde, as yt is come to my handes / and then thou shalt wyth good wyll haue yt. And thou shalt vnderstande that hys answere begynneth at the nexte chapyter hereafter ensuynge, and con­tynueth to the place where I shall shewe the that yt endeth.

¶Consyder good readers that this introduccyon he doth not bryng in, as a rehersal of a cōmunicacyon hadde byfore, but as a communycacyon present. And thenne lette hym shewe me where euer he hathe herde in hys [Page] lyfe any two men in theyre talkynge to gether, diuyde theyr present cōmunycacyon into chapytres. This is a poynte not onely so farre fro the na­ture of a dialoge, but also from al reason, that a very chylde wolde not I wene haue handeled the thynge so chyldyshely

¶Also that Bizāce telleth Salem that the pacyfyers answere shall be wryten into theyr dyaloge, that is to wyt to theyr communycacyon: who sawe euer the lyke? who sawe euer any thyng wryten into a communycacyon, and wrytyng planted in among wordes spoken.

¶And what reason hath yt to tell hym where aboute in theyr commu­nycacyon, the pacifyers wordes shal begynne and where they shall ende [...] as though Salem talkyng wyth. Bizance, hadde not the wyt to perceyue when Bizance speketh hym self and when he redeth hym the pacyfyers [Page xiii] wordes wryten.

¶Also what a straunge monstrose beste maketh Bizance to Salem the pacifiers answere, whyle he maketh as thoughe Salem coulde neyther perceyue the hed nor the tayle, but yf hym selfe poynted hym to them both with a stycke

More ouer where as Bizance sayth he wyll wryte it in to theyr dialoge, yt is to wyt into theyr present [...] talkynge as soone as it cometh to his handes, so that at that word he had it not yet / and than he wryteth it in, euyn by and by, and neyther goeth any where to fette it, nor maketh any man come thyther to hym to bryng it: is not this proprely deuysed?

¶Than stand they both styll there as they fyrste mete / and that is in the strete by lykelyhed (for there folke most comenly mete, that mete at ad­uenture as they do) and there is all the answere perused / the readynge [Page] wherof standeth them at ye lest foure or fyue howres I trow. How be it there I was a lytell ouersene. For they stande not there styll aboute the readynge / but there stande they styll both twayne all the whyle that By­zance is as you se into theyr talkynge and cōmunicacyō wrytynge it. And that is but yf Bizance wryte fast, I warraunt the wurke of a weke. Now than at the wekes ende whan all the .xxi. chapyters are wryten: Bizance in the .xxii. chapyter geueth Salem warnynge, that there is the answere of the pacyfyer ended. And this was by ye pacifier fole prudently deuysed. For ellys wolde Salem wene that theyr owne talkynge toge­ther in the tother thre chapyters by mouth, had ben styll nothynge ellys but onely Bizances wrytynge / and els wold also Salem haue thought that his owne wordes of exhortacy ō agaynst the great turke, and his own [Page xiiii] rehersynge of that exposycyon of the apocalyps, had bene styll the pacy­fyers wordꝭ agaynst myne apology.

¶And finally in the very ende to shew that he could write, not in onely prose: he endeth all the whole booke in this wyse with a gloryouse ryme, And thus the gloryonse trynite, haue in his kepyng bothe the and me / and maketh Bizance praye for no mo but for theym two, after the maner of the good manne [...]ryme, a mustarde maker in Cam­brydge, yt was wont to pray for hym self and his wyfe & his chyld, & grace to make good mustarde & no more.

¶And thus you se good readers yt where this man is so cūning in greke wordꝭ, yt he can shortely fynd ye fawt where I fayle in ye nature of an apo­logye: hym selfe in his own dyaloge so well cōserueth the propertye of a dialoge, & expresseth it so naturally, yt it could neuer be done more natural­ly, not though he that wrote it were euyn a very naturall in dede.

[Page]¶But where he semeth to haue meruayled whan he redde myne apology, that I wolde make obieccyons agaynst his wurke, whyle he neuer wrote any thynge agaynste no booke of myne: in good fayth yf he had, I wolde neuer haue bene the more hasty, but somwhat peraduenture ye lesse, leste it myghte haue semed that some desyre of reuengynge myne owne dyspleasure, had excyted me therto / where as nowe no worldely profyte growynge to me thereby, there is mych lesse cause for any good man to thynke, that I wolde take the labour to wryte agaynst a wurke I wyst not whose, but yf that it had at the leste wyse semed to my selfe, that there were suche thynges therin as god wold geue me thāke, to geue mē warnynge to be well ware of them.

¶And where he sayeth he wyll not touch euery thyng partycularly, but take an other order all out of order in [Page xv] answerynge therunto: I can not let him ī his own boke to vse what order that beste maye serue his purpose. But me thought and yet thynke, that I my selfe toke a very playne open way, whan the chapyters of his whiche I wold answere to, I perused al waye euery thynge in order. Whiche order while he foloweth not with me: how you shall fynd it, your self shall good reders iudge vpon ye ende. But yet in the meane whyle at the fyrste face, it semeth not that wyth lepynge out of order, he meaneth to make you the mater very playne.

¶Nor all, he sayth he wyll not an­swere neyther / for auoydynge of te­dyousnes. And of trouth yf he haue (as he semeth to signyfye) any other bysynesse: I thynke it be somwhat tedyouse to hym to answere all to gether.

¶Finally where he saith that he supposeth [Page] to make it appere as by hys answeres, and by his consideracyons and his declaracyons, that myne ob­ieccyons are lytell to be pondered: fyrste for his argumentes made a­gaynste the lawes, wherby the fayth is preserued, and heresyes kept vn­der, those argumentes all his answe­res wyll neuer be able to mayntayne And as to ye remanaunt, in good faith the better that he maye make you his innocent mynde appere, the gladder a greate deale wyll I be therof / nor nothynge purpose I therin by thys present booke to do ferther, than to make you clerely perceyue, that how well so euer hym selfe here declare hys good menyng, my selfe was not causeles there moued to fynd fawte in his wrytynge.

The .ii. chapyter.

IN the .ii. chapyter begynnynge in the fyfth lefe, he bryngeth forth ye fyrste consyderacyō, whiche is that I in the 89. lefe of myne a­pology confesse that murmur and discensyon agaynst the clergye was thā all redy farre gone onwarde in hys vnhappy iourney / & that afterwarde in the .106. lefe of the same boke, I bryng in a very darke sentēce, wher­by it appereth that I mene that the dyspleasure & grudge bytwene them is in dede neyther so greate as he maketh it / and yet growen to so greate as it is, but euyn now of late. But who so loke there in that place, shall I suppose fynde it nothynge darke / but yf it be suche a man as lyste not to vnderstande it.

[Page]¶And where I saye there, that this dyuysion such as it is, whyche is no thynge such as this man maketh it, is not growen to so greate as it is, but synnys that Tyndalys bookes and Frythys, and frere Barons, bygan to go abrode: therin he wold seme to saye the contrary, & byddeth me loke better vppon the mater, and I shall fynde it otherwyse. And in dede with better lokyng theron, I fynd it som­what otherwyse. For I fynde ye tyme of such encreace as I speke of, mych shorter than I there assygne, & that by a greate deale. For it was growē the greater by thoccasyon of the selfe same boke of the diuysyon, though y maker as hym selfe sayth and as I truste to, intended it not of purpose. And therfore where he saith that sith I confesse that there was diuysyon at the tyme of the makynge of myne apologye, it appereth that I haue no mynde to haue it ceaced, bycause that [Page xvii] I seke not out the causes and deuise the remedyes: veryly good readers I neuer toke & accōpted my self for a man mete & able to make a reforma­cyon, of such two great partes as the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye of this whole realme be. And veryly yf I knewe some suche great causes as thys man setteth forth for trewe, whych I knowe for false / and that I than knewe the wayes to reforme them to: I wolde vse other wayes towarde it, than sedycyouse slaunde­rouse bookes. For as I haue expressely declared in myne apologye, ney­ther neuer dyd I, nor neuer entende to do, put out abrode in prente vnder colour of reformacyon, fawtes that were hatefull and odyouse to here, eyther of the tone parte or of the to­ther / and specyally so many at onys, as yf they were all trewe, were not all lykely to be remedyed at ones / but the more parte for the whyle re­maynynge [Page] lytell remedyed, shold [...] but make eyther parte to the other more odyouse, and bothe partes more infamouse, amonge suche other (yf any suche any where be) as wold be gladde and reioyce to here mych euyl spoken of them bothe.

¶And thys I saye all though that all were trewe. And now wolde I mych lesse vse that maner in makyng rehersall of those thynges, wherof many be false and vntrew, and many other also very tryfeles / & the very chyefe thynges that thys pacyfyer desyreth to haue reformed, be lawes all redy well made, whyche he wold haue made wurse. For where they haue ben by wyse men well deuysed for the repressyng of heresyes, some by perleament in thys realme, some by the generall counsayle of chry­stendome: those deuyseth he so to be chaunged now, as the chaunge why­che he desyreth, though by goddes [Page xviii] grace he desyreth not that it so shold, yet out of dowte in dede sholde turne to thencoragynge of heretykes and encreace of heresyes, wyth the my­nysshement and decaye of the catho­lyke chrysten fayth. wherupon wold not fayle whych almyghty god kepe from vs, his greuouse indygnacyon vpon vs. And therfore god kepe vs from suche reformacyons.

¶Now to laye to me therfore as a greate fawte, that I blame his boke in those vntrew some sayes, that vnder colour of ceacynge dyuysyon, ex­cyte and set forth dyuysyon, but yf my selfe coulde ceace it. Whan suche bookes make it: is myche lyke as yf he wold say that there ought no man to blame hym that wolde burne vp a nother mannes howse, but he that wolde buylde it agayne.

¶And therfore with thys good rea­son of his, be putteth me in remem­braunce of an answere, that a man of [Page] myne made ones myche after the same fashyon. I had sometyme one with me called Clyffe, a man as wel knowen as mayster Henry Paten­son. This Clyffe hadde bene many yeres mad / but age had taken from hym the rage, so that he was metely well waxen harmlesse among folke. In to Clyffes hed came there some tyme in his madnesse such imagyna­cyons agaynst images, as these here­tykes haue in theyr sadnesse. For lyke as some of them whych after fledde and ranne awaye, and some fell to thefte and were caught, pulled down of late vpō Londō brydge thinmage of the blessed martyr saint Thomas: so Clyffe vpon the same brydge vppon a tyme fyll in talkynge vnto an image of our blessed lady / and after suche blasphemyes as ye deuyll putte than in hys mouth, and now a dayes bloweth out by ye mouthes of many heretykes, whyche seme they neuer [Page xix] so sad, be yet more madde than he: he sette hande vppon the chylde in her arme and there brake of ye necke. And afterwarde whan honest men, dwellers vppon the brydge, came home to myne howse and there bla­med Clyffe before me, and asked hym wherfore he brake of the chyl­dys necke in our ladys arme: whan Clyffe hadde herde them, he began to loke well and erenestly vpon thē / and lyke a man of sadnesse and gra­uyte, he asked theym, tell me [...]hys amonge you there, haue you not yet sett on hys hed agayne? No ꝙ they we can not. No ꝙ Clyffe by ye masse it is the more shame for you. Why speke you to me of it than?

¶ And euyn thus answereth me now thys good man / whyche where hys sedycyouse some sayes set forth diuysyō, and breke the chyldys necke rekeneth it a shame for me to fynde any fawte wyth hym for ye brekynge [Page] but yf my selfe coulde glew it toge­ther agayne.

¶And therfore where he sayth that I sholde haue proued, that all the causes that he layeth as causes of dyuysyon, be no causes of dyuysyon, or ellys I sholde haue deuysed the remedyes: albe it I haue answered hym therin all redy, yet thys I saye therin ferther, that I haue proued wel & clerely, yt the very chyef cause yt he sayeth, is layd very vntrewly / that is to wytte the mysse handelyng the people to theyr destruccyon vp­pon suspycyon of heresye. Whyche cause yf it were as trewe as yt ys false, were so weyghty, that it were well wurthy to be layde for a mater of dyuysyon. And whyle it is not trewe: yet by suche kookes beynge blowen aboute in euery parte of the realme for trewe, maye well mysse happe to make a dyuysyon / whyle [Page xx] the dwellers in euery quarter aboute by credence geuen to the booke, may at the fyrste face wene, that though it be not so there as they dwell them selfe, yet wene I saye that it were so in al other places. Wherof though they shall by leysoure perceyue the contrary wyth serche: yet they that aske no ferther questyon, shall by­leue it styll. And so a rumour onys begonne and spredde abrode, ys not after soone remoued

¶Nowe as for hys other causes of thys dyuysyon: dyuerse [...] I haue towched and shewed suffycyentely that they be not suffycyent. But as for me to peruse hys whole booke of dyuysyon thorow, was no parte of my purpose. For yf those thyn­ges that I dyd towche hadde semed to me tollerable: I wolde in good faythe haue bene lothe to haue tow­ched theym eyther.

[Page]In whyche whyle with hys conside­racyons and declaracyons he goeth about now to shew that he than ment none harme: I wyll not therin mych hynder hym, but be gladde rather to forther hym in thexcuse of hys me­nynge and so dyd I as I haue sayd euyn in myne apologye to. But though I be glad to excuse his own mynde in the menyng: yet can I not excuse his vnwyse folowynge of false wyly counsayle in the doynge.

The .iii. chapyter.

THe .iii. chapyter cō teynyng hys secōd consyderacyō, rede and cōsyder it who so lyste / for I can se nothynge in it to be consydered by me. For in effecte in conteyneth no thynge ellys, but that he wolde the [Page xxi] clergye shold as myche as they may auoyde all accasyon of murmure and grudge / of the temporaltye to­warde them, but yf it be pharysaycal grudge ye and though the dede that they sholde forbere were good / in whych poynt bycause that one poynt wolde waxe a songe worke, I wyll fall in no dyspycyons. But in as farforth as he geueth any man good counsayle and wysheth all thynge well: so farforth shall he and I not varye / but and he call me to hym, I wyll syt and pray for yt wyth hym.

¶But yet where he sayth in thende of the chapiter, that I endeuour my selfe very myche, to oppresse al them that wyll shew suche thynges of the spyrytualtye: in dede some suche as haue made suche lyes, I haue tolde yt theym. But as for any oppressyon let hym proue one, and let hym call that one .xx. And if he can ꝓue none, as I wote well he cā not: then good [Page] reders let hym be beleued therafter.

¶More ouer where he sayth that I in my mynde proue yt an intollerable defaute in the people for mysse iud­gynge the clergy, where as I thinke they haue no cause so to do / and that therin. I leue theym, as though all the whole cause and pryncypall de­faute, were in the temporaltye, wherin he sayth that my iugement is farre deceyued: in this poynte good reder he sayth somwhat to me yf he sayde trew. And sure yf he thought that he wrote herein trewe / then wysedome wolde he sholde haue wryten myne owne wordes in. And yf he fered that yt wolde be founden false: then honestye wolde that he sholde haue leste hys owne wordes oute. But veryly good readers and he seke thys seuen yere, he shall in all myne apologye fynde you no suche wor­des of myne. But he shall fynde farre the contrarye. For I do there [Page xxii] I wote well, in suche places as I shewe that men were vnreasonable that wolde take thys thynge or that thynge (suche as I reherse of hys bryngynge forthe) for any reaso­nable cause of dyuysyon: there I saye in those places that the pacyfy­er mysse sayeth the people, and that the people be myche more reasona­ble that to take yt so. And therfore here he belyeth me agayne.

¶And also let hym shewe you forth any one place, in whyche I say that all the whole faute or the pryncypal faute eyther, is in the tēporaltye / and than byleue hym the better in a no­ther mater. And in the meane whyle tyll he brynge it forthe, or ellys that you fynde yt your self: ye may with reason, at the lest wyse in this mater byleue me better thenne hym / and I wil neuer desyre you to byleue me one day lenger. For I haue neyther sayde the pryncypall faute in the tone [Page] nor ye tother. And thus hath he made you of me thre lyes in one chapyter.

The .iiii. chapyter.

IN his .iiii. chapy­ter begynnyng in the .viii. lefe, he fyrst sheweth a diuersyte betwene the sample that I put in ye .94. lefe of myne appologye, of a pacyfyer be­twene a man and hys wyfe, and the thyng that I there resemble it vnto / that is to wytte hys owne boke, that maketh a lyke pacifycacyon betwene the temporaltye and spyrytualtye.

¶But surely the dyfference that he putteth semeth to my pore wyt greatly to a payre his parte. For yf it be as he sayth yt is, that where as the hus­bande wold be loth to heare any euyl spoken of his wyfe, and therfore wil can suche a pacyfyer no thanke, [Page xxiii] that wyll tell hym suche tales of her before his neyghbours: the temporaltye wyll be glad to heare harme spoken of the spyrytualtye: then was yt so myche the worse done, to wryte openly to the temporaltye suche thynges of the spyrytualtye, to fede and nuryshe any suche euyll delyte: or openly to the spyritualtye, beynge as he sayde lyke wyse affectyonate, the fautes of the temporaltye eyther.

Howe be yt I can not in good fayth saye, but yf I shold belye hym, that on that syde wyllyngely he greatly passed his boundes / but of ouersyght vnware, he hath in some thynges slaundered ye temporalty to.

¶Then sheweth he farther wherfore he wrote those thynges in en­glyshe, though Iohn̄ Gerson wrote theym but in laten / wherin to say the trouth, he layeth a cause suffycyent wherfore that Iohn̄ Gerson wrote them in latyne. But whyther he laye [Page] cause suffycyent wherfore hym selfe shold not rather haue let them alone then wryte them in englishe, agaynst the counsayle of Iohn̄ Gerson hym selfe as I touched in myne apology: that I leue your self good reades to cōsyder. For I wil not myche stryue agaynste his excuse. For I greatly shall not nede I thinke, syth al his excuse amounteth to no more, but that he ment that some laye men redynge the prestes fautes in englishe, myght put them in remembraunce to mende them / specially bycause he sayth euen in the same chapiter a litle afore, that the temporaltye so myche delyteth to here of theym.

Thē goth he farther in ye same chapiter / & where as in his boke of the dy­uisyon, he wold haue semed betwene the tēporaltye and the spyrytualtie to haue spoken indifferently, & to haue told them theyr fautes on both parti [...] [...]gally: here in the second syde of the [Page xxiiii] x. lefe, he telleth vs the cause wher­fore he dyd not so, & saith in this wise.

I haue spoken of defautes and abuses in the spyrytualtye, more then of defautes in the temporaltye / bycause the spyrytualte oughte to be the gyders and gyuers of lyghte by theyre doctryne & good exāples to the tēporalty: & if theyr light be derkenes, where shall the temporaltie then fetche theyr lyghter? trewly I wote not where. And I doute that then they both shall walke styl in derkenes. And therfore yt is that Iohn̄ Chrysostome sayth vppon Matthew the xxi. chapyter. That yf prestehode be holle & sound, all the chyrch florysheth: and yf yt be corrupte, the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth also and vanyssheth away. Lette thye therfore as to thys poynt be the fynall conclusyon for thys tyme, that who so euer proueth defautes to be in the temporaltye, he proueth also defautes to reygne in the spyritualty: & therefore the defautes in the temporaltye wyl neuer be auoyded, tyll the defautes in the spyrytualtye be fyrste reformed: and therfore haue I fyrste spoken of some defautes that be in the spyrytualtye.

¶Surely good readers I like wel these wordes. For they be very good & they proue very well, & very trew yt is / nor I ueuer sayd the contrary, but haue in myne apologye playnely sayd the same, yt euery faute in a spyrituall man (though ye thyng were of it self al one, is yet by ye differēce of ye [Page] person, farre worse and more ody [...]ouse both to god and man, then yt ys in a tēporall man. But yet the worse that euery pryuate spyrytuall mānes faute is, so myche is yt ye more harme to dyffame the corps of the spyritualtye openly in the face of the temporaltye, in suche maner as the boke of dyuysyon doth / of whyche I haue pro­ued those that are weyghtye false, and could (yf I wold now lese tyme about yt whyle that that I haue touched ys suffycyent) shewe the substaunce of al the remanaunt to haue lytle substaunce to.

¶And therfore the wordes of saynt Chrysostome whyche he sayeth for his boke, were in part the very cause that made me wryte agaynste hys boke. For surely as saynte Chrysostome sayth, yf the presthed be corrupt, the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth and vanisheth away / whyche is wythoute any questyon very [Page xxv] trouth for though saynt Chrystome had neuer sayde it, our sauyour sayth as myche hym selfe: ye be (sayth he to the clergye) the salte of the erthe, & if the salt waxe ones freshe and we ryshe, wherin shal any thyng be well seasoned? And you be the light of the worlde. And therfore yf the lyghte that ys in the worlde, be darke: howe darke shall then the darkenes be yt selfe?

¶But now say I syth that ye preste­hed beyng corrupted, yt muste nedes folowe that the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth and vanysheth a­waye / and vppon Chrystes wordes yt muste folowe that yf the spyritualtye be nought, the temporaltye muste nedes then be worse than they: ther­uppon I conclude vppon the tother syde agaynste the pacyfyers boke, that syth this realme hath (as god be thanked in dede yt hath) as good & as faithfull temporalty, & (though there [Page] be a fewe false brethern in a great multitude of a trew catholike mē) as hath for ye quantite any other coūtrey cristened, it must nedes, I say folow yt the clergy, though it haue some such false noughtye brethern to, is not in suche sore maner corrupted, as the boke of diuysyon goth about to make mē wene / but as good for theyr part as the temporaltie for theyrs.

¶A therfore in lyke wyse I saye, that vppon the selfe same wordes of saynt Chrysostome and of our sauy­our Chryste: the sayde boke of the dyuysyon in dyffamynge the spyry­tualtie, diffameth the temporaltye myche more / whyche is the thynge that as I sayde semeth me neyther honorable nor profytable, in opē prented bokes, for any englyshe man to do / nor veryly I thynke the maker wold not haue done, yf he then hadde thought so farre.

But now goth he farther and sayth.

And though mayster More can not denye these [Page xxvi] fawtes. (I suppose you haue herde me denye suche as were the chyefe and proued them I wene vntrewe) yet all the amēdemētes that he aleyth in hys Apologye is onely in punyshement of heresyes, as ys s [...] byfore: wherunto he specyally moueth the ordyna­ryes not to be slacke nor the more remysse for fe [...]e [...]f enyll wordes and sclaunder of the people. And yf they be therfore the more [...]lacke in callynge atta­chynge a [...]d examynynge, and farther orderynge of heretyques: he sayeth god wyll not fayle to make fall in theyr neckes the double slaunder of that, fro whens they fled. And in a nother place he moueth the temporaltye to ioyn wyth the spyrytualtye eche with other lonyngly to represse and kepe vnder those vngracyouse folke, by whom he meaneth heretykes Vppon whyche mocyon I shall somwhat shewe my mynde, as hereafter foloweth in the nexte chapyter.

¶Here he complayneth agayn yt I deuyse no remedyes, as though the whole prouysyon for all thynge laye vppon myn hande. I do somewhat for my parte, when I praye god to geue vs al the grace spiritual & tēpo­rall bothe, to kepe well and obserue suche prouysyons as god hathe gy­uen good men the grace to make all redye. For yf we kepe theym well: I wene there are me [...]ely ma­ny made. And yf we breke the olde: [Page] so wil we by likelihed breke these a [...] wel, yt he wold haue me now dyuyse and studye newe. And somewhat I do better for my parte, whyle I la­bour to haue the good olde prouysy­ons kepte, than thys pacyfyer dothe for hys, whyle he laboreth to haue them broken, and namely those law­es that are of ye very beste, and made for the fayth agaynste heresyes.

¶But then laboureth he as me thinketh, to make the bretherne angry with me / and reherseth and inculketh into theyr eares, yt I exhorte both the spyrytualty & the tēporaltye to, those to whome the mater apperteyneth, not to be any thynge the more slacke in repressynge of heresyes, for any fere of infamye.

¶Surely good readers what so euer I wrote in that behalfe: I will requyre euery man to haue yt euyn here / for wryten and repeted agayn. For when we se yt the wordes of his [Page xxvii] wrytynge, whych I haue in myne Apologye rehersed you, how well so euer he ment therin (as I truste he mēt but wel) haue yet yt playn open apparaunce in them, yt they were wel lykely to put such as shold se to the repressyng of heresyes, in doute and fere of infamy, & to be had amōg ye peple as folke suspect of missehādeling good folke and of crueltye: I reken yt the parte of euery good man, that any zele hath to the conseruacyon of the catholyque fayth, to encorage them on the tother side, to the doyeng of theyr dutye therin / and not to sette the respecte of theyr estymacyon a­monge men (whyche yet they shall also mych the better conserue among all the people saue those few that are nought) byfore the sauynge of theyr soules, and kepynge the fauour of god: namely sythe the kepynge of people from heresyes and puttynge the scabbed heretyques oute of the [Page] clene flocke, is one of the specyall thynges that thapostle gaue the bys­shoppe warnynge of. Let hym fynde oute any worde of myne, where with I wolde any harme to any man that wolde amende, and then let hym laye yt to me. And who so euer entendeth neuer to be good: I am wel content that the pacyfyer make hym not my frende.

The fyfth chapytre.

IN the fyfth chapiter he toucheth punyshement of heresyes, & dyuydeth ye mater into foure sortes of people / wherī for as mych as he nothynge sayeth that toucheth me, I let them passe all foure.

¶After those .iiii. sortes perused: [Page xxviii] he speketh of the fyfth, whyche he very ernestly dysprayseth, that are those whyche take and hold contrary wayes / to the trewe fayth in dede. But then in that part he myche misse lyketh in me, bothe that I call them any euyll name, as the noughty bre­therne or heretyque bretherne, and also that I call theym good namys to, as the blessed bretherne and euan gelycall bretherne.

¶And for the fyrst in callynge them any suche euyll names: he sayth I do not as I wolde be done to / as appereth he sayeth in myne apologye. [...] Surely I suppose he maye therin fynde, that I force not what suche as they be call me. And I can wryte no worse worde by theym I wote well, then they wryte many by me.

¶And to as for to geue euyll na­mes to suche folke as are so euyll in dede: lette hym call yt ray­lynge at hys pleasure / but howe [Page] so euer yt be in me. I wote well that some other haue done so, yt yet were no raylours / excepte saynte Poule were a raylour, when he called hys carleshe kepers dogges, & when he called the chyef preste a whyted wal, whych was a spyghtful word amōg them / & except saint Policarpus rayled, when he calleth ye heretike Ma [...] cyon the deuyls eldeste son, & excepte our souyour rayled, when he called ye scribes & the pharysyes hyprocytes.

¶But then yt I cal thē agayn good names: this thynge lo this good man rekeneth a very monstrouse maner, to make theym both good and badde. But this is a mōstre lo of euery mā ny [...] makynge. For so call not I them alone, but ye whole people to, in such maner of spekynge as euery man vseth, whē he calleth one self noughty lad, both a shrewd boy and a good sonne / the tone in the proper symple speche, the tother by the fygure of [Page xxix] ironye or antiphrasys. And by a lyke maner figure saīt Hierome agaynst the olde heretyke Vigilantius, cal­leth hym somtyme Vigilantius, and somtime agayne Dormitantius / and so he calleth that heretyke two con­trary names, as well as I do these.

¶And where he can not te [...] what I mene by the new broched bretherhed: that am I cōtent to tell hym / I mene that they be a barell of poysen, that the deuyll hath late sette abroche, and laboreth by them to poysen other mē.

¶And where he can not bere it, that they beynge suche shold be called by the name of euangelycalles: I well allowe the good mynde of the good man, that he therin sheweth hym self so to bere to the fayth, that it greueth hym to here heretykes called by such a good graciouse name. But he must consyder that it is now, and some ye­res al redy passed hath ben, the name by which they haue bene as cōmenly [Page] called in all the cuntreys catholyke, as by theyr owne very name of here­tyke. And thoccasyon therof grewe fyrst of that that thē self toke y name euangelicall, arrogantly to them self both by theuangelycall lyberty that they pretended, as folke that wolde lyue vnder the gospell and vnder no mannes lawe besyde / & bycause they wolde also byleue nothynge ferther, than ye very scrypture, all which they take now vnder the name of the gos­pell. For ye new lawe they take for nothyng ellys, but for the declaracyon and perfeccyon of the olde.

¶Now whan they had taken thys name comēly vpon them self, the ca­tholikes tellyng them, yt they neyther lyued nor byleued accordynge to the gospell letted not yet to call them by the same name to / & that not to theyr prayse, but to theyr rebuke & shame. And some turned in wrytyng yt name of theyrs in scorne, & in stede of euāgelicos, [Page xxx] wrote thē pseudo euāgelicos.

¶Now yf this man can not bere it, that I call them as the old folke do: though I wolde my selfe leue it for his pleasure, yt wolde make ye wote well but a small chaunge. For other folke wyll call thē styll yet by what name they lyst, and neyther I nor he can lette them.

¶But to thentent he may be some­what the lesse discontent with me, for callynge heretykes by a good name: he shal vnderstande that vpon suche occasyon & such maner, it is no newe begon thyng so to do. For a certayne sorte there were of the heretikes that were ye Manicheis, which were fyrst amonge them selfe called by ye name of Cathari, that is to wyt pure and clene / & afterward the catholikes called thē by ye same name. And so doth saynt Austayne also call theym in his wrytynge. But yet he declareth bothe theyr false heresyes, & theyr se­crete shamefull lyuyng for such, that [Page] though he call them by the name of pure and clene, as we call now these bretherne euangelycall, yet he ment that they were neither pure nor clene in dede, no more than these folke in lyuynge or bylyefe, folow the very gospell in dede.

¶But than cometh he forth vppon me somwhat solempnly with a very foly and with a solempne lye. For lo good readers these are his wordes I warraunt you wyse and trewe.

And now wyll I saye somwhat ferther concernyng thys mater, and that is thys. I meruayle mych, how mayster More durste for offence of hys conscyence, and for drede of the kynges dyspleasure, and of the whole realme, brynge vp such a slaunderouse name in this realme, and put it in prynt, that may lyghtly touche not onely many of the comon people, but also of the greatest of the realme, as well spyrytuall as temporall; yf he and other of hys affynyte ly [...]te to call any of them one of the blessed bretherne, or of the good brethern. And in this poynt it semeth, that he forgate the honour of the realme, whyche he se­med moch to regarde, whan he sayd: he coulde not thynke it to the honour of the realme, that other realmes shuld wene, that the whole clergye of this realme shulde be so farre fallen into the grudge and indygnacyon of the whole temporaltye, as he sayth it is spoken to be in the sayd treatyse, whyce he cal­leth [Page xxxi] the boke of diuisyon: for certaynly it is more dyshonour to the realme, to haue it noysed, that the realme is full of heretykes, than that the temporal­tye grudgeth agaynste the spyrytualty, and so he esheweth and fleeth the lesse sclāder, though it were all true that he sayeth and renneth heedlynge into the greater.

¶And now wyll I saye somewhat ferther concernynge thys mater / and that is thys. I meruayle mych how this man durst for offence of his con­scyence & dyspleasure of god, brynge vp suche a slaunderouse lye vppon me, and wryte it in hys boke, that I sholde wryte in myne apologye, that the realme is full of heretykes.

¶If the case were nowe no better vppon my parte, nor no wurse vpon his, but that in myne apologye there coulde no suche sayenge be founden: what rebuke were it yet vnto hym, yf he were a man openly knowen by name? as now the shame cleueth not on hys chekes, but he soone shaketh it of whyle hys name is not at hys booke. But nowe syth that in myne [Page] apologye I playnely wryte the con­trary: what wordes wyl there serue to saye to thys man the thynges, that he were in this poynt wery wel wor­thy to here.

¶R [...]de good chrysten readers the xlvii. chapyter of myne apology, be­gynnynge in the .260. lefe and there shall you playnely se, that I saye playne the contrary. For where as thys pacyfyer dyd in hys boke of dy­uisyon vnder the name of some other bylye of lykelyhed some of the spy­rytualty than, surmyttynge that they as of polycy noysed that the realme is full of heretykes more than it is in dede / as he now bylyeth me here, surmysynge that I do say the same: ye shall there se that I shewe it to be vnlykely, yt any polytyke spyrytuall man wolde so saye for polycy / syth so to say were for them for the cause that I there shew, very far agaynst good polycy. And there I ferther [Page xxxii] shew, yt some heretykes haue [...]alsely made that noyse, and there I tell for what cause. And afterward ī fo [...] 268. I shew yt for all theyr besy bragyng, they be yet in dede but a few.

¶Now good reades whan I thus haue wryten there in both the places so open and so playne, that the realm is not full of heretykes, nor hath ther in but a few, though y few be in dede ouer many / & growen mo also by ne­glygence in some parte, than there hath bene in some late yeres passed: how may this man fynde in his harte for shame, to wryte in this wyse? and as it were with such authoryte so so­lempnely chekke me falsely, for writyng yt the realm is full, & thā excuse his lyke fawte by myne / & yet in the cōparison make myne the greater to? But now is all the craft of ye comparyson dyscouered, & the glory of that argumēt defaced, whyle you se yt his fawt is trew, & that myne he feyneth & fyndeth not in myn boke, but playn [Page] and expressely the contrary / and that he spynneth that fyne lye without flex, fetchyng it out of his own body as the spider spynneth her cobwebbe. And thus is my fawte fayre wyped awaye, & hys lyeth styll in his necke, and another now layed vnto it.

¶Now as thys was no lytell foly for hym to lese his credence with that openlye, that myght be so soone and so playnely controlled and reproued: so is his fyrst poynt also no lesse foly than that, wherin he merueyleth so mych that I dare for my conscyence, and for dyspleasure of my prynce, & of the whole realme, brynge vp that slaunderouse name in the realme, to call these heretykes the bretherne / consyderynge that it maye lyghtely touche not onely any man of ye comen people, but also of the greatest of the realme, as well spyrytuall as temporall, yf eyther my selfe or any of myn affinite lyste to call them, one of the [Page xxxiii] blessed brethern or of ye good brethern

¶This is forsoth one the most symple sought out foly, that euer I yet sawe set out with hygh wordes so so­lempnely. For fyrst as for to call thē by the name of the bretherne, is no­thynge of my bryngynge vppe, but a worde walkynge in euery mannes mouth (whyche thynge I can not by­leue but thys man wel knoweth hym selfe, as straunge as he maketh the mater) and bygonne by the good blessed bretherne them selfe, as wel ap­pereth vppon theyr owne letters, inough to be shewed at sondry seasōs sent bytwene them.

¶Now touchynge the great fere & perel that he putteth, leste I or some of myne affynyte may slaunder any of the greatest of the realme, yf we lyste to call any suche man one of the good bretherne: the good man maye take his rest I warraunt hym, & shal not nede to breke his slepe therfore. [Page] For fyrst as for myne affynyte is not very great. For I haue none affinyte but as I thynke hym selfe hath and euery other mā, that is to wyt eyther by gossepred or by maryage / excepte he mene to call all the trewe catholy­kes myne affynyte, and all the tother his owne. And than whyche waye so euer he mene, a sewde slaunderouse worde were as lykely to happen in one of his affinite as in one of myne. And as for my self the pacifyer hym selfe is (as hys some sayes shewe) somwhat more set vppon an appe­tyte of slawnderynge than am I, whych bere a lytell more reuerence to the great men of the realme, spyri­tuall and temporall bothe, and more honest mynd vnto the small all, than wrongfully to dyffame eyther great or small, by callynge eyther the tone or the tother, any of ye blessed byched new broched brethe [...]hed / excepte o­nely such as by theyr own open wry­tynges, [Page xxxiiii] or by theyr open wordes, be playnly proued heretykes.

¶But yet cōsider wel good reders, what a wyse reason thys is yt he bryngeth forth. For what parell is there of such slaunder, more by this name of the good bretherne than by the to­ther name of heretykes? is not ye olde name of heretykes, as slaunderouse as this new name of the blessed bre­thern [...] what name can this good man deuyse vs hym selfe to call them by, in whyche name the same parell of slaunder may not fall as well as in this? Men may by thys wyse reason call thē by no name at al, for fere lest I or myne affinite might yf we lifte, call not onely any of the people, but also ye grettest lordys both spyrituall and temporall, by the same name, and so brynge them in slaunder. For the slawnder is all one what so euer the name be, whan the thynge is all one that is ment and signifyed therby.

¶And this man vseth hym selfe in [Page] this place therfore, very circūspecte­ly for this poynte in this chapyter, where he speketh of heretykes after his .iiii. sortys of folke before. For he calleth them there by no name at all hym selfe, but sayth of ye fourth sort: These be the wurst sorte of people before all other, excepte onely an other sorte of people, whiche syre Thomas More in hys apologye calleth somtyme desperate wreches, sometyme starke heretykes, and somtyme the blessed bretherne, and sometyme the noughty bretherne &c. So that this good mā him self here, lyke a true faythfull man, affirmeth them nought / & such & so nought, as ther be none wurse. But name (as it semeth) for fere of occasyō of slaun­der, he durst here none call them hym selfe but sayth they be they, whome I call thus and thus.

¶Well I wyl make no vow therof as yet / but I wyll peraduenture at a leysour here after vppon better ad uisement, vse the same cyrcūspeccyō and polycye that I lerne of his en­sample here / and whan I speke of [Page xxxv] suche maner folke, geue thē no name at all my selfe / but for a token that men maye wytte whome I mene, I shall saye those felowes I mene yt saint Poule perdy calleth heretykes so / &that be all they that obstinately holde any selfe mynded opynyon, contrary to the doctryne that the comen knowen catholyke chyrche, techeth & holdeth for necessary to saluacyon.

¶After all thys in the .xiiii. and the xv. lefe, he asketh me wyth a solēpne dreuen processe, whyther I wolde not thynke it good and weldone / that all such as haue authoryte to punysh heretykes, shold before they punysh them, amēde fyrst theyr own fawtes. And I thynke yes in good faith, that it were very well done / and I wold that euery man wolde so do in dede, that eyther sholde correcte heretyke or any malefactour els.

¶But than agayn I aske hym, that though this were weldone, yf euery [Page] man wolde waxe as good as another good man wolde wyshe hym, and as hym selfe wold wysshe another man to be: yet yf there were some yt were not so sodaynly so well dysposed, as to mende theyr own fawtes so soone as the dewty of theyr offyce wolde requyre of necessyte, that they sholde do correccyon vppon the fawtes of some other folke: sholde they not yet do it for all that in the meane whyle, and other folke to whom it appertey­ned / be boundē to assyste them therin, though theyr owne fawtes were not all amended yet.

¶To this question so he hath in the same place answered me yes, as I haue hym to the toth [...]r. And thus good readers this good man and I, after our sore conflycte in the tother mater, haue yet in these two poyntes stryken handes agayn, and be god be thāked metely well agreed togyther, god holde it.

The, vi. chapyter.

HIs syxth chapy­ter begynneth in ye .xvi. lefe, wher­in he shewed that I in myne apolo­gye misse take the letter of his sayd treatyce / and he telleth which wordꝭ. But he telleth neyther in what place of his booke his wordes are, nor in what place of my booke you maye fynde myne. Those two thynges he leueth out, bycause he wolde as he sayd in the begynnynge, not folowe thorder of my chapyters, but take ye waye that sholde be best to the playn openynge of the trouth. But for as mych as me semeth that to the playn openynge of treuth, the redyer waye is to reade fyrste bothe the places, & than this his answere after: ye may therfore good readers fynd both hys [Page] wordꝭ and myne in my apologye / his in the lefe. 123 / and myne agaynste which he now reasoneth ī his answer ye shall fynd fo. 127. And now good readers yf you reade and consyder those two places fyrst, and than com­pare well the wordes of myne apologye there, with the wordes of his an­swere here: it shall suffyce for this mater. For there shal you se wel that I mysse take not ye letter of his wor­des. For I say not nay, but that hys wordes go onely agaynst spyrytuall men / but his reason runneth out a­gaynst euery kynd of men spyrytuall & tēporall to. And there I shew also, the reason wherfore and why. And therfore I wene it wyl appere plain, that I myssetake not the letter of his treatyse at all / & that his reason run­neth out in dede agaynst euery kynde of men. For there is neyther spyry­tuall man nor temporall, but he maye take harme by habundaunce.

[Page xxxvii]But so is there as I there saye, neyther, spyrytuall man nor temporall, but he maye wyth haboundaunce do good.

¶But nowe the declaracyon of his mynde in thys answere, mendeth al the mater. For here he declareth yt by these wordꝭ of his in a maner stranglynge: he meaneth the mynyshynge of some feruour, as though a man wolde say that by almost killyng with a clubbe, he ment the geuynge of a fylyppe in the forhed wyth his lytle fynger.

¶But syth that in this .vi. chapite [...] of hys, his great mortall stranglyng is nowe strangeled away, and tourned into venyall synne: we shall for this mater trouble you no lēger / but eue­ryman maye take haly water and go home to dyner, for seruyce is all done here for to day.

¶The counsayle of saynte Ber­narde that he there speketh of to the pope Eugenius, is in good fayth as [Page] me thynketh very well brought in. And I wolde aduyse euery spiritual man to folowe yt, and to take good temporal men to hym, and let theym do all hys temporall besynesse for hym. This thynke I good as for myne owne mynde, but yf there be in any parte any lawes made all redy to the contrarye, by suche folke as yt can not bycome me to contrall. Howe be yt I suppose that myche parte of theyre temporall besynesse is done by temporall men in dede.

¶As for his acte of parliament that he speketh of I suppose veryly that the clergye wolde not be agaynst yt. And suche actes are there all redy made mo then one, good and suffycy­ent / but yf he meane to sette an addycyon therto, that [...]he kynges grace sholde expressely be bounden by the acte, that yf he gaue any lycence of mortysynge into the chyrche, yt shold be voyde / excepte such cases as thys [Page xxxviii] good man lyste to lymyte and geue hym leue. Syth his hyghnes is now moued by this good mā here therto: his grace may agre to it when yt pleaseth hym.

¶As for the great mater that he maketh, of that I neuer in all the tyme that I was conuersaunt in the court, could perceyue any of the noble men aboue the nombre of seuen, and yet not nowe so many, that euer thought yt good that any possessyons of the chyrche, sholde wyth oute a lawfull cause be taken awaye there from: I meruayle mych what he meaneth, and what subtyll conceyte he concey­ueth in his wyse breste, that he so mutereth, and mūbleth vpon that word as though suche communicacyon ey­ther on the tone syde or the tother, were of suche hygh importaunce, that yt were eyther felonye or some heyghnouse mysprisyō, eyther in tel­lyng the tale agayn, or els in kepyng yt counsayle so longe.

[Page]For I wote nere in good faythe in whyche of the twayne this good man fyndeth ye faute, or whether he fynde any or none. But yf he fynde any: in which of the twayne so euer he fynd yt, he fyndeth but his owne foly. For nowe shall you good readers se, what lytle insyght the man hath in a­ny thyng that he readeth. Fyrst he reherseth a parte of my wordꝭ wryten in myne Apologye fo. 130, where I saye that I neuer founde in all the tyme whyse I was conuersaunt in the courte, of all the nobylyte of this lande. aboue the nombre of seuen, yt euer I perceyued to be of y mynd, that yt were eyther ryght, or reasonable, or coulde be to the realme profy­table, wythout lawfull cause to take any possessyons awaye frome the clergye.

Nowe vpon these wordꝭ ye shall se what he gathereth, by whych ye shal se what wyt and what lernynge the [Page xxxix] man hath. These are his wordes lo.

Syth mayster More sayth that he hath not knowen aboue seuen (wherof he sayth thre are dede) that were of the mynde that yt were reasonable wythout cause to take possessyons fro the clergye / in whyche wordes yt is coucluded, that he knew seuen of that mynde, whose opynyons yt lyketh hym to reherse and putte in writynge and in prynte also.

¶This man hath a special insyght in inclusyues and exclusyues, when he weneth that in my wordes it were included, that I knewe .vii. of that mynde, that yt were reasonable to take awaye possessyons fro the chyr­che wythout cause. My wordes you wote well that I neuer knewe aboue seuen, that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche, thought eyther ryght, or resonable, or that yt coulde be to the realme profytable. What include these wordꝭ now? Do they include as he saith, y I say that I knew .vii. yt thought yt reasonable? Thys mā ys so connynge in hys inclusyues & exclusyues, that he dyscerneth no­thynge [Page] bytwene compulatyues and dysiunctyuys. This man I se well neuer lerned the rule that almoste euery boy can, that to the veryte of a dysiunctyue, yt suffyseth any one parte to be trew. Let hym now lerne yt therfore / and thenne shall he per­ceyue that my wordꝭ include no far­ther, but that I saye that I knewe seuen which among them all thought some one of those thre thynges, that is to wyt, eyther some of them some one, and some of them some other or els al seuē some one of those thre thinges, that is to wyt, eyther ryght, or reasonable, or profytable, wythoute any determynacyon whyche of the thre. And neyther includeth those wordes of myne that I say all seuen thoughte yt ryght, nor that all seuen thoughte yt reasonable, no nor yet that all seuen thought yt profytable. But yt hangeth not vppon hys de­termynacyon, but vpon myn owne declaracyō, [Page xl] which of these thre thinges whyche of those same seuen thought or whyche one of the thre they all thoughte / and neuer one of those thre thynges is determinately included to any one of the seuen. For yf I wolde saye that I neuer knewe in all my lyfe any man aboue the nomber of seuen, that had ben eyther at Alkayre or at Salem, or at Bizance: do these wordes include that I saye that I haue knowen seuen that haue ben at Salem? That am I sure they do not. But I maye well stande by those wordes, yf I sayde after, that I haue knowen seuen persons that haue b [...]n al seuen at Bizance / but as for Alkayre or Salē I neuer knewe any one that hadde ben at any one of them both.

¶And in lyke wyse wyll I well stande by myne other wordes and veryfye theym wyth a good excludyng of this mannes includyng. For I say [Page] and very trouthe yt is, that I neuer found any noble man aboue the nombre of seuen, that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the clergye, thought yt eyther ryght or reasonable, or that yt coulde be for the realme profytable. I founde not I saye aboue seuen, that thought any one of all these thre / is not this trew yf I found seuen, yt thought all thre? yes forsoth trewe ynough though I neuer found any one, yt euer thought any two of the thre. And nowe ther­fore though I neuer founde any noble man so vnryghtuouse, or so vn­reasonable, as to thynke yt ryght or reasonable, wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye any possessyons from the clergye: yet haue I founde seuē that haue thought, yf ryghte and reason wolde bere yt, they coulde tell howe that as for worldely polycye, some of the possesseons taken awaye myght be to the realme profytable [Page xli] And some one hathe thought that yt wolde be peraduenture profytable to the realme, that the lordes hadde the landes whose auncestours had mortysed theym. And peraduenture he that so thought, shold not haue lost a grote by yt. And some other hathe thought that it wold be more profytable to put yt into hospytalles of some certayn new fashyoned foundacyon, and therof neyther make prestes the maysters, nor no laye men neyther, but some good sad honest vertuouse wydos, that wolde be tendable & tendre to syke folke, and that shold yerely yelde a compte vnto thordynarye. And some other haue thought yt bet­ter to dyuyde & cant yt amonge good pore husband men, that shold tyl the ground theyr own handes, & take the lande for theyr labour, with dyuers other dyuyses mo, euery man after hys own mynde. And what harme was there nowe in any of all theyre [Page] myndes, yt thys good wise man wold haue my wordes seme so heygnouse, vppon a sentence that hym selfe in­cludeth in theym / and whyche sen­tence of hys, reason excludeth from theym / and in whyche as you playn­ly se proued, thys man woteth nere what he meaneth. And to thentent yt he shold wel knowe that the mater is nothynge ferefull: therfore wrote I that thre were dede, bycause he sholde well wyt that there were yet the more parte a lyue. And therfore yf the good man thynke any great heygnouse offence in the mater: lette hym come to me hym selfe, and I shall brynge hym to some of theym, that shall not make yt straunge to say agayne the same to hym selfe / and than he may vse it at his pleasure as his hygh wysedome shal thynke con­uenyent.

Than sayth he farther in the secōde [Page xlii] syde of the .xviii. lefe, yt he can not tel what cause I wold thynke a cause resonable, to take any possessions from ye chyrche. But yet syth yt is implyed in my wordes, that some cause lawe­full and resonable there may be: he thynketh he sayth, y peraduenture yf I were asked the question therin, by thē yt haue authoryte to do it, I wolde shewe what I ment therby. There shal in good faith nede no gret solēne examynacyon of me by men of authoryte for that mater. For I wyll not stycke to tel yt vnto hym selfe / but haue tolde yt al redy to hym and euery man ellys that lyste to reade yt, a good whyle a go in my booke of the Supplycacyon of soules / and there maye thys good man go seke yt yf yt please hym, and then vse yt as yt lyke hym.

¶But fynally after his harte some what eased, he cometh to hym selfe [Page] agayne, and endeth the chapyter ve­ry well / wyshynge the clergye the grace that the apostles had, and de­clarynge that he neuer desyred them thapostles pouertye / and exhortyng theym that haue aboundaunce of possessyons, to be well ware so to vse yt as yt be not a let of the deuocyon that they sholde haue to god, and the cha­ryte that they sholde shewe to theyre neyghbour. In these thre thynges he sayth as me thinketh very specially well. And I praye you hartely good readers euery man the [...] rather at my pore request, what so euer he wrote before, thynke now that he ment then but thus.

The .vii. chapeter.

HIs seuenth cha­piter begynneth in the .xix. lefe and therin vp­pon a sex leues / he argeweth a­gaynste a lytle doute that I moued vpon the begynnynge of his fyrste chapyter of hys dyuysyon / whych wordes of his and myne theruppon begynne in myne a­pologye fo. 101. And the same poynt is touched agayne there fo. 106. When you haue there redde what I [...]y: then may you rede here hys an­swere, wherin he declareth ye mater, and argueth, it by cases of law, mych after the maner of a motable case, ful wel fauoredly in good fayth / and wyth longe labour proueth at laste, that yt must be taken in such wyse as he seeth, yt among other construcciōs [Page] I cōstrued his minde my self, though I was loth to do so, bycause yt waye was the worste for hym selfe. But nowe he remedyeth that wyth a lyne or twayne [...] wherin he declareth yt he ment not to preferre euery seculare preste byfore those that are in relygyon. wherin I wold haue trusted him as well vppon his worde, as vppon the reason that he layeth for it now / whyche saue for the truste that I haue to his word, I wold wene he neuer thoughte on whan he wrote the dyuysyon / but rather ended ye clause in suche wyse as yt happed, wythout any respect peraduēture to thēcrease and growynge of the sentence in the ende.

¶I was ones halfe in mynde here to haue kepte scoles wyth hym yet in this poynte ones agayne, euyn all of pleasure / and to haue broughte yt yet agayne in questyone, whether the cyrcūstaunces of his wordꝭ were [Page xliiii] able to proue, that he ment otherwise than he now argueth yt it muste nedꝭ be taken. And then yf the cyrcumstances so dyd, whether commen vsage and acceptaunce of a worde sholde agaynste the cyrcumstaunces of the mater, haue lyke strength in all other thynges, as yt hath in maters of law / and whether the reason vsed in the courtes in maters of law, be of lyke strength in euery other thynge as they be when they be made in ma­te [...]s of lawe / and of lyke vygour and force in euery place abrode, as they be in the courtes in whyche they haue ben longe receued and accepted for sure and stable groundes.

¶ And whyther in this poynte betwene hym and me, beynge no mater of the law nor perteynyng to the iudgement of any court, but to be consy­dered by the whole people in euery mannes reason at large, the cases of the lawe of thys realme that he [...] [Page] [...] [Page xlv] [Page] bryngeth in, whyche be iudged and sure, and shold serue the tone parte in the lawe, though the mater were the weyghte of a thousande pounde, sholde hycause we be englyshe men, and our mater wryten in Englande and in Englyshe wordes, stande for a sure and an insoluble argument, though the lawes both ciuyle and ca­non that are called the comen lawes of all chrystendome besyde vs, were as peraduenture they be in the selfe same cases, full and whole to the contrarye.

And yet wolde I besyde thys a lyt­le haue assayed, so to shake his cases of London and Mychelmasse, yt per aduenture to many a man in London betwene this and Michelmas, shold they neuer haue semed lyke vnto our mater, by that tyme that I had ones declared them the dyfference.

¶These poyntes and happely mo to, was I whē I redde his answere [Page xlv] halse mynded as I saye to haue brought in, and dysputed wyth hym vpon this mater. For I was waxen with ye readyng of his answere very mery, and waxen me thought a yong man agayn / and semed set at a vaca­cyon mote with hym in some Inne of the chauncery, bycause of hys comen entendement, and his proper casys of lawe.

¶But than I consydered that as I was in the redynge of his answere mery: so was hym selfe I saw well in the wrytynge wery / and other rea­ders that were no lawyers, wolde in the readynge waxe almost as wery. Than sawe I also, that whan hym selfe had all sayed, he lyked not hys owne all the beste / but after all hys payne taken in the answeryng, seyng that his answere lyked hym not, he was fayne to fall to another waye, & telleth me that there nedeth none an­swere to that poynte at all, bycause [Page] that there is no frute he sayth in that obieccyon.

¶Now therfore yf thobieccyon be frutelesse, and therfore thanswere nedelesse, and verily frutelesse to: nowe to reply thereto were labour halfe loste and more. And therfore good readers for as myche as to the answere made by the maner, no law putteth vs ferther to reply: ye mater is at a demurrour in thys poynt, and we at your iugemēt, wherein ye may vse your wysedome and iuge it euyn as you fynde it. Wherin the best that he can aske, is but to be dysmyssed, & iudge that he ment not to preferre the state of chauntry prestes before the state of relygyouse persōs / but ment as he now declareth his minde (whi­che very few folke coulde before as I suppose haue gessed) that the va­ryaunce bytwen prestes and prestes, that is to wyt bytwene seculare pre­stes and seculare prestes, is more to [Page xlvi] be lamented than bytwene prestes & relygyouse, or bytwene relygyouse and relygyouse, bycause ye varyaūce bytwene prestes and prestes is more marked and more notable than any of the tother, bycause the prestes go more abrode.

Now yf this exposicyō of his mynde may serue to quyte hym now: (which I am content it do) it is all I pro­myse you that it maye do. For it wyll neuer serue hym to recouer damma­ges. For he can neuer blame no man that perceyued not that before, that is skant credyble yet.

¶But yet bycause he so myche in­cusketh the lacke of fruyte in many of myne obieccyons, and that they be no maters of no morall vertue: I wyll not answere hym wyth the lyke / and saye that in many of hys pretended causes of dyuisyon is no fruit at all, nor no morall vertue ney­ther / as in procurynge the people to [Page] byleue vntrewly, that the prelates handle men vncherytably, and for heresyes vexe them wrongfully, & geue occasyō that some peryshe both in body and soule / whyche yf the or­dynaryes had handeled them cherytably, had ben in bothe twayne saued / and that it wylbe very harde to fynd so myche as any one spyrytuall man suche, as hym selfe deuyseth and ad­uyseth, that none but suche sholde be suffred to be iudge in heresye / and laborynge also the good lawes of thys realme and of all chrystendome to be chaunged, to the ease of heretykes, yt haue ben made for the repressynge of heresyes / wyth suche other thynges lyke that are in his boke of dyuysyon mo than I euer wrote worde of yet / in whiche (as I haue often sayd) for as mych as I sē yt he professeth hym selfe to hate and abhorre these here­syes, yt these folke now holde, whom saynt poule calleth heretikes (I dare [Page xlvii] not now for hym but whan I forget my selfe call theym by none other name) I wolde with good wyll that men shold thynke he ment none hurt. But in the wordes of the wrytynge, taken after the comen vsage and ac­ceptaunce of spekynge, as he wyll in thys his .vii. chapyter haue me take them, there is neyther morall vertue nor frute, but full vnfrutefull vyce.

¶But as I sayd, I wyll not in de­fence of myne [...], answere hym with ye fawtes of his. For myne were neuer the better though his be nought to. But I saye that myne obieccyons in myne apologye be not frutelesse, by­cause they defende the truthe, & make good folke ꝑceyue both what harme it were to byleue suche euyll lyes, & what dammage it were to put awaye suche good lawes / and how vnreasonable it were in other mennes fawtꝭ to take small thyngꝭ for very heygh­nouse and great / or for them that in a [Page] felesshyp are fawty, not to bere dys­pleasure onely to theyr persons, but to be at dyuysyon in generall wyth the whole company. And this fruitis there also, that though that boke saye the contrary, straungers such as are here and can rede englysshe, whyche are not ye wote well a few, many yet perceyue by playne proues in myne apologye, that not onely there is no suche great generall causes of dyuy­syon as the booke of dyuysyon sayth that there is, but also that there is no such great generyll dyuysyō thorow the realme in dede. These fruytes are there in many of myne obieccy­ons agaynste hys booke in myne a­pologye.

¶Now where as some of myne ob­ieccyons peraduēture, say but eyther lacke of lernynge in hym, or lacke of naturall wytte, syth his name is not at his boke, but he speketh hym selfe vnknowen: this profyte is there in [Page xlviii] suche obieccyons, that wythout hys rebuke or shame, the readers may by those fawtes perceyue, that the wryter was not of any such specyall qualytees, as the booke wherin so mych euyll was conteyned, sholde be mych lened vnto, for credence and autho­ryte of the man.

¶Finally the very selfe obieccyon, wherof he speketh in yt seuenth cha­pyter of his in his new booke, & sayth there is no profyte in that obieccyon, and that therfore it neded none an­swere / but he myght graunte me all that euer I saye therin, and yet none effectuall mater were there for all that: therto I saye that loke who so lyste what I saye therin, and he shall fynde that yf this man graunte all yt, he shal graūte in hym self mych more ouersyghte & mych more lacke of lernyng to, than were requysyte in hym that wold put out bokes abrode / and therfore hys wrytyng the lesse to be [Page] regarded, whyle hys person is vn­knowē / where as yf his person were knowen, he myght be peraduenture perceyued for all that, for suche a specyall man by syde, that hys approued wysedome and lernyng well knowē otherwyse, myght for thestimacyon of his boke, more than countrepayse some suche ouersyghtes as at a tyme myght happely to scape a right wyse man, yt wolde wryte by candellyght whyle he were halfe a slepe.

¶But than I say ferther yet / that in that obieccyon was a mater of no lytell effect. For takyng that he ment as hym selfe sayth he dyd: his wor­des semed playnely to shewe, that he rekened the state of chauntry prestꝭ, to be a state of more perfeccyon than the state of relygyouse folke. And therfore thobieccyon cōtayned mater of great effecte, and whych he mych neded to answere and to declare that he ment not so / but that he ment as he [Page xlix] now declareth, that dyuysyon is by­twene seculare prestes, more lamen­table than bytwene relygyouse, by­cause the seculare prestes be more a­brode, and therby theyr varyaunce more knowen. Whyche exposycyon few men I wene wold haue thought vpon before. But now that he sayth he ment so: I am very well content therwyth, and wolde that all folke sholde take it so to / & yet is it ye wote well but very wynter ware, and a scu [...]e as colde as a [...]ay.

The .viii. chapyter.

HIs .viii. chapiter begynneth in the secūde side of his xxv. lefe, and pretēdeth to answere my wordes wry­ten agaynste his, in the .xix. chapiter of myne apology, whyche begynneth folio. 116.

[Page]And now he sayth that I say there, that I wote not wel what he meneth in that he sayth that the spyrytualtye call the worldely honour of the chyr­che and of spyritual persons, the ho­nour of god. And therfore he sayeth here, that he wyll, & so doeth declare therin, what he there ment therby.

¶But here is now ye crafte. where as I did there shew what I thought he ment therby, and therfore made answere to those thyngꝭ yt I thought he there ment: now the mater beyng chaunged here, by hys new declara­cyon: he bryngeth in myne answers made there, and confuteth them for insuffycyent now, whan hys new declaracyon hath made a chaunge in the mater / as though I had than men [...] [...]o answere this, that I was not than ware that he wolde now saye, nor I wene hym selfe neyther.

¶But rede fyrste good readers the xix. chapyter of myne apologye be­gynnyng [Page l] fo. 116. and there shall you se those wordes of his suffycyently answered, for the thynge that me thought he ment. And than after that done, consyder hys answere here / in whyche for all hys holy pyece of a sermon, what doth he tell me. He telleth me that honour is onely dew to vertue, & that no man may couet ho­nour without offence / excepte it be to the honour of god, and that inordyna [...] appetyte of honour is dedely synne / and that yf a spyrytuall man wolde accepte honour by reason of any spi­rytuall dygnyte, and that god were therby dyshonoured, thanne that ho­nour were not to be called honour but dyshonour / and that yet some laye menne saye that spyrytuall men call it an honour to god.

All thys whole tale for all thys holy sermon is yet to the mater, in mayntenaunce of hys formar wordꝭ whiche [Page] he wold here seme to defēde, vtterly tolde in vayne. For fyrste in all this tale he telleth vs not well what he calleth worldly honour, whyche he sayth the spirytualty calleth the ho­nour of god, & which was the thynge that I sayed I wyste nere what ho­nour he ment. For where he wolde seme to declare it: there is hys declaracyon both very bare, & yet agaynst hym to. For in the secunde syde of the xxvi. lefe, he drybbeth in a worde of spyrytuall dygnite / & thus he sayth. Then I mene ferther, that yf any spyrytuall man wolde accepte a worldly honour, by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte, & god were therby dyshonored, as it may be by many circumstances, as yf for suche worldly honour charyte be in any maner broken or denyed, iustyce delayed, any of the .vii. sacramentes not [...]nely mynystred: or the people not dylygentely and playnely instructed: that then it is not to be called honour to god, but rather dishonour, and that yet some saye men say, they call it an honour to god. And surely the truth is, that many saye men saye, that for the mayntenaunce of such worldly honour, spyrytuall men bothe relygyouse and seculer, be ne­glygēt somtyme in such thinges, as be before reher­sed, and that yet they call suche worldly honour the honour of god.

[Page li]¶ Here he hath told vs that yf any spyrytuall man wold accept a world­ly honour, by reason of any spyritual dygnite, wherby god were dyshono­red, that honour were not honour. But yet he telleth vs not what ma­ner of worldly honour it is that he meneth to be accepted by reason of a spirytuall dignyte / nor yet what ma­ner thynge suche worldly honour is / nor touchyng that spyrytual dignite, he telleth not whyther he mene a de­syre in any man to attayne any spyry­tual dignite, for some kinde of world­ly honour yt he thynketh shold folow theron, or els some worldly honour by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte, that the man hath all redy.

¶I let passe his cold and vnsauery tolde tale of cheryte denyed, and iu­styce delayed, and some of the seuen sacramentes not duly mynystred, for mayntenaunce of such worldely ho­nour, as some spyrituall men bothe [Page] seculares and relygyouse by reason of spyrytuall dygnytees accepte, as some laye men saye. A pore tale and a colde by my faye, to be tolde for a cause of an heyghnouse vniuersall dyuysyon. For thys were an endeles dyuysyon, yf euery suche [...]awte of some, sholde vppon euery some saye be layed for a cause of dyuysyon a­gaynst the generall body.

¶And yet bysyde all thys, I saye that hys fyrste wordes are nothynge mayntened wyth all thys mater. For hys fyrste wordes spake of a consent and agrement, wherin seculare pre­stes and relygyous, for all the va­ryaūce bytwene them selfe for other thynges, yet agre togyther about the mayntenaunce of that worldely ho­nour that they call the honour of god. And here he speketh but of another mater that is to wyt yt for the mayn­tenaunce of wordely honour [...] spyry­tuall men both relygyouse and secu­lar [Page lii] be neglygent somtyme, & in some maner breke or denye cheryte, delaye iustyce, & do not dewly ministre some of the seuen sacramentes, nor dyly­gently & plainely instructe the peple.

¶All this tale as you se to wche [...]h ye pryuate fawtes of some such, as for the mayntenaūce of that worldly ho­nour which they call goddes honour, thus mysse vse them selfe. But thys tale is nothynge sybbe to hys other tale, that he tolde and I towched be­fore. For that spake of such agremēt all in one, that is to wyt an holdynge togyther whych sygnyfyeth a mayn­teynynge eche of other agaynst other men, in mayntenaūce of that worldly honour that they call the honour of god, in lyke wyse as for maters of theyr owne, they be one agaynste an other amonge them selfe.

¶And thus you se playnely good reders, yt this maner of mayntenyng [...] [Page] [...] [Page lii] [Page] of his formar wordꝭ, is a clene going from them, and a seuyng of them vnmayntened / and (bycause he cometh vppon me byfore in another place with casys of law) were in the lawe a very playne departure, and sholde in any of the kynges courtes yf I demurred vppon it, vtterly marre all his mater.

¶And so it appereth that some other some, haue sayd this vnto him sinnys to glose his fyrste wordes wythall. And yet I meruayle that he coulde thynke theyr sayeng worth the rehe [...] synge agayne. For who can byleue yt any spyritual man wold be so madde, as to call worldely honour vsed to goddꝭ dishonour, the honour of god. I can scant byleue that any laye man wolde so tell hym / at the leste wyse not wyth that adieccyon, that he now putteth new therto.

¶But now yf it so be that vn the tother syde, all spyrytuall men wold [Page liii] wyth one voyce to gether, call the honour of god, that wordly honour that worldely folke do to the chyrche and vnto spyrytuall persons, for the de­uocyon that good lay men bere to god and vnto spyrituall ꝑsons for goddis sake, by reason of theyr holy orders and honorable romes that they bere in Chrystes chyrche / though some of theym as this man sayth / sometyme do not theyre dutye therin, but leue some parte of theyr dutyes towarde goddes honour vndone therfore: yet for the deuocyon of the temporall persons that for goddis honour do i [...], they may all well call yt goddes ho­nour in dede. And therfore is thys good man in that poynte full answe­red, as solemne a mater as he made therof.

¶But nowe concernynge hys for­mare wordes of the agrement of all spyrytuall folke to gether, in ye mayntenaunce of theyr wordly honour, for [Page] al theyre pryuate dyspleasures and dyssensyons in other thynges among theym selfe / wyth whyche he cometh in after here agayne, and referreth hym to the commen opinyon of mych parte of the people bothe spyrytuall and temporal, whether laye men so saye or not: I saye that though al men so sayde, yet is no man at dyuy­syon wyth theym therfore. For there is no cause wherfore any man shold. For yt is none vnreasonable thynge, that syth those thynges whych thys, man speketh of, that is to wyt those spyrytuall dygnytees to whyche he sayth suche worldely honour apper­teyne [...]h, are lawefully theyr owne, eche of theym sholde in all laweful ways and such as are by no law pro­hybyted, helpe & ass [...]ste other to kepe them, though there be for pryuate maters of theyr owne varyaunce & suyt betwene theym. And thys may they with better cōscyēce do eche for other [Page liiii] than eche of them for them selfe. For in thys that they do for other, is there not the synne of ambycyon that thys man here speketh of. And this is the parte not onely of spyrytuall men relygyouse and seculare bothe, but of euery good temporall man to / and not onely to do so for them, but euery man also for other. And therfore what reason hadde those same some that so tolde this man, yf there were any some suche in dede, to take thys thynge for any cause of dyuysyon? or why dyd not he so rather tell theym, than putte theyre founde tale in hys boke?

¶But than one pretie pyece he hath of two partes, by whych he weneth that the spyrytualtye can in no wyse escape but that they muste nedys be betrapped in the tone. For when he hathe sayde that the people saye that spyrytuall men be sometyme neglygent in kepynge or grauntynge [Page] charyte, or in spedy doynge of iustyce or in duely mynystrynge some of the seuen sacramentes, or in playne & dy­lygent instructynge of the people: then with a proper pyece of two par­tes thus he concludeth the mater.

And yf yt be not so as the people saye: then are the spyrytuall rulers bounden to helpe the people oute of that iugement, or ellys they be not wythout offence theym selfe. And on the tother syde, yf yt be as the people saye [...] then are spyrytuall men bounden to reforme yt.

¶As for thys two handed sworde, some yonge lustye freee wold boldely bete of wyth a two handed staffe, and tell this man agayne, that yf the peple as he putteth for the tone parte sayde in such thynges not trew: than seeth he not nor no man elles neither, what the spyrytnal rulers coulde do to put theym oute of that iudgement, but tell theym, nolite iudicare et non iudicabimini / and so wyll that syde of the sworde do this man lytle seruyce. And then on the tother syde, yf the people in these thynges saye trew as [Page lv] yt is well lykely they do: than trewe yt is that the spyrytull men be boun­den to reforme yt. But than is yt as trew agayne, that the thynge beynge but suche as this man reherseth, that ys to wyt neglygence but in some, in doyenge of some parte of theyr du­tye, and that also but sometyme, is no cause of dyuysyon to sette the whole temporaltye agaynge theym all, and that syde of the sworde ye frere wold wyth this ende of his staffe bete, harde vnto this mannes own hed.

¶Now goeth this man farther fo. 27. and sheweth that myne answere to his wordes whyche you reade in the .xix. chapyter of myn Apologye, be very darke, by the reason that I vse therin so often this word (Some saye) whyche is he sayth done after a raylyng fashion. But as you know wel good reders, I haue takē yt word Some say, of his boke, in whyche I redde yt so often / that yt falleth somtyme [Page] into my penne ere I be ware.

¶And as for the raylynge fashyon, yf I durste be bolde to tel so sadde a man a mery tale, I wolde tell hym of the frere, that as he was prechyng in the countrey, spyed a pore wyfe of the paryshe wysperynge wyth her pew felowe / and he fallynge angrye therto, cryed oute vnto her alowd, holde thy bable I byd the, thou wyfe in the rede hode. Whyche when the houswyfe herd: she waxed as angry agayn / and sodaynly she starte vppe and cryed oute vnto the frere agayn, that al the chyrch rang theron: mary syr I beshrew his harte that bableth moste of vs both. For I do but wys­per a word with my neighbour here, & thou hast babled there al this houre. And surely good readers saue for lettynge of the word of god in this good mannys sermone: I durste well in the same worde (Some saye) be­shrowe [Page lvi] hym and beshrowe hym a­gayne, that moste hathe raysed ther­wyth of thys good man or me. For reade my wordes there when ye wyll, and you shall fynde that I wyth that worde do but in a maner playe wyth hym. But by saynte Mary he, how well so euer he ment, hys wordes wyth his many (Some sayes) brynge good men in slaunder and obloquye of the people, and per­aduenture in parell to, wyth vn­trewe surmysed talys of mysse han­delynge folke for heresye / and all coloured vnder some sayes to make the lyes seme somewhat lykely. Suche shrewd (Some sayes) lo be no mery sportynge, but be sadde and erneste rude raylynges in dede.

¶Then he toucheth myne answere made in the sayde chapyter of myne apology, & double confuteth yt, yt I saye that he hath herd some laye men [Page] say the contrary. For fyrste he sayth he neuer herd lay man say to hym the cōtrary / but that al ye spyrytual men relygyouse and seculare, holde to gether in the mayntenaūce of the worldly honour, that they cal the honour of god, & of the ryches of spyritual men.

¶ Nowe you wote well I speke in the sayde .xix. chapytre, that of the spirytualtye suche as are fallen from the fayth vnto heresye, hold not at al wyth that honour that I thoughte he there had ment, that is to wyt wyth byeldynge and garnyshynge of chyr­ches / but be both agaynst that, and tythes, and offeringes, and obytes, and trentalles, aud purgatorye, & masse, and al. And I had wēt in good fayth that of so great a thyng, and so mych spokē of, yt had happed hym to heare some say mē speke, but he sayth nay. Wel we can no farther thā, but stand vnto hys worde, and take an othe of his honesty therin, & yet I wene as [Page lvii] honeste as he is, what so euer he be, his own honeste frende / wyll be loth to swere wyth hym therin.

But then sayth he farther, yt though yt were so: that wolde not yet an­swere hys sayeng. It wolde not to saye the soth in very dede, takynge his worde as I wene he ment yt. But takynge his worde to the worst (as he taketh alwaye myne) and yet but euyn as he wrote yt (but yf yt be prented false) yt is a confutacyon to yt. For yf those spyrytuall persones bothe relygyouse and seculares, that are fallen from the fayth to heresyes holde not wyth the remanaunt: then perdye though they were fewer then they be, yt ys not all trewe that he sayeth, that in the mayntenaunce of suche honoure they holde the gether all. And yet as I haue all redye shewed you, yt wolde not helpe hys parte of a peny, though they dyd euery [...]hone seculares and relygyouse, [Page] catholyqnes and heretyques to. And therfore can he not saye but he ys in thys poynte answered, euen to the very full.

¶Than in the .xxviii. and .xxix. lefe he subtylly fyndeth a faute, that I saye that there are some suche of the spyritualty so fallen vnto heresyes, that yt is pytye that euer they were therof, bycause he sayth we sholde not dyspayre of theym / but they may repent and amende. And also though they do neuer amende: yet I sholde not saye so. For men maye not saye by the deuyll, that yt is pytye that euer he was created, bycause goddes iustyce ys sheweth on hym. We wyl in thys mater kepe no longe scholes. But thys euery man knoweth, that who so vse a commen worde spoken amonge the people, ys rekened so to meane therin, as the commen peo­ple meane yt vse yt. And therfore syth the people that so speketh, mea­neth [Page lviii] not to speke agaynste amende­ment, but agaynste the present wre­ched state that the man standeth in at the tyme: that worde may by god­des grace be borne metely well y­nough. And as touchynge the deuyll, though men maye not grudge agaynst goddes iuste punyshement: yet peraduenture a man myght saye wythoute parell of dampnacyom, that yt was pytye that he so mysse vsed hym selfe / as in theym that are for theyre heyghnouse offences put vnto paynefull deth, though we saye they were serued as they well de­serued, yet we lette not to saye yt was pytye that they guyded theym selfe no better. And saynte Chry­sostome pytyeth also the deuyll.

And our sauyoure hym selfe pytyed Hierusalem, and for the pytye wept also thereon, for the punyshement that sholde fall theron / and yet was yt the iuste punyshement of god.

[Page]¶And though the partyes after­warde maye mende and do good a­gayne: yet for the tyme tyll they mende, ye and after to, we maye py­tye that they were in suche case, as to hurte theym whome they haue all redy remedelesse destroyed, by theyr false doctryne dede in the damnable heresyes that they lerned of theym, and lye therfore beryed in hell. And therfore the thynge that I maye not absolutely pytye: yet in some respec­tes I may.

¶Fynally he sayeth that I sholde not call any heretyques desperate wrechys. This is a sore poynte I assure you, to cal a wreche, suche as he sheweth hym selfe to be / to cal hym desperate, whose lyuynge sheweth no maner hope of amendement. Saynte Cypryane I se well was sore ouersene, whyche in the seuenth pystle of hys fyrste booke, for lesse thynges than these are, calleth some [Page lix] folke desperate. And y [...]t was saynt Policarpus farther eu [...]sene, whyche calleth Marcyon the fyrste begotten sonne of the deuyll.

Thys man hathe here as he weneth founde oute proper fantsyes, wher­in I hadde leuer leue hym in the ly­kynge, thanne lese myche tyme in answerynge of suche blonte subtyll tryfles.

¶But to the mater good readers concernynge the formare wordes of hys dyuysyon, all be yt that I haue here more thanne fully confuted this chapytre of hys, for any defence that he hathe for hys sayde formare wordes, where aboute ys all our mater: reade yet the .xviii. chapy­ter of myne Apologye, wherin you shall se dyuerse other lyke wordes of his / and applye me myne answere there, to those other wordes of hys whyche he defendeth here / and ye shall se that he shal houe more worke [Page] then ynough, to defende theym well, and to make theym serue hym to purpose.

The .ix. chapyter.

HIs .ix. chapyter begynneth in the xxx. lefe. And his formare wordꝭ which he therwyth defendeth and myne an­swere also therto, ye shall se in the xix. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 119. Whyche when you haue good readers there ones redde ouer / than forthwyth whyle yt ys freshe in re­membraunce / retourne agayne vnto this, the .ix. chapyter of his dyaloge / and than iudge whether it any thyng touche the poynte or not. For al thys chapyter is spent in preachynge of restytucyon, full wel and ful trewly forsoth / and whych in my pore mynd [Page lx] I very well allowe / and wold haue allowed in lyke wyse his fyrste boke very well, yf there had ben no worse wordes in yt than suche. But nowe the mater standeth all in thys, that thys man maketh there as though the spyrytuallye were very besye to procure men and to enduce the people, to geue money to trentalles, to founde chaunteryes, and obytes, and to obteyne pardons, and to go vppon pylgrymages, leuynge theyr dettes vnpayed, and restytucyon vnmade, whyche thynges shold be done fyrst / and that thys ys the maner of the multitude of the spyritualtie. In this standeth the questyon. And therfore is now the poynt, not whether dettes be fyrst to be payed, & satisfaccyon of wronges fyrste to be made, byfore al these other thynges, wherin thys man sayeth here surely full well / but whyther (as he wolde haue yt seme by his boke of diuisyon) yt ye multitude [Page] of the spyrytualtie, yt is to wit eyther al saue a fewe, or at the leste wyse farre the moste parte, do soly­cyte and labour lay people to the con­trarye maner / that is to wyt, to do those other thynges, rather than to pay theyr dettꝭ or make restitucyō of theyr wrōgis. This is I say ye point. And of thys poynt wherin al the mater standeth, this man in this .ix. chapiter of his speketh not one worde. And therfore in this thing, stādeth myn answere made in ye sayd .xx. chapiter of myne apolpgye clene and clere vn­tou [...]hed, as euery mā may perceyue that readeth yt.

And therfore where in ye secōde syde of his .xxxii. lefe, this man saith thus.

And to thentent I wold haue this mater the better loked vp [...]on: I wolde here aduertyse syr Thomas More, not by waye of argument, but for clerenesse of conscyence, to consydre whyther ye the more charytable waye, fyrste to make restytucyon and paye dettes, and releue extreme pouerte, and then to do the tother yf he haue to do bothe / or elles to do the fyrste and let the tother passe.

[Page lxi]For this his good aduertysement I ve [...]y hartely thanke hym / & answere hym as hym selfe wolde wysshe I sholde, that surely me thynketh as he doth, that the more charytable waye of the twayne were that yt hym self here moueth.

¶But than lo by and by, he geueth me another good lesson, wherwith he wolde I sholde amende myne owne fawte, that he wolde it shold seme I had in myne apologye made agaynst hym. For than lo thus goeth he fer­ther forth.

And yf he thynke that this waye that I moue be the more cherytable waye, that than he helpe it for­warde, rather than the other / and than not to blame any man that maketh that mocyon, as though he were agaynst trētallys, obitis, & such other. For he is not agaynst them dyrectely / but onely entendeth to haue them chaūged into a more cherytable orde [...]. For though prayours be ryght expedyent and helthfull to the soule: yet they serue not in all ca [...]es as to dyscharge dettes or restytucyons, where there ys inough to paye them wyth / no more than there can be founden any one salue, that can hele all maner of soores.

¶I neyther haue done that I wote of, nor wyllyngly intēde to do, blame [Page] hym for any part of this cherytable mocyō / but thynke his mocyon ryght good, and that the fruyte therof yf it be folowed, wyt [...]e more yet than him selfe sayth he myndeth. For he sayth as you se, that he myndeth but to chaunge obitys and trentallys and those other thynges into a more che­rytable order / that is to wytte in to payeng of dettes and recompensyng of wronges in them that haue not of theyr owne bysyde / and in them that haue than to paye the dettes and re­compence wronges fyrste, and do the tother after. But me thynketh there wyll come yet a ferther profyte of this order to. For where as here we speke but of hym that payeth his det and recōpenseth his wrongꝭ, of whi­che folke many a man is able well to do ye tother whan bothe those twayn be done / there is to the tother sort of menne also bysyde, to whome those wronges are done, and those dettes [Page lxii] owynge, of whyche sorte there be many, that yf theyr wronges were ones recompensed them, & theyr dettꝭ payed them, were able and wolde do those other thynges also them selfe, which now for lacke be not able / & so sholde there of lykelyhed be the selfe thynges yt brynge (as his fyrste boke sayth) rychesse into the chyrch, by this good order encreaced. And therfore not onely haue I no cause, to blame thys good man for the mocyō of this good cherytable order / but also no more haue the multytude of the pre­stes, whiche myghte of lykelyhed wynne as mych by thys waye as by the tother, and more excepte the multytude of prestes wolde for ye redy­nesse to take it where it is all redy, moue theym that haue it to do these other thyngꝭ fyrst, & leue theyr dettꝭ vnpaied & theyr wrōgꝭ vnrecōpēsed, which yt the multitude of prestꝭ do / I neuer herd yet a [...]y honest laye man, [Page] that wolde for very shame say. For I thynke it were harde to mete with a prest that w [...]re so wreched, but that yf he were asked in yt point his ad [...]ce & coūsayle, he wold in so playn a point though it were but for very shame well & playnely coūsayle the trouth. And if percase there were some foū ­den so shamelesse, that they wolde geue counsayle contrary: yet am I very sure they shu [...]de be farre the fewer parte / and not as thys good mannys fyrste booke sayth, the more parte and the multytude.

¶And therfore syth this order that this good mā here moueth, is so good and so cherytable: I neuer blamed hym for the mocyō. But though this mociō in this boke be good: I myght well and so I dyd, blame his other booke / not for this mocyon, but for another mater, that is bycause it labo­red vnder pretexte of an vntrew re­port, to brynge the spyrytualtye in [Page lxiii] slawnder and obloquy amonge the temporaltye, by makynge men wene that of this cherytable order whyche he now moueth, the multytude of the spyritualty induced men to ye cōtrary.

¶This is lo the thynge that I bla­med. And therfore lyke as thys good man sayeth, that one plaster can not hele all soores: so surely thys same salue of this good cherytable mocion can not serue this good cherytable man, to salue and hele well, this vn­cherytable soore.

¶In this mocion, of this cherytable order, thys good manne waxeth so warme, that of a good zele he falleth in remembraunce of the soule (which our lorde perdon) of the moste noble prynce of very famouse memory kynge Henry the .vii. father to the most excellent prynce our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is / wherin after mencyon made of obitys and chauntrees, lettyng the dew examy­nacyon [Page] requysyte for restytucion, so­daynly thus he sayth. How be it the ryght noble prynce of blessed memory kynge Henry the .vii. father of our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is, wylled restytucyons to be made. But how hys wyll was performed I can not tell. How be it what so euer was done therin: I suppose hys good entent su [...]fyseth to hym.

¶What yf thys good man can not tell? By lykelyhed there is nothyng owynge to hym therof. For yf there were: than were it lykely yt he could tell. For he coulde tell than that all the wyl were not performed. I haue herde I wote well that the kyng our souerayne lorde, delyuered great substaunce into thexecutours handes, to fulfyll the wyll wythall. Whyche how they haue bestowed, thys good man maye (yf he haue thauthoryte) call them to the rekenynge. And yf he neyther haue authorite to call for the accompte, nor haue nothyng owyng to hym neyther: the mater than tow­cheth not hym so nere, nor so specy­ally perteyneth vnto hym yt he shold [Page lxiiii] greatly nede to geue all the worlde warnynge thus, yt hym selfe is not made of counsayle, how the kynges wyll is performed.

¶But here wyll this good man say yt I do but mocke him / wherin I wyl not greately stycke wyth hym. But surely for my pore wyt, me thynketh it somwhat more ciuilite, in some such poyntes as this is, a lytell merely to mokke hym, thā wyth odyouse ernest argumētes, seryousely to preace vppon hym. Whyche I wolde also be very loth to do, for chargyng of myn owne conscyence. And therfore in all thynges yt me thynke are of greate weyght, though I touche his wordꝭ, I accuse not his own mynde & intent For in good fayth I haue of yt man good trust, yt he meneth no wurse, but wold all thyng were well hym self / but euer more my mynde geueth me, yt some wyly shrewes abuse ye good mannes simplicyte.

The .x. chapyter.

HIs .x. chapyter begynneth in the xxxiii. lefe, wherin he towcheth certayne wordꝭ of myne, wryten in the .xxvii. cha­pyter of myne apologye, that begyn­neth fo. 162. wherin he varyeth not mych with me, sauynge in that I say that yf the prelates of ye chyrch wold wythdrawe from theyr worldely cō ­tenaunce, as is kepynge of honestley men in theyr seruyce, and kepynge of a good wurshypfull table, and wold bestow theyr plate & the moste parte of all theyr mouables at ones vp­pon poore folke, and yerely after the moste of theyr yerely reuenus to (of whiche mynde I sayd I durste war­raunt well that some prelates be, yf that wolde as I saye there, amende [Page lxv] all these grudges) that I durste be bolde to warraunt as well also, that yf the prelates so dyd, the selfe same folke that now grudge and call them proude for theyr countenaunce, wold than fynde as great a grudge, & call them ypochrytes for theyr almoyse, and wolde saye that they spende vp­pon noughty beggers the good that was wont to kepe good yomen, and that therby they both enfeble and also dyshonour the realme.

¶Vppon these wordes of myn this good man maketh me forsothe a full goodly sermō, in the .xxxv. lefe of his booke / where he begynneth it with these wordes, I can not se. And veryly yf he had there left & gone no ferther: it had ben well inough. For as for the thyng that he speketh of, it appereth by hys wordes he can not se very well in dede.

¶Bycause chryst commaundeth in the gospell, yt we shall not iudge / and [Page] that saynt Poule sayth also, who art thou that iudgest another mānes ser­uaunt / and agayne byddeth vs that we iudge not before the tyme / al whiche places are vnderstand of iugyng certayne and determinate persons to do euyll, in the thynges that we se them do, where the thynges be but indyfferent of them selfe, and maye be done not euyl onely but well also: this good man therfore layeth these textys to touche me, for iudgyng that some folke whom I neyther assigne by name, nor as yet knowe not who they be, wyll do euyll hereafter, by mysse iudgynge other men.

¶I wene verely that saynt Poule hym selfe, at the tyme whan he for­bode vs to [...]iudge before the tyme, did euyn than iudge, that some wolde af­ter that misse iudge and, iudge before the tyme to.

¶And albe it that our sauyour saith that who so call hys brother fole: is [Page lxvi] gylty to the fyre [...] yet he ment not of him yt wold say, that there were some folys abrode in the worlde. For yf he so ment: than wolde there not tenne fyrys be payne inough for hym that wrote these wordes in the scrypture: There are of folys an infynyte nomber.

¶And bycause this good man vseth somtyme thys fygure of examyna­cyon, I wolde wytte of mayster More thi [...] & that, I wolde nowe wytte thys one thynge of thys good man. Suche sawtes as he fyndeth wyth the spyrytualty wryten in hys boke of dyuy­syon: whyther dyd he than iudge yt some of the spyrytualtye wolde fall in them any more after or not? If he iudged that all theyr fantasyes to­warde those fawtes were all redy passed before, and that none of them wolde neuer do more so: than hadde he lytel cause to write all that wurke vppon theym.

[Page]And vn the tother syde yf he iudged that some of them wolde afterwarde do some such thynges agayne, eyther but yf he gaue theym warnynge, or ellys though he dyd, as I dare saye, what so euer hym selfe saye, in some of those thynges he dyd: than syth ye tyme in which he iudged in his mynd, & made hym selfe therof sure, yt some of theym wolde do some suche euyll thynges afterwarde, as were at the tyme of the same iudgement of hys mynde not comen, hym selfe fell as you se by hys owne argument, in the daynger of that prohybycyon yt hym selfe bryngeth in, by whyche saynte Poule forbedeth and sayth: Noli­te ante tempus iudicare. Iudge you not before the tyme.

¶Now yf he say that I tell whom I mene, though not by name: yet by a sygne and a token, in that I saye euyn the same wyll than call theym ypocrytes for theyr almoyse, that [Page lxvii] nowe call theym proude for theyr worldely countenaunce: he muste consyder, that I neyther tell nor can tell who be they / nor though I saye the same, I saye not yet all the same. And therfore no more mysse iudge any man determynately and in cer­tayne, than he that wolde saye thus, as many men saye in dede: Euyn they that go now full fresshe, in theyr garded hosyn, and theyr gaye golden reuen shyrtes, and in theyr sylken sle­uys, that nought haue to bere it out but gamynge, wyll ones I warraūt you fall fro gamynge to stelynge, & start strayt out of sylke into hempe. Thus sayeth and thus iudgeth ye wote well many a man / and yet me­neth not that it shall so mysse happe them all, but that some shall amende and do better / and that yet hys worde wyll be veryfyed in many, & so doth it proue in dede / and he that so sayth before, is farre inough fro the dayn­geour [Page] of all those textes whych this good man precheth to me.

¶But than he sayth ferther, that he trusteth that those prelates whom I saye I durste warraunt to be of such mynde, wyll not dyfferre theyr good purpose for no suche suspycyon that happely wyll neuer come, ne yet for no such vncherytable wordꝭ, though they were spoken in dede. And ther­vppon he descendeth to the makyng of actys of perleament.

¶If those prelates that I mene of rekened them self very sure, yt all the wytte and the lernynge that is in the worlde, or within this realme eyther, were eyther in theyr owne hedys, or in this good mānes and myne / which peraduenture for myne owne mynde colde agre well with this good man in this poynt, and aduise those prela­tes that I speke of, to folowe theyr owne mynde therin, and out of hande euyn so to do: thā haue I lytell dowt [Page lxviii] but that they wold euyn so do in dede But some of them haue ofter ben as I suppose than onys, where they haue herde both wyse and good folke to, and peraduenture yet sholde here agayne yf it were as thys man wold haue it, spoken of in the playne open perleament, that wolde not fayle to dyssuade it, and laye no lytell cau­ses why.

¶But I wyl not at this tyme with this good man entre in this mater, in to seryouse ernest argumentes. But I shall shew hym a good mery cause wherfore, that though I be of hys mynde therin, yet I dare not aduise them there to. The cause is, that I se them haue so greate desyre & fer­uent concupyscence towarde it, that I am aferde to counsayle theym fo­lowe it, bycause of the scrypture that sayth, Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas. After thy concupyscences goo thou not.

[Page]¶I wyll make no lenger tale vpon this mater. For if you rede my .xxvii. chapyter, in whyche my wordes are that we now dyspute vppon: I truste you shall not thynke theym so very farre out of the way, but yt they maye be wryten, without offence of Chrystes gospell well inough.

¶And also concernynge this word, proude worldely countenaūce, wherof we speke here: vouchesaufe good readers to rede my .xxx. chapyter of myne apologye, whych begynneth in the lefe .174.

The .xi. chapyter.

HIs .xi. chapyter begynneth in the xxxvi. lefe / wherin fyrst he shew­eth yt I reherse ryght, and con­stre amysse thys worde of his. And therfore.

[Page lxix]¶You shall fynde my wordes good readers vppon these whole wordes that he reherseth here, in the .xxxiiii. and .xxxv. chapyter of myne apolo­gye / of whyche to tone begyyneth fo. 183 / & the tother begynneth fo. 184.

¶Here this man declareth that the worde of his boke, whyche here also he well & trewly reherseth, do not importe that hym selfe sayeth ye thyng whych I by those wordes, and amōg other by thys worde therfore / afferme there that he sayth as of hym selfe / But he sayeth that the wordes proue playne, that he sayeth yt, but onely of the reporte of mych other folkes thynkynge, and not as of hys owne sayenge.

¶Surely neyther nowe, nor in any place of myne apologye, I ney­ther haue done nor intende to charge thys man, that his mynde & purpose was suche in his intent, as the great lykelyhed of his wordes, wold geue [Page] men occasyon to thynke. But vn the tother syde, that the wordes haue geuyn me good occasyon and suffycyent, to saye as I there haue sayde: who so rede the sayd two chapyters of myne apologye, shal by the whole cyrcumstaūce of the mater very wel I suppose perceyue. And you shall ouer that, yf after those two chapy­ters redde, you retourne to his owne declaracyon here in hys .xi. chapyter, wel perceyue also that to kouer slyly that ouersyghte of his (for surely I thynke yt was none other) he leueth oute properly in one place this worde therfore wheruppon a good pyece of all the mater hangeth. For in the ende of the .xxvi. lefe so, thus he hande­leth wylyly the mater.

And in that he sayth, that I saye playnely those worde [...] my seflfe / he sayth playnely agaynste the [...]etter of the sayde treatyse / whyche ye that they haue punished many persō [...], which mych peple haue iudged them to do vppon wyll / and not that I sayd so my selfe.

¶Now good readers in this reher­sall [Page lxx] of hys own worde, he reherseth his own wordes wrong. For here he leueth oute as I told you the worde that maketh the mater. Whyche he rehersed hym self in the whole con­text before. For his wordis were not, that they haue punished many persons, whych mych peple haue iuged them to do vpon wyl, but that therfore they haue punyshed many persons / whyche mych people haue iudged them to do vppon wyl &c. Nowe when he sayth hym selfe that they haue punyshed many therfore, that is to wyt for the same cause, and hathe before also shewed a cause of his owne dyuynacyon to, & hath vsed the same word therfore in ye same fasshyon before / and this worde therfore which sygnifyeth for the same cause, hath here in his laste clause noneces­sarye place to the complement of the sentence folowyng: it appereth that he sayth therin two thynges, bothe that they therfore, that is to say for ye same cause next before spokē of, the cause yt him self ther imagineth, haue [Page] punished many / and also that (as he sayth yt so) myche people iudged the same.

¶And this shall you the more clere­ly marke, yf you tourne these wor­des. And therfore they haue pu­nyshed many whyche myche people &c. in to these wordꝭ (wherof the sentence is allone) And for that cause they haue punyshed many whyche myche people &c.

¶And therfore, that is to saye for that cause whych I before told you, that is to wyt that you shold not per­ceyue thys poynte, this man in hys laste rehershall as you haue herde, bryngynge the thynge to the tryall, lefte his therfore oute. But reade my sayd two chapyters / & than as for the sentence of his open wordes, I trust you shall byleue me. As for the se­crete meanyng of his mynde, I pray you byleue hym. For so that you by­leue not the shrewd wordes of hys [Page lxxi] boke, I wolde to chose you sholde byleue well of the good man hym selfe.

¶Now where he saith in ye .xxxvii. lefe, that he thynketh I chaunge his mater, bycause I wolde be lothe to haue yt reported, that myche people take yt so: veryly I chaunge not his mater. But trouth yt is yt I am loth to haue that thyng so reported about. For trewly ye report abrode is nought all though yt were not vntrew.

¶And were as for the farther maintenaunce of hys mater, he sayth that yf I make serche therin to knowe the trouthe, I shall fynde that myche people take yt so, that many whyche haue ben punyshed for heresye, the spyrytualtye haue done yt of no loue but of wyll, for such euyll mynde as in the booke ys there ymagyned of them: he hath of lykelyhed hym selfe made serche to fynde yt so. For as for me though I go not aboute to serche [Page] that poynte of purpose: yet I haue talked wyth many one in this meane whyle, & yet I thāke god it is not my fortune to fynde out that same mych people that take yt so. And yf there were myche people that so dyd, yt were theyre owne faute / wherin I can not deuyse what the spyrytualty myght do to chaunge theym, but one­ly praye god to mende theym.

And as for me, yf there were myche people that so toke yt, as I truste in god veryly there is not: I wolde as my dutye were be surely very so­rye for theym / but in thys cause of trouth, trewely I wolde not flater theym. For though that sorte of peo­ple were neuer so myche in dede: yet is the trouth in that poynt so clere a­gaynste theym, that yf theyre myn­des were suche, yt were bothe great shame for theym to saye yt, and al­so great synne to thynke yt.

¶And surely that theyre sayenge [Page lxxii] ys false and noughte in hys owne se­crete iudgement: you maye se good reders by this yt he laboureth so sore to put yt from hym selfe, and wolde be so lothe to haue yt taken for hys owne. And therfore whyle hym selfe thought theyre sayeng so false, he sholde not haue told yt after them. Nor nowe sholde he not sende me to serche and seke theym, but to saue hys owne honesty / leste men myght thynke he fayned, he sholde seke out & brynge forthe some of those shrewd sayers hym selfe.

¶ A nother thynge thys man tou­cheth in the same chapyter, concer­nynge that seconde sorte of people whome I saye in some places of myne Apologye, that thys man cal­leth polytyques. And here he decla­reth that he doth not so / and proueth yt by lyke wordes spoken of a good mannys mouthe by an hypocryte, of whome a man maye say: Thys [Page] man vseth hym self as he were a vertuouse man / and yet cal hym not vertuouse. And so myght this man saye yt they spake heresyes as of polycye, and yet call theym not polytyque.

¶But here must he now consyder, yt who so speke suche wordes in such fashyon by an hyprycryte, sayth yt in hys desprayse and in detestacyon of suche hypocrysye / and therfore he that so sayeth, sheweth y by such wordes he taketh not ye hypocrite for vertuouse. And therfore reade good readers this mannys whole processe of hys thre sortes of people to gether, whych you shall fynde in the .xxi. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 123 / and then yf you fynd his wordes of theyr spekyng [...] suche heresyes as of polycye, in lyke maner spoken by hym in dysprayse of heretyques, as he put­teth here his sample of those wordes spoken by a good man in dysprayse of hypocrites / & not spoken by a way [Page] of geuynge theym by that worde as of polycye a colourable excuse for de­fence of sewynge theyre heresye: than am I contente, that euery man take yt that I mysse reporte hym shamefully. And ellys I truste loke in all the places in whyche I speke therof, and you shal soon iudge, that vpppon hys wordes vsed to suche purpose as he there vseth theym: I may wel vse the wordꝭ of hys polytykes in suche wyse [...]as I vse yt.

¶And as for the tynkar and the ty­ler, that he speketh of in the ende of the chapyter / and sayth god forbede but that they [...] were dysmyssed and wente home aboute theyr besynesse, yf they can by any reasonable and trewe allegeaunce, so order theym selfe, that yt maye appere that they oughte to be dysmyssed of iustyce: therin holde I well wyth hym and god forbede ellys to / for els myghte they lese betwene theym, the tone the [...] [Page] [...] [Page] [Page] pryce of hys trewell, and the tother of his clouted ketyll. But loke good readers in myne Apology the .xlviii. chapyter, whych begynneth fo. 272 / and that done, I doute not but you shall fynde for the tylare and the tynkare / for heresy there called in of of­fyce, this good word so spoken here, but a very vayne worde of offyce / and that the tynkare wolde haue tyn­ked oute of hys pannes botome, a reason that wolde at the leste wyse rynge a lytle better then thys.

The .xii. chapyter.

HIs .xii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxviii. lefe / whych bycause yt ys a good swete sermone & a shorte, made vnto my selfe, to put me in remem­braunce howe I shold [...]ere the lyke [Page lxxiiii] lyght fautꝭ of other men, as I some tyme fall in my self: I shal take his chapyter in here euyn hole. Lo good readers thus yt sayth.

MAyster More in the .217. lefe of hys Apology, speking of defautes, that as he thynketh, shulde haue ben leyde for causes of thys dyuysyon, concludeth thus: If there be such a dyuysyō: wherby it appereth that he doubteth, whether there be any diuysyon or not: for this coniunccion, yf, purporteth alway a doubte. And after in the same Apologye, fo. 241. he confesseth playnely, that there is a dyuysyon / and maketh no doute at yt: and he calleth yt there the late spronge dyuysyon. And so in one place to make a doute, whether there be suche a dyuysyon or not / and in a nother place to agre, that there ys suche a dyuysyon / semeth to be a varyaunce and contradyccyon in yt selfe: howe be yt surely I do not intende to laye that varyaunce to hym as for any notable defaute: For a lyke thynge may soon happen in any man by a lyght ouersyght. But the cause why I speke of yt is this, to put hym in remēbraunce / that he hereafter ought the rather to beare suche lyghte defaute [...] of o [...]her the more charytably / syth he hym selfe hath lyke wyse ben oue [...] sene. For we be all [...]rayle ignorant and vnstable / though we be estymed and taken as angels in cure conuersacyon. And therfore ys yt sayde in the fyrste boke of the folowynge of Cryste the .xvi. chapyter, that no man is in this worlde wythout defaute, no man wytho [...]te burden, no man suffycyent to hym selfe, no man wyse ynough of hym selfe. Wherfore yt beh [...]ueth eche one of vs to beare the burden of [Page] other, to comforte other, to helpe other, to enform [...] other, and to instructe and admonysh other in al charytie. And yf we wyll note well the sayde wordes, we shall the sooner lerne thys lesson / to do in al thynges as we wolde be done to: and to do nothyng that we wold not haue done to be. And that is as I tak [...] yt one of the moste souerayne doctrynes that is / to instructe a man how he shall in e [...]ery thynge conce [...] ­nynge hys neyghbour, kepe hym selfe in a clere conscyence, lerne yt who so may [...].

¶Lo good readers, fyrste he bryn­geth forth myne ouersyght, in contradyccyon vsed betwene myne owne wordes / and after wyth good wor­des and fayre, excuseth my faute, by suche ouersyght of frayltye as maye soone happen in a man. And then he putt [...]th me after in remembraunce, that I muste bere suche thynges the more charitably in other men, syth I am ouersene lykewyse my selfe. He fareth in all this tale, as though we sat to gether playeng at post. For fyrste he casteth my contradiccion as a vye, to wyt whyther I wold geue yt ouer with a face. And bycause that wyll not be, falleth after to treatye, [Page lxxv] and wold fay [...]e parte the stacke, and diuide all such ouersyghtes betwene vs. But all this is in vayne / for I am as sure of this game and there lay vppon yt, as he that hathe thre acys in his hande.

¶For loke good readers in his own fyrste chapyter of thys booke of hys and there shall you se the thyng tha [...] shall serue me, suffycyently shew [...] euyn by hys owne wordes, that there ys no suche contradyccyon in myne. And than loke myne auswere to the same / and than shall you se yt yet more clerely. Or ellys yf any man be lothe to tourne the leuys, and loke bakke: ye shall nede to take no be­synesse in tournynge bakke at all. For he soyleth hys argument hym selfe agaynste hym selfe, euyn in the makynge therof, and all wyth one worde vnware.

¶For nowe rede yt agayne / and you shall se that he sayeth hym selfe, [Page] in the tone place I saye, If there be any suche dyuysyon. And so bycause thys coniunccyon If, he sayth inpor­teth all waye a doute: therfore he sayth that fo .217. I doute whyther there be any suche dyuysyon or not. And after he sayth that in the tother place I confesse that there ys a dy­uysyon / and call yt there the late sprongen dyuysyon. Lo nowe he for­getteth thys lytle shorte worde, this monasyllable, Suche, whych he rehersed fyrste in bryngynge forthe my fyrste place / and then by and by, ey­ther of forgetefulnes or ellys of wylynesse, leueth oute in hys illacyon that he maketh vppon the same wordes of myne.

¶Nowe good readers you se well that to saye there is a dyuysyon, and to saye there ys no suche dyuysyon, be nothynge contrarye at all. For I dyd in dede not deny but that some dyuysyon there was, that ys to wytte [Page lxxvi] some lytle varyaunce in some place begonne, and by some fewe naughtye folke blowne forthe to farre (For a lytle waye ys to farre in suche a thyng). But than meane I a dyuysyon such as yt ys, not suche a dyuysyon as thys man by hys booke maketh yt. I maye well wythoute contradyccyon saye to hym, There ys a dyuysyon / and yet saye that there ys no suche dyuysyon as he speketh of. For yt is not all one to saye there ys a dyuysyon, and [...]o saye there ys suche a dyuysyon.

¶Nowe yf I wolde stycke wyth hym vpon tryflys: I coulde proue hym that If, dothe not alwaye purporte a doute, as he sayeth that yt alwaye dothe, but ys sometyme vsed to conferme a certayntye. As yf a man say he that dyeth in dedely synne shal go to the deuyll, yf goddes word be trewe, douteth not of the trouthe [Page] of goddes worde / but by the trouthe therof, meaneth to cōferme the damnacyon of theym that dye in dedely synne.

¶But I saye not this as though yt sholde be lyke in myne. For I do not in dede take If there in such fashion. And therfore I wyll not do here by If, as thys man doth by As, in hys chapyter nexte byfore, in heresyes spoken as of polycye / vsynge ye sample of wordes spoken by a good man in reprochynge of hypocrysee, to be lyke hys owne wordes spoken in the mynyshynge of theyre blame, that vnder suche pretexte of polycye / wolde speke and sow aboute playne and open heresye. I nede here no suche wayes for my wordes. For here haue you sene your selfe by his owne wordes, that there ys in my wordes, no contradyccyon at all.

The .xiii. chapyter.

HIs .xiii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxix. lefe / and by ye rehersynge of diuerse wor­des of his owne in dyuers other places of his boke, here he declareth his mynde that he entended not in his boke of diuysyon, to brynge in among the people any hatered agaynste the spyrytualtye.

¶Now in dede I do my self declare expressely, in many places of myne apologye, that what so euer wordes I speke therin, yet I ment euer more thentent of hys boke and not of hys person. And all though that in some places I say the pacyfyer here doth this or that, to this euyll purpose or that: yet I mene euer, the dede his, the malyce of the purpose some other [Page] wyly shrewys / whyche not beynge fully of so good catholyke mynde as I thynke all waye this man is hym self (which openly dysprayseth these new broched heresyes, and with de­testacyon of them reherseth them by name) haue abused his playn simplycyte / makyng him wene good sowle, yu while he dyd put in of his own good mynde, these good wordes whych he reherseth here, and with them here & there in some sondry places pretyly powder ye boke, it coulde not be taken that there were any hurt ment in the hole worke togyther, how euyll wordes and how malycyouse so euer the sotle shrewys made hym stuffe vp ye boke with bysyde. Was not that a synful wily way of thē, to begyle a good symple soule so? For I wysse it is eth to se, that yf the good man were not of hym self very simple & playn, those dowble wyly shrewes coulde neuer deceyue hym so, as to make [Page lxxviii] hym wene that these wordes whych he reherseth here in his .xiii. chapy­ter, were any maner token that his boke of diuisyon, ment not to brynge the clergye in hatered amonge the people.

¶For who were there that so inten­dynge, wolde yet for shame vtterly say that there were none good / and not rather to kepe his credence in slawnderynge the body, wolde caste in sometyme an excepcyon of some? In suche crafte is no great sleyght. It is but a comen playne poynt, and as easy to spye as a longe nose vpon a lytell face / specyally whyle as cle­rely as he sayth that there be many good, yet as you maye se folio .238. of myne apology, he sayth playnely that it is harde to fynde any one, with out that poynt, that (yf he saye therin trew) the very beste is very nought, and as badde as a very beste.

[Page]And for ye ferther profe of this point, rede myne answere to hys .xvii. cha­pyter in thys boke.

¶And where he speketh here of the fere that he wold euery man sholde haue of the leste censures of the chyrche, as though he therin ment myche the fauour of spyrytuall men: con­syder the place euyn here in hys new boke, where he speketh of inquysy­cyons o [...] heresyes in his .xvii. chapy­ter, and you shall well perceyue that they that made hym there put those wordes in, ment lytell good to ye cler­gye. For it is there layed in a mater full chyldyshly to theyr charge / as though they wolde haue all the iustyces of the peace and all the iuryes of the realme, accursed for enquyrynge of heresye.

¶But yet is it of all thyngꝭ a v [...]ry specyall pleasure to se how he vseth here for a playne apparent profe of hys good mynde towarde the spyry­tualty, [Page lxxix] that he wisheth wel for them, and prayeth god to sende them habū ­dauntely zele of sowles, pitye, good doctryne, and deuowt prayour. And sayth that than a new lyght of grace sholde shortely shyne &c. and that he sayth also, that it is great pytye and mych to be lamented, that the spyry­tualtye do not faste and praye and do other good dedes, to ceace the dyuy­syon withall / but yt all that euer they do therin moste comenly, is that they take it that they that fynde defawte at theyr abusyons and mysse order, loue no prestes / but do all of malyce that they do, to destroye the chyrche and to haue theyr goodes and posses­syons them selfe / and that therfore the clergye thynke it a good dede to se them punyshed / and therfore (that is to saye for that same cause) haue they punyshed many persons, which mych people iudge to haue ben done of wyll &c. And sayth also that they [Page] do cōtinue styl after theyr old course, pretēdyng by cōfederacyes, worldly polycye, and strayte correccyons, to rule the peple / where he vseth these thynges whyche I haue here reher­sed out of his .xiii. chapiter of this his newe boke, and somwhat made them more playne, with addyng therto his owne other wordes wryten in his di­uysyon / as you maye rede in myne apologye fo. 158. in the .xxvi. chapy­ter, and answered there at length, in the same chapyter and diuerse other in order there ensuyng, of which this man hath answered to some very ly­tell, and to the moste parte and the chyefe parte no thynge: now is he so symple, that he vseth the same thyn­ges / for a profe that he bereth the clergye very good wyll and mindeth not to brynge them in ob [...]oquy / why­che he wold we shold take for a thing playnely proued, bycause he pytyeth & lamenteth theym therin, and so bytterly [Page lxxx] prayeth god to make them good and amende them.

¶Thys good man many tymes ta­keth recorde of his owne conscyence that he meneth well, in suche thyngꝭ as his wordes make many good men wene, that he ment very nought.

And therfore wyll I now be bolde in thys poynt, to take recorde of hys owne conscyence, whyther hym self, yf one that knewe hys name, wold wryte suche a worke so to wchynge hym, as hys wurke of dyuysyon toucheth there the clergye / and wold therin vnder so many Some sayes, say that he were as euyll as he saith there that they be (for worse coulde lyghtely no man saye) wolde hym selfe hold hym satysfyed, and thynke that ye wryter ment hym none harme, bycause he powdered hys shrewde slaunderouse some sayes, wyth la­mentynge and pityenge that the man is no better.

[Page]And wold he wene by his trouth, that the wryter ment not to cal him grace­lesse, bycause he prayed god habun­dauntely to sende hym grace? nor to call hym witlesse, bycause he prayeth god send hym wyt? Surely yf he can thynke so: than shall he well shewe hym selfe so simple a sowle, as men may well se that some wily shrewys begyle hym. And on the tother syde yf he be wyser than to thynke so: thā he well sheweth hym self more wily in thys same .xiii. chapyter of hys, than to meane so well in his wurcke of dyuysyon as he wolde here make men wene.

¶Now where he saith these wordꝭ Also I saye not in all the sayde treatyse, that the spyrytua [...]tye make confederacyes agaynste the tempo­raltye / but I saye that they contynue styll after the olde course, in not doynge good dedes / but preten­dyng by confederacyes, worldely polycye, & straight correccyons, to rule the people.

Who coulde wryte thus, but eyther he that were a man of very innocent symplenesse, or he that entendeth to [Page lxxxi] mocke of a shrewd wily dowblenese For (sauynge that hys worde pretendyng signifyeth not in dede the thyng that he for lacke of language preten­deth here therby) to go aboute not to do good to the people, but by confederacyes with wylynesse and strayght correccyons, to rule the peple: what thynge calleth he this but confedera­cyes agaynst the people.

¶How be it syth thys chapyter goth but to the dyschargynge of hys owne personall entent, that he ment not hym selfe malycyously what so euer hys booke speke: I wyll not therfore wrestle agaynst it mych, but wolde he were well byleued in that thynge. But yet yf you rede the pla­ces of myne apologye, and compare them with such partes of hys boke as I there speke of: ye shall well and clerely se, that though the manne in his own mynde ment it not him self, yet the thynge that I saye was the [Page] menynge of hys boke.

The .xiiii. chapyter.

HIs .xiiii chapyter begynneth in the xiii. lefe. In the begynnyng ther­of he laboreth to proue that he dyd not (as I in myne apologye, saye that he dyd) go about in his boke of diuysyon, to make men wene that the spyrytual iudgꝭ in this realme handeled men for heresye so cruelly, that all the worlde had cause to wonder and grudge therat / which thynge that I shold so say, this good man myche meruayleth at.

For I sayed no more (sayth he) But that it were pitie it sholde be so, and that it sholde be trewe that is re­ported, that there sholde be such a desyre in spyry­tuall men to haue men [...]biure, or to haue men haue extreme punyshement for heresye / as it is sayde [...] that there is.

¶Rede good reders the .xlv. chapyter of myne apologye begynnyng fo. [Page lxxxii] 243 [...] and than shall you fynde this answere of his a very bare naked thing This mā answereth here as though he trusted that all the worlde were woodcokkys saue hym self / and that hys fayre fygure of some saye, were so wylyly founde, that men had not the wytte to se therby what his booke meneth, & what wurke it goth about. But this I dowte not, but that yf eyther hym self or such another man, wolde deuise me suche another boke, eyther agaynste the nobylyte of the realme, or agaynste the iudges of the same, or agaynste the hygh court of perleament it self, which were soone done yf a man in lyke wyse lyste to slaunder & to bylye them / nor it could not I wote wel what so euer he sayd therin, be lyghty wurse or more false thanne that booke of hys dyuysyon, concernynge the poynt that we speke of, that is to wyt thys false slaunder of the spyrytuall iudges in mysse handelynge [Page] men for heresye, as it hath ofter than ones before the lordes of the kynges most honorable coūsayle vpon lyke false bylles and cōplayn­tes of partyculare persons by good examynacion ben proued / and than if he that wolde make I say of the no­bylyte, the iudges, or the perleamēt, suche another boke wolde brynge in all his false talys agaynst them vn­der the selfe same fayre fygure of some say, and many say, & they saye / and than say that hym selfe wold say no piece therof, but onely that it were pytie that it sholde be trewe, that it were so as many folke reportei is so, and than preche and pray god send them the grace that they do not so: I dare be bolde to saye that there is no wyse man, but he wolde bothe soone se and saye, that the man wyth suche false lesynges went about to dyffa­me and slaunder them, and make the people wene that it were so.

[Page lxxxiii]¶Than after this thynge so fetely skused: he declareth hys wordes a­gayne, whyche he spake in his dyuy­syon of spekynge heresyes of lyght­nesse, or of a passyon. And bycause I answered hym in myne apolygye, yt yf such thynges shold be excused by lyghtnesse & by passyons, than myght there passe by myche lewdenesse and myche myschyef to / the begynnynge wherof groweth of lewd lyghtnesse & of euyll passyons: herin he sheweth that there is dyfference in dedys, and yt some be more & some be lesse. And bycause I did put for samples, man­slaughter and aduowter, whiche he thought was to high to be lykened to spekyng & talkyng heresye: he bryn­geth it somwhat agayne to bace, and putteth other sāples of one spekyng an angry worde, & yet wolde not kyll one / & one yt hath a passion of aduow­try, & yet doth not the dede / & sayth yt his treatise ment not obstinate dedely [Page] passyons, but passyons of ignor [...]unce & of frayltie, & done for lacke or good aduisement.

¶As for his passyon of ignoraunce, he may put vp agayne. For what so euer he say, he shall not fynde I dare warraunt hym whyle he lyueth, but that the thynges that heretykes are punyshed for, be such thynges as be well & openly knowen for heresyes, & to haue ben before condempned for heresyes by the comen knowen doc­tryne of the whole catholyke chyrch.

¶Now as touchynge hys passyons for frayeltye & for lacke of good aduisement: doth there no man kyll a no­ther euyn sodaynly vppon a passyon of angre, for lacke of good aduise­mēt? doth neuer none vnthryftes vppon a passyon of lechery, sodaynly fall together in aduowtry for lacke of good aduisement?

¶Ye wyll this man saye, but these fo [...]ke do ye dede. That is very trouth in dede. But yet they do the dede, but [Page lxxxiiii] of a passyon of frayltye, for lacke of good aduisement. In yt aduou [...]ry, the malyce is the lacke of goodnesse in ye wyl to ye kepyng of goddꝭ cōmaūde­mentes ¶And yet euyn in those pas­syons to, though the ferther dede be not done, no man neyther kylled nor stryken, nor none aduowtry done in dede, though the lawes of the worlde for lacke of power to loke into y [...]ar­te, can not punyshe the bare entent of suche thynges: yet our sauyour saith hym selfe very sore wordes therin, and sayth that hym selfe taketh theyr wylles for theyr dedys.

¶But now in heresye the wordes be the worke. For not onely the spe­kyng, but also the defendyng therof, is in wordes to.

¶But a man sayth he, maye speke heresye of lyghtnesse, & of a passyō of frayltye, & yet not entend [...] to fall fro the fayth. So may a man speke very lewde and rygh [...]e traytorouse wor­des by hys prynce to, of a passyon [Page] and of a frayltye, without an inward entent and purpose to procure his de­struccyon. But than wyll this man peraduenture say, that than be suche wordes yet no treason, without some maner of ouert & open actuall dede therwith. Whyther they be treason or not, yet in any englysshe boke that I wold put in prente, I wolde as thus aduised, aduise euery man for fere of treason, beware of all suche lewd language / and not vnder colour to teche the iudgys theyr part, go tell the peo­ple without necessyte, yt though they talke traytorouse wordes, yet it ys no treason, as this good man in hys booke of diuysyon telleth them, that to talke heresyes is none heresye

¶Nowe as I sayed before, con­cernynge heresye whyche is the trea­son to god, the outwarde acte therof by whyche men muste iudge why­ther the manne fall fro the fayth or not, standeth in the wordes. And [Page lxxxv] therfore both wysedome and reason wyll, that folke well be ware vpon the parell of heresye, that they for­bere all talkyng of heresye, as maye declare theyr mynde that they byleue suche heresye.

¶That I wyl well agre wyl this good man say. But than I wolde they sholde be ware, by meane of charytable warnynge geuen to theyr persons. I wolde veryly wene, yt in a matter so heyghnouse and of suche weyght, wherof so mych harme may growe by the sufferaunce, the spyry­tuall lawe that geueth hym leue to abiure at the fyrste, and in so great a cryme saueth ones his lyfe, geueth hym a warnynge as charytable and as larg, as in a cryme so perylous reson cā wel bere. And yt shold we soon fele, yf we wolde geue the lyke ly bertye for ones warnynge, to euery lesse cryme than that / & shal shortly fele it in heresyes, if besydes tha [...] we [Page] geue theym lesse fere and more lybertye in bolde talkynge and teachynge without other parel than warnynge.

¶For as for the order of warnynge that this man here prouydeth, in this xiiii. chapyter of his newe boke, ta­kynge a coloure and a pretexte of the gospell of Chryste, that speketh of an order of monycyons, requyrynge a tracte of tyme, before any open de­nuncyacyon: I wyl not mych stycke vpon. For I purpose not to make a longe processe vpppon euery founde pyece of his dyuyses, wherin thye good man is content to lese tyme and spyl paper. But I wyl say this and say trouth, that thordinaryes, of this order that he speketh, do vse in dede as myche as may wel be borne, and sometyme I fere me more to.

¶ For thys muste thys good man vnd [...]rstande, that thys good softe slowe sober order, that he descrybeth here, may not all, & alway, be kept, [Page lxxxvi] neyther in heresye nor treason, nor some other great crymes neyther, wythoute great hurte and damage to the comen weale, and vtter losse and destruccyon of many a good symple soule, that sholde by thys order alwaye kepte, paryshe in the meane whyle.

¶Nor our sauyour ment not in hys wordes, that if I wyst one that were walkynge aboute myschyefe, that wolde go geue such drynke about as shold poysen them that dronke ther­of, that thanne I sholde vse all that tracte of time, rather then cause hym be taken vp by tyme at the fyrst sope that I se him geue any man to syppe vpon. Nor that tract is not therfore to be vsed wyth them, that speke and boldely talke heresyes about, & ther­by do plainly teche them, though they byd not ye herers lerne them. For (as saynte Poule speketh of suche heresyes) euyl cōmunicacion corrupteth good maners. [...] [Page] [...] [Page lxxxvi] [Page] whyche wordes though the greke poete Menāder ment by the communycacyō of other fleshely lewdnesse: yet the blessed apostle vsed them and applyed theym specially, to the lewd communycacyon of heresyes, whych wyth suche bolde noughty talkynge crepeth forth and corrupted (as saint Poule also sayth) lyke a corrupt canker. And therfore as I saye, suche a lōg sober tracte before theyr callyng by the ordynarye course of ye law, as not alwaye to be vsed of necessyte wyth euery suche maner man, and let theym poysen other good symple soules in the meane season, whyche they may do percase with suche communycacyon, though they neyther mynded in theyr owne harte, to make any other men heretykes, nor to be he retyques theym selfe.

¶And yet wolde there besyde this, some suche as well wyste theyr myscheuouse dealyng to be suche, and so [Page lxxxv] wel able to be playnly proued, as the ordinarye coulde not without goddes dyspleasure let theym after passe vnpunyshed / wolde at the fyrste worde spoken by the ordynarye to hym at large, flyt oute of that place / and as I haue in myne Apologye sayd, and as we se yt often proued, go kepe lyke scoles in a nother.

¶ But yet because I haue herd say euen whyle I was wrytynge thys, that the myld sober order whych this good man hath here in this chapyter dyuysed, is very wel lyked, and hath bene wel praysed wyth some suche folke as my self haue had some cōmunycacyon with ere this: I wyl ther­fore not hyde yt nor kepe yt awaye from you, but geue you good reders here euen his owne wordes, fo. 45. he sayth.

And nowe wyll I saye a lytle farther in this mater / concernynge suche wordes, that ys to say, that yf any man now in thys daungerous tyme, whyle this dyuysyon contynueth, wyll shew vnto the ordynary [Page] that he herde any speke wordes, that as he thought s [...]ode not wyth the catholyque faythe / and the ordynarye mysse lyketh the wordes also: I wolde than thynke / that yf he vppon whome the informacyon is made, be suche a man / that he that complayneth of hym may conueniently speke to hym wythout daunger / that than the ordynarye shal ad­uyse hym to kepe the mater secrete, yf yt be yet se­crete / and not openly knowen: and that he shall than charytable aske of hym / what he ment by these worde [...]. And than when the questyon is asked hym, yf he make so reasonable an answere / that yt soun­deth [...]o no heresye / than is the mater answered. And yf he auowe the wordes / and yet they be in dede a­gaynst the catholyque fayth: than yt semeth good / that he that accused hym, folowe the gospell / and take wytnesse wyth hym / and efte charytably gyue hym monycyon therof. And yf he wyll yet stande styll opynatynely in his opynyon / and not accept the good monycyon of the other: than I thynke it good that he agayne informe the ordynarye therof / and than yt semeth to be conuenyent that the ordynarye sende for hym / not as for a man yet notoryousely knowen or detected for an heretyque / but to knowe farther, whether yt be trew as the other hath reported or not: and yf he fynde yt trewe by suffycyent profe / or by hys owne confessyon and he wyll not be reformed, than yt semeth couenyent / that he vppon the wytnes of the other / be p [...]nyshed as he hath des [...]ued. And yf he wyll be by the ordynary secretely reformed: then yt semeth good, yt he depart without any o [...]n penaunce: but what were conuenient to be ther b [...]ne in that mater, I wyll cōmytte yt to other.

¶ Consyder now good readers the cōmodile of this order. You se that he [Page lxxxviii] speketh of one that speketh such wordes, as to the herers seme heresye. For both he so taketh them that informeth thordinary of them, and so doth thordynarye to. Nowe may you per­ceyue by the progresse of his deuyce, that though there were mo thān one that herd hym, or mo than twayne, or tenne eyther: yet wold he not that the ordinary shold send for him / but fyrst assay by some such as herd him, what he wyll saye there to when he ys as­ked the questyon what thynge hym selfe m [...] ̄t therby. And then if he haue the wyt to say yt he ment in his wordꝭ but suche a thynge as that meanynge soundeth to none heresies (which wit heretykes ynough haue) than ys all the mater answered. For thā ye wote wel a wyly heretyque by this wyse order, may be bolde with gloses redy proued, so saye what he wyll and where he wyll. For the ordynarye maye not sende for hym to laye those [Page] [...]eretycal wordes to his charge, and to consyder vpon the cyrcumstaunce of his dealynge in suche talkynge, peraduenture in diuerse places vsed whether he ment as hym selfe declareth yt, or ment to teache the thynge that he spake, and to hepe his decla­racyō in store for a scuse. This fyrst poynte alone of thys good mannys order yf yt were surely obserued, were ynough to fyl an whole towne shortely ful of heresyes.

¶Than goth he farther to a second poynte, that yf he that spake here­syes, wyl when he is asked the que­styon auowe theym: yet shal not he that herd hym resorte vnto thordynarye but go fetche wytnesses fyrste, before whome yf the felow be so fo­lysh to confesse them, and so frantike as to auow them, than this good mā geueth theym leue to go tell thordynarye the tale and accuse hym. But nowe yf he haue the wytte byfore the [Page lxxxix] wytnesses to lye and saye that he ne­uer sayd theym, or to saye that he wil saye so no more: then is all the mate [...] yet saufe ynough agayne / it shall ne­uer nede that euer the ordynary here any more worde of hym / but let hym go forthe and vse that fashyon styll, in as many companyes as he cometh. For that ye wote wel can do no hurt. But and yf euery man to whome he speketh heresye secretly, and secretely wolde make mo heretyques, shold secretely enforme the ordynarye / & that he sholde vpon .xx. suche se­crete informacyons, afterwarde call hym forthe openly, and after vppon theyre open deposycyons, openly make hym abiure, and beare a fagot or accurse hym for hys obstynacye / and after an whole yeres sufferaūce fynally for his immedicable malyce, as a desperate wreche delyuere hym to the seculare handes, where a fa­gotte sholde beare hym: thys were a [Page] cruell delynge of the ordynarye, and a mysse handelynge of a good honest man for heresye.

¶And yet goeth he farther a lytle, that though he holde yt and auow his heresyes afore the witnesses: thordynarye sholde not yet for all that pro­cede agaynst hym openly, but speke with hym secretely. And though he auow theym before hym selfe to: yet sholde he not by thys good mannys aduyse, procede agaynste [...] hym by ordynarye meanes openly, but let hym departe wythoute open penaunce, yf the felowe be so wyse as at laste (ra­ther than he wolde come therto) saye that he wyl amēde and wyll say such thynges no more.

But than after al this, what were conuenyent to be farther done he wil he sayth [...]emyt vnto other men. And so were yt myche nede in dede. How be yt yf this order that he deuyse [...]h here, were wel obserued for so farre [Page xc] forthe as he goeth: I wene all the worlde coulde not well deuyse far­ther, suffycyentely to reforme and remedy the myschyefe that hys cha­rytable deuyse wolde do.

¶How be it the beste is therin, that he deuyseth not this order for a thing to stande for euer / but for this tyme now he saith which is he sayth a daungerouse tyme, whyle thys dyuyuysyon contynueth.

¶But nowe so is yt good readers that whether this tyme be so daungerouse as he speketh of or no, or whe­ther there be in this tyme suche dyuysyon as he maketh or no: sure it is I saye, that euyn in this same tyme he­resyes begyn to growe a great deale faster than they haue bene wont in some other tymes past / and therfore is this tyme so mych the worse to vse [...]uch order in, thā were a nother time, wherin there were many fewer.

For yf this pacyfyer wyl nowe be so [Page] peasyble, as to deuise such an order y al myscheuous factyous folke shold be suffered in peace: he shall wyth his peasyble order (yf yt were obserued) brynge the worlde in that case, that good peasyble folke that fayne wold lyue in peace, shold not for such inquiete and vnrestful wreches without some rufle lyue in peace longe.

¶Were it not a wise order wene you if he wold in like wise deuyse for the­uys the same softe charytable fashy­on that he deuiseth here for heretikis? that is to wyt that men shold to hym that had stolen an horse, or robbed an house, go geue hym a monicyon fyrst and then yf he saye that he dyd yt not or that he wolde do so no more, take all the mater for saufe / and than say that he wolde not haue that order all waye kepte, but onely in suche dayngerouse tymes as many folke wolde fall to thefte. For than were yt good to spare theim and speke them fayre, [Page xci] and suffer theym tyll they wolde waxe fewer of them selfe / and than after that, vse agaynste theym the lawis & the old order again. Wold not thys wyse waye trowe you do well in thefte? For sothe yt were awaye as farre vnwyse & as farre agaynst reason in heresy, as eyther in theft or murder or any other maner cryme.

¶And surely me semeth y where he calleth this a dayngerouse tyme: he vseth a very daungerous worde / and to fere the ordynaryes wyth all, wolde make the worlde wene, that heretyques were here so many and so stronge, that thordynaryes myght not nowe do theyre dutyes in sub­duynge heresyes, wythoute great daungeour. Wherin there is as great daungeour yet, and shall I dout not in the kynges graces days that now is, and longe mote be, as there ys in the parynge of an apple. Howe be yt I wyl not denye hym thys inded, [Page] but that yf suche daungerouse wordes of his dyuysyon, may make thordynaryes aferd of theyre owne shawdow a whyle: yt may grow to some daunger at the laste.

¶But than goeth [...]e farther with a nother remedye, that I truste in god shall neuer nede. For I truste in god there neuer shall in thys realme, any suche great personage fall into here­sye, as thordynarye dare not procede accordynge to the law agaynste hym. Howe be yt in case yt shold happen [...] than this good man prouideth for the remedy (to say the trouth) very wel, that is to wyt that thordynary sholde haue recourse vnto the kynge, that his hyghnes vppon petycyon made vnto hym, and informacyon geuyn hym, maye (as no doute were there but he wolde) wyth his royall assys­tence, prouyde a meane suffycyent, yt the course of the lawe myght ꝓcede.

¶This is wel deuised. And here in [Page xcii] he plaieth the good kow, & geueth v [...] a good galon of mylke. But thā shal you se howe he playeth the shrewde know agayne, and turneth ouer the payle euyn by and by wyth his hele. For vppon this good deuise, he forth with addeth this shrewd sayēg to yt.

But as longe as there is an opynyon amonge the peple / that the ordinaryes & theyr offycers wil geue lytght credence vppon informacyons made to theym of heresye / and that they wyll noyse theym that be complayned on a [...] heretyques / before dew examynacyon in that behalfe; so long wyll the peple grudge and peraduēture the kynge not geue hys assystence so redyly to haue them attached as he wolde do, yf he herde that the ordynaryes noysed no man to be an heretyque wythout dew examynacyon, as is before rehersed.

¶If this good man had as myche wyt as I se wel he lacketh: I wold wax euyll content with hym, that he shold ones conceyue any such opyny­on of the kinges graciouse hyghnes, as that his grace wold any thynge be the more remysse to geue royall assy­stence vnto thordinaries, about ye attachīg of such as are suspect of heresy, [Page] as longe as hys grace herde that thordynaryes noysed that any man were an heretyque wythoute suche dewe examynacyon as this man a­fore rehersed. For the kynges hygh prudence very wel perceiueth, that if he sholde forbere tyl that tyme that he sholde here no suche thynge sayde by theym: yt were almoste as myche to say, as he shold geue no asystence agaynste heretykes, tyl al heretykes were gone. For neuer shall there lacke suche a false sedycyouse fame agaynste the ordynaryes, as longe as there are heretyques here & there to sowe it, and suche sedycyouse bo­kes of dyuysyon, with such vntrew Some sayes to blowe yt farther a­brode.

The vntrouth of such false fame, hath ben before the kinges honorable counsayle of late well and playnely proued all redy, vppon sondry suche false complayntes by the kinges gracyouse [Page xciii] commaundement examyned. And all be it that this is a thynge no­toriousely knowen, and that I haue also my selfe in myne apologye spo­ken thereof, and that synnys that boke gone abrode, it hath ben in lyke wyse before the lordes well & play­nely proued in mo maters a fresshe / and all be it that this water wessheth awaye all his mater: yet goeth euer this water ouer this goosys backe / & for any thynge that any man can do, no man can make it synke vnto the skynne that she maye ones fele it / but euer she shaketh such playne proues of with her fethers of Some say and they say the contrary. Is not this a prety proper way? And therfore thus you se good reders, that this mānes deuicys in his order to be taken with suche as speke heresyes, be very vi­cyouse and haue they neuer so fayre a fleryng at the fyrste face: yet whā they be cōsydered well, they be foun­den [Page] farre worse thā nought. And yet was I not mynded as you maye se, to haue examyned them so farre, sa­uynge that euyn whyle I was in writynge of this chapyter, and about to leue of: worde was brought me that thys deuyce of his order for heresye, was with some folke whom my self haue knowen, so specyally well commended. ¶But yet wyll thys man say, & in effecte so he dothe, mayster More wyll not say for all thys that euery thynge that a man speketh whiche yf he obstynately wolde holde he w [...]re an heretyke, is inough to iudge euery such man an heretyke, as doth in any maner speke it.

¶I wyll not at thys tyme varye with this good man for that, nor dys­pute with hym vppon the trouth of ye tale, there be so many maner waies of spekynge. For a man maye speke therof in dysprayse therof. But this wyll I saye to hym. That tale and [Page xciiii] such other lyke, were they neuer so trewe, were yet as me semeth mych better out of his englysshe prented booke than in it.

¶For yf he thynke it necessary to wryte it, bycause of any folke whom he thynketh necessary to lerne it: ey­ther he meneth that they nede it, whi­che are the spyrytuall iudges, or els the comen people. Now as for the iudges, veryly I haue knowen and do knowe many of them, & yet knewe I neuer none so symple of wyt, nor so farre vnlerned, but for any wyt or lernyng that I perceyue in this man, the wurste of theym wyste a greate dele better what perteyned vn to theyr parte and theyr dutye in suche poyntes as these are, than doth thys good man here.

¶Than yf he saye he putteth it in, bycause that though they knowe it they mysse vse it, and do the contrary [Page] and so do therby misse handle the kynges people, and put theym to cruell punyshement vniustely: than I aske hym how he proueth that lye to be trew? Therto ye wote well he wyll brynge forth for the playne profe of his playn trouth in the mater his old thre wurshypfull wytnesses whiche stand yet all vnsworne that is to wyt Some saye, and They say, & Folke say. And than hath he now brought forth other two, whome he maketh as me semeth bothe as wytnesses & iudges to, that is the good sely sowle Symkyn Salem, and his ryght ho­nest neyghbour brother Byzance. Well I am content I, yt all his fyue wytnesses be sworē & wel examined, how they know the thyngꝭ that they reporte / & than those spyrytuall iud­ges of whom they shall so speke and proue, set it be layed vnto theyr char­ges. And yf you fynde of suche so many, and theyr dealynge so cruell or [Page xcv] vniuste, as this man maketh it, or any thynge well towarde it: than am I content that ye shall for them byleue all the remanaūt the wurse. And yet is yt I wysse somwhat with the most. And than am I content that you by­leue also, that this man had for that cause / a necessary occasion and a pro­fytable, to put yt tale in his bate ma­kynge boke.

¶But in the mene whyle, I laye a­gaynste hym for yt point, and agaynst all his fyue wurshypfull wytnesses to, the dede & the reporte of ye gretest and the moste honorable temporall lordes of the kynges most honorable counsayle, and other ryght wurshyp­full temporall men of the same with them, whiche by the gracyouse com­maūdement of the kinges hyghnesse, haue examyned dyuerse suche com­playntes, at the suit of ye partyes thē selfe and theyr frendes, & haue ther­uppon founden the same complayntꝭ [Page] false, & that thordynaryes haue done them but ryght, and that wyth great fauour to.

¶And therfore as for thys poynte, the treuthe beynge so substancyally proued vppon this syde, by all hys fyue forenamed wytnesses, on the to­ther syde sette I not fyue strawes. And therfore good reders as for this poynt, his puttynge of that pyece in hys boke of diuisyon, had neyther ne­cessyte nor profyte / excepte it were eyther necessary or profytable to sow a euyll sede agaynste good folke, of vntrew reprouable slaunder in hys owne wrytynge, vnder the colour of some other mēnes vnproued wordꝭ.

¶Than resteth there as farre as I can se but one cause byhynde, yt shold excuse hym. And that is that it was a thynge profytable for the people, to know that though a man of a lyght­nesse or of a passyon growynge of ignoraunce or of frayltye, speke and [Page xcvi] [...]alke heresyes at lybertye: yet but yf he defende it opinatyuely, he shold not be taken for an heretyke therby. Deryly good readers yf thys tale were trewe: yet wolde I wene as I sayde, this tale vnto the people as good vnwryten as wryten, & a great dele better to.

¶As for thys good man or any man ellys, I can not let theym to wryte what they lyste, and saye they thynke it good be it neuer so badde in dede. But I durste in my conscyence no more vse thys fashyon of wrytynge concernynge heresye, than I wolde vse it in wrytynge any boke, wherof I wolde speke of eyther treason or any other felony / excepte some other necessary occasyon sholde happely dryue me therto, as no good occasyon in hys booke of dyuysyon droue this good man therto.

¶If I were agayne to reade in Lyncolns Ine & there were in hande [Page] wyth a statute that touched treason and all other felonyes: I wolde not let to loke, seke out and reherse why­ther any heyghnouse wordes spoken agaynst the prynce, were for the one­ly spekynge to be taken for treason or not.

¶Nor I wolde not let in lyke wyse to declare, if I founde out any casy [...] in whyche a man though he toke an other mannes horse agaynst the law, sholde yet not be iudged for a felon therby. And this wolde I not onely be bolde there to tell them, but wolde also be bolde in such french as is pe­culiare to the lawys of this realme, to leue it wyth them in wrytynge to. But yet wold I reken my selfe sor [...] ouer sene, yf all suche thynges as I wolde in that scole speke in a redyng, I wolde in englysh into euery man­nys hand put out abrode in prent. For there is no such necessyte therin as is in the tother. For in ye places of court [Page xcvii] these cōpanies must nedes be taught it / oute of whyche companyes they must after be taken that shalbe made iudges to iudge it. But as for the co­mon people to be tolde that tale, shall as farre as I se do many folke lytell good, but rather very great harme. For by perceyuyng that in some thin­ges were no thynge the perell that they ferede, some may waxe therin more neglygent / and by lesse ferynge ye lesse dayngeour, may soone steppe into the more. And therfore haue I wyste ere thys, the iudges of a great wysedome in great open audyence, where they haue hadde occasyon to speke of hyghe mysseprisyon or of treason, forbere yet the sayenge of some suche thynges, as they wolde not haue letted to speke among them selfe.

¶If any man wold happely thynke that it were well done that euery mā were taught all / and wollde aledge [Page] therfore that if he know surely what thynge wolde make hys behauour hygh treason or heresye, than though he wolde aduenture all that euer were vnder that, yet wold he be per­aduenture the more ware to kepe hym selfe well from that / as many a man though he byleue that he shall abyde greate payne in purgatory for hys venyall synnes, dothe for all that no greate dylygence in forbe­rynge of them, and yet for ye feare of perpetuall payne in hell, taketh very greate hede to kepe hym selfe frome those synnes, that he surely knoweth for mortall.

¶As for suche venyall synnes as folke of fraylty so comenly do fall in, that no man is almoste any tyme wythout theym, though the profyte wolde be more yf men dyd wene they were mortall, so that the drede therof coulde make menne vtterly forbere theym: yet syth it wyll not be, that [Page xcviii] men wyll vtterly forbere them / the knowlege of the trouth is necessary for them / leste euery tyme that they do suche a veniall synne in dede, we­nyng that it were mortall, the doyng of the dede wyth the conscyence of a mortall synne, myghte make it mor­tall in dede.

¶But of any such kynde of veniall synnes as be not so mych in custume, and may be more easyly forborne: I neuer founde any wyse man to my remembraūce, that wold eyther wryte or teche the comune peple so exactly, as to say though you do thus farre, yet is it no dedely synne / but wyll in suche thynges syth the veniall synne it self is a drawyng toward ye dedely, rather leue the people in dowt and in drede of dedely synne, and thereby cause them to kepe them selfe farre of from it / than by tellynge theym it is but a venyall synne, make them the lesse aferde to do it / and so [Page] come so myche the ner [...]r to mortall synne, and assaye how nere he canne come to it, and not do it, tyll he come at laste so nere the brynke, that hys fote slyppeth and downe he falleth in to it. For as the s [...]rypture saith, Quiamat periculum, peribit in illo. He that loueth perell shall perysshe in it.

¶Nowe as for heyghnouse wor­des spekynge agaynste the prynce, or talkynge of heresye agaynste the knowen catholyque fayth: these are no thynges lyke these commen ve­niall synnes / but be thynges bothe twayne, whyche they that do theym, maye myche more easely forbere them. And therfore were it more profyte vnto the people, to thynke rather the more perell therin thanne the lesse.

¶The iudgꝭ parte is to se that the punysshement passe not the grauyte of the offence. And therfore shall the comon people take none harme, [Page xcix] though them selfe concernynge trea­son or heresye, fall not by suche bo­kes to the myncyng of suche maters, and dyspute howe farre they maye go forwarde in theym, wythout the extreme daynger and perell of them / but shall the better kepe them selfe from the greater, yf for fere of grea­ter, they kepe them selfe well from the lesse.

¶But surely suche tales tolde vn the people, and geuyn euery man and woman at auenture in prented en­glysshe bookes abrode, as may geue them suche boldenesse in talkynge, as thys man here in thys .xiiii. chapy­ter dothe, and to tell theym that there is not therin so mych perell, as many man wolde wene: maye be myche harme bothe vnto them selfe and vnto other to. To them selfe, for with a lytell lesse feare than they had be­fore, they maye soone fall ferther than they dyd before, or euer wolde [Page] haue done. And than sholde he in whome it so sholde happen, fynde that it were (as holy saynt Hierome sayth) better to leue some thynges vnknowen, than with perell to lerne theym.

¶To other men also maye a man do thereby myche harme. For some man with bolde talkynge heresyes, wherby he maketh other men fyrste to take them for lyght, and lytell and lytell after to byleue them to (whyle they here him so boldely speke them, & here hym nothynge reproue them) may do mych more harme by making many other fal from ye fayth, though he were not fallen from it hym selfe, than he shold do if he hylde his tonge, though secretely in his harte he were a starke heretyke in dede.

¶And therfore surely good reader, what so euer the man ment in hys owne secrete mynde, the fashyon of his doctrine is yet in my mynde play­nely [Page c] a thynge to the people myche more perylouse than profytable / and in his booke of dyuysyon very euyll putte in, and here euyll repeted a­gayne.

¶Now where as he referreth the remanaunt of the mater concernyng heresye, vnto theym that can better skyl / of whom he desyieth me to aske what were to be done, wyth suche as speke heresyes and are none herety­kes in theyr harte: surely yf euer any suche case sholde happen, as I shold nede to make serche for that poynte, I wolde wyth good wyll so do. But I loke for no suche necessyte. For it is inough for me, yf I sholde happe to here any talke heresyes, than to declare it vnto theyr ordynaryes, to whome the ferther charge appertey­neth, to make therupon ferther serch suche as he maye / and theruppon as he maye ferther fynde therof, so fer­ther do therin. [Page] And as for thys man hym selfe, as he canneth therin for any thynge that I se very lytell skyll, so wolde I that he hadde lesse medeled therwith, than to tell and teache the peple fyrst by hys booke of dyuysyon, and after­warde by thys booke agayne, that they maye speke and talke heresyes well inough, wythout the daynger or perell to be for suche spekynge law­fully taken for heretyques. Wyth whiche tale though it were trewe, he doth them yet lytell good. For the vsyng of such spekyng of heresyes, yf it fully proue not a man an here­tyque, yet may it make hym ye wote well of heresye in hys harte very ryghte sore suspecte. For as oure sauyour saythe hym selfe, Ex ha­bundantia cordis os loquitur. The mouth speketh suche thynges as in the harte be plentuouse and ha­boundeth. And therfore I saye, that though he neyther defende it [Page ci] obstynately, nor can be precysely proued an heretique in his secrete harte: yet maye his open wordes be suche (though they were spoken of I can not tel you what maner passyon) that for the sore suspycyon that his own wordes hath brought hym selfe into, he maye well and wyth good reason be compelled to abiure. And therin were there I wysse no great honesty nor no very great profyte neyther. And yet is it al the profyte that I se can come of thys good mannes do­ctryne.

¶And this is the thynge so that this good mā bosteth in this chapiter, the seconde syde of his .xliiii, lef, that I do not deny / as though he had goten therby a great ouer hande on me in ye mater. But yet wold I good reders saue for the length, let hym perceyue thys ouersyghte and ignoraunce, in another maner touchynge the thynge [Page] that he so bosteth that I denye hym not / and wolde make hym loke a lyt­tell better euyn vppon Summa Rosella, whom he so mych allegeth here hym selfe.

¶And where as in the same lefe and syde, he maketh a certayne certyfycate (as though I were a bysshoppe, and hadde sente hym a com­myssyon to enquyre) that he know­eth not one heretyke in all this realm in worde nor dede: mary I wolde meruayle myche yf he dyd. For yt muste nedes be very long ere he can knowe any, while the man is so lytle suspycyouse in maters of heresye, that though he sholde here theym talke heresye by hym, yet bycause though he heare what theyr mouthes speke, he can not yet perdyelo [...]oke in vnto theyre hartes there, and se what they thynke, nor knoweth not also, whyther yf they were asked [Page cii] where they were well a ferde, they wolde holde yt opynatyuely / or elle [...] (rather than be burned or beare a fagotte) say that they sayde yt al but of a passyon of ignoraunce or frayl­tye: he can not therfore lyghtely knowe any one heretyque (as he sayeth he doth not) neyther in worde nor dede in all thys whole realme.

¶And then for hearynge by report, therin goth he farther and sayeth.

For howe be yt that I haue herde somtyme repor­ted, that there be many heretykes / yet I neuer hard so farre profe therin, that I myght with conscyence [...]uge or report / that this man or that man is an heretyque. And to euery lyght worde a man maye not gyue full credēce in that behalfe / ne reporte yt lyghtly / that any man is an heretyque by suche lyght ta­les. And surely thys poynte is myche to be noted of all men / but moste spycyally of them that dayly myny [...]tre the sacramentes of the chyrche, lefte happely thorough suche reportes they mynystre theym som­tyme in dedely synne, and yet wolde not thynke so theym selfe.

¶It wolde haue done very well, that thys good man hadde geuen as lyghte a credence, to suche reportes [Page] in mysse handelynge of heretyques as some haue made hym of the spyrytualtye (yf hym selfe therin saye trewe) as he semeth to haue geuen to theym that haue reported vnto hym that there are many heretiques. For than, syth after hys owne prea­chynge here, a man oughte to be so well ware howe he lyghtely reporte agayne, any euyll lyghte reportes that he hathe herde to the slaun­der of any one man: hym selfe wold not of lykelyhed so lyghtely haue made such euyll report in that poynt, to the slaunder and obloquye of the prelates of the spyrytualtye, therby to brynge theym in grudge of the whole temporalty, vppon such lyght reportes made vnto hym, by some lyghte symple persones / where as by the kynges honorable counsayle the trouthe hathe ben so playnely proued to be contrarie.

[Page ciii]¶But yet where as he confesseth that he hathe herde yt sometyme re­ported, that there be many herety­ques: I wolde fayne wyt of hym, whether that suche reporte haue ben made vnto hym by any of the tempo­raltye. If he saye naye, but that all that so tolde hym were spyrytuall men: than may they byleue hym that thynke hys answere lykely. For I wolde wene in my mynde, that be­twene hym and spyrytnall persones, were not so myche famylyare com­panye, as to come to tell hym that tale. For he semeth not very mete­ly for spyrytuall men in that mater to make theyr mone vnto. And than yf he harde yt eyther of temporall men besyde, or of temporall men onely and no spyrytuall men at all: than dyd he not very well when he wrote in hys dyuysyon, that spyrytual men make that noyse for a polycye. [Page] And yet also wolde I farther wy [...] whether he haue herde any speke he­resyes in any place where hym selfe was present in companye. If he answere me naye: than wyll I preace no farther vppon hym, but let euery man as I saide before byleue yt that thynketh yt lykely. But on the to­ther syde, yf he answere me ye: than wolde I fayne farther wyt, why­ther euer hym selfe wente so farre wyth theym, as to proue whether he sholde by hys owne rule in thys chapyter, haue cause to shewe theyr or­dynarye of theym, that he myghte sende for theym / or ellys that he­rynge folke so speke heresyes by hym, he toke all to the beste alwaye of his owne specyall goodnesse / and leste he myghte wyth questyonynge happe to fynde yt worse, folowed euer in that mater, the good coun­sayle that saynt Poule gaue in a no­ther mater, nolite interrogare, pro­pter [Page ciiii] conscientiam, aske no questyon, leste you brynge a scruple into your conscyence. If he vsed any dyly­gence in questyonynge: than were yt well lykely that he founde in all thys longe whyle, some where at the leste wyse some one.

¶But now yf he herde them speke heresye, & founde no faute therwyth, nor no questyon asked: then ys yt as I sayde lytle meruayle, though he neuer no where in al England foūd one. And that is euen one of the ve­ry thynges, whyle many folke nowe fall to the same fashyon, to heare he­resyes talked and lette the talkers alone, whyche yet wyll (yf they be brought into the court byfore the iudge) tell than the trouth, and wyl not be so false as to be forsworen: thys is I say one of the very special thynges, for whyche in cryme of heresye the suyte ex officio (whyche in the next chapyter folowyng he laboreth [Page] [...]ore to destroye) maye what so euer thys man saye, in no wyse be for­borne, but yf we wolde haue the [...]iretes swarme full of heretyques, why the very lykely were to folowe, though he saye naye .xl. tymes.

And that haue I agaynste hys boke of dyuysyon well declared in myne Apologye. And he hath agayn here in thys boke defended, in that poynte his boke of dyuysyon, as your self shal anon se god wote wyth myche worke full febly.

The secūd part.

The .xv. chapyter.

HIs .xv. chapiter concernynge the suit ex officio, begynneth in the xlviii. lefe of his boke, & holdeth on into ye .liiii.

¶And for as mych good christē rea­ders at it may well appere, that this poynt is the specyall thynge that he fayne wolde brynge about, that is to wyt to sowe an opinyon in mennes heddes, that it were good to chaunge and put awaye that suit, toward whi­che purpose all his boke of diuysyon bendeth / laborynge fyrst with his so many some sayes, to brynge the spy­rytuall iudges in suspycyon and ob­loquy, and make the people wene yt they meruelousely dyd with mych wronge & cruelty mysse handle men [Page] for heresye: therfore I shall in thys poynt here confute hys argumentes so playne & in such wyse, that who so lyste indyfferently to rede bothe the partes, shall fynde here causes good and suffycyent why, by his vnreaso­nable reasōs neuer after to set a flye

¶And fyrst bycause ye shall well se that I wyll not wrestle in the darke, but brynge the mater into lyght open and playne at your eyen / I wyll in this mater leue you not out one word of this his .xv. chapyter, but brynge forth his wordꝭ with myne. And thā whyle you rede the tone fyrste, & the tother euyn after hande: there shall neyther he nor I / by any sly sleyght deceyue you.

¶But two thynges for thys mater wyll I requyre you fyrste / one that you reiecte one wyly sleyght of hys, with which he goth about euyn from the begynnynge to corrupte our iud­gement that are temporall men, and [Page ii] in ye redyng to blynd vs with affecciō

¶For in all this mater he maketh as there were two partes. The tone he maketh the spyrytualtye. And thys cause he so maketh theyrs, as though the cōmodyte of that suit to be kepte, were a thynge that perteyned onely vnto thē. The tother partye he ma­keth vs of the temporalty, whom he wold haue put ye same suit away. For though that in the perleament be spyrytuall men also: yet all were they al vpon one syde sure, he seeth wel they were to fewe

¶But it is necessary that we consy­der in this poynt, that though the iud­ges be spyrytuall, yet yf that suit be necessary for preseruacyon of the ca­tholyke fayth, than is the profyte not the spirytuall mennes onely, but that profyte and aduauntage is our owne to. And yf by the chaunge of that suit ex officio, the decay of the catholyke fayth shall folow in this realme: than [Page] is not the losse and damage vnto the spyrytualtye alone, but the harme is importable vnto the whole realme.

¶Therfore haue this poynt in this mater euer before your eyen, that ye chaunge of that law yf that lawe be good, but yf he chaunge it in to a bet­ter, or at the leste as good, is a comen harme to the whole realme. And that harme happeneth in ye gretest thyng that we coulde possyble take harme in, yf we be (as I wote well we be & euer entende to be) faythfull trew chrysten people.

¶Loke therfore good readers both to his reasons and myne, and yf you fynde by his reasōs that the puttyng awaye of that law, be better for the kepyng of the catholyke fayth in this land, ye or better other wyse for this land without the minisshement of the fayth in the same, than am I well cō tent that ye compte thys good man bothe for very wyse and for very [Page iii] faithfull to.

But now yf you fynde by myne an­swere on ye tother side, yt al his reasōs in this poynt are not worth one rysshe towarde the profe of any necessary cause of chaunge / but hys reason and his argumentꝭ alway such therin, yt eyther they be byelded vppon a fa [...]se ground / or ellys yf he make any that happen to be true, yf ye fynde it yet but such as by the selfe same reason yf men wolde vnwysely folowe it, there myghte no lawe neyther longe laste, nor yet no law be made: yf you fynd I say his reasons agaynst this law but suche, ye wyll than I dowt not thynke it but good reason, for all his riall reasonyng to let ye law stand.

¶But than yf ye fynde [...]erther yet, as I wote well ye shall, that the chaūge that he wolde make, vnder a nedeles pretence of preseruyng innocentes out of dayngeour and parell, and can not proue that thys hundred [Page] yere any one was wronged with it, sholde cause heretykes to be bolde, take corage, & encreace, and for lacke of this law the catholyke fayth to de­kaye: than wyll you not I wote wel let to tell thys man, that he lacketh in this mater, how gay so euer he make it, either wyt, or (which wurse were) loue to the chrysten fayth.

¶The tother thynge yt I requyre, you shall your selfe se reasonable. For it serueth to the clere perceiuyng of vs bothe, how both he and I bere our selfe in this mater. And I shall not requyre therin parcyally for my parte, but a requeste indyfferent and egall for vs bothe, syth ye shall the clerer therby perceyue where about we bothe goo, and where any of vs bothe swarue a syde fro the mater, and to hyde the trouth out of syghte, slynke into lurkys lane.

¶My request is no more, but that it maye lyke you to take the laboure [Page iiii] and payne for perceyuynge of the trowth, from the begynnynge to per­use the whole mater, as farre as perteyneth to the chaunge of this lawe.

¶Reade fyrste hys owne wordes in his owne boke of dyuysyon. And after reade myne answere in myne apologye, whyche you shall fynde in the fourtyth chapyter, the .218. lefe, and his wordꝭ to therwyth. And whanne those two thynges be bothe fresshe in your mynde, reade thanne this his fyftenthe chapyter of thys booke, wyth myne answeres euery where added therunto / and than haue I whan this is done lytell dowte of your iudgement, ye shall se the ma­ter proue agaynste thys good man playne.

¶In hys .xv. chapyter good rea­ders he wolde make men wene, that he suffycyentely proueth thre thyn­ges. The tone is that it were none hurte to chaunge now this olde lawe. [Page] The secunde thynge is that it were great hurte to kepe it. The thyrde, that suche samples of the lawes of thys realme as I resembled vnto the suit ex officio, I resemble against reason, they be so farre vnlyke.

¶Into these thre poyntes therfore wyll I deuyde thys chapyter that the reader may the better se in what parte he is.

¶I shall reherse you fyrst here his whole wordes togyther, that he bryngeth for the fyrste poynte. Lo good readers these they be.

THen to the conuentynge of men before spyrytuall iudges ex officio, and wherupon may­ster More sayth in his apology, fo, 219. that yf it were lefte, the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretikes: Heryly I m [...]ruayle right moche at his sayeng therin: and that for this cause: It is certayne, that no man maye after the lawe be detected of heresye, but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before why he oughte so to be. For yf it be secrete in hys owne breste, none can be hys iudge but god onely, that is the sercher of man [...] herte. And yf any wyl [...]d [...]owe, that he know­eth the ca [...]se, and wyl denounce hym as an heretyke therfore: thā it is reasō, yt he be taken as his accuser. [Page v] And yf he wyll not aduow to be his accuser, yf y [...] to thynke that he doth yt of some malyce or crafte rather then for the trouth of the mater. And yf he saye he da [...]e not for fere of hi [...] lyfe auow yt, I haue shewed a meane in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse how the wytnesse maye be saued from daunger, as by shewynge the mater to the kynge and hys coun­sayle, and that then yt is not to suppose nor so to thynke, but that they wyll pronyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe. And this remedye mayster More denyeth not to be conuenyent for this realme. And yet he wyll not assent, that a lawe be made that yt shall be so. And then yf the wytnesse wil not auow it, but an other wyl geue credence to hym and auow yt: then yt semeth reasonable, that they yt wyll gyue credence therto, a wyl reporte yt / be taken as accusers: takynge those wytnesse for theyr warraunte, yf yt be denyed.

¶In these wordes lo good readers you se, howe he proueth hys fyrste poynt, that of the chaūge of this law by puttynge awaye this suyt ex offi­cio, wherin wythoute any specyall accuser, offerynge hym selfe as party, the suspecte may be called in before the iudge ex officio, that is to wyt by reason of his office: there could none harme growe at all.

¶And howe dothe he nowe proue vs this poynt? He proueth yt [Page] as you se fyrst by certain reason put & presupposed for a grounde / & then after that by a certayne order that hym [...]elfe shortly diuyseth and setted vp vppon the same.

Hy [...] ground and his foundacion is this, yt is certayn he sayth that no man may after the law be detected of heresye / but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before / why he ought so to be.

¶Very trouth yt is that no man can be detected, except a man detect hym self, but yf some other se some thyng in hym wherfore he sholde seme nought, some one thinge or other that they whych perceyue it suspect hym therfore them selfe. And therfore as for this ground this good man and I wyll not greatly stryue ¶Then foloweth his order that he dyuyseth & byesdeth vp theruppon thus.

And yf any wyll aduow that he knoweth the cause, and wyll denounce hym an heretyke therfore: then is yt reason that he be taken as his accuser.

¶This is a ryght good reason / and the spirituall lawe wyll not refuse so to take hym & accept hym for an accuser [Page vi] yf he will / and then wyll they not in that case vse the suit ex officio. For in that case it nedeth not. But nowe what yf he that knoweth it, & secretly detecteth it, peraduēture four or fyue and sometyme mo to, & yet not one of them al, wil openly be called an accuser, but wilbe content to be taken and knowē for a wytnesse, called in by the court & sworen, and to tell the trouth as of an necessyte, & not as accusers of theyr neyghbour of theyr own of­fre wyllyngly: what shall the ordy­nary do then? ¶Agaynst this parel this good mā geueth vs this remedy.

If they wyll not be hys accusers, yt is to thynke that they do yt of some malyce or crafte, rather then for the trouth of the mater.

¶I wene good readers that there is no man but when he hereth this answere, he wold wene there were yet for the farther remedye some other more mater behynd. For what madde man wolde thynke that this were a suffycient remedy, so fully prouyded [Page] For thys mater, that yf there were any heretyques they could not fayle so fully to be detected by thys waye of accusacyon, that there sholde nede no suyte ex officio, bycause they that knowe yt maye eyther holde theyr peace yf they lyste, or ellys yf they wyll algates detecte any man, maye be taken and accepted for accusers / and yf they wyll not openly be taken so, then be taken for malycyouse and craftye, and therfore byleue theym not, but bydde theym lyke false harlottes hense and go gete theym home.

¶ But howe shall we do yet for one thynge? For thoughe that theyre refusynge to bycome open accusers, were a coniecture to lede vs some­what to byleue them false or malycyouse: yet were yt not so great a coniecture on that syde, nor so sure, but that we might be therin decey [...]ed and they bothe charytable and trew, [Page vii] and the man yt they detected a very perylouse heretyque in ve [...]y dede. And then for oughte that this man deuyseth yet, we sholde nede the suyte ex officio to buste oute this ma­ter better / or ellys that man that they detected shall (yf he be suche as they sayde he was) teache here­syes styll, and do myche harme a great whyle.

¶ Also good readers thys good man hathe no suche cause so sore to mysse truste suche a denouncer, onely bycause that he refuseth to be taken of his owne offre for a partye and an open accuser, consyderynge that he refuseth not to be broughte in by processe, and depose in ye parties owne presence as a wytnesse, and wyll be content that his deposycyons hym selfe standyng by be publyshed, & redde openly byfore ye world. And therfore any wyse man wold wene, yt this good man to proue that we shold [...] [Page] [...] [Page vii] [Page] not nede the suyte ex officio, yf he wolde make hys suyte by waye of accusacyon, suffycyent to serue in the stede, he had nede to haue diuised some [...]arther thing thē this. But this good hoste of ours, prayeth you for this feste to be m [...]ry with such as you haue, for here is al your fare / sauyng that to make vs lyke this meate the better, & fyl our belyes somwhat the better ther wyth, he geueth vs therto one lytle messe of sauce to it, in shew­ynge vs a cause, wherfore it is good reason, that we shold geue theym no credēce that detecte a man of heresy, and yet wil refuse to become his opē accusers. And ye cause that he geueth vs is this.

F [...]r vf he say (sayth this good man) that he dare not for [...]ere of his lyfe auow yt, I haue shewed a meane in the seuēth chapyter of the sayd treatyse / how the wytnesse may be saued from daūger, as by shewyng the mater to the kynge and his counsayle / and that the [...] it is not to suppose nor to thynke, but that they wyll prouyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesses in that behalfe.

[Page viii]¶ Nowe good readers herde any man euer any reason made for suffy­cyent, by any man that any reason had in his hedde / and handeled so in­suffycyently. Be this wyse reason he maketh as though no man detec­tynge any man of heresye, excepte he surmysed the mater of falshed & ma­lyce, wolde refuse to be hys open accuser for any thynge saue for one­ly fere / nor for no lesse fere neyther then onely the fere of deth. And then for that fere, he hath as he sayth diuysed suffycyent remedye.

¶Now that none other thynge can set a man to make hym selfe a partye and an open ac [...]user, but onely fere [...] I wene there wyll no man graunte hym / and that no lesse fere then onely fere of deth, and adde fere of all bodyly harme thereto, that wyll I wene euery wyse man lesse graunt [...] hym.

[Page]¶But nowe let vs consyder whe­ther the fere that hym selfe graun­teth to be suffycyent, to let a detectour from takynge vppon hym to be an accuser, be so suffycyently prouy­ded for by thys good man, that yt muste nedes be, that by hys prouysyon that fere shall be quyte gone. For yf that yt maye be, that all hys prouysyon not wythstandynge, the mannys fere maye styll remayne in his harte / then may yt also be perdy, that be hys deteccyon neuer so trew, yet he maye for that fere, refuse to make hym selfe a partye and become an open accuser.

¶Consyder nowe therfore what is the remedye that he hath dyuysed in his seuenth chapyter. He reherseth yt here agayne, that vppon cōplaynt made to the kynge and his coūsayle it is not to suppose nor thīke, but yt they wold prouyde sufficiētly for thindemnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe.

[Page ix]¶I am content to graunte hym for the whyle, that they wyll suffycyent­ly prouyde for thindempnyte of the wytnessys. But fyrst all this prouy­syon is in our case here very nedeles. And his prouysyon in the seuynth chapyter of his dyuysyon, is brought in for another maner of mater / that ys to witte agaynst a prouisyon made in the spyrytull lawe, by whyche yt is there deuysed, that in some case for drede of perell that may fall to the wytnesses, the ordynary shall not suffre the ꝑtie that is detected, to knowe who hath wytnessed agaynste hym. And nowe wolde this good man by­gyle his readers in this chapyter, & make theym wene that that specyall prouysyon in that one specyall case, whych prouysyon I wene was yet in Englande neuer put in vre, were a comen order in euery mannys case. But consyder good reader that our case is now, that the mā refuseth not [Page] to be a wytnesse / but is contente both to be sworen when he is as a witnesse called in, and to auowe then hys de­posycyon trewe, byfore the iudge in the partyes awne presence / and if he maye so be vsed as a wytnesse, wyll neyther be afrayed nor a shamed, nor desyre to putte the kynges counsayle to any busynesse aboute the prouysy­on of his indempnyte at all. And therfore in our case thys good man­nys prouysyon deuysed for wytnes­ses, shall not nede for our wytnesses, yf he lette the suyt ex officio procede, and receyue them as onely witnesses.

¶But on the tother syde, yf this good man putte a way that suyt, and wyll receyue no man fyrste for a de­nouncer secretely, and after that for a wytnesse to, that wyl refuse at the begynnynge to make hym selfe a partye and bycome an open accuser / but though they were suche twenty wyll take theym al for false shrewes and [Page x] putte theym to sylence, excepte some one of theym wyll take vppon hym the name and persone of an accuser: I saye that his prouysyon dothe not suffyse, not euyn in hys owne case of fere, to make euery trew man cōtent to accuse an heretyque / but that we muste eyther lette that heretyque a­lone and lette hym go make mo, or ellys muste we vse the suyte ex offi­cio styll.

¶That is not so sayeth this good man. For yf he bycome an accuser I haue diuysed a remedye for hys in­dempnyte. That is well & properly sayde. But we speke not of hys losse but of hys fere. Why what shold he nede to fere whan he can take no losse? hath this good man neuer herd in his lyfe that some man hathe ben wurse aferde than hurt? a man may fere perdy though he fere causelesse. And yf he so do styl thē wil he not by­come [Page] thaccuser, & angre hym whome he fereth, though the man be boūden, and ryghte good suertyes with hym, that he shall do his accuser no bodyly harme at all.

¶His fere is also for all the prouysyon that can be made by suffycyent suertye, not all causelesse yet. For he may well and with good reason fere, that he that is bounden may by some secrete shrewes of hys acquayntaūs murdre hym / and that in such wise as when he doth it, he may wene & haue hope that it shal neuer be knowen for his dede, nor he therby lese forfaiture of his bounde.

¶There can no man (ye wote wel) also kyll a nother, but with the parel of his owne lyfe. And yet is there dayly many a man, that standeth for al that in drede, that a nother man wil for euyll will and malyce des [...]roye hym. And the comen lawes of thys realme so farre forth alowe and ap­proue [Page xi] his drede, for al that his enimy is vpon losse of his own lyfe boundē to the contrarye, that vpon his owne othe, they cōpell the party to be bounden with other suertyes for hym in certayne sommes of money, that he shal not. And yet the man yt fered by­fore, may peraduenture be fullferd styll, that his enymye wyll as well aduenture the forfayture of his frendes money, as he before fered that he wolde aduēture his owne lyfe. But yet bycause yt maye be that his res­specte vnto frēdshyppe, wyl temper his respecte of malyce, and make him loth, for hurtynge of one whome he hateth, to hurte twayne whome he loueth: the man is content syth he can go no farther, to take that maye be goten, and so to sew for such suertye, to lyue therby, though not in ful suerty, nor clene oute of fere, yet in suerty somwhat the more, and in fere some­what the lesse.

[Page]¶But now this man y doth detecte this heretyke, agaynst whō he fereth to make hym self an opē aduersary & accuser, is not in the case byfore he become his accuser, but maye sytte styll you se well and hold his peace, and nedeth not to make that heretyque his aduersarye by his wylfull accusacy­on / whyche yf he sholde ones do, he wyll neuer after happely whyle he lyueth, reken hym selfe so sure from bodyly harme that he may after hap to haue by him and by his meanes, as he wyl reken to be in yf he accuse him not / nor by such opē accusacyon geue hym an open occasion of displeasure / no not for all the prouysyon that all the world can imagine for his suertie / except onely suche suertye as a pore man deuysed ones for him self, when he came to a kyng & cōplayned howesore he fered that suche a seruaunt of his wold kyll hym. And the king bode hym fere not felow, for I promyse ye if he kyllthe he shalbe hanged within [Page xii] a lytle whyle after. Naye my lyege lord ꝙ the pore soule I beseche your grace let hym be hanged for it a great whyle afore. For I shall neuer lyue in the lesse fere tyll I se hym hanged fyrste. ¶Now will this good man happely say, that this maner of reasonynge shold proue not onely yt a man for fere wold refuse to be an accuser, but also to be a witnesse / & then were it agaynst my selfe to.

¶That is not so in euery case. For comēly no man is in such wise angry with them that are in a mater wytnesses agaynst hym, & may seme to wit­nesse agaynst theyr willys, for the necessyte of theyre othes wherto they may be or may seme to be compelled, as with hym whō he seeth willyng­ly no man calling him, come forth of his own offre to accuse him. And therfore ye cases be very far vnlyke. But yet in some cases when the par­tye yt is detected is knowen for myghtye, [Page] and for so maliciouse therwith, that he wyll of lykelyhed hate & myschyefe any man by whome he taketh any harme, though the tother man do yt neuer so myche agaynst his wyll: in suche cases the fere maye be such in dede, that it maye peraduenture cause some that ellys wolde tell the trewth yf he sholde neuer knowe them, for drede of his dyspleasure to be forsworen, rather then abyde thaduenture, what so euer prouysyon any man sholde deuyse for theyr suertye.

¶And for suche case yf it happened was ye law made, which in his seuēth chapyter this man so sore complay­neth of, that the party detected shold in suche case be kepte fro the knowe­ledge of ye wytnesses / & as (with the prouisyons that are in that law made farther) very good reason is that he sholde / and therfore is euen here that poynt of his seuenth chapyter of hys deuisyon, and all that euer he can farther [Page xiii] deuyse for the farther defence therof, full answered here by ye way.

¶But nowe sayeth this good man therto, that I denye not in myne apologye, that remedye of his dyuyse to be conuenyent for this realme / & yet I wyl not he sayth assent that a law be made that yt shalbe so.

¶In this tale this good honest man sayth vntrew. The wordes in myne apologye wheruppon he taketh hold to say, yt I denye not his deuyse to be conuenyent for thys realme be these.

¶His deuyse though peraduēture yt wolde serue in some one lande, wolde yet not serue in some other. And they that made that lawe of the chyrche, made yt as it myght serue most generally thorow chrystendome / where as this deuyse though it myght serue in Englande, myght not haue serued in many places of Almayne that are peruerted synnys / not euen whyle that mater was in a mamerynge byfore the chaunge was made. But surely [Page] that same law and other of old made agaynste heresyes, yf they had ben in Almayne dewely folowed in the be­gynnynge, the mater had not there gone oute at length to suche an vn­gracyouse endynge.

¶These be lo the wordes of myne apology the .xlii. chapyter folio. 232, wherof this man taketh holde to say, that I denye not in myne apology, yt his deuice is cōueniēt for this realme. For in these wordes in dede I do not denye it / but than you se well I do not graunte it neyther.

¶But afterwarde in the self same chapyter, the very nexte lefe after agaynste the sufficiency of his deuice write I these wordꝭ folowing.

¶And on the tother syde, the remedy that he deuyseth for the suertye of the wytnesses, sholde not peraduenture make the men so bolde, as in a cause of heresie to medle in y mater against some maner of man [...]but that they ra­ther wold for theyr owne surety, kepe theyr own tongys styll, than with all [Page] the suretie that could be foūden them bysyde, haue theyr persons dysclosed vnto the partye.

¶Lo good reders the thynge that he sayth I deny not, bycause that in the fyrst wordes I neyther sayed ye nor nay (for I sayd not yt it myght serue in england / but that though it myghte serue in Englande, yet myght it not serue in Almayne / which wordes I myght haue sayd, though I had in ye nexte lyne before, expressely sayd yt it myght not serue in Englād) y thyng do I (as you se) forthwith in ye nexte lefe well & playnely denye. And yet you se yt he sayth here agayne in thys boke, that I denye it not. This good man semeth not very shame fast lo, but yf his logyke lede hym to thynke that this were a good argument. In these wordꝭ he denyeth it not: ergo he denyeth it not. which argumēt is euen as good as this. He denyeth it not in one place, ergo he denyeth it not in no place.

[Page]¶Now where he sayth that though I denye not his deuyce to be conue­nyent, yet I wyll not assent that a law be made that it shall be so: sure­ly as mych of his deuice as I thynke conuenyent for the realme, so myche therof wyll I not be agaynste that a lawe be made that it shalbe so. For where this good man thynketh it conuenyēt for this realme, that he which is detected or accused of heresye, sholde be bounden & fynde suretyes, that he shall not hurt neyther accuser nor wytnesse: I wyll not be agaynst it that a law be made that it shalbe so But yet though that law were made (syth for all that lawe there wold remayne a feare behynde in ye mennes hartes, for whose sa [...]fe garde suche surtyes sholde be foūden, and perell and dayngeour to, suffycyēt to make them drawe backe from makynge them self in heresye open accusours, and in some case from berynge wyt­nesse [Page xv] also, but yf they thought theyr names sholde frō the person agaynst whom they shold wytnesse, be surely kepte close and vnknowen) I wolde not assent for my parte to put awaye the sayd law that he speketh of in his seuenth chapyter of his deuisyon, for chaūces that myght herafter happē. And mych lesse wolde I graunte to putte awaye the suyte agaynst heretikes ex officio, into his deuice of onely open accusers, for the harme yt wold vndowtedly dayely growe, by the encreace of heretykes & hynderaūce of the catholyke fayth / no more than though I blame not the law, by whi­che he that is aferde of kyllyng shall haue his aduersary boūdē to ye peace, I wolde yet when the tother is so bounden by recognisaunce, haue that lawe stande in stede of the tother, by whyche he shall yf he kyll that man, fall therby ferther into the daynger of hangynge.


[Page]¶And yet this his gaye gloryouse deuice, that he deuysed in his formar boke, and here now repeteth agayne: no man nedeth to geue him any great thank for. For who knew not that all way, that who so euer be aferde, may desyre & haue surety for the peace, yf he fere him self of his lyfe or bodyly harme, & may aske it of course vpon his othe as soone as he is aferd (and soner perdye this mā deuiseth it not) of ye kyngꝭ ordinary iustices, without any other ferther suit, to trouble the kyngꝭ grace or his coūsayle withall.

¶But yet wyll all this surety f [...]n­dyng as you se, neuer so take away ye feare of harme from mēnes hartes, but yt they wyll rather forbere to be accusours, thā by the becoming of an open accusour runne in ye dedely ma­lyce of that man, by whom for all his bond & all his suretyes founden, they fere still alway yt they shal take hurt.

¶But here wyll happely this good [Page xvi] man tell me nowe, that I am a man importune, & one whom no reasō can satisfye / & byd me therfore go deuyse some ferther thyng myne owne selfe [...]or [...]e [...]pe of the mater, and assay also what ferther thynge any other folke can f [...]nd therin. And if neyther myne own wyt nor no mānes els can fynd no ferther remedy, wherfore shold I than blame hym whan he deuiseth as full [...] r [...]medy as any mannes reason can find. Forsoth I can with any wyt that I haue, nor I wene no more can no man els / fynd no ferther remedy than he fyndeth here hym selfe. But yet syth the ferthest that he can fynd is very far vnsufficiēt, with chaūge of the suit ex officio to kepe heresyes from great encreace, and preserue ye catholyke fayth: I can therfore fynd at hand a mych nerer remedy than this that he fetcheth so farre that is to wyt to let his new deuicꝭ passe and let the old law stand styll [...]


[Page]¶And thus you se good readers y this pyece wherein he so bosteth the prouisyon that he hath deuysed so suffycyent to delyuer the accusers frofere, leueth theym so in drede & fere styll, that though there were no lette but the fere of bodely harme: yet of many trew men that wyl detecte and bere wytnesse, ye shold fynde but very few that wolde bycome accusers.

¶But now though there were foū den prouysyon good and sure, to dry­ue out of thaccusers harte all fere of bodyly hurt: yet are there many that dare secrely detecte, and by whome ye ordynarye shall knowe who can tell more, and wyll also yf they be called and sworen, and wyll not vncalled and vnsworen, tell no tale at all / and they them selfe also wyl neyther ac­cuse nor yet bere wytnesse neyther, nor so myche as haue it knowen that euer thei spake word therin. And that not for any fere of theyre lyfe, for [Page xvii] whiche this good man fy [...]deth as he sayth a remedy / but for losse of theyr lyuynge, for whiche he fyndeth none, nor neuer ones thought theron. And yet is the lyuynge to some folke, as lyefe almost as the lyfe. And theyr lyuynge they feare vtterly to lose (yt they gete peraduenture by them whō yet of cheryte for theyr amendement they detecte) yf they were ones per­ceyued any thing to medle in ye mater.

¶And yet as I sayde before euery wyse man well woteth there are ma­ny other affeccyons bysyde all suche feare, that lette men to become accu­sers in heresye, and yet letteth them not to do otherwyse truely and charytably theyr dewtye, both in secrete detectyng of them, and also in open be­rynge wytnesse agaynst them, whan they be called forth and cōmaunded by ye court to depose, that wyll neuer as I sayed of theyr owne offre make theym selfe a party, and openly be­come [Page] theyr accuser.

¶Now what if there were but two wy [...]nesse of the mater, suche as were well able playnely to proue ye thyng, yf neyther of both maye be herd but yf the tone shold become thaccusour: whan the tone were made party, thā were the profe lost. But we shal not nede myche I warraunt you to care for this case. For of thē both, you shal haue neyther nother that wyll.

¶ How be it yet hath this good mā at last founden a good way for that. For lo syr thus he sayth.

And than yf the wytnesse wyll not auow it, but an other wyll geue credence to hym and auo [...] it: than it semeth reasonable that they that wyll geue cre­dence therto and wyll reporte it, be taken a [...] accu­sers / takynge those wytnesses for theyr warraunt yf they be denyed.

¶If he thynke it lykely that none of them wyll become accusours that were present and herde it them selfe: than is it yet lesse lykely that he wyll become the accusour, that hereth it but at a seconde hand.

[Page xviii]And therfore me thynketh that this deuice is not mych wyser, than the deuice that a good felow deuised ones for his neyghbour, that had a greate hylloke in his close / whiche for pla­nynge of y ground he coūsayled hym to haue it away. Mary ꝙ his neygh­bour I muste carye it than so farre, that it were lesse losse to me to geue away ye close & all. Mary neyghbour ꝙ the tother, I shall soone fynde a way for that. For I shal deuise a pronisiō yt it shalbe had away & yet neuer caryed hense. For euen there as it ly­eth lo, dygge me a great pytte, & cary it neuer ferther, but berye it euen in that. Where shall I thā lay that hepe ꝙ his neyghbour that cometh out of the pytte? At that the tother st [...]dyed a lytle. But whan he hadde well by­thought hym: mary ꝙ he euen digge another greate pytte vnder that, and bery me that hepe there.

[Page]¶So this man wyll in any wyse lo, haue awaye this hyllocke, this suyte ex officio, that he sayeth dothe here myche hurte. howe shall we haue yt away say we without yet mych more hurte? Good remedy sayth this good man shortely shall I deuyse. Putte accusers in the stede of that suyt, and they shall do myche better. who shall be thaccusers say we? Mary sayth he they that here them. They wyll not say we bycome accusers in no maner case. No wyl they sayeth he, then be they but false shrewes. what remedy then say we to supply the sayde suyt. A redy waye sayeth he, take some other that heareth the tother that herd the heretike speke.

He will myche lesse bycome accuser saye we, then they that herd yt theym selfe. what hath this good man far­ther to saye then, bydde vs take then a nother that wyll. And euer we fo­lowe styll & say we shall neuer fynde hym / and that word he denyeth not, [Page xix] but alwaye byddeth vs go gete one. And now yf the second man were cō ­tent, or the fyftenth after: yet hath this man marred all thys mater with one thynge. For you wote well that yf ye wytnesse that sayth he was pre­sent and herd it his owne eares wyll refuse to bycome thaccusar hym self: this good man wyll that ye ordynary shall take hym for malycyouse or false. Now than yf we gete with longe labour some other man to ac­cuse: yet hym that herde it and wold not be thaccuser hym selfe, syth the bysshoppe must take hym alwaye for malycyouse or false in the mater, he maye neuer accept hym therin for a wytnesse. For yf we take hym for fraudulēt & maliciouse to the partye / this mannes credence is tenne tymes lesse in all reason, than his is that af­terwarde deposeth to his harme, where he was fyrst forsworē, whyle he wold fayne haue done hym good / [Page] and that man wolde not this good man byleue after in no wyse.

¶And thus bothe for the tone cause and the tother, for lacke of an accu­sour and credence of the wytnes, you se playnely good readers that by this mannes deuice, yf we dygge vp and bery this hylloke ex officio, we shall whan we haue all done say he what he lyste, make & leue that neuer wyll than be voyded, as great an hyllok [...] of heretykes in the stede.

¶And this you se good readers that this good man sheweth vs yet no le [...] but that for any thynge that he sayth here, yf the suit ef officio were chaū ­ged as he wolde haue it, and in stede therof truste all vnto accusours, of whyche for any thynge that he deui­seth we were lykely to fynde few, & as I feare me veryly rather none at all: it were well lykely to come to passe as I sayd, that y stretes sholde swarme full of heretykes, ere euer [Page xx] they were conuēted and repressed by his way. Of which sayenge of myne as mych meruaile as he saith he hath: yet sheweth he nothynge (as you se) wherfore he shold meruaile of it / nor to the thynges that I preue it wyth / he no more answereth, than though he neuer herd them.

¶Whyche dealynge of his you may clerely perceyue, euyn by the very same lefe, wherin I wrote those wordes of which he meruayleth so mych and hath so lytell cause. For there lo my wordes be these.

For surely yf the conuentynge of he­retykes ex officio were lefte & chaun­ged into another order, by whyche no man sholde be called, be he neuer so sore suspected, nor by neuer so ma­ny men detected, but yf some man make hym selfe party agaynste hym as hys accusour: the stretes were ly­kely to swarme full of heretykes, by­fore that ryght few were accused, or peraduenture any one eyther.

[Page]These were lo my wordes in myne apology against which you haue herd what he sayth. Than bycause he shold not nede to meruayle at the ma­ter, I shew by & by what maketh me so to say. For there it foloweth thus.

¶For what so euer the cause be, it is not vnknowen I am sure, that many wyll gyue to a iudge secrete informacyon, of such thinges as though they be trew, yet gladly he wyll not or per [...]uenture dare not, be opēly knowē that the mater came out by hym.

¶Consyder here good readers that as to bycome open accusars, I speke here of two lettes. One y men wyll not, another that some men dare not. And yet that they dare not / I put as the more rare & more seldome. Now cometh thys good answerer, and for the more seldome, yt is to wyt where they dare not, he deuiseth a remedy, whych seldome yet or neuer, suffycyentely shall serue the mater. And the tother cause that I call moost [Page xxi] commune as in very dede it is: that cause he neyther denyeth nor any one word speketh of it, but softely slyn­keth besyde it, as though he hadde neuer redde yt. what maner of answe­rynge good readers call you this?

¶More ouer lest he myght deny me that I sayde trewe therin: I layed there for the profe the playne comen experyence, whiche this good man hym selfe I am very sure (but yf he be a recluse and haue ben all his lyfe) knoweth well to be true / and in dede he sayth not nay.

¶Then go I there farther yet, and I declare what profyte there cometh to the commen weale, to geue suche folke herynge / such folke I saye as this good man wolde haue reiected backe, and taken for false or malycy­ouse, bycause they come secretly and wyll not theym selfe openly bycome accusers. Therin lo these are my wordes.

[Page] [...]And yet shal he sometyme geue the namys of dyuerse other / whyche be­ynge called by the iudge, and examy­ned as wytnesses agaynst theyr wyl­lys, both knowe and wyll also depose the trouthe, and he that fyrste gaue enformacyon also / and yet wil neuer one of theym wyllyngly make hym selfe an open accuser of the party, nor dare peraduenture for his earys.

¶This thynge good readers eue­ry man euery where fyndeth trewe that any order of iustyce in his hande. And in these wordes you se well I tolde hym there ones agayn, not one­ly that some dare not, but that though men dare they wyll not (excepte the thynge do pryuately touche theym selfe) for the causes of the commen weale become open accusers. And as I agayne there tolde yt hym: so he here agayne forgeth yt.

¶Then go I yet forthe a lytle farther, and these are there my wordes.

And this fynde we not onely in he­resye, but in many temporall maters [Page xxii] amonge our selfe / wherof I haue had experyence many a tyme and oft, both in the dysclosynge of felonyes, and somtyme of myche other oppres­syon vsed by some one man or twayn in a shyre, wherby all theyr neygh­bours sore smarted / and yet not one durste openly complayne.

¶Lo thus I there declared good reders by cōmen eyperyence, that if mē shold do as this man here deuyseth, reiecte euery man for malycyouse & crafty yt wil geue secrete informaciō, but yf he be cōtent to bycome an accuser opēly: there sholde myche harme growe therof / not in heresyes onely, but besyde yt in myche other myschief to. To al this gere you se good rea­ders that this good man playeth as though he cāe in in a mūmery, for any one word he sayth / whyche shold not so haue scaped hym ye may be very sure, but that he sawe full surely that he coulde neuer answere them. For though he wold haue denyed all [Page] that I speke of myne owne expery­ence, yet in the lyke thynges so many men of worshyp dayly do proue the thynge trew that I tell yt for, that he could nothyng wynne in his cause by al that denyenge. And yet dyd I not myne own selfe my besynesse in such wyse, but that I can yf nede requyre proue it playne inough. But of thys gere as I sayd he denyeth nothynge, nor answereth nothyng neyther ther­vnto. And sure maye you be yt if he had coulde, he wold not haue fayled to haue done the tone.

¶And therfore good readers my wordes stand styll so sure, that thys good man hath not yet nor neuer shal whyle he lyueth, be able to voyde them with all the crafte he can, but that yf men wolde be so farre ouer­sene as in thys mater to folow hys deuice, to put awaye thys olde lawe the suit ex officio, and truste that all wolde be well holpen by meane of [Page xxiii] open accusers: it wolde at lengthe come to passe the thyng that I haue sayd, that ye stretes were well lykely to swarm full of heretikes, ere euer that ryght few shold be therof accu­sed, or peraduenture any one here­tyke eyther.

¶And now good chrysten readers syth you se so clerely, that by suche chaungynge of that law, ye catholyke fayth shold decaye: I care not now greately what he saye for his second parte, syth he hath so fowle an ouer throwe in the fyrste, vppon whiche fyrste parte all the mater hangeth. For though he coulde in his seconde parte make you now good profe, not onely that there myght, but also that there dyd & hath done, greate harme grow by that suyte, whiche he shall neuer proue you whyle he liueth / but at sundry tymes & that of late where it hath ben so surmysed, it hath alway be proued the contrary; yet syth you [Page] se well that by this chaunge that he deuyseth, while we wold helpe these harmes that he speketh of, that is to wytte that no man sholde be conuen­ted of heresye causelesse. we shold by the prouydyng for that harme, be the cause of farre more hurt and harme in the stede / that is to wyt, that when that suyte were so chaunged, the ca­tholyque fayth sholde dekaye, and heretyques so sholde encrease, that by such insurreccions as they haue here byfore made, not in other countreys onely, but in this realme of Englād haue also attēpted y same, put yt vppon the parell & assey to robbe spoyle and kyll also myche innocent people openly, and tourne folke from the fayth by force, and worke other maner of maystryes many mo, suche a [...] myne harte abhorret so myche as to reherse or name. Syth euery man may se I say, that suche harme were in parel to fal by this chaunge of his [...] [Page xxiiii] there wyll I wene no wyse man folow his fonde deuyse in puttyng this law away, all though he proued wel in his seconde parte, that there were harme in the kepynge / whyle he can not defende the cō [...]rorye, but yt there were incōparably mych more harme in the leuyn [...]e.

¶But by what waye he proueth y there is great hurt in the kepyng, that shall we now cōsyder. After whyche well examyned / I shall agayne re­tourne good readers efte soon vnto the fyrst, that this suyt ex officio takē onys away, the stretes w [...]re lykely to swarme full of heretykes. And as clere as you se that ponte al redy, and that this man hath therin neyther an­swered nor ones touched suche thyn­ges as your selfe se that I sayd therin before: yet shall I make yt you anon, with the farther foly of his de­uyse double (ere we deꝑte) so clere.

¶Concernynge the seconde parte, thus lo thys man begynneth.

[Page]But [...]o putte the partye that [...] complayned on, [...] answere, and to condempne hym, yf he saye contra­rye to that the wytnesse haue sayde, not knowynge who [...]e the wytnesse, ne who be hys accusere: yt s [...] meth not reasonable to be accepted for a law. For as I haue sayde in the sayd treatyse, yf he that is accused knewe theyr names that accused him, he myght percase allege and proue so great and so vehemen [...] cause of rancour and malyce in thē that accuse hym, or beare wytnesse agaynst hym, that theyr sayenge [...] by no law ought to stande agaynst hym: as yf there were two men that had sworn the deth of an other [...] and bycause they can not brynge yt about, they ymagyne howe they maye brynge hym to all the shame and dexacyon that they can, and theruppon they a­peche hym of heresye: yf he in thys case knew [...] theyr names, he myght proue theyr rancour and malyce. And bycause he knoweth them not, he can not proue yt. And also the wytnes may be such, as sha [...] haue his landes by eschete after hys deth.

And yf it be sayde, that these cases fall so seldome [...] that yt ought lytell to be pondred: so may yt be said lyke wyse, that it falleth but seldome, that the wytness [...] in heresye stand in any feare of them, that they accuse. And then to make a generall lawe to pro­hybyte all men, that they shulde not haue knowe­ledge of the wytnes in no case, yt is not reasonable.

¶Now good readers one thynge opened vnto you whiche is trouth, which thys man of wylynesse hydeth from you, and wold make you wene the trouth were cōtrary: deuyde af­ter that knowen all this myschyefe & [Page] vnreasonabylnes that he telleth vs here into .xx. partes / & with the bare knowledge of ye one trouth, nynetene and a halfe of all hys false fayned mychyefes are gone.

¶The trouth is good chrysten rea­ders, that except onely one case, wher of he speketh in his seuēth chapiter of his deuysyon, where to let the partie know the wytnesses were parell, to whyche I haue answered hym bothe in myne apologye fyrste, and synnys euen in this same chapyter byfore: elles in all other cases, the wytnesses, whose deposiciōs shalbe takē & layed agaynste hym to proue hym an here­tyque, and vppon whyche deposycy­on sentence of condemnynge hym for an heretyke shall be gyuen agaynste hym, he shall se theym and shall here theyre deposycyons to. So that yf there be any suche great cau­ses, as this good man here ymagy­neth that myght happen, of enimyte, [Page] or hope of lucre, or any mych lesse ei­ther, the iudge both may and wyll cō syder them before the sentence.

¶But why shall he not know them forth with, when he is fyrs [...]e conuen­ted? For yt were not well done he shold, no more then the kynges coū ­sayle that many tymes call malefa­ctours byfore them vppon secrete informacyon fyrste, vse alway there by & by to dysclose who told them the mater and what / whych if they shold and by and by brynge hym forth, then though the suspecte wold cōfesse happely some thynge therby the sooner: yet sholde it be but that thynge which he thought the tother knew. where as whyle ye thyefe knoweth not who hath gyuen the informacyon, and yet thynketh by his examynacyon that among his many felowes though they be theuys all, yet some false shrewes there be, he mysse gesseth among and weneth yt were one where in dede yt [Page xxvi] was a nother / & so in stede of one felonye, to lyght there cometh twayne.

¶But at a nother time & in an other place, byfore he shall haue any iudgement theruppon, he shall cōmenly se them sworen and here them speke to.

¶And here I [...]y cōmenly, bycause that sometyme percase in poynt of iugement he shall not haue thē brought forth and sworen in his presence, nor ꝑaduenture neuer heare them speke in the mater. For they may happen to be some, y deposed and died to before hym selfe were taken / and some happely that were his felowes cōfessed his felonyes at the galowes, when they were on the lather. And some ꝑaduenture bycame approuers vhen they were caste, and called for a coroner / and the lawe kepynge no store of him but hangyng hym vp forthwith, vseth yet his informacyon & all these other to, whych may happen to cōe so many to gether & so likely to be trew, [Page] that his lyfe may go therfore, and he well worthy to, and yet neyther hym selfe nor thenqueste neuer here any one witnesse sworen, neither the fyrst nor the second, neyther at thendygh­tynge nor at hys arreyghnynge ney­ther.

¶Nowe maye yt so fortune in lyke wyse and sometyme so doth it to, that folke some good and honeste depose in cause of heresye agaynst some one man that is detected therof. And hap­pely there depose also some other of hys owne affynyte / and in deposynge agaynst that one man detecte by theyr deposycyons, a noth [...]r man of ye selfe same cōpanye yt is then walked farre of, no man can tel where, ye appereth playnly vpon al theyr othes ꝑaduenture the very chyefe heretyke of all. If he happe longe after when these wytnesses be dede, to come agayne in to ye coūtrey and teache heresyes a freshe, and one or twayne detecte [Page xxvii] hym / they shall now be sworen and shall be brought forthe face to face byfore hym, that he shall obiecte a­gaynste theym what he can byfore his iudgement passe. But yet those olde deposycyons shall not serue for nought, but are admonicula probationis, though the men be dede. And a­gaynst all reason were it that it were otherwyse. Howe be yt what they sayde he shall here / and also who they were.

¶Lo this is good chrysten readers the maner of that suyte, wherof this good man wold here make vs wene the contrarye, and that men were cō menly condempned of heresye by de­posycyons of those men whome he sholde neuer knowe. And therfore syth the trouth is in dede, that all the wrong whych he speketh of, he groū deth vpon a playn vntrouth, though he make not thys lye wyttyngly him self, but hering some folke say so, weneth [Page] that yt were trewe: yet is as I sayde before all his reason spylt / and as I tolde you the harme yt he sayeth in that poynt if he shold dyuyde it in­to [...]wenty partes, xix. partes and an halfe were nowe clerely gone. For there remayned but y one case which he wolde haue here seme comen, and yet in his seuēth chapytre of his fyrst boke he declareth hym selfe that the case is but specyall, that is to wytte, where the witnesses are kepte away for fere / elles in all the remanaunt this mannys harmes that he layeth here agaynste the law be very clere­ly gone.

¶And therfore his two gay cases of swerynge a mannys deth, & wyn­nynge a mānys land by eschete, haue place but in the specyall point of that one specyall lawe. And yet are his two cases suche as well consyde­red, are of no great effect. For yf we [Page xxviii] shold regard those two cases: ye pub­lyshynge of the wytnesses names wold seldome remedy the mater. For yt myght then as well hap, that such folke myghte hyre other that sholde beare suche false wytnesse as do the thynge theym selfe, and of lykelyhed so wolde they rather do.

¶But seynge that his cases for the farre fetchynge and lykelyhed of so seldome fortunynge, were lykely to be takē for fonde: yet for the fauour of his owne deuysynge he was lothe to scrape theym out, but excuseth the dyuysynge of them thus.

And yf yt be sayde that these cases fall so seldome that yt ought lytle to be pondered: so may it be sayd lyke wyse that yt falleth but seldome that the wyt­nesses in heresye stand in any fere of theym that they acc [...]se.

¶Nowe yf thys answere of hys were good & trew, yt it happeth as seldome that the wytnesses stand in any such feare: then he soyleth hi [...] owne [Page] reason hym selfe. For than hathe he no cause to complayne for the law to kepe the wytnesse close, made but for to serue in that specyal seldome case, where it happeth such feare to fall.

¶And therfore is hys laste cause veryly not very shamefaste, where he maketh as though the lawe were made generall, to prohybyte all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesses in no case.

¶And as for in this poynte of hys, wheruppon all his whole mater hangeth, to shew you that he sayth playn vntrew, and groundeth all this gere of alwaye kepynge wytnesses close, vppon a playne open lye: I wyll for thys tyme take none other wyt­nesses agaynste hym but hys owne playne open wordes. For in his se­uenth chapyter of hys dyuysyon, lo thus good readers he sayth.

And in the chapyter there, that begynneth Statuta quedam, it is decreed / that yf the byshoppe or other enquerours of heresye, se that any greate daunger [Page xxix] myghte come to the accusour [...] or wytnes of heresye by the great power of theym that be accused: that then they maye commaunde, that the names of the accusours or wytnesse shall not be shewed but to the bysshoppe or enquerours / or suche other lerned men as be called to them, and that shall suffyce / though they be not shewed to the party. And for the more indempnyte of the sayde accusours and wytnes it is there decreed / that the byshoppe or enquerours may enioyne such as they haue shewed the names of such wytnes vnto / to kepe them close vppon payne of excommunycacion, for dysclosynge that secrete with­out theyr lycens. And surely this is a sore law / that a man shalbe condempned / and not know the names of them that be causers therof.

¶Now good chrysten readers here you se playnely by his own wordes, that the cause of that law is specyall, & serueth but where as there is feare that the wytnesses myghte stande in dayngeour, by reason that the person detected were a man of great myght and power, which happeth very seld and almost neuer tyll it b [...] well nygh paste remedy. And therfore now you se by these wordes of hys owne, that those other wordꝭ of his are to sham­full, where he now sayth here, that ye law is generall, & forbedeth all men [Page] that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesse in no case. vpon my fayth except this good man se better how to salue this sore than I se: I wolde not haue wryten such another poynt in my boke, for more than all the paper coste and the prentynge to.

¶But nowe as I saye, syth you se that al these gre [...]es of his be gone saue in this one onely case of so great probable feare, whyle he groundeth all the remanaunt vppon a greate open vn [...]rewth: it is you se well a very seldome gryefe that is lefte. For I neuer sawe, nor to my remembraunce [...] redde, nor trust in god neuer shall se the nede, that euer any great man who [...] folke neded to fere, was condemned in thys realme for he­resye, saue onely syr Hugh olde ca­stle ones in the tyme of kyng Henry the .v. that was than lorde Cobbam / nor yet he neyther, tyll that thorowe his heresye he fell to treason to, and [Page xxx] wolde haue ben the captayne of he­retykes in a sodayne traytorouse in­surreccyon.

¶And therfore as for thys harme that this good man telleth vs here, that ryseth by the suite ex officio in heresye, this poynte is as you se both reasonable yf it happed, and in lawe suffycyently prouyded fore / and yet besyde y so selde happeth here in this realm, yt it was foly for hym to speke therof / and yet no more toucheth in dede the suite ex officio, thanne yf the suit were bygon and pursued by some great man, that wolde & fered not to professe hym selfe for accuser. And thus is this case vtterly nothīg to purpose / & all the remanaūt is (as you se also by his owne wordes pro­ued) grounded vpon great vntrouth. And therfore all this yt he hath sayd set asyde for nought: let vs now se what other harme the good man fyn­deth ferther. Lo good readers therin thus he sayth.

[Page]Also syr Tho. More denieth not, but that by reason of the law, ex de heretici [...] ca. Ad abolendam, which is recyted in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse [...] a man may be dreuen [...]o a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym, or be accursyd, as yf he be notably suspected, and yet not gylty, as it may well be: and yet he wyll not condescende, that that lawe shulde be chaunged, but sayth in fortyfyenge therof, that ve­ryly he thynketh, that he whiche can not be proued gylty in heresy, and yet vseth such maner of wayes, that all hys honest neyghbours wene he were one / & therfore in theyr cōscyence dare not swere that he is any other / is well worthy to do some penaunce. Truely thys is a merueylous persuasion, that a mā [...]hulde be put to hys purgacyon / bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is no heretyke.

¶Now good readers bycause thys good man begynneth here to fortifye hys worde, wyth that that I dyd not in my sayd .xl. chapyter of myne apo­logye denye, that a man may be dre­uen to a purgacyon wythout any of­fence in hym or be accursed, as yf he be notably suspected & yet not gylty: I wyll fyrst brynge you forth myne own wordes wryten in the sayd cha­pyter / and afterwarde than shall we se whyther he can take suche greate holde vppon my wordes, as he wold [Page xxxi] it sholde seme. Lo good readers these are my wordes. folio .220.

It may be somtyme (albe it very seld it happeth) that in heresie vpon other vehement suspycyons wythout wyt­nesses, a man may be put to hys pur­gacyon, and to penaunce also yf he fayle therof / whyche thynge why so many sholde now thynke so harde a lawe as thys pacyfyer sayth there do I can not se / nor those wyse men ney­ther that made the law. And yet were they many wyse men / and not onely as wyse, but peraduenture many mo also in nomber, than those that thys pacyfyer calleth many now, that as he sayth now do fynde the faute. For though it be alledged in the extra. de hereticis: yet was that law made in a generall counsayle. And veryly me thynketh that he whyche can not be proued gylty in heresye, and yet vseth suche maner of wayes, that all hys honest neighbours wene he were one in dede, and therfore dare not swere that in theyr conscyence they thynke [Page] hym any other: is well worthy to do some panaūce for that maner of byhauour, wherby he geueth al other men occasion to take hym for so noughty.

¶Now good readers where thys man taketh me that I say a man may be dreuen to his purgacyon wythout offence: you se well I say not so / but I say that he doth a great offence, & well wurthy were to be dreuē to his purgacyō & to do penaūce to, if he be not able to purge hym selfe / but haue vsed hym selfe so lyke an heretyke in all good folkes opiniō, yt he can fynd no good folke yt dare in theyr cōsciēce swere that they thynke other wyse. This saye I is a great offence and worthy to dryue hym to this poynte. And this good man sayth that I de­nye not, but that he maye by the law be dreuyn to it without offence.

¶And where as he sayth I denye not that he may be dreuē therto with­out wytnesse: wherfore not I praye [Page xxxii] you? For the suspycyons beyng pro­ued by wytnesses, to be notable and vehemēt, wyll they not be cause suf­ficyent to dryue hym to pourge hym selfe of that infamy, or els to do pe­naūce for bryngyng hym selfe therin to, but yf there be wytnessys of hys expresse heretycall wordes?

No sayth this good man, & meruay­leth yt I could thynk this any reason. But why he shold̄ so meruayle at y mater, or why I shold be ashamed to thinke so, therof telleth vs this good man no tale at all, but onely sayth, Truely thys is a meruelous persuasion, that a man sholde be put to his purgacyon bycause hys neygh­bours dare not swere that he is none heretyke.

¶Meruelouse god where was this mannys mynde whan he wrote these wordes? do I say yt he shall be put to his purgaciō, bicause his neighbours wyl not swere with him? nay I say y whā there be by wytnesses sworen byfore his face, suspicions of heresie ꝓued vpō hym: thā may thordinary [Page] put hym to such purgacyon, to proue whyther they wyll swere wyth hym or no. For whan they wyll not but re­fuse it / what mad man wold say that he shalbe put to that purgacyon thā, whan he hath fayled therof, and yt all redy paste. This man speketh here as one that perceyued no pyece of the mater.

¶For where as I declare that he is in great offence yt so vseth hym self, yt none of his honest neighbours dare swere / that in theyr conscyences he is any other than an heretyke: this mā taketh it as though they that sholde swere wyth hym in his purgacyon, sholde precysely swere that he were none heretyke / where as theyr othe shall not be what he is in dede, but what them selfe thynke of hys othe / they shall not swere that he is none heretyke, but that they byleue that he hath sworen trew, in denyeng tharti­cles sayd vnto hys charge. Lyke as [Page xxxiii] in the wageour of a lawe, they shall not swere that the defendaunt oweth not the money, but that they byleue that he swereth treuth.

¶I meruayle in good fayth yt thys good man handeleth thys mater in this maner, & without any tellynge why, meruayleth so mych yt I wold thynke that law reasonable.

But surely though he coulde make me a proper reason for his part, and my selfe another for the same syde also: yet wolde I thynke my selfe ryght vnreasonable, yf I shold vpō his reason & myn, aduise & counsayle this realme in a mater concernynge the conseruacyō of the fayth, to alter and chaunge that law that was made by so great aduyse, by an whole generall counsayle of all chrystendome / wherin there were (I dowte it not) men that had as good zele to kepe in­nocētes out of trouble, as any of vs twayne / and mych more reason also [Page] than we both haue to. But that point that I shewed hym in my apologye, that the same prouisyon that is made in ye saw ad abolendā, was also made in a generall counsayle: ye tale he letteth go by, as though he herde it not.

¶But than he cometh forth wyth a worde or two of a ferther fawte in the law, which eyther the man vnderstandeth not what in meneth, or ellys is it herd for any man to thynke yt he meneth wel. These are his wordꝭ so And veryly the law is that theyr othe in that case shulde not be accepted: for the sayde chapyter Ad abolendam, is that yf a man be notably suspected of heresye, that he shall purge hym selfe after the wyl of thordynarye or be accursed: and so the purgacyon of hy [...] neyghbour wyll not serue: Lette euery man therfore consyder, whether the sayd law be indysfe­rent or not. And yf it be not, lette them put to theyr hande to haue it broken. And & thynke veryly, they shall deserue great thanke of god, yf they tourne it to a more indyfferent waye, then it is at nowe. For vnder thys maner the moost innocent man that is, may of malyce be reported to be suspected of heresye and be not so in dede, and so be dreuen to hys purgacyon or be accursed: and then there is another law, that yf he in that case of an indurate mynde stande so accursed a yere, he shalbe punished as an heretike and that is by the law, Extra de hereticis, ca. Exc [...] municamu [...].

[Page xxxiiii]¶This prouysyon good readers yt he speketh, whyche is in the lawe ad abolendam, recited in the .v. boke of the decretalis in the tytle de hereticis yt such as were suspecte shold purge them selfe at the arbitrement & discrecion of thordynary, was as I before haue sayed afterward, loked vppon & alowed in the generall counsayle called consiliū latranense, as euery man may soone perceyue that wyll well consyder the paragraffe excō ­municamꝰ afterward in the same ty­tle. For where as ye law there saith, Qui inuēti fuerit sola suspitione no­tabiles, nisi statim innocētiā suā con­grua purgatione mōstrauerint: these wordꝭ congrua purgatione be refer­red vnto the tother law ad abolendā therof made byfore, as bothe appe­reth by such doctours as wryte vpō ye lawes / & also to hym yt wyl cōsider it wel it wel appereth by y self text. For in ye paragraf Excō. be rehersed [Page] part of the very wordes of the law [...] ad abolendam, wherby we may se yt the counsayle there loked vpon that lawe. And so was I saye that pro­uisyon which this man calleth so vnreasonable, not onely made by pope Lucius the .iii. but after also made a­gayne by ratificacyō by pope Inno­cent ye .iii. in an hose generall coūsaile. And rede the stories who so wyll, and he shall fynde bothe by Platiua and Cronica cronicarū to, that both this pope Lucius and thys pope Innocēt were very vertuouse men.

And here had it ben reasō now ther­fore, yt this good man sith he fyndeth in this point so gret a fawt in ye wittꝭ of both these good popes, & in al thē y were membres of that generall counsayle, and in all the wyttꝭ of al chry­sten regyons that haue vsed and al­lowed yt lawe for good euer synnys: reason wolde I say / that he sholde at the leste haue layed some reason [Page xxxv] here, wherfore ye lawe can not please hym, that he whiche though he be not proued gysty of the dede, is yet pro­ued suspecte, shold purge hym selfe after tharbitrement of thordynarye, that is to wytte in suche maner wyse as thordynary sholde thynke conue­nyent, vpō the qualytees of yt person & cyrcūstaūces of ye cause cōsydered.

¶Suppose now yt there were none other maner of purgacion, but by his neyghbours swerynge wyth hym, & that those wordꝭ ad arbitriū epi were not writen in the law: were it yet rea­son to accepte his oth in what so euer maner the man wolde hym selfe de­uyse it? and with as few handes as hym selfe lyste appoynt? and with what maner folke so euer hym selfe wolde brynge?

¶Nay syr. For it may so be, yt there shalbe good cause why somtyme and in some place, that thordynary sholde not putte some man to that kynde of [Page] purgacion which yf he dyd, were he neuer so noughty, he shold be sure of compurgatours, peraduenture mo than inough. ¶For it hath ben sene in many cūtreys ere this & somtyme in england to, that some euyll precher prechyng playne opē heresyes, shold yet (if he myght haue ben put to such purgacyō) haue lacked none handes to lay on the boke with hym, that he neuer spake suche wordes.

How be it where ye wordꝭ are opē & playn heresye, ye law hath ꝓuided an other way for ye remedy good inough

¶But thā haue there ben some pre­chers such ere this, ye techyng playne heresies to theyr familiars secretely, wold prech in such wyse abrode, that theyr wordꝭ shold haue two senses, & one bote serue for eyther legge like a shypmans hose / & so shold be tempered as the peple shold haue occasyon alway to take them to the wurst / and hym selfe yf he were examined wold say before thordinary & swere to, that [Page xxxvi] he neuer ment but the beste.

¶Now whan it shold by good wyt­nesses appere, yt his maner was such the peple toke mych harme therby, & alwaye toke his wordꝭ so that they thought he so mēt thē, y he purposed by them to set forth & aduaūce those thyngꝭ yt were stark heresies in dede: yf thordinary shold thā appoint him with other cōpurgatours to purge this suspiciō, were these suspiciōs neuer so vehemēt, he shold lacke no cō ­purgatours to purge hym self euery weke, & thā do as he dyd before. And many good symple folke takyng him euē as he ment, shold fall into his he­resyes y whyle / & wene while he preched so styll, yt to byleue ye way were no perell. ¶And therfore those wise men that made ye law, left ye thyng in thordinarys discreciō to assigne hym that is proued suspect of heresy, such kynde of purgacyon as the cyrcum­staunces of the person, and the peple and the tyme shall most requyre.

[Page]¶And therfore wyll thordynary to some man so suspecte, somtyme as­sygne hym (to purge his suspycyon yt with his lewd maner of prechynge he is fallen in, to the greate hurte of his herers) that he shall openly con­fesse yt those heresyes that the people toke hym to mene, be very salse here syes in dede / and openly shall deteste them and swere that he so byleueth them to be / and swere that he neither ment to teche theym, nor neuer was mynded yt any mā shold take hym so, nor neuer wold afterward teche nor hold heresies, but abiure thē for euer.

¶And yet for the ferther purgacyō of such suspiciō, the ordynary myght also enioyne hym some certayn thyn­ges to do, suche as maye declare the more clereli, yt he is not of such mind / as open prechyng agaynste the selfe same heresyes, & the doynge of some suche thynges as those heresyes dyd stande agaynste.

[Page xxxvii]¶And now by this purgacyon thys good shall he do, that yf he wolde after preache the same thynges agayne though he vsed agayne such a nother wyly fashyon: yet wolde his audy­ence then thynke thus (as many as hadde any mynde to be good) eyther this man meaneth nowe by his wor­des to teache vs that poynt that hym selfe hath abiured, and then lette vs not lerne the thynge of hym that he wolde in no wyse we shold / or elles he meaneth to t [...]ache yt vs styll for al his abiuracion. And then wherfore sholde we be so madde to byleue a false wreche, yt wold make vs byleue now, that that thynge were trewe / whyche hym selfe hath openly cōfessed and sworen to be false.

¶But then wyll happely this good man say, that this abiuracyon is perylouse for iubardye of the relapse. The parell of deth by relapse is not vppon euery abiuracyon. But of [Page] trouth he that is abiured vppon such thynges proued, as maketh hym not sleyghtly but very vehemently sus­pected, yf he fall after into heresye, putteth hym selfe in parell to fall in­to the fyre. And very good reason yt is that yt be so. And a man may some tyme be so suspecte of felony by rea­son of sore presumpcyons, yt though no man saw hym do yt, nor hym selfe neuer confesse yt, but saye and swere to that he neuer hadde yt: yet may he be founden gyltye of yt, and therup­pon hāged for yt, and haue no wrōge at all.

¶And thus this prouysyon for purgacyon at the dyscrecyon of the ordy­narye, is not I truste so vnreasonable, nor they so vnreasonable that made yt, nor they so vnreasonable yt ratified it, nor al they so vnresonable yt thys two or thre hūdred yere haue accepted and allowed yt, but that yt maye nowe stande by thys good mā ­nys [Page xxxviii] leue at this daye as well as yt hath standen all this whyle before. But yet is there one thīg yt he taketh for a thing very sore. For thā is there (sayth he) a nother law that if he that is so proued suspect, refuse to pourge hym self at the discrecyon of thordynary, and be for hys con [...]umacy excommunycate: that in that case yf he of an obdurate harte stande so accursed an whole yere, he shalbe punyshed as an heretyke. And that ys (as he sayth) by the law Ex­tra de hereticis, capitulo Excommunicamus.

¶This prouisyon was made as I tolde you in the sayde generall coun­sayle. And where he bringeth it forth as though yt were a very sore thyng and a cruell: yt is in dede very fauorable. For sauynge that I wyll not do as he doth, go fynd fautes in their doynges, that were so many so mych better, and had so myche more wytte then I: elles could I lay a lytle better cause to proue that prouysyon ouer fauorable, then euer this good man shall fynde whyle he lyueth, to proue that prouysyon to sore.

And surely he that beynge proued [Page] suspect, and refuseth in such reasonable maner to purge hym self therof, as his ordynarye shall by his dyscrecyon assygne hym, whych must both by lawe & all reason be his iudge and not hym self, sheweth hym self lytle to force or care, though folke wene he were an heretyque: whych thyng sore aggreueth the suspycyon that he veryly is one in dede. And then whē he wyll rather be ones accursed, then of suche suspycyon yet to purge and clere hym selfe: he yet encreaseth ye suspycyon twyse so sore. But fynal­ly when rather then to purge that su­spycyon, he contynueth excommunycated all the whole yere, and neuer wyll be purged in the whyle, but yf he maye haue yt accepted in suche a faynte fashyon as hym selfe lyste to offre: the suspycyon of his heresyes from sore and vehement, tourne by suche dealynge into pleyne open and vyolent, so that he can in reason be [Page xxxix] none other rekened but a playne heretyque in dede, whome to tolerate so longe doth somtyme lytle good. And then syth the law is, that such as the fauour of the chyrche shall preserue from the temporall handes, shold by the lawe be onely those, which vpon theyr deteccyon, tourne of theyr own offre mekely by and by, and shewe good tokens of ryghte harty repen­taunce: I wyll let no man from thinclinacyon towarde pytye, in preser­uynge the lyfe of any man / when so euer he seme penytent. But yet surely when the chyrch receyueth agayne that man, that by his obstynate dea­lynge, wyth abydynge excomunicate and contempnyng the great curse all the whole yere, rather then he wolde purge the suspycyon of his heresye, but yf he may purge it after his own swete wyll, proueth hym self at last, to haue ben an heretyque so longe, & all that whyle wold not retourne but [Page] euer more drawe bakke: yf thordynary for all that receyue hym to grace agayne, and kepe hym styll and pre­serue him from the seculare handes: I wyll not saye that he doth wrong / but fyndynge hym yet repentaunte, fayne wolde I se hym saued.

¶But yet wythout doute as farre as I can se, thordynarye to saue the mannys lyfe of pytye, strecheth out wyth his teth the lawe and reason both, so farre that euyn scantely can any of the both holde.

¶And therfore these lawes beynge suche as they be, made and ratyfyed by whole generall counsayle, accep­ted and vsed so longe thorow al chrystendome: when thys good man co­meth now forth, and vppon his own bare reason as bare as euer I herd yet in all my lyfe, bycause onely that an innocente may somtyme take harme, whyche may happen vppon any lawe that euer all the world can [Page xxxix] make, wherby there shalbe deuysed any punyshment for the euyl folke, he byddeth euery man cōsyder nowe whyther the law be iuste or not, & if it be not, byddeth euery mā put to theyr handes to haue yt broken and make a better, and sayeth that he thynketh they shall haue great thanke of god therfore: his request is now no bet­ter, but in effecte euyn this, that a­gaynste euery wyse mannes reason well approued hytherto, euery man shold in this mater now, eyther trust vnto his, or els at the lest wise euery man to his owne / and in stede of a better old law, make a new mych worse. For if his deuise were folowed: it appereth playnely so there sholde / and heresyes sholde grow vp on heyght, and the catholyque fayth decaye. And then god saue vs frome that thanke of god that shortely we shold wyth such dealynge deserue.

¶Thus haue I good readers as you se clerely confuted this good mā nys [Page] answere in bothe the pryncypa [...] poyntes, of whyche the tone was wherin he mynded to shewe that in heresye the suyte of offyce myghte be lefte, and that by the leuyng there shold none harme folow to the catholyque faythe / bycause heretyques myght as well come to correccyon by the waye of open accusers as by that maner suyte.

¶But in this poynte you haue sene clerely, that his deuyse wolde neuer so serue the mater / but that yt were very lykely so to mynyshe in thys realme the catholyque fayth with encrease of heresyes, that thindygnacyon of god were sore to be fered ther­by to folowe theron: and the realme to fall in trouble and besynesse, with insurreccion of the same rebellyous [...] heretyques, that by the chaunge of that law had so bene suffred to grow as other countreys haue ben of late, and this realme was ere this so nere [Page xli] lyke to haue ben / that for thauoyding of the lyke parell to fall afterwarde, yt prouyded by parlyament of great polycye / for the better repressyng of heresyes, to fortyfye that lawe and gyue thordynaryes yet greater pow­er to maynteyne yt / and wyth temporall assystēce to make yt more strong.

¶His secunde poynte was to shew that of the kepynge of that law, there sholde growe great harme / bycause the law is so vnreasonable he sayth, that innocentes may come to trouble therby wythout offence.

¶This parte howe properly thys good man hath proued, that haue you sene also / and that he therin is so full and whole confuted, that when he readeth yt agayne, I suppose he will not now greatly lyke it.

¶Now these two thus handeled he cometh to the thyrde poynte, whyche though I graunted hym all to ge­ther, yet were he neuer the nere. [Page] For yt poynt is suche as yf I wynne it, thanne it maketh my parte more playne: but on the tother syde yf I loste it & he wanne it, yet were myne playne inough. And stronge inough were my part wyth the fyrste poynt alone. For yf by the leuynge of the suit of office shold folow thencreace of heretikes, as euery man I thynke that wyt hath, may well se that there wolde / than though there wold some other harme happē somtyme therof, yet must that other harme in reason, rather be borne than that.

¶But now to come good readers vnto the thyrde poynt, whyche yf he wan all together coulde very lytell serue hym / ye shall se hym yet by goddes grace, wynne hym neuer a pyece.

¶The thyrde poynt good readers in myn apology you se well your self entendeth nothynge ellys, but by en­ [...]emple of the comen lawes of thys [Page] realme, to shew that the same spyrytuall law, whyche this man wolde proue vnreasonable, is not in d [...]de proued vnreasonable by thys thyng that he here putteth for the ꝓfe / that is to saye, bycause that by that lawe sometyme yt myght happe that a mā myght fall in parell of a cryme why­che he commytted not. For yf yt so were nowe, that in all the cases that I rehersed of the commen lawe, there coulde neuer no man that hadde not done the dede, take any harme so myche as a phylyppe / yet though I hadde myssed in those ensāples, the th [...]nge myghte yet be trewe. For there m [...]ghte be for all that, other ensa [...]ples ynough, bothe in other good la [...]es and in the same to, th [...] a lawe w [...]re not vnreasonab [...], nor to be put a [...] myght hap [...]e somtime some m [...]n take some harme that neuer dyd the dede that [Page] were layde to his charge. And of trouth this conclusyon is so clere that yt nedeth no profe at all. And ther­fore though he wanne al that poynt / yet hadde he loste the mater. But let vs now a lytle se whether he wynne thys poynte or no.

¶And bycause the effecte of all hys answere lyeth all waye in this, that he sayeth all waye that the sample of the comen lawe that I laye, is not lyke the thynge that I resemble yt vnto in the spyrytuall lawe: I shall fyrste reherse you myn owne wordes in myne apologye / and then shall I reherse you hys wordes here, [...]at when you haue herd bothe tw [...]yne, whether they be lyke or vnlyke ye [...]aye the m [...]re surely iuge. These were [...]aders m [...] w [...]rdes.

And [...] thynketh t [...]at he whych can not be proued gylty [...] [...]n heresye, and yet v [...]eth suche man [...]r o [...] [Page xliii] wayes that all hys honeste neygh­bours wene he were one, and therfore dare not swere that in theyr cōscience they thynke hym any other / is well worthye me thynketh to do some pe­naunce for that maner of byhauour, wherby he geueth all other folke occasyon to take hym for so noughtye.

And by the comē law of this realme, many tymes vppon suspycyon the iuges a warde write to enquyre of what fame and behauour the man ys in his countrey / and hym self lyeth som­tyme styll in pryson tyll the retourne / and yf he be returned good, that is to wyt yf he be in a maner purged, then is he delyuered / & yet he payeth his fees ere he go. And yf he be retourned noughte / then vse the iuges to bynde hym for hys good aberynge, and som tyme suertyes wyth hym to, suche as theyr dyscrecyon will allowe. And then to lye styll tyll he fynde theym, is somtyme as myche penaunce to the tone, as the spyrytuall iudge in­ [...]oyneth [Page] to the tother. For the tone cometh to the barre as openly as the tother to the consystorye / and som­tyme hys feters waye a good pyece of a fagotte, bysydes that they lye lenger on the tone mannys legges, then the fagotte on the tothers sholdre. And yet ys there no remedye but bothe these must be done, both in the tone court and in the tother / or ellys in stede of one harme (whych to hym that deserueth yt not happeth sel­dome, and as seldome I am sure in heresye as in thefte, and myche more seldome to) ye shall haue tenne ty­mes more harme happen dayly to folke as innocēt as they / and of innocentes many made nocentes, to the destruccyon of theym selfe and o­ther to, bothe in goodes bodye and soule.

¶ To thys pyece lo good reader thys is this good mannys answere.

[Page xliii]Then he goeth further for mayntenaunce of the sayde suyte Ex officio, and resembleth it to arestyng for suspecyon of felonye, and to the suertye of good aberynge, and to indytementes: wheruppon men be put to answere at the commen lawe. And how farre these resemblances varye from the suyte Ex officio, he in some place openeth yt hym selfe. But yet for a more playne declaracyon therin, I shall saye a lytle farther in that mater. Fyrst as to the arres [...]ynge for suspycyon of felonye, yt is in dede an olde lawe of thys realme, that for suspycyon of felonye, a man may be arrested, so that he that doth arres [...]e hym vppon a reasonable cause, doth suspecte hym: but yt is a generall rule, that he shall neuer be put to answe­re vpon that arreste, but proclamacyon shalbe made that yf any man wyll lay any thynge agaynst hym, that is so suspected, that it shal be herde: & yf none such cōe he shalbe delyuered without fine or a [...]y o­ther punyshmēt, with a good exhortaciō of the iudges, that he shall take good hede howe he ordereth hym selfe in tyme to come. And then mayster More lykeneth the penaunce of suche a man that hath ben in pryson vppon suspycyon of felonye, and so delyue­red by proclamacyon, to the bearynge of a fagotte for heresye. For he sayth, that the one of them shal come as openly to the barre as the other to the con­systory: And that sometyme his fetters shall [...]ey a good pece of the fagot, besydes that they lye lenger on the one mannys legges, then the fagotte on the other mannys shulder: but he reherseth not howe they lye many tymes lenger in pryson for heresye, then they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge. And ouer that I dare say, that there are but few, but that they hadde wel leuer abyde the payne to be thryse acquyted by proclamacyon, and peraduēture ofter, thē ones beare a fagot for heresy.

[Page]¶Howe goeth nowe good readers thys answere of thys good man vnto the purpose, to proue the trouble of hym that ys arrested vppon su­spycyon of felonye, to be vnlyke to the trouble of hym that ys sued ex officio for heresye, touchynge the poynte that I resemble theym for?

¶The point ye wote wel sor why­che I speke of tharrestyng for suspycyon of felonye, is to shew, that lyke wyse as yt may happen a man for heresye to fall in trouble sometyme though he were none heretike ī dede [...]: so may yt happen a man somtyme to be troubled vppon suspycyon of fe­l [...]nye, though he be no felon in dede: and yet bothe the tone lawe necessa­rye and the tother to / and neyther of bothe maye be forborne. Hathe this good man proued vs the contrarye of this? that you se well he hath not. And then hathe he not perdye proued [Page xlv] them vnlyke.

¶He weneth he sayth somewhat, whan he telleth vs that vpon tharre­stynge vppon suspycyon of felonye he shall not be put to answere tyll he be indighted. What is hys trouble the lesse for that? If he lye in pryson tyll the sessyon as he maye happe to do were it not more his ease to be putte to answere before and acquytte, yf he be not fawty (for of suche folke we speke) than for lacke of puttynge to answere lye styll in pryson y lenger?

¶As for that, that in conclusyon yf no man laye nought to his charge at the sessyons, he shall be delyuered by proclamacions / so shall he that is su­spected of heresye to: For yf there be nothynge founden agaynste hym, he shall neyther be dreuen to abiuracyō nor purga [...]iō, but be deliuered quyte, how so euer that eyther thy [...] man myssetake or wolde make other men myssetake the mater to the contrary.

[Page]¶And as to that, that the tone shall pay no fyne / no more shall the tother neyther.

¶Yf this man wyll peraduenture say, syth that thordinary fyndeth the man not suspect in the ende, why dyd he take and arreste hym for suspecte in the begynnynge. Bycause that in the begynnyng the man semed vpon good consyderacyons suspecte, and semed lykely to fle, and vppon his examynacyon the mater full serched out, the causes of suspycyon so well auoyded, that thordynary declareth hym for dyscharged wythout any o­ther purgacyon. But yet hath it myshapped hym to haue some harme the meane whyle / and so hath it hym also that was arrested vppon suspycyon of felony that neuer was after in­dyghted, but delyuered forth fre vpō the proclamacyon.

¶I se no great dyfference bytwene these two men in all this mater yet, [Page xlv] saue that the tone lyeth at his owne fyndynge, the tother at the bysshop­pes coste.

¶For where as this man sayth, that he whyche is delyuered by proclamacyon, hath, alwaye geuen hym by the iustycꝭ a good lessō at his departing: yf the bysshoppe geue not the tother a good lesson at hys departynge to, thā is he somwhat to blame in dede / but in [...]ood fayth I here saye that he doth so to. And therfore where is this dyfference yet? I loke alwaye for that. For as for the shame of open brynging forth, is both one as I said / sauynge that the sessyon hath comēly mych more people present to gase vppon the tone, than in the consystory loketh vppon the tother.

¶And where thys man sayth, that they lye lenger in pryson for heresye, than they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge / yf he speke of those whyche are in conclu­syon [Page] founden in no more fawte con­cernynge heresye, than those are that are deliuered by ꝓclamaciō be foūdē at the sessyon concernynge felony / I dare be bolde to tell hym nay. And I am very sure the trouth wyll proue so to. But now yf he speke of those that appere vppon thende in suche fawte that by the law they be boundē to abiure / than is it good reason that they lye lenger in dede. And so lye there as reasō is sometyme some for felonye to, repryed vpon causys frō one sessyon to another, and somtyme kepte you se well all the whole yere and more. And that somtyme such as are in conclusyon neuer indyghted neyther, but after all that delyuered by proclamacyon, and yet good cau­ses in ye meane whyle why they were kepte so. And therfore where as this man sayth, that they be in worse case that bere a fagotte, very trouth it ys somewhat and so is it reason they be. [Page xlvii] For they be not fawtelesse but conuicted of the fawte. And our dyspycyōs is of innocentes that happen by the lawe, the tone lawe or the tother, to take harme without theyr fawte. For yf he wolde compare the fawty with the fawtye, than must he cōpare the tone berynge the faggotte, with the tother at the very fyrste tyme borne vppe wyth the rope.

¶And therfore I dyd in that place, not onely shew [...] that he that is in­nocent, maye by arrestynge for felo­nye happe to haue as myche harme, as he yt is innocent and arrested for heresye: but that he maye happen to haue sometyme also as mych harme, as he that for the fyrst tyme is foun­den fawty in heresye and playnely conuycted therof. And surely saue for the ferther perell vppon hys fer­ther fawte, so maye it happe in dede and yet as I sayed in my dyaloge the lawe muste nedes be kepte, [Page] but yf you wyll by the chaūge haue fyue theuys for one. And thus as for this pyece of arrestynge for suspyciō of felony, the case hath he not proued vnlyke, towchynge the purpose that I putte it for, but for my parte very stronge. And so hath thys good man in thys fyrst pyece of the thyrde point a very great fall.

¶Than cometh he nexte vnto ano­ther case that I spake of also, that is to wyt arrestynge vppon good abe­rynge. And where as in myne apolo­gye that pyece is the thyrde, ye pyece in hys answere he maketh the secōd / and I se why well inough. For syth hym selfe seeth that he answereth it so slenderly, he wrappeth it vp in the myddes, bycause it sholde be the lesse marked, and wold ende with another pyece wherin hym selfe weneth tha [...] he sayth somwhat better.

¶Now as for this good aberynge, to thende yt ye may se the better how [Page xlvii] gayly this good man answereth it, I shall fyrste reherse you the wordes of myne apology that he maketh this answere to.

¶After that I haue she weth there, that ye iudges of the spyrytuall court be not so folysshe, but that they had leuer not medle with any man, saue onely vppon some suche open inqui­sycyon as are indyghtementes of fe­lonye for auoydynge of obloquy, sa­uyng that necessyte compelleth them to take thys way, for feare that with sufferaunce of heresyes to go forth & grow, all myghte at length thorow goddes displeasure very farre grow to nought / I say there farther thus folio .225.

Necessyte somtyme causeth also both the temporall iuges and the kynges counsayle, to put some folke to busy­nesse or dyshonestye somtyme, wyth­out eyther iury or bryngynge of the accuser to the profe of the mater in the partyes presence.

[Page]For yf the iudge knowe by sure enformacyon, that some one man is of such euyll demeanure amonge his neyghbours, that they may not [...]ere it / and yet that the man is bysyde so vyolent and so iuberdouse, that none of them dare be aknowen to speke of it: wyll there no iudges vpon many secrete cōplayntes made vnto them, without makynge the party preuye who tolde hym that tale, bynde that busy troubelouse man to good abe­rynge? I suppose yes, and haue sene it so to / and wronge wolde it be some tyme wyth good pore peasyble folke in the countrey, but yf it were so done amonge. And my selfe whan I was chauncellour, vpon suche secrete en­formacyon haue put some out of cō ­myssyon and offyce of iustyce of the peace, whyche els for mych money I wold not haue done, & yet yf I were in the tone rome styll and they in the tother agayne, but yf they be mended (wherof I neyther than sawe nor ye [...] here any lykelyhed) I wold put them out agayne, and neuer tell them who [Page xlix] told me the tales yt made me so to do [...]

¶Lo good readers here you se, that in thys pyece I mene nothynge els, but that where as this good man fyndeth a fawte that the spyrytual iudge sholde medle wyth any man for he­resye without an open accusour com­playnyng to hym, or an open presen­temēt in ye begynnyng / I shew there that necessyte is the cause, and forth wyth afterwarde I proue it, whiche thys good man dyssembleth here and inuerteth here thordre for the nonys. And I shew that necessite (lest mych more harme sholde grow theron) causeth the temporall iudges & the kyn­ges honorable counsayle to, to putte some man to busynesse somtyme and so to dishonesty both, without eyther indyghtemēt, or open accusour, or suffryng hym to make answere eyther / and thus be they fayne to do, but yf they shold suffre many great harmes to growe. Now marke well I re­quyre [Page] you how substancyally thys good man answereth thys. These are hys wyse wordes so.

And then as to the arrestynge for good abearynge, trouth it is, that a man by commaundement of the iustyces may so be arrestyd, but he shall neuer be put to answere vppon that arrest, but onely bounde, and suretyes with hym of his good aberynge. And yf he can no suche surety fynde, and he haue lyen there longe in pryson, then the [...] iuges by theyr [...]yscresyon may sende a wrytte to enquere of hys fame, and of hys behauour, whyche is called a wryt de gestu et fama [...] wherof syr Tho. More maketh mencyon in hys apologye: and yf it be founde for hym vppon that wrytte, that he is of good fame and behauour, then he shalbe delyuered. Wherby mayster More sayth, he is in a maner purged, and by that sayenge it semeth that hys meanynge is, that that desyuerye shulde be resembled to hys purgacyon vppon the su­spycyon of heresye, as is sayd before. But how ferre they be vnlyke, it appereth thus: when a man is de­lyuered vppon the sayd wrytte De gestu et fama, he is delynered [...] as a man proued to be of good honestye and to be clered by hys neyghbours, of that he was spspected of. And when he is purged vpon the suyte E [...] officio, or for suspicion of heresye, he is put to penaunce by thordynarye, as a man suspected, wherof he is not clered, and so shall he be taken amonge his neyghbours, as a man worthy to do that penaunce for hys offences, wherfore it appereth [...]uydentely, that they be nothynge lyke [...]

¶In this answere good reader one piece he answereth with an vntrouth [Page l] another piece he leueth halfe vnan­swered, and to another pyece he ma­keth none answere at all.

¶For where as he saith, that he that is purged of heresye in the suyte ex officio, is put vnto penaunce by the ordynary as a man suspecte, wherof he is not clered: this man sayth vn­trewe, and woteth not also what he meneth. For the spyrytuall iudge not onely (as I haue sayde) though he were sore suspected in the beginnyng whan he toke hym, yet yf he fynde in the xamynacyon those suspicyons clered: he putteth hym to no ferther bu­synesse at all, but also yf it be not so fully clered, but that there remayne some tokens of suspycyon, of whych he thynke it good to pourge hym by ye othe of hym self & some other cōpour gatours with hym, he putteth hym after yt purgacion vnto no penaunce neyther. But now yf it so be, yt there be wel ꝓued such suspiciōs as are so [Page] vehement, that though they proue not precysely ye dede, yet make euery man that hereth thē, that he can none other wyse thynke: there wyll the ordynary cause hym to abiure / and yt rather to purge hym of the suspycyō that he were styll nought and after­warde styll wolde be nought, than yt he was such before. And than for vsyng hym self in such wyse before: though he do penaunce he hath but right. ¶But in all those other cases of suspiciō purged, he saith vntrew / for they do no penaunce at all.

¶Now concernynge the good abe­rynge awarded by the iustyces: he answereth yt it is trew / but it is he sayth vnlyke vnto this mater, bycause the iustyces (sayth he) whā he hath long lyen in pryson, maye by theyr dyscre­cyon (yf he can fynd no suertyes) a ward a wrytte de gestu et fama.

¶This is but half an answere, nor scant so mych neyther. For fyrst hym [Page li] selfe sayth that this wryt they maye sende out after that ye man hath long lyen in pryson / so that than the man yet wythout presentement or open accusour hath had that longe lyenge in pryson in the meane whyle for hys [...]uyl demenure at home among hys neyghbours, wherof they durste not openly make complaynt. And thys doth as you se thys good man deny, whych is for my purpose inough.

¶But than saith he ferther for me, in that he sayth they may award that wrytte yf they wyll. wherin he im­plyeth that yf they wyl not, they may vpon good dyscrecyon lette hym yet lye styll & let the wrytte alone. And so hath he therfore putte in one poynt ferther for me.

¶But yet hath this good man one stoppe gappe for me styll, to proue alwaye that my sample is not lyke / and that is that where as in the suyte ex officio, men be put to answere vpō [Page] this arreste and imprysoment vppon̄ good aberynge, the man shall neuer be putte to answere.

¶For answere of this euasyon I wyll aske this good man this, that he which is in pryson vpō good aberyng shall neuer be put to answere, why­ther is it his profyte or his losse? If his losse: than his not puttyng to an­swere, maketh ye mater of my resem­blyng, mych the more strong for me. And yf this good man dare answere me yt it is his profite: than wyll I no more but praye hym to put the felow in choyse / & than yf hym selfe chose it for the better, let hym lye styl for me.

¶This you se good readers that this man sayth not nay, but that vpō good aberynge by dyscressyon of the iustyces, for all the wrytte de gestu & fama, a man maye lye longe in pry­son & some peraduēture euer, how be it of trouth I trow it happeth not so.

¶And yet can neither this good man [Page lii] say, nor I suppose no man ellys, but that it maye somtyme happe by pos­sybylyte, that all that informacyon were wronge. But that is a thynge not lykely to happe so often, but that yf we sholde for suche may happys, put away yt ordre whiche order very necessyte brought vp: there wolde mych myschyefe grow, & many great harmes wold there thā happe ī dede.

¶Now as towchyng that I sayde, that the kynges counsayle vsed also somtyme vppon great secrete infor­macion to put some folke to busynes and to some dishonesty to / and I let­ted not to laye some sample in myne owne dede whyle I was chauncel­lour my self, by puttyng some out of cōmyssyō in theyr contreys / which dishonesty saue for such secrete informacyon, I wold not for an hūdred poūd haue done thē, & dare yet vpō such se [...]ret informaciō very well auow the doyng / & dowt not but yt yf I sholde [Page] declare the cause openly, bothe good men & wyse mē wold allow my dede: to all thys poynte lo this good man sayeth nothynge at all, but letteth it go by his eares as though he neuer herde it.

¶And thus as I tolde you, concer­nynge thys pyece of good aberynge: thys good answerer hath here borne hym selfe so wel, that some parte he answereth with vntrouth, some part he answereth a greate deale lesse thā halfe, and some parte neuer a deale. If men be content to take this fashyō for answerynge: let any man make than agaynste me as many bokes as he wyll, and putte in what mater he lyst, and I shall neuer nede to study mych for an answere, but may make answerys to theym all shortely and shorte inough, and answere a longe boke in space of one paper [...]efe.

¶But now lette vs se how he han­deleth this thyrde piece of endyghte­mentes [Page liii] at the sessyons. For that pyece he setteth in the rere warde, to staye therwyth all the felde. But nowe that you may se what strength he hath in that warde: I shall fyrste brynge you forth that warde agaynst whyche yt fyghteth. In myne apologye these are mye wordes lo.

And bycause thys pacyfyer taketh yt for so sore a thynge in the spyrytuall lawe, that a man shall be called ex officio for heresy, where he shal not know his accuser: yf we sholde chaunge the spyrytuall lawe for that cause, thē hadde we nede to chaunge the temporall to, in some suche poyntes as chaunge yt when ye wyll, and ye shal chaunge yt into the worse for aughte that I can se, but yf it be better to haue mo theuys then fewer.

For now yf a man be endyghted at a sessyons, and none euydens geuen openly at the barre (as many be, and many maye well be. For thendytours [Page] may haue euydēce gyuen them a ꝑte, [...] or haue herde of the mater ere they came there, and of whome be they not bounden to tell, but be rather boundē to kepe yt close, for they be sworen to kepe the kynges counsayle and theyr owne) shall then the partye that is endyghted be put vnto no besynesse a­boute his acquytayle? And who shall tell hym there the names of his accu­ser, to entytle hym to his wryte of cō spyracye? This pacyfyer wyll perad­uenture saye, that the same twelue men / that are hys endyghtours are his accusers, & therfore he may know them. But what helpeth that his vn­deserued vexacyon yf he were faute­less? For amēdes the law geueth him none agaynst any of them, nor it were not well done he sholde / but may whē he is after by other .xii. acquyte, go gette hym home and be mery that he hath had so fayre a day / as a man getteth hym to the fyre and shaketh his hatte after a shoure of rayne.

And nowe as yt often happeth, that a [Page liiii] man cometh into a shoure by his own ouersyght, though somtyme of chaūs and of aduenture: so surely though somtyme yt happe that a man be ac­cused or endyghted of malyce, or o [...] some lykelyhed whyche happed hym of chaunce and not his faute therin yet happeth yt in comparyson very selde, but that the partye by some demeanure of hym selfe gyueth occasyō that folke haue hym so suspected.

¶In this pyece my purpose is good reders as you se, to shewe that lyke wise as a man shall in the suyt ex of­ficio for heresye, not knowe his accu­ser: so may yt also happen many ty­mes, that no more he shall neyther, when he is at the comen sawe indyghted of felonye. And I shewe also therin as you se, that though yt maye tometyme happe eyther of malyce or chaūce: yet yt seldome happeth for all that, that the partye so fal­leth in trouble without some defaute of hym selfe, and that the commen [Page] generall lawe maye not for such sel­dome specyall happes be forborne. To this pyece lo this good man an­swereth me thus.

And then mayster More sayth yet farther, that vppon indytementes at sessyons, the indyters vse not to shewe the names of theym that gaue them infor­macyon. And he sayeth farther, that they may not shewe theyr names. For they may not dysclose the kynges counsayle nor theyr owne. But as I take yt that prohybycyon of openynge of the counsayle in this case is onely to be vnderstande of theyr own co [...] sayle amonge them selfe, after that they be sworne / but for openynge of the names of theym, that gaue them informacyon before they were sworn, I know no prohibicyon. And yf they wyl not shew theyr na­mes, they be not bounden to do yt / for they be not bounde to helpe the partye to his wryt of cōspyracy, but as they lyste to do in conscyence

¶Nowe good readers all this pre­tendyd defence, is nothynge ellys in effecte, but a fayre confessyon, that yt is in dede trew the thyng yt I sayd my selfe, that he whych is endyghted of felony, maye be (as for any adu [...] tage that he can take therby) as ignoraunt somtyme who be his accusers, as he shall in the suyte ex officio. And therby may happen somtyme, that he [Page lv] whyche is fautelesse shall not be all saued harmelesse / and when he hathe hadde his harme, shalbe remedylesse. And yet for all that the lawe not vn­reasonable, nor for auoydynge of myche more harme may not be for­borne. And therfore as for my pur­pose euen at that poynte myghte I haue left, and neded to go no farther. And then as you se this good man had ben quyte answerelesse.

¶But yet went I farther where me neded not, and that this good man sayth that I dyd of necessyte, wher­of for this mater I hadde of trouth no nede. And yet wolde I not nowe but I so hadde done in dede. For I haue therby the better broughte to lyghte, what lacke thys good man hath of any suffycyent answere. For these are there lo good readers ther­in my farther wordes.

Nowe yf thys pacyfyer saye, that yet here ys at the leste wyse in a tem­porall [Page] inge an open cause apperyng, whereuppon men maye se that the iudge calleth hym not, but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym / where as the spyrytuall iudge maye call a man vppon his owne pleasure yf he bere the partye dyspleasure: thys is very well sayde as for the temporall iudge. But what sayth he now for the temporall .xii. men? For ye wote well they maye do the same yf they were so dysposed / and then hadde I as leue the iudge myght do it as they. For in good faith I neuer saw ye day yet, but that I durste as well trust the trouth of one iudge as of two iuryes. But the iudges be so wyse men, that for the auoydynge of obloquye, they wyl not be put in the truste.

And I dare saye the ordynaryes be not so folyshe neyther, but that they wolde as fayne auoyde yt to yf they myghte / sauynge that very neces­syte leste all sholde fall to noughte, compelleth theym to take this waye.

¶Here you se that I meane in this [Page lvi] wordes, that though the pacyfyer wolde tell me that the temporall iud­ge hath by suche endyghtement at the leste wyse, an open cause apperynge wheruppon a man maye se that the iudge calleth hym not of hys owne mynde, but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym: I wolde them graunte hym that thys is in dede a good ease to the temporall iudge, to kepe hym oute of obloquye. And the spyrytuall iuges be not so vnwyse, but that they wold be glad of such a nother pauyce sauynge that they be bounden to take the tother waye, and suffre them self euyl peples obloquye, for auoydyng of the harme yt ellys wold folow, by the decay of Cristes catholyke faith. Whyche thynge I there proue well to, as you shall after se. This as I saye wolde I haue graunted allway thys good man. But then I wold allwaye therwythall haue tolde hym to, that yet all that tale of hys [Page] hadde nothyge touched the poynte / but that alwaye for all this tale, the man that was indyghted, yf the ma­ter were in dede vntrew, was neuer the nerer the knowledge who were his accusers, to gete any amendes therby, no more then he that is called of offyce for heresye byfore a spyry­tuall iudge. And here nowe what he sayth to this, and whyther we be by his answere for the poynt yt was mēt by me, any one ynch yet the nerer. Lo good readers this is hys proper an­swere.

And thē bycause he cā none otherwise do, but cōfesse a great dynersyte betwyxte them that be put to an­swere ex officio, and them that be putte to answere before the kynges iustyces vppon indytementes at the common lawe: for there the iudges haue suffycyent and apparant mater to put theym to answere vppon, and in the other there is none, but that the spyrytuall iudge vppon a dyspleasure may do yt ex offi­cio, yf he wyll. Therfore he goeth yet farther and sayeth, that the .xii. men maye yet do the same, and make a man to be called that is not gyltye, yf they were so dysposed. And trouth yt is, they may indyte a man, that is absent, and that is also not gyltye, and be vntrewe, yf they wyll: but yet in suche case the .xii. men be knowen that do yt, and be also compelled [Page lvii] to be vppon the inquyrye: for they maye not be vppon it, but they be therto assygned: and also the partye vppon theyre verdyte shall not be put to an­swere before theym, as yt is vpon the suyte Ex offi­cio, but before the kynges iudges, before whome the indytemēt is no atteynder to the partie: but that he maye be founde not gyltye, not wythstandynge that indytement. And though mayster More saye, that he neuer saw the daye yet, but that he dursie as well truste the treuth of one iudge as of two iuryes: I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thanke f [...]r that preyse: for surely inryes must nedely be be­leued and trusted. And therfore it is not the maner of the iudges to laye vntrouth vppon a iurye, ne yet to commende theym that do yt, but yt be proued afort them o [...] [...]ecorde after the order of the lawe.

¶ Here you se good readers yt tou­chynge the poynte that we spake of, all thys tale helpeth nothynge, but goeth all aboute a nother mater, to proue a nother dyfference betwene ye suyte of offyce and indyghtementes, as though I had sayd there were no difference betwene thē at all. But I was neuer yet so madde to be of that mynde. For thē must I say they were both one. And then were euery endytement a suyte of offyce, & euery suit of offyce an indyghtement, yf there [Page] were no dyuersytees betwene them at all.

¶And therfore yf his dyuersyte shall serue aughte for the purpose: he muste make yt appere that the suyte of offyce bycause of that dyfference, and bycause yt is not lyke indyghte­mentes in that poynte, is therfore in heresye eyther very clerely nought, or ellys that at the lest wyse yt were somwhat better, that they sholde ne­uer put any man to answere in here­sye, but eyther vppon open accusacyon or psentement had byfore. For els if he wene to wynne this poynt of me with shewynge forth a dyfference: if his differēce proue me no such thyng as I tel you, he may for the mater as wel brynge vs forth any verse dyfference at aduenture, that he lerned at grammer scole.

¶Now whē he hath layed al his dyuersyties on an hepe, & wold therup­pon cōclude, yt bycause of those diue [...] syties, ye suyte of officio were nought [Page lviii] and vnresonable: I say yt foloweth nothing: For it proueth yet no farther at the farthest, but yt the order of the comen law were better, & not yt the tother were nought. For it myght well be for al that, yt the cōmen law might be good ynough, though they yt secretly or openly come now & enforme the queste, came either secretly or openly, and lykewise enformed the court.

¶And now saw I well, that to this poynte was there none answere for this good man agayne / but to tell me yt in such thingꝭ as they now trust the questes, it were parell in stede of [...]u­ryes so myche to truste the courte, by cause the iuges myght then fayn ma­ter agaynste men, and say they were secretely enformed. To this syth I saw what truste the realme must ne­des put in ye iudges handes, so farre aboue the wheyghte of the fyrste endyghtement, that serueth for no­thynge but for an informacyon and seynge also what maner of men they [Page] be that be chosen to be iudges, so that there is nothynge of so great weyght but that yt well may be put in theyre handes: I rekened theym of suche trouth, that saue for euyll folkes ob­loquye, to them selfe warde / elles to the people there sholde come none harme, though the truste that we put in thēdytours, were in stede of them put in the iudge hym selfe. This I there sayde lo, and this I thynke in dede. For as I sayde there, I neu [...]r saw yet the day, but yt I durst as wel truste the trouthe of one iudge, as I durst truste the trouth of two iuryes. What hath this good man answered me nowe to this? To all this gere here is lo his worsyppefull answere. I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thank [...] for that prayse. For surely iuryes must nedes be be­leued and trusted. And therfore yt ys not the maner of the iudges, to lay vntrouth to a iurye / ne yet to commende them that do yt. But yt be proued afore them of recorde after the order of the lawe.

¶This answere of trouthe is not worthe a straw. For as for yt he sayth [Page lix] the iudges wyll for that prayse can me lytle thanke: that word were somwhat, yf I hadde sayde it for theyr thanke. But I sayd it in good sayth, not for theyr thanke at al, but bycause yt is very trouth, yt I neuer saw the day yet in dede, nor neuer I truste in god I shall, but that I may wel and so wyll I do in dede, [...]rust the trouth of one iudge, as well as the trouth of two iuryes. I wolde here wytte of this good man, what disprayse is this to any iury? what vntrewth is there here layed vnto them, or to any one man of them, I wyll vse one worde now this ones, whych this good man vseth often. For now wyll I saye a lytle farther, and that is this (though this man maye happe to thynke the sayenge straunge) I wyll not let to beleue the trouth of some one man, of whose trouth I make my selfe sure & doute nothyng at al, euen as wel as the trouthe of a great many at ones, [Page] though they be all suche as I beleue euery one of theym as well as I be­leue hym selfe. And I also byleue some one iuge alone, not in connynge but in trouthe, as well as I wyll be­leue both hym selfe & all his felowes to. For some one man may be suche, that if he shold tel me a tale as of his own ꝑfyt knowlege: I wold so litle doute yt to be trew, yt I could beleue yt no better, though all the town told yt with hym. Lo what a great vn­trouth I lay here to the iuryes.

¶And this I say for my selfe. And now wyll I with this good mannys leue, saye yet a lytle farther, and I wene I sha [...]l not say so alone. I suppose veryly that there be very few, but so that it myghte make a fynall ende in theyr mater, excepte happely some such as trust more in the fauour of the countrey then in the trouthe of theyr cause: they wold rather be content to put yt whole into the iudges handes, then trouble the countrey [Page lx] wyth callynge vppe of the iuryes, whose trouth yet many tymes deceyueth them, that in an euyl cause haue very great truste vnto theym.

¶And yet in all this saye not I that the commen order and longe con [...]y­tynued law of this realme, to trye the maters by iuryes, & in felony or treason neuer to ꝓcede but vpon endyghtementes, is not good / nor that the cō trarye waye were better. Mary two thynges I saye, that in treason and felonye this ordynarye lawe of endyghtemētes is many tymes fayn to be holpen forth by a nother meane, myche lyke in many thynges to the suyte ex officio / and that ys by dyly­gent polytyque serche and examynacyons bysyde, both by the kynges honorable coūsayle, & the iuges, & iustyces of peace, euery man for theyr ꝑte in euery ꝑte of the realm / & els wold there many such mischiefꝭ passe by & by indightem [...]t neuer wold be foūdē. [Page] And some great and clerely proued felonyes byfore dyuerse and ryghte worshypfull of the kinges counsayl, haue I wyste ere thys, that neuer coulde be goten to be founden by en­dyghtement in theyre countreys, for all that. How be yt suche examyna­cyons hathe caused yet many myscheuouse people to be brought to theyre punyshement / and haue put also many suche other vnthryftes in fere, & made them refrayn fro theuyng and drawe them selfe to thryfte / or elies not wytstandynge that there are yet theuys ynough, there wold be wyth­out doute many mo.

¶The tother thynge that I wyll say is this, that all these dyfferences & dyuersyties that this good man putteth here, betwene indyghtementes & the suyte ex officio, proueth nothing that the suyte ex officio is not good / but onely at the very vttermost, that the ordre not to procede wythoute an [Page lxi] open presentement were better. For [...] sayd before, though this lawe by endyghtemētꝭ be better in felony now: yet were not the tother waye nought, yf the lawe were so that the iudges myght procede and put felōs to answere without endyghtementꝭ / as in treason is vsed in thys realme by the lawe marshall vppon warre rered, as we sawe by experyence in captayne Quintyn captayn Genyn Corbet and [...]elke. And yet is that lawe not euyll, thoughe that oure owne comen law be better, and that though we truste the iuryes neuer so well, yet myght we truste the iudges as well. And this maye I saye me thynketh without any dysprayse or fawte fyndynge in the iuryes at all. For let him assygne me two iuryes of very well knowen good men / & than yf he wyll aske me what fawte fynd you syr in these men: I wyll answer hym, Mary syr no fawte at all I. I [Page] take them all for good men & trewe, and thynke they wyll not saye but treuth / nor I neuer sayd nor thought other wyse. But thā wold I assygne hym by name one of oure iudges a­gayne / and say now syr that I truste the trouth of your two iuryes well, what fawte is that that you fynde in thys iudges trouth, that maketh you to chekke me so bycause I wyll trust h [...]m no wurse than I wyll truste them. For that is ye wote well al that euer I sayde, that I wolde trust the iudge as well, and not that I wolde truste hym better. And yet yf I had sayd I wolde of the bothe trus [...]e the iudge better: I hadde not by that word neyther, dyspraysed the trouth of iuryes. For he that sayth he wyll better bysene .xxiiii. than .xii, dyspray­seth not the trouth of the petit iuries, but byleueth theym well also, saue suche as be founden false. And thus I haue shewed you that I may well [Page lxii] say the wordes that I sayd, without any fyndynge of any fawte in any iuryes. And it app [...]reth also metely well, that hym selfe can not well say the contrary without some maner of dystrust in theyr trouth. And yet syth theyr wurshyppys be so well knowe that this good mannys dystruste can not apayre it: they wyll I dare saye forgeue hym. How be it sith the iud­ges wold (as this man sayth, and as I dare also saye they wolde, be sore dyscontent wyth me, yf I dystrusted the [...]routh of the iuryes: the iuryes may now no lesse do agayne of cour­tesye, than for his wurse opinion of the iudgꝭ trouth somewhat be angry wyt [...] hym.

¶Nor herin se I none other shyfte for this good man, but for the mayn­tenaunce of hys mater to saye, that in the comen law, the law wold be good inough in felonye, though the truste were put in the iudges, to putte tray­tours [Page] and felons to answere wyth­out indyghtement / but in heresye it coulde not be good before an ordyna­rye / and wolde saye for hys cause a dyuersyte bytwene the tone iudge & the tother, and saye that oure iudges be good men and worshypful, & euer [...] ben and euer shall / and that the ordynaryes be, and euer haue bene, & shalbe, very false & nought. Other shyfte hath this man none that I se than euyn to saye thus. And veryly his boke of diuisyon, saue that it saith nothynge to the prayse of temporall iudges that I now remember: yet to the dysprayse of the spyrytuall, for those algates that be now, saith euyn in effecte as mych, ye and rather yet wurse to, saue that ye colour of some say saueth hym from sayenge it hym selfe.

¶But now yf he defend hym selfe with that fasshyon agayne: what the iuryes wyll say that can I not tell / [Page lxiii] for the panellys be not yet called. But as for oure iudges, I knowe theyr wysedoms and theyr wurshyppys such, that I am very sure in his so sayenge and his so lyenge vppon the spyrituall iudges, they wolde can hym no thanke at all.

¶And veryly that the spyrytual or­dinaryes be not at these dayes lykely to be such, ye temporall iudges beyng so good as they be: there is amonge many other one lykelyhed this, that he hath chosen the tone that hath cho­sen the tother, the kynges gracyouse hyghnesse hym selfe / whiche hauyng on both sydes very good to chose of, hath I dare say ben as cyrcumspecte in chosynge of thordynaryes, as of ye iudges. And yet leste in theyr absence the offycers of theyr owne choyse might happe to misseordre ye maters: his grace kepeth not two bysshoppes of all the realm out of theyr diocises, nor to say the trouth not so myche as [Page] one. For he whose attendaunce hys grace vseth moste, is far the moste parte of the yere in hys owne dyocise euery daye.

¶And therfore as I sayd before, all these verse dyfferences, and all these dyuersytees, whiche thys good man sayeth bytwen the suit ex [...]fficio in heresye, & the not procedynge with out indyghtem [...]tes vpon treason or felony, proueth at the very fertheste not that the suit ex off [...]cio is noughte, but that not to procede but vpon a presentemēt w [...]re the better away. And than I saye that it is a pore tale and a colde, yf a man wolde come forth & labour vs to breke euery olde lawe longe vsed in this realme, whyche he could not proue but that it were good inough / but yet wolde nedes haue it chaūged, bycause that if it were now to make, hym selfe coulde he sayth make it better.

¶But now wyll I come a lytell [Page lxiiii] nerer vnto this good man, wyth the [...]o [...]he rpoynte yt I towched before / yt is to wytte that it is not in thys ma­t [...]r inough for this good mā, to proue [...] that not to procede wythout open o [...]sacion or presentement is the bet [...]er waye, bothe vppon treason and [...]onye, but yf he proue vs ferther, i [...] a [...] the same waye were also better in heresye

¶But thanne haue I shewed by­fore in myne apologye, that in here­sye that waye wyll not serue. And that haue I there proued by the playneste profe that in suche maner thyn­ges any man can make, that is to wytte by comon open experyence / wherunto thys good man of polycy wolde geue none eare, but in hys an­swere he hath left it quyte out.

¶And therein he fareth lo lyke a geste, that maketh hys rekenynge hym self without his hoste / which is [Page] therfore after fayne to reken agayn / as I shall nowe brynge in here one peny more into this good mannes re­kenynge, whyche I perceyue well hym selfe wold very fayne forgete. Lo thus wrote I ferther good rea­ders to wchynge thys poynte in that selfe same chapiter of myne apology folio. 226.

But yet wyll peraduenture thys pa­cyfyer saye, that sometyme in some very specyall case, he coulde be contēt that the spyrytuall iudge shold vpon hys [...] dyscrecyon call one for suspycyō of heresye ex officio / but he wolde not haue men comenly called, but eyther by accusacyō or presentemēt in theyr senys or endyghtemētes at the comō lawe. I had as lyefe for any thynge that I se, that thys pacyfyer sholde say thus: By thys way that they be called I wolde not haue them called / but I wolde haue them called after suche an order as they myght be sure that than sholde they neuer be called. [Page lxv] For as for accuse folke openly for he­resye, euery man hath experyence inough, that ye shall seldome fynde any man that wyll / but yf the iudge shold set an officer of the court therto wythout any perell of expensys / and than were thys way and that way all of one effecte. And as for presentemē ­tes and endyghtemētes, what effecte wolde come of them concernynge he­resye, ye se the profe I trowe metely well all redy.

For thys is a thyng well knowen vnto euery man, that in euery sene, eue­ry sessyon of peace, euery sessyon of gaole delyuery, euery lete thorough the realme, the fyrste thynge that the iury haue gyuen them in charge is heresye. And for all thys, thorow the whole realme how many presentemē tes be there made in the whole yere? I wene in some seuen yere not one. And I suppose no man dowteth, but that in the meane time some there be. I wyll not be curiouse about the ser­chyng out of ye cause, why it is eyther [Page] neuer or so very selde presented, not fyue in fyftene yere. But thys I saye that syth some wyl not, some can not, and none doth / yf he sholde put away the processe ex officio, the thyng shold be lefte vndone / and than shold soone after with heretykes encreaced and multyplied, the fayth be vndone / and after that thorough the stroke of god reuengyng theyr malyce and our ne­glygence, sholde by sedycyon, & trou­ble, and derth, & deth, in thys realme many men bothe good and badde be vndone. And therfore for conclusion of this pyece, my pore aduyce & coun­sayle shalbe, that for heresye, and spe­cyally now thys tyme, men shall suf­fer the pro [...]esses ex officio stande / and for as many other synnys also as are onely reformable by the spyrytuall law, excepte there be any such synnys of theym as ye thynke were good to growe.

¶What hath this good man good readers sayd vnto this pyece? what shall we good reders say now to this [Page lxvi] good man? yt in this goodly answere of his, whiche he wolde were taken for so stronge, vnto this piece vppon whiche gr [...]at part of the mater han­geth, sayth not so mych as mum / but letteth it s [...]ippe euyn by, as though he were one yt had as for this point ben born defe & therby dumme.

¶And now concernynge this poynt, I wyll yet saye a lytle ferther, that in places mo than one, good euidence haue ben geuen vnto questꝭ of playn & open heresye, whych yet wolde not fynde it / yt wold vpon mych lesse euydēce, haue shortely presented felony.

¶And one of these maters wyth the prest ye preched it whā I was chaun­cellour, was brought vnto me by ryghte wurshupfull folke, yt before me aduowed it in his face. And yet coulde not all they cause the quest to present it, but some folke bygā to fal to fauour hym / & had he not ben takē by good wurshypfull tēporall men, many wold haue flocked after hym, [Page] & haue folowed hym about for plea­sure of hys new fasshyon prechynge. And yet for all that flockyng, though they had made .ii. or .iii. hūdred as they sholde hahpely within a whyle yf a few good men had not letted it: they had ben yet but an handfull to theyr good catholyke neyghbours / and yet by such flockynge togyther, and fo­lowynge on a plumpe, they sholde haue semed in folkes eyen farre the more parte / and at length peraduen­ture yf they went on & were not let­ted, they myght grow to it in dede.

¶ That preste I delyuered vnto his ordynary, and that with good and playne profe of his heresye / whyche was in dede soone after that abiured But for this I tell it you, that ye iury wolde not fynde it for all the good folke that gaue them open euydence. And that this is not in one case, nor a thynge that happeth seld, as I sayd in myne apology, playne experyence [Page lxvii] prou [...]th. wherby you maye se, that in heresy yf the iudge sholde not ex of­ficio procede, tyll the mater were presented by ye iuryes: heretikes myght be bolde to procede on a pace and so they wold I warraunt you, and multyply full faste.

¶And thus you se good readers, yt cōcernyng this pyece, this good man hath in euery point a gr [...]t ouerthrow.

¶And therfore now the last clause of this .xv. chapyter of his, is clerely wrested awry. For as though he had all proued, wh [...]re all is dysproued: he fynysheth hys chapyter thus.

And thus it appereth, that mays [...]er More can ney­ther proue the suyte Ex. officio to be lyke to the ar­restyn [...]e of men for suspycyon of felonye, for good a­berynge, to puttynge of men to answere vpon indy­temētes, ne yet to them that may be accused by .xii. men, and knowe not of it, and tha [...] for the causes before remembred. Wherfore it semeth, that though it were clerely putte awaye, the stretes shulde not swarme full of heretykes neuer a whyt.

¶This good man sayth here I can not proue any of al these thyngeꝭ like. But euery man may wel se, that lyst [Page] to loke backe and rede it, that there is not any one piece of all these that he speketh of, but I haue very playne­ly proued it very lyke, for ye purpose & entent that I resemble it for. And this shall euery man clerely se, that wyll aduise pyece by pyece.

¶And therfore whyle vpon dyffe­rences & dyuersytees that he putteth bytwen them, such as let them not to be lyke in the thyng that I lyken thē for, he bosteth in conclusyon yt I can not proue them lyke: I shall shewe you what thyng now this bost of his is lyke.

¶If it had come in this good mānes hed, to diuise a law and wryte a boke therfore, to kyll vp all the band dog­ges thorow out all ye realm [...] (wherin his tyme as vnwysely as it were be­stow [...]d, had not yet ben so ill spent as it hath ben in this) and than wold lay for the cause, ye bandogges do spende vitayle, & wyll somtyme byte folke [Page lxviii] to: yf I wolde than wryte agayns [...]e his wyse boke, and say that he myght by that reason kyll vp hounde [...] and grayhoūdes & all, for they must eate to, and wyll somtyme byte chyldren to / but lykewyse yet as they maye not yet for all that be forborne, bothe for the pleasure that they do, and also for that they helpe to take vs some suche bestes of venory as men eate, and hunte and kyll also suche other bestes and vermyn, as ellys wolde destroye mych vytayle / so the band­dogges may not be forborne neither, for they both defende husband men­nes howses fro theues, & helpe folke home with theyr bestes to somtyme, such as wold not ellys come home: now myghte this good man by this reason yt he vseth here, write agayne & defend his polytike deuice agaynst bandoggꝭ / & therin answer me thus. Fyrst yt for defence of folkes houses there shal nede no bandogges at all / [Page] for men may make theyr seruauntes watche, or make fast all theyr dorys / and whan the [...]es wolde breke in, de­fende theyr howses them selfe. And as for suche bestes as wold not come home, yf they be not ouer heuy they may bere them home / and those that be to heuy to be borne home, taye ro­pes to there taylys and drawe theym home. And than myght he saye yet a lytell ferther / and that is this, that he merueiled mych yt I could for shame and fere of myne own conscyence re­semble & lyken together, gentle hoū ­des or goodly greyhoūdes, to such il fauored mast [...]ffes. And thā to proue them very farre vnlyke put his dyf­ferencꝭ & his dyuersitees, and saye a mastyff [...] hath you wote well a great iolte hed, & a great mosel & a thycke boystuouse body / where as a grey­hoūd hath a ꝓperhed, with a goodly smal long snowt, & fayre long slēder sydꝭ / & the hoūdꝭ yet mych lesse lyke

[Page lxix]¶And theruppon myght he there cō clude (as he nowe concludeth here) and saye thus.

¶And thus it appereth that maister More can neyther proue ye mastyfes to be lyke to ye greyhoūdes, nor to the tother gentle houndes neyther, and that for the causes before remēbred. wherfore yt semeth that though all bandogges and mastiffes were clerely putte awaye: yet mennys houses sholde be defended well inough, and theyre bestes broughte home well ynough to, so they sholde so.

¶Now yf he ryally tryumphed vppō this, and thought he had auoyded me well: I could no far [...]her go ther­in in good fayth, but let him take that glorye to hym. And surely wyth any wyse man that readeth ouer here in this chapyter, both hys wordes and myne, and one after a nother consydereth wherfore I resemble theym together: shall fynde I dare boldely [Page] warraunt, that wyth his dyfferencꝭ and hys dyuersytees, he wynneth lyke worshyppe in thys.

¶But now to turne agayn as I ꝓmysed to the fyrste poynte, that ys to wyt his deuise of open accusers: cō syder well this good chrysten rea­der, that where as this good man in his boke of diuysyon, where he wold haue the suit ex officio left of: he thē reserued vs yet both open accusacy­ons and presentementes, to put heretyques to answere vpon. But nowe in this .xv. chapiter of his, in his boke of Salem & Bizance, for fauour to­warde the catholyque fayth, he dyuyseth no more agaynst heretyques but open accusers alone / and sayeth that open accusers shall suffyciētly serue the mater. And vnto yt here yt I say, and that euery man seeth, that no mā wyll in heresy make hym self a ꝑtye by way of opē accusyng: therto saith thys good man nothynge.

[Page lxx]¶He seeth perdy very well, that in many thynges forboden by sondry statutes for the comen weale, as a­gaynste the great excesse of apparell and some such other thynges: ye law dothe inuyte and hyre euery man to thaccusynge of the brekers of ye same by geuynge theym the tone halfe of the forfaytoure. And yet for all that as longe & as many lawes, & as sore as haue ben made agaynste suche ex­cesse of apparayle, and as myche as some men myght haue wonne by the suyt: yet howe fewe folke haue ben founden that haue taken those accyōs and therby accused those offenders, the kynges courtes can declare, and the lytle amendement may shew.

¶Ryottes be open thynges and en­quyrable, with paynes also set vpō ye concelours, yet many great ryottes go by vnfounde & ye cōcelours neuer spokē of / & a statut was there fayn to be made, yt it myght be pursued, & pu­nished by the kingꝭ coūsayle without [Page] presentement, and that euen by suyte in maner ex officio to. For though the partyes that made the ryot, and the partye vppon whome yt was made, were so well agreed agayne, that neyther nother wolde by theyre wylles haue the mater moued or any more spoken of it: yet may the kyngꝭ counsayle vpon secrete informacion, cause the kynges atturney to make a byll of the ryot, and put the partyes to answere, and sende for what wyt­nesses they wyll.

¶Nowe thys man wyll not be so madde I trowe to lay me for a defference, that in the suyte ex officio there is none accuser, and that here the kynges atturney is. For as I haue sayde byfore yf the spyrytuall courte sholde assygne in lyke wyse an offy­cer of theyre owne wythoute eyther parell or coste; what wolde yt auayle the partye?

¶If this good man had therfore dyuised [Page lxxi] rewardes for accusers, & great paynes of forfaytours for them that wolde conceyle and hyde: yet wolde not all that haue holpen well the mater in heresyes. And weneth he thē yt his bare diuise of opē accusers alone, neyther compelled nor hyr [...]d, wyll helpe yt? Nay not and take endyte­mentes and presentementes to them, wyth paynes set vppon the conceylours to.

¶And this hathe all chrys [...]endome good chrysten reders perceyued / and therfore in euery good chrysten coun­trey, do they vse the same suyt of of­fyce (whyche vppon a lyghte reason this man calleth vnreasonable) and haue vsed many longe yeres. Thys lawe also whych this good man thus impugneth vppon his owne vnreasonable reason, was thoughte a lawe ryght reasonable as I tolde you in a generall counsayle at Rome there holden by pope Innocent the thyrde [Page] and many great wyse & well lerned vertuous men there at. There were thembassyatours of all the realmes and countreys chrystened / & amonge tother thembassiatours of England. There were thēbassiatours of both the emperours, yt is to wyt Almayn & Grece. There were also ye .iiii. gret pa [...]riarches / yt is to wyt ye patriarche of Antiochia, & the patriarche of Alexandria by theyr deputies / & the patriarche of Cōstantinople, & the patri­arche of Hierusalē ī theyr own proꝑ ꝑsons. In this great ful & whole coū sayle of crystendome, was this lawe agreed & approued. And from ye fyrst makyng al cristen coūtreys receiued yt / & haue by the contynuall v [...]e euer syns alowed it. And this realm hath found it so necessary, yt by statutes yt hath strengthed it. And al trew cristē countreis to this day styll obserue it / nor no coūtrey hath there any where left & forsaken it, except such places [Page lxxii] onely as haue lefte and forsaken the fayth of Chryst / wyth all whose en­samples I truste thys realme is to faythfull to folowe, vpon such good reason as this good man here bryn­geth / wherof the very whole summe when it is gathered to gether, a moū teth to no more, but that yt may some tyme happen, that an innocent maye take harme therby / a reason that ones receiued, may suffre no law to stand. For what lawe can he geue so made in al this world, wherby none innocēt can possibly take hurt? But here you se playnely proued agaynst this good man, that by the chaungynge, there wolde surely folowe a nother maner of perell, the decay of the catholyque fayth by thencoragyng of heretikes / whiche wold be well content that we made lawes to burne theym twyse when they be proued heretykes, so yt the good counsayle of this good man be folowed, that the suyte ex officio maye be chaunged into suche open [Page] accusers, as in seuen yere shall neuer one come forth, nor one heretyque of lykelyhed ones be put to answere / with a nother good coūsayle of thys good mannys also dyuysed for theyr farther saufegard agaynst arrestyng of them, wherof we be to speke af­terwarde in a nother chapyter. Say this good man what he wyll, yf we breke thys lawe so longe approued thorowe crystendome, and take hys deuyse in the stede: his worde wyll neu [...]r so stay the thynge, but that after his wayes ones taken, and by his newe euyll counsayle the good olde lawes broken, men sholde shortely se wythout any doute great encrease of heretykes / whych, where as they were wonte but to crepe to gether in corners, and secretely scoulke to gether in lurkes lauys, shall sone wax bolde and put oute theyr hornes and flocke and swarm to gether so thycke in thopen s [...]retes, yt such myschyefe [Page lxxiii] wolde fynally folowe theron, as wo wyll euery good man be that sholde lyue to se yt. And yet wolde god of his goodnes turne at length the chief harme vppon theyre heddes. But better folke sholde fyrst fele so mych therof, that it were better for bothe, that by these good lawes well kepte whyche thys good man wolde breke, these heretyques be well repressed, and kepte vnder by tymes.

The .xvi. chapy [...]er.

HIs .xvi. chapy­ter begynn [...]th in ye .liiii. lefe, wherin he fyrste recyteth agayne hys own wordes writen in his boke of diuisyon wherin he disputed agaynst the lawe in the chapyter Accusatus, perag. Licet, wherby yt is ordyned yt though one beynge accused & sworne [Page] confesse nothyng, and yet afterward he confesseth bothe of hym selfe and other, such thynges as it may wel appere, that yf he were not forsworen in the secunde, he was forsworen in the fyrste, and yet that lawe there admytteth hym for a witnesse in ye same court and in that mater of heresye, yf there appere manifeste tokēs that he doth it not of lightnesse of mynde, nor of hatered, nor for other corrupcyon / whych he sayth is therfore a daunge­rouse law, and more lyke to cause vntrew and vnlawfull men to cōdemne innocētes, then to cōdēpne offenders.

¶And you shall vnderstand good reders, yt in his boke of diuisyon, he not onely dyd impugne the lawe that he speketh of here / but also a nother chapyter In fidei fauorem, bycause that therby suche as are accursed, & suche as are partyes to the same offence, shalbe wytnesse in heresye.

¶This reason of his good reader, all be yt that me then thought and yet [Page lxxiiii] thynke so vnresonable, that I r [...]ke­ned yt lytle worth the answeryng, as a reason reproued by ye comen law & by the course & vsage of all realmes chrystened, and in other crymes by­syde heresye playnesy reproued, and y cōtrary wel vsed in this realm here also: yet in ye .xli. chapiter of myn apo logi [...] fo. cc.xxviii in this maner wyse I answered hym.

This pyece concernynge the testymonye of knowen euyll persons to be receyued and taken in heresye / I haue somewhat touched in the thyrde cha­pyter of the thyrde boke of my dya­loge / where syth they maye reade yt that wyll, I wyll make here no longe tale agayne therof. But well he wo­teth that heresye, wherby a Chrysten man becometh a false traitour to god is in all lawes spyrytuall and tempo­rall bothe, accōpted as great a cryme as is the treason commytted agaynst any worldely man. And then why sholde we fynde so great a faute, that suche wytnesse sholde be recey­ued [Page] in a cause of heresye, as are receyued not onely in a cause of treason, but of murder also, and of other more syngle felonye / not onely in fauour of the prynce, and detestacyon of such odyouse crymes, but also for the ne­cessyte whyche the nature of the ma­ter wurketh in y profe. But syth euyl folke vse not to make good folke of counsayle in doynge of theyre euyll dedes / those that are done, shold passe vnpunyshed, and mo lyke be commytted a freshe, but yf they were recey­ued for recordes to theyre condemp­nynge, that were of theyre counsayle and perteners to the doynge. whyche kynde of folke wyll not lette to swere twyse nay, before they confesse ones ye / and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde, then theyre twyse naye vppon a solempne othe / and yet confesse they not so symplye, but that it is commenly holpen wyth some suche cyrcumstaunces as make the mater more clere.

[Page lxxv]¶Nowe as to those thyngꝭ that I wrote in my dialoge cōcernyng great crymynouse wytnesses to be taken in great criminall causes, he answereth wyth no worde at all. How be yt to say the trouth he the lesse neded. For he geueth ouer here, al that faute that he founde in the chapyter In fidei fauorem, as a thynge [...] wherin hym self seeth now that he was ouersene than and therfore he setteth that here passe by, as though he hadde neuer spoken therof, and stycketh onely vppon yt one case of hym yt is ones forsworen.

¶But now let vs se what he sayth here cōcernynge this selfe same case. Fyrst he saith yt ye lawes, though they must deuyse suche waysas euyll persons maye be punyshed: yet the ma­kers of the lawes must (as mych as in them is) prouyde that innocentes shalbe saued harmelesse. This is very trew as myche as in them is / the tother poynt beynge prouyded for to, [Page] that offendours maye be punyshed. But then say I yt yt is not in all the wittes of the world, for punyshemēt of myscheuouse wreches, to dyuyse a sawe in suche wyse, that men maye be sure that none innocent can take harme therby. And then yf he graunt me this (whyche whyther he graunt or no, yet very trew yt is) then say I that his onely reason agaynst the suit ex officio, and agaynst this lawe to, that is to wytte that innocentes maye take harme therby, if such a reason yt yf it were folowed ī euery law wher by mysseguyded folke are punyssed, there shold no law stand for theyr punyshenēt at al, but lest it myght misse happe that some innocent myght take harme, we sholde lette all mysche­uouse folke alone, & therby suffre many mo good innocēt men take harme.

¶But then goeth this good mā ferther & sayth yt the punishement of an offender must be by a dew & a reaso­nable [Page lxxvi] order. And y is very trew also / & therfore we shal agre well in that. But than goth he ferther and sayth, I cā not se what dew or resonable order of tryal it is that he y vpō his oth hath fyrst clered hym self & h [...]s neyghbour of heresyes, sholbe after contrarye to his fyrste othe, be receyued agayne as a wytnesse, to condemne hym that he cler [...]d byfore, and that in the same courte, and in the same mater.

¶Though this good man can not se yt: other men can se yt / and haue sene it, & dayly do se it to wel ynough. I haue sene suche thynges as thys is my selfe proued, I can not tell howe often, that in the excuse of a thefe some haue taken an othe, that the felon was with hym in hys owne house at suche tyme as the felonye sholde be done in a nother place. And a man wolde haue wente he hadde ben credyble and sayd trouth. And yet afterwarde hathe hym selfe confessed that the feson and hym selfe also were at the robberye bothe twayne / and hys bare worde then more trewe, then byfore was hys solempne othe. [Page] And euery man that hathe medeled myche wyth suche examynacyons, hath a sure experyence, that this ys a commen fashyon of murderers and theuys and such as are theuys receyuours / of whome at the fyrste face some seme honest men, & are so some tyme reputed, and come forth for de­claracyon of them that are suspected and in trouble, and depose for them / and yet after vppon some other occasyon in examynynge of the mater, begynne to be suspected theym selfe, and afterwarde confesse yt to, bothe of them selfe and theym whom they came to clere by theyr periury before. And I am very sure there be not a fewe that haue herd suche euydence, geuen in causes of felony dyuerse tymes to the iurye.

¶But hereuppon bycause I spake in myne apologye of suche witnesses in felonye: thys good man maketh here ad [...]ute / what maner wytnesses [Page lxxvii] I mene / whyther I mene ye .xii. men that are the iury, or other wytnessys that are brought into the court for to enforme thē. And thā fyrst if I mene the .xii. men, than he answereth me certayn thynges, to shew that he can skyll of the law. But veryly as for me, I shal put hym out of that dowt, that I ment not them. For I neuer toke the .xii. men for wytnessys in my lyfe. For why shold I call them wit­nesses, whose verdycte the iudge ta­keth for a sure sentence concernynge the facte, without any examynacyon of the cyrcumstaunces, wherby they know or be ledde to byleue theyr verdicte to be trew?

¶And also wherfore shold I mene to call them wytnesses, whome I se desyre wytnesses at the barre to en­forme them in the mater, as wytnes­sys enforme a iudge? He myghte therfore haue spared hys labour in ye pyece well inough. For I neyther [Page] ment tht iurye, nor neuer toke theym for wytnesse.

¶If he wyll aske me what they be than: I saye they be the iury. And yf he wyll wyt ferthermore what persō they represent of those yt are v̄suall in other courtes wherin there be no iuryes vsed: than can I metely wel tell hym to yf the tale were as neces­sary as it wolde be longe.

¶But than cometh he to the tother parte and sayth, And yf mayster More by that terme, witnesse, mene suche wytnesse, as be somtyme brought into the kynges courtes, to geue euydencys to an [...]nque [...]t, than to that wytnesse no suche wytnesse, as the wytnesse bene in the spyrytuall courte, that shall acquy [...]e or condempne the partyes: for of those wytnesse so brought into the kynges court to geue euydence to an [...]nqueste at the comon lawe, no mencyon shall be made in the recordes, ne the iury be not bound alway to folow tho wytnesse. For yf the iury of theyr owne knowlege or otherwyse know the trouth agayns [...]e the sayenge of suche wytnesse, they be bou [...]den to fynde accordynge to the trouth, and let tho wytnes go. And yet yf it ha [...]ned, that such collaterall wyt­nes fyrst testyfyed vpon theyr othe, that the partye were not gylty: and after it were informed the iud­ges, that they reuoked theyr fyrst sayeng, and wold saye that the partye were gylty: I can not thynke, [Page lxxviii] that the iudges wolde any more calle them to here theyr sayenge therin. And though they wolde, yet as I sayd before, it were farre vnlyke to thys case. For theyr sayenge there, is but as an euydence, whi­che the iury sholde not be bounde to byleue, but as y truth is. I can not se therfore, how mayster More can proue his sayenge, that suche wytnesses, that is to say, suche as be periured in [...]he same court, shulde be afterward receyued as wytnes in any of the kyn­ges courtes.

¶Now good readers euer more remember this, that it is not inough for hym that wyl auoyde a resemblaūce bytwen two thynges, it is not inough I saye for hym to proue that in some poyntes those two thynges are vn­lyke / (for so muste euery two thyn­ges nedes be, for ellys were they not two but one) but he muste proue that they be vnlyke in the self same point wherin, and to the self same purpose wherfore, they were so resembled to gether.

¶And now I say that in that poynt for that purpose for whyche I re­semble them, I say that they be lyke. I dyd not say that they were lyke in the maner of the examynacyon, and [Page] puttynge of theyr names and theyr deposycyons in the recorde, in whych thynges this man sayth & I confesse that they be vnlyke / but I sayde that they were lyke in this point, that lyke as he that hath bene sworne and cle­red one as farre forth as in hym was of heresy, may yet be receyued swo [...]ē agayn & herd, and by his new cōtrary deposycyon may hurt the same party whom he dyd clere, before the same spyrytuall iudge, whyche lawfully may geue credence vnto hym vppon certayne cyrcūstaunces by his wyse­dome well wayed / so maye in lyke wyse he that hath ben sworn, and by his othe cl [...]red a man as myche as in hym was of felony, be yet receyued and sworne agayne and herd, and by hys new contrary deposycyon maye hurte the same partye whom he dyd before clere in a temporall court, be­fore the selfe same iudges / by the reason that the iury maye lawfully by­leue hym in the seconde othe, vppon [Page lxxix] certayne consyderacyons by theyr wysedoms wysely wayed, notwith­standyng his formar othe in the same court to the contrary.

¶And all be it that here before I thought vppon no ferther than vpon such wytnesses taken before the kyn­ges counsayle, or iustyces of ye peace men of wurshyppe in the cuntrey, & afterwarde those deposycyous with such contrary ohtes and all the cyrcū staunces therwith geuen in euydence to the iury at the barre, in the face of the kynges ordinary court, syttynge vppon the deliueraunce of the pry­soner: yet syth this good man dissy­muleth that poynt, and draweth me forth before the iudges, I am well content to wayte vpon hym thyther. And I nothynge dowt but that euyn there he shold, the case myght so fal, fynde it trewe that I tell hym.

¶That is not so sayth this good man. For yf it happened that such collaterall [Page] wytnesses, fyrste testyfyed vpon theyr othe that the party were not gilty / and after it were enformed the iudges that they reuoked theyr fyrst sayenge, and wolde say that the party were gylty: I can not thynke that the iudges wolde any more call them to here theyr sayenge therin.

¶Here you se good reders that he proueth thys poynt by none other thynge, than onely by his owne thyn­kyng. Now albe it yt against his thin­kynge that they wolde not, it were inough for me to saye that I thynke they wolde: yet wyll I not leue it so bare, but I wyll shew some cause wherfore in some case they sholde / & I wyll also put you some such case, whiche if the case happed I nothyng dowt but they wolde.

¶Fyrst the cause wherfore a person ones periured is repelled frō beryng wytnesse agayn, is bycause the lawe presumeth that he setteth not so mych by an othe, but that his oth notwith­stādyng [Page lxxx] he were likely inough to lye.

¶Now syth this presumpcyō is the generall let, and therfore the reason of the generall law: yf the case hap­pen that this presūpcyō be more than coūtrepaysed with a cō [...]r [...]ry presūp­cyon vpon the tother s [...]de, there is yt cōtrary presūpcyō a reason sufficyēt, to make in yt case a cōtrary law, or a law that shalbe for that case an excepcyon out of that generall rule.

¶ Now syr as he yt on his oth cl [...]reth hym self & his felow to, eyther in he­resye or in felonye, doth after cōfesse & swere also the cōtrary: yf we wold not byleue him in ye secūd oth, bicause we fynde hym therby periured in the fyrst / than in that we iudge hym in ye fyrst to haue sworen false, it implieth that euyn therby we iudge hym in the secunde to say trewe.

¶If he wyll refuse his secund oth, and not thynke hym worthy to be by­leued, bycause that he sware the con­trary [Page] byfore, & therby presume hym a false shrewe whan he sholde by the secunde othe proue hym selfe ones periured, and than we could not tell in whyther othe of the twayne: here I say the fyrste presumpcion is ouer borne wyth the secunde. For it is an other presumpcyon that no man wyl caste awaye his soule for nought. And yet a greater presumpsyon that no man wyll cast awaye his soule, to do hurt eyther to his owne body or to his frendes.

¶Now loke me than vp this man­nes two othes, his fyrst othe and his secund. And though there be a comon presumpcyon therin also, wherupon the credence of all othes resteth, that is to wyt that a man reputed good & honest, wyl not for his frendes body nor for his owne neyther, caste hys soule awaye by periury: yet whan hym selfe after sheweth vppon hys seconde othe, that he was periured in [Page lxxxi] the fyrste, the presumpcyon of hys trouth in his fyrst oth, is taken away by the secunde.

¶Now the secund if it be to thaccu­synge of hym selfe & his frende both, whome his fyrste othe excused, hath these other two presumpcyons for to bere agaynst the fyrst presumpcyon generall of his vntrouth for his per­iury. The tone, that though it be presumed in the law, yt he wolde be false and forsworen for somwhat: yet is it presumed that he wyll not be for­sworen for ryght nought. And yet as I sayed it is more strongely presu­med that he wyll not be forsworen to the hurt of hym selfe and hys frend. And therfore hath hys secunde othe inough to bere it agaynste the fyrste, syth in the fyrste he sware for his frendes aduauntage and his owne, for whiche (syth he nowe appereth false in the tone othe or the tother) he was than lykely to be forsworen. [Page] And in the secunde yf he were for­sworen, it were to theyr both harme. And therfore is that othe presumed to be trewe, though the man hym self be presumed false.

¶This is I trowe to no man any dowt, but [...] that though a man had ben openly periured thryes: yet yf the worlde myght (as it may not) be sure that in another mater he wold for all that swere trewe, the worlde wolde receyue his othe. Now for as myche as of no mannys oth any man can be so sure, but that he maye be by possy­bylyte deceyued: the law goth as far forth as it can, and taketh theyr othes for a profe, whych are in that case by presumpcyon lykely to swere trewe. And syth that he therfore whom the respecte of his frendes saufgarde & hys owne, gaue occasyon to be for­sworen in the fyrst, in the secund swe­reth contrary wyse to theyr bothe pa­rell & harme: therfore in y case reason [Page lxxxii] bereth ye law, yt in such heyghnous crimes his secūd oth shold be receyued.

¶Here haue I shewed you a rea­son whych semeth me sufficient, that bothe in heresye and felony, the iud­ges sholde be content not withstan­dyng the fyrste othe, in some case to suffer hym swere the contrary.

¶But now for the tēporal courtes, let vs put some case for a sample, to se whyther ye iudges wolde yf ye case happed so, here ye witnes again or not

¶I wyl not put the case in treason, wherin th [...]re wolde I wene be no dowte / but that yf after his euydence gyuen vppon his othe in clerynge there the prysoner, he happed euyn sodaynly there at the barre to repent hym selfe, & say that he was hyred to be forsworen, & that he was forswo­ren in dede, & than wolde tell another tale far cōtrary to ye fyrst, ere euer he went fro the barre: wold his tale not be herd trow you? yes and (the iury [Page] so desyrynge as peraduenture they wold the iudges wolde swere hym to I suppose / and very good reason wolde bere it that they sholde.

¶But as I say let treason go, and come but euyn vnto felonye. If two or thre wytnessys wold at the barre excuse vppon theyr othes some one man of felony / and afterward whan they were stepped fro the barre hap­ped to be herde rowne and reioyce to gether, that they had geuyn good euidence for acquytayle of theyr felow, with whom them selfe had ben at the same robbery: if they were sodaynly brought agayn to the iudges, the iury not yet departed fro the barre / and beynge seuerally questyoned in that sodayne abashement, seynge yt god had so vttred theyr falshed, bygan to haue remorce and came forth wyth ye trouth, and agreed in the cyrcumstaū ces and told all one tale, confessynge both the prysoner & them selfe gylty, [Page lxxxiii] and wold be contēt to swere that this tale were trew con [...]rary to the othe yt they sware there byfore: wolde not the iudges trowe you geue them the herynge? yes yes I dowte not, and the iury to.

¶And thus you se clerely good rea­ders, yt in this poynt if this man had wysely wrought, he sholde haue ge­uen it ouer.

¶And now albe it yt here I myght ende this chapyter, and haue no nede at all to go any ferther: yet to the ferther openyng, how lytell holde there is in the causes that he layeth of dys­symilitude & vnlykenes, bytwene the wytnessys brought into a spirituall court, & the wytnesses brought in to ye temporal for informacyō of the iury / I meruayle mych yf hym self know not that lyke as the iury may yf they se cause why, way the wytnesses at lyght, and quyte the prysoner for all the wytnesses wordes, so may the or­dynary [Page] do to. For in his estymacyon the power lyeth, to way and consider the qualytees of the wytnesses / and all suche other cyrcūstaūces as may mynysshe or encreace theyr credence.

¶Ye and vnto the tother syde, the wytnessys are not in the temporall courtes wayed and estemed so lyght, but that the iury shall yf they byleue them not, be somtyme dreuyn to yeld a good rekenynge why. For though the wordes of the wytnestes be not entred in the recorde, yet in attaynt they shall agayne be geuen in euy­dence agaynst the petyt iury, and te­styfye by the court and by the othes of them yt before herde them depose.

¶And thanne yf it appere vnto the graund iury in theyr conscyence, that the petyt iury wylfully of some cor­rupte mynde regarded not the wyt­nessys, and therfore in the geuyng of theyr verdycte passed agaynste theyr owne conscyence: euery man well [Page lxxxiiii] woteth that they shalbe attaynted.

¶And necessyte hath also dreuen the kingꝭ grace & his coūsayle for ye sure punyshmēt of felons, to prouide yt yf the iury lykewyse regard the wytnessys so sleyghtly, yt the iudges thynke they quyte the felon agaynste theyr own cōscyence: they bynde thē some­tyme to appere before the kyngꝭ coū ­sayle. And there haue there dyuerse iuryes bene proued so to haue mysse­vsed them self therin, that they haue ben punysshed therfore.

¶Now wyll I good readers come vnto that piece, which (as a thyng all redy cōfuted & of it self vnworthy to be touched) I wold haue passed ouer & not ones vowchsafed to write one word therin, sauyng yt I se him to ha­ue takē such labour therabout, yt he semeth to wene yt he hath defended it well / whiche whither he haue well defended or not, your selfe shal good readers iudge.

[Page]These were his wordes in his boke of diuision.

Thys is a daungerous law, and more lyke to caus [...] vntrew and vnlawful men to condempne innocente [...] then to condempne offenders. And it helpeth lytell, that yf there be tokens, that it is not done of hatered nor for corrupcyon of money: that it shold be taken: for somtyme a wolfe may shew hym selfe in the ap­parell of a lambe. And yf the iudge be par [...]yall, such tokens maye be sone [...] accepted then trewly shewed.

¶To thys pyece these were my wordes in myne apology folio. 229.

Syth euyll folke vse not to make good folke of theyr counsayle in do­ynge of theyr euyll dedes / those that are done, sholde passe vnpunyshed, & mo lyke be commytted a fresshe, but yf they were receyued for recordes to theyr condempnynge, that were of theyr counsayle and parteners to the doynge. why [...]he kynde of folke wyll not lette to swere twyse naye before they confesse ones ye / and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde, than theyr twyse naye vppon a solempne oth / and yet confesse they not so symply, but that it is comenly holpen with some suche cyrcūstaūces [Page lxxxv] as make the mater more clere.

Nowe se you well that as hym selfe sheweth, the lawe prouydeth well a­gaynste all lyght receyuynge of such confessyon. And yet thys pacyfyer sayth that all that helpeth lytle, by­cause the iudge may be parcyall, and the wytnesse maye be a wolfe, shewynge hym selfe apparelled in the apparell of a lambe, whych apperynge in apparell, pore men that can not apparel theyr speche with apparell of retoryke, vse comenly to cal a woulfe in a lambes skynne.

But what order may serue agaynst suche obieccyons? what place is there in this world spyrituall or temporal, of whyche the iudge maye not haue some saye that he is, or at the lest wise (as he sayth here) maye be parcyall? And therfore not onely such wytnesse shold be by this reason of his reiected in heresye, treason, murder, or felony / but also by his other reson of a woulf in a lambes skynne, all maner of wytnes in euery mater. For i euery mater may it happē, y he y semeth a lambe, may be in dede a wolf / and be nought [Page] where he semeth good / & swere false where he semeth to say trew. And therfore this patche of this pacifyer cōcernynge witnesse / euery wyse man may bere wytnesse that there is lytle witte therin / and lesse good wolde growe therof, yf folke wolde folowe his in­uencyon, and make of the lawes a chaunge.

¶ Now that you haue good reders h [...]rd what we saye bothe before. Now shall you se how substancially this man defendeth his fyrst wordes agayne. These are so in this xvi. chapyter of hys newe boke hys wordes.

Nowe by reason of this obieccyon I wyll speke somwhat father in thys mater, then I dyd in the sayde treatyse. And fyrste I wyll saye thus, that yf ys to me a great meruayle, to se mayster More so faire ouerseen, or el [...]ys yf he be not o [...]rseen therin, that then he wolde yf he coulde, deceyue other and make theym so farre ouerseen, to byleue that yt shulde be one lyke reason of a periured wytnesse, that wyll loke lyke a lambe, and saye contrarye to [Page lxxxvi] that he hathe deposed before, and of a wytnesse that cometh to depose in a matter that he was neuer yet sworne vppon. For when a wytnesse ys broughte in, that was neuer sworen vppon the mater byfore / the iudge maye not by the lawe refuse hym, nor iudge any defaulte in hym / oneles he knowe a suf­fycyent cause hym selfe in that behalfe / or that the partyes do alledge yt: but he muste byleue / that he ys honeste, good and indyff [...]rent / tyll the contrarye be shewed / as euery man ys in chary­tye bounde to do of hys neyghbour. But when a wytnesse hathe deposed in the courte / and then wyll offre hym sel [...]e to depo [...]e to the contrarye that he sayde byfore: the iudge maye wyth good conscy­ence mystruste and thynke, that he doth yt of lyght­nes of mynde, hatered, or for cor [...]upcyon of mo­ney.

¶If I were in thys poynte ouer­sene, I nede not greately to be a­shamed of the ouersyghte. For then hathe there bene many suche other men ouersene also, as I wolde not wyshe to be wyser. And I no more entende to deceyue other men in thys mater, thanne many other haue entended, that vsed and al­lowed thys thynge that I defende [Page] now byfore / such men as wyth the cō dycyon that I were neuer worse, I wolde neuer wyshe to be better. This mā maketh as though it were great shame for me, to liken to gether a person ones periured, and a person that was neuer yet ones sworen. I wolde in dede be a shamed to lyken theym to gether in euery poynte, all though there were no more dyfferēce betwene theym, but that the tone had a longe nose and the tother a shorte. But I am not mych ashamed to say that for some purpose, where he spe­keth of the tone I maye speke of the tother, and lyken them well ynough to gether. For I may say (as I said) that lyke wise as he that hath for sworen hym selfe, may fayne hym selfe to saye trew, and loke lyke a lambe, and yet be a woulfe in dede: euyn so I saye maye he that neuer was sworen byfore.

¶Ye sayth thys man, but yet these [Page lxxxvii] two be not lyke. For he that was ne­uer sworen, there is no cause to mys­truste nor presume that he wyl play the woulfe in a lambes skynne. But he that hath bene forsworen, is of reason to be mystrusted / and yt is to be presumed, yt he wyll play the woulfe in a lambes skynne.

¶Marke yet in the meane whyle, y yf I could make no father answere: yet hadde I wonne and he loste. For his fyrst wordꝭ were in his boke of dyuysyon, that he that confesseth hym selfe forsworen, shold in no case be receyued to swere agayne the contrarye / bycause that though there seme a good cause to byleue hym in his seconde othe, yet yt maye be that he dothe but fayne / and I sayde so may he to fayne and dyssemble, that neuer was sworen byfore. And then yf the onely power and habylyte to fayne, were a cause suffycient to put any oue man from berynge witnesse [Page] vppon his othe: euery man were by reason repelled / for euery man ys able to fayn. This was as you se ye thynge that I then sayde. Whyche thynge neyther this mānor any man elles is able to confute, nor proue the forsworen man and the man vn­sworen vnlyke in the poynte that I lykened them / that is to wit in powre and abylyte to fayne. And farther then that, went not I. For I had no farther cause in answerynge hym there, whyle he wente no farther there, nor sayde none other, but that he that was forsworen may fayne. And nowe reade your selfe his wor­des, and loke whyther I say trewe.

¶But nowe thys beynge proued as yt is proued playne, that he hathe a fall in those wordes whyche he spake byfore: let vs a lytle se why­ther wyth thys leysour after hys mater agayne consydered a freshe, he haue caughte any better holde [Page lxxxviii] now. And surely me thynketh not one whyt.

¶For where hys newe reason re­ste [...]h in thys, that he whyche confes­seth hym selfe ones forsworen, is by reason mystrusted, as one not onely to be able to swere false, and wylyly cloke hys falshed vnder a colour of trouthe, but also presumed that he so wyll do in dede: to thys I saye that he sayeth trouthe, as longe as there is no greater presumpcyon on the tother syde to serue for hys se­conde othe. But when the case hap­peth that there is, as yt happeth in the case of this lawe: than ys the presumpcyon that he wyll swere false gone, as I shewed you byfore.

And then that presumpcion by a greater presumpcion beyng purged: this man forworne and the man vnsworn are in the thynge that I resembled them for, waxen well lyke agayne. [Page] And that the sayde presumpcyon ys purged: I shewed you byfore, in that it is now a greater presumpcyon for his seconde othe, that he wyll not fo [...] swere hym selfe, to the parell of his frende and hym selfe to.

¶Then goeth he farther, and enforceth his reason with the reason of the lawe before ye peragraph Licet was made. And therin thus he sayth.

In so mych that byfore that parag. Licet was made the iuge myght none otherwise haue done of iu [...]yce, but to haue refused to haue taken any farther examynacyon of hym. And yf he hadde, and the other had sayde contrarye to that he hadde sayde byfore: hy [...] saynge hadde ben voyde in the lawe.

¶And thys thynge wherwyth he thynketh his reason made the s [...]ren­ger, maketh his reason a great deale febler. For whyle the generall rule of refusynge suche wytnesse in all cases, was made so longe byfore: it appereth playnely that necessyte found the faute, and caused oute of the ge­nerall rule this case to be made an excepcyon / and so the lawe made by better [Page lxxxix] delyberacyon.

¶And in such other horible crymes, the same lawe is vsed in temporall courtꝭ, and was also before that law made by the chyrche.

¶But agaynste all thys yet, thys man maketh me this reason.

what the makers of the sayde peragragh ment, to put into the dyscrecyon of the iudge, that yf he saw by euydent tokens that yt is not done of lyghtnesse of mynde, nor of hatered, nor for corrupcyon of money, that hys sayenge shall stande as well agaynste hym selfe as agaynste other: I can not tell. For I can not se how there can be any euydent token in any suche case, but that there myght be in suche a periu­ [...]ed wytnesse sometyme inwarde hatered or corrupcyon that the iudge can not knowe, so that he can not iudge of certayntye that there ye none.

¶Consyder now good readers that all the strēgth of this reason hangeth in this, that the iuge can not surely se somtyme, whether the periured wyt­nesse do it for the trouth, or haue an hatered in his breste so secret that the iudge can not se yt, & therfore he can not certaynly iuge that he hath none. Consyder here now yt he sayth not yt [Page] yt is presumed, or must be presumed, that the periured wytnesse hath so / (for yf he so sayde, he sholde saye to no purpose. For as I haue shewed you how that presumpcyou maye be ouer wayed wyth greater presump­cyons to the contrary) but he sayeth that it may be in dede, that the forsworen wytnesse hath so. And then saye I yet agayne, yf we go to the possy­bylyte of the dede, and not vnto the presumpcyon and lykelyked / he that was neuer sworen byfore, may haue a secrete hatered whyche the iuge can not se, as well as he maye that was twyse sworen byfore. And theron I saye also yet agayne, that yf the iuge were charged to geue no sentēce but suche as he knew of certaynetye sure to be trewe: he coulde neuer vppon any wytnesses in this worlde geue a­ny sentence at all. For no wytnesse were there but he myght swere false & ye iuge myght wene he sware trew.

¶Now yf this man wold saye yt he [Page xc] meaneth no farther certayntie, then onely a sure thynkynge in the iudges owne conscyence, and that therfore he modered all his other wordꝭ (with this worde conscyence, sayenge that the iuge could not with cōscyēce iuge of certaintie yt there were no hatered: this meanyng were a very marryng of al yt he goeth about there to proue. For though the ꝑiured witnesse might haue (and happely hadde in dede a secrete hatered in his own breste, as an other witnes myght haue (& happely had in dede) that neuer was swore byfore: yet myght the iuge beyng i [...]du­ced by certayn tokens & lykelyhedes haue a sure & a certayn ꝑsuasyō & by­lyefe in his own cōscyence, yt neyther the tone nor ye tother had any hatered at ye time, but onely deposed ye trouth. And therfore if he wold say yt he mēt thus: he marred all his mater.

¶But it appereth playn yt he mēt in ye tother maner vpō which there must [Page] nedes folowe (yf he were not in his sayeng deceyued) that euery iudge in euery sentēce yt he shold geue vpō any witnesses, were they neuer so honest in apparēce, were in a daunger ineuy table. And that he mea [...]eth ī that maner, that the bylyefe of his owne conscyence iuduced reasonablye there­to, coulde not excuse the iudge yf he were deceyued and the thynge other wyse in dede: he declareth farther by the wordes that next ensewe, where he goeth farther thus.

And therfore me semeth that the makers of the said peragraph layd ouer great a daunger to the iudges, that they sholde haue lybertie to accept yf they wold the sayeng of hym that so offreth hym selfe agaynst hys fyrste othe / for so myche as the iudge can not be sure to saue hys conscyence therin, but yf he clerely refuse to accepte any thynge that the wytnesse wold saye contrarye to hys fyrst othe. For yf the iudge dyd otherwyse, & therupon the witnesses testyfy agaynst the partye, & yet the partie not gylty in dede: I sup­pose verily yt the iuge were party to the same offens.

¶And I suppose not the contrarie, but am very sure of ye contrarye. For I am very sure, that where the iuge [Page xci] seeth suche tokens as seme vnto him manyfeste and open tokens, to proue that his seconde othe is not offr [...]d of any corrupt effeccion, but of remor [...]e of his periurye and of a mynde to a­mende his faute and saye trewe: he falleth in no daungeour of cōscience, though the trouthe be otherwyse in dede. For yf there neuer hadde lawe bene made at all to refuse any wyt­nesse bycause he was ones periured: ye iuge had ben clere at libertie vpō resons & lekelyhedes ledyng his conscience, to haue receyued him again with out any ꝑell of his own cōsciēce at al, where so euer hym self had thought greater lykelyhed that he wolde saye trouth at the second othe, then he dyd before at the fyrste. And then syth he was now letted to receyue hym, and his lybertye therin restrayned but by a lawe made: what parell can he more fall in when a seconde lawe hathe set hym at large, then yf the [Page] formare lawe hadde neuer made the restraynte.

¶Also where the lawe there prouy­deth, that the iudge shall styll reiecte that witnesse, which offreth to tel the trouth vpon a second oth contrary to his fyrste, but if there appere many­fest tokens that he do it not of any corrupt effeccion: it meaneth none other but that yf the tokens seme suche vnto the iudge, that they induce hym in his conscyence so to byleue & thynke and not that he shalbe certayne & sure that ye thynge is so in dede, by lokyng into the secrete corners of the mānes harte / no more then the kynges iuges at the comen lawe, by what wordes so euer they geue thenqueste an oth, nor by what precyse wordes so euer they receyue theyre verdycte, meane not to charge theym vppon parell of theyre soules to say none other wyse thenne the trouthe of the thynge shal be in dede / but as the trouthe shall seme to theym to be, vppon suche [Page xcii] thynges as they shall perceyue ey­ther by the euydence geuyn theym at the barre, or otherwyse ere they came there. Nor the iudges theym selfe in the iudgynge of a matter of lawe, neuer meane precisely that the lawe is so. For then yf other iudges after reuersed that iudgement or iud­ged the same case otherwyse in a no­ther tyme bytwene other men, the tone iudges or the tother hadde putte theyr soules in parell, doynge bothe twayne theyre beste to iudge as well as they coulde.

¶But syth no man can se farther then his eyen wyll serue hym, no nor no mā can se farther thē his own reason can vppon the mater thorowly debated perceyue: yf eyther the .xii. men or the iuges, neyther neglygent nor corrupt, iuge as they thinke trew, theyr soules are saufe ynough / as saufe as is the soule of the carpen­ter, that putteth in hys frame no [Page] tymber but such as is good & sounde as farre as men can se / and yet some of yt secretely may be suche in very dede, as soon after shall fayle and fall downe all the rofe. His soule is saufe ynough, though his purse may happe to swete, yf he bounde hym selfe to prouyde the tymber at hys owne parell. But so byndeth hym selfe neyther iudge nor iurye for the wytnesse on parell of theyre owne soules, that the tother shall swere trewe.

¶And thus you se good reders that the iudge is oute of parell, vsynge dylygence and trouth, though the witnesse be false and haue hatered in his harte / where the iudge weneth none vpon tokēs yt he thynketh manifeste, al though the witnesse were forsworē before. And thus is this good man in this mater all gone quyte awry.

¶But yet beynge sore troubled wyth the wylde woulfe, that maye [Page xciii] swere false and seme trew, nothyng mystrusted bycase he cometh lapped in a lambes skynne: thys good man goeth ferther yet and therin thus he sayth.

And where I sayde in the sayd treatyse, as before appereth, that somtyme a wolfe may shew hym self in the apparell of a lambe, and that yf the iudge be parcyall, suche tokens maye soner be accepted then truely shewed: If is euydent inough, that by those wordes I note no iudge to be parcyal, but I say that yf the iudge be parcyall, suche tokens may be [...]o [...]ner accepted then truely shewed. As who sayth, the iudge may accepte such a token to be true, though there appe [...]e some suspycyon of vntruth in the wyt­nes. In whyche acceptaunce he shal more lyberally and wythout offence of the lawe do wronge to the party that is accused / then he could do by acceptyng of any other wytnesse agayns [...]e the law, that were neuer sworne before. For yf he accepte any suche wytnes cōtrary to the rules of the lawe, it appereth to all theym that knowe the lawe, that he doth agaynst the law therin: and that wyll sounde som­what to hys rebuke, and that wyll make hym the more loth to do it. But yf the iudge accepte suche a periured wytnesse where there is no suffycyent token to proue that he doth it not for lyghtnesse of mynde, hatered, corrupcyon, nor such other: yet he breketh no lawe therin. For all is commytted to his dyscre­cyon. And that may hapely gyue a boldnes to some iudge to accepte suche a periured wytnes where he ought not to accepte hym. And though the [...]ayde Peragr. say that yf there be suche tokens as before [Page] appereth, that then in fauour of the fayth hys wyt­nes shall be taken : yet I can not se, yf the party ac­cused be gyltlesse in dede, as he maye be for all that wytnesse, how it can be taken in fauour of the fayth, to accepte the wytnesse. For it can not be sayd in fa­uour of the fayth to condempne an innocent.

¶All thys tale whan it is all tolde, wayeth vnto no more, but that yf the iudge be parcyall, than he may abuse the lawe, and than that lawe in that case may do harme in heresy.

¶Now besyde that the quest he­rynge the same wytnesse sworne fyrste, and after contrarye, maye yf they be parcyall, do lyke harme in felonye: what lawe was there euer made, wherein the iudge coulde do none harme yf he wold be parcyall? what lawes maye there serue, yf the mynystres wolde be false? Thys man is content that to a mannes con­dempnacyon, the presumpcyon shall serue that the wytnesses wyll swere but trewe, suche wytnesses at the leste wyse as are not proued false [Page xciiii] before / and yet maye they marre all yf they be false a [...]d parcyall. And whan he presumeth suche indyfferē ­cye in a wytnesse: why fereth he so sore parcyalyte in a iudge? yf he saye he mystruste the iudges, bycause of some Some sayes: [...]hanne muste he mystruste wytnesses, iuryes, and iud­ges, and all togyther. For suche Some sayes there lacke not that can say well by no man.

¶Thys reason of hys dothe but putte a suspycyon in mennys hed­des agaynste the iudges, for euery thynge that is putte in theyr dyscre­cyon. But surely ( [...]s I haue often harde that greate wyse and ryghte wursshypefull manne syre Iohn̄ Fineu [...] say, late chyefe iustyce of the kynges benche) who so taketh from a iustyce the order of hys dyscre­cyon, taketh surely frome hym more thanne halfe hys offyce. If thys realme sholde mystruste iustyces: [Page] it must in the lawes than make many suche chaunges, as I neuer sawe nede yet, nor truste I neuer shall. What harme myghte any iustyce of the peace do, yf he were dysposed to be false and parcyall? And euer shall be able to do make what lawes men wyll, but yf men wolde vtterly put a waye that offyce And than in stede of one harme that maye happe, we shall haue an hundred happe in very dede.

¶Consyder also good readers, that by the lawes afore made, there was not onely forboden to bere wytnesse, he that appered to be ones forsworē, but also many other maner of crymi­nouse persons, for the generall pre­sumpcyon that they were vnworthy credence / and yet haue bene by other lawes after made, receyued to bere wytnesse agaynst them selfe & theyr felowes in heresye & in [...]reason both, for the necessyte as I haue sayd and [Page xcv] vppon presumpcions more probable that they were in that case wel likely to swere trewe.

¶Now yf this good man for fere of suche harme as maye by possyby­lyte fall vppon an innocent, wyl put one of these frome witnessynge: he must repell them all. For as the lat­ter lawes haue synnys receyued all: so the formar lawes generally dyd fyrste refuse them all. For the gene­rall rule is naturally before hys par­tycular excepcyons.

¶And than yf he wold in lykewyse repell them all, than for one harme yt may happe, and happely neuer shall: he sholde haue many myschyeuouse people very bold, whyle they myght be sure they muste nedes passe vnpunyshed, bycause theyr priuy myschief coulde neuer well be proued, but yf they wold whan they went about it, take honest men wyth theym to bere recorde of it.

[Page]¶And thus you se good readers ve­ry clere and playne, that this good man hath hytherto brought you forth no reason. And I thynke he saw that hym selfe / and therfore he though he wolde saye beter at last, and not leue it so. For thanne goeth he ferther and sayeth.

And ferthermore it appereth also, that the wordes of the sayd treatyse e [...]tende no fe [...]ther, but to suche as be iudges, where there is before them suche a periured wytnes, and not to al iudges. And in lykewyse those wordes, that a w [...]e maye shew hym se [...]e in the apparel [...] of a lambe, sitetche onely to suche a periured wytnes. For there is no other wytnesse spoken of in the sayd treatyse in that place.

¶Thys man goeth to his wordes and forg [...]tteth what I saye / whyche is that though his wordes go no fer­ther, yet the reason of his wordes (yf it were reason as I haue proued it none) wolde stretche so farre farther that it wold marre all. And this point haue I proued you very clere and playne.

And therby is ment, that suche a periured wytnesse maye haply shewe hym selfe to denye that he sayde before, of a compuncte harte and of a new knowlege [Page xcvi] of the treuth, and of a very zele vnto the [...]ayth: and yet do it in dede of couetyse, falshod, rancoure, and malyce to the party. And so as the gospell sayth, he may happe outwarde to appere in the apparell of a shepe, and within forth be a raumpynge wolfe. And suche one maye that periured wytnesse be, that i [...] spoken of in the sayde treatyse. And of suche a wyt­nes in heresye the sayd treatyse speketh onely there and of none other witnesse, as to the readers wyll appere. And therfore as me semeth, mayster More fyndeth defaute in thys behalfe, where he hadde no cause reasonable so to do.

¶Now good reders where as this man sayeth, that he ment that suche a forsworen wytnesse maye happely play the woulfe in a lambes skynne: I graunt that he ment so. But as I graunte yt to hym: so muste he graūt thys agayne to me, that so maye he playe to, that was neuer sworen be­fore. And than whyle he goeth no ferther, but that the tone happely may, and can not hym selfe saye naye but that the tother happely maye so to: there foloweth vppon that the thyng that I sayd before, whyche this man sayth he merueyleth mych yt I wold say, that ys to wytte, that by that [Page] wyse reason there sholde be receyued in suche crimynall causes, no maner wytnesse at all.

¶Now yf he leue his may happely and say that it is lykely, that the for­sworen witnesses wyll say false, and the tother trew that neuer was swo / ren before / and that the witnesse ones forsworen afore, is in his secund othe contrary to his fyrste, more lykly to playe the wyly woulfe in the lambes skynne, than suche a playne symple man as was neuer sworen before: I wyll be so bolde for thys ones as in some case to tell hym boldely nay. For where he sayd a lytell afore, yt he coulde not se how there coulde be any suche euydent token in any suche case, but that such a periured wytnes myghte do it of a secrete hatered, and seme charytable, and so play ye wyly woulfe in the simple lambes skynne: I can se well inough, yt in some case there may be an euydent token, that [Page xcvii] some suche wytnesse as was so fyrst forsworen, were after in his secunde othe swerynge the contrary, lesse lykely to lye & play the wyly woulfe in the lambes skynne, than were an other that neuer was in hys lyfe be­fore neyther forsworē nor sworen.

¶For yf he that was before vppon his o [...]h examyned both of hym selfe & his sone, or of hym self & his father, or his other specyall knowē frende, & on his othe clered them all, do at an other tyme vppon a new oth confesse them all gyltye, and hym selfe also / and where peraduenture hym selfe must to the fyre, bycause he was ab­iured before, & they maye turne yet in tyme & be but abiured: were not thys an euident token that he doth it not of any secrete hatered, nor playeth not the wyly woulf in a lambes skynne? For i wys to confesse hym selfe gylty in such case, and puttyng hym self in worse case than hys felowes, were [Page] but a pore poynt of a wyly woulfe And as I putte thys case for ensam­ple: so may there be many other. For the tokens myght be playne inough though they were lesse playne thanne thus. And therfore to conclude in this mater, this man hath no reasō in this worlde to defende hys fyrste booke wythall.

¶And therfore where he spendeth a patche in the ende, about his declara­cyon, that it may be lawfull for hym to fynde defaute at lawes made by the chyrche, so that he fynde them vppon a suffycyent reason, bycause all that poynt nothyng helpeth hym here in this law, agaynst whych he shew­eth no reason reasonable, but a reasō as vnreasonable as euer reasonable man herde: I shall I saye therfore let that piece passe by, and here make an ende of hys .xvi. chapyter.

The .xvii. cha­pyter.

HIs .xvii. chapy­ter begynneth folio .lxii. In ye be­gynnyng wher­of he merue [...]e [...]h that I speke so ofte in myne apology, of his vsyng this word Some saye. And he sheweth that in a [...]ale tolde hym by other folke, there is good reason that he so sholde say / and that I vse the same worde my selfe to sometyme, and telleth two places where, fo. 77. and fo. 100. I neither dyd nor wyll fynde fawt that he vse this worde some say / nor I wyll not let (where the case requireth) to saye my selfe, yt some say this or that. For I know well it is englyshe. But the fawte that I founde and yet fynd, is that hys booke of diuysyon abuseth [Page] the figure of so many some sayes, to the sedicyo [...]s slawnder / of ye clergye / and specyally of thordinaryes in the punysshement of heresy, to bryng thē in obloquy of the people therby. And where as vppon cōplayntꝭ made the maters haue late ben examined, & the treuth hath ben playnely proued con­trary: yet hath he neuer one Some say therof in al his boke, neyther in ye tone boke nor the tother / but all hys Some sayes euer more saye euyll, & neuer a Some say well. This is the fawte that I fynde. For yf he made a boke with fiue times as many good Some sayes, as his Some sayes in that boke be nought: I wold fynd in his Some sayes no defawt at all. For some say is (as I saye) good en­glysshe. But whan a booke is full of shrewde Some sayes: there do some men saye, that Some saye is as shrewd an englysh, as any dowch woman speketh.

[Page xcix]¶But now to shew that in all hys Some sayes he meneth none harme, he goeth ferther, and for a sample he bryngeth forth one, whych is in very dede a very malycyouse noughty pestylent Some saye, wherof the pre­tence is the sauegarde of innocentes / theffecte is the dekaye of the faythe by the boldyng of heretykes, the in­strument is a false imagyned slaūder agaynst the ordynaryes. And as wy­lyly as those shrewys that begyle hym haue holpe hym to inuolue and in [...]ryke the mater: I shall vse so playne and open a waye therin, that euery man shall well se the trouth.

Lo these are thys good mannes wordes.

And one of the (some sayes) that he fyndeth defau [...]e at is thys: I saye in the .viii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse thus: And here some saye [...] that bycause there is so greate a desyre in spyrytuall men, to haue men ab [...]iured or to be noted wyth heresye: And that some as it were of a polycye doo noyse it, that the realme is full of heretykes, more then it is in dede, that it is very peryllous, that spyrytuall men shulde haue auctoryte to arres [...]e a man for euery lyght sus­ [...]peccyon [Page] or complaynt of heresye, tyll that desyre of punyshement in spyrytuall men be ceassed and gone but that they sholde make processe agayne them to brynge them in vppon payne of cursynge: and then y [...] they t [...]ye .vi. dayes, the kynges lawes to bryng them in [...] by a wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo, and so to be brought forth out of the kynges gayo [...]e to an [...]were. And it foloweth in the sayd .viii. cha­piter thu [...]: but surely as it is somwhat touched be­f [...]re in the .vii. chapyter, it semeth that the churche in tyme [...] haue done what they coulde to brynge about that they myght punysh heresy of them self, wythout cal [...]ynge for any helpe therin of the [...]ecu­lar power. And therfore they haue made lawes that heretykes m [...]ght be arrested, and put in pryson, and stockes y [...] nede w [...]re, as appe [...]eth in Clementinis de h [...]reticis, Cap. Multorum querela. And after at the specyall cal [...]ynge on of the spyrytualty, it was en­acted by parlyament, that or [...]ynaryes myght arest men [...] that preche [...] holde, teche, or enforme other in heresye, there pr [...]h [...]yte, or that therof holde any [...]onuentycles or [...]ch [...]ys. For [...]me men thynke that the sayd Clementine was not of effect in the kyn [...]es lawes to arrest any man for heresye. But yf a man were openly and notably sus [...]ected of heresye, and there were suffycyent recorde and wytnes agaynste hym and there were also a d [...]u [...]te, that he wolde [...]lee and not appere, wherby he myght infecte other it [...]meth cōuenyent [...] that he be arrested by the body, but not vpon euery lyght complaynt that full lyghtly may be vntrue. And that it wyll be [...]yght expe­dyent that the kynges hygh [...]es and hys consayle [...]oke [...]pecyally vpon thys mater, and not to cesse, tyl it be brought to moore quietnes then it is yet: and to se with great dylygence that pryde, couetyse, nor [Page c] worldly loue be not iudges, nor innocentes be punysshed ne yet that wylfull o [...]fenders go not wyth [...]ut due correccyon.

And when mays [...]er More in his apologye hath recyted the sayd wordes of the sayd trea [...]y [...]e: then he endeuoyreth hym sel [...]e very moch, to make it [...]p­pere that the mocions that he made in the s [...] trea­tyse in the place before rehersed be vnreasonable, & can not be brought aboute: or els that yf they we [...]e brought aboute they sholde do hurte and [...]. And to make hys sayenges the more accept [...] / he la [...]eth sometyme defa [...]te in my sayenges and sayth tha [...] I therby defame the iudges spyrytuall, where I defame them not / but say onely that it is [...]pedy­ent that the kynge [...] hyghnes and hys couns [...]yle se / that pryde couetys [...] nor worldly [...]one be n [...] iudges. And whether thoo wordes amount to that effecte / that mays [...]er More sayth they do / that is [...] saye that I defame all spyrytuall iudges it appereth e [...] ­dentely they do not.

¶Now good readers to the entent that you may the more playnely per­ceyue, both the good mynde of thys good mannys fyrst boke of dyuysyō and also his secunde boke here in de­fence of ye same: take ye labour to rede the .xlvi. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 232. And than shall you thynke I suppose, yt all hys defence is so faint that I lytell nede to reply.

[Page]¶For fyrst where he sayth, that I saye that in those wordes, he dyffa­meth the iudges spyrytuall: I wold he had rehersed my wordꝭ with whi­che I saye so. For I am sure inough my wordꝭ be no larger than ye treuth. But that is hys vsuall crafte to leue out for the more part, both my wordꝭ & the place, bycause mē myght wene it were ī some part of my boke though they remember not where.

¶But now bycause he sayeth, that it is euydent that those wordes of his do not amounte vnto the dyffamaciō of the spyrytuall iudges: I haue shewed and proued in dede in one or two places of myne apologye, that a [...]l the great mater of his complaynt, vppon the crueltye of the spyrytuall iudges, in handelyng men for heresy, syth there hath bene very fewe trou­bled therfore in any dyocise in En­glande or Walys / by ye space of these xx. yeres or .xxx. laste passed / except [Page] onely Lyncoln and London / and that therfore the false complaynt of mysse handelynge, could haue lytle colour any farther then those two dyoceses / and yet to saye the [...]routhe neuer complaynt broughte forth by any suche man but in London dyocese, nor yet not but in London and some pyece of Essex alone / and the complayntes vppon examinacyon hadde by the kynges honorable counsayle, alwaye founde causelesse and false: syth thys is I saye so clere, that no man can saye the contrarye, but that thys is trew, I declare and shew in my sayde appologye, that where wyth hys false some sayes he de­fameth and laboreth to brynge in obloquye of the people, all the spyrytuall iudges in the realme: of wrong and cruell handelynge men for heresye, all the men yt his false some says (if they were trew) dyd touche, were yet in dede so few, that he myght in a [Page] maner as well speke of thē by name. And in very dede so few they be. For they be as few or fewer, then are the iuges eyther of the tone benche or the tother.

¶And therfore whē he cometh now forthe vnder shadowe of a shrewed some saye, and sheweth that the spy­rytualle men haue a great desyre to put men to abiuracyon, and to haue mē noted of heresy, and that therfore tyll they leue that condycyon, it were well done they sholde haue lesse au­thorytie / & that yt wyll be ryght expedyent that the kynge and hys coun­sayle loke specyally vppon thys mater, and to se wyth great dylygence, that pryde, couetise, nor worldly loue be not iudges, nor innocentes punny­shed, nor yet that offenders go not wythout dew correccyon: ys not this a lewde colored slaunder and (wyth­out any such thynge proued) a shame lesse dyffamacyon?

¶If thys good man wold in lyke [Page cii] wyse wryte and put in prent a nother boke, and there in speke fyrst of ius [...]yces in generall, as it myght s [...]me to touche all the iudges of euery base court, & iustyces of the peace to / and then by some certayn cyrcūstaunces restrayne it in such wyse, [...]hat euery mā may se that he meaneth onely the kyngꝭ iuges at w [...]stmynster, [...] say, yt some say that specially of la [...]e the maters of comen plees be euyll hādeled by the iudges / and yt in writtes o [...] er­rour & in ple [...]s of the crowne the iudges mysse handle the people sore and do mych wrong / & that some say that they haue this euyl desyre, & yt / & yt tyl they haue left them, it were w [...]l done that they had lesse authoryte. And thē after such a false folyshe some say [...], com forth with his sayeng, & in approbacyon of his other sayng, conclude & saye thus myche farther, it wyll be ryght expediēt therfore, that the kynges hyghnesse and hys counsayle [Page] loke specally vppon this mater, and to se wyth great dylygēce that pryde couetyce, nor worldely loue be not iuges &c, were this wyly folyshe han­delynge no false dyffamacyon at all?

¶And nowe when he handeleth the spyrytuall ordynaryes wyth lyke wordꝭ for heresye, and his somesays false ymagyned lyes / and though hys boke of dyuison laboreth to draw that false suspicyon farther / yet hym selfe seeth by experyence that whyle there hathe in long whyle but in two dyoceses very fewe bene punyshed for heresye, the slaunder that he sow­eth toucheth some very few, no lesse thē though he wrote in theyr names. How cā he therfore for very shame saye that yt is no dyffamacyon? We­neth he the reders of his worke were all such folys, that he myght auoyde his playne open dede wyth his bare bolde worde, where he sayth yt appereth euydentely nay, where euery [Page] wyse man that readeth yt seeth well hym selfe that yt well appereth euy­dently yes.

¶Nowe goeth he farther wyth a nother pyece and sayth.

Nor yet my wordes proue not that I wolde haue al spyrytuall iudges chaunged. For the spyrytuall iudges that be nowe, maye be iudges styll, and haue al the propertyes before rehersed, as well as other, for any thyng that I haue sayd. And yet mayster More taketh yt otherwy [...]e, and sayeth / I wolde haue such iudges, as haue no spyce of any of the sayd poyntes. And he sayth, that tyll suche iudges may be founde, heretykes may make mery for a lytle season / why [...]e men walke aboute and seche for such iudges / which he weneth wyll not be done in a wekes worke.

¶Here he leueth oute agayne the place of myne that he toucheth. For when that is ones redde, all hys gay tale is gone. For there shall you se that I consyder hys wordes, and de­clare two wayes that the good man myght meane / of whyche twanne he taketh here the tone, and the tother he lette [...]h slype. And yet in takynge his wordes as he wolde nowe seme: my wordes whyche he dyssembleth [Page] here, turne vppe a [...]l his tale / and that the man sawe full well / and therfore wynked of theym. But I shall br [...]nge theym in agayne here, and re­pe [...]e theym for hym. Lo good rea­ders in y .xlvi. chapiter fo. 253. after h [...]s w [...]rdes rehersed at length, thus I [...] myne owne.

I [...] thys processe lo good readers this pacyfyer declareth, that he wold haue the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle so specyally loke vppon thys mater, that neyther innocentes sholde be punyshed, nor yet wylfull offenders go wythoute dewe correc­cyon [...] who could ende and cōclude all hys mater more frutefully.

But now the specyall ways wherby he dyuyseth, that the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle sholde bryng this thynge about be twayne.

The tone is, yf they prouyde that neyther men that be proude nor co­uetouse, nor haue any loue to the worlde, be suffred to be iudges in a­ny [Page ciiii] cause of h [...]resye.

The tother ys, that the byshoppes shall arreste no man for heresye, tyll the desyre that spyrytuall men haue to cause men abiure heresyes, and to punyshe theym for heresyee, be cea­sed and gone.

And surely I thynke that his two dyuyses wyll serue suffycyently for the tone parte / that ys to wytte that none innocentes shall be punyshed. But I fere me very sore, that they wyll not serue halfe so suffycyently for the tother parte, that ys to wytte that wylfull offendours go not with oute correccyon.

For now to begynne with his fyrst dyuyse, that none be suffred to be iudges in cause of heresye, yt are proude or couetouse, or haue loue to ye world yf he meane of suche as haue none of these affeccyons wyth notable enor­myte, then tyll he proue theym that are all redy worse thenne he proueth them yet / that is to saye tyll he proue yt otherwyse by some of theyre out­ragyouse [Page] dedes in the dealynge and myshandelyuge of men for heresy, yt he here defameth them of, thē he hath yet proued, and that he proue theyre cruell wrongful dealynge, otherwyse then by somesayes, or by hys owne sayenge: the kynges hyghnes & hys counsayle can se for all hys holesome counsayle, no cause to chaunge those iudges that are all redy, but to leue them styll / and them serueth that dy­uyse of nought.

And on the other syde, yf he meane that the kynges hyghnesse shal suffer none to be iudges in cause of heresye that hath any spyce at all, eyther of pryde, or of couetyse, or any loue at all vnto thys worlde: heretykes may syt styll and make mery for a lytle season, whyle men walke about and seke for such iuges. For yt wyl not be lesse then one whole wekes worke I wene both to finde such, and to be sure that they be suche.

¶Here haue you herd good reders a resonable cause why that I sholde take hym that he wolde haue the spyrytuall [Page cv] iuges, such as shold haue no spice of pride couetouse nor worldly loue. For either he must meane so / or elles (as I sayde) he must meane on the tother maner which I reherse fyrste, and whych he wold now seme to mean. But then (as I haue sayd) yf he ment in the fyrst fashyon as he wolde now seme: all his tale is ouer turned. For then hadde he no cause of any suche complaynte. For he n [...]yther hadde hym selfe when he wrote nor any man elles, preued by any of theym the contrary. And then neded he not to spende oute hys profounde wysedome, in makynge suche exhor­tacyons to the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle, to se with so great dilygence (as though they had be so long neglygent) to the thyng that him self could not say nay, but yt it was metely well ynough all redy. And thus you se good reders that he lefte oute and dissembled that fyrst part of my wordes, [Page] bycause he wys [...]e nere what to saye therto. And therfore syth, except he mēt in the fyrst maner (which he could not do without the marryng of all his mater) you se well that him self droue me to thynke, that he wold haue the kynges grace and his coun­sayle, se dylygently that there shold be no spyrituall iudgꝭ, but they yt had no spice of pryde, couetise, or worldly loue at all. And then myghte herety­ques as I sayd (whyle suche iudges were in sekynge) make mery for a lytle whyle. And I kepte my selfe metely well wythin my boun­des. For where I sayde yt wolde be a wekes worke to seke theym: I wene yt wold he fourtenyght ful ere we founde them.

¶But then gooth he farther some­what aboute to shewe, that I haue mysse handeled his wordes, & wyth ioynynge myne owne vnto his, haue made yt seme that he sayeth myche [Page cvi] worse by the spyrytualtye then he eyther sayde or ment. But when you haue herde all hys tale and myne to, you shall well se good readers that he shall neuer whyle he lyueth conuey this gere so clene. For these are fyrste his wordes here.

And he sayeth / that yt wyll be the more harde to [...]ynde suche iuges. For he sayth, that I haue putte that mater oute of doute / that where no men wol [...]e haue wende [...]oneste to haue founde theym, that there I saye / yt wyll be meruaylouse harde to [...]ynde any one of theym / eyther prelates, seculere prestes or relygyouse persons. For he saythe that I saye playnely / that haue they neuer so many vertues besyde / that yet I saye, yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man / but that he ys so infected wyth desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldely honour of prestes exalted / that he is thorough suche pryde farre fro suche indyfferency and equytye, as oughte and muste be in suche iudges / whych as he saythe, I assygne to be suche, that they muste haue no spyce of pryde couetyse nor lo [...]e towarde the worlde.

As to thys laste rehersed sentence of master More this is ye trouth therin / I say in an other place of the sayde treatyse, other then that / that mayster More hath rehersed here / that is to say, in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse, that though many spyry­tuall men maye be founde, that haue many grea [...] [Page] [...]ertues, and great gyftes of god / as chastyte, lyberalytye, pa [...]yence, [...]obernesse, temperaunce con­nynge and suche other: yet yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man that ye not infecte wyth the sayde desyre and affeccyon / to haue the worldely honour of pres [...]ye axalted. And there my sentence endeth, as to thys purpose. But then as yt appereth before, mays [...]er More in hys sayde Apolo­gye addeth immedyatly to those wordes of myne, wordes of his own puttynge in / whyche be these: That he ye through such pride ferre fro such indifferēce and equyte / as ought & muste be in the iuges, whyche he sayth I assygne. And he combyneth tho wordes to myne / in suche maner as though I spake theym my selfe. So that they that shall rede theym, can none otherwyse take theym, but as my wordes: wherby he perue [...]teh clerely my meanynge and my sentence therin. For my sentēce, ne yet my meanyng therein / is not but that iudges spyrytuall maye haue some spyce of pride couetyse and worldly loue, and yet be meate iudges in heresye / as the frayltye of mā suffereth. For we be no angelles but synners, that lyghtlye may fall and be deceyued. Ne I meane not, ne yet my worde [...] amount not to yt, but that a man may haue a desyre and affeccion / to haue the worldly honour of prestes exalted / and yet be a mete iudge in heresye. For I suppose / that a man may haue that desyre in some degree, and to some entent / and not offende therin / specyally dedely. How be yt he may also lyghtly offende therin, yf he be not ryght well ware.

¶If thys good man her saye trew in these aforesayde wordes of hys And there my sentence endeth as to this purpose: [Page cvii] then am I content to confesse, that he sayth well, and I wronge. But on the tother syde nowe, yf he saye not trewe, hut that in the defamynge and slaunderynge of the spyrytualty, his sentence ended not there, but wen [...]e there myche farther forth, and so far forthe also / as amounted vnto as myche as I saye that he sayde, & vn­to myche more to: then wyll euery man bere me recorde, that I mysse reporte not hym but he me.

¶Now shall you good reders sone se thys tryed bytwene vs. For hys whole wordis as they lye there to gether, I shall nowe reherse you here. Lo these they be as you shall fynde them bothe in hys boke of dyuysyon, and in myne Apologye fo. 237.

And though many spyrytuall men m [...]y be founde, that haue ryghte many great vertues and great gyf­tes of god, as chastyte, lyberalytye, pacyence sobe [...] nesse, temperaunce, connynge, and suche other / yet yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall mā that is not infecte wyth the sayde desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldely honour of prestys exalted [Page] and prefe [...]red / & therfore yf any lay man reporte any euyll of a pres [...]e / though yt be openly knowen that yt is as he sayeth / yet they wyll be more dylygent to cause the laye man to cease of that sayenge / then to do that in them is to reforme that is a mysse in the preste that it is spoken of / takyng as if were an occasyon to do the lesse in suche [...]eformacyons / bycause laye men speke so myche agaynst theym: But sure­ly that wyl be none excuse to spyrytual rulers afore god / when he shall aske accompt of hys people / that were commytted vnto theyr kepynge.

¶Now you se good reders, how vntrew it ys yt this man telleth you. For here you se yt his sentence leueth not where he sayth yt lefte as to that purpose: but you se that yt goeth forth farther aboute that purpose styll, to shewe that it wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man iuste & indyf­ferent, but that the desyre and affec­cyō to haue ye worldly honour of prestes exalted and preferred, hath so farre infected them, that yf a lay mā reporte any euyll of a preste, though it be opēly knowen yt it is as he sayth, yet they wyl not onely rather put the lay man to sylence, then any thynge [Page cviii] amende the preste: but that they will also do the lesse to the amendment of ye preste, because the lay men speketh of yt. whyche affeccyon can not be but a very proude dampnable fro­wardnesse.

¶And therfore whyle this good pacifyer there sayth, that all the prestes be so farre infecte wyth such a proud damnable desyre of theyre wordely exaltacyon, that yt wylbe harde to fynde any one of them any other. And then a lytle byfore those wordes (as you may se in hys sayde chapyter in myn apologye fo. 235. he sayth vn­der the fygure of a great rumour a­monge the peple / that spyrytuall mē punyshe heresyes rather to oppresse them that speke any thynke agaynste theyre worldely honour and rychesse &c: then for zele of the fayth: these wordꝭ of his beyng there such, iudge nowe good reader whether I might not well say yt this good man saiyh it [Page] wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man, but that he is so infected with the desyre and affeccyon to haue the wordely honour of prestes exalted, that he is thorough suche pryde farre fro such indifferēcye & equyte, as oughte and mus [...]e be in suche iud­ges as him selfe assygneth to be such as they muste haue no spyce of pryde couetyse or loue toward the worlde. I am very sure yt hys wordes mayntayne myne and more to.

Naye (sayth he) for I do not meane that they shold haue no spyce therof. For they may haue some spice therof: and yet maye be iudges in heresye well I­nough. For they may haue that desyre in some de­gree and some entente, and not offende therin, specyally dedely.

¶But I haue agaynste yt proued afore that he muste meane so: or el­lys muste haue lefte hys tale vn­tolde. Fo yf he ment to be contente wyth folke of meane condycyons wythoute notable enormyties, suche they were all redy, and then had his great exhortacyon lytle place.

[Page cix]¶Also this pryde with whyche hys wordes saye that they be all so sore infected, that it wylbe very harde to fynde any one other / is a very pesty­lent pryde / and in an hygh degre, and suche as he coulde not well deuyse a more dedely dyffamacyon of the hole spyrytualtye / than those wordes be, whyche yf they were trew (as they be false) playnely proued, that in all the hole clergy it were hard to fynde any one good honest man, or me [...]e to be a iudge, eyther in heresye or in any thynge ellys. And so wold he by this deuyce of his, take awaye as I sayd frome examynacyon of heresye, all the spyrytuall iudges, and leue them none at all.

And yet good readers to thende that you maye the better perceyue, what those wordꝭ of this man amoūt vnto / whyche he wolde make you wene here that I both mysse reherse and myssecōs [...]re: wouch saufe to rede [Page] my wordes that I wryte vpon them in myne apologye folio. 238.

¶But now this good pacyfyer perceyuynge, that it wylbe harde to bere it, but that his wordes clerely take a­way fro the clergye, all suche indyfe­rency and iustyce, as hym selfe assygneth to be requyred of necessyte, in e­uery man that shold be suffred to be iudge in heresy / he falleth to another shyfte to saue the mater vpryght. And therin thus he sayth.

And farthermore though it were [...] mayster More taketh it to be / that my wordes shuld sounde to that effect that the iu [...]es yt were thē were, through such pryde farre fro the indyfferencye and equytye that I assygne: yet that proueth not / but that they be now indyfferent and ryghtwyse. For they myght syth the ma [...]ynge of the sayde treatyse, bycome through grace, indyfferent, ryghtwyse, meke, lyberall, and louynge to god and theyr neyghbour / though they were not so then. And yf they be, so then heretyke [...] shall not make mery for lacke of iudges a weke ne yet a daye. For the same iudges may sit styll wyth­out chaungynge / to here and e [...]amyn theym whan nede shalbe. Thus as me semeth, it appereth euery waye / yt the excepcyō that mayster More taketh of [...]haūgyng of spyrytuall iuges is but of smal effecte.

¶This reasō hath so some s [...]tylty: but it hath no substaunce. For yf [Page cx] they were all so noughty so late, as this good man saith they were, it wyl be but hardely byleued, that so many of them, vppon so shorte a sermon of this poore precher, sholde be so well chaūged so soone, but that as I said, theretykes were well lyke, yet one weke lenger to make mery, before men myghte haue so sure experyence as to put theym so sone in truste to be iudges in heresye, whom thys pacy­fyer hadde perswaded to be so farre vnmete for the mater so late. And therfore it appereth euery waye that thys good mannys inuencyon is to­warde euyll of very great / towarde good of very small effecte.

¶Than goth he forth on with the mater and thus he sayth.

Then sayth mayster More ferther that yf some say [...]e no suffycyent profe / then is my tale all l [...]st. And to these wordes I wyll answere thus. I wyll agree that my sayenge that some saye thys or thys / is no profe / neyther to proue that some saye so / ne yet to proue that it is so. For in euery profe must be two wytnesse at the leste. But yf two wyll saye it is so [...] then it is a proffe.

[Page]And surely yf mayster More wyll inquere for the truth in thys mater, he shall fynde that there be many mo then two that say so. And veryly yf many m [...]n saye so [...] though the tre [...]th be not so, yet the ta [...]e i [...] not all loste to say that some men say so. For then it shall put the byshoppe [...] and rusers spyrytuall in mynde, that they are bounde in conscience to helpe them that saye so all that they can [...] fro the daunger that they ronne in by that sayeng. And yf it be true, then may the spyrytuall rulers order the mater as they shall se cause, and reforme it in suche chary [...]a­b [...]e maner that none shall say so hereafter: but they wyll of malyce do it, and renne into the slander of the Pharyseis: and that wolde charytably be exa­myned, whether it be so or not.

¶Thys is a prety pyece, and suche as I haue seldome sene ye lyke, come out of any wyse mannys mouth. For though that in iugement, men muste presume a thynge is trewe, whyche two good honest persons sworē and examyned depose and testyfye, that themself haue sene the dede, or herde the wordes spoken, by the mouth of the person whyche for suche dede or sayenge is accused: yet sayth no man for all that / that bycause two men say it and swere it to, therfore it is so. For as to the necessary consequence [Page cxi] of the dede / this argument is very faynt that thys man maketh. Two men saye it is so, ergo it is so.

¶Than vpon thys argument such as you se, he sendeth me to inquere and than I shall he sayth fynde, that there be many mo than two that saye so. That maye well happe now, by occasyon of his boke of dyuysyon. But what yf I enquered of them. that I shold happe to fynd not onely many mo thā two, but also many mo than two hundred, that wold say that the spyrytuall men for such euyll af­feccyons as this good pacyfyer sur­myseth, haue great desyre to abiure men or note theym of heresye: y [...]t whyse all they coulde amonge them all ley no profe at all / but alway the trouth proued contrary, both by that, that in farre the moste parte of thys realme, and take Walys therto, there haue not ben before his boke of diuy­sion, fiue men abiured in fiftene yere. [Page] And in those that haue bene / rigour hath not ben vsed more thā necessary: but there hath ben vsed more than necessary fauour / & that this hath ben alredy proued ofter than ones, before the kynges honorable counsayle, I wold not esteme the bablyng of two hūdred, no not though they were two thousand, & yet many mo to, the moū ­tenaūce of .ii. strawes / for any thyng that I wold regard any good man yt wurse. But I wold for theyr owne partes be sore ashamed to here them, & clerely perceyuynge yt they so lew­dely lyed: I wolde be sore ashamed to tell the tale agayn after them. And this I say yf I sholde with inquery thus happe to fynde, as I veryly trust I shold not yf I dyd enquere.

¶But now his Some say beynge so false as it is, it is a world yet to se what a founde shyfte he fyndeth, that he wolde not yet by hys wyll haue that lye loste. For he sayth, [Page cxii] that though the tre [...]th be not so, yet the tale is not loste to say that some men say so. For (he saith that) then it shall put the byshoppes and spyrytuall ru­lers in mynde, that they are bounde in conscience to helpe theym that saye so all that they can, fro the daungeour that they ronne in by so sayeng.

¶What good I praye you can thys false Some saye do? For what can ye spyrytuall men do for theyr helpe yt so bylye them? any other thā aduise them to leue suche lyeing? And that had ben a better parte for thys good pacyfyer to haue played hym selfe, & so to haue told them vpō whose tale he wrote it: thā to ye reproch & rebuke of so many good worshypfull men make a boke of diuisyō, & therin write euery lewde worde, that any lewde folke, or any false shrewes wolde tell hym. Whose euyll tonges the spyrytualtye can neuer appease: but yf to please thē they sholde dysplease god / and without lettynge heresyes growe and go forth, shold them selfe rather do euyll than let lewde folke speke euyll.

[Page]¶And now to thentent good reders that you may the more clerely se, to how lytell purpose the pacifyer hath in thys poynt answered me / ye shall vnderstande that my wordes in myn apology whiche he wold seme to an­swere well here, were these. fo. 257.

But yet is thys pacyfyer not so fauourable towarde folke suspected of heresye, as to take away the power of the byshoppe for euer, of arrestynge them, and to dryue the ordynaryes for euer to sue cytacyons agaynst he­retykes and processe of excommuni­cacyon / but wyll haue he sayeth the bysshoppes power of arrestynge no lenger suspended, thanne as longe as spyrytuall menne haue that great desyre to cause menne abiure or to haue theym punysshed for heresye / as though he hadde well proued that they haue so, bycause he sayeth that some men say so.

But now yf Some say be no sufficyent profe / than is hys tale lost. For than he sheweth no cause why that [Page cxiii] power of theyrs sholde in any case be more suspēded now, than in any time here before. And on the tother syde, yf some say be a good profe / than the [...]uspendynge wyll be as longe as a depryuynge for euer, syth there shall neuer be any tyme in whyche there shall lacke one or other some saye to saye more than trouth.

¶Lo good readers here you se, that vnto the secunde parte of these wor­des of myne, he answereth nothynge at all. And than haue you sene before that vnto the fyrste, hys answere is so feble, that it had ben better for him to haue done therwyth as he dothe wyth the tother, leue it vnanswe­red to.

¶But nowe goeth he ferther and saith, Then sayth mayster More yet ferther, that which is a lyghte suspycyon and whyche is a heuy, and whyche wytnes be suffycyent, and whych not, must be weyed by the spyrytuall iudges, and vppon theyr weyinge of the mater for lyght or heuy, to folowe the arrest of the party, or the leuynge of the arrest. [Page] Now veryly in thys poynt me thynketh that may­ [...]er More maketh a ryght good mocyon, that is to saye, that the mater shulde be examyned before the arreste. For it hath ben sayd in tymes paste, that in suche ca [...]e the arrest hath many tymes gone before the examynacion. Neuerthelesse vnder what maner the examynacyon and the arrest shulde be made in suche case, I wyll make no deuyse at this tyme: For happely mayster More wold anone fynde a defawt at it, and therfore I wyll leane it to them that haue auctoryte, to treate ferther of it, and to dyuyse how to auoyde the mase that mayster More speketh of in hys sayd .xlvi. chapyter.

¶Now good readers this man ma­keth here, as though I hadde geuen hym in my wordes, some greate ad­uauntage to groūde some great ma­ter vppon. And therfore I shall re­herse you what my wordꝭ were, that your selfe maye se how sore I ouer­saw my selfe therin, and what he me­neth by the mase that he nameth here These are lo my wordes in myne apologye fo. 257.

yet is he content at the laste, leste euery man myghte spye the perell of hys deuyce, to temper hys deuyce in suche wyse, that tyll the spyrytualty [Page cxiiii] haue lefte theyr cruell desyre of abiu­rynge and punysshynge folke for heresye, they sholde not be suffred to ar­reste folke for euery light suspycyon, or euery complaynt of heresye. How be it he graunteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of he­resye, and suffycyēt recorde and wyt­nes agaynst hym, & bysydes all that, a dowte that he wolde fle wherby he myghte enfecte other: than he graū ­teth it conuenyent that he shold be arrested by the body. And therin he bryngeth in the Clementine and the statute, by whcih the ordinaries haue power to arrest fol [...]e for suspycyon of heresye / and wold as farre as I per­ceyue, haue the kynge reforme them after hys deuyce. But yet syth whych is a lyght suspycyō, and whych is an heuy / and whych is a lyght cōplaynt, and whych is an heuy / and whych is an open suspycyon, and whyche but a preuy, and whyche suspycyon ys notable, and whyche is not notable, and whyche wytnesses be suffycyent, [Page] and which be not suffycyent, be thyn­ges that must be wayed by the spyry­tuall iudges / and vppon theyr way­ [...]nge of the mater for lyght or heuy, muste folowe the arrestynge of the party or the leuynge of the arreste: we be come agayne as in a mase to the poynt where we beganne, that be the mater greate or smale, lest all the whyle they be cruell they shold iudge lyghte heuy and smale greate, theyr arrestynge of any at all muste be sus­spended fro them, and sende them to sue by cytacyon, tyll men se that same mynde of theyrs of desyryng mennes abiuracyon and punysshement vtterly chaunged and ceace / that is to say tyll there be no man lefte that wyll so mysche as saye, that some men saye that they haue not lefte that mynde yet, and make a lye agayne of theym than, as those some haue done that haue so sayde all redy to syr Iohn̄ some say now. And longe wyll it be I warraunt you ere euer all suche folke fayle.

[Page cxv]And therfore syth in the mean season by thys pacyfyers good deuyse, here [...]tykes maye go vnarrested / I can not byleue that yf his way were folowed, it wold be any good meane to make that wylful offenders in heresy shold not passe vnpunysshed, as faste as bothe in the ende of thys chapyter & the tother before also, he calleth vpō the kynges hyghnes and hys coun­sayle and hys parleament, to loke vppon thys mater after his good aduertysement, and neuer ceace tyll they brynge it to effecte.

¶Here you se good readers, by­cause thys man wyth hys deuyces bryngeth hym selfe into a mase, out of whyche he can not se how to gete, he wold now set other folke to study there about. And wolde make theym very carefull, aboute a thynge lytle nedefull. For it hath well appered, & well ben proued to, that the spyritual iuges haue yet hytherto in arrestyng for heresy, ryght well examyned and [Page] considered, fyrst bothe the cause, and the necessyte, & haue ben rather therin many tymes to slow / than any tyme ouer hasty. And therfore I maye and wyll say here agayn as I sayd there, that I lytell dowte but that yf the kynges hyghnes do as I dowte not but his hyghnes wyll do, maynteyne and assyste the spyrytualty in execu­tyng of the lawes, euyn those yt are all redy made agaynst heresyes / & cō maunde euery tēporall officer vnder hym to do ye same for his part: though ther were neuer mo new laues made therfore, yet shall both innocentes be saued harmelesse well inough, & offendours punyshed to. ¶To thys cō ­meth forth this good mā in this wise.

Now veryly to those wordes of mayster More I dare say thus, that mayster More or he had spoken tho wordes, had occasyon by reasonable coniecture to haue doubted more at the mater thenne he hath done, and to haue thought it very lyke, that yf the same lawes shulde s [...]onde as do nowe in euery poynt concernynge heresye, that many innocentes that be not gylty, myghte vppon suspeccyon of heresy be dryuen to pourge theym selfe, after the wyll of the ordynarye, and yet be not gylty [...] ye and ouer that [Page cxvi] mayster More myghte haue reasonably doubted, & as I suppose in consciēce he ought to haue doubted more then he hath done, that somtyme innocente [...] myghte happen vppon the suyte Ex officio, or vp­pon lyght complayntes by fauour of offycers, or [...]p­pon malyce or dyspleasure, be arrested before exami­nacyon, and yet mayster More hym selfe assenteth, that the examynacyon shulde be before the arreste. And he myghte haue doubted also, that some inno­centes myght by suche periured persons, as be aboue rehersed in thys chapyter be somtyme condempned. And therfore the sayde wordes of mayster More wherby he taketh vppon hym to saye, as it were in hys owne auctoryte to performe it, that innocentes by the same lawes as be all redy made for heresye, shalbe saued harme lesse well inough, myght happē to be of small effect to helpe an innocent man or wo­man that shulde happen to be wrongfully troubled in tyme to come agaynst hys wordes before rehersed

¶Now verily to all these wordꝭ of this good mā, I dare say thus, that I whā I wrote the wordꝭ had & yet haue very good cōiecturs to put litle dowt therin. For though I myghte thynke yt this harme and this harme myghte happe: yet syth I haue well sene it proued, yt the spyritual iudges haue vsed thē self ī these maters, not onely so truly, but ouer yt also so fauorably / yt no mā can ꝓue in this realm suche harmes to haue happed yet / [Page] but where as such thynges haue ben of late surmysed, the trouth hath ben well proued contrary byfore the kyng [...]s honorable counsayle / I had and haue very good cause to thynke, that as they haue done well hytherto, so shall they well do hereafter.

¶And syth all thys good mannes grownd is no more, to take away wel approued lawes with, but ye harme maye happe sometyme, to some good man therby, whyche reason he maye make agaynst the beste lawe that all the worlde can make: I dare be bold to warraunt, that that colde reason so feruentely sette forthe in suche a weyghty mater, is not well worthe a ryshe.

¶And yf men wolde go aboute to chaūge these old long proued lawes: I wolde as my duyte is, praye god geue them ye grace to make the chaū ­ges good / but for that lytle wyt that I haue, I veryly byleue and thynke [Page cxvii] that [...]f any chaunges be made rather more slacke then streighter: then shal the chaunges be made rather farre worse then better. And thus ende I good readers this good mannys xvii. chapyter.

The .xviii. chapyter

HIs .xviii. chapyter begynneth, fo. lxix. Wherin he begīneth first wyth the ca. vt inquisitionis ne­gocium & li. vi. wherby yt appereth, that all lordes and rulers temporall, be prohyhyted that [...]ey shall not in any maner take know [...]edge or iuge vppon heresye. And vp [...]on this hym self addeth vnto it in hi [...] [...]oke of dyuysyon, that he y enquyret [...] of heresy, taketh knoweledge of her [...]y, and yt him selfe sayth [Page] not so alone, but that Summa Ro­sella sayth so to. And hereuppon he concludeth, that yt sholde seme, that all the iustyces of the peace be excommunycate, and al stewardes in letys, & all enquestes to, as many as medle wyth all. For whether in letys they may or not, that he sayth he dowteth, but he sayth yt I say they may, but he telleth not where I say so, nor as I veryly thynke he neuer founde yt in any boke of myne. I saye in myne apologye, fo. 227. that in euery lete they do so, whyther they lawfully so maye do or not thereof speke I no­thynge / all be yt I thynke they may well ynough, bothe wythout offence of the kynges lawe, or parell of c [...]r­synge eyther.

¶For I lytle doute, but that [...]here were of the clergye at the m [...]kynge of the statute mo men then [...]e, yt vn­derstode Summa Rosel [...], as well as thys good man doth, yf Sum­ma [Page cxviii] Rosella were then made and in mennys handes.

¶And I doute not also as lytle, but yt there were at those days in the clergye mo then one, that were of coun­sayle in the makynge of the statute, that vnderstode the chapyter vt in­quisitionis, as wel as this mam doth, and as well as he that made Sūma Rosella to. And that they well vn­derstode that the sayde chapyter ment of suche inquysytours, and suche inquysycyons, as they make that are in the corps of the lawe called Inquisitores heretice prauita­tis / of whyche there are in some places specyall offycers to enquyre, procede, and do therin as thordynaryes do: and ment not of such inquyrours and suche inquysycyons, as do none other wise inquyre, but onely by way of informacyon to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes knowledge.

¶For as for the minour of this good mannys argumēt, that he that enqnyreth [Page] of heresye, taketh knowledge of heresye, so dothe euery denouncer, euery accuser, and in a maner euery wytnesse to, take vppon theym knowledge of heresye in some maner wise: for they take vppon theym as they well maye that thys thynge or that thynge is heresye. But thys is not the knowlege that the law forbede [...]h: but the knowledge that we call hol­dynge ple vpon yt, whyche our inquysycyons do not: but onely serue to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes handes, whyche ellys sholde peraduenture not haue herde therof.

¶And for thys cause, to be sure that by these inquysycyons no man shold fall in daunger of any examynacyon yt was substancially prouyded in the sayde statute, yt thynquistcyō and the endyghtemēt of heresye, shold serue the ordynarye nothynge to the proce­dynge in the mater: but that he shold begynne hys processe agaynste the [Page cxix] partye a freshe, wythoute layenge that endyghtement vnto hys charge.

¶And therfore where as this good man, by the hygh authorite of Sūma Rosella denounceth here al the iustyces of peace accursed. I dare be bold by the hyghe authoryte of Summa Angelica to denounce them all assoy­led agayne. And therfore where as this good man wenynge that he had well wonne hys spurrys in thys poynte tryumpheth vppon me and say [...]th.

And to thy [...] lawe mayster More an [...]wereth not, But passeth yt [...]uer, as a thynge that [...] yt semeth he lyt [...]e regardeth / but onely that he sayth, that the lawes of thys realme, and of holy chyrche in here­syes maye well stande to gether, for oughte that he seeth: And yet yt appereth, that vppon thys lawe they do not agree nor stande to gether. And therfore me thynketh yt wol [...]e not be so lyghtly passed [...]ue [...] as mayster More doth passe yt ouer. For yt is a dangerous thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche.

¶There were two causes for whyche I answered hym not / one a generall cause, concernynge all hys maters of lawes of the chyrche, wherin [Page] he fyndeth fautes, of whych I shall speke afterwarde. A nother specyall cause there was concernynge thys excōmunycacyon. And that was that me thought & yet thinke, that he spake therin so chyldyshely that I was a shamed on his byhalfe to medle with yt / and to make open hys chyldyshe handlynge therof.

¶But nowe syth I se hym compte for so great a conqueste, that he put me to sylence therin, what purpose can he dyuyse for whyche I sholde haue answered any thynge to that poynt? had I made any professyon to proue euery worde wronge that he sayd in all hys hoke? he knoweth that I sayde not that I wolde medle, but wyth those certayne thynges that I there speke of.

¶But now suppose that there were in that law such faute as he allegeth what could myne answere amēde the mater, or his boke of diuisyon either? [Page cxx] If men were accursed as he mysse taketh it, could my boke or his boke take away the curse? No, but we may put the parlyament in mynde to make a lawe. His boke alone is as able to put theym in remembraunce therof as hys and myne to gether. And yet for that poynte neyther nedeth myne nor hys neyther. For the parlyament hath made all redy a lawe for these inquysycyons. Whych yf thy myght lawfully make in such forme as they haue (as I am sure they myght) thē am I sure yt they fall not in excōmunycacyon for it. Now if they myghte not laufully make it, & therby fel ther in, what could the parlyamēt farther adde vnto it, that might deliuer them of yt? And therfore I can not in good fayth se to what purpose he wrote of that poynte hym selfe.

¶No but thys lawe is one great cause of dyuisyon betwene the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye. That [Page] wolde I very fayne wyt howe. For temporall men be not I wote well so farre ouersene, as to be angry wyth the spyrytual men here now, for that lawe that a pope made at Rome ere they were borne. And the spyrytuall men haue also as lytle cause agayn of any grudge agaynst the temporaltye for the mater. And therfore why he sholde put yt in hys boke of dyuy­syon, for a cause of diuisyon I can dyuyse no reason. Foras for that, that he wolde shold seme a cause here, is to vnresonable where he sayth.

As long a [...] that law siddeth so vnrepelled / s [...]me prestes that se yt, wyll saye that they that do agaynste yt / be accursed: and so may lyghtly fall the [...]by into a wrongfull and vntr [...]w iudgement / whych though yt be no great offence, oneles yt be of pryde / by dy­spysynge of the temporall power in that behalfe, yet yt wolde be eschewed. And also yf they that be so noysed to be accursed / here of yt, they wyll be dyscō tented. And so grudges and varya [...]nces maye ryse and encrease by occasyon of yt.

¶Thys is a very colde tale, & as dede as euer was dore nayle. For be­fore hym selfe broughte in thys babelynge [Page cxxi] of his owne about that lawe / (whych babelyng is yet) as I haue shewed you) to no purpose at all) I neuer herd any mā talke any such worde of that lawe in my dayes, nor in good fayeth no more I wene dyd he neyther.

¶ Nor I dare saye he hereth no where yet any prestes saye, that the iustyces of the peace be accursed for enquyrynge agaynste heresyes / none I dare saye but suche prestes as be heretyques. And therfore thys whole tale of his, saue for the malice that yt meaneth / ys euyn a very try­ [...]lynge.

¶For as for ye mocyō yt he maketh so often to haue that lawe repelled, by­cause yt is he sayth agaynst the law­es of the realme: excepte he mokke I wote nere what he meaneth. For yf the realme here may repell yt: thē by yt the law is here made to the cōtrarye (yf yt were contrary as yt is not) [Page] yt is repelled all redy. And yf he thynke that the realme here can not re [...]ell yt / thenne wereto wryteth he and prenteth that pyece in his boke of dyuysyon, as a thynge for whyche the temporaltye & the spyrytualty of thys realme sholde fall in varyau [...]ce for, where neyther the makynge nor the repellynge lyeth in neyther no­ther of theyr handes.

¶But surely the repellyng though yt be the thyng that is spokē of, is not yet the thynge yt ys ment in thys ma­ter as yt aypereth in these wordes.

And therfore me thynketh yt wolde not be so lyghtly pa [...]sed ouer as mayster More doth passe yt ouer. For yt is a daungero [...]s thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche. And yf yt be sayde, that the sayde lawe ys voyde, bycause the chyrche hadde no authoryte to make yt: And that yt is therfore not to be fered. And I wyll yet say therto, that though yt were voyde / that yet as longe yt standeth so not repelled, yt were good to eschewe it, and not to fal wylfully into the daūger of yt: and therfore yt were better to repelle yt then to lette yt stande styll, and rather do hurte then good.

¶Here you may se good readers, that where as otherwyse to repell [Page cxxii] that law then it is repelled, lyeth not in oure handes yf oure lawe were a­gaynste yt / and where as of [...]routhe yt nedeth no repellynge at all, but the lawe of the realme standeth ther wyth well ynough, he maketh as though al [...]he iustyces of pea [...]e were accursed there by, as ofte as they geue the iuryes in charge to enquyre of heresye: therfore leste they sholde wylfully fal into the censures of the chyrhe, wherof as he sayth the leste is a daūgerouse thyng, ye may playnly se that these wyly shrewes whych abuse his labour, meane in all thys mater nothynge ellys, but that they wolde not haue heresyes enquyred of. And yet they nede not so greatly to care therfore, for any great thingꝭ yt by such inquisyciōs are in heresyes presented. But yet thus declare they theyr good wylles these wyly shrewes yt thus deceyue this good symple soule, & set hym so euyll a worke.

¶If he fere so myche ye cēsures of [Page] [...]h [...] chyrche as he maketh for, and vnd [...]rstande and byleue Summa Rosella so surely as he pretendyth: yt hadde ben better for hym to examyne well hys boke of dyuysyon, and thys his seconde boke also by the tytles of Summa Rosella, and se well why ther hym selfe varye not fro Sūma Rosella, & be by ye sentēce of Sūma Rosella fallen in the censures of the chyrche hym selfe, by some such maner of wrytynge as hys sayde bokes haue.

¶But now cometh this good pacifi [...]r forthe wyth a goodly pyece & to declare hym selfe indyfferent, and to shewe also a great ouersyght vsed vppon my parte: thus the good man Some say sayth.

And therfore yt semeth ryght expedyent that the sayd law be repelled. And in lyke wyse it were good to repelle all suche lawes spyrytuall, as be made cō trarye to the kynges lawes and the custome of the realme. And yf yt be sayde, that yt were good al­so / that suche statutes and lawes / as be made and vsed by the temporall power to the grefe of the people were also reformed / and that yf I were indyffe­rente / [Page] I wolde make some mocyon so to h [...]u [...] yt: And so it semeth maysier More doth parte [...] [...] that I ought to haue done, & to haue founde [...] defaute in the temporall lawe as in the spyry [...]ll lawe: How be yt bycause be wolde beare n [...] [...] of the temporall lawe in that mocyon, yt s [...]m [...]th that he somwhat mytygateth hys sentence [...] and sayeth / that yf I do so / and that then I [...] theym / that ys saye, the temporall lawes and [...]ynde defautes at them / as trewly as I do at these [...] that is to saye at the spyrytuall lawes: that then I shulde make two lyes for one / and yet as I suppose, I haue assigned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawe, whyche mayster More can not tell howe they shul [...] [...]e excused.

¶As to hys repellynge, I se as I haue sayde no substaunce in hys wordes. For we repell theym as farre as I se we can, when we kepe theym not but make our owne lawes to the cōtrary. And therfore as farre as I se all that he speketh of these repellynges, saue onely for settynge forth of his dyuysyon, is ellys but a very vayne tale.

¶But nowe where he sayeth that I wolde haue hym and seme to moue hym / to fynde fautes in the temporall lawe to. I wote nere [Page] whether his word [...] haue herein more falsed or more foly / but surely they haue both twayn, and eyther the tone or the tother double.

¶For fyrste euery man maye se by his owne wordes euen here, that I moue hym not to vse as for indyffe­r [...]ncye, to fynde fautes in the tempo­rall lawes as he hath done wyth the spyrytuall lawes, when hym selfe here sheweth that I saye that yf he so dyd, he sholde make double lyes. This sheweth that he vseth in thys saynge playne and open vntrouthe. And syth hys owne vntrouthe appe­reth vppon hys owne shewynge, thys sheweth also, that he vseth o­pen foly.

¶And where he sayeth that he hath assygned some defautes in the spyry­tuall lawes, which I can not tel how they sholde be excused: I answere hym agayne, that vnto all lawes, or all maters that he lyste to bable of, [Page cxxiiii] am I not bounde to medle wyth / but of these spyrytuall [...] lawes that were made for the repressyng of heresyes, wyth whyche oure temporall lawes are also conformable and concurraūt wyth whyche [...] thys good wyse man for the ease of heretyques, hath now founden suche fautes as a wyse man maye be ashamed to speke of, I haue clerely declared that they nede not to be excused / but that for the fyn­dynge of suche fautes hys foly to be myche accused. Thys haue I proued so playne, that he can fynde no great cause of glorye when he lo­kath backe vppon yt.

¶But nowe to thentent you maye good readers se, that eyther this man is not so symple in hym selfe as he semeth, or els that some wyly shrewes shamefully do deceyue hym: I be­seche you consyder a lytle eyther the foly or the crafte that the man vseth here.

[Page]¶He hathe brought you forth wordes of myne whych I speke he sayth of the lawes, where as of trouthe I speke theym not of the lawes at all, as your selfe shall well se. For though he dyssemble the place by­cause he wolde not haue you reade yt: yet haue I soughte yt oute for you, in the .99. lefe of myne Apolo­gye / and there lo these are my wordes.

And thys pacyfyer aggreueth (as myche as in hym lyeth) the clergye of Englande, for vse of the lawes not made by theym selfe, but be commen lawes of all chrystendome.

If he wyll saye that he blameth but theyr abuses therof, the trouth appe­reth in some place otherwyse in hys boke. And yet syth he proueth that poynte but by a some saye / he myght wyth the same fygure lay lyke fautes in the temporaltye concernynge the lawes of thys realme, and proue yt in lyke wyse wyth a greate Somme [Page cxxv] say to. And therin he sheweth him self not indyfferent whan he bryngeth in the tone and leueth the tother out. And on the tother syde, yf he brynge in the tother to / than shall he make two fawtes for one. For yf he handle them as truely as he handeleth these / than shall he make two lyes for one

¶Lo good readers consyder here I bysech you the maner of thys good man. To the fyrst piece of these wordes of myne, in whyche case is also the law that we be now in hand with al, vt inquisitiōis, wherwith he wold in hys boke of dyuysyon aggreue the clergye of this realme whych neuer made the lawe: he answereth not in all his boke one word. And yet in his such maner of aggreuynge he vseth a very synfull, and in hys not answe­rynge, a very shamfull waye.

¶Than in the remanaunt you se good readers your self, that I speke not of the lawes. For whan I saye [Page] thus, yf he wyll say that he blameth but theyr abuses therof: yet syth he proueth that point but by a Somsay / he myghte by the same fygure laye lyke fawtes in the temporalty to, concernyng the lawes of this realme: is it not here playne that I laye blame in hym, for hys bylying of the myni­stres of the spyrytuall lawes vnder a figure of Somsay, as though they abused the spyrytuall lawes in myssehandelynge of heretykes wherof I speke more aft [...]r. And I saye that by a lyke figure of Some say, he might dyffame all the temporall mynis [...]res to, and brynge theym in grudge and obloquy of the peple wyth lyke lyes of abusyng the temporal lawes to.

¶Now consyder good readers, ey [...]ther how fa [...]sely thys honest man hath hym self, or ellys how folyshly he hath suffered false shrewys, to make hym turne and chaunge the sentence of my wordes fro the men to [Page cxxvi] the lawes, to brynge in his maters vppon, and say that I moue hym to fynde fawtes in the temporal lawes and put them in pr [...]n [...]e abrode as he doth in the tother, wh [...]re as you play­nely se I speke not of the lawes but of the mynis [...]res / nor yet aduise hym to vse suche fasshyon wyth the tem­pora [...]l mynystres neyther, leste he make two lyes for one.

¶Is not now thys chaunge of my sentence that he maketh here a very shamelesse dealynge, eyther of hym selfe, or of some shrewed counsayle of hys?

¶And now knytteth he to this han­delynge the remanaunt of the sayde .xix. chapyter, and sheweth that he speketh fyrste of the spyrytua [...]tye, bycause the causes of the dyuysyon specyally be growen by theym / and layeth forthe a sorte of gryefes, some parte very tryfles, and some parte remedyed before hys booke of [Page] dyuisyon made, and some parte very folyshe, & some part for all hys some sayes vndowtedly very false.

¶He hath there two leuys in the ende of that chapiter which any wyse man that readeth them, shall I sup­pose, iudge a very dreamynge tale. And therin it semeth that as he hath bygonne wyth the spyrytuall lawes, so he wyll after procede in the tēpo­ral lawes to. And fayne wold ye man make me so fonde as to be hys felow therin / and saith yf I know any such made, as the perleament had none authoryte to make, or wheruppon the people ha [...]e i [...]ste cause to complayn: it w [...]r [...] we [...] done that I shold shew them. And so he thynketh verily that cher [...]t [...] shold cōpell me to do, seynge that I am he sayth lerned in ye lawes of the realm [...].

Veryly yf I knewe any suche: yet wold I not folow neyther this good mannys holy exhortacyon, nor hys [Page cxxvii] godly sample neyther, to do in ye tone as he hath done in the tother, but yf I lyked hys doynge a lytell better than I do.

¶And yf I be lerned in the tempo­rall lawes, the lesse wyll I folowe his counsayle. For the better that I were lerned in them the lesse wolde I wene it wold become me, to prent and put abrode amonge the people, a slawnderous boke of them to shame theym.

¶And vnto this point good readers I haue answered and shewed my mynde in myne apologye byfore, wherto thys man geueth a defe eare alwaye. And here, vppon a soughte occasyon with a fonde wyly chaunge of my wordes, exhorteth me to the thynge to whyche I made answere all redy. And what I before sayde therin, that he dyssembleth, and sayth not one worde therto. But in myne apologye good readers, the .159. lefe [Page] these were in this poynt my wordes.

Hys other murmours & grudges that he sayth he can not now reherse, he reherseth after many of thē in his other chapyters / whych I wyll passe ouer vntowched, bothe for that the more parte of them be suche as euery wyse man wyll I suppose answere them hym selfe in the redynge, and satysfye hys owne mynde wythout any nede of myne helpe therin / & for that some thynges are there also therin, that are very well sayed / and some al­so that be they good or badde, I pur­pose not to medle myche wythall, as are the thynges yt towche any lawes or statutes all redy made, be they of the chyrche or of the realme, defende them I am cōtent to do, yf I thynke them good. But on the tother syde yf I thinke them nought / albe it that in place & tyme cōuenyent I wold geue myn aduice & coūsaile to the chaūge, yet to putte out bookes in wrytynge abrode amonge the people agaynste theym, that wolde I neyther do my [Page cxxviii] selfe, nor in the so doynge commende any man that doth. For yf the lawe were suche as were so farre agaynste the lawe of god, that it were not pos­syble to stande wyth mannes salua­cyon / than in that case the secrete ad­uyse and coūsayle may become euery man / but the open reprofe and redar­gucyon therof may not in my mynd well become those that are no more spyrytuall than I. And sure yf the lawes maye be kepte and obserued without perell of soule, though the chaunge myght be to the better: yet out of tyme & place cōuenyent to put the defawtes of the lawes abrode a­monge the people in wrytynge, and wythout any suretye of the chaunge geue the people occasyon to haue the lawes in derysyon, vnder which they lyue, namely syth he yt so shall vse to do, may somtime missetake the mater & thynke the thyng not good wherof ye chaūge wold be worse: y way wyll I not as thus aduised neither vse my self nor aduise no frend of myne to do [Page] And therfore I wyll as I saye leue some thinges of his boke vntouched, whyther he say well or euyll.

¶Here you se good readers myne answere to thys poynt, concernynge the fyndynge of fawtes and puttyng theym abrode in prente: whiche an­swere he dyssembleth, & agayne pro­uoketh me to the same, as though he had neuer herd it / whyche answere I wyll therfore be had as repeted in euery place where he prouoketh me hereafter to the same poynte. And thus you se good reders, that where as he hath not in any one chapyter of hys, brought forth any reason yet: yet hath he brought forth leste in this hys .xviii. in whiche he bosteth moost. For by thys hath he playnely decla­red, that he neyther vnderstandeth the law vt inquisitionis, that he alledgeth, nor so mych as the pore summe called Summa rosella neyther. For that good man yt made it, vndowtedly [Page cxxix] neuer ment of suche inquisicions as ours are, of whyche maner he hadde happely neuer knowen none. And as for the law, they very fyrste wordes therof to hym that vnderstondeth them and consydereth them well, suffycyently do declare, that that lawe forbedeth laye men to medyll wyth suche maner knowledge of heresye, as sholde be a let and impedement to the ordynaryes, or other the spyry­tuall inquisitours / & not suche know­ledge as we take by our inquisicyōs, that onely serue to helpe the toth [...]r forth & bringe ye mater to theyr hādes.

¶And ther [...]ore syth I se well, that this man in the laten lawes and Sū ­mes, hath so lytell vnderstan­dynge: I shall be the more content in his lawes & his Sūmys, so mych the lesse to dyspute or medle wyth hym.

The .xix. chapyter.

IN his .xix. chapite [...] he declareth what he meaneth by confederacyes of the spyrytualtye / and sayth he meneth cō federacyes wher­by spyrytuall men pretende to mayn­tayne some suche lawes of the chyr­che, and some such constytucyōs prouincyall, as are agaynste the kynges lawes and the olde customes of the realme / and putteth for a sample, the puttyng of [...]restes to answere afore temporall iudges, & the statute made de Silua cedua, and the statute of Mortuaryes. ¶As for cōuētyng of prestꝭ before seculare iudges, trouth it is ye one tyme thoccasyō of a sermō made the mater come in cōmunicatiō before the kyngꝭ hyghnes. But neyther any tymes synnys nor many ye­rys afore, I neuer herd yt there was any bysynes about it. And yet was ye [Page cxxx] mater ceaced long before any worde sprange of this great generall dyui­sion, that his boke maketh as though there were such, in a maner generall thorow the whole realme.

¶And diuerse statutes haue there sinnys ben made, cōcernynge ye same poynt. And many prestes conuented as they were wont to be byfore / and no by synes made by the spyrytualty therfore yt I here of, nor I trow him self neither. ¶And in lyke wise men cutte downe theyr woodꝭ euery yere, in one place & other of the realme / & eyther is there not asked the tyt [...]e a­g [...]ynst the statute / or yf some person wold with good wyll gete it, & ther­fore aske yt, he geteth yt not yet in dede. ¶For where he sayeth that yf I wolde remember my self well, how often the cōstitucion prouincial, made agaynste the statute de Silua cedua, hath ben put in execucyon of late dayes, to the gryefe of many lay [Page] men: I wolde not haue sayde so ge­nerally that there is not any one con­stytucyon prouinciall that he speketh of, to any mannes gryefe or grudge put in execucyon in the tyme of any of the prelates that are now lyuyng / and affermeth that the same constytucyon hath of late in the tyme of dy­uerse of the same prelates that nowe be, ben put in execucion, to the gryefe and grudge of many persons within this realm. Fyrst as towchyng myne owne rememberaunce: in good faith I can not remember one. And as to his owne remembraūce, vpon which he affermeth it to haue ben done so la­tely, to the grudge and gryefe of so many: he shall perdon me though I byleue hym not tyll he proue it, or at the leste wyse name them that haue had the wynnyng, & them also yt haue borne the losse / so that I may my self proue whyther it be trewe or not. For excepte he do the tone, ellys haue I [Page cxxxi] good cause in ye meane whyle, in this poynte to gyue no greate credence to hym.

¶For fyrste I can scantely byleue that vppon the persons bare worde, for allegacion of the cōstytucyon prouyncyall, his paryshen wold let hym haue it. And yf there happed any man that wold: yet am I sure they were so few, that it were so dowble foly to lay that for any cause of diui­syon, which were done bothe but by a few, and also not without the parties wyll, and rather of his own pryuate deuociō, thā for any fere of cōpulsiō.

¶Now if the person wold take it of hys parishon byforce: I se the comen experyence therin suche: that I dare boldely saye the whole paryshe wold not suffre hym. And yet yf it were ta­ken in dede: neyther sholde the per­son enioy ye profyte, nor the paryshen bere the losse / but sholde at the kyngꝭ comen lawe recouer a ryght large amendes. [Page] For well ye wote his dāma­ges sholde be tared hym, not by .xii. prestes, but by .xii. temporall men, & his costes by the kynges iudges that are no prestes neyther.

¶Now yf this man wyll saye, that many of the personys haue in ye tyme of the prelates that now be lyuynge, or that were lyuyng at the tyme that hym selfe wrote those wordes, reco­uered in any of the spyrituall courtꝭ, the tythe of such woodꝭ, agaynst the statute, by force of that prouinciall cō stytucyō: I wyll se this man proue it ere I byleue hym in it. For the dayn­geour of that suit may be p [...]raduen­ture more, than I suppose the person wyll put in perell for his tythes. And also the paryshen maye soone stoppe the suit in the begynnyng by ye kyngꝭ prohybycyō / wherby ye kyngꝭ iudges shall se whyther the person sewe for suche tythes or not, & wyll not therin suffre hym to procede.

[Page cxxxii]¶And therfore tyll thys good man make me better proues of this mater than hys owne bare sayenge: he ge­ueth me no cause agaynste so many lettes to the cōtrary, therin to byleue his word. But I durst wel warraūt it, that if he come ones to the namyng of the partyes, so that the specialtyes of the maters may be sought out and made appere: you shall surely fynd it vntrewe.

¶Now than to mayntayne withall hys great word of confederacyes: he bryngeth forth that some prestes say styll, that those tythes & mortuary [...]s also, for al the statutes be theyr dew­tyes styl, & that they which pay them not be accursed. I haue espyed thys good man is a man of sadnesse, & no great gamener. For yf he were he wolde neuer be angry for an angry worde, spoken by a man that is on the lesynge syde. Hit is an olde cour­tesye at the cardys perdye, to lette [Page] the leser haue hys wordes. And in good fayth in thys mater I here no suche talkyng at all. And veryly this deuyce of his to put thys for a cause of diuisyon, is in my mynde a very chyldyshe thynge.

¶But thanne goeth he ferther that prestes make partycular confedera­cyes, to mayntayne obytys, & prestes wages, and to haue more at byryal­les than they haue bene wont to haue or ellys to shewe them selfe not con­tent, that is to saye to aske more than they can gete / and bycause they can not gete it, shewe them selfe not con­tent / that is to wytte lowre and loke angerly, and say they be not pleased. Be not these hygh maters and mete for that heyghnouse name of confe­deracyes

¶And yet goeth he ferther wyth an other heyghnouse confederacy, that yf a preste haue a besynesse to do in some countreys: other prestes wyll as it is sayde so confeder whyth hom at arbytr [...]nentes and other metynges / or ellys [Page cxxxiii] make theym suche frendes pryuyly, that the tother partye though he be of right good substaunce a haue also good ryghte / yet shall he sometyme haue mych a do to obtayne yf.

¶Is not here good readers a won­derfull heyghnouse worke, and well worthye ye name of confederacies of the spyrytualte / that but in some countreys, nor there neyther of any cer­tayntye, but as some saye, some prestes in the besynesse of a nother pre­ste, wyll, and yet but somtyme ney­ther at arbytrementes confedere wyth theyre good worde to helpe forthe theyr felowe, or ellys to make hym frendes? Ye and thenne what a myschyefe he sheweth that enseweth therupon? The tother party hath he sayth myche a do to obteyn his ryght and yet that but somtyme neyther. But as for lese his ryght by theyre meanes, he sayeth not that any man dothe. Be not these heyghnouse confederacyes, & thynges mete for thys man to make a boke of diuysyon for? And yet as though he had very well [Page] acquyte hm selfe: he knytteth yt vp wyth these wordes.

And these be some of the confederacyes of pres [...]es that I ment of / and not the gatherynge to gether of the clergye at the conuocacyons.

¶In good fayth I sawe not howe he sholde meane any other thynge, nor that neyther well. For the name of confederacyes taken to an euyll parte as thys man taketh yt, dothe sygnyfye a metynge and gatheryng to gether, and a determynacyō of certayne euyll folke, conspyrynge to gether aboute an euyll thynge to be done, wyth a couenaunt and promyse by eche of theym made vnto other, eche to stande wyth other therin. Nowe where as at conuocacyons good men come to gether to do good, and therfore he coulde not call theym confed [...]racyes as he nowe sayeth he ment not to do: yet I douted some­what whyther he so ment or not, by­cause the conuocacions be at the leste wise comen assēblies to gether, wher [Page cxxxiiii] of he myght hap I thought to geue a good thyng an euyl name. But these maters yt he now speketh of, I could not ymagyne that euer he ment to cal them confederacyes, wherin he ney­ther seeth assemblies, nor can assygne and proue any conspyracy & mutuall ꝓmyse, in assystyng eche other about the procurement of any thynge at all good or bad. For where as he sayth yt these be some of the confederacy [...]s that he ment: I am sure no man douteth but that these be eyther all he cō federacyes that he fyndeth, or ellys at the leste wyse the greatest. And thenne are those that he calleth here partyculare confederacyes, so chyl­dyshe that in good faythe I myche meruayle, that his herte could serue hym for very shame to speke of thē. And thē the tother yt be taketh for generall cōfederacyes / he neither seeth nor assygneth so mych as any assēbly about theym, or promyse or abette­ment to procure and pursue theym. [Page] And therfore though some prestes wold here or there speke of them as theyr owne affeccyon sedeth theym: this is farre fro the nature and name of confederacye.

¶And yet when he hath al to gether done, whyle he proueth nothynge at the vttermoste (though all that he sayeth were as trew as yt is not) but that they wolde fayne haue the tythe of tymber styll, and that they wolde fayne haue the mortuaryes styll, and that some wolde fayne haue greater wages, and some wolde fayne haue more money at the beryalles, then for all theyre fayne wyllynge they can gete / when they wold onely fayn haue yt, and yet in dede gete nought of yt, nor other folke nothynge lese: to make now so great a mater of this and call yt an hyghnouse name of confederacyes, ys as me semeth some­what lyke to hym, that wolde nedes haue an accyon agaynste his neyghbour [Page cxxxv] bycause his neyghbours ho [...]se stode and loked ouer his hedge. For he sayde that he sawe by hys counte­naunce that he wolde haue eaten hys grasse yf he coulde haue goten to yt. For as for that, that the hedge letted hym, was lytle thanke to hym / for hys wyll was neuer the lesse. And thus hys .xix. chapyter you se good readers howe lytle reason is in yt.

The .xx. chapyter.

HIs .xx. chapyter begynnynge in ye lxxvi. lefe, hath so lytle effecte & substaunce in it, and so faintly defendeth his for­mare mater whyche yt pretendeth to defende, that I puroose to make no longe worke aboute yt.

[Page]¶For yf you rede fyrste his wordes as they lye in mine Apology fo. 159 in the seconde syde begynnynge at these wordes, And here me thynketh I myghte saye: ye shal there good readers fynde, that I reherse those wordꝭ of his euyn whole, wyth those wordes in them, which he wold in the begynnynge of this his .xx. chapyter, make men byleue that I had wythdrawen / as though they were wordes of suche substancyall effect, that I wold not haue it appere in my boke that he had wryten so piththely.

¶Afterwarde in a nother place where they be rehersed again fo. 162 then prēter of lykelyhed left them out of ouersyght & hast. And surely they be not of so great weyght, but yt if the authour had hym selfe left them out in his boke of dyuysyon, yt had made lytle mater. And yf he had ouer that left out the whole clause: then hadde he lefte in hys boke one lye the lesse, [Page cxxxvi] and hys boke the better by so myche. For wherby proueth he that the spy­rytuall rulers pretende theym selfe to be so clene and pure, that there ys no defaute in theym, but all in the people alone, and in theym selfe no maner faute at all? Where herde he euer any spyrytuall man saye thys, by the whole spyrytualtye or by any one man therof?

¶They confesse theym selfe to be men and synners. And they confesse and knowledge also, that the very cause of thys chyefe myschyefe that nowe begynneth to make dyuysyon, that ys to wytte the execrable here­syes, whyche myschyefes thys good mannys euyll dyuyses with chaunge of good lawes were lykely to mayntayne, yf men wolde folowe theym: dyd bothe begynne, and ys also sette forthe & auaunced forward, by those vngracyouse folke that are suche a­monge the spyrytualtye, as Iudas was amonge thapostles / & thys not [Page] in thys realme onely, but in othe [...] countreys to. As by frere Luther, and preste Pomerane, Otho the monke, and frere Lambert, frere Huskyn, and Swynglius / & here in Englande Tyndale, frere Barns George Ioy, & some other suche, as with the sede of sedycyouse heresye, haue so wen and set forth dyuysyon.

¶Thys thynge the spyrytualtye bothe knoweth & knowledgeth. And therfore they do not pretende as thys pacifier sayth they do, that there hath ben no faute amonge theym, but all amonge the people. And therfore this good man where he sayeth that I lefte out thre wordes in that clause of his (which yet I did put in indede: hym selfe hadde somwhat amended hys mater with leuyng in of one lye the lesse, yf he had left out the whole clause all to gether.

¶As to that y he sayth I chaunged his wordes in ye ende frō these wordꝭ [Page cxxxvii] the syghte of grace that ys spoken of before wyll not appere, into [...] wordes the syghte of grace tha [...] [...] spoken of byfore, be wyth you no [...] and euer more amen: therin he sayeth very trewe. For syth [...]e was fallen into preachynge, I not onely in the fyrst place rehersed hym as he spake hym self, but afterward also in the seconde place I toke the payne for hym to mende his colla [...]y­on in that poynt, & make yt ende some what more lyke a sermō with a good gracyouse prayour.

Then goeth he forthe, and in the same lefe and the next folowyng, he maketh a suspicyouse mater, and can not tell what mynde I was of, in chaungynge his worde spyrytuall rulers, into this worde prelates. But loke good readers vppon the place, and you shal se that I dyd yt of good cause. For I do not there saye that he sayth prelates, but I saye there [Page] that peraduenture he wyll saye so. And also besydes this that there y [...] no very great dyfference betwene these wordes, the prelates and the spirytuall rulers: the chaūge from this worde the spyrytuall rulers into this worde prelates, semed me the more mete and more proper for the mater that the pacifier speketh in that place, where he speketh of au [...]horite yt they pretende, and obedyence that they clayme.

¶Howe be it rather then I wolde geue any cause of dyuysyon agaynst me, to hym that vseth to make great dyuysyons vpon smale groundes / I shall be content to geue hym his own worde agayne. And therfore I pray you good readers euery of you mēde your bokis / & in the stede of prelates in that place, put in spyrytual rulers. And whē you so haue done, ye chaūge shal for the mater not be very great / & yet so myche as it shalbe, shal more [Page cxxxviii] serue me then hym.

¶ But yet to make me sory, yt euer I was so farre ouersene, as to take a way his gay golden worde of spyry­tuall rulers from hym, he begynneth as it were with a great thret [...] sayth.

What mays [...]er More meaneth to chaunge these wordes spyrytuall rulers into prelates, I can not te [...]l. But nowe by occasyon of the wordes that mayster More hathe spoken, I wyll saye farthe [...] in the mater then I hadde thought to haue done.

¶Howe happy was I so, yt I had not the grace to let his owne worde stande. For now wyll he saye farther in the mater thenne euer he hadde thoughte to haue done. And that ys (sayth he) this.

That I thynke veryly that if so great an ouersyght fell in to prelates and spyrytuall rulers, that they wolde take vppon them to preache herely, that they wolde that the people sholde byleue theym therin / and to take yt to be catholycall that they preached. For who wolde preache any thynge but suche as they wold haue theyr audyence byleue.

¶Byleue me good readers, that thys man weneth he sayeth well fa­uoredly in this poīt / wherin he taketh such pleasure, that afterwarde fo. [Page] lxxix. he falle [...]h into the same agayn, and sayth thus.

Mays [...]er More go [...]th about onely to proue, that all my tale ys los [...]e, bycause prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they preache heresye as he taketh yt that I shol [...]e saye they do. And yet I sayde not so in dede. And yf I dyd say so / I sayde but trewly. For yf they dyd preache heresye, yt is certayne that they wolde loke to be byleued as I haue sayde byfore / ye and yf they wolde preache and saye that yf they preched heresye, that they wolde the people sholde not byleue theym: yet yf they dyd after preache heresye in dede, they wolde loke that the people sholde by­leue theym. For they wolde saye that they were no heresyes that they preached. For who wyll confesse that he preacheth heresye.

¶Nowe good readers here haue I ioyned you to gether this good mānis gaye wordes in two places, wherin I perceyue he pleaseth hym selfe ryght well. But to thentent that you may se whether he haue so good cause as he weneth, consyder well his wordes and myne byfore, wheruppon he cometh to thys poynte. For he ma­keth as though, I wythoute occa­syon geuyn of his wordes, hadde writen that the prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they wolde preache heresye. [Page cxxxix] Wherin whether he saye trew or not you shall se by hys owne wor­des, whyche are these.

The lyghte of grace wyll not come, as longe as the spirytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyate of god, that the people are bound to obay them & to accepte all that they do and teache, wythoute argumētes resys [...]ence or grudgynge.

¶Nowe good readers fyrst consy­der well here in these wordes of his, what wysedome the man hath shew­ed, in makynge suche a mumblynge of chaungyng spyrytuall rulers into prelates. For when he saith here, that the spyrytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hyghe: what doute is there but though he meane other rulers mo besyde whom he calleth no prelates: yet he meaneth pre­lates to / ye & prelates specyally to. And then when he sayth that the pre­lates & the other spyritual rul [...]rs pretende this or that: may I not wel say that he sayth ye prelates pretend this? yes veryly that I may. And yet in so [Page] chaūgyng his worde: I chaunge it to his aduantage & not vnto myne, in yt I make his odyouse sayenge myche lesse, and nothynge more. And thus fyrste you se good readers this man­nys myche ouersyght in fyndynge of that faute.

¶Now consyder farther good rea­ders yt he sayth in those wordes, not that the spyrytual rulers, yt is to saye both the prelates & all the remanaunt to, pretend theyr authorite to be hygh and so immedyatly deryued fro god, that the peple are boūd to obey them in this thynge or that thynge, one, or twayne, or tenne, or twentye / but vtterly to accept and obaye not onely all theyr teachyngꝭ, but also al theyr doynges to / and neyther argue resyst nor grudge at any maner thyng, that they wold eyther teache or do.

¶This generall thynge he saythe. And therfore though I deale as you se so fauorably with him in my .xxvii [Page cxl] chapyter of myn Apologye, as to dyuyde ye mater, & aske whether he mēt yt by theyr whole authoryte or part: I myght well vpon these wordes of his haue taken it, yt he had very shamfully belyed them, & had sayde yt they had pretēded to haue theyr whole au­thoryte īmediatly of god euery whit. For if I wold so haue sayd / his generall wordes wolde well haue war­raunted myne. Also syth his saynge is so generall, and extendeth vtterly not onely to all theyr techyngꝭ, but also to al theyr doynges to / & sayth that they pretend, yt by goddes immediate ordynaunce the people shold accepte all to gether, both al y euer they say, & all yt euer they do: by how many maner thynges myght I haue confuted his saynge, and haue proued it false?

¶But yet his sainge beyng such, I toke but one thyng / & yt was such, as for ye mater yt we both specially spake of was next at hand. And therfore I [Page] sayde / that they pretende not to haue suche an authory [...]e that men sholde obay th [...]ym in all thynges / for they ptēde not to haue authorite to bynde m [...]n to byleue and obay them, yf they wolde preache heresyes. But they p [...]ynly professe that if they so wold men shold not byleue theym nor obey them therin.

¶Here you se that where he sayth that he ment not that the prelates wo [...]de preache heresye: he speketh all besyde the purpose. For I sayde not that he eyther so sayd or so ment. But I sayde and yet saye, that in those wordes he sayde, that yf they wolde preche heresies, they do now pretende, that by the authorite why­che god hathe geuyn theym, the peo­ple were thenne therin bounden to beleue and obey theym.

And in hys so sayenge I there sayde and yet saye, that he sayth very farre vntrewe, and that they pretende yt [Page cxli] not, but playnely pretēde the cōtrary. And thus in this poynt that he ma­keth a mater without grownd or cau­se, and that hym selfe with his owne wordes gaue me good occasyon to wryte the thynge that I wrote: this you se good readers proued very playne.

¶But now consyder his other wordes, wherin he lyketh hym selfe so well, and weneth yt he proueth yt the spyrytuall rulers of the realme pre­tende, that yf they wolde preche he­resye, the people were by goddes or­dynaunce bounden to byleue & obey them therin, bycause they wold than say yt it were none heresye. In thys poynt hys reasonynge hath I pro­myse you a lytell more subtylte than substaunce / and yet but symple sub­tylte neyther.

¶Fyrste as for his case, that yf all the spyrytuall rulers wolde preche heresye: yf he had ment of the spyri­tuall [Page] rulers of all chrystendome, I wolde haue admitted his case none other wyse, but as men put & admitte a case impossyble, to se what myghte ensew theron yf it were possyble / as saynt Poule putteth the case that yf an angel came from heuyn & preched a cōtrary gospell, yet the same angel shold not be byleued. But now syth he putteth it but by the spyrytuall ru­lers of one realme, I admytte the case as possyble / but yet as suche a case, as I truste in god this good man shall se the skye fall fyrste and cache larkes ere it happen, though it maye be lykely inough to happen in some one or twayne, or some fewe [...] a­gaynste whome the remanaunt shall preche and teche the trouth.

¶But now sayth thys good man thus. If it so happened in them all: than wolde they all pretende, that by theyr authoryte gyuen them of god, the people were bounden therin to [Page cxlii] byleue and obaye theym. For they wolde than saye that theyr heresyes were none heresyes.

¶I am content lo to graunte hym all thys / and I aske hym now what than? For all thys good readers pro­ueth (you se very well) no more, but that yf that case happened that they also preched, they wolde thanne al so pretende. But all this proueth neuer a whyt, that the spyrytuall rulers eyther now do, or at any tyme haue done, pretended theyr authoryte such. Now consyder than for what pur­pose he speketh of suche pretendyng. He sayeth (you wote well) theyr pretendynge of theyr authoryte to be so great, that they people shold obay them without argument, grudge, or cōtradiccyon in all yt euer they eyther say or do. This he layth I say for so sore a cause of this diuision, which he maketh in his boke, yt he sayth the lyght of grace wyl not come to ceace it, tyll they ceace so to pretende.

[Page]¶And therfore good readers syth thys is the thynge yt he sayth, and the purpose that he sayth it for, makyng it a cause of dyuysyon present: how can he maynteyne hys sayenge with a case fayned, wherby it may be that they wyll so pretende hereafter / where as euer hytherto hym selfe sayth not naye, but yt they bothe haue pretended and yet pretende the con­trary? Can he mayntayne yt the tem­poralty is at dyuision wyth the spyrytualty now all redy, bycause it maye peraduenture happe here after by a farre fet possybylyte, that they maye than, no man woteth whan, pretende peraduenture a thynge, wherof they presentely pretende the contrary / and protest also that yf the case sholde so mysse happe hereafter, they desyre now for than yt no man sholde therin than byleue theym? Saw you euer good read [...]rs any man with suche a symple subtyltye, caste all his mater [Page cxliii] in the dust so shamfully?

Now where he sayth to mayn [...]ayne hys mater here withall, that it is not to suppose ye spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende that such authoryte as they haue of the graūte of prynces, is im­medyately of god: I say that therin he sayth trouth, and yt I suppose that they wyll not. But yet let hym selfe loke wel in his own boke of diuisiō, & he shall fynde that hym selfe sayth y contrary there, of that he now sayth here / and sheweth some thynges whiche he bothe sayth that they haue but by the meane of prynces and the good mynde of the people, and yet sayth also that they pretende to haue the same thynges immedyately of god. As for ensample both theyr a [...] ­thoryte to haue ye tenth part for tythe, and the thynge [...] whyche they enioy by the name of ye lybertyes of ye chyrch, wherby theyr persons be in many thynges pryuyledged in this realme [Page] byfore ye persō of a say man. These thynges hym selfe sayth yt they haue but by a meane and not immedyately of god. And yet he sayth in this same xx. chapyter, that the thynges whych they call the lybertyes of the chyrch, they pretende to haue immedyately of god / and for all that he sayth now that it is not to suppose yt they wyll pretende so. And thus you maye se good readers, that for the defence of thys place, he is dreuyn to a shrewde narow streyte, whan to defende one fawte he is fayne to make twayne.

¶Now where as he saith I myght haue satysfyed my selfe wel inough, and yt the letter of his wordes were playne: you se that in the rehersynge agayne of hys own wordes fo. lxxx, he is fayne to suppresse & stele away these hys owne generall wordes, all that they do or teche, to make hys wordꝭ seme playne. For as you se, they standynge styll, his wordes are playne [Page cxliiii] agaynst hym. For hym selfe now cō ­fesseth yt they pretende not to do by authoryte immedyate fro god, suche thynges as they do by authoryte gy­uen them by prynces.

¶But bycause I wold fayne fully satysfye hym: I shall now shew you yt with his new declaringe yt his wor­des were well inough, he hath made his mater out of all measure wurse.

¶For now rede his wordes agayne fo. lxxx. & th [...]re you shall se yt he saith yt he meneth onely of such authoryte as ye spirituall rulers pret [...] ̄de to haue imm [...]diately of god. And yet after he declareth it ferther & better on ye se­cunde syde of the same lefe in ye .xiiii. lyne, yt he meneth onely such authoryte, not as they pretēde to haue, but as they haue in dede īmediately of god. And to thentent men myghte se yt he meneth not of authorite falsely pretē ded, but truely had īmediatly of god, he putteth for ye sample theyr autho­ryte in ministracyō of ye sacramētes.

[Page]¶Thys is hys owne exposicyon of his owne wordes, whyche he wolde haue taken for so playne, that he is angry with me that I could not spye it, and so satysfye my selfe before.

¶Well go to now: let vs reherse his owne wordes agayne as hym selfe for his owne aduauntage folio .lxxx. reherseth them, & let vs plant in hys owne exposiciō with thē, to make his sentēce ye more clere / & thā shal we se to what good conclusion he bryngeth all in conclusyon. For than commeth hys whole tale to thys.

As longe as the spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende, that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god, in suche thynges as they haue theyr authoryte immedyately of god in dede, (as in the minystracyon of the sacramentes and such other thyn­ges lyke) that the people are bounden to obay them wythout argument or resystence: so long the lyght of grace wyll not appere.

¶Now good readers here be now hys owne wordes wyth hys owne exposycion therin. And how lyke you them now? For now the sentēce hath [Page cxlv] he brought at last with myche wurke to none other, but that the lyghte of grace wyll not appere, as longe as the spyrytuall rulers pretende to be obayed and not resysted in the myny­stracyon of the sacramentes & suche other thyngꝭ lyke, bycause they haue theyr authoryte therin immedyately of god in dede. But than on the tother syde, whan so euer they wyll not pretende theyr authoryte so hygh therin, nor so immedyately deryued of god, as to be obayed therin, but wyll be content that men grudge and argue and resyste them therin, and pull them from the awter, and suffre them to mynyster no sacramētes no [...] any such other thyngꝭ lyke: than shal by thys good mannes newe declara­cyon the light of grace appere by and by. Hath not thys pacyfyer here good readers, wyth myche laboure at last brought thys mater to a wyse conclusyon [...]

[Page]¶If he wyll nowe go fro thys a­gayne, and put in his other generall wordes agayne / whyche for his ad­uauntage he lefte out in that place: than is all gone agayne that he goe [...]h aboute / and all myne answere made (as I haue shewed you) good, and all his owne wordes nought.

¶In the lefe also [...] lxxxi. these are hys wordes.

where I saye that as longe as the spyrytuall ruler [...] wyll pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god, that the people are bounde to obaye them wythout argument or resy­stence &c. By these wordes I confesse that they haue authoryte immedyately deryued fro god. But as I sayd before in the seuenth chapyter, mayster Mor [...] hath a ryght greate and a ryght inuentyue wytte, wherby he can lyghtly tnrne a sentence after hy [...] appetyte. And so he doth here &c.

¶What hygh wytte or inuentyue I haue to turne a sentence, let ye reders iudge. But surely the heygth of my wyt can not reche so hygh, as to perceyue in those wordes of his, the sen­tence that hym selfe turneth them to / nor I trow no mannes els / tyll these [Page cxlvi] wordes, They haue authoryte, and these wordes, They pretende to haue authoryte, be bothe one thynge, whyche they were neuer yet. And therfore before his cō fessiō that he now maketh here new: I myght thā well take that excepciō which I haue brought there, to a litle better effect, than doth his here, whi­che wyth all hys wrestelynge and al hys new declaracyons, bryngeth all togyther euer the lenger vnto the wurse conclusyon.

¶For nowe to colour this his ouer­syght with all, he telleth vs whiche maner of pretences he ment in those wordꝭ, which he wold here so fayne defende. And than in stede of preten­dynge to be by goddes ordynaūce by­leued & obayed in all thyngꝭ as well wordes as dedes, he bryngeth forth here a few amountyng in a some to­tall to the infynyte nomber of foure.

¶The fyrst is, that the order and disposicyon of the thynges yt are to be disposed of ye chyrch, be to be disposed [Page] by the prestes: whyche poynt to put as for a mater that hath made dyuy­syon bytwene theym and vs, is a poynt of smal reason as farre as my reason can geue me. For I remēber not of any varyaunce that euer arose bytwene them & vs for that poynt.

¶The secunde is, that all chrysten prynces must subdue theyr execuciōs to bysshoppes, & not to preferre them aboue them. I can not tell you why­ther there be any suche lawe made or not. But I can tell you well that though there be, this poynt wyll not serue his purpose ye value of a blew poynt. For I am sure he neuer sawe in hys dayes any bysshoppe in thys realme, vse that pretence agaynst the kynge, or that euer there arose any diuisyon theruppon.

¶The thyrde is, yt no charge shold be set vppon clerkes by laye power. I neuer herde yet any dyuision ryse vppon thys poynt in my dayes / nor [Page cxlvii] he neyther in his I dare saye. For I neuer saw the day yet nor he neither, but that whan any nede of the kyng & the realm requyred it, they haue euer more ben redy to set taxes vpō them selfe, as lyberally and as largely as any man well myght wyth any good reason requyre.

¶The fourth is he sayth, that yf a seculare iudge be neglygent in doyng of iustyce, that thanne after monicion to amende it geuen to the iudge, yf he wyl not, than ye spyrytuall iudge may compel hym to it, or ellys supply his [...]ome and here the cause.

¶If I shold loke now for th [...]se .iiii. lawes, it myght p [...]raduenture happē that I sholde fynde, that thys man had mysse taken some of thē, as well as he hath mysse vnderstonden some of the other that he hath spokē of be­fore. But syth that I neuer knewe grudge or diuisyon ryse here vppon any of them, me nedeth neuer to loke [Page] more for the mater. For sith this man neuer saw that any spyrituall iudge hath interprysed, in defawt of iustyce to geue any such monicion, or to sup­plye the rome: were that law neuer so vnreasonable, yet to say that vpō that lawe the temporaltye hath here cōceyued such grudge as it hath ben a cause of diuisyon, this pacifier of diuisyon may be mych ashamed yt euer he deuysed it. For I dare say that as well this fourthe cause, as many of all his other be suche, as the people neuer neyther talked of nor thoughte vppon / nor before his own boke, had neu [...]r redde nor herde of. And ther­fore by the puttynge in of such thyn­ges: euery chyld as I sayd in myne apologye may sone perceyue that his bokes labour & entēde not to quenche but rather to kyndle diuisyon.

¶And therfore verely with his sey­enge here euyn in the ende and conclusyon suche causes of his dyuisyon, [Page cxlviii] whych causes but by hym selfe the peple neuer herde of: I maye well saye onys agayne good readers, is not this gere by this good pacyfyer brought vnto a wyse conclusyon?

¶To those wordes wryten in myn apology the .169. lefe, this good man answereth thus.

And now to thys conclusyon of mayster More I wyll say thus, that I beseche almyghty god, that the ende of all these maters may come to thys con­clusyon, that the very groundely causes of these dy­uisyons, that now be not onely in thys realme, but also in maner through all chrysten realmes, maye come to perfite knowledge. For surely I do not take it, that they began eyther by heresyes, or apostasyes as mayster More in his apology meaneth that they [...]lde do.

¶Here you may se good readers yt this good man wold be loth yt it shold appere, that ye diuisiō, parel, & harme haue any where sprōgē vpō heresies begon & set forth by false apostatase, wedded freres & monkes, as clerely as it is knowen yt by thoccasiō therof, there haue ben slayn ī Almain within these very fewe yeres, aboue .lxxx. M. persōs in one somer & yet synnys [Page] among the Swychis whan zuyngliꝰ was slayne, many thousandes killed to / and the warre bygonne by the he­retykes, and the lashe by goddꝭ great goodnes layed in theyr own neckys / as falsely as Fryth bylyeth the ca­tholykes, and agaynst the playne and open knowen trouth, wolde wyth shame inough to hym self make men wene yt the catholikes begā ye warre.

¶But than goth he ferther & saith. And yf mayster More wyll nedyly endeuour hym selfe to hyde the truth therin, a [...] it semeth he hath done in this chapiter, and dyuerse other places of his apologye, by kepynge secrete suche abusyons and pretences, as in my conscyence haue ben moste pryncypall causes of thys dyuysyon, wherof parte be re­cyted in the sayd t [...]eatyce, and part in thys answere but not all.

¶Of these there had nede in dede to be mo, & some more trew, and some of a lytell more substaūce to, than be the most parte of these yt this good man hath layed forth yet.

¶Now here he sayeth that I kepe secrete such abusyons and pretences as be the pryncypall causes of the [Page cxlix] dyuysyon, wherof hym selfe hath he sayth shewed some: eyther he mea­neth that those which I kept secrete, be those that hym selfe hath wryten, or other besyde theym. If he meane other: then eyther hym self knoweth theym or not. If he knowe them not: how knoweth he that I know them, or that there be any suche at all? If hym selfe knowe theym and shewe them not: then he hydeth theym and kepeth theym secret hym self as wel as I. Nowe yf he meane but those that hym selfe hath wryten: how can I kepe those secrete that he hath writen? Can I bothe gather vppe all hys bokes and go hyde theym, and also make thē yt haue redde them go vnreade them agayne, or forgete what they haue redde.

¶But now after this, lyke wyse as he is wonte whē reason fayleth hym to fal to preachyng: so here, bycause reason faileth hym, he falleth to prayenge / [Page] and therin thus he sayth.

I beseche almighty god that he haue no power to do yt, but that the trouth maye come to fyghte therin, tho [...]gh he resyste yt all that he can. For yf yt were knowen / and the fautes charytably reformed: all these dyuysyons wolde shortely haue an ende.

¶Nay perdye, this man seeth well ynought that though the fautꝭ of the spyrytualtye were neuer so fully re­formed, yet could not all that suffyse to brynge all dyuysyons to an ende, but yf one thyng be done / whych wyl neuer be done, wherof (which he for­geteth) I gaue hym warnynge in the .116. lefe of myne Apologye in these wordes.

But now if thys pacyfyer to cease and quenche thys dyuysyon, coulde fynde the meanes to make all the whole clergye good: yet for all that, syth he layeth for causes of this dyuysyon that some men saye thys by the clergye, and some men saye by them that / were all the clergye neuer so good in dede, and serued god neuer so wel, this diuisyon by his own tale, [Page cl] yet could not for all that cease / except he coulde prouyde farther, that no pytuouse pacyfyer sholde in lamen­tynge of dyuysyon, putte forthe a boke and saye, that some lay men say that some of the clergye be noughte, and loue theyre ease and theyr welth / and that some saye that those that seme beste and take moste labour and payne, be but hypocrytes for all that, and serue god but for vayne glorye to gete theym selfe laude and prayse amonge the people.

¶Also yf defautes sholde be charyble reformed, as this man sayth he wolde haue theym: yt wolde be nede then to sette a lytle more charytable folke aboute yt, then those haue ben, that haue begyled thys good man wyth euyll counsayle in hys boo­kys / and haue made hym vnder pretexte of pacyfyenge dyuysyon, sette forthe and encrease dyuysyon, wyth dyuysynge and spredynge abrode causes of murmure and grndge, [Page] makynge in some of them an elephāt of a gnat, and for olde grudges bryngynge forth some suche, as the peo­ple neuer had herd of tyll they redde his bokꝭ and some of the very worst, whyche were most effectuall causes yf they were trewe, bryngyng forth by hepes wyth a fygure of some say, and very playn lyes in dede. Is this the way good readers for a pacifyer to make peace wyth, and put awaye dyuysyons?

¶And nowe hymselfe handelynge the mater thus / he taketh of his cha­ryte great thought, leste I go about to hynder hys holy purpose. And therfore sayth.

I doute me very sore, that maister more goeth obout rather to marre all, then to endeuoyr hym selfe to make all well.

¶Whyche be the lykelyheddes now good reders that lede this good man, into this gret fere? Bycause I make open the shrewde mynde of hys de­mure countenaunce, and the harmful [Page cli] intent and purpose of his holy hole­some wordes. Bycause I wolde haue the temporaltye and the spyry­tualtye as the bodye and the soule of one man, loue well to gether and a­gree and neyther of theym be glad to here euyll of other, nor to geue eare to false sedycyouse slaunder, but the good folke of eyther parte, drawe bothe by one lyne, accordynge to both the law is, to represse and kepe vnder the bad / and among other vyces, specyall suche pestylent heresyes, as el­les wolde oppresse the catholyque fayth, & prouoke the dyspleasure of god, and fyrste sow deuysyon, and afterwarde rere rebellyon in ye realme, as they haue done byfore thys tyme both here and in other places / and yt I to thys entent geue myne aduyce to kepe styll those good lawes that bothe thys realme and all the corps of chrystendome haue long vsed and approued. Bycause I thus do so: [Page] therfore this good man fereth that I go about to marre all.

¶But whyle his bokes go aboute on the tother syde, to make the world wene, that heresyes be no causes of dyuysyon / and to haue heretyques lyue in the lesse fere, wyth many malycyouse some sayes falsely slaundereth the ordynaryes, of cruell wrong full handelyng of the peple, to dryue them by drede or by shame or other tedyouse besynes, to sette heretyques alone / and go aboute wyth balde rea­sons the beste not worthe a ryshe, to put away the good lawes yt haue ben made agaynst theym / & vnder colour of a feruour to the faith exhorte men to go wynne the holy land / and in the meane whyle yet wyth suche wyly wayes, labour wyth heretyques, to fyll vp the [...]tretes at home, & by the decay of the crysten catholyke fayth, prouoke ye wrath of god vpon al our heddes, whych our lord rather turne [Page clii] vpon theyrs that so wold haue it: his bokes besyly goyng about this gere, hym [...] goeth about (ye se well pe [...] dye) to make all thynge euyll.

¶But now wyll I fyrste fynyshe vp his .xx. chapiter, wherin he goeth forwarde thus.

And in thye chapyter mayster More layth dyuer [...] other obieccyons to proue the sayde letter vnreasonable, whych were very tedyouse to reherse at length. And therfore I shall as shortely as I can / touch [...] some of theym.

¶Ye knowe well ynough why they be tedyouse to reherse. Surely by­cause they be very tedyouse to an­swere. But where he sayth he wil reherse some of thē: he begynneth first to shew yt I had no cause to doute of his wordes wherin he sayth that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theyr au­thorytye to be so hygh & so immediately deryued from god &c. I hadde sayth he no cause to doute of what authoryte he ment. For he sayth that his wordes were playn ynough, yt he [Page] meaneth onely of suche authoryties, as they pretende to haue immedyately from god.

¶To this I say playnly, that than are his wordes playne false.

For hys wordes be, that they pre­tende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued from god, that the people are bounde to obay them and to accept all that they do and teache, wythout argumēt re­systence or grudge.

Now knoweth euery man very wel yt they do not pretende to haue autho­ryte immedyately from god, to do all thynge that they now lawfully do and may do, in whyche the people are now bounde to accept and obey them. For as I sayde in myne apologye, in many suche thynges they pretende & claym theyr authoryte deryued from prynces. And therfore ye se that and he labour about yt thys .vii. yeres: he can neuer defende his wordes, but [Page cliii] that I answered hym trewly / & with the necessarye dystynccyon that I there made, answered euery parte. And this hym self seeth wel inough / and therfore in the .lxxx. lefe in the begynnynge of the seconde syde, where he reherseth hys wordes agayne, he leueth out these wordes of his owne. and to accepte all that they do and teache.

Vppon whyche wordes the poynte of the mater hangeth. And ther­fore here you se nowe, that where as in the begynnynge of this chapy­ter, he wolde make yt seme that I stele two or thre wordes of hys, whyche I neyther dyd nor neded for any strength that was in them: here was hym selfe fayne to stele awaye hys owne wordes, to begyle the reader vppon the readyng of the place, and make hym passe ouer hys faute for the whyle vnmarked.

¶And thus good reader you se, that to saue his owne wordes vp ryghte, [Page] and to impugne myne: in those two seuys .lxxx. & .lxxxi. he bestowed his labour in vayne.

¶But then goeth he farther & tou­cheth these wordes of myne Apolo­lye, wryten in my sayde .xxvii. chapyter fo. 165.

Surely in suche thynges as the whole clergy of cristendome teacheth & ordereth in spyrytuall thynges, as be dyu [...]rse of those lawes which this pacyfyer in some places of this boke toucheth, beynge made agaynste heretyques / and all be yt that they be & longe haue bene thorowe the whole corps of crystendome both temporal­tye and spyrytualtye, by longe vsage and custome ratyfyed agreed and confyrmyd, yet he layeth some lacke in theym callynge theym very sore / in those thynges I saye, that syth I no­thynge doute in my mynde / but in that cōgregacyon to goddes honour gracyousely gathered to gether, the good assystence of the spyryte of god [Page cliii] is accordynge to Chrystes promyse as veryly present and assystente as it was wyth his blessed apostles, men oughte wyth reuerence and wythout resystence, grudge, or argumentes to receyue them. And yf a prouyncyall counsayle erre / there are in Chrystes chyrche ordynarye wayes to reforme yt. But in suche thynges as any spy­rytuall gouernours after a lawfull order and forme, dyuyse for the spyrytual weale of theyr soules that are in theyre charge, and whyche thynges are such as good folke may soon per­ceyue them for good / in these thinges at the leste wyse sholde the good not geue eare to the badde folke and fro­warde, that agaynst the beste thynge that can be deuysed can neuer lacke a fonde frowarde argument.

To these wordes this good man answereth me thus.

Then to shew my mynde in some thynges that mayster More hathe touched yet farther in the sayde chapiter: I wyl fyrst agree wyth mayster More / y in suche thynges as the hole clergye of crystendome teacheth and ordreth in syrytuall thynges / and why the of longe tyme haue ben by longe vsage and cu­stome [Page] thorough the hole corps of crystendome spyrytualtye and temporaltye, ratyfyed agreed and con­fyrmed, ought wyth reuerence to be receyued: but yet yf the same thynges thorough longe contynuāce and thorough abusions that ryse by occasyon of thē, proue hurtefull & ouer greuous to the peple to bere [...] they may the people g [...]udge and complayne lawful­ly to theyr superyours / and desyre that they maye be reformed / as lawfully as they may do to haue tem­poral [...] lawes reformed when nede requyreth.

¶As vnto thys, bycause he ys so gentle to agree with me, I shall as gently agre wyth hym agayne / but yet he getteth nought therby. For sith the lawes agaynste whyche he wry­teth, made for the correccyon of heretyques, as I haue in the .xv.xvi. and .xvii. chapyter playnely proued agaynste hym, and reproued his ob­ieccyons therin, be good and very reasonable / and that abusyons (by occasyon wherof he wold make yt now seme, that in long contynuaunce they become hurtfull) he proueth not one in this worlde, but by false slaunde­rouse some sayes surmysed agaynst the ordynaryes, and dyuers tymes [Page clv] founde false byfore the kynges ho­norable counsayle: this answere here of his, helpeth nothyng his mater.

¶Then goeth he [...]arther and sayth vn thys wyse.

I wyll also agre that in the congregacyon of the clergye, to goddes honour gracyously gathered to gether: the good assystence of the spyryte of god, accordynge to Chrys [...]es promyse / wyll be as veryly present and assystente wyth them [...] as yt was wyth hys blessed apos [...]les / yf they order them selfe in mekenesse and charyte and put all theyr truste in g [...]d, as the apostles dyd. But yf they wyl trust [...] theyr own wyt and in worldly polycye: then may they lyght­ly lose the spyryte of god. And whether yt were so at the makynge of the lawes, which mays [...]er More speketh of concernynge heresye or not, I can not tel [...] but this wyll I say, that yf they were not go [...]d and reasonable in them selfe at the fyrs [...]e makyng, that they were neuer made by the assystence of the spyryt of god. And surely I can not then se, how the vsage and longe contynuaunce of them can ratyfye or confyrme them. For as yt is of an euyll custome, that the lenger yt is vsed, the greater is the offence: so i [...] yt of an euyll lawe. And lyke as an euyll custome ys to be put awaye, so yt is of an euyll lawe.

¶Of what strength the generall coūsayles be, & whether we may in any of theē by laufulorder gadered togeder, put any diffydēce or mystrust / and yf we may then in what maner [Page] thinges, and in what wise they bynd, & whom, & how long: I shal not nede for thys mater to dyspute wyth this good man. And all his doute concer­nynge the sayd lawes, whyther they be reasonable or not, and whether the contynuaūce of them be good or not: in all these thynges haue I so confu­ted thys good man all redye, yt these wordes of hys can serue of noughte. But yet to make it seme that he sa [...]d some what / and that no lawe of the chyrche whyche he hath here impug­ned, made agaynst heretyques, was eyther ratyfyed or approued in thys realme: ye shall heare how properlyly he proueth. Lo good readers [...]hese are his wordes.

And the lawee affermed by vsage and agremente of the people be the lawes of [...]astynge and kepynge of [...]lydayes, and suche other as the people of theyr free agremente accepte and agree vnto: but these lawes made for punyshement of heresyes were ne­uer agreed by a comen assente of the people, but that some partyculare persons / wherof some haue ben gyltye / and some peraduenture not gyltye / haue ben punyshed the [...]by ryghte sore agaynste theyr wylles. [Page clv] And that can not be a confyrmacyō of them that so agree against theyr wyl. But as to them y do the correccyon, yt y [...] a confyrmacyō: for they do it wt theyr good wyll. And though that correccyon were a [...]uf­fycyent confyrmacyon, as agaynst theym that be so punyshed: yet yt can not be a confyrmacyon to make the lawe approued for all the resydue of the people.

I can not se therfore that any ratyfyeng, agreyng, or confyrmynge of the people can be pr [...]u [...]d in tho lawes, concernynge the correccyon for heresye:

¶Dyd euer any man good readers here suche a nother reason as thys is? He denyeth not but that the suyle ex officio, and the order taken in the generall counsayle, and the other farther procedynges agayns [...]e heretyques, accordynge to the comen receyued spyrytuall lawes, haue bene vsually longe accustom [...]d in thys realme / & by the princes of ye same & generally by all the people by comen vsage accepted / and ouer that, by playn parlyament lawes and orders made for all temporall offycers to assyste the ordynaryes therin, and to put the offenders in execucyon ther upon and knowynge wel all thys, be [Page] dyssymuleth yt euery whytte, & sayth not one worde therto / but argueth that yt was neuer ratyfyed in thys realme, bycause the heretykes yt are for h [...]resye punyshed, be burned a­gaynste theyre wyll, and agree not them selfe therto. This reason wyl I neuer labour to confute. For if any man be so mad to lyke yt, I were al­moste as madde as he yf I wolde reason wyth hym.

¶After this he resorteth agayne to the vnreasonablenes of the lawes / and proueth theym vnreasonable, by the sentence of hys owne conceyte. For these are his wordes.

And then whether the lawes in them self be good & indyfferent or not, I wyll remytte the iugement in that behalfe to theym that haue authoryte. But to shew my conceyte therin, I shall wyth good wyll euen as my cōscyence meueth me to / & that is, that I coulde neuer se, that yt was reasonable to be accep­ted as a lawe / that a man shulde be accused & knowe not his acuser. And that yt is yet more vnreasonable that a man shuld be condempned / and know not the the wytnesse that condemned hym. Also that a man vpon suspeccyon shuld be dryuen to make his purgacyon at the wyll of the ordinary, or be accursed: Or [Page clvii] that a periured wytnesse shulde cōdempne hym, that he had clered afore: That a greate offender and a le [...]se offender shulde haue one lyke punysshement, yf they renunced: or be a lyke arrested and put in pry­son: I neuer saw no indysferencye in it.

¶Now good readers as for the cō ­ceyte that the good conscience of this man hath cōceiued, is of very trowth but euyn a very pore conceyte / as in the sayed chapyters the .xv. the .xvi. and the .xvii. euery man maye soone perceyue.

¶How be it in the laste poynt that he fyndeth so great a fawte, that a greater offender and a lesse off [...]der, sholde haue one lyke punysshement, thys man loked not well about hym whan he wrote that worde. For whā the thynge is well loked on / ye weight of his reason wyll fall vppon the wronge syde, and all agayns [...]e hys mynde. For where so euer a greater offender and a lesse offender be bothe punysshed alyke: yf the greater of­fender haue no more payne than the lesse hath deserued, there is the order [Page] some what lesse sharpe than it sholde be / but yet not vnryghtuouse. For yf it were, than were the lawes of this realme vnlawfull, that hange vppe hym that doeth but robbe a man, as well as hym that robbeth hym and kylleth hym to. Now so is it in the spyrituall law, that whā two do both renounce theyr heresye, and abiure and bere faggottes bothe, yf the tone hylde .x. heresyes and the tother but twayne, the greater offender hath no more payne than the lesse deserueth. And therfore yf this man in that case complayne: thys complaynt (as I sayd) turneth vn the tother syde / and fyndeth the fawte in that, that whe [...] the lesse offender bereth one faggot, the greater bereth not fyue, yf theyr bodyes be lyke of strength.

¶How [...]e it good readers all thys ta [...]e of hys is to no purpose at all. For in the spyrytuall law, they waye the offences / and consyder the cyrcū ­staunces, [Page clviii] and enioyne the penaunce after the weygth or grauyte of the trespas / and for emprysonynge vse to put no man to it, but where good reason wolde not suffre hym walke abrode. And therfore I suppose / that whan the man was wrytynge thys / hys wytle was walkynge towarde the holy lande. For yf he wold [...] saye that he meneth by the lesse offender and the more offender, suche twayne as abiure bothe, and bere fa [...]ottes bothe, wh [...]re the tone was worthy and the tother not worthy at all: I saye that neyther his wordes wyll mayntayne any such menyng (for he speketh generally of the lesse off [...]der & the more) nor also he proueth none suche but by his slaunderouse some sayes, whyche haue ben playne pro­ued false.

¶Than goeth he ferther and knyt­teth vppe all the chapyter wyth this goodly conclusyon.

[Page]And yf any man wyll saye that these reasons wyll gyue a boldenesse t [...] heretykes: trewly I wyll not [...]ully make answere therto. But thys wyll I saye, that I thynke veryly that they wyll gyue a bolde­nesse to trewth and teew men. And veryly I haue herd say, that it were better to suffre an offender g [...] vnpunyshed, than to punyshe hym vnryghtuo [...]sely and agaynst dew order of iustyce.

¶Marke good reders here for our lordes sake, what maner of reason thys is. The thynge that hym selfe very well perceyueth to be the very weyght and pyth of all the mater, & therfore at laste obiecteth it agaynste hym selfe, as a thynge that had nede to be soyled, what answere doeth he make vnto it? He sayth he wyll not answere it fully. In fayth that is spoken very dully: well, syth so greate weyghte hangeth on it, yf he wolde not answere it fully, he sholde haue answered at the leste wyse halfe. If not halfe, a fourth part yet, or a fyfth parte at the lest. For thys yt he sayth, answereth no parte at all. For two thynges he sayth / one that though he can not saye naye, but that his reasōs [Page clix] yf they be folowed, shall gyue a bol­denesse to heretikes: yet he thynketh they shall also gyue boldenesse to trowth and trew men. And by my trowth I thynke weryly vn the to­ther syde, yt yf heretykes haue bolde­nesse gyuē them, and (as they therby soone shall) take corage and myche encreace, they shall make the trowth shrynke, and many trew men aferde. And yf the geuynge boldnes to fal­sed, shall geue boldenesse to trouth / assaye than and geue boldenesse / and than loke whyther trewe men shall wax the bolder by it.

¶The secunde thynge that he saith is thys, whyche yet he dothe not af­ferme but sayth he hath herd it sayd, that it were better to suffre an offender go vnpunys­shed, than punyshe hym vnrightuousely and agaynst dew order of iustyce.

¶Thys were somewhat pretely sayd, yf thys good man had proued yt heretykes myght not be punyshed by those lawes, but vnryghtuousely [Page] and agaynst the order of iustice. But than how hath he proued that? By no meane in thys world but twayne. The tone, that it is not ryghtuouse nor indyfferente, that a greater offender and a lesse offender sholde be pu­nyshed, emprisoned, or arrested lyke / whych vnreasonable reason oppug­neth playnely in all crimynall causes almost, all the lawes of thys realme and yet helpeth not hys mater, but impayreth it mych, as a lytell here before I haue well & clerely proued.

¶His other reason is his generall reason yt is his whole grounde, wher vppon he b [...]yldeth agaynst all those lawes all his whole mater / that is to wytte, that by those lawes whyche are made for punysshement of here­tykes, it may somtyme fortune that a man may be punysshed whyche is no heretyke in d [...]de.

¶Now is thys reason so vnreaso­nable to be layed for a reason to [...]ake [Page clx] awaye a lawe, that yf it were admyt­ted for reason, it could suffer neyther in thys realme, nor in any realme els any lawe stand in this world, that all the wyttes in this world coulde ima­gyne or deuyse, for any maner punysshement of vngracyouse folke. And albe it that of such lawes some maye be reformed from the wurse vnto ye better / though neuer fully to suche poynt, but that an innocent may take harme: yet both by r [...]ason and expe­ryence it appereth playnely, yt these lawes whyche he wolde haue chaū ­ged and made more easy, can neuer haue any good chaunge, but by ma­kynge them more streygth.

¶And thus hath this good man soreouersene hym selfe, more I trowe than .xx. tymes in hys .xx. cha­pyter.

The .xxi. chapyter.

IN hys .xxi. chapy­ter begynnynge in the .lxxxiiii. lefe, bycause I sayd in myne apologye yt there be fewe par­tes in his boke of diuysyon, that shall yf they be well consydered, appere so good at length, as they seme to some men at the fyrste syght and at superfycyall readynge: he prouoketh me to shew what other fawtes I fynde therin. And than to prycke me forwarde, he bryngeth forth two or thre thynges, whych he sayeth it semeth moste lykely that I shold meane. But wherfore it shold be moost lykely that I sholde meane those thynges / therof sheweth he no thynge / but leueth folke occasyon to thynke, that hys owne mynde mys­gea [...]th hym in those thynges. For me hath he neuer herd make any bu­synes [Page clxi] of them.

¶And afterwarde in the lefe .91. agayne he prouoketh me to the same. And there he recyteth how many chapyters of his I medle not withall / wherin he myghte haue made a shor­ter worke yf he wolde haue let them stande that I towched not / and haue spokē of them onely that I towched. For they were very few, as he that was very vnwyllynge to haue tow­ched any one at all, saue for the mych euyll that couertely was cloked in them, And for the withdrawynge of that cloke that men myght the better se what it ment: I towched the fyrste chapyter for a shew, and the .vii, and the .viii, for that they labored to the great decay of the catholike fayth, to put awaye or chaunge in to wurse ye moste specyall good lawys, bothe of the whole chyrche and of this realm, that haue bene made and obserued longe for the preseruacyon therof. [Page] And the fyrst chapiter was in effecte nothynge ellys, but by false slaunderouse surmyses agaynst the ordyna­rys (as though they myshandeled men for heresye) a shrewde prepara­tiue to it. And therfore leuynge his other tryfles alone: I answered in effecte onely these, of whych so mych harme myght growe. whych thyngꝭ yf they had ben out of his boke, all ye remanaunt good and bad togyther, sholde haue gone forth for me / and therfore yet so shall they: For I pur­pose not to embuse my selfe with cō ­futynge of euery fawte that I fynd in euery mannes boke. I sholde haue than ouer mych a do.

¶Nor I wyll not dysprayse or depraue any thyng that I thynke good eyther in his boke or in any mannes ellys. And therfore I haue in myne apology sayd expressely, that he saith some thynges wel. But for as mych as there be many thynges nought to: [Page clxii] I geue therfore the reader warnyng not to walke awaye with theym ouer hastely, but rede them with iudgemēt and aduise them well / and not byleue euery spyryt, but proue whyther it be of god or not / and that that is good take / and that that is euyll, lette it go to the deuyll.

¶I well allow therfore and lyke not a lytell the great good mynde of Salem toward the vaynquysshyng of the great turke / and conquerynge of the holy lande, wherin he spēdeth the tother thre chapiters of his boke. But I mysse lyke mych agayn, that as he wold dylate the fayth, by force of sworde in farre cuntres hense: so he laboreth to chaūge and take away the good & holsome lawes, wherby the fayth is preserued here at home.

¶I lyke also meruelousely well, that suche poyntes of the catholyke fayth as heretykes nowe labour to [Page] destroye, as prayenge to sayntes, pylgrymage, and purgatory, & the sacra­mentes, and specyally the blessed sa­crament of the awter, wherof in the lxxxvi. lefe he speketh so well, that as helpe me god it dyde me good to rede it: this I saye lyketh me meruelousely well, that the ryght fayth of these poyntes he confesseth so well and so fully for his owne person. But the better opynyon that I haue of his owne person therin, the more sory am I to se, yt his bookes are by some shrewde counsayle handeled in such wyse, as if they were folowed / wolde make the faythe decaye and peryshe in many other folke. Thys is the greate thynge that in his bokes greueth me.

¶For as for the poynt that he spe­keth of in the lefe. 91, of that that the prestes shold eate no flesshe fro quinquagesime to Easter: I take it for a mater as small as he dothe I. [Page clxiii] But than he asketh me wherfore in ye .xxxi. chapiter of myne apology be­gynnyng in the .175. lefe, I make so greate a mater of it. Who so lys [...]e to reade the chapyter, shall se that I wrote it not all in vayne, nor shewe my selfe vnwyllynge that the prestꝭ sholde do it neyther, though they be not bounden to it. But the lesse that the weyghte of the mater was / the more cause this mā gaue me to speke therof. For the more was he to blame to put that and other suche smal ma­ters as that is, for causes of so great a diuisyon, as he surmyseth yt this is. This was lo ye cause that made me to speke therof. whych cause this mā gaue hym selfe / and therfore nedeth not to meruayle as he doth, wherfore I spake therof.

¶And therfore thus haue I good readers now replyed to euery chapyter of his boke by row, saue onely ye last thre which go about a good viage [Page] into the holy lande, a great way farre of fro me. And I haue not leped to & fro, now forwarde, now bakward, in such maner as he playeth in his answere made vnto me, without eyther order kepte or cause apperynge wherfore, saue onely the cause that euery man may spye, that he wold not haue it sene what places he lefte vntow­ched. Which is in a maner the moste parte of all togyther, that in my boke towched the thre chapyters of his. And I haue on the tother syde not lefte any one pyece vnproued, that my selfe spake of before, or that any thynge perteyned vnto me.

¶And therfore where as in the be­gynnyng of the .xxii. chapyter, Sym­kyn Salem geueth hys sentence vppon the sayde answere to the sayde apologye, and alloweth the sayd an­swere well: me thynketh that yf he consydered not onely how myche he hath lefte vnanswered, & how mych [Page clxiiii] of his owne wordes vndefended, whyche he nothynge hath towched at all / but ouer that how febly he hath defended those thynges that he hath towched here: Salem beynge indyfferent, had ben like to haue allowed it but a lytell.

¶For settynge asyde for the whyle all the remanaunt, yf he go but to the very pryncypal poynt alone, wherin he laboreth to chaūge and put awaye those good lawes / ye chaūge wherof (suche as he deuyseth) the decaye of the catholyke fayth and the encreace of heresyes wolde folowe: in that poynt alone, I say we laye agaynst hym, the comen cōsent of this realm. And he layeth his own reasō agaynst it. We laye agaynste hym the consent of ye generall coūsayle. And agaynst this he layeth his owne reason. We lay agaynst hym the generall appro­baciō of all chrystē realmes. And a­gaynst this he layeth his own reason. [Page] And what is hys owne irrefragable reason that he layth agaynst all this? Surely no more as you se, but that by those lawes an innocēt may some­tyme take wrong. Agaynste this rea­son we lay hym, that yf this reason sholde stande, than agaynst malefac­tours there could no law stande. We laye agaynst it also that by his deuy­ces yf they were folowed, by the en­creace of heresyes many innocentes must nedes take mych more wronge.

¶To thys answereth he, that he wyll not answere that. And nowe when Salem seeth that he can not answere that, & seeth that al the weigth of the mater hangeth vpon that: than Sym Salem geueth sentence that he hath answered very well. But surely yf suche answeryng be well / I wote not whyche way a man myght answere yll

¶And therfore where as Symkyn Salem sayth, that yf this good man [Page clxv] wyll, he wyll cause a frende of hys answere all the remanaunt: he may do this good man a myche more frēdly tourne, yf he make hys frende an­swere this better fyrst, that this good man hath answered allredy. How be yt yf they lyste thus to geue ouer thys, and assaye what they can saye better to any other pyece: let theym a goddes name hardely go to for me. And yf they saye any thynge metely to the mater, I wyll put no frende to payne to make them answere / but at leasure cōuenient shal answere them my selfe. And where they say well / I wyll not let to saye so. And where they say wronge / I wyll not lette to tell theym. But on the tother syde yf they go no better to worke, nor no ne­rer to the mater, then thys man hath done: I shall peraduenture let them euen alone / and lette them lyke theyr wrytynge theym selfe, and no man ellys.

[Page]¶But now lettynge passe all specyall yt poyntes: I shall answere ye generaltyes yt thys good man speketh of. Form in the lefe .xc. these are hys wordes.

And now shall I saye somwhat farther in a gene­ralytye, as mayster More hathe done / and that y [...] t [...]is: that al that I speke in the sayde treatyse, was to appeace this diuysyon / and not to begynne any, ne [...] cōtynue yt. And therfore how they can saue theyr conscyence / that saye I dyd rather intende a dyuysy­on then agrement, I can not tell / theyr one conscy­ [...]nce shall be iudge. And I entended also somwhat to m [...]e that myght be occasyon to put awaye abu­sy [...], euyll examplys, and heresyes: and not to [...]cr [...]ase theym or maynteyne theym I dare boldely saye.

¶ To this I answ [...]re, that yt neyther was nor is my mynde, that men shold thynke yt he ment e [...]yl him self, as I haue in many placꝭ of myn apology testified. But verily I thought & yet thinke, yt by some wyly shrewis his boke was so mysse handeled, that yt ment nought, though he ment wel. For where as he sayeth that wyth hys boke of dyuysyon, all hys pur­pose was to appease dyuysyon: I [Page clxvi] wyll not contende wyth hym vppon hys owne mynde. But surely thys wyll I saye, that yf I hadde ben of the mynde to sow and sette forthe dy­uysyon: I wold haue vsed euen the selfe same ways to kyndle yt, that he vsed (as he sayth) to quenche yt.

¶ Thenne goeth he farther and sayth.

And farther as mayster More knoweth better then I, mentire est contra mentem ire, that is to say to lye ys when a man sayeth agaynste hys owne mynde / & in good fayth in all that treatyse, I speke nothynge but that I thought was trew.

¶To thys I answere, that in dede suche a thynge I haue redde, and as I remembre in Aulus Gellius. Whyche thynge though I haue now no leasure to loke for: yet two poyntes I remembre therof. One that yt ys there mentiri and not mentire / whyche infynytyue mode in what boke of grammer this good mā hath founde, I can not tell. I was aferd yt had ben ouersene in the prentynge. [Page] But I haue loked the correccyons, and there fynde I no faute founde therin.

¶The tother poynte I remembre that there ys a dyfference putte be­twene m [...]ntiri & mendacium dicere, that is as we myghte saye / betwene hym that wyttyngly lyeth, and hym that telleth a lye wenyng that it were trewe. And here yt is sayde, wittyngly not to tell a lye, perteyneth to a good man. And not to tell a lye vn­ware, is the parte of a wyse man. And surely syth the scrypture sayeth that he that shortely byleueth is ouer lyghte: thys good man to byleue so many lyes so soon, and wyth so many some sayes to set theym forthe in prent, to the rebuke and slaunder of the spyrytual iudges, and make men wene they mysse handeled men for heresyes, though the mannys inno­cent mynde made the synne the lesse, yet was the thyng at the lest no lesse, [Page clxvii] then a very great lyghtnesse, ye and also a great profe towarde the re­profe of his wordes that folow next, where he goeth farther thus.

And farther I wyll acertayne mayster More a [...] farre as in me is, that I neyther hadde any sotle shrewes counlayle, ne any euyll counsayle at the makynge of the sayde treatyse, whyche he calleth the boke of dyuysyon (as ys sayde before)

¶To thys I answere, that all be yt thys good man and I be at myche varyaunce here in dyuerse thynges: yet for the good and playne professy­on of the catholyque faythe that I fynde in hym, in good fayth I mych better loue hym then in that poynt to beleue hym. For yf he sayde therin trew, then were all the fautes onely hys owne / in whyche as I haue of­ten sayde, I myche rather thynke, that some sotle shrewes haue decey­ued hym.

¶And besyde sondry other thynges that lede me so to thynke, one very stronge thynge ys thys, that euery [Page] man maye well se by hys boke, that all suche as haue resorted to hym to tell hym any suche thynges, as vn­der some sayes he put oute agayne, haue alwaye tolde hym euyll / and neuer told him good. And of misse handlynge for heresyes haue euer tolde hym lyes, and neuer tolde hym trew. For where as the punyshement for heresyes hathe ben very lytle any where, saue euen here at hande, and here but ryght done to them, and that wyth myche fauour to: they haue made hym good sely soule byleue, that ordynaryes mysse handle men for heresye in maner thorow oute the realme.

¶Also where as such slaunderouse clamour hath bene sondry tymes of late in al yt euer complayned, playnly proued false before the kynges most honorable coūsayle, not one man cam to tell hym nothynge therof, nor not one some say therof wryten in all his [Page clxviii] boke / and ouer this where as myne owne self haue playnly told hym [...]he same thyngꝭ in myn apologye by writing: yet (which most meruayle were of all, saue for such wyly shrewes) euery man may well se that he neu [...]r redde yt. For he sayth not one worde therto. And therfore yt is eth to per­ceyue what so euer hym selfe saye whych is loth of his goodnes to put other folke in faute, yt there be some wyly shrewes so myche about hym, yt they neyther suffer hym any thyng to here but yt them self lyst to tel him, nor yet any thinge to rede, but where them selfe lyste to turne hym.

¶And nowe syth I haue here an­swered these generalytyes of hys: I wyll not longe encumbre you with any generaltyes of myn own, but generally I wold yt al were well. And so helpe me my sauiour & none other wise, but as I wold wishe none heretike one halporth harme, yt had clerely [Page] lefte hys heresye, and were well tu [...] ned to god. But on the tother syde, who so sticke styl therin: rather wold I wyshe hym sorowe to his synne, wherby there are many folke many tymes amended, then prosperousely to procede in hys myschyefe to the losse of his own soule and other men­nys to. And towarde that poynte, a­gaynste all male factours in the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye to, wold I wyshe all good folke of bothe partes to agre, and eche loue other wel, and stycke faste to the fayth, whyche were like sore to decay by the chaūge of these good lawes that thys good man goeth aboute to destroye. For whose vnreasonablenesse therin the better to be perceyued, wyth the daū geour and parell that wolde ensewe theron: I wyll desyre you good readers to resorte to myne Apologye / and begynnynge at the lefe. 270, rede vnto the lefe. 287. wherin you [Page] shall I truste be well and fully satysfyed. And vnto all that euer ys in all that spoken: thys man hath no­thynge sayd.

¶And where as in confutynge the fautes that thys man fyndeth in the suyte ex officio, and the lawes made agaynste heretyques, I haue vsed some examples of the comen lawe, whyche this man hathe labored to proue vnlyke / and I haue therin cle­rely confuted hym a freshe: yt maye peraduenture happen that he wyll now take a nother waye therin, and saye that in such poyntes those spyrytuall lawes maye be reformed, and those temporall to.

¶How be yt yf he so saye, but yf men forgette what hath ben sayd be­fore: ellys shall they se that his say­enge wyll not serue hym.

¶For fyrste as I haue sayed ofter then ones all redy, the same thynges [Page] in the comen lawe be not to be chaun­ged. For yf they be: there shall come therof more harme thanne good. And yf yt happen one innocent to take harme by the lawe: there shall fyue for one take more harme by the chaunge.

¶More ouer yf we sholde for that cause chaunge those tēporall lawes, that ys to wytte bycause some inno­cent maye somtyme take harme by them: we must chaunge by the same reason, all that olde vsed lawe that a man maye be arrested and remay­ne in pryson tyll he fynde suertyes for the peace, vppon the bare othe of hys enmye that sayth he is a ferde of hym. For by that law may some tyme an innocent take harme to. And yet muste that lawe stande yf we do well. For ellys shall there by the chaūge, mo innocentes take more harme.

[Page clxx]¶What trouble haue there many men in Walys, by that they be com­pelled to be bounden to the peace, bothe for them selfe and for theyr seruauntes and other frendes to? And yet is the order there so necessary that in many lordshyppes yt maye not be forborne.

¶And surely yf we fall to chaun­gynge lawes vpon ye symple groūd: we muste then chaunge so many that it wolde not be well.

¶Bysydes thys yf men sholde re­forme and chaunge a lawe, bycause that an innocent maye somtyme take harme therby: then must they when they haue chaunged it, chaunge yt yet agayne / & after that chaunge, yet chaunge yt agayne / & so forth chaūge after chaunge and neuer cease chaungynge tyll the worlde be all chaun­ged at the daye of dome For neuer can all the wyttes that are in yt, make [Page] any one penall lawe / suche that none innocent may take harme therby.

¶How be yt yf a newe lawe were drawen and putte forthe to be made agaynst any such myschiefe as wold els do mych harme: good reason yt were to take an excepcyon to the byl, and shewe that innocent [...]s myghte be myche harmed by thys poynt or that / and therwyth prouyde the re­medye and putte it in the lawe, and stoppe as many such gappes as then coulde be spyed. Ye and yf after the law made men foud notable harme, that good folke were myche wron­ged by it / and the lawe suche that it eyther myghte be forborne, or els the meanes founde to be chaunged to the better: good reason wold it to make prouysyon for it.

¶But surely to come forth as thys man cometh here, agaynste so good lawes, so well made, and by so great [Page clxxi] authoryte, so longe approued thorow the whole corps of chrystendome, in thys realme ratyfyed specyally by parlyament, and that vppon a profe not wythout great grounde & cause, euer synnys founden so profytable for preseruacyon of the fayth, and proued se necessary vpon thys man­nes own deuyces, that without great encreace of heresyes they can not be forborne / nor neuer can be chaunged but eyther to the strayghter or ellys to the wurse: to come now forth and for appeasynge of dyuysyon, so we fyrste a slaunder that maye make dy­uysyon, and than labour to chaunge those lawes, vpon none other groūd but onely that an innocent may happe to take harme by meane of false iud­ges, and than proue not any wronge done, but by false some sayes onely, agaynste whyche false some sayes the trouth is proued contrary, bothe [Page] by iuste examynacyon before the kynges counsayle, and ouer that playnely by thys one poynte also, whyche no man can denye, that there ys no lawe prouyded agaynste so great a cryme, by whyche lawe lesse people haue in thys realme be punyshed: therfore to come nowe thus as thys good man dothe, and procure the chaunge of these lawes, so olde, so good, and so necessarye, and to make theym more easy, wherwyth here­tyques wolde war bolde, whyche thynge hym selfe (as you se) deny­eth not in the ende: what is this good chrysten readers, but to procure that the catholyque chrysten fayth, myght fade and fall awaye?

¶And yet as for thys man hym self to tell you for conclusyon what I thynke / all be yt there are as you se ryghte euyll and perylouse thynges in hys bokes, wyth deuyces that [Page clxxii] wolde make heresyes encrease: yet syth he professyth so playnely the catholyque chrysten faythe, and by his exhortacyon also towarde the conqueste of the holy lande, declareth hys mynde zelouse and [...]eruent towarde yt, I rather byleue though hym selfe therto saye naye, that in those thynges whyche he wryteth so perylouse and so noughte, some wy­ly shrewes begyle the good innocent man, than that hym selfe in hys own mynde, meane all that harme.

¶But yet for as myche as in thys poynt, without syght of mānes hart we can but go by gesse / & who so goth by gesse, may be deceyued (For (as hym selfe sayth) a wolfe maye loke symply lapte in a shepes skynne) I shall therfore trust the best, and leue the trouth to god. And concernynge suche euyll wrytynges, syth yt must nedes be, that he wrote them eyther [Page] deceyued by some shrewys, or ellys but of hym selfe / I can no more do for hym, but hartely praye for hym thus. If shrewys deceyue hym: god sende theym shortely from hym. If he wrote them of his own mynde: thanne syth the thynges be noughte, he wrote theym eyther of euyll wyl, or of ouersyght. If he wrote theym of malyce / god geue the euyll man more grace. If he wrote theym of folye: god geue the good man more wytte.

¶And thus I beseche our lorde sende vs euerychone, bothe the spy­rytuall and the temporall to, bothe wytte and grace to agre to gether in goodnes, and eche to loue other, and eche for other to praye / and for those y of both partes are passed into purgatorye, and there praye for vs as we praye here for theym, that they and we bothe thorowe the me­rytes of Chrystes bytter passyon, [Page clxxiii] maye both wyth our own prayours, and the intercessyon of all holy sayn­tes in heuyn, auoydynge the eternall fyre of hell, haue pyty powred vpon vs in the very fyre of purgatorye, whyche in those two places veryly burneth soules. And fynally for our fayth and good workes, whych his grace (workynge wyth the wylles of thoses ye wytte haue) geueth eche good man here: good geue vs in heuen to gyther euerlastynge glorye.


¶Prynted by w. Rastell in Fletestrete in saynte Bridys chyrch yarde, the yere of our lorde. 1533.

Cum priuilegio

The fautes escaped in the pryntynge of the fyrste part of thys boke. fautes.the amēdemētes tenne shetesin .xii. shetes nor
   nor in tennein .xii.
viii.i.ii.thretwo aano a
xii.ii.xii.wyt towyt into
xv.i [...].i.appere [...] byappere by
xviii.i.vii.fayle whychefayle to fal which conteynethit conteyneth
xxv.ii.ii.of a trewof trew
xxxix.i.xv.wordesworde [...] were
xl.ii.x.yfbut yf
xlii.ii.v.pouerty / andpouerte, nor wold them no lesse then they haue / and
xliiii.ii.v.hycaus [...]bycause
xlvi.i.i.betwen prestesbetwen other preste [...] prestesthe seculer preste [...]
lxi.ii.xxii [...]i [...] to theis the
lxvii.i.v [...].no moreI no more
lxx.i.xiv.nonecesno neces
lxxxv.i.iiii.all talkyngeall such talkyng
lxxxvi.ii.xii., as, ys
lxxxvii.i.iiii./wolde/they wolde
ci.i.xxiithyshy [...]

The fautes escaped in the seconde parte. fautes.the amēdemētes
iiii.i.xix.playneso playne.
v.ii.i.certaynea certayne
v.ii.iiii.settedsetteth ground & his foundacyon is thysAll thys muste be in the great letter
vii. [...]i.xi.vs thertovs
viii.i.v.BeBy hyshath in hy [...]
xxviii.ii.iii., made, is made
xxxvii.i.viii.meanethmeaneth not
xxxvii.ii.xii.hadde itdyd it prouydedit was prouyded
xlviii.i.v.shewethshewed tosome to
l.ii.ix.waswas not
lvi. [...].viii.themthen
lx.ii.xxi.prouethproue yet
lxiij.vthe contrary wythout somethe cōtrary, that is to wyt that he wil not trust a iu­ge so well: thys can he not say [...] wythoute some
lxvii.j.xviii.felony, forfelony, or for
lxxi.ij.vii.Almayneof Almayne
lxxii.j.ii.Chryst / with all whoseChryst with all / whose [...]yslanys
lxxvii.xiii.yfy [...]
lxxvi [...].ii.viii.thanthat
lxxx.i.xxii.If heIf we
lxxxiiiii.xv. & xvi.testyfyebe testyfyed
lxxxvii.ii.ii.reasonthat reason
xcviii.ii.xxiiian englyshenglyshe
ciii.ii.xxiiii.haue any lo [...]ehaue lo [...]e
cxi.j.xi.that Iand I
cxviii.j.iii.doute not alsodout also
cxvii [...].iixviii.examynacyonexcōmunycacyon
cxxvi.jxviii.xix.xviii. doubledouble
cxxxv.j.xx.pur [...]osepurpose. hyghbe so hygh
cxlvi.jviii.than doththan he doth
clii.j.i [...]ii.all thyng euylall thynge well
clii.j.v.I fyrste fynyshI fynyshe
[...]lixj.xiiiboldenesse / andboldenesse to theu [...]e / and
clxiii.ii.xii.touched theys touched of th [...]
clxvii.j. &. ii.all specyall theall the specyall
clxvi.ii.x.And hereAnd the [...]e

Syr Thomas More knyght to the chrysten reader.

AFter these fautes of the prenter escaped in this boke, I shall not let good reders to geue you lyke warnynge of one faute of myne own, escaped me in the begynnyng of this boke. In the .xiii. lefe wherof, and in the fyrste syde, cancell and put oute one of those ouersyghtes that I laye to the pacyfyer, in those .ix. lynes, of whyche the fyrste is the .ix. lyne of the same syde, and the laste is the .xviii. For of trouth not ye pacifyer but my selfe was ouersene in that place with a lytle haste, in mysse remembrynge one worde of his. For where as he sayth in the person of Byzance, in the thyrde lefe of Salem and byzance. I wyl cause yt to be wryten into this dyaloge word for word as yt is come to my handes: I forgate whan I answered yt that he sayde, as yt is come / and toke it as though he sayd as it cometh to myne handes.

[Page]And therfore albe it that I haue knowen many that haue redde it, of whiche I neuer founde ony yt found it: yet syth it happed me lately [...]o loke theron & fynde myne ouersyght my selfe, I wolde in no wyse leue it good reader vnreformed. Nor neuer pur­pose whyle I lyue, where so euer I maye perceyue, eyther myne aduersarye to say wel, or my self to haue sayd otherwyse, to let for vs both indyffe­rently to declare and say the trewth.

And surely yf they wold vse ye selfe same honest pl [...]ne trewth towarde me: you sholde sone se good readers all our contencyons ended. For than shold you se, that lyke as I haue not letted after myne apology, to declare that Tyndale had somewhat amen­ded and aswaged in one poynt, hys formare euyll assercyōs concernynge satysfaccyon: so shold he confesse the trouth that I hadde trewly touched hym / and that hym selfe had sore er­red, as well in the remanaunt therof [Page] as in all his other heresyes. And thā also, lyke as I let not here for the pacyfyers parte to declare my self ouer­sene wyth haste in thys one poynt: so shold he not let well & honestly to say ye trouth on the tother syde, & confesse hym selfe very farre onersene wyth longe leysoure, in all ye remanaūt by syde. I saye not in all that he sayth, but in all yt is debated betwene vs.

I wote well the beste horse were he which were so sure of fote that ronne he neuer so faste wolde neuer in hys lyfe neyther fall nor [...] ̄ble. But syth we can fynde no [...]e so sure: that horse is not mych to be mysselyked, whych that wyth corage & pryckyng forth in haste, happynge for all hys foure fete somtyme to cache a fall, geteth vp a­gayne lyghtly by hym selfe, wythout touche of spurre or any checke of the brydell. No nor yet that horse to be caste awaye neyther, that getteth vp a [...]ayne apace with the cheke of them bothe. Now lyke a [...] wyth the best [Page] kynde can I not compare: so of the thyrde sorte at the leste wyse wyll I neuer fayle to be, that is to wyt ryse & reforme my self, whā any man she [...] me my faut. And as nere as I cā [...] I serche thē / & as sone as I spye the [...] before any man controll them [...] aryse [...] and as I now do myne owne selfe reforme theym. whyche kynde ys you wote well nexte vnto ye beste. But yet on the tother syde, of all myne aduersaryes could I neuer hytherto fynd [...] any one, but whan he catcheth on [...] a fall, a [...] [...]he [...]theym hath caugh [...] full man [...] there lyeth he styll tum­blynge & toltrynge in myre, and n [...]y­ther spurre nor brydyll can one ynche preuayle / but as though they were not fallē in a puddle of dyrt, but rub­bed & layed in lytter vnder the man­ger at theyre ease, they whyne & they byte, and they kycke, and they sp [...]ne at hym that wolde helpe them vp [...]e: And that is yet a fourth kynde, the wurste ye wo [...]e [...]ell that can be.


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