A reflection of certaine authors that are pretended to disauow the churches infallibilitie in her generall decrees of faith. By F.E. Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? 1635 Approx. 340 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 123 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2012-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 2). A05217 STC 15351 ESTC S106826 99842535 99842535 7199

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 Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A05217) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 7199) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 769:02) A reflection of certaine authors that are pretended to disauow the churches infallibilitie in her generall decrees of faith. By F.E. Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? [38], 200 p. By the widdow of Mark Wyon at the golden Phœnix, At Doway : 1635. E.F. = Edmund Lechmere. Running title reads: Infallibilitie in decrees of councels œcumenicall. Page 85 misnumbered 49. Some print show-through; some leaves tightly bound. Reproduction of the original in the British Library.

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 eng Catholic Church -- Infallibility -- Early works to 1800. 2020-09-21 Content of 'availability' element changed when EEBO Phase 2 texts came into the public domain 2009-09 Assigned for keying and markup 2009-10 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2011-08 Sampled and proofread 2011-08 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2012-05 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

A RELECTION OF CERTAINE AVTHORS That are pretended to diſauow THE CHVRCHES INFALLIBILITIE IN HER GENERALL DECREES OF FAITH.

BY F. E.

Acts 15. It hath ſeemed good to the Holy Ghoſt and to vs.

AT DOWAY By the widdow of MARK WYON at the golden Phoenix. 1635.

TO THE RIGHT-WORSHIPFVLL MY WORTHIE FREIND M. S. N. MVCH HONOVRED SIR

WHEN I receaued from you the last rich token, I promiſed to returne a letter full of thanks. But being then vpon a iourney, found not meanes to ſend; and ſo failed in my dutie. Whereby my obligation was doubled: to pay the debt, that first; and then, to ſatisfie for the fault. In diſcharge of both which, if you pleaſe to accept of theſe few printed leaues, you shall oblige anewe

Your thankfull freind and ſeruant F. E.
To M. S. A. SIR

WHen a doubt is propoſed out of a deſire to knowe the truth, I muſt not (being called vpon) be wanting to profeſſe what I haue learned and do beleeue: but if it comes out of a curious humor of contradicting, I can diſpoſe of my time better then to ſpend it in diſputes. What your mind is, you reſerue as your ſecret; yet not ſo ſecret neither but that I perceaue ſomething of it. Your deliberation, might I be of your counſell, should quicklie be concluded.

He takes the ſafe way that followes the direction of the Church. That Church I meane, which all times could point at; and which all Hereticks haue oppoſed. You know that neitherMar. vlt. Ioan. 3. Apoc. 21. Tim. 3. Galat. 5. vide S. Aug. li. 4. con. Donat Hereticks nor1. Cor. 12 Col. 2. Gal. 5. Vide S. Aug. Ep. 152. & de vnit. Eccl. c. 4. Firmiſſimè tene & nullatenus dubites, non ſolum omnes Paganos, ſed etiam omnes Iudaos, Haereticos, atque Schiſmaticos, qui extra Eccleſiam Catholicā praeſentem finiūt vitam, in ignem aternum ituros, qui paratus eſt diabolo & angelis eius. S. Fulg. de Fide ad Pet. c. 38. inter Op. S. Aug. t. 3. Of the grieuouſnes of the crime of Schiſme ſee S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donatiſtas. Schiſmatiks (one wanting charitie, the other faith too,) be in ſtate of ſaluation. Theſe, and ſuch like things, you can weigh, your ſelf. And, where the minde is not ill diſpoſed, the reſolution is moſt eaſie. Prudence neuer ſticks at ſuch a matter.

If your hinderance be that onlie which is inſinuated, I shall willinglie shew you how you may remoue it. Go the Catholike waie: that, is ſecure. Seeke no by-waies.

Suppoſe you might be made Arch-bishop of Canterburie, vpon condition that you would go to Lābeth on foote; and that there were ſome danger, yet no great dāger neither, of looſing your purſe (without further harme) if you tooke the common way ouer the bridge. Would you ſtay, till winter, that you might go without that difficultie, in greater perill: and then, hearing Themſe to be frozen, preſentlie (before they durſt venture who told you ſo,) take your iourney ouer the ice? A wiſe man would not vēture his life and all, in that manner; to ſaue two or three, ten or twē tie peices: being preſentlie to receaue a thouſand if he came to Lambeth ſafe, and euer after to liue in great aboundance. Yet your caſe is more deſperate. You know that in heauen you shall receaue at your entrance the poſſeſſion of an eternall kingdome, with a crowne of glorie amongſt Angels in immortalitie. The common way thither is the Catholike, which way if you take, you cō ceaue the danger of being a little taxed in your purſe; and you think you heare ſome tell you, there is an other waie, but nice and ticklish: wherein thoſe who ſpeak, themſelues durſt not venture; becauſe if it miſcarrie, ſoule and bodie and Heauen and all, is loſt, by a fault ofQuiſquis ab hac Catholica Eccleſia fuerit ſeparatus, quā tumlibet laudabiliter ſe viuere exiſtimet, hoc ſolo ſcelere quod à Chriſti vnitate diſiunctus eſt, non habebit vitam; ſed ira Dei maret ſuper eum. S. Auguſt. Epist. • 52. Schiſme, which opens into a downefall that ends not but (where there is no end at all) in Hell.

To venture your bodie ouer a deepe riuer vpon a bridge of thinne brittle glaſſe, and to venture your ſoule ouer Hellmouth vpon a ticklish opinion, which is worſe? He that loueth danger (the Scripture ſaith) shall perish in it. Eccleſ. • . What ſpeake I of an opinion? When your imagination doth ceaſe from working, no bridge at all appeares: you are but in a dreame.

But, were there two or three, who did (againſt the reſt, and againſt the knowne practice of the Church,) auouch what you pretend, would you venture your ſoule (whilſt worlds of learned men bid you take heed) vpon their word? Perpetuall torment among the damned ſpirits, is a matter of that horrour, that wiſedome would ſeeke the ſafeſt waie to decline it: and he that could ſee heauen a far of, with thoſe inexplicable • oyes that are in it, would think on nothing els but the ſecureſt way thither; and feare nothing more then to miſſe it.

Were you to purchaſe a temporall eſtate or inheritance for your child, you would not venture your mony vpon a title, which the practice of the kingdome doth diſlike and which Lawiers commonlie ſay is naught; though two or three should tell you that it were a good title: much leſſe in ſecuring to your owne ſoule an eternall inheritance, should you be contented to relie vpon the Authoritie of two or three (were there ſuch) the reſt, with the generall Spirit Gods people, contradicting and anathematizing ſuch as proceede in that manner.

That Catholikes are againſt you, generallie, in this point • you know. They communicate not with thoſe who d • openlie oppoſe themſelues to the decrees of Councels oecumenicall. The Councels themſelues excommunicate and anathematize them alſo. And, as manie graue Prelates and learned Deuines as euer eſteemed their authoritie ſufficient to determine a Controuerſie and oblige men to conforme their iudgment therevnto, (who be innumerable,) ſo manie do counſell you not to truſt vnto theſe fewe, (ſuppoſe you found them;) telling you that if you do you forfaite heauen.

When a fewe, reputed Schollers, (were they many, were it a whole Nation,) hold a tenet that is againſt the Church, their Authoritie doth not make itProbabilia ſunt quae vidētur omnibus, aut plurimis aut ſapientibus; & his vel omnibus, velplurimis, vel maximè familiaribus & probatis. Ariſt. li. 1. Topic. c. 1. Nonomne quod videtur probabile, est probabile. Ibidem. probable. The truth of her aſſertions dependeth not vppon the approbation of euerie one that is in her Communion: Much leſſe, of others. The Paſtors are to teach; and if ſome of them do chance to forgoe the truth and leaue it, there is power in theYou remember the practice of the Church in her firſt Councells, againſt Arians, Neſtorians, &c. reſt to define the matter and condemne thē.Docete. Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know; they be grounded; they take the ſecure way.

The way which you take is temerarious: it is the ſame which Hereſie doth vſuallie take to ſpred it ſelf. And in making choiſe of it you shew in your ſelf the diſpoſition of a Sectarie. The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three, againſt the common, and againſt the Spirit of the Church generallie: yet, becauſe it likes him, (for that it is eaſier to be conceaued, or more agreeable to ſome phantaſie that he hath, or better ſuting to the libertie which he could wish,) he is cōtent to • hink the authoritie of thoſe •• o or three (though the •• ſt contradict) ſufficient to • ake is probable: and then, iud • ng of the reaſons and moti • es which they bring, as his •• fections incline him, he thinks 〈◊〉 at laſt, certaine. So did the • rians; depending vpon the • uthoritie, firſt of their lea • ers; and then deeming their • otiue (as that, pater maior me 〈◊〉 ) to be manifeſtlie againſt the Church, and for them. Neither be the Leaders themſelues (Arch-heretickes) wi •• out pretence of authoritie; they cite theFortaſſe aliquisinterroget, An & Haeretici, diuinae Scripturae teſtimonijs vtantur? Vtuntur planè, & vehemēter quidem; nam videas eos volate per ſingulaquae que ſanctae legis volumina: per Moyſi, per Regum volumina, per Pſalmos, per Apoſtolos, per Euangelia, per Prophetas. Siue enim apud ſuos, ſiue alienos; ſiue priuatim, ſiue publice; ſiue in ſermonibus, ſiue in libris; ſiue in conuiuijs, ſiue in plateis: nihil vnquam paenè de ſuo proferūt, quod non etiam Scripturae verb • s adumbrare conentur. Vinc. lirin. c. 35. Si quis interroget quē piam Haere •• corum ſibi talia perſuadentem, vnde probas, vnde doces, quod Eccleſiae Catholicae Vniuerſalem & antiquam fidem dimittere debeam? Statim ille mille teſtimonia, mille exempla, mille authoritates parat, de lege, de pſalmis, de apoſtolis, de prophetis; quibus nouo & malo more interpretatis, ex arce Catholica in Haereſeôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur. Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo modū iſtum didiciſſe; Scriptum eſt enim. Scriptures, •• d gleane obſcure ſpeaches • t of auncient, good writers, which in shewe do make for them.

When a man once takes this • ay, he ſquares out his Religion to himſelf; or rather he runnes out of all: from one thing to another, from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to leſſe and yet leſſe and leſſe probable; till at laſt is he findes himſelf, moſt certainlie, in Hell. Faith is a firme aſſent but his, (if well examined) is not ſo. It is not diuine faith; he doth but flatter himſelf and deceaue others, with a shadow If two or three tell him that • Councell may miſtake (though the reſt auouch the contrarie, he is content to think it may and heereupon, preſentlie doubts of all, that is ſo defined Then further, proceeding i • the ſame (ſillie) motiue; if th • whole Church auouch a thing yet ſo, as ſome two or three at ſome time or other, held th • contrarie; he will not belee •• the Church neither, No, nor the Apoſtles, if any tell him they might erre. A Rainolds, a Whittakers authoritie, makes the contrarie to him probable; and by that time he hath read their bookes, he thinkes himſelf certaine of it. But in the meane while, where is the faith of ſuch a man? wherevnto doth he giue a firme aſſent? To the Scriptures? No: their authoritie who denied them, makes him doubt. To the Creed? nor ſo; the authoritie of two or three ſerues his turne, and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refuſed. Arianiſme, Neſtorianiſme, Sabellianiſme, Eutichianiſme, Pelagianiſme, Lutheraniſme, Swinglianiſme, all great Hereſies haue had multitudes of abbet • ors; whereas two or three, ſerue his turne. Where then is his religion? in his mouth peraduenture: but in his heart, well examined, there is none.

Others there be, not ſo readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatſoeuer eſteemed learned; but determined extreamelie vnto one. The Puritan for example, to Iohn Caluin; whom he prefers before the reſt all together. Wherein he shewes himſelf as extrauagantlie peccant againſt the light of nature as the former. Amōgſt the many principes or Axiomes which reaſon dictates to the Prudent, this is one, that, in matters of beleefe the greateſt Authoritie muſt ſway our vnderſtanding. He will not denie that this is true, he might as well denie the ſunne shines at middaie; but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it. The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall, is greater then the Authoritie of one ſingle man. The greateſt • chollers haue euer ſtooped to 〈◊〉 : yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin, then ſuch a Councell. Yea rather, then all the knowne Churches in the world, thoughThough ſome now diſsēt, as you for example, yet theſe points haue had the conſent of all Chriſtian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood. conſenting. As, in the matter of the Maſſe, vnbloodie Sacrifice, reall Preſence. And what way is there, think you, to deale with ſuch a man? or to what end is it to diſpute with him? If you cite Scripture, he will rather take the comment of his Maſter Iohn, then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient, of the whole Church, deliuering the ſence of it. It is ſo in the point of the Reall preſence. And, in admitting the Bookes of 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 Scripture too, he will be his owne chooſer; and will iudge, himſelf, which is good and ſound and which ought to be diſcarded.

Vide disput. de Eccleſ pag. 304. But who shall decide the cō trouerſie betwixt the Church and him, touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaſeth to let paſſe for currant? The Spirit, no doubt. But, in whom? in the Church or the vniuerſitie of beleeuers before his time? Not ſo. They might erre he thinkes; and ſo might all the Councells of Biſhops that euer were; and all the Paſtors of the world, though conſenting; they might all, he thinks, be deceaued. Where then ſpeakes the Iudge he meanes to ſtand to, when the Controuerſie is about the ſence of Scripture, or about the ſinceritie of the letter? in whom ſpeakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Maſter? In Maſter Iohn. So he beleeues; rather thē he will beleeue that he ſpeaketh in the Church.

Now tell me, is not this a ſtrange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall eſtate? to challeng to ones ſelf, or his Maſter Iohn, authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture, and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Biſhops and Paſtors, whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine, and to keepe the Church from wauering in ſuch matters? and not onlie to them,Epheſ. 4 in what age ſoeuer, but abſolutelie to the Church, without exempting the firſt Diſciples, and Apoſtles? Theſe for ſooth, be the men that in the pulpits crie ſo lowde, who diſeſteeming the whole world beſides, obtrude themſelues as maſters of mankind, each an Oracle.

I know you wash your hands; your words condemne their inſolencie: you will not ſeeme to participate of their fault. But what is in your heart? Are not you too, one of thoſe that abbet a priuate judgment againſt a publike?

You plead againſt the power of the Church to determine matter of faith in her generall aſſemblies; that I ſee. And I know too, that you punish men for not conforming themſelues to the determinations of one not generall. Reconcile theſe if you can. And tell me, if I be not bound to conforme my judgment to the judgment of a Councell when it is perfectlie oecumenicall, what shall binde me to conforme it vnto one that is onelie Nationall? if the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfullie refuſed, what obligeth me in conſcience and before God to receaue the Decrees of your Conuocation? Is euerie ſubiect bound to be of his Princes Religion? or is it lawfull for him to ſubſcribe againſt that he knowes to be the truth? Is England, ſince you began to teach, growne bigger then all the world? is a part (is was not of old ſo,) bigger then the whole?

In way of excuſe for your not ſubſcribing to decrees oecumenicall, you plead the Authoritie of ſome fewe men; (how vniuſtlie, heareafter it will appeare;) and shall not the Authoritie of farre more, and thoſe great Schollers, excuſe vs in conſcience for not ſubſcribing to your priuate Articles wherein be many things generallie condemned in former ages? To giue inſtance in one point, that containes many. In your 23. article you determine thus, The Sacrifices of Maſſes in the which, was commonlie ſaid that the Priests did offer Chriſt for the quick and the dead, to haue remiſsion of paine or guilt, were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits. So you. Yet was this Sacrifice, frequentedMiſſa abominatio in calice aureo propinata, omnes reges terra & populos à ſummo vſque ad nouiſsimum ſic inebriauit, vt proram & puppim ſuae ſalutis in hac vna voragine ſtatuerint. Caluin. Inſtit. li. 4. c. 18. See the Proteſt. Apol. tract. 3. Sect. 1. and in the Concluſion; to the Iudges; Sect. 6. & 10. generallie, when Luther began to make your Schiſme. It was auowed in theS. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Noui testamenti Nouam docuit oblationem, quam Eccleſia ab Apoſtolis accipiens in vniuerſo mundo offert Deo. Concil. Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill. & cum eo Concil. Epheſ. in Anathem. 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Pſalm. 33. Nondum erat ſacrificium Corporis & Sanguinis Domini quod nunc diffuſum eſt toto orbe terrarum. S. Ambroſ. de Sacram. li. 4. & 5 S. Cyrill. Catech. myſt. 5 S. Chryſoſt. lib. 3. & 6. de Sacerdotio, & Hom. 17. in Epiſt. ad Hebraeos. His Liturgie is yet extant. And ſo is S. Baſils too. S. Gregor. Nyſſen. Hom. 1. de Reſurr. Praeoccupat impetum violentum, ac ſeſe in oblationem & victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes ſimul & agnus Dei. Vide Diſp. li. 5 c. 9 & Coccium in Theſanro, t 2. li. 6. a. 4. times primitiue. And our SauioursThis is my bodie which is broken for you. This is the blood of the new teſtament which is shed for you. words, regiſtred in the1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead, it is alſo teſtified abundantlie. S. Epiphan. Haereſ. 75 where he ſaith alſo the Church receaued it by tradition. S. Cyrill. Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi ſunt, maximum credentes animarum iuuamen pro quibus offertur obſecratio ſancti illius & tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij. S. Chryſoſt. Homil. 3 in Epiſt. ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apoſtolis ſunt legibus constituta vt in venerandis inquam atque horriſicis myſterijs memoria corum fiat qui deceſſerunt, nouerant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere, multum vtilitatis. S. Auguſt. in Enchirid. ad Laurent. c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort. c. 1. &c. 4. Non ſunt praetermittenda ſupplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum, vt quibus ad iſta deſunt parentes aut filij, ab vna is exhibeatur • ia matre Eccleſia. Lib. 9. Confeſſ. c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge, &c. S. Ioan. Damaſc. Orat. quod defuncti Miſsis inuentur. Quod quidem citra vllam controuerſiam Catholica & Apoſtolica Eccleſia ſine vlla ambiguitate retinet &c. Vt conſuetudinis teſtem • llum cito. The like appeares by the Liturgies. Where obſerue that I reflect preciſelie, vpon the termes of your Article, which condemneth vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the Prieſt for the Quick and the Dead to haue remiſsion of paine or guilt. If this be a blaſphemous fable, the whole world was in Errour. So commonlie was it ſaid and eſteemed lawfull; and ſo vniuerſallie frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table, verit. decima. The Proteſtants Apol. tract. 1. Sect. 3. ſubd. 4. and Sect. 7. ſubd. 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct. li. 2. c. 24. angl. Bible, being vnderſtood in their natiue, proper ſence, doWhat neceſsitie there is to enquire into the true ſence of theſe words (This is my bodie) will beſt appeare in the after-examination of the diuers conſequences of your owne ſence, to wit, your doctrine of tranſſubſtantiation, corporall and materiall preſence, propitiatorie ſacrifice, and proper adoration: all which depend vpon your Romish expoſition of the former words of Chriſt. The iſſue then w • ll be this, that if the words be certainelie true in a proper and litterall ſence, then wee are to yeild to you the whole cauſe. Morton Instit. of Maſſe. li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugne the Sacrifice of Maſſe, had his inſtructions from the Deuil. as doth appeare ſtill by his owne booke de Miſſa Priuata, p. 228 Ego coram vobis And p. 230 • . • n ſumma. Edit. Wittemb. anno. 1558. where he puts d • wne the Deuils arguments; amongſt which one is againſt vnbloodie Sacrifice; Contra inſtitutionem Chriſti, Miſſa vſus es pro Sacrificio, &c. §. quarto. confeſſedlie make for, and confirme it. Now, should wee ſubſcribe to your Article, wee should contradict all this. Wee should contradict open Scripture, interpreted by the whole Chriſtian world, and by theAnd this Spirit is the Holie Ghoſt, Ioh. 14. & 16. Spirit in it. And whilſt you ſollicite vs ſo to do, what do you but abbet a priuate Spirit? and this too, importunelie, vnſeaſonablie; then, when you denie to the whole Church power to define the veritie, euen of this cauſe; or to declare the ſence of Scripture touching it, in her Councels oecumenicall.

I am not diſpoſed to beleeue that a part is greater thē the whole. The Authoritie ofEngland alſo before Caluin was borne, beleeued the Sacrifice of the maſſe; and offered it for the quick and the deade. See the Prudentiall Ballance. all Natiōs Chriſtian, moues me more then the Authoritie of one Other Proteſtants admit not your Confeſsion. onlie, now deuided and apart. Neither can I be perſwaded that corpus doth ſignifie a ſigne or figure onlie; or that bread properlie, was crucified for my ſinnes. I am not wiſer then heeretofore men haue beene; not wiſer then the Church. I reuerence her decrees, and am readie to be directed by her. Whether thoſe you pretend vnto, were ſo too, will appeare in the diſcuſſion of the Controuerſie wee now deale • n, which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herſelf.

Of ſuch Councels, your fellowes haue queſtioned many things: as firſt, who hath power to call them? ſecondlie, what persōs are to be in them? thirdlie, who is to preſide? Fourthlie, whether they be infallible in their decrees? fiftlie which be ſuch Councels? The Controuerſie wee are to ſpeake of is none of theſe; but onlie what learned men, Catholikes, haue deliuered & taught about the infallibitie of a Coū cell, ſuppoſing it be intirelie oecumenicall: which ſuppoſition being premiſed,The four firſt, your ſelues honour with the title of oecumenicall. [and it is confeſſedlie a poſſible ſuppoſition,] the Queſtion is this, Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion, haue openlie and to the knowledge of thoſe to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church, auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie • ecumenicall, ſuch as were generall • nd approued, that in decrees of Faith, they might miſtake and • rre? Wee diſpute not, you and 〈◊〉 , now, whether this, or that, Councell, be ſuch a Councell. That is another matter. Nor, whether ſuch a Councell [ſup • oſe it be, and define,] be infal • ble. But; what, men, Catho • ike Deuines, haue auerred • ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall, entire, and • pproued.

The termes of the Queſtion • e remarkable. Councels; not whatſoeuer; but, generall and • pproued, or entirelie oecume • icall. Deuines of the Catholike • ommunion; not Hereticks. Wee know that Hereticks re • uſe entire approued Councels. Matters of Faith; not matters • f Fact. Auouched openlie; the knowledge of the cauſe goes before the ſentence of the iudge.

Your pretence is that ſome Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue ſpecified in the Quaere. Which if it were true, [that I note this by the way,] the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithſtanding, continue firme. The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre: and negligence of diſcipline in a Superiour, is a diſtinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much leſſe could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull ſpeaches if any could be found: and leaſt of all by obſcure paſſages. Dark and hard ſpeaches may be found in Vide S. Hieron. Apolog. adu. Ruf. li. 2. Fieri poteſt vt— vel certè antequam in Alexandria quaſi daemonium meridianum Arius naſceretur, innocenter quaedam & minus cautè loqun • i ſunt, & quae non poſsint peruerſarum hominum calumniam declinare. vide S. Aug. de Praedeſt. Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers, that ſeeme to make againſ • ſuch tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall; and ſome Fathers haue doubted of, ſome • aue denied,Euſeb. Hiſt. Eccleſ. li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron. de Script. Eccleſ. & in Ep. ad Dard. Bilſon Suru. p. 664. See the Diſp. pag. 431. bookes of Scri • ture, which all now beleeue • o be Canonicall; wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-au •• oritie the like should haue • appened, the tenet of Aſſiſtan • e giuen to them in their de • rees of faith, being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture, and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradi •• on then you can shew for di • ers parts of Scripture which • ou do beleeue to be diuine, • ere ſtill (euen by you in like • anner] to be admitted and • aintained: vnles you think it • wfull to reiect thoſe Books al •• , becauſe once doubted of or • enied; and neuer to beleeue • at, which might with a pre • nce of authoritie, be oppo •• d or contradicted.

Thus I could anſwer, and • are the labour to talke further of the matter:Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becauſ • you wrong ſome that be lea • ned worthie Authors, and ſome Fathers too; leaſt you fin • adherents that will beleeu • you [to the preiudice of the • ſelues, and others] vpon yo • bare word, when they ſ •• none contradict and confu • that you boaſt of, I will ſuru •• the citations.

Our diſpute in this matte • is to be of Catholikes; it is [as b • fore was noted] impertine •• to talke of others; and of ſuc • as in plaine termes haue auouch • and maintained what you pr • tend they did. Wee know th • ſome haue beene miſtaken 〈◊〉 great matters, and yet cont • nued in the Church, either b • cauſe the thing was not ſuff • cientlie brought to light, [ 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuin • faith be not at all times equa • lie propoſed) or becauſe they were readie to ſubmit themſelues, As in the Queſtiōs of the Canon of Scripture, of Baptiſme giuen by Hereticks, &c. and conforme their iudgment, as ſoone as the Church declared her ſelf. Wee know • oo, that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith; and of theſe, ſome haue falne into Hereſie or Atheiſme, wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach; and before, in all ages, • uen the primitiue. Others ha • e diſcouered their tempta • ions, with all the motions of • heir vnderſtanding, to and • ro: concealing onlie the finall • eſolution or euent. Of which • nfirmitie, ſome, (and not wi • hout ſcandall) haue exhibited • hemſelues by their writings, • ublicke ſpectacles to the • orld. With thoſe you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle; being to • peake of ſuch onlie (if any can • e found,) as haue openlie denied, the infallibilitie aboue ſpecified, and yet enioyed the communion of the Church, notwithſtanding ſuch a knowne deniall.

She doth not thruſt out of her communion, one, who doth onlie propoſe his doubtes, to be reſolued; nor yet, if by way of diſputation, he venters to far, but without auouching, eſpeciallie when this is donne with ſubmiſsion to her iudgment: or, if he ſo conceale his mind, or vtter himſelf ſo, that nothing can be directlie proued againſt him. Secret and concealed thoughts, she cannot look into. Euerie one is to be preſumed good, vnles the contrarie may be proued. As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church, are lawfullie preſumed to haue receaued her tenets, vnles it be made appeare otherwiſe.

Though it be true that ſome who liue amongſt vs o • herwhile, be not of vs. Some • o beare themſelues for Ca • holikes, who be in their hear • es Atheiſtes, or Heretikes. There be, no doubt,Ipſe Satanas transfigurat ſe in Angelum lucis. Non eſt ergo magnum ſi miniſtri eius tranſfigurentur velut miniſtri iuſtitia. 2. Corint. 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi: & ex vobis vnus diabolus eſt? Ioan. 6. rauening wolues in sheeps-clothing ſome; and the Paſtors driue them • ot away, becauſe they know • hem not. The Diſciples knew • ot that one in the companie was a Deuil. Wee are heere to • reat of things manifeſt; and to • he Church; and ſo farre, that • hey might be legallie proued againſt the men when they we • e • e liuing, and exteriorlie en • oyed the benefit of Commu • ion: or, are now to be ſeene 〈◊〉 their books, (bookes not • enſured,) ſo cleerlie that it is • nexcuſablie vndeniable. Your • elf, I ſuppoſe, would require no leſſe euidence to condemne a man (and in ſo great a matter,) after death when he can ſpeake no more for himſelf, then was neceſſarie toReus non antè condemnandus eſt quā ſi idoneis teſtibus, vel apertiſsimis documentis, vel indicijs indubitatis & luce clarioribus cō uict is fuerit; aut propria cōfeſsione, &c. Vide legem fi C. de Probationibus. & l. Qui ſententiam 16. C. de poe • . Neq • e manifeſtò conſtet incurriſſe in ſententiam excomun: quod nullo modo poteſt occultari, aut per aliquod re •• edium iur • s excuſari: &c. Extra. Mart V. Adeu • anda. condemne him when he was aliue.

To vndertake this Question in the latitude that I do, is more then was neceſſarie for the defence of a generall tradition • more then can be showne for diuers partes of the New teſtamen • by you receaued: but the powe • of the veritie will appeare th • better when it is found to hau • bene ſo vniuerſallie manifeſt and ſo commonlie receaued that none, by the Church eſteemed Orthodoxe in their •• mes, haue beene euer known • (though there were ſtill occaſion to looke vpon the authoritie of ſuch Councels) openl • to contradict it and auouch th • contrarie. Neither could I well refuſe (it is a duetie in him that hath reaped benifit by their • abours) to come abroad, and defend the iuſt honour of Per • ons wrongd, who be not a • iue now to maintaine their owne credit.

APPROBATIO.

IN hoc libro, cui titulus A Relectiō &c. nihil eſt fidei Catholicae, aut bo •• s moribus contrarium, ſed multa quae • eritatem Catholicam confirmant. Qua • opter dignum cenſui, qui praelo com • ittatur. Actum Duaci 22. Maij 1635.

GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theol. Doctor, & eiuſdem regius ordinariuſque Profeſſor, Collegiatae Eccleſiae S. Petri Praepoſitus, Vniuerſitatis Duacenſis Cancellarius, & librorum Cenſor.
Ex Diſput. li. 4. c. 5. pag. 377.

OFfer not to cite any knowne Schiſmatike, whoſe opinion is generallie by all Deui • e • reiected; cite no booke but what is at leaſt tolerated in the Church: and haue a care you proue that the man whom you cite, doth, himſef, directlie and openlie, aſſeuere and affirme the thing in Queſtion. Becauſe it were but loſſe of time to ſpeake of others: ſuch as either had their writings cenſured when they came to be knowne; or durſt not openlie auouch what they would, to you, ſeeme to ſay. There are degrees in leauing the communion of the Church; and the ſame partie, at one time may be in it; and at other time, either out; or in ſuch an errour, as, if obſtinacie were added to it, would take him out. Neither can the ſubtile dealing of any diſcontented perſon, if he chance to ſtep ouer shoes, preiud • ce our cauſe, or be taken for the tenet of the Church, vnles the Church approue it: and error it neuer did or will approue. So there, by way 〈◊〉 preuention; howbeit you were not pleaſed to take notice of it And in the end of the leafe are cited ſome 〈◊〉 Ockams words, Whoſe authoritie you ſcan firſt; a • ſo will I, for a reaſon (not yours) Which Will quickl • show it ſelf.

THE QVESTION. Whether any Deuines of the Catholike Communion, haue openly and to the knowledge of thoſe to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church, auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie oecumenicall, ſuch as were generall and approued, that in Decrees of Faith, they might miſtake and erre?

YOV haue vndertaken the Affirmatiue and will be Plaintiff. Your inſtance is in Auſten, Vincentius Lirinenſis, Athanaſius, amongſt the Auncient: and in O • kam and Waldenſis amongſt the later. To the ſame purpoſe others do cite Cameracenſis, Panormi ••• Stapleton, Cuſanus, Clemangis, and Canus, and Baro who profeſſedlie diſputes the matter, ioynes Optatus and Antoninus.

Franciſcus Picus is alleaged ſome where too by the ſaid Miniſter, reciting the Opinions of ſome of theſe men. What Councels he ſpeakes of, I do not intend to diſpute: being to looke into the Authors them ſelues; and out of their owne Writings; not out of other mens, to learne their mind.

You will not be diſpleaſed if I put the places downe as Baro cites them: that ſuch as haue hi • booke, which is publike, may compare, and iudge • as they ſee cauſe.

§. I.

1. Ockam (in a booke of his that is prohibited) ſaies that ſome Chriſtians, comprehending Hereticks vnder the name, ſeeme to think generall Councels, ſome, might erre. 2. F • brings in behalf of thoſe men, an argument • proue it: which argument is manifeſtlie de • cient. In like manner he brings arguments proue that which he confeſſeth to be falſe; as thought this alſo to be. 3. He recites an op • nion whereof he ſaies he knew no abbettor, th • ſpeakes doubtfullie of the manner of aſsistin • 〈◊〉 and himſelf auoucheth the Authoritie of ſincere generall Councels. He toucheth obiter the question, who doth approue and how, and who declares them to be generall. 4. His proceedings in this worke diſcommended.

QVia omnes Chriſtiani ſentire videntur quod tota multitudo Chriſtianorum haereticari non poteſt; quidam autem ſecundò quod nec Concilium generale: aliqui verò tertiò quod nec Rom. Eccleſia: nonnulli autem quartò quod nec Collegium Cardinalium: aliqui verò quintò quod nec etiam Papa potest hatetica pollui prauitate. Ideo de iſtis quinque quid ſentiant Chriſtiani cupio vt mihi reueles. Baro. p. 359. ex Ockam, dial. li. 5. c. 1.

1. OCKAM. All Chriſtians doe ſeeme to thinke that the whole multitude of Chriſtians cānot become heretick: but ſome (Chriſtians do ſeeme to thinke) that neither a generall Councell.

Here firſt is not determined what generall Councells thoſe people meane; whether approued, or not approued by the ſee Apoſtolike. Se • ondly it is not ſaid abſolutly that they doe thinke and maintaine that Councells oecumenicall may propo •• e and teach hereſie; but that ſome • oe ſeeme to thinke that Generall Councels (whether ſome, or all, is not here expreſſed) may haereticari, or haeretica prauitate pollui; haereticate, (to keepe his termes) or, be stained with hereticall prauitie. Thirdly it is not expreſſed who theſe Christians were; whether Catholikes, or Schiſmatickes: And, in caſe an excōmunicated persō (ſeeking how to maintaine Schiſmaticall proceedings) in a book not tollerated, butIndex lib. prohibit. Conc. Trid. expreſly forbidden, should, not avouch, but ſeeme to think that Councels, though generall, might erre; this could not make good what yo • profeſſe to proue, vzt, that men 〈◊〉 our Communion, haue, in their curra • works, openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels. Much leſſe can the paſſage alleaged ſerue your turne, if the word Chriſtians be not heere taken ſo ſtrictly as your inference doth ſuppoſe; but ſo farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too; for then it may be true that ſome Chriſtians doe ſeeme to thinke ſo, and ye • no Catholikes thinke ſo: there being other Chriſtians in the world beſide Catholikes, euen in his opinion that ſaid, (and was it not the ſameQuaeſo vt mihi reueles, an aliqui ſentiant quod tota multitudo Chriſtianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foedari. Mag. Iudaei, Sarraceni, & etiam Pagani firmiſsimè tenent fidem Chriſtianā eſſe erroneā. Diſc. Non intendo quaerere de illis ſed de Chriſtianis; ſub Chriſtianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo. Mag. Neſcio aliquem Chriſtianum qui hoc teueat. Ockam. dialog. par. 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you) that vnder the name of Chriſtians he did alſo comprehend heretikes: who deſired alſo in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions, of whomſoeuer, Catholikes, or Heretikes; yea and ſometimes others, • hat no Nolo vt quod tenes in mente, reueles: ſed reſpōſiones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque, non differas recitate &c. ſententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum & Haereticorum, & interdum alia quae à nullo Chriſtiano tenentur, licet poſsint habere Catholicos & Haereticos defendentes, te deſidero recitare: ſic enim multiplicius & efficacius exercitabimus ſtudiorum ingenia. Idem c. 34. Christians hold. This for your argument, of omnes and quidam Chriſtiani, ſome Chriſtians and all Chriſtians.

VNa ſola eſt Eccleſia militans quae contra fidem errare non poteſt, quia de ſola vniuerſali militante inuenitur in Scripturis authenticis quod errare non potest. Concilium autem generale licet ſit pars Eccleſiae militantis vniuerſalis tamen non eſt Eccleſia vniuerſalis. Igitur temerarium eſt dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest. Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam. dial.

2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of thoſe ſome Chriſtians, whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did ſeeme to thinke might be proued; The vniuerſall diffuſed Church onlie i • vnerrable: but a generall Councell i • not the vniuerſall diffuſed Church Ergo. In which argument the propoſition or is Maior falſe, as our Deuines doe proue by playne teſtimonie • of ſcripture; and our aduerſaries 〈◊〉 neceſſitie muſt acknowledg a • much, vnles they will oppoſe them ſelues to the Apoſtles and Father and Paſtors of the Church, all together. For, if onely the Symbolica • or vniuerſall Church, diffuſe through all Nations and times, hat • the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith, it followes, tha • the Paſtors and Fathers and Apoſtles, all conſenting, are not to b • relied on, as a proponent infallible ſince theſe be not the whole ( 〈◊〉 they neuer ſo glorious a part of the Church vniuerſall. Howbeit t • Queſtion here is not of that argument or propoſition; but, whethe • Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells; or, whether he doth name, or giue other ſufficient notice of, any Catholike that denied it. He names here none • t all; neither doth he ſay that they were Catholikes who ſeemed to thinke &c. and leaſt any should ſuſpect him, he profeſſeth in the perſon of the other Dialogiſt to be of theQuamui • firmiſſimè putē quod Concilium Generale haereticari non poteſt, tamen rationes pro aſſertione contraria libenti animo auſcultabo. Mag. Quod Concilium generale poſſit errare contra fidem rationibus & exemplis videtur poſſe probari. Prima autem ratio talis eſt. Vna eſt ſola vniuerſalis Eccleſia &c. (vt pag. 5.) Ockam. li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò ſolutionem apud ipſum innenies cap 9. & habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam. minde that a generall Councell cannot • rre in faith.

The like proceeding you may obſerue in him els-where; as, in the laſt Chapter of this booke, where he bringes reaſons (and leaues them without anſwer too,) to proue that the whole multitude of Chriſtians hauing vſe of reaſon (paſtors and people, men and women) may erre againſt the faith; and that it is teme • arious to ſay they will neuer doe ſo; though he there confeſſe this which • e goeth about to proue, to Neſcio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat. Diſc. Licet neſcias Chriſtianum aliquem hoc tenere, tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris. Mag. Ad quaeſtionem falſam nulla ratio niſi ſophiſtica poteſt adduci. Diſc. Concedo quod pro aſſertione praedicta nulla valet ratio niſi ſophiſtica allegari; tamen ſaepè rationes apparentes & difficiles ad ſoluendum pro falſis inducuntur. Vnde qualeſcunque inuenire coneris. Mag. Quod tota multitudo Chriſtianorum vſum rationis habentium poſsit contra fidem errare, tali ratione probatur &c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium eſt aſſerere quod nunquam tota multitudo Chriſtianorum vſum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit. Ibidem in fine. be •• lſe (as it is indeed, and manifeſtly againſt the Scripture, Daniel 7. I ſay 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Epheſ. 4. Apoc. 20.) and that he knewe no Chriſtian at all (he liued before the Proteſtant Religion) that held it.

ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo aduerſatur: tenens quod Scripturae diuin • contentae in Biblia, & eiuſdem ſacrae Scripturae ſcriptoribus, & Vniuerſall Eccleſiae, atque Apoſtolis, abſque vlla dubitatione in omnibus eſt credendum. Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel ſanctitate praepolleant, eſt in omnibus abſque omni exceptione fides neceſſariò adhibenda. Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali ſi eſſet congregata vniuerſalis Eccleſia, no • decretis aut decretalibus vel aſſertionibus ſummorum Pontificum, nec Doctorum dictis, (ſiue fuerint ab Eccleſia approbati ſiue non fuerint approbati) eſt neceſſariò credulitas in omni dicto & caſu abſque omni exceptione praeſtanda: Licet in multis negari non debeant, & quoad multa Chriſtiani ipſis credere teneantur. Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial. 3. par. tract. 1. li. 3. c. 4.

3. THe third thing obiected is, that he mentions an Opinion holding amongſt many other things, that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it ſaies, and in euery caſe without exception. Were this his owne tenet, our cauſe were not hurt, for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church, approued, much leſſe in all Councels that are ſtiled generall, ſuch an vnlimited and vniuerſall infallibilitie as theſe words import, in omni dicto & caſu, abſque omni exceptione, in all they ſay, and in all caſes without exception, neither indeed doth Ockam there mentiō that cited pag. praeced. opinion aſſertiuè as holding; but recitatiuè as relating it: and this too, not as the opinion of any Catholike Deuine (for he ſaies there in the perſon of the other Dialogiſt, that he neuer before heard orSi eſt aliqua opinio quae omnibus obuiet ſupradictis, ipſam audire deſidero, vt mihi detur occaſio intelligendi profundiùs veritatem. Mag. Eſt quaedā opinio quae viam eligens mediā &c. (vt pag. 8.) Diſc. Iſtam opinionem aliàs non audiui, nec legi. Ockam. 3. p lib. 3. cap. • reade it,) but as an opinion which a ſearcher of curious queſtions Vt mihi detur occaſio intelligendi profundiùs vertatem. Ibidem vt ſuprà. Vt cognoſcam quod aliquid apprentiae vel veritatis contineat, ipſam intendo aliqualit tecum diſcutere. Ibidem. Nolo vt quod tenes in me • reueles, ſed reſponſiones aliquas quae cogitari vel tene potuerint à quocunque, non differas recitare. Mag. Hoc p • cto vt omnia quae narrabo non aliter accipiantur 〈◊〉 quod aliquis quaeſtionum difficilium indagator po • dicendo computare conſona veritati, quomodo ad pr • dictas inſtantias reſpondere contingat, oſtendam. Vo • enim quod dicenda Fratri Magiſtro (Michaeli de C • na, Generali Minorum. vide prolog) & eius ſequacib (Ockamo, cateriſque) nequaquam imponas. Sicut praecedentibus multas recitaui ſententias quae aſſertio • bus Domini Ioannis & ſuorum ſequacium obuiant •• nifeſtè; quas tamen Frater Magiſter & ſui ſequaces ſchiſmate contra Ioannem illi adhaerentes) minimè opin • tur: imò nonnullas impugnare nituntur. Ita in parte • tura operis huius (ſi tu volueris) plura referam q • Frater Magiſter & ſui ſequaces ſatagunt improbare. D • Quod iſtum modum teneas à principio acceptaui. Q • ſententias contrarias quorumcunque Catholicorum & 〈◊〉 reticorum &c. (vt ſupra ad lit. c.) Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c • Perſonam recitantis aſſumas, nec tantùm vnam ſed pl • res quando tibi videbitur, ad eandem interrogation • narra ſententias. Sed quod tua ſapientia ſentit, mihi • lis nullatenus indicare. Idem in Prologo Dial. Affectas video) quatenus ex ſerie dicendorum nemo poſſit coll • quam partem diſſentientium circa fidem catholicam 〈◊〉 putem iuſtiorem, quod tuae ſatisfaciens voluntati • cum alijs quae vel efflagitas vel affectas, ſeruare cura • Ibidem. might inuent and bringe into diſcourſe as an occaſion to penetrate the deeper into the trueth, which is moſt diligently ſought when it is moſt cunningly contradicted; and appeares more cleerly in the vnderſtanding when all errors are diſtinctly remou • from it.

In propoſing the grounds of that • pinion (whoſe arguments himſelfe • ppon another occaſion and in a li •• e matter, had before1. p. li. 5 c. 9. Nec ex ſanctitate nec ex fidei firmitate Cardinalium (Epiſcoporum) maiori quam habuerunt Apoſtoli, eſt quod Collegiū Cardinalium (Concilium Epiſcoporum) errare non poteſt, ſed ex promiſsione Chriſti. Ibidem. Dignitas eccleſiaſtica nec ſanctificat nec inobliquabilē in fide inſtituit aliquam perſonam, tamen Chriſtus praeſeruat ab errore contra fidem aliquod collegium habens aliquam ſpecialem dignitatē; quē ad modū regio Chriſtiana nec ſanctificat nec inobliquabilem red •• aliquam perſonam, Chriſtus tamen praeſeruat collegium ſuſcipientium religionem Chriſtianam ne erret contra fidem. Ibidem. Ad decimam dicitur dupliciter, vn • modo quod Collegium Archiepiſcoporum & Epiſcoporum non poteſt contra fidem errare, & iſti conced •• quod praeter congregationem fidelium ſunt plura colleg • particularia, quae contra fidem errare non poſſunt, ſcilice Collegium Cardinalium & Collegium Epiſcoporum. Aliter dicitur quod Collegium Cardinalium quantum 〈◊〉 aliqua eſt eminentiùs Collegio Epiſcoporum licet qua • • um ad aliqua ſit inferius ipſo; & ideo licet Cardinal • valeant eligi ad Epiſcopatus, poterit tamen Collegiu • Epiſcoporum vel ipſorum Cardinalium eſſe confirmatum in fide. Ad vndecimam dicitur quod de ſola Eccleſs • militante in generali aſſeritur quod non poteſt con •• fidem errare, cum hoc tamen ſtat quod ſit aliqua Eccleſ •• particularis quae non poteſt errare contra fidem; Sicut conceditur quod congregatio fidelium errare non poteſt, 〈◊〉 tamen ſimul cum hoc conceditur: quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non poteſt. Ibidem anſwered) • e diſcouers it to apprehend that •• e infallibilitie, (ſuch as it doth im •• gne) depends vpon ſome neweEugen • ab Ammedera dixit, & hoc ego idem cenſeo haeretic • baptizandos eſſe. (Auguſtinus) huic reſpondetur; Sed no • hoc cenſet Eccleſia, cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concili veuelauit. Quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem ſapiebatis, ſe • quia in vobis charitas ſalua erat in vnitate permanebat • S. Aug. li. 6. de bapt. contra Donatist c 39. •• uelation; and then brings argu • ents againſt this way; whereas • ckam knew and had himſelf noted •• at Catholikes defend infallibilitie • therwiſe. And that ſame Opinion, for of it I muſt ſpeake and not of him, ſince he doth not owne it, that ſame Opinion I ſay, maintayning as it doth, the vniuerſall Church preſent to be infallible, and the decrees approued by it to be of authoritie vncontrouleable, ſo farre that none mayEſt quaeda • opinio tene • s quod Scripturae diuinae contentae in Biblia & eiuſdem ſacrae Scripturae ſcriptoribus, & vniuerſali Eccleſia, atque Apoſtolis, abſque vlla dubitatione in omnib • eſt credendum. Nullis verò alijs quantacumque doctrin • vel ſanctitate praepolleant eſt in omnibus abſque om • exceptione fides neceſſariò adhibenda. Ita quod nec i • Concilio &c. (vt ſupra pag. 8.) Ockam. dial. p 3. li 3. c. 4. doubt of thē, muſt acknowledge another way; for neither can this infallibilitie in matter of faith • e attributed to humane induſtrie; • or will it (the opinion I meane) ad • itte a continuall dependance vpon •• uelations, to be made alwaies to his purpoſe.

True it is that it ſeekes an anſwe • to the argument of Gods prouidence and protection, grounded in ou • Sauiours promiſe; euer labouring to •• de newe wayes; but the iſſue is •• ch as makes any wiſe man afraid to •• bſcribe. So little faith it hath in Ieſus Chriſt, and his promiſes, that it • eth (and by the mouth of Ockam) •• at the wholeMultitudo Chriſtianorum (dum tamen alij vel ſaltem vnus fidelis remaneat) poteſt inuoluenti periculo haereſis & erroris (alijs exigentibus peccatis ipſorum) exponi. Quibus in haereticam prauitatem labentibus valet ille qui de lapidibus poteſt ſuſcitare filios Abrahae, vel de aliquibus ipſorum aut de alijs quando voluerit numerū Chriſtianorum augere. Idem 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Eſt quoddam periculum tantummodo imminens ſeu circumſtans; & eſt periculum inuoluēs ſeu proſternens. Ibidem. §. Cum autem. multitude of Chri • ans, ſo one man remaine ſound (himſelfe perchance) may be expoſed not 〈◊〉 circumſtant and imminent only, •• t to inuoluing and vanquishing or •• erthrowing danger of Hereſie and errour. In which caſe (quibus in Haere •• am prauitatem labentibus) it will haue God, who of ſtones can raiſe Abraham ſonnes, of theſe or others to make vp his Church anewe.

You may further obſerue if you read Ockam, how the blinde Opinion knowes not where to take footing, or which way to proceed whilſt it • es ſtumbling on: Wee muſt not bel •• ue a Councell ſuprà pag. 8. in all things; ſo it • gins: then, eſpecially c. 7. if they be f •• e in it, as there haue bene ſome ty • ten or twelue: then, it is not neceſſar • c. 8. of euery Councell; then, it is not ne • eſſarie to beleeue that a queſtion of • h is Ibidem alwayes ended by reuelations; then; neither c. 9. perchance 〈◊〉 there be alwaies a reuelation made 〈◊〉 oft as a generall Councell will be he • &c. with ſo many limitations a • cautions, fortè, and ſemper, and q • ties. And againe; it cannot be pro • by this (an argument there brough • that it is c. 11. neceſſarie to beleeue th • the determinations of generall Counc • touching the doubtfull meaning of h • Scripture haue the origen of their true that way by which they were inſpi • to the writers of holy Scripture, wi • much more of like nature. And t • enforced anſwers which Ockam fein • for it, to the grounds of the comm • tenet brought in there in part agai • that new-conceaued blinde error (whereof I haue related p. 13. one,) 〈◊〉 ſo vnworthie of a learned Chriſti • that you may ſee looking on the • well, how, pretending to nouris • he (on better aduiſe) leaues it an • • bortiue; and makes againſt it th • confeſſion: FirſtConcilium generale non debet regulariter occul • è ſeu ſecretè paucis ſcientibus celebrari: ſed vulgandum eſt per vniuerſalē Eccleſiam, hoc eſt per omnes regiones in prouincia in qua ſeu in quibus Catholici cō morantur, generale Concilium conuocari debere, quatenus omnes Catholici tacitè vel expreſſé cō ſentiant, & quaſi authoritatē tribuant vt ad concilium profecturi, eorum nomine circa ordinanda & definienda in Generali Concilio canonicè & catholicè atque ritè procedant; vt meritò quicquid catholicè & licitè ſtatuerint vel definierint, vniuerſali ſtatuatur & definiatur aſſenſu. p. 3. l. 3. c. 13: quando igitur Concilium Generale ritè cō uocatur, & in omnibus catholicè procedit, quicquid fecerit, ab vniuerſali Eccleſia fieri eſt putandum. Ibidem. when a gene • Councell is rightly called and proce • in all things Catholikely and holily (n • ther am I defending others) quicq • fecerit what ſoeuer it shall doe is t • • eemed done by the vniuerſall Church. • he Catholike Church then, it ſee • es in his iudgment, or in the iud • ment of the Opinion, for ſo wee muſt ſpeake of it ſince it wants an author; • engaged in the Councells decrees; • nd conſequently it much concernes him who hath the care of her, (doce • t vos) to take order, the Councell miſtake not; and ſo much' that the • edit of her (cui in omnibus ſuprà pag. 8. abſ • e vlla dubitatione credendum eſt, if •• e opinion take place which you tell vs Ockam held) is ruined with the ſame lapſe, if in eſtimation both are one.

In the ſame place he ſayth thatPoſtquam acta Generalis Concilij per vniuerſos Catholicos populos fuerunt promulgata, ſi nullus contradicens aut impugnans apparet, ſunt putanda ab vniuerſali Eccleſia approbata. p. 3. li. 3. c. 13. autem acta Generalis Concilij non fuerunt apud om • populos Catholicos diligenter expoſita, non eſt dice • dum quòd tale Concilium Generale ſit explicitè ab Eccleſia approbatum, licet ſi ſanctè & catholicè fuerit celebr • tum, poſſit dici implicitè ab vniuerſali Eccleſia approbat •• Ibidem. Quod ſtatuitur vel definitur in Concilio Genera • non ligat vniuerſalem Eccleſiam, niſi per vniuerſale • Eccleſiam fuerit legitimè diuulgatum: & ideò non eſt co •• ſendum explicitè approbatum ab vniuerſali Eccleſia, a • tequam taliter publicetur. Non oportet autem taliter definitum ſingulorum auribus inculcare, ſed ſufficit • ali • publicare quod nullus ſe poſsit, ſi in contrarium vene •• per ignorātiam excuſare Ibid. after the acts of a generall Councell haue been promulgated amongſt all Catholike people, (to promulgate them amongſt Heretiks he did not eſteeme it neceſſarie) if then no man ap •• ares (he ſpeakes ſtill of Catho •• kes) contradicting or impugning, they 〈◊〉 to be eſteemed approued of the vni •• rſall Church. Secondly, Iuxta Sanctorū Pat •• ſententiam, Concilia Generalia, quae ritè, iuſtè, ſanctè 〈◊〉 canonicè celebrata fuerunt, ſunt ab omnibus Catholicis 〈◊〉 notiſsimè ſuſcipienda, amplectenda & veneranda. Ock •• 3. p. li 3. c. 9. thoſe Councells which haue been celebrated, •• derlie, rightlie, holilie, and canoni • llie, are according to the iudgment of the holie Fathers (marke thoſe Authors) moſt deuoutlie te bo receaue • embraced, and reuerenced by all Catholikes. Thirdlie; if Aut Concilium generale catholicè def •• aliquid eſſe credendum, aut erroneè. Si catholicè, nulli li • publicè negare, vel etiam publicè dubitare taliter defi •• tum. Nulli etiam licet pertinaciter occultè vel etiam motaliter de tali definito dubitate. Ibidem. a generall Cou • cell doe Catholikelie (that is in his e • plication ritè, iuſtè, ſanctè, canoni • define ſomething to be beleeued, it 〈◊〉 lawfull for none to denie publikelie, 〈◊〉 publikelie to doubt of the thing ſo de • ned. Neither is it lawefull for any m • ſtubbornelie, occultè, vel etiam men • •• ter, ſecretlie, or as much as mentallie 〈◊〉 doubt of the thing ſo defined. He is • ōne farther now by much then you • n ſuffer; neither will you finde • herein theſe words differ from our •• net; for wee maintaine not the in •• llibilitie of ſuch Councells as pro •• ed againſt that order which is eſ • ntiallie required in a Councell.

By the way; you muſt heere di •• inguish Councels; (if you will not • ake this Opinion to contradict it •• lf:) thoſe which be ſincere and ap •• oued be certaine in their decrees; thoſe that are not, may miſtake. And if there be doubt of any, to which ſort they appertaine, it will •• t haue them obaid. It doth alſo di •• nguish about the decrees of the for •• er ſort, as others do towards Scri • ure; an explicite, and an implicite • th. There is none in your parish • eeues the Scripture all in euerie • t and euerie literall ſence diſtin •• e, explicitè: no not your ſelf ma •• Parſon. And finallie it diſtingui • eth a double approbation of de •• es, one is authenticall, donne by 〈◊〉 Pope: another priuate, by any that is a Scholler: Conſentiens ſubſcripſ • but I should not anticipate.

SI quaeratur quis habet iudicare an concilia fuerint catholicè celebrata? Reſpondetur, quod quia non definirent aliqu • niſi quod poteſt elici ex Scriptu is diuinis, ideo periti in Scr • pturis, & habentes aliarum ſufficientem intelligentiam ſcript • rarum, habent iudicare per modum firmae aſſertionis, quod 〈◊〉 finita abijs ſunt catholicè definita Ba • o. ex Ockami dial.

4. LAſtlie you take occaſion o • of his words, to queſtion wh • shall iudge whether the Counc • haue defined canonicallie or no; 〈◊〉 which caſe wee are not ſo ignora • as to runne out of the Church to H • retickes to learne of them. Neith • doe wee eſteeme William Ockam great an oracle, that, were his doct • ne heerein ſingular, neglecting bo • theQuamuis omnes Epiſcopi orbis terrae praeſentes fuiſſent 3 p. li 3. c. 9. per congregationem quae à multitudine fidelium Generale Cōcilium aeſtimatur. Ibidem. Councell, and the Chur • Et ſi quaeratur quis habet iudica • e an fuerint catholicè celebrata? Reſpondetur, quod quia non definierunt aliquid niſi quod poteſt elici ex Scripturis diuinis, ideo periti in Scripturis & habentes aliarum ſufficientem intelligentiam ſcripturarum, babent iudicare per modū firmae aſſertionis (fortè, aſſentionis) quod definita ab eis ſunt catholicè definita. Summi autem Pontifices ſi non fuerint praeſentes, ſed tantum modo authoritate eorum praeſentibus legatis ipſorum celebrata fuerunt authenticè, iudicare habēt quod catholicè extiterint celebrata. Si autem Summus Pontiſex praeſens fueri • , ſufficit quod authenticet ipſa. Ibidem. adherent to it, wee should g • learne of him what conditions 〈◊〉 neceſſarie to the ſubſiſtence o • Councell, and whether all were 〈◊〉 or no. Yet this is not the Queſtio • It is one thing to diſpute whethe • Prieſt can conſecrate; and another diſpute whether you be a Prieſt. O • thing to diſpute whether a gene • Councell can define infalliblie, ano • her to diſpute which is a generall Councell. The controuerſie wee ſpe • ke of is about the former, wherein • atholikes maintaine the affirma • ue, and you shall neuer proue that • kam held the contrarie by his Dia • gues whilſt his Dialogues are extant. 〈◊〉 fine if it be obiected that he hath • t expreſlie and profeſſedlie anſwe • d diuers argumēts which he bringes • ainſt Councells, this will not con • de that he held againſt ſuch as • ere lawfull and approued, and conſequentlie that he did herein contradict himſelfe: for l. 5. c. vlt. he beings arguments to proue that the • hole multitude of beleeuers, as • any as haue vſe of reaſon, may er • concludingſuprà ad lit. d vide etiam quae habentur, l • t • h it is temerarious to • rme that it will neuer be: and • ſe arguments as I told you once • ore he leaues vnanſwered; not • hſtanding that in the beginning 〈◊〉 did acknowledge none but So • ticall could be brought: and • t the thing was falſe, and that he • ewe no Christian at all, Catholike or • etike that held it. If you thinke that in his minde he was of that opinion, you cannot approue the Spirit, oppoſing all Chriſtians and his owne conſcience too: If you do not think he was, then let not his ſeeming want of anſwer, or indiſcreet and ſcandalous propoſing of doubts, moue you to iudge, (neglecting the caueat he gaue in theſuprà ad lit. f. beginning) that in them he deliuered his owne minde. Much leſſ • should you adore this vnhappie worke as a piece heauenlie-inſpired for the worlds learning, conſidering how in it, like a ſerpent, h • rowles himſelfe into windings ſtriuing ſtill to hide his head; and tha • hauing turbulentlie ſnatcht pen i • hand to maintaine a Schiſme, he beginnes the worke with the commendation of his owne greatQuod tua Sapientia ſentit. Ibidem. wiſdome. For my part I should no • wonder to finde in ſuch a work • fouler errours then wee ſpeake 〈◊〉 hetherto.S. Hier. in Tit. c. 3. There is no ſciſme whic • feignes not vnto it ſelf ſome Hereſie (S • Ierome ſaies,) that it may ſeeme iuſt • to haue departed from the Church.

§. II.

1. Petrus Cameracenſis reciteth diuers opinions, out of Ockam: whereof one is that of Councels, allreadie handled. 2. He ſaid, in his yonger age, diſputatiuè not aſſertiuè, that the infallibilitie of other Church beſides the vniuerſall could not be cōuinced out of Scriptu • re. What, he thought of the point it ſelf, he declared afterwards. 3. He did not hold that the whole multitude of Chriſtians, Clerks and (4.) Laicks, might fall from the true faith.

OMnes fideles in eo communiter conſentire videntur, quod tota Eccleſia ſiue multitudo omnium Chriſtianorum, hae • eticari non poteſt, ſiue contra fidem errare. Baro. p. 363. ex • lliacenſ • . Octaua aſſertio eſt, quod etiam Concilium generale • oteſt contra fidem errare, quia ipſo ſic errante adhuc staret •• liquos extra concilium non errare, & per conſequens fidem Eccleſia non deficere. Ibidem ex eodem.

1. PETRVS CAMERACENSIS. This man (if the v • ſperiae and the Reſumptiō of it, be his) is brought, first, to beare witnes that in his time there were contrarie opinions about the authoritie of Councells. The reaſon why they call vpon him is, becauſe amongſt aſſertions which he relates in his Veſperiall Quaeſtion, one is, that a generall Councell may erre againſt faith. Wherevnto I anſwer, firſt that wee maintaine not the infallibilitie of all that beare the name. Secōdlie he dothRecitandae ſunt quaedam aſſertiones circa iſtam materiam plurimum differentes. Prima eſt in qua cōmuniter omnes fideles videntur cō • enire quod tota Eccleſia ſiue multitudo omniū Chriſtianorū haereticari non poteſt, ſiue cōtra fidē errare. Secūda quod nec etiā Concilium Generale. Tertia quod nec Romana Eccleſia Quarta quod nec Collegium Cardinalium. Quinta quod nec Papa canonicè intrans. Aliae autem ſunt quinque aſſertiones praedictis valdè repugnantes. Vna eſt quod Papa intrans canonicé, haereticari poteſt &c. Octaua quod etiam Concilium Generale &c. Nona eſt, quod tota multitudo non ſolum Cardinalium, ſed generaliter omnium virorum poteſt ſic errare, & fides Eccleſi • e in ſolis mulieribus conſeruari Decima eſt, quod tota multitudo Chriſtianorum no • ſolum virorum, ſed etiam mulierum vſum rationis habentium poteſt errare contra fidem; quia hoc ſtante adhuc in paruulis baptizatis poſſunt ſaluari omnes promiſsione • Chriſti de fide Eccleſiae vſque ad conſummationem ſaeculi. Petrus Cameracenſis Quaest. Vesp. recite aſſertions onely in that place, and not approue them, as appeares by his words recitandae ſunt aſſertiones circa materiam iſtam plurimum differentes, I muſ • recite certaine aſſertions about thi • matter that are much different; or, as after he doth expound it, repugnantes, ſome repugnant to other, and, if in his iudgment they be repugnant, you haue no reaſon to conceaue he doth approoue them all. Thirdlie, he doth not name any Catholike author holding that aſſertion, which you ſpeake of, or the reſt which followe; but tooke them out ofEx 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35. Ochams Dialogues, whence heConfer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. & 35. cum Quaeſtione Veſperiali & Quaeſtione de Reſumpta Petri Camer. tranſcribes, and ſome times verbatim diuers peeces of theſe queſtiōs which you would make vſe of. Neither doth he omitt to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as haue vſe of reaſon erring poſsiblie all together againſt faith, which Ocham himſelfe had ſaid was falſe, and the reaſons for it, thoſe which Ockam giues, he calls apparentes, ſeeming, yet himſelfe in the end of this QueſtionEx praedictis ſequuntur aliquae propoſitiones corollariae: Prima eſt, quod ſemper in Eccleſia vniuerſali erunt plures adulti illuſtrati veritate fidei. Secunda eſt, quod ſemper in Eccleſia Vniuerſali erunt plures iuſti formati virtute ſpe • . Tertia quod ſemper in Eccleſia Vniuerſali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propoſitio patet quia &c. Quast. Veſper. contradicts it, and maintaines the contrarie.

EX ſacra Scriptura non conuincitur quod ſit aliqua Eccleſia particularis quae regulae legis Chriſti ſemper conformetur. Baro p. 363. ex Alliac. Quaeſt. Veſp. Concilium generale pote • defformari legi Christi. idem p. 364. ex Quaest. Reſumpta. Eccleſia Romana quae diſtinguitur à tota congregatione fideliu • ſicut pars à toto, potest haereticari. Ibidem ex eadem quaſt.

2. THe ſecond thing obiected is, that he thought it could not be conuinced out of Scripture that any Church diſtinct from the vniuerſall, is alwaies free from errour; whence is inferd that in his opinion it cānot be conuinced out o • Scripture that a generall Councel • is alwaies free. I anſwere, first, we • maintaine not all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall. Secondlie it is one thing to ſaie lawfull Councells are free from errour in definition, and an other thing to ſaie that wee can proue this by Scripture▪ it is one thing to ſaie the Epistle of S. Iames hath ſacred authoritie, and another thing to ſaie that by Scripture you can proue it. Wherefore ſuppoſe this Author had ſaid in his yonger daies that he thought the infallibilitie of full and lawfull Councells could not be proued ex • acra Scriptura, by Scripture, it doth • ot follow that he denied their in •• llibilitie. Thirdlie what he ſaith in • hat Queſtion is deliuered (they beHaec dicta ſint de tertia concluſione & ſuis adiunctis: & de tota iſta quaestione ſolùm diſputatiuè & non aſſertiuè. Petrus Camer. Quaeſt. de Reſumptâ, ſine. his owne words) diſputatiuè, •• on aſſertiuè; by waie of diſpute, not • y waie of affirmation; wherefore, if • ou wronge him not, you muſt not • ie he held that Councells infallibi • tie (ſuch Councells as had all con • tions neceſſarie) could not be pro • ed (yea and againſt a ſtubborne •• uerſarie ſufficientlie conuinced) • ut of Scripture. Fourthlie, this which • as ſaid not aſſertiuè but onelie diſ •• tatiuè, he ſubmitted to the iud •• ment Non eſt ergo quò ſecuriùs fugiam quā filius ad matrē, filius Eccleſiae ad matrem Eccleſiam; &c. Ad hanc igitur cō fugiens & ſua lege regulari •• piens, me & dicta mea omnia ſuae & ſuorum filiorum tam • ſentium quam abſentium charitatiuae correctioni committo: • ſub hac & alijs proteſtationibus fieri conſuetis quas ſup • co haberi pro repetitis, gratia breuitatis, ad quae • onis reſponſionem accedo. Idem Quaeſt. Veſper. in prin •• . of the Church, therely re • acting or diſauowing (according 〈◊〉 the manner of the ſchooles, yet in •• e) what in this diſputation might •• rchance eſcape amiſſe, either for •• e ſubſtance, or the manner of his ſpeech. And finallie, being after much more ſtudie and reading of Scriptures publikelie in the nature o • Profeſſor, made Bishop and Cardinall he was called to the Counce • ofActa Conc. Conſtant. Seſſ. 20. Conſtance, and there wit • the reſt of the Bishops, he ſufficientlie made knowne that he though all were bound to beleeue what 〈◊〉 generall Councell, and particularl • that of Conſtance, did declare touching faith. If you reade the interrogatories madeInterrogetur vtrum credat, quod illud quod ſacrum Conciliū Conſtantienſe vniuerſalem Eccleſiam repraeſentans approbauit & approbat in fau •• fidei & ad ſalutem animarum, quod hoc eſt ab vniue •• Chriſti fidelibus approbandum & tenendum; & quod 〈◊〉 demnauit & condemnat eſſe fidei vel bonis moribus •• trarium, hoc ab eiſdem eſſe tenendum pro condemnato; • dendum & aſſerendum. Martinus quintus, approbante Ce • Constantien. vtrum credat ſententiam ſacri Conſt. Con • ſupra 45. articuli, Ioan. Wicklef & Ioan. Hus, latam 〈◊〉 re veram, Catholicam &c. Ibidem. there by th • Pope ſacro approbante Concilio, y • will not vrge him any more in th • matter.

TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum virorum p • à vera fide deficere. Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Qua •• Reſumpta. Intentio autem mea concluſionis ſicut patuit • ctis • eis erat quod data quacumque Eccleſia certae den • • ionis quae non ſit toti congregationi fidelium generalis, verbi • au • a Eccleſia Clericorum, Eccleſia Italicorum, Eccleſia Galli • orum &c Ex Scriptura ſacra non conuincitur quod ſemper ſit • liqua talis, ſiue conſimilis denominationis quae Chriſti legis re • ulae conformetur. Idem ex eadem Quaeſtione.

3. YOu conceaue withall what is to be ſaid in anſwere to the reſt • biected out of him, and particular •• e vnto that of the Clergie where he • eemes not to haue then well reflected on thoſe words of S. Paul who • oth teſtifie (and his teſtimonie is in • he Scripture) that our Sauiour cōſti • uted and Epheſ. 4. gaue Paſtors; and Doctors • o the conſummation of the Saincts, vnto • he worke of the miniſterie, vnto the edi • ing of the bodie of Chriſt, vntill wee • eete all into the vnitie of faith, that • e be not children wauering and caried • bout with euerie winde of Doctrine. The like wee reade in Eſaie, vpon Eſay 62. thy walls o Hieruſalem, I haue appointed watchmen: all the daie, and all • he night for euer they shall not hold • heir peace. And other places there • re to this purpoſe verie plaine, that •• nnot be auoided.

Neither did he finde himſelfe able 〈◊〉 ſatisfie the argument, taken from the nature of a Hierarchie, and the acts pertaining to it, that are alwaies to be found in the Church whilſt it laſts, that is, all daies till the conſummation of the world, which argument is there brought, and he doth endeuour, but could not finde an anſwer for it. Firſt he ſaith that ſuppoſing the whole Clergie should erre againſt the faith, ſome one of them might haue power to giue orders, to excommunicate or binde in way o • iuriſdiction, to conſecrate, and adminiſter Sacraments: and ſo ſaith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Eccleſi • the Order of Prelacie, which is, of Eccleſiaſticall Superiours to their inferiours, would remaine in the Church as, alſo diſtinction of degrees; Sacraments and other rights. But his opponent would aske him inſtantlie, ho • the diſtinction of degrees of Prie • and Bishop, of Paſtor and people how the order of Prelacie, and powe • to conſecrate, abſolue, binde, an • preach; be within, if the Preiſts an • Bishops, if the Prelates and ſuch 〈◊〉 haue this power, be without? He anſwers; licet fortè non actu, tamen in p • entiâ propinquâ, though perchance not •• ctuallie, yet in a neere power; and this, 〈◊〉 paſſiue power, for if the Preiſts and Bishops be without, the actiue is not within. How then is there actuallie 〈◊〉 Hierarchie, and the miniſtration before ſpoken of in the Church? he • eaues it heere, and goes to trieSecundo loco probat iſte Magiſter ſecū dam partē antecedentis ſua principalis, ſc. quod tota multitudo Clericorum non poteſt difformari legi Chriſti, quia Deus ita ſtatuit Sacerdotes Leuiticos &c. • ō firmat per aliqua ſuperiùs tacta, quia ſequitur quod poſ • et ceſſare in Eccleſia ordo praelationis & diſtinctio gra • uum & caetera contra Apoſtolum (ad Epheſ. 4. vbi de Chriſto loquitur ſic. Et ipſe dedit quoſdam Apoſtolos, • uoſdam autem Prophetas &c. ad aedificationem corporis Chriſti, ſc. Eccleſiae, donec occurramus.) Imo quod defice • e poſſet ſacerdotium Chriſti; Sacramēta & alij ritus Ec • leſiae &c. Ad iſta poteſt probabiliter dici &c. Ad confirma • onē licet ſupra tactum ſit de materia argumēti tamen ad • uc poteſt dici dupliciter. Vno modo quod licet tota mul • tudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret, tamen aliquis • acerdos remaneret habens poteſtatem ordinandi, ligan •• , conficiendi, & alia ſacramenta conferendi: & ſic re • anent in Eccleſia ordo praelationis, diſtinctio graduum, • cramenta, & alij ritus. Et licet fortè non in actu, tamen 〈◊〉 potentia propinqua. Petrus Camerac, Quaeſt. de Re •• mpta. another waie, which is, though no Clerkes, at all remained, no Bishops, no Prieſts, in all the world, to conſecrate, ordaine, gouerne, preach, or exerciſe anie Hierarchicall actes, yet the Church thereby should no • looſe the power to haue them, an • why? if none remaine to conſecrate preach, or make a prieſt? becauſe though she could neuer haue them b • humane power, yet by Gods miraculou • operation she might. And in fine h • concludes, that, though it be te • rarious to affirme that euer it shal • come to this, yet to denie that Go • by his omnipotencie can thus reſto • Alio modo dicunt aliqui quod licet omnes Clerici haereticarētur aut omnino nulli remanerēt, propter hoc Eccleſia poteſtatem habēdi praedicta nequaquam amitteret. Licet illa nunquam habere poſſet per humanam poteſtatem: ſed per miraculoſam Dei operationem: qui ſc. diuerſis modis poſſet de aliquibus laicis Catholicis, Sacerdotes & Epiſcopos ordinare, & hoc ſuae Eccleſiae reuelare. In quo caſu omnes Catholici deberēt taliter ordinatos à Deo, ſicut veros Epiſcopos & Sacerdotes habere. Et licet temerarium eſſet aſſerere talem caſum de facto aliquā • euenire: tamen eſſet etiam temerarium huius caſus • teſtatem negare. Quia hoc eſſet de futuris (in hypotheſi per • iraculum tantùm poſſibili) temerè diuinare: & contra ar • culum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere. Ibi • em. vide Ockam. Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. • dmiratione per moue or quod iſti praeſumunt aſſerere, to • m Clerum poſſe falſitate haeretica irretiri: & quia vix • nquam aliquis ſine motiuo aſſentit errori, aperias vnde • ti mouentur pro opinione praedicta. Ockam. p. 1. li. 5. c. • 9. a Hierarchie, or that he woul • if there should be neede, were alſo temerarious. And no doubt he tha • of ſtones can raiſe vp ſeed to Abraham, can without the miniſterie 〈◊〉 men if he thinke good, make infidels beleeue, and ordaine the • Prieſts and Bishops; the queſtion i • not of his abſolute power; but whether by vertue of the preſent inſtitution, there shall be, Hierarchical power in the Church euer till th • conſummation of the world (Paſt • res & Doctores in opus miniſterij do •• occurramus omnes.) The Scriptu • affirmes it; and the ſame was intended by that argument for which h • could not finde, though he we • • bout to ſeeke, an anſwer. And the • efore finding himſelfe in thoſe • raites, he thought it neceſſarie to • ublish his proteſtation, that what • e ſaid, wasſuprà ad lit. c. onelie diſputatiuè • ot aſſertiuè: leauing vs withall to • onſider how dangerous a thing it 〈◊〉 for ſchollers to reade Ockams Dia • gues, where is vnhappilie miniſtred • ccaſion of errour, and whence he • ooke manie things which you fin • e in this writing.

TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum &c. vt ſuprà pag. 26.

IT is obiected further that he defends in his reſumption, that • he whole multitude of Clerks and laymen may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged; h • defends it not; as appeares in the reſumption of the ſeuerall parts 〈◊〉 that ratio quinta §.ſuprà ad lit. l. Secundò prob • ſecundam partem antecedentis prin • palis, ſc. quod tota multitudo Cler •• rum non peteſt difformari legi Chriſ • where comes in the argument before mentioned of Hierarchicall orde • and acts; and in the ſolution yo • shall finde alwaies laicks remainin • in the Church: and the ſame is al • manifeſt by his three propoſitions beforeſuprà ad lit. d. cited, wherein he ſaies the • will be alwaies in the Church plu • adulti illuſtrati veritate fidei, plu • iuſti formati virtute ſpei, plures ele • inflammati charitate Dei, many ado • ned with faith, hope, and charit • which all will not be woemen, 〈◊〉 leſſe you will learne of Ockam th • explication which he ſuggeſts ( 〈◊〉 he doth many ſtrange ones) el •• that isAd ſecundam rationem (vt in errorem ducantur, ſi fieri poſſit, etiam electi.) poteſt dici quod electi cō prehendunt viros & mulieres; & ideo per hoc quod iuxta promiſſionem Chriſti tempore Antichriſti remanebunt electi, non poteſt concludi quod illi electi • nt viri, quia mulieres tunc poterunt eſſe electae. Ockam • al. p. 1. l. 5. c. 34. electae; men, that is, woe • choſen or elected: and then, as a ingenious proficient in his Dia • gues, make the like explication adulti, and iuſti.

You will recurre to the print or • ppie, for an excuſe; which plea • ight be admitted in ſome others; • t in a ſcholler that pretends to ha • reade the Queſtion in him, and •• th vrge his authoritie againſt the • hurch of God, ſuch a pretence • th no place.

§. III.

Waldenſis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie, will haue vs depend • on the Church for the ſence of it. 2. She is • o to declare which bookes are Canonicall • ripture. A ſpeach of Canus touching Wal • ſis his Opinion, examined. 3. When he ſaith 〈◊〉 Fathers teſtimonie hath abolished all He •• es, he doth not exclude the Authoritie of 〈◊〉 Church, ſymbolicall, or repreſentatiue. 4. • e ſymbolicall Church (he ſaith against Wi • ef) is not the Predeſtinated people only, but 〈◊〉 Vniuerſitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world. 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile. 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree.

HAecipſa fides & authoritas Eccleſiae, quantum homi •• ſupergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis •• thoritati ſuccumbit. Baro p. 365. ex Waldenſi Media eſt 〈◊〉 inter ſupremam authoritatem Scripturae & infimam ratio • fides Eccleſiae; Scripturas venerabiliter attollens & exhibeus, rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authorita • alligans zona Pauli. Idem ex eodem.

1. WALDENSIS, ſaith, the autho •• tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture. What this? will you inferre that wee th • refore neede not obaie the decr •• of Councells; or, that the Ch •• ches authoritie is fallible? Infallib •• tie may be in others beſides Sc •• pture. The Apoſtles were not Sc •• pture, yet were they infallible • neſſes of the trueth. The Churc • the pillar and ground of trueth, tho • the Church be not Scripture.1. Timoth. 3. Th • may be diuers Authorities infall • and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other. And ſo are theſe two, acc •• ding to this Author, as you may • by the places repreſented in theQuamuis fides vniuerſalis Eccleſiae inuenitur per Scripturas expreſſa ficut eſt paenè tota, non tamen eſt ei • n authoritate par ſed ſubijcitur. Waldenſis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt eſt Eccleſiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum; quod non licet de ipſa dubitare, eo quod teſtimoniū Eccleſiae Catholicae eſt obiectū fidei Chriſtianae, & legis latio ſcripturae canonicae. Subijcitur tamen ipſi, ſicut teſtis iudici, & teſtimonium veritati: ſicut praecon • zatio definitioni, & ſicut praeco regi. Ib • dem Quod aliquis pater vnus ſingulariter per ſe ſenſit potes aliquo, ſaltem colore tuo decredere: quod autem poenè omnes quaſi vnus homo loquuntur, fidei robur habet, quia vnitas ipſa in Eccleſia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis. Idem c. 25. margine. One onely, I will putt here, becauſe it ſerues alſo for that which followes. In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke. Doct. Fid. he declares how the ſinceritie of the Churches teſtimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed, (there, where we profeſſe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church) and amongſt other things to this purpoſe, hath theſe words; Before the written Goſpell, this (in the heart of the Church) was the Goſpell which Ieſus Chriſt wrote, and which the Apoſtles wrote in the harts of men; and to whoſe teſtimonie euerie one muſt ſtand (in the controuerſies) whether the text of the written Goſpell be vnderſtood or taken by the faithfull, or ſubuerted by the Heretick: whereof the Apoſtle ſpeaks to the Corinthians, ſaying • ow are our Epistle written in your hearts, which is knowne and read of all men, declared that you are the Epistle of Chriſt manifeſted by vs, and written not with inke but by the ſpicit of the liuing God, not in tables of ſtone but in fleshlie tables of the heart. And a litle after. Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts, be moſt certaine, yet much more hath the law of Chriſt certiſsimum interpretamentum, a most certaine interpretation, in the hearts of the faithfull ſucceeding one another from the beginning of the riſing Church and the Apoſtles times, foreuer, according to that of the Prophet, this is the teſtament which I will make to them, giuing my lawes in their hearts, and in their ſenſe or minde I will write them.

I muſt not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he ſaith,Haec ipſa fides Eccleſiae & eius authoritas, quantum hominum ſupergreditur rationem, tantum fateor diuin • legis authoritati ſuccumbit, ſed tamen qua • minoris eſſe authoritatis fidelibus ſi eam Eccleſia non praeferret Wa • d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum ſem per ſit teſtimonium Eccleſiae, ſemper credenda eſt ſi quandoq •• fallere conſueta, in omnibus eſt ſuſpecta. Ibidem. the diuine law were vnto the faithfull, Non licet de ipſa dubitare, &c. vide in Addit. of leſſe authoritie, if the Church did not preferre it. AndHoc eſt quod ſuperius dixi, quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina ſanctioni Eccleſiae, ipſa tamen taxabe • ſe ſum eius quo aliter ſentire non poſsis, & cuius interpraetationi reſiſtere capitalis eſt culpa, dicit Origenes Ibid •• . howmuch ſoeuer the diuin • ſcripture is higher then the decree of • he Church, ipſa tamen ſenſum eius • axabit, she notwithstanding shall de • ne the ſenſe wherein thou maieſt not • old otherwiſe, and whoſe interpreta •• on to reſiſt is, as Origen ſpeakes, a • apitall offence. So he.

AD Concilium vniuerſale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber ſit canonicus Quam quidem propoſitionem aequo ani • o paterer ab haereticis non admitti, ſed illud tamen doleo vehe • enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur, in quibus Tho • as Waldenſis eſſe videtur li. 2. doc. fid. c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex • no. Addit. Baro, c. 20. & 21.

SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now •• eſent, power to determine which •• e bookes of ſcripture. And for this •• e cited three Chapters of his 2. •• oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. • ut there I finde it not. He doth in • ed hold that the Catholick Churh •• d no other is able toEt hoc eſt ſecundum dictū glorioſum de Eccleſia, quod ſc. ipſa ſola eſt cuius teſtimoniū eſt tantae authoritatis & praeconij vt ipſos libros diuinarum ſcripturarū taxare, & decorū authoribus certificare poſsit fideles, nec fas erit tanto teſtimonio contraire. wald. li. 2. doct. fid. c. 20. Incertum ergo eſſe non poteſt cos eſſe libros canonicos & habere pondus authoritatisſuae quibus Eccleſia declarata per omnes gentes & ab Apoſtolis propagata, teſtimoniū certum reddit. Ibidem. Dico quod Eccleſia eam doctrinam docet eſſe credēdam ſub poena contumaciae. Ea dico quae praeſens eſt, quae iudicia directa decreuit à temporibus Apoſtolorum vſ que ad praeſens, vel vſque in praeſens per ſucceſſiones Patrum id ipſum ſapiē tium atque docentium; ei inquam credi debet ſub poena perfidiae. tom. 1. doctrina 2. certifie • hich bookes are ſcripture, and that •• e can commend none in this na •• re, but ſuch as were written in •• e ApoſtlesIpſis patriincumbebat qui tunc praeſidebāt Eccleſijs, ducere ſcripturarū volumina ad perfectum: tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo, & non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritatē ſacri canonis niſi qui de illis tē poribus Apoſtolicis agerēt, & tunc temporis eſſent, quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem ſummam. Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt ſuprà. daies: but this is • t to denie the preſent Church or Councell, power to propoſe againe the ſame. There were, notwithſtanding the Apoſtles approbation of diuers parts of the new teſtamēt (which approbation came not, at leaſt ſo manifeſtlie, to the notice of all,) ſome who doubted of,Vide Diſp. pa. 431 or denied, them; as for example, the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epiſtle, and the later o • S. Peter: yet you your ſelues doe, and Waldenſis did receaue them a • the hands of the Church by tha • part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus ſaie that h • denied a Councell power to propoſe bookes in the manner wee no • ſpeake of; but he ſaies onelie, tha • he ſeemes to be of thoſe who denie th • power to define which booke is Canonicall, to belonge chieflie to a gener • Councell. It is one thing to ſaie th • a Councell can doe it; another, t • ſaie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell; as you will percea • by the declaration of the next plac • obiected. Waldenſis, as Canus wor • import, ſeemed to denie, not the fo • mer, but the later: neither doth 〈◊〉 ſaie that he denied it, but that 〈◊〉 did ſeeme to doe ſo, ſome things (th • • hiloſophers vſe to ſaie,) do ſeeme 〈◊〉 be, and are not; and ſome thing • emes to one, otherwiſe many ti • es, then to an other. Had it been ſo • deed, I make no queſtion but that • ou who haue been diligent in your • inde to ſeeke in him what might • e brought againſt vs, would not • aue omitted to relate the words.

When you ſeeke for them next, • ou will finde in him, firſt (as I ſaid • efore) that in his excluſiue he ſpea • es of bookes not written in the A • oſtles time or before; to which pur • oſe he Waldenſ. li. 2. fid. doc. c. 20. brings the place of ſcri • ture, Dominus narrabit in ſcripturis • opulorum & principum horum qui • uerunt in ea, with S. Ieroms Comment on it, wherein are theſe words, vt exceptis Apoſtolis quodcunque aliud • oſteà dicitur, abſcindatur, non habeat • oſteà authoritatem. And to the ſame • enour he himſelfe a litle after, let vs • ote the differences of Scripture, becauſe the ſcripture or writing onlie of • he Princes, that is, of the Apoſtles, hath after our lord, the crowne of authoritie; I meane, of canonicall authoritie; for the ſaying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie, b • not canonicall. Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churc • in a generall Councell might wri • a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 ſcripture to be among other book • of holie writt, ſince S. Gregorie th • great doth profeſſe to honour the • as the Goſpels, in thoſe words,S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti, epiſt. 24. & citatur in Decret. d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot. Ibidem. Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros, 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia ſuſcipere & venera • me fateor, Waldenſis there anſwere to this argument, and expounds th • words of S. Gregorie. Thirdlie, becauſe it might againe be obiecte • (out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken) thatGelaſius c. Sancta Romana. d. 15. Nec obſtat Pelagiana epiſtola de libr • s recipiendis & non recip • ēd • s; vbi ſcripturarū libros in authoritate ple •• r • a quomodo ſint habendi denunciat nō ad authoritatem per ſeipſum in inſtaurat. walden. vbi ſupra. Pelagius the Pope ſeemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon, and what not; he anſwers with a diſtinction, which doth explaine his minde, and dot • ſuffice to ſtopp your mouth whe • occaſion require, Scripturarum lib • ſaith he, in authoritate plenaria qu • modo ſunt habendi denunciat, non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per ſcipſum inſtaur • That is, in briefe; he doth not giue but declare, their ſacred and diuin • • thoritie. And the ſame, the Church 〈◊〉 all times, might and may doe, • henſoeuer there shall be cauſe. • hey were by the holy Ghoſt in • red, and written by the Apoſtles • d Princes of the Church, qui fue • t in ea; and were approued by them 〈◊〉 ; but it hath beene ſince neceſſa • to declare ſome of them; to giue • timonie that they be diuine; and • s teſtimonie the Church ſtill can • e. Neither is our Sauiour offen • d with her teſtimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word, who was pleaſed that she • ould giue teſtimonie of him • fe. Of which matter this author • th much in the former Chapters, • eciallie the eighteenth. Fourthlie, 〈◊〉 doth eſteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope, and of a perfect Councell • e infallible as you will heare be • e wee leaue him; and therefore • ch more is he to be eſteemed to • eld this honour to the whole, whe • they be. All which being con • ered, that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus ſo appeares, that it is but a • ere videtur; without an est, vn • it.

HAec eſt ſola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereſes mel aboleuit, ipſa ſc. profeſſio concors ſanctorum Patr • ſecundum ſuorum temporum interualla reddentium teſti • nium Chriſti verbis, & conſuetudini primitiue. Baro p. 3 • ex wald. to. 3. de Sacramentalibus; doct. 3.

3. THirdlie, it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie frō Cou • cells, and from the preſent Churc • becauſe he ſaith that the vnanim • profeſsion of the holie Fathers giu • teſtimonie according to the diſtance • their times to the Latiùs patet verbum, quàm ſcriptura. words of Chriſt 〈◊〉 the primitiue cuſtome, is the o •• Chriſtian engine which hath once •• lished all Hereſies. Wherevnto I a • ſwere, firſt, that he ſpeakes with • excluſion of the Church preſent • each hereſie; for it is well know • that the Church which did abo •• Arianiſme, and Neſtorianiſme, 〈◊〉 the reſt of the hereſies before 〈◊〉 times, was that Church wh • knewe of them; and that she di • by her Paſtors; and for the moſt p • in Councells, though not without 〈◊〉 cenſent of that part of the Chu ••• and thoſe her Paſtors which li •• in the precedent ages; which o • 〈◊〉 or agreeable profeſſion, was • nd, partlie by their bookes, as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares • his daie; and partlie by the tradi • of the particular Churches whe • they had liued and died. Which •• nner the Church doth ſtill obſer • in condemning hereſies, as they • ſe, ioyning her preſent Authori • to that of the precedent ages; •• oſe minde she doth enquire in •• e manner; that ſo, by conſent of 〈◊〉 whole, ſtill, errours be condem • d. Neither is it neceſſarie to finde • at which she doth at anie time • opoſe, vniuerſallie profeſſed by all • fore, in plaine termes, and explici • or to finde it in all bookes of tho • times; the Church informer ages • d not ſo; wee take the ſame courſe • at she then did. Secondlie you muſt • tend vnto the words cunctas abole • e hath abolished all; No one Coun • ll, no one part, as that which liued 〈◊〉 the ſecond age, or that which li • ed in the third, or fourth, hath abo • hed and deſtroyed them all; but •• e whole hath done it. Thirdlie that • la, is notIf ſola be taken as you would haue it, what will become of your triall by ſcripture onlie. captiouſlie to be ſtood vpon, leaſt you wrong the ſame A • thor, who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whoſe teſtimon • ſo. 3. doc. 3. & tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20. &c. he pleades ſo earneſtlie, both i • the ſame place, and in his ſecon • booke Doct. Fid. in many chapter • prouing it (it's teſtimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede: y •• the Fathers (of whoſe conſent 〈◊〉 ſpeakes in the place by you hee • vrged) be not the ſymbolica •• Church properlie; but onlie, a par • of it. And in like manner, whe • ſpeaking of the Church ſymbolical he ſaith it is she onlie whoſe teſtimonie is of ſo greatTo. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt ſuprà ad lit. d. authoritie tha • she can certifie who are authors o • the bookes of ſcripture, that ſo • doth not exclude another authoritie that is within; (for example, th • vnanimous conſent of Fathers whereof he ſpeakes heere in the words obiected; their authoritie were ſufficient to certifie the ſame as you may ſee by him, To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiuſdem to. c. 26. andApudomnes Catholicos valet & ligat vna ſententia concors patrū: maximè autem temporis longaeu • & patrum ſucceſsione ſirmata, ita vt locū fidei habeat. De quacre • enda ſub poenae perfidiaein ſymbolo ſcribetur Credo ſanctam Eccleſiam. walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereſes compeſcendas, & omnes tractatus & definitiones terminandas in materia fidei ſola via eſt in qua errare non contingit concors patrū ſententia ab ipſis Apoſtolorū ſedibus vſque ad noſtratempora fideliter compilara. In hoc enim ſimile erit regnum caelorum, id eſt, eccleſia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de theſauro ſuo noua & vetera. li. 2. c. 25. els where,) but it excludes authoritie Without. Fourthlie he doth no • exclude generall Councells▪ by th • Chriſtian world approued; and h • • t should, in Sainct Auguſtines • es, haue refuſed to ſubſcribe to • h authoritie, or diſputed againſt • t which the vniuerſall Church • hat age beleeued and tought; he • t would not haue beleeued what • s by ſo great authoritie propoſed, • d bene thought madde rather then • rthie the name of man. Fiftlie, • her doth he exclude from infal • litie, and power to abolish he • es, the Goſpels, and other parts ſcripture; and yet theſe be not • t inſtrument or engine which he • akes of; ſo that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on thoſe words, to • e infallibilitie awaie from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers. Sixtlie, notwithſtan • g that Councells, and the preſent • urch, are infallible, it may be ſaid • the conſent of the Fathers or • he whole ſymbolicall Church, • h abolish all hereſie; becauſe faith • re readilie giues aſſent vnto that • ch is ſo vniuerſallie propoſed. • derſtandings (not ſo well diſpo • before,) doe quicklie ſtoope in 〈◊〉 caſe, to giue reuerence to the • h; and ſuch as doe not, are condemned of all; and ſo confound • that they dare no more openlie p • feſſe their errour: whence it co • to paſſe, that none making eſte • either of the doctrine or of th • who ſtubbornlie doe perſiſt in it, degrees it is abolished. And this one of thoſe glorious prerogati • which Waldenſis ſo much cōme • in the Church. Beſides the foreſ • readines in the vnderſtanding wh • it is by grace well diſpoſed, or 〈◊〉 leſſe repugnance to render obedie • when it cannot with any shew p • tend reaſon for the refuſall, there d • appeare too more fullie in t • proponent the power of vni • which is in it ſelfe a diſpoſitio • more plentifull participation of 〈◊〉 ſpirit; and brings with it grea • force to conquer oppoſition. Vnd • ſtandings well diſpoſed, yeild p • ſentlie when the Councell ſpeak • when the preſent Church hath • ceaued, and vniuerſallie appro • the Councell, there is ex parte ſ • cti, more adheſion; and yet m • when the conſent of all former a • is added and vnited: and more 〈◊〉 there was in thoſe that had, Gradus adhaeſionis ex parte ſubiecti. as the • choolemen ſpeake, euidentiam in • tteſtante. S. Marke knew the Goſ • ell which he wrote, to be true, yet, • hat the faithfull more eaſilie might • eleeue it, he had itVide to. 1. doct. 3. & to. 3. li. 2. c. 20. & S. Hieron. Catol. ſcript. in Marco. approued, • s S. Hierom doth relate, by S. Pe • er. S. Paul knew the truth in the • ueſtion moued at Antioch about • ircumciſion, yet to make the cre • ibilitie more appeare and more con • incing, he went with it to the Coū • ell at Hieruſalem where it was Act. 15. • efined. And the Paſtors there knewe too, what was the truth, yet • or the greater weight of Authori • ie they added teſtimonies of Scri • ture. The ſcripture many times • rings teſtimonies of ſcripture for confirmation, as this Author showeth excellentlie to. 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our bleſſed Sauiour himſelfe in con • irmation of his reſurrection cited Moyſes and the Prophets. When parts • re vnited, Bishops in Councell, particular Churches in the vniuerſall; whole ages in the Symbolicall; • ater with moſt Auncient; all vnder • one eternall Word becomming one ſpeaker, and vttering in the language of all Nations, as it were with one mouth, in one ſpirit, one and th • ſame thing; no man that perceaue • it, morallie can, diſſent. This proponent hath a commaunding powe • ouer a wiſe mans vnderſtanding; an • it is a great engine to confound errour; in which great engine he tha • should denie there were many pa • ticular engines able to confoun • Hereſie, wronges diuers particula • in the companie, vnleſſe you eſteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apoſtles.

ECcleſia vniuerſalis habet fidem indefectibilem, non q • dem in generali ſynodo congregata quam aliquoties err • percepimus, &c. Baro p. 366. ex wald. to. 1. li. 2. c. 19.

4. FOurthlie, to the ſame purpoſe • of remouing infallibilitie fro • the preſent Church, and Councell • he is cited out of another place ſpeaking thus. The vniuerſall Chur •• hath faith which cannot faile, not indeed aſſembled in a generall ſyn • which wee haue vnderſtoode to ha • failed ſometimes &c. In which cita • n, abruptlie broken of for aduan • ge, the Authors ſpeach is man • d, and the parts (ſuch as be re • rſed) are ill putt together; ſo that 〈◊〉 intent and meaning cannot be • ceaued; as the learned reader • y obſerue by looking on his • rds, related in the (p) addition.Etſi lex naturae certiſsima eſt quam ge • t homines ſcriptam in cordibus ſuis vt refert Apoſt. • . 1. multo magis lex Chriſti habet certiſsimum inter • amentum ſuum in cordibus fidelium ſuccedentium ſibi 〈◊〉 ab initio naſcentis Eccleſiae & temporibus Apoſtolorum vſ • in ſempiternum, ſecundum quod per Prophetam dicit • minus, hoc teſtamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges • s in cordibus eorum & in ſenſibus eorum ſcribam eas. Quod • onens Ambroſius, ô verè inquit teſtator aeternus qui • ris in cordibus leges affigit ſuas, & ſcribit in ſenſibus, • ihil aliud cogitare niſi diuina praecepta poſsimus, 〈◊〉 aliud ſentire niſi Dei oracula debeamus. Walden. li. • 8 and continuing his diſcourſe; Haec eſt, ſaies he, Eccle • • ymbolica, Eccleſia Chriſti inquam Catholica, & Apoſto • • mater credentium populorum, quae fidem habet indefect: bi • • ecundum promiſſum Chriſti ad Petrum qui tunc fi • m geſsit Eccleſiae. Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat • tua. Non eſt ergo ſpecialis Eccleſia non Africana vt • atus dixit. Nec vtique particularis illa Romana; ſed • erſalis Eccleſia, non quidem in generali ſynodo con • ata, quam aliquotiens erraſſe percepimus, velut illa • ninenſis congregata ſub Tauro praefecto, & illa Con • inopolitana ſub Iuſtiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae ſecundum Bedam, & quaedam aliae: ſed eſt Eccleſia • Christi Catholica per totum mundum diſperſa à baptiſmo Chriſti per Apoſtolos & caeteros ſucceſſores eorum a • haec tempora deuoluta, quae vtique veram fidem continet, & teſtimonium Chriſti fidele, ſapientiam praeſta • paruulis, inter extremos errores ſtabilem retinens veritatem. c. 19. in principio. That others alſo may conceaue the ſame; it is to be obſerued that Waldenſis is diſputing there againſt Wickleff, about the Church which is the Creed wee profeſſe to beleeue and is therefore by him called th • Church ſymbolicall. Wickleff conſidering that the faith of it is to be indeficient, it being ſtill true to ſaie there is ſuch a Church or congregation would haue it to be theQuod Eccleſia noſtra ſymboliba eſt Eccleſia Catholica. Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter (wickleffus) contra Papam & Paſtores Eccleſiae ſub titulo iuſtae app • lationis Eccleſiae Chriſti quae eſt obiectum fidei Chriſt • nae, de qua articulus eſt in ſymbolo Credo Sanctam Eccleſiam Catholicam. Difficultas autem eius eſt iſta. Quan • credere debemus Eccleſiam Sanctam Catholicam ta • quam fidem, & iterum credere debemus quòd quodli • membrum iſtius Eccleſiae ſit praedeſtinatum ad gloriam, credere debemus quod iſte Papa vel Epiſcopus ſit me • brum Eccleſiae, credere debemus quod repugnat ipſum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere. Haec Wicklef. Actor. Sub hoc globo verborum, vnà cum praeſumpto ſ •• Eccleſia ſymbolica &c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo di • cultas, de quidditate huius Eccleſia ſymbolicae, quam vti • credere debemus &c. Ibidem. Predeſtinate onlie who do finallie perſeuer in the faith. Waldenſis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie, doth auouch (and according to Scripture, Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. & 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12. Epheſ. 4. &c.) that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth, in that ſort that all may learne of it. And therefore it is to be a viſible CongregationEccleſia est fidelium congregatio. It inuolues à Hierarchie, Epheſ. 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers, the predeſtinated only excepted, do fall from the faith before they die? or Societie, Hierachicallie diſpoſed. Whence he determines it to be, according to the words of the Creed it ſelf, the Catholike or Vniuerſall Church, that is, the wholeranke or companie of the faithfull people ſucceſsiuelie deſcending from the firſt aſſemblie made by Chriſt in the bank of Iordan, vntill our times, and from henceforth vntill the end of the world; and reaching into all partes of the world whereſoeuer the shining teſtimonie of the faith of Chriſt the head and author, is kindled. Ibidem.

In which deſcription, by him there proued out of ſcripture, and confirmed by the teſtimonie of S. Auguſtine, he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuerſalitie; one loci, of place; another temporis, of time: as is more diſtinctlie there ſpecified in the ſame chapter by himſelfe. And the benefit of this vniuerſalitie he • ſaith, is, vt (t) ſciamus diſcretè quae ſit vera Chriſti Eccleſia veramque haben • doctrinam fidei; that wee may knowe distinctlie (as, a communitie ſo vniuerſall is found eaſilie) which is the true Church of Chriſt and hauing the true doctrine of faith. Hereſies are limited, as he shewes, for time; and place: but the Symbolicall Church, is both waies vniuerſall. And to it when hereſies ariſe,Ad hanc Eccleſiamergo quae per totum mūdum vnam habet doctrinā Apoſtolicam, omnes fideles intonante noua haereſi debent habere recurſum; ipſi enim (Apoſtoli) cū vna ſana doctrina, adhuc manente, imbuerunt totam Eccleſiam, & ob hoc tota Eccleſia Catholica etiam Apoſtolica nominatur. Walden. c. 18. fideles omnes debe • habere recurſum, all faithfull muſt haue recourſe, as he ſaith in the next Chapter. The reaſon is, becauſe she hathc. 18. vt ſuprà ad lit. q. in her heart the Goſpell, written by the holie Ghoſt, together with a moſt certaine interpretation of the Chriſtian lawe; and alſo giuesAddit adhuc Eccleſia ſymbolica, id eſt, quam tenem • in dubijs credere ſub poenae perfidiae: addit enim Eccleſi • ſic dictae communiter (id eſt, communi rationi Eccleſiae 〈◊〉 omnibus Eccleſijs abſtracta) rationem vnius fidelis & indu • bitantis teſtimonij: & hoc ratione qua eſt vna. Sic enim • credimus vnam ſanctam Eccleſiam, non quidem gente vel patria, ſed profeſsione vnam & fide, de qua (fide) vnicum • cunctis gentibus reddit teſtimonium. cap. 18. Nam & hoc eſt credere Eccleſiam Catholicam, credere eam habere veram • fidem de Deo & vera Sacramenta. Ibidem. Ratione ergo qua Eccleſia eſt obiectum fidei Chriſtianae, ſic facit teſtimonium abundanter de Chriſto cuilibet eam vel ſecundum eam credenti. Ibidem. Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit, ſc. vltra authoritatem Scripturae & Spiritus ſancti reuelationem, fidem in dictis aſſumentis quod non extorqueat, & induſtriam quod per eluſionem non ſeducatur aut non fingat; & hoc ipſum est quod ſponſus ille Eccleſiae ſponſae reliquit in dotem dicens. Ecc • • go vobiſcum ſum omnibus diebus. Non dixit recum ſum, ſc. cum aliqua ſingulari perſona, ſed vobiſcum ſum, cum to • a Eccleſia Catholica & Apoſtolica quae ſeduci non poteſt • ec ſeducere, & habet fidele teſtimonium de Chriſto, & no • it omnia myſteria Sponſi ſui. cap. 19. vide etiam ſuprà pag. 49. certaine teſtimonie to the truth.

Wee cannot addreſſe our ſelues to the Predeſtinate, for inſtruction, • or abſolution, for orders; wee know not who they be, nor how to finde thē out. They be not the Symbolicall wickliffs Argument, The predeſtinate do perſeuer in the faith, Ergo they be the Symbolicall Church; Is like this; A mans ſoule is rationall, Ergo a mans ſoule is a man. Church, they haue not all • he conditions of it. Neither is any • articular Church, or Congregation; The Church ſymbolicall: no, not a Ge • erall Councell. A Councell is not • till in being; they be celebrated only ſometimes, whereas the Symbolicall Church, is to be ſtill. So likewiſe is, the Church diffuſed or Vniuerſall, Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Epheſ. 4. And, againſt a Councell, or a particular Church, he that were diſpoſed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it, and it therefore at that time, no Church; (for Eccleſia is fidelium congregatio;) whereas the Church ſymbolicall is in 〈◊〉 times, neuer failing: which thing notwithſtanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuerſall; which is in 〈◊〉 times exiſtent, and in faith, indeficient Eſay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. & 28. Ioan. 14. & 16. Ti • 1. ep. 3. c. Epheſ. 4. She only, hathThe predeſtinated preciſelie haue them not all. See the Diſp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. 〈◊〉 the conditions of, and indeed is, th • ſymbolicall Church.

This conſtruction of the word • of Waldenſis, to one that reads th • whole diſcourſe in him, is plai • and obuious. This, which hetherto I haue deſcribed, This, I ſaie, th • Catholik and Apoſtolicall Church 〈◊〉 Chriſt, the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient, accordin • to the promiſe of Chriſt to Peter 〈◊〉 • hen did beare the figure of the Church, (I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile) is the ſymbolicall Church. Hauing eſtablished this tenet, he preſentlie drawes from it an inference, Non est ergo &c. that, being the vniuerſall Church, it is not anie particular; as the African, or the Roman particular Church, or Dioces.vide Diſput, pag. 619. ex Innoc. 3. Theſe are no more the ſymbolicall Church then particulars are the vniuerſall. Neither it is a generall ſynod; ſuch haue erred ſometimes, one at Ariminum; another at Conſtantinople; and ſome others. But it is the Catholik Church of Chriſt diſperſed ouer all the world, come downe from the baptiſme of our Sauiour by the Apoſtles and others their ſucceſſors to th • ſe times; which Catholik Church verilie doth containe veram fidem true faith (there is one thing, required to the Symbolicall Church, and that which Wickleff alſo thought neceſſarie; but that is not all:) and teſtimonium Chriſti fidele, the faithfull teſtimonie of Chriſt: (there is an other: and the exerciſe of both followes) giuing wiſdome to the litle ones, amongſt extreame errours retaining the truth firme. The Deuil by wickleff ſuggeſted peſtilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion, and Schiſme. Praeſcitus non habetpoteſtatem, &c. Nullus eſt Dominus ciuilis, nullus eſt Praelatus, nullus eſt Epiſcopus, dum eſt in peccato mortali. Recitantur in Concilio Conſtant. Seſſ. 8. & apud Wald. paſsim. See aboue, pag. 50. lit. r. Here is the ſence of his words to the full: and for my part I ſee no more in them.

But you that can gaſe vpon chimeraes, would perſuade vs there are two things for your purpoſe; the one, that the Church of Rome may faile or erre; and the other, that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie. The former of theſe you ground vpon that part of his inference; nec vtique particularis illa Romana; neither alſo is it the particular Roman Church: the later vpon thoſe other, quam (Synodum) aliquoties erraſſe percepimus &c. which (Synod) wee haue vnderſtood ſometimes to haue erred, as that of Ariminum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect, and that Conſtantinopolitan vnder Iuſtinian the yonger, and ſome other. Theſe two parcels then, and his opinion in theſe two points, are next to be conſidered. I take them in order.

5. Nec vtique Suprà ad lit. q. particularis ill • Romana. The forme of ſpeach is negatiue; and the author by it denie • ſomething of the Roman Church a • • s a particular Church; the Que • on (ſince you will needs make a • eſtion of it) is Whether he denies • o be the Symbolicall Church; as it • eares he doth by what hath • ne ſaid of this place hetherto; or, • ether he denies it perpetuall con • ncie in the faith, and indefectibili • . In anſwer to which queſtion if • u turne to the 48. Chapter, whoſe • e is, de praerogatiua perpetuae immu • atis Romanae Eccleſiae in fide Chriſti • ab omni (bb) contagione haereſis illibatae; Locus ergo vnde fluxit ab exordio ſapientia Chri • na, Romana eſt Eccleſia. Ab hac enim praeſtatur hu • nae inertiae dirigendae aſsiſtri • ſapientia ſedium diuina • n, vt nobiſcum ſit & nobiſcum laboret, vt ſciamus quid • eptum ſit coram Deo omni tempore. Walden. to. 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit vna fides quando pro captu ſuo • ſquiſque varia meditatur & inuenit, niſi vno magiſtro • ante vnus doceat paedagogus. Ille puta, quem ad hoc • cium prae caeteris Chriſtus elegit dum diceret. Ego roga • ro te Petre vt non deficiat fides tua. Ibidem. Et quid mi • ſi Chriſto rogante, Romana Eccleſia non poteſt in fide • cere? non eſt magnum, Haeretice, non eſt magnum vt • od per ſe caderet, Chriſto ſuſtentante non poſſit cadere. • dem. Ergo audacter dico, in Chriſti nomine & Chriſto • ante, Romanam Eccleſiam in doctrina Chriſti eſſe im • cabilem. Ibidem. Interrogat quis vnde Romanae Eccle • tanta authoritas? Mihi videtur ex conceſsione Chri • ad confeſsionem Petri primi Pontificis. Primus enim confeſſor fuit diuinae generationis &c. quomodo ergo 〈◊〉 dubijs fidei ad illam de fide conſulendam non curritur, 〈◊〉 per quam, totam Eccleſiam ſuam Chriſtus fundaſſe co • uincitur? Ibidem. you shall finde auouched, an • proued, that Eccleſia Romana non p • teſt in fide deficere, the Church 〈◊〉 Rome cannot faile in the faith. A • further, I affirme boldlie in the na • of Christ, and Chriſt aiding the Rom • Church, that it is in the doctrine 〈◊〉 Chriſt impeccable. The origen of th • he refers there to our Sauiou • prayer and his graunt: and concl • ding the Chapter he ſaith, Ibidem. vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. & Pitſ. de biblioth. wald. Cy • not without cauſe extolles the Rom • faith, when expounding thoſe w • (portae inferi non praeualebunt;) te • Peter quoth he, it is ſaid the gates 〈◊〉 Hell shall not preuaile againſt it; ( 〈◊〉 Church:) according to this promiſe • our Lord the Apoſtolicall Church of • ter remaines cleane from all miſlead • and hereticall circumuention aboue 〈◊〉 the Prelates, and Bishops, and aboue Primates of Churches and of Apoſ • in her chiefe Paſtors in moſt abund • faith, and in the Authoritie of Pe • and whereas other Churches are comp • d with errour, she alone eſtablished • moueablie doth raigne, impoſing ſi • ace and ſtopping the mouthes of all He • tickes: and wee by neceſsitie of ſaluation, not by pride deceaued nor inebria • d with the wine of pride, doe acknowledge and profeſſe openlie with her the • me of truth and Apoſtolicall tradition. Hereby appeares what Wal • nſis thought of the Church of • ome; and by thoſe words ſecun • m Domini profeſsionem, and thoſe • abilita inquaſſabiliter, he ſawe which himſelfe had profeſſedNon poteſt in fide deficere. vt ſuprà. • efore) that this immunitie and ho • our was to continue. And by this, • nd much more which you may • ade in that Chapter where the thing 〈◊〉 profeſſedlie diſcourſed of, I • aue as manifeſt, that you did miſtake him in your firſt preten • e, which was about the Church of Rome.

Non quidem generali Synodo con • egata, quam Sūprà ad li. q. aliquoties erraſſe • rcepimus, velut illa Ariminenſis • ngregata ſub Tauro praefecto, & illa • onstantinopolitana ſub Iuſtiniano mi • ore tempore Sergij Papae ſecuudum Bedam, 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 & quaedam aliae. Here againe you will haue the thing diſputed, what he denies of a ſynod, and what he affirmes. He denies that it is the ſymbolicall Church; this is plaine by the coherence of the diſcourſe, as I declared before. He affirmes of generall Synods that ſome haue erred, as the Conſtantinopolitan vnder Iuſtinian; the Ariminian vnder Taurus, and ſome others. Whence it followes that the Church ſo aſſembled is not the ſymbolicall Church; for that neuer erreth. Holie, diuine faith, is in her eſſence; and therefore as her eſſence or being cannot faile, no more can her faith. She hath fidem indefectibilem, ſuch a faith as by reaſon of our SauioursMatth. 16. care cannot be deficient: and without exception of any time, without admitting corruption to the preiudice of her integritie, she retaines the truth euer Suprà pag. 49. ſteedfaſt; whereas a Councell or aſſemblie may be corrupted and want integritie; as appeares in thoſe which he ſpeakes of.

Moreouer there are vnder the name of Generall Councells (as appeares by him in this place, and elswhere) ſome that are ſincere; ſome that are not. That of Nice was ſincere, and was generall: that of Conſtantinople vnder Iuſtinian, was not ſincere, yet is it here putt in the number of thoſe, which he calls generall. The infallibilitie of ſuch as are ſincere, and approued by the ſucceſſor of S. Peter, the Pope, wee maintaine; the infallibilitie of all that are vnder the name of generall, wee doe not. Neither doth Waldenſis contradict vs in the former part, which is of the ſincere and approued. He ſaith indeed that ſome which goe by the name of generall haue erred; you may adde if you pleaſe, that others (like them) hereafter may. But your argument will not hold; Some, therefore all. Some men ſtagger in their faith, men denie God ſometimes; you are not wiſe if you vnderſtand this of all men, or of wiſe men.

When Wickleff obiected as you doe,walden to. 1. li. 2. c. 26. Peccauit ſcimus Ariminenſe Concilium, peccauit & Nicenum Thraciae, the Ariminian Councell wee know did amiſſe, and ſo did the Nicene of Thrace; The author (the ſame whoſe authoritie you are medling with) anſwers, peccauit vtique magnus exercitus Angelorum &c. a great armie verilie of Angells did amiſſe, yea and the holie number of Apoſtles, euen in apostacie, after they had receaued the faith, (before the comming of the holie Ghoſt, the ſpirit of truth, to teach them all truth;) and yet neither is the companie of other Angels therefore depriued of their felicitie; nor the aſſemblie of the Apostles, regularlie without doubt, of the principalitie of the Church; nor a generall Councell, of its authoritie. Thus in the 26. Chapter; and in the next, which is the 27. he deliuers his minde touching the matter whereof wee are diſputing, in theſe words, Non dubitat Eccleſia ſancta Dei, toties aſsiſtere ſibi Spiritum ſanctum quoties congregati fuerint authoritate plenario in nomine Chriſti ad fidei dubium reſoluendum; The holie Church of God doubteth not that the holie Ghoſt aſsiſtes her as oft as they by full authoritie be aſſembled in the name of Chriſt to reſolue a doubt of faith. This was not onelie certaine, with him; but it is, he ſaith, a thing which the Catholike Church holds as a matter out of queſtion; non dubitat; she doubts not of it. And a litle after, Plenarijs Concilijs Eccleſiae, ſi tamen maneant incorrupta, Spiritus ſanctus adest, & definit de fide. The holie Ghoſt is preſent vnto plenarie or generall Councells of the Church if ſo they continue ſincere or perfect, and doth define of faith. And if this be ſo; then, not exteriour onlie, as ſome would shift it of, but interiour obedience is due to the decree; for ſuch obedience wee owe to the holie Ghoſt, who is preſent aſsisting as was before ſaid; and, as it is further heere expreſſed, doth make the definition, definit. And conſequentlie this Author had reaſon to ſaie (as he doth in the ſame Chapter afterwards) that itMultitudini ergo credentium eſt potius adhaeredū, quae cum claruerit quod in Chriſti nomine cōgregetur, ab eius decreto vnanimi non niſi cum periculo declinatur. c. 27. is daungerous to ſwarue from ſuch decrees.

To this purpoſe, in the Chapter whence you diſpute, he ponders thoſe words of the firſt Councell aſſembled in Hieruſalem, (which gaue the forme to all others and taught them how to vnderſtand our Sauiours Ioh. 14. & 16. promiſe) It hath ſeemed good to the holie Ghoſt and to vs. waeldendenſ. to. 1. li. 2. c. 19. marke; ſaith he; they ſaid not, it ſeemed good to the holie Ghoſt and the Church, but to the holie Ghoſt and to vs who heere doe repreſent the Church: and yet, not to vs without the holie Ghoſt, but to the holie Ghost in himſelfe, and to the when this authoritie comes in, the fortè ſic, and fortè nō, haue no place, The Holie Ghoſt cannot be deceaued. What he doth auouch is moſt certaine. Remouentur dubitationes. Be mindfull of this note when you come to S. Aug. holie Ghoſt in vs in the Church, who in doubts of faith is neuer wanting to the Church, Chriſt promiſing to her, the holie Ghost shall teach you all truth. And therefore what ſeemeth good to him, the ſame alſo by his inſtigation, ſeemeth good to vs.

That he did acknowledg infallibilitie in ſincere approued Councells, it is further manifeſt by that he held of the Popes iudgmēt. If he thought the reſolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him, and that his deciſion was a truth ſo certaine that it could not be gaineſaid, he without queſtion made no leſſe eſteeme of a generall and approued Councell wherein the Popes iudgment and determination is included; and conſequentlie, when he queſtions or reiects the authoritie of Councells, he meanes not thoſe wherein the Pope defines, or ſuch as he approues; and ſo, not all that are vnder the name of generall, but ſome onelie as hath beene ſaid before. Now, that he had that eſtimation which I haue mentioned, of the Popes iudgment and dedefinition, it is manifeſt by the 47. Chapter, where profeſſedlie he doth vndertake to proue it, bringing to this purpoſe manie teſtimonies out of S. Augustine, S. Hierome, Rufinus, Origen, the Bishops of Africk, and others. The title of the Chapter is, Quod Papa habet ab antiquo poteſtatem inſringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates & debellandum & cancellandum omnes falſitates haereticas. And in the verieOrthodoxi omnes ad iudices Chriſti currunt vicarios, & ordinatè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant veritatem. Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt, licet Doctores, & vltra eos Epiſcopos, & inter omnes mortales ſingillatim acceptos petere Papam, cuius moderamē & deciſio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus. Apud ipſum enim piè credebant totius fidei noſtrae latere myſteria, & pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico, quo ſciret reprobare malum & eligere bonum. Walden. to. 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit (Hieronymus) apud Papam Romanum authoritatem eſte ad emendandum fidem incongruam, vel ad probandum Catholicam: & poſtquam à tanto Apoſtolatu haberetur vt recta, ſine dubio foret per null • maltum violanda. Ad eiuſdem quoque Damaſi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Epiſcopi illo tempore ſuos aduerſarios haereticos coëgerunt. Ibidem: vbi etiam refert illud quod ſuprà dictum eſt ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato. beginning he ſaith, Papae moderamen & deciſio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus, the Popes direction and deciſion was by the Fathers (marke that, by the Fathers) held for a truth which cannot be contradicted.

To the ſame purpoſe are manie things added in the next Chapter, which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome; where amonge other things he ſaith, thatPropter hanc incorruptionem & claritatem famoſam, omnes viri Catholici, quantumcunque magni, quantumlibet ſancti, ſimul & authoritate territi magnae ſedis, ab hac ſuſceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica, cap. 48. all Catholick men, how great, how holie ſoeuer, haue from that See, receaued documents in doubts of faith; and that it is, as he ſpeakes in the words of Cyrill, ſtabilita inquaſſabiliter, ſo eſtablished that it cannot be moued or shaken; and more to the ſame purpoſe, which in the additions you may reade. So that I may leaue this as ſufficientlie demonſtrated out of his booke, that you were miſtaken in the ſence of the words obiected.

Out of that which hath beene related from him, it appeares alſo (that I may leaue a note for ſuch as vpon this occaſion may chaunce hereafter to looke on him) firſt that he puts diuers degrees of adheſion (deuines expreſſe it by certitudo maior & maior ex parte ſubiecti,) reſpectiuelie to verities diuerſlie propoſed. Secondlie thar, with him theſe proponents are infallible, vizt: the Church ſymbolicall; that part of it which is now preſent, including both Paſtors and people; a perfect and ſyncere generall Councell; and the Church of Rome as it is head, or the Pope defining. Thirdlie that the Pope, Councell, and preſent Church, when it will ſeeke the veritie of anie point of faith, called into queſtion, or the authoritie of any writing or ſcripture to knowe whether it be diuine or no, is to looke into the ſymbolicall Church which hath all the Chriſtian lawe, with the meaning, written in her heart, by the ſpirit of the liuing God, and there to finde it: not in euerie page of this greate booke, not expreſſed in the faith of euerie part; but in the booke. And, if after the ſearch made, it be propoſed, by the Pope in a generall Councell by the preſent Church receaued; or by the Pope in Councell to the Church, all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it. Fourthlie, that the preſent Church finding and propoſing the veritie, and the ſymbolicall (in whom she finds it) beleeuing and teſtifying the ſame; doe make vp one organ, where by the holie Ghoſt the ſpirit of truth doth auouch it to the world. Fiftlie that beſides the authorities before mentioned, all contained in the Church, (wherein our ſauiourEgo vobiſcum omnibus diebus. Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Chriſtus. 2 Corim. 13. Parecletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiſcum in aete • nū, ſpiritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vobis erit. Ibidem. Non enim vos eſtis qui loquimini ſed Spiritus Patris veſtri qui loquitur in vobis, Matt. 10. likewiſe and his ſpirit be,) there be in it alſo diuers other degrees of authoritie; as, of generall Councells not including the Popes approbation; not by the Church, or him, diſapproued; of particular Churches, eſpeciallieEccleſiarum Catholicarum, inter quas ſanê illae quae Apoſtolicas ſedes habere, & epiſtolas accipere meruerunt, &c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. ſuch as the Apoſtles haue liued in; and amongſt them chieflie the Roman, (though conſidered with abſtraction from the Popes authoritie.) by reaſon of the traditions left in her by the two great Apoſtles S. Peter and S. Paul: of nationall or prouinciall Synods, and the like: all which according to this Author, haue their waight; though not the ſame with the Pope in Councell. I omit to pleade further that Waldenſis was at Conſtance in the Councell whereof I ſpake before treating of Cameracenſis; and paſſe vnto the next.

§. IV.

1. Panormitan the Lawier, speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope, nor by the Church diffuſed: which Councells the Queſtion meddles not withall. 2. It were poſsible, he thinks, for God, conſidering his abſolute power, to conſerue the true faith in one man or woman. 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells.

PVto tamen quod ſi Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus & authoritatibus quàm Concilium, quod ſtandum eſſet ſententiae ſuae. Nam & Concilium poteſt errare, ſicut a • iàs errauit ſuper matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem & raptum. Et infrà Nec obſtat ſi dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest errare, quia Chriſtus orauit pro Eccleſia ſua vt non deficeret &c. Quia dico quod licet Concilium Generale repraeſentet totam Eccleſiam vniuerſalem, tamen in veritate ibi non eſt verè Eccleſia vniuerſalis, ſed repraeſentatiuè; quia vniuerſalis Eccleſia conſtituitur ex collectione omnium fidelium. Vnde omnes fideles orbis constituunt iſtam Eccleſiam vniuerſalem, cuius cap •• t & ſponſus eſt Chriſtus. Et infrà. Et iſta est Eccleſia qua no poteſt errare (credendo ſcilice • ; controuerſia autem eſt de errore in docendo; ſiue de infallibili aſsiſtentia ijs exhibita quibus incumbit officium docendi, congregationem hanc vniuerſalem) Vnde poſſibile eſt quod vera fides Chriſti remaneret in vno ſolo: ita quod verum eſt dicere, quod fides non deficit in Eccleſia; ſicut ius vniuerſitatis potest manere in vno ſolo, alijs peccantibus. Baro p. 367. ex Nicolao Panormitane.

1. PANORMITAN. This man is called from the Canon-lawe to ſaie ſome thing in a matter appertaining to Deuinitie, and two things are wrunge out of him whilſt heVide 36. q. 2. & Almain. Pot. Eccl. c. 17. miſtakes a Canon of a particular Councell, which wee muſt anſwer vnto. One is, that a Councell may erre; another, that it is poſſible the faith of Chriſt remaine in one onelie.

Concerning the firſt; it is one thing to ſaie that a Councell may erre, and another thing to ſaie that a generall Councell may; he ſaith a Councell may, and in proofe thereof makes inſtance in that of Meaux, which was a particular one, not a generall. Againe; it is one thing to ſaie that a generall Councell may; another thing to ſaie that a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope or by the vniuerſall Church receaued, may erre.

Now that the Councell which he ſpeakes of (be it that he may be vnderſtood of a generall) is not a Councell by the Pope approued or by the Church receaued; I argue from hence, that he compares the Pope and Councell together as diſtinct, conſidering the Pope without the Councell and the Councell without the Pope, touching which compariſon he hath two poſitions, the one, that Panor. de electione cap. ſignificasti. in his quae ſunt iuris poſitiuï, Papa eſt ſupra Concilium, in things appertaining to the poſitiue lawe the Pope is aboue the Councell; that Councell ſure, which includes not him; or his authoritie. The other (which he did not himſelf adhere to much leſſe proue; vide ſuprà pag. 70.) in concernentibus fidē Ibidem. Concilium eſt ſupra Papam, in things appertaining to faith the Councell is aboue the Pope; and preſentlie he begins to tell how the Pope is to conforme himſelfe, vnles perchance his reaſons be better; where againe it is manifeſt that the Pope was not included in the Councell which he ſpake of. So that if any thing be collected out of him to contradict vs it is by vertue of the ſecond part. Vnles perchance you thinke this a good argument, the vniuerſall Church cannot erre, as he affirmes, therefore an approued Councell may. And if you should admit the forme (which Logicians will not doe) you muſt admit this; the vniuerſall Church is that Church which cannot erre, therefore S. Paul might erre, and ſo might the Euangeliſts and all the Fathers and Bishops that euer were. For they were not the vniuerſall Church; though they were in it.

Neither will the ſecond part, or aſſertion of his, ſerue the turne; ſince it is onlie de poſsibili, an aſſertion of a poſſibilitie; and this too, not de lege ordinaria, ſince the comming of the holie Ghost and eſtablishing of Paſtors and doctors that wee be not wauering; but de potentiâ abſolutâ; if the power of al mightie God (remouing in our mind, all ſuppoſitions and promiſes now made,) be conſidered abſolutelie, in it ſelfe. In which caſe, the lawier makes this Argument; once the faith remained in one (ſo he thought it did in the time of the paſſion; as if all Chriſtians there preſent beſides our B. Lady, and thoſe alſo which our Sauiour had perſuaded all the time and in all places that he preached; and all which Reuerſi autem 72. &c. Luc. 10. the diſciples had inſtructed in what part of the world ſoeuer, had at once loſt their faith: yet the lawier who takes it vpon truſt, will ſuppoſe it;) once according to that imagination, the faith remained in one, therefore it is not a thing impoſsible in it ſelfe, therefore it may be (though not according to the courſe which our ſauiour hath eſtablished, yet) according to Gods abſolute power. If he hath not inſinuated this abſolute power vnder theſe termes ſo farre as Cameracenſis Quaeſt. de Reſumpta, vt ſuprà lit. m. Cameracenſis and Ockam. Dial. p. 1. li 5. c. 31. fine. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Ockam, whence he ſuperficiallie gleaned it, in the like occaſion haue donne; you are too beare with him, as being a Lawier, not accuſtomed to the termes of ſchoole-deuines.

For my part I cannot thinke ſo poorelie of him as to imagine that he did not knowe the Church is a kingdome which Dan. 7. shall not be corrupted, that the gates of Hieruſalem shall be Eſa. 60 & 62. open ſtill, and the watchmen which God hath placed on her walles shall neuer hold their peace, that our Sauiour hath eſtablished a Hierarchie Epheſ. 4. till all meete in vnitie of faith, that euen in the hardeſt times of all there shall be Matth. 24. electi choſen people, and that the Apocal. 20. vide Diſp. p. 53. camp of the Saincts and beloued cittie shall be diffuſed ouer the breadth of the earth, Matt. 16. and conſtantlie (to the glorie of her Prince and Founder,) in that extreameſt tryall maintaine her faith and alleageance againſt Hell gates, when the deuil is let looſe, and doth oppoſe her with all his art and furie.

The inferēce Panormitan makes vpon the caſe which he ſaid poſſible in the ſence before declared, is a ſtrange one; for he will haue it in that ſuppoſition to be true to ſaie fides nō deficit in Eccleſia faith in the Church faileth not; as if one man were fidelium Congregatio, a Church, a Hierarchie; ſubiect and ſuperiour, prieſt and clerk. That it should beginne, or end, or be continued in one, as a line is begunne or ended or continued with a point, a diuiſible by an indiuiſible, were ſomething; but one perſon to be a Church, is as ſtrange as it is for vnitie to be multitude, or an indiuiſible to be deuided.

ANtoninus p. 3. tit. 23. c. 2. § 6. haec omnia quae a Panormitano dicta ſunt de Papa, Concilijs, & Eccleſia vniuerſali, amplectitur. Baro p. 368.

3. IN confirmation of the Lawiers ſuppoſed teſtimonie, there is cited Antoninus (the Queſtion being not of lawiers but of Deuines) as ſubſcribing to Panormitans doctrine of the Pope, Councels and vniuerſall Church; or, as the Miniſter ſpeakes, imbracing it. Whereas he doth onlie recite Panormitans words, Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd &c. and hauing repeated them, concludes, haec ille. So paſſing immediatlie to another, Petrus de Ancharano &c. without more adoe. Yet ſince you will needes confound their opinions in this matter and make them both one; one, and the Deuine rather, (the matter appertaining to Deuinitie,) may deliuer it for them both; which he doth in this tenour.

Antoninus. Ad illum pertinet Sanctum canonizare, ad quem pertinet quaeſtiones fidei determinare. Quod quidem planū eſt ſpectare ad Summum Pō tificem. S. Antoninus in ſumma p. 3. tit. 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege etiam ſi placet §. 3. eiuſdem tit. Apoſtoli in Euangelijs & Epiſtolis affirmauerūt in omni doctrina Petrum eſſe loco Domini. Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cyrillo. Quaeritur vtrum authoritas vniuerſalis Eccleſiae in determinatione fidei principaliter reſideat in Papa. Reſpondet S. Thomas affirmatiue 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Poſtquam aliqua eſſent authoritate vniuerſalis Eccleſiae determinata, ſi quis tali ordinationi pertinaciter repugnaret, haereticus cenſeretur. Quae quidem authoritas principaliter reſidet in Summo Pontifice. Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quoties fidei ratio ventilatur, arbitror omnes fratres noſtros & coepiſcopos non niſi ad Petrum, id eſt, ad ſui nominis authoritatem referri debere, & caetera vſque finem vt habentur in S. Thoma loco cit. S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19. Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil ſtatuere potuiſſent, niſi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente; ſine qua etiam Concilium congregari non poteſt. §. 20. ex codem S. Thom. li contra impugn. relig. To him appertaines the canonizing of Saints, to whom it belongeth to determine queſtions touching the faith: which manifestlie appertaines vnto the Pope. (n) The queſtion is whether the Authoritie of the vniuerſall Church in determination of faith reſide principallie in the Pope, Saint Thomas (they be Antoninus his words which I relate) anſwers affirmatiuelie, that, after things be determined by the authoritie of the vniuerſall Church, if any ſtubbornelie reſiſt or withſtand that ordination, he should be eſteemed an Heretick. Which Authoritie is chieflie in the Pope. And to this tenet of Saint Thomas, Antoninus there ſubſcribeth; denying to the the Bishops power to ordaine in this manner, or to call a Councell to this purpoſe, without the Popes Authoritie.Concilium non ſolum comprehendit Papam vt caput, quod eſt principale in Concilijs: ſed etiam & reliquum corpus Eccleſiae, vt alios Praelatos: de quo Concilio inquit Propheta; Non abſcondi miſericordiam tuam & veritatem tuam à Concilio multo. Idem tit. 23. c. 1. A Councell doth not include onlie the Pope as Head, which is chiefe in Councels; but the rest of the bodie withall, as other Prelates. Of which Councell the Prophet ſaith I haue not hid thy mercie and thy truth from a great Councell.A Concilijs vanitatis & malignitatis abſcondit Deus miſericordiam & veritatem: ſed non abſcondit à Concilio multorum, ſc. tendentium ad vnum &c. Ibidem §. 1. From Councels of vanitie and malignitie God doth hïde his mercie and his truth: but he hideth them not from the Councell of many tending vnto one &c. Ea quae ſtatuuntur in huiuſmodi Concilijs generalibus omnes fideles aſtringunt. Idem, eod tit. cap. 2. in principio. things conſtituted in ſuch generall Councels oblige all the faithfull.

§. V.

1. Cuſanus held the infallibilitie of generall decrees. 2. The words obiected out of him against vs, are indeed plainely for vs; as in the reading of them (they are at leingth in the Addition) it doth appeare.

CArdinalis Cuſanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc vt eorum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa & infallibilia, quaſdam conditiones requirit &c. Ba • o. p 368.

1. CVSANVS. This man is brought to teach vs, and to teach the whole Church, the conditions of a generall Councell; as if none were good, but ſuch as he liked of, and approued he was a yonge man when he wrote his booke, andFinit collectio &c. quam ſacro huic Baſilienſi Concilio cum omni humilitate offero, nihil in omnibus verū aut defendendum pro vero iudicans ſeu aſſerēs niſi quod ipſa ſancta Synodus catholicum & verum iudicauerit. Cuſanus in fine Cōcordantiae ſuae Catholicae. earneſt for the Councell of Baſill, though he changed his minde Vide eiuſdem Epiſt. ad Rodericum da Treuino. afterwards. Neither is the Queſtion heere what be the conditions of a Councell; but, Whether a generall Councell which hath all conditions that are neceſſarie, and is by the Pope approued, be aſſiſted to the definition of the truth and be infallible? in which matter wee shall eaſilie knowe Cuſanus his minde.

In the third chapter, which you cite, he recites the words of Nicolas the firſt, terming ſuch decrees Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3. diuinitus inſpiratas ſententias, ſentences inſpired by God. And after, of himſelfe he ſaith,Ibidem, ſi concordanti ſententia aliquid fuerit definitum, per Spiritum Sanctum cenſetur inſpiratum, & per Chriſtum in medio congregatorum in eius nomine praeſidentem, infallibiliter iudicatum. If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence, it is eſteemed inſpired by the holy Ghoſt, and iudged or determined by Chriſt praeſiding in the middes of them that are aſſembled in his name. This he declares in the Councell of Nice, whereof the greatConc. Chalc. act. 1. Councell of Chalcedon ſaith, that, the holie Ghost did did there certainlie remaine or ſitt amongſt the Fathers, and ordaine the things which were there ordained. And then concludes Cuſan. c. 3. vt ſuprà. talia fuerunt omnia orthodoxa Concilia, ſuch haue bene all Councells orthodoxall.

As for the conditions he ſpeakes of, none which he thought neceſſarie, be wanting in thoſe generall Councells which wee maintaine. The preſence of the fiue Patriarkes he doth not require but when they be Catholik, nor then neither, but for the more fullnes of the Councell. Others may be perfect which haue not all; but that which hath all, is, he ſaith, ſynodus Ibidem. perfectiſsima, moſt perfect in that kinde. One may haue the whole eſſence of a man, all the eſſentiall parts; and yet not be moſt perfect. Our Councells are not made in ſecret; they be aſſembled, and openlie, from all parts of the world whereſoeuer the Catholick Church is; and ſuch as come may freelie ſpeake and are heard. They looke into ſcriptures, and former Councells, and Antiquitie, to finde the truth; and, though in the ſearch it might appeare to ſome ſooner then others, yet all in the end approue and propoſe, it.

DEbet ſacrum Concilium vniuerſale, regulis Sancti Spiritus, tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Concilijs apertis, dirigi, maximè in negotio fidei, quae vna & inuariabilis neceſſario ſicut fuit, permanebit: & ſcripturas rimari in dubijs, ſicut in ſexto vniuerſali Concilio actum fuit, & alijs multis; & tunc definitio ex allegatis ſumpta, abſque errore neceſſariò erit Vnde ſi ea non ſeruantur maximè libera omnium audientia, ac vbi atiqua attentarentur in ſynodis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Eccleſiae; proteſtatio iuſtè, ac ſimul & appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest. Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diuerſo charactere notantur.

2. NEither is there cauſe to feare that a Councell, aſſiſted by the holie Ghoſt and defining, will contradict, either ſcripture, or theEx hoc etiā elici poteſt, fidē Romanae Eccleſiae, in nulla ſynodo vniuerſali retractari poſſe. Cutan. Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Auguſti • us li. 1. con. Donatiſtas, volens ſtabili fundamento ex de • iſione vniuerſalis Concilij fidem probare, Iam ne videar • umanis argumentis id agere &c. Idem c. 5. vid • s quanta • niuerſalibus Concilijs authoritas ineſt, dum rectè cele • antur. Vnde Auguſtinus l. 1 Serm. con. Pelagianos, di • , matris Eccleſiae hanc eſſe authoritatem, quod quiſquis • ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat, ipſe confrin • ut. Ibidem. faith of former times; he that • s chieflie intereſſed in the buſines, vnderſtands all things clearlie, and cannot contradict a veritie.

That which is obiected vpon oc • aſion of S. Auguſtines words, that de verbis S. Auguſtini cum aliquo experimēto rerum &c. fuſius agemus ſuo loco. a plenarie Councell may faile in the experiment of things, and in that caſe iudge amiſſe, makes nothing to the purpoſe; for wee diſpute not of infallibilitie in things which may be found out by tryall or experiment; but in matters reuealed, and of faith.

§. VI.

Clemangis profeſſed, to reuerence the authoritie of Councells; and only to propoſe ſome doubts for his inſtruction in ſome things touching them.

NIcolaus de Clemangis in diſputatione cum ſcholastico Pariſienſi, quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Pontificiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate, manifeſtè pugnant Baro p. 370. Dicit Concilium generale errare poſſe in controuerſijs morum Baro Ibidem.

CLEMANGIS. His worke i • Index libr. prohibit. Conc. Trid. forbidden; and his frind t • whom he directed it, perceaued i • came fromQuanquam Deum ac conſciētiam teſtari liceat, nullatenus ſtomachato animo illa fuiſſe ſcripta quod miror tibi viſum eſſe, quia tamen vndecun que hoc euenerit, ita tibi viſum eſt, vt tuae quantum fas fuerit volū tati ac petitioni morem geram, dulciora ac ſedatiora enitar. Clemang. ad ſcholaſt. Pariſ. p 599. edit Pariſienſi, anno 1576. diſcontent; being forced as appeares by his owne EpiſtleOpreſſus nā que (vt noſti) ante aliquot annos aemulolorum inſultatione me tunc grauiſſimè perſequentium, ex vrbe illa fui excedere compulſus latebraſque à facie tempeſtatis cōtra me iniuſtè admodum illic ſaeuiētis alibi quaerere. p. 600. latebras quaerere, to plaie, leaſt • ſight. He writes bitterlie againſt the Clergie; belike they made him flie. Touching Councells; he doth not contradict their authoritie; (howſoeuer he miſtakes the manner of defending it:) but onlie writes vnto a freind to be informed better in it; proteſting both to honour them, and to be readie to amend what in his writing should be thought amiſſe. Heare ſome of his owne words.Idem pa. 587. Verilie I reuerentlie receaue, and faithfullie embrace, all Councells, as well ſuch as longe agoe haue been duelie celebrated, as alſo thoſe which are celebrated now adaies: and God forbid that I should thinke or ſpeake any ſiniſter thing of them. Neither should I therefore be calumniated as leſſe ſincerelie eſteeming them, in that for the instruction of my ignorance I ſeeke to know, and deſire to haue declared vnto me, ſome things; that I may not only thinke of them well and faithfullie, but alſo according to the capacitie of my litle wit, trulie and wiſelie ſpeake of them. And a litle after.Clemang. pa. 588. I deſire to be taught by thee, whether thou thinkeſt it muſt be beleeued as a Catholike veritie, that in thoſe things which be of fact, or of manners, or of iudgments, a generall Councell can neuer be deceaued, as well as it is faithfullie beleeued that it cannot erre in faith. And in the end. Idem pa. 598. alioquin temerariū eſſet minus intellecta velle à ſapientoribus diſcere; quamuis etiam certè paratus ſim, ſi ea quae me mouent dubia explicando aliquid in radice veritatis minus fundatum aut alicuius fortaſſe ſcandadali illatiuum nimis aſtruere viderer, aut fideli admonitu illud eradere, aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare. Ibidem. I intend (as I haue oft alreadie ſaid, neither am I loath to repeate it) in theſe or other writings to affirme nothing but that which may be altogeather agreeable to the Catholike integritie. But in caſe I haue propoſed, not affirming, but doubting; or arguing; any thing, leſſe certaine or true, whereby I may be the more fullie informed of the certaintie, I thinke that should not be thought rashnes in me. And the reſt which you finde cited in the Addition.

DIcit Chriſti aſſistentiam &c. ad ſolos ſanctos & ſpirituales pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obſcure innuit eam perſuaſionem ſeu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumeſcunt, eſſe Eccleſiae admodum pernicioſam Idem p. 371.

ANd whereas he propoſeth by waie of doubt, that holy mē only were to be heard ſpeaking out of a Councell; he ſeemes not to haue remēbred what our B. Sauiour ſaid of Scribes and Phariſees teaching out of Moyſes chaire, quae dicunt facite, imitate not their workes, but practice what they teach.

That ſuch as doe celebrate a Councell should not, nimis inniti, to much inſiſt or preſume, on this, that they are a generall Councell, as if therefore they might freelie doe quaecunque libuerit, doth not make againſt vs; it denies not to a Councell, infallibilitie; as he denies it not to Prophets and Apoſtles, who ſaies they should not relie to much therevpon, as if therefore they might doe what they liſted. Moreouer his ſpeach is qualified by himſelfe if you marke it, non debent vt videtur, andClemang. pa. 597. non vtile crediderim illos inniti; mee thinks they should not; I should not eſteeme it profitable for them to relie &c.

§ VII.

1. Canus defends the infallibilitie of approued Councells. 2. His opinion of others which are not confirmed or approued Councells. 3. It is a ſophiſticall proceeding, to impugne one veritie with another veritie.

FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuerſalem Eccleſiam repreſentare. Sed dum vrges Eccleſiam errare non poſſe, verum eſt in eo ſenſu qui à fidelibus accipitur. Intelligimus enim totam ſimul Eccleſiam, hoc eſt, fideles omnes non errare: at nihil obſtat cur maior Eccleſia pars non erret. Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc. 5. c. 5.

CANVS, Is pretended to contradict vs; though he be knowne to maintaine the Councells infallibilitie, ſuch as wee ſpeake of: adding withall, that the contrarie is hereticall. In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke, where he treates of that controuerſie, his third concluſion is,Tertia Concluſio. Concilium generale confirmatū authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatū. Quam quidem concluſionē ita exploratā habere opus eſt vt eius cōtrariam haereticam eſſe credamus. Canus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome, doth make certaine the faith of Catholike tenets. Which he there proues with many reaſons; reſoluing alſo the doubts which Heretikes obiect againſt it.

2. Hauing eſtablished that authoritie, he diſputes further, whether 〈◊〉 Councell not confirmed by the Pope, hat • certaine and firme authoritie or no? ſome learned menDubium excutiendum eſt, an Concilium per legatos sū mi Pōtificis celebratum, firmam certāque habeat authoritatem; an potius epiſcopi Romani confirmatio expectāda ſit vt certa habeā tur decreta Cō cilij. Idem c. 5. viri doctiſsimi, doe affirme it; becauſe it repreſents the vniuerſall Church, which cannot erre. Wherevnto Canus anſwers, that the whole Church or an approued Councell, (which doth perfectlie repreſent it,) cannot erre; but a part of either, may.Ibidem. The iudgment (ſaith he) of the greater part (of the Councell) though the Legates follow it, is not certaine: certum autem eſſet ſi a ſummo Pontifice confirmaretur, but if it should be confirmed by the Pope, it would be certaine. And in the ſame manner he doth anſwer to a ſecond argument of aſſiſtance, made for the ſame purpoſe.Ibidem: euen as (ſaith he) that which ſeemeth good to the whole Church, the ſame alſo ſeemeth good to the holie Ghoſt; but not preſentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged, the ſame is the iudgment of the holie Ghost: ſo if anything be iudged by all the Bishops, it is verilie iudged by the ſpirit of God; but not preſentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one ſentence, shall it be to be beleeued the ſentence of the holie Ghoſt vnles it be confirmed by the Pope.

3. By the waie I obſerue here two things; one is, that if an author interprete thoſe words Eccleſia errare non poteſt, the Church cannot erre, of the whole or vniuerſall Church, it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall approued Councells, which are perfect repreſentations of the Church diffuſed; for this Simile, in S. Antonino obſeruare licet de quo ſuprà. Et nota, poſt verba ab aduerſarijs citata (vt ſupa pag. 86.) ſeq • i immediatè in authore, ſic igitur non ego admitto, vt totum Concilium cū legatis errare poſsit: at errare poterit maior p •• s Conc • lij, & e •• nti illi poterū • le gatis ſubſcribere. A • que id eſt quod nos in praeſentia dicimus, • udicium maioris partis etiam ſi legati ſequantur, non eſſe certum; certùm autem eſſet ſi à ſummo Pontificeconfirmaretur. Nec enim opus eſt, quemad modūpaulò antè docuimus, ſententiā Concilij omnes ſimul patres approbare. Canus li. 5. c. 5, q. • . man whom you cite for the former part, doth alſo maintaine the later. And the manner of arguing, is indeed abſurd; becauſe it would impugne one truth by another. As if I should ſaie; the whole Goſpell of S. Iohn is the vndoubted word of God, therefore the firſt Chapter of it is not. And were it admitted, it would proue, as before I ſaid on the ſame occaſion, that euerie Apoſtle, yea all the Apoſtles and Fathers might haue conſented in a groſſe, yea and in the moſt fundamentall errour: becauſe they be not the whole and vniuerſall Church.

The other thing which I obſerue, is, that without ſinceritie or conſcience you doe make vſe of mens words, contrarie to their knowne profeſſed meaning and intention; which proceeding, eſpeciallie in matter of religion, is inexcuſable. The like obſeruation I might haue made in Antoninus, who is alleaged againſt that which he did openlie maintaine.

§. VIII.

1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extenſion in diuine aſsiſtance; and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith. 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed, doth not any way impeach the promiſe of aſsistance and infallibilitie in all that doth intrinſecallie appertaine to the ſubſtance of diuine faith.

QVando de ijs quaeſtionibus quae vel non neceſſariò ad fidem pertinent, ſed ſalua fidei compage variè a varijs intellig • poſſunt &c. conſulitur vel obiter diſputat Eccleſia aberrare aliquando poterit &c. ex Stap.

1. STAPLETON, is brought, as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells, then Proteſtants doe; becauſe he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious ſubtilities, and queſtions indifferent vnto faith; nor thinke it ſo ample in obiect as was that of the Apoſtles. Where, firſt it is to be conſidered, that as in faith or ſcience, ſo likewiſe in aſſiſtance or infallibilitie, more or leſſe extenſion doth not change the nature of the thing. Mathematicall ſcience in one is more extended then in another; one knowes more concluſions then another doth; yet is it in both, of the ſame nature. The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the ſame Species and kinde, as the Deuines teach; though one by it knowes more, another leſſe. Faith, in vs, and in the Apoſtles; before, and ſince the Incarnation; is of the ſame nature: but more extended in the Apoſtles, then in vs; and ſince the incarnation, more generallie, then it was before. The like wee ſaie of aſsiſtance or infallibilitie in iudgment; it hath been more extended, in ſome, then in others; more at one time, then at another.

Secondlie it is to be conſidered that the Apoſtles, who did write ſcripture; had infallibilitie inSinguli Apoſtoli de omnibus pleniſsimè à Deo inſtructierant, ita vt eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem ſiuè neceſſariò ſiue nō neceſſariò pertinente, pronunciare potuiſſet: idquetanta certitudine, vt non ſolum paſtores eſſent fideliſsimi, ſed etiā magiſtri peritiſsimi, omniaque etiam ſubtiliſsima circa fidei myſteria penerarent. Staeplet, de princip. fidei Doctrinal. li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apoſtolis modo diximus, vt non ſolum in doctrina, ſed etiam in forma docendi infallibili veritate niterentur, peculiare hoc Deus eſſe voluit &c. Ibidem. all they did affirme; whether the matter were dogmaticall, or hiſtoricall; whether ſubſtance, or circumſtance: whatſoeuer they did affirme, and put into the Scripture, it is a truth. But the infallibilitie of Councells is not ſo ample; it is not ſo farre extended. This Stapleton doth proue in the place obiected; where, hauing giuen the prerogatiue to that in ſacred writers and Apoſtles, he concludes,Natura nihilominus ac ſubſtantia poteſtatis ac certitudinis, eadem eſt Eceleſiae nunc, & illius Apoſtolorum: ſicut fontis ac riuuli inde fluentis eadem eſt in ſpecie & bonitate naturali aqua, niſi ab aliquo extrinſeco immutetur: quod his fieri non poteſt quia ſemper eundum Spiritum Sanctum magiſtrum (tanquā formalē rationem puritati • & ſynceritatis tam fontis quam riuuli) ſucceſſores habent quē Apoſtoli ipſi habebant: licet in alio diuerſo gradu. Ibidē. the nature notwithſtanding and ſubſtance of the power and certitude, of the Church now▪ and of that of the Apoſtles, is all one. All one in ſubſtance; but, In the Apoſtles euerie waie exact, as reaching to the decrees, and to the meanes o • proofes; and to the conſequence o • forme; and to the circumſtances all; and this, in all kinde of matter▪ In the Succeſſors, not ſo farre exact; nor in that extenſion or fullnes; but in alio gradu; in another, an inferior, a more limitted, and contracted, degree.

In the ſameApoſtoli hanc certitudinem omnimodam & ſapientientiam habuerunt tam in medijs quam in fine. Conſeruare autem prius tradita &c. quia non tam praeclara & exacta ſapientia indiget, ſed ſatis habet ſi diligenter acceptis & • emel traditis inſiſtat; indefit quod Eccleſia ſuccedens tan • a certitudine in ipſis medijs non dirigitur. Neque enim • nta argumentorum certitudine opus eſt aperire & expli • are quod virtute in ſemine fidei later, aliudque ex alio • e lucere, quam de nouo rem penitus ignoratam explorare 〈◊〉 docere. Sic enim Philoſophi &c. atque haec vna cauſa • ſt quare tantam infallibilitatem in ipſa forma & ratione • ocendi, ſucceſſorum, Eccleſia non deſideret, quantam • pſi Apoſtoli. Stapl. doctr. fidei cont. 4. li. 8. c. 15. place (to ſatisfie by the way another doubt) you may finde cleerelie deliuered, what ſome haue miſtaken touching his minde, in theMetere quae alij ſeminauerunt, exacta & omnimoda infallibilitate non indiget; ſed ſatis eſt ſemel acceptis diligenter inſistere. Neque tanta certitudine opus eſt aperire & explicare &c. quam de nouo rempenitus ignoratam explorare. Ex Staplet. Relec. contro. 4. q. 2. Relection: thoſe words, tanta, • nd omnimoda, or exacta; which are • ound there; import in him, a compariſon; not in the ſubſtance of the • ertaintie, or infallibilitie, or aſſiſtance; that, as he ſaid before, is, eadem, the ſame; but, in modo, in the quantitie, manner, and degree, which • s diuers. Out of which diuerſitie in the manner, and quantitie, or extenſion, it comes, that the ſucceſſors doe not reach vnto the meanes or • rguments, and conſequences, and • acts, and circumſtances, ſo vniuerſallie, with as ample, and in euerie • ne of thoſe reſpects as immoueable a • ertaintie, as the firſt Maſters and Planters of Religion, and writers of the ſcripture, did; who were to • aie the foundation, and by waie of • euelation to deliuer, what the Church in after times was to inſiſt vpon.

Thirdlie it is to be conſidered, that, the Paſtors in Councell, according to this Author, (and, as by their Acts you may perceaue) doe proceed, Sometimes as Deuines, deducing or inferring one thing out of another, and Sometimes as Witneſſes of the faith and iudges of controuerſie, deciding and teſtifying the truth, and propoſing it to the world to be embraced and beleeued. The former is a preamble to the later; in which later, it is alwaies infallible whether it be, or be not ſo, neceſſarilie, and alwaies, in the former, from which further Queſtion wee do heere abſtract. The reaſon is becauſe their decrees are generallie propoſed to all, not to be ſeene or knowne ſcientificallie, that waie were verie ſingugular; the moſt part of Chriſtians is not able to conceaue it: but, to be beleeued. The Ibidem. Church (ſaith th • Author) doth not teach, ex arte, ſed ex authoritate, not by art, but by authoritie, neither doth she conclude as it were by Theologicall ſcience, of God and diuine things, but by the Paſtorall pow • which from God she hath receaued, s • doth giue ſentence or determine. Our Sauiour did not open a ſchoole of ſcience but of faith; neither did he ſend his diſciples to proue the Goſpell, but to preach it, And, teach indeed he bid them; but ſo, as by testifying and preaching they should doe it; not by proueing or diſputing. Eccleſiae paſtoribus & magiſtris decernē tibus creditur, non quia legitimè probarunt quod decernūt; ſed quia apertè decernūt & tradunt ſic eſſe credendum; ſiue decretū ſuum ex legitimis medijs probaſſe nobis cōſtet, ſiue non. Haec enim eſt obedientia fidei de qua diſſeruimus. Ibidem.

Fourthlie it is to be conſidered that the infallibilitie of the Church-decrees, depends vpon theIoan. 14. promiſed aſſiſtance; which was not to all veritie poſsible, nor to all that is actuall neither; but to reuealed onlie, docebit vos omnia, & ſuggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero, is the promiſe. The ſpirit of truth, the holie Ghoſt, shall teach you all things and ſuggeſt vnto you all what ſoeuer I shall haue ſaid vnto you. To things not reuealed, the promiſe was not extended. The courſe was taken for bearing in minde and vnderſtanding, the leſſon which Gods eternall Word hath giuen: and whatſoeuer, in this kinde, the Church doth determine and propoſe to the faithfull to beleeue, is true. Neither can she propoſe any thing in this manner, which is not indeed ſuch as she declares it to be; she hauing diuine guidance and aſſiſtance, in euerie ſuch act. This, which you denie, Stapleton doth teach.Stapl. Relect. cont. 4. q. 2. not. 4. Eccleſia in concluſione fidei ſemper eſt certiſsima & infallibilis. Marke that, ſemper; the Church, in the concluſion of faith, is alwaies moſt certaine and infallible. So that if you finde any thing declared by the Church to be de fide, it is, according to his tenet, moſt certaine; and may no further be diſputed. And in anotherStaplet. de princip. ſi. contr. 4. li. 8. c. 15. place, Eccleſia, quia non ratione, ſed authoritate, aſsiſtentia, & prouidentia diuina, nititur, eamque infallibiliter promiſſam habet, nec prater veritatem, nec erroneè, nec contra Deum, vllo modo decernere potest. The Church, becauſe it relyeth, not on reaſon, but on the diuine authoritie, prouidence, and aſsiſtance, and hath it infalliblie promiſed vnto her, can in no ſort or manner, nullo modo, determine beſides the truth, or erroneouſlie, or againſt God. Whence it followes, as before, that if the Church doth applie her teſtimonie vnto any booke, auouching and publikelie declaring it, to be ſcripture; or to any propoſi • ion, determining it to be a point of • aith, and propoſing it vnto the world for ſuch; there can be, accor • ing to this author, no further que • tion made of it: ſince the diuine • rouidence doth ſo guide her, that • n ſuch definitions, she, in no ſort, • an iudge erroneouſlie, or determine • eſides the truth.

• . Neither is this integritie in de •• nition violated, or our ſauiours promiſe of aſſiſtance broken, if, not in matter of diuine beleefe, (ſuch as • or the good of his Church God • ath reuealed,) but inLongè aliter ſe habent quaeſtiones iſtae quas eſſe prae • er fidem arbitratur (Celeſtius,) quàm ſunt illae in quibus • lua fide qua Chriſtiani ſumus, aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 & ſententia definitiua ſuſpenditur; aut aliter quam eſt, • umana & infirma ſuſpicione conijcitur. Vel ••• cum quae •• tur, qualis vel vbi ſit Parad • ſus; cum tamen eſſe illum • aradiſum fides Chriſtiana non dubitet. Vel cum quaeri • r vbi nunc ſit Elias &c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in cor • ore vel extra corpus in ter • ium caelum ſit raptus Apo • olus &c. vel quot ſunt Caeli, &c. vel vtrum elementa • undi huius conſpicabilis quatuor, an plura ſint &c. vbi • otuit Methuſalem viuere &c. Quis non ſentiat in his at • e huiuſmodi varijs & innumerabilibus quaeſtionibus, ſine ad • bſcuriſsima opera Dei ſiue ad Scripturarum abditiſsi • as latebras pertinentibus, quas certo aliquo gener • complecti ac definire difficile eſt, & multa ignorari ſalua Chriſtiana fide, & alicubi errari ſine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine. S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Pelag. & Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq. 3. 4. 5. other queſtions which it hath not pleaſed him by reuelation to diſcouer; (as, where is Elias, where Paradice, how many heauens, &c.) not in definition, and atteſtation; but in ſome particularIt is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles; and another thing to argue out of others. Of this later kind of deduction I ſpeake heere. deduction and coniecture, she doth inferre amiſſe. Not euerie conſequence orillation, not euerie thing ſyllogiſticallie inferd out of premiſes, in matter of that nature; hath infallibilitie, according to this Author; but, the definitions and decrees, all, haue it. If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other, you may reade him, or Canus; or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells, where you may, with litle ſtudie, diſcerne it.

If it be replied, that in his fourth Controuerſie, he ſeemes to limit and contract the obiect of aſſiſtance, to points onlie fundamentall, excluding all other: I anſwer, that euenDocendi infallibilitas in cauſa fidei Eccleſiae data, tā tummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis, & fideli populo ce • ta veritate tradē dis locum habet, quae vel in cōtrouerſiam vocantur, vel alioqui ad publicā Eccleſiae fidem neceſſariò pertinent. Staplet. fid. doc. li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaeſtionibus quae vel non neceſſariò ad fidem pertinēt &c. vel non ad publicum aliquod & commune dogma explicandum (quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vſu verſatur, vel ſaltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur, populus autem implicitè, in maiorum fide) ſed ad priuatam alicuius &c. Ibidem. there, he doth extend it to all points of faith, which, either are called into controuerſie (at any time wherein the Church is) or otherwiſe doe neceſſarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church. In which compaſſe, is contained, all, that is in the Councell of Trent defined, againſt you: or in any other oecumenicall Councell propoſed, to be beleeued. Your maſters, Luther, Caluin, and others, called into queſtion diuers things, appertaining, and intrinſecallie as parts, to the ſubſtance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exerciſe of Religion, as, bookes of holie ſcripture, iuſtification, Sacraments, and the Maſſe. And therefore, if according to Stapleton, the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vn •• all points of faith called into queſtion, it is according to the ſame tenet, extended vnto theſe; which he beleeued ſo to pertaine to faith. But, in queſtions that are impertinēt, orSuch as ſome aboue, pag. 97. litter. i. in marg. indifferent; or, that appertaine onlie to the direction of ſome one, that is weake in iudgment, and in ſome priuate caſe; or, to the ſatisfaction of ſome proude mans curioſitie: to conclude; in queſtions, that appertaine to the explicatiō of thoſe things which are (appendices,) additions, rather then contained in, or appertaining to, the ſubſtance of faith, if the Church should miſtake, it were not (he thinks) any preiudice to the graunt of aſſiſtance, or the promiſed infallibilitie: not, if in matter of this nature, she should affirme, or (diſcourſing as a Diuine, which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth,) should inferre, and logicallieVel aſſerendo vel etiam concludendo. Ibidem. conclude, amiſſe. But, to make a publike decree of that which is falſe, and propoſe it, openlie, to be beleeued of Chriſtians, as matter of faith; that she cannot; being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition, infallible, as you heard him ſaie before. And the ſame he hath proued at large, both by Scripture, and Theologicall reaſons, in diuersDoc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont. 3. q 4 cont. 4. q. 2. & alibi. places of his booke.

§. IX.

1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie.

2. Other witneſſes, or teſtimonies of other nature then that of Scripture, and not recommended by it or by the author of it, wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture. 3. The compariſon of Scripture with other writings, in authoritie. His forbearing to preſſe an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice. 4. The Donatiſts refuſing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike, and conſequentlie of her Councells too, and admitting Scripture, he doth challeng them to shew there the deciſion of the Controuerſie which was betwixt them and him. 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells, eſteeming them to be, in their decrees of faith, infallible. What mending that is which he ſpeakes of.

EGo ſolis eis Scriptorum qui iam ca • onici appellantur, didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum ſcribendo erraſſe audeam credere, alios autem ita lego vt qua • talibet ſanctitate doctrinaque polleant, non id • o verum pu • em quia ipſi ita ſenſerunt, ſed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos vel probabili ratione, quod à veritate non abhorreat, perſuadere potuerunt. Baro p. 333. ex Aug. Ego ſolis eis Scriptoribus qui canonici &c. Ibidem.

1. OVT of that which hath been obſerued from Stapleton, will appeare the ſence of S. Auguſtine; wherefore he comes next. There are four or fiue places cited out of him, againſt the authoritie of Councells; but, for the moſt part, verie impertinentlie; and, altogether againſt his minde. We knowe, there is a greate difference betwixt the canonicall writers, and others; betwixt the Epiſtles of the Apoſtles, and thoſe of Bishops after them; betwixt their Acts, written by S. Luke, who in all he affirmes or relates is infallible; and the Acts of generall Councells, whoſe writers had not that aſſiſtance. Wee doe not equalize, or parallell, one of theſe writings with the other. Wee giue the ſoueraigntie to the ſcripture, as being infallible in all; ſo farre, that it doth no where at all, miſtake, in any thing. This reuerence wee giue to the teſtimonie of thoſe writers, in what euer they auerr; and giue not the like to any other, teſtibus, aut teſtimonijs, be they witneſſes or teſtimonies. Albe it wee beleeue other witneſſes, in diuers things alſo; though not ſo generallie, in all, without exception. But I come to your exceptions. The first is out of the 19. Epiſtle, where

S. AVGVSTINE tells S. Hierom, to whom he writes it, that he doth not imagine he would haue him ſo reade his bookes, as if it were a heinous thing to doubt, whether perchance, in them, ſome errour might be found; that priuiledge was reſerued to ſacred writers. I confeſſe, ſaith he, that vnto thoſe bookes of ſcripture onlie which are now called canonicall, I haue learned to deferre this feare and honour, that I moſt firmelie beleeue, none of thoſe Authors, to haue erred any thing in writing; and if (in eis literis) in thoſe writings I finde any thing which may ſeeme contrarie to the truth, I make no doubt but that, either the booke or coppie is faultie, or that the interpreter hath not vnderſtood what was ſaid, or that I my ſelfe doe not conceaue or vnderſtand it. In Baroe who doth vrge this authoritie, againſt the Church and Councells decree or ſentence, and impertinentlie, you may note theſe corruptions; firſt that forSi cum doctiore amico ſic diſputemus vt quicquid dixerit neceſſe ſit approbare, nec quaerendi ſaltem cauſa liceat aliquantulum reluctari: tum verò ſine vllo timore offenſionis tanquam in cā po luditur, ſed mirum ſi nobis non illuditur. Ego enim fateor charitati tuae, ſolis eis Scripturarū libris qui iam canonici appellantur, didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre, vt nullum eorum authorem ſcribeodo aliquid erraſſe firmiſsimè credam. Ac ſi aliquid in eis offendero literis, quod videatur contrarium veritati, nihil al • ud quam vel mendoſ • m eſſe codicem, vel interpretem non aſſecutum eſſe quod lictum eſt, vel me minimè intellexiſ • e non • mb • gam. Alios autem ita lego vt q • a • ta • be • ſanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant, non ideo ve •• m p ••• m quia ipſi ita ſenſerunt; ſed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonic • s vel probabili ratione, quod à vero non abhorreat, perſuadere potuerunt. Nec te, mi frater, ſentite aliquid aliter exiſtimo; prorſus inquam non te arbitror ſic legi tuos libros velle, tanquam Prophetarum vel Apoſtolorum; de quorum ſcriptis quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium eſt. S. Aug. Epiſt. 19. ad Hier. Scripturarum libris, to accomodate it the better for his purpoſe, he puts in, Scriptorum; and Scriptoribus; vrging the word againſt vs. Secondlie he omits aliquid, in that part, nullum eorum authorum ſcribendo aliquid erraſſe, whereas the force of the ſpeach, and prerogatiue is by that word ſpecified. Thirdlie, becauſe in the words immediatlie following, if they had been put downe, his corruptions had been laid open to the reader, by another aliquid, and litteris, he leaues them out; immediatlie ioyning others which he thought to be more for his purpoſe: as by compariſon of his citation put aboue, pag. 101. to the words themſelues in this Addition, it will appeare.

QVanquam ſicut paulò ante dixi, tantummodo Scripturis canonicis hanc ingenuam debeam ſeruitutem, qua eas ſolas ita ſequar vt conſcriptores earum nihil in eis omnino erraſſe, nihil falliciter poſuiſſe non dubitem. Baro p. 335. ex S. Aug. & ad eundem ſenſum plura.

S. Auguſtines minde is further opened by another place, brought, as againſt vs, out of the ſame Epiſtle. S. Hierome had obiected againſt him ſeuen authors for his opinion in the matter whereof they diſpute in that conference made by letters: and demanding whom he followed, he, (S. Aug.) shewes firſt that S. Hierome did not approue of fower of his owne, ſo that he was to finde out onlie three to ſet againſt the three that remained; to which purpoſe he mentioneth, as fauouring him, S. Ambroſe, and S. Cyprian, vnto whom (becauſe be did not himſelfe eſteeme ſo of their authoritie, as if there might not exceptions be taken againſt their writings or opinion in ſome matter,) he addes a third, of authoritie incontroulable, namelie S. Paul. HisFlagitas á me vt aliquem ſaltem vnum oſtendam, cuius in hac reſententiam ſim ſecutus, cùm tutam plures nominatim commemoraueris, &c. cùm ſint fermè ſex vel ſeptem, horum quatuor authoritatem tu quoque infringis. Nam &c. tres igitur reſtant &c. Si quaeras quid hinc ſenſerit noſter Ambroſius, quid noſter itidem Cyprianus, inuenies fortaſſe nec nobis defuiſſe quos in eo quod aſſerimus ſequeremur: quanquam ſicut paulò ante dixi tantūmodo Scripturis &c. vt ſuprà, pag. 105. S. Auguſt. epiſt. 19. words obiected, which are by him vttered on the foreſaid occaſion, be theſe, I owe to the canonicall ſcriptures onlie this ingenuous ſeruice or ſubiection, whereby I follow them onlie ſo as I firmelie beleeue that their writers erred in them nihil omninò, nothing at all; nor put any thing in them deceitfullie. It is the verie ſame that was before deliuered out of Stapleton. And the reſt of the citations wherein he compares writings with the Scriptures haue all the ſameſence.Neque enim quorumlibet diſputationes quamuis Catholicorum & laudatorum hominum velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus, vt nobis non liceat ſalua honorificentia, quae illis debetur hominibus, aliquid in eorum ſcriptis improbare atque reſpuere, ſi forte inuenerimus quod aliter ſenſerint quam veritas habet diuino adiutorio vel ab alijs intellecta, vel à nobis. S. Aug epiſt. 111. Other bookes haue not, in euerie part, that infallibilitie; other writers haue not ſuch ample aſſiſtance, as the Sacred writers had.

SI diuinarum ſcripturarum, earum ſc. quae canonicae in Eccleſia nominantur, perspicua firmatur authoritate, ſine vllae dubitatione credendum eſt. Alijs verò teſtibus vel teſtimonijs, quibus aliquid credendum eſſe ſuadetur, tibi credere vel non credere liceat, quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis. Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epiſt. 112.

2. THe Second exception is, that S. Auguſtine in an other place (Epiſt 112.) ſpeakes not of writings only, but of witneſſes; and leaues it, as it is pretended, in our choiſe, whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture. Wherevnto I anſwer, that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings, reiect all authoritie or teſtimonie that is other, in your ſence; binding vs onlie to the ſcripture ſo as you pretend. For it is manifeſt that he doth admit the teſtimonie of the Church, as infallible; eſteeming itS. Auguſt. epist. 118. c. 5. moſt inſolent madnes to contradict it; yet the Church is not ſcripture. To this purpoſe there be many places in him, whereof I will cite one. In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. diſputing with an heretick about the Queſtion of rebaptizing ſuch as out of the Church had been baptized, and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue ſuch as were penitent into communion, without rebaptizing, he makes this diſcourſe;S. Aug. de vnit. Eccleſ. c. 19. If ſome wiſe man to whom our Lord Ieſus giues teſtimonie, should be conſulted of vs in this Queſtion, wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs, least wee should be eſteemed to repugne not ſo much him as our Lord Ieſus Chriſt, by whoſe teſtimonie he was commended: now, our Lord Ieſus doth giue teſtimonie to his Church, wherefore, as that Church (diffuſed) thorough all Nations, beginning at Hieruſalem, doth receaue ſuch (penitents,) ſo without all windings and tergiuerſation thou art to be receaued. And if thou wilt not, thou doeſt, moſt perniciouſlie, cōtrarie to thy owne ſaluation, ſtriue againſt, not me or any mā, but our Sauiour himſelfe, whilſt thou wilt not beleeue that thou art ſo to be admitted, as that Church which he (whom not to beleeue thou doeſt confeſſe to be deteſtable) commends with his teſtimonie, doth admit. The ſame is confirmed out of the Goſpell, wherein our bleſſed ſauiour ſaith to his Apoſtles, and Diſciples, and in them to the Church, that they should beare Matth. 24. Ioan.15. teſtimonie of him; yet the Apoſtles, the Diſciples, the whole Church, be not Scripture. Againe, Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me, (ſaith our Sauiour) he that contemneth you contemneth me. There is therefore an authoritie aliue, and diſtinct from the written word, which wee muſt yeeld vnto; by S. Auguſtine alſo confeſſed; and conſequentlie, it is not in our choiſe, to beleeue or contemne, any but the ſcripture. Nor were the primitiue Chriſtians without obligation of beleeuing the Goſpell propoſed vnto them by the Apoſtles, before it was written downe; as you knowe by thoſe words which immediatelie followe their commiſſion,Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned.

To the place obiected,Supra pag, 107. alijs teſtibus vel teſtmonijs quibus aliquid credendum eſſe ſuadetur, tibi creder • vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti &c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited, doe ſuggeſt an eaſie anſwer: as, this Others, not commended by this authoritie, beleeue or not beleeue, as you ſee cauſe; but, others, commended by this authoritie, you muſt beleeue, as farre as by it they are warranted and commended. Our Sauiour proued that thoſe who beleeued Moyſes and the Prophets and the Pſalmes, muſt beleeue him, for of him they giue teſtimonie. The like it is of the Church; if you beleeue the Prophets, you muſt beleeue the vniuerſall Church, for they giue teſtimonie of it, and (as S. Augustine ſaith) more cleere, then of ourS. Augu. Enarr. in pſal. 30. conc. 2. Sauiour himſelfe. One teſtimonie may warrant another, and ſo they will become, in a manner, one. He that obaieth the magiſtrate, doth therein, honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie. And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes, doth therein a dutie vnto God, who commands it. Wee ſtoope to God, when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten; and wee ſubmit our ſelues to the written word or Scripture, when wee liſten to the Church which the Scripture doth commend.

When S. Auguſtine in his diſpute with Creſconius about rebaptization, was come thisS. Aug. li. 1. contra Creſco c. 31. & 32. quia nec vos poteſtis proferre de Scripturis, quarum nobis communis eſt authoritas, ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum, nec nos ita ſuſceptum; quantum ad hanc remattinet, par nobis cauſa est. Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whoſe authoritie is common to vs, one comming from Heretikes againe baptized, nor wee one ſo receaued, for as much as concernes this matter (that is, producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other,) our cauſe is equall; he shewes notwithſtanding, how, euen in this point, the Church in his time and he with it, followed the moſt certaine authoritie of the Scripture,Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti &c. for it is not of ſmall regard or moment that, whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part (or faction) began to be, this Queſtion did wauer and had the different Opiniōs of compartners or collegues amongſt themſelues without breach of vnitie, it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obſerued by the whole Catholike (Church) ſpred ouer all the world. And a litle after. wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures, yet the truth of the ſame Scriptures is held of vs, and euen in this thing, when wee doe that which hath now ſeemed good to the vniuerſall Church, whom the authoritie of the ſame Scriptures doth commend; that becauſe the holie Scripture cannot deceaue, whoſoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obſcuritie of this Question (and of any other obſcure Queſtion pertaining to faith it is the ſame) eandem Eccleſiam de illa conſulat, let him require, in it, the iudgment of the ſame Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonſtrate.

There is yet a further Anſwer in the word Alijs. You know that actions donne with ones owne hād, by the motion of his owne ſpirit, a man reputes not aliene: but his owne. So doth our B. Sauiour eſteeme the actions of his myſticall bodie, donne by the motion of his Spirit. Settle it in your hearts not to meditate before, what you shall anſwer; for I will giue you a mouth and wiſedome, which • ll your aduerſaries shall not be able to gaineſay nor reſiſt. Luc. 21. It shall • e giuen to you in that ſame hower what • ou shall ſpeake: for it it not you that • peak, Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis, docebit vos omnem veritatem. Non enim loquetur a ſemetipſo: ſed quaecunque audiet loquetur, &c. de meo accipiet, & annū ciabit vobis. Ioan. 16. Mea doctrina • ō • ſt mea, ſed eius qui miſit me. Ioan. 6 T • es ſunt qui teſtimonium dant in caelo &c. & hi tres vnū ſunt 1. Ioan. 5. but the Spirit of your Father that • eaketh in you. Matt. 10. My words • hat I haue put in thy mouth, shall not • epart out of thy mouth, and out of the • outh of thy ſeed, &c. ſaith our Lord, • om hence foorth and foreuer. Eſaie • 9. He that heareth you, heareth me. • uke 10. Since you ſeek a proofe of • hriſt ſpeaking in me. 2. Cor. 12. The • pirit of our Lord hath ſpoken by me, • nd his words, by my tongue. 2. Kings • .

Againe. The decrees which wee • eak of, haue the teſtimonie of the • olie Ghoſt; and the Scriptures • ue the teſtimonie of the Holie • hoſt. Now, the Holie Ghoſt giuing teſtimonie to both theſe, i • not thereby in himſelf deuided into two: He is ſtill the ſame teſtis.

Saint Gregorie our Apoſtle, reuerenced the four firſt generall Coū cels,li. 1. Regeſt. ep. 24. vt quatuor Euangelia, as he did the four Goſpels. Saint Auguſtine whoſe authoritie is heere obiected when he ſpeakes of the ſentence againſt the Donatiſts,li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. ſaies Deus plenario Concilio reuelauit. The Church Waldenſis aboue told you, make no doubt but that the Holie Ghoſt aſſiſts her,li. 2. Doct. fid. c. 27. in her ſincere oecumenicall aſſemblies: He is preſent to them, and defines in them. So d • the Apoſtles beleeue too,Act. 15. attributing their decree to the Holie Ghoſ • whoſe aſſiſtance wasSuggeret vobis omnia. Ioh. 14. In vobis erit. Ibidē. Docebit vos omnem veritatem. c. 16. promiſed It hath ſeemed good to the Holie Ghoſ • and to vs. This for Councels. No • for Scripture.

Well ſpake the Holie Ghoſt by Eſa • the Prophet vnto our Fathers. A • vlt. God who at ſundrie times and 〈◊〉 diuers manners, ſpake in times paſ • vnto the Fathers by the Prophets. He • 1. He ſpake by the mouth of his ho • Prophets which haue beene ſince 〈◊〉 world began. Luc. 1. Holie men of God ſpake as they were moued by the Holie Ghoſt. 2. Pet. 1.

In a word. There are diuiſions of graces, but one Spirit: and there are diuiſions of operations, but one Lord: and there are diuiſions of miniſtrations, but one God; who worketh all in all. And the manifeſtation of the Spirit is giuen to euerie one, to profit. To one &c. Vide Diſput. li. 3 vbi agitur de Spiritus Sancti aſſiſtentia. And all theſe things worketh one and the ſame Spirit, diuiding to euerie one according as it will. 1. Cor. 12.

I forbeare to note that Saint Auguſtine ſpeakes in the place obiected of a pointCùm enim petiuiſſes vt de inuiſibili Deo, vtrum peroculos corporeos poſſit videri, prolixè aliquid copioſeque ad te ſcriberem, negare non potui. S. Aug. Epiſt. 112. Quod non ſic oſtendero, vt aut corporis, aut animi ſenſu, viſum perceptumque teneatur, & tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falſum eſſe neceſſe ſit ſed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur, reſtat vt tantum modo credatur vel non credatur. Sed ſi dininarum Scripturarum, earum ſc. quae canonicae in Eccleſia nominantur, perſpicua (quod dixero) firmatur authoritate, ſine vlla dubitatione credendum eſt. Alijs verò teſtibus &c. vt ſuprà. Ibidem. Dico itaque quod viſuri ſint Deum in ipſo corpore; ſed vtrum per ipſum, ſicut per corpus nunc videmus ſolem, lunam, ſtellas, mare, ac terram, & quae ſunt in ea, non parua quaeſtio eſt. S. Aug. li 22. de Ciuit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philoſophorum qua diſputant ita mentis aſpectu intelligibilia videri, & ſenſu corporis ſenſibilia id eſt corporalia, vt nec intelligibilia per corpus, nec corporalia per ſcipſa mens valeat intueri, ſi poſſet nobis eſſe certiſsima, profectò certum eſſet per oculos corporis etiam ſpiritalis nullo modo poſſe videri Deum. Sed iſtam ratiocinationem & vera ratio & prophetica irridet authoritas. Ibidem. Tametſi nec Scripturae, nec Conciliorū, nec Patrū teſtimonijs expreſsè definitū ſit, nō poſſe Deum oculo corporeo videri, id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali &c. Vaſquez 1. p. disp. 40 c. 2. not determined by the Church: whence ariſeth a third Anſwer. And he that can but English hisInspiciatur codex manuſcriptus. words, will himſelf eſpie a fourth; and a fift.

Quaſi Epiſcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata. Baro. p. 336 ex Aug.3. The third exception is, that Councells according to S. Auguſtine, be not equall to the Scripture. But I ſee not how any thing can be drawne hence againſt their infallibilitie in decrees. Wee doe not equall the Apoſtles or the Prophets to our Sauiour Ieſus Christ; nor the written word, with the eternall and increated word; yet, the Prophets and the Apostles, and the Scripture or written word, are infallible. Moreouer; the Canonicall Scriptures are infallible in all what euer they auouch, of what argument or matter ſoeuer it be, which latitude of infallibilitie wee finde not in the acts of Generall Councels; nor in any other booke or writing, as you were told before; and, though I doe not, your ſelfe will, repeate againe out of S. Auguſtine, quis S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt. contr. Donat. c. 3. neſciat Sanctam Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui teſtamenti certis ſuis terminis contineri, eamque omnibus poſteriorum Epiſcoporum literis ita praeponi, vt de illa omninò dubitari & diſceptari non poſſit vtrum verum vel rectum ſit quicquid in ea ſcriptum eſſe cōſtiterit? That quicquid, doth import an amplitude of infallibilitie, which Councells haue not; and therefore they are not equall vnto Scripture. The Donatiſts excepted againſt a Councell, becauſe it had in it regiſtred the daie and the Conſuls. Etiam hinc geſtis ipſis Cirtēſibus calumniabantur quia ibi dies & Cō ſules legebantur; & exigebāt à nobis vt aliqua Eccleſiaſtica Concilia proferremus, vbi dies recitarentur & conſules, &c. etiam hoc exigebant vt de Scripturis ſanctis oſtenderemus alicubi dies & Conſules eſſe conſcriptos: quaſi Epiſcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint cōparata, aut poſſunt etiam ipſi de Scripturis ſanctis proferre Cōcilium vbi Apoſtoli iudices ſederint & accuſatum aliquem damnauerint vel abſoluerint. Et tamen reſpondebimus eis etiam Prophetas libros praenotatis & definitis commendaſſe temporibus, quo anno, cuius regis, &c. S. Aug. li. cont. Donatiſt. post Collat. c. 15. Requiring of the Catholikes to shewe any where out of Scripture, where the daies and conſuls were regiſtred and enrolled. Wherevnto S. Auguſtine anſwers, that Councells are not parallelled with Scripture; the one (to wit, the Councell) may doe well, in regiſtring both daies and Conſuls, though the other doe not ſo; or, they may be added, and not by the authoritie of the Councell; though nothing be regiſtred in the Scripture, but by the direction of the holie Ghoſt. The acts of Councells are not equalized in exactnes, and extent of infallibilitie, to the books written by Gods Secretaries; wee giue the prerogatiue to the Scriptures, and ſo do the words obiected out of S. Augustine; which are cited in the margine.

In the ſame place whence they were taken he tels how the Catholikes, did forbeare to examine, why in one Councell the daie was noted, and in the other not, quia illi (Donatiſtae) vanas moras volebant innectere; and all heretikes are of the ſame condition, they hinder with impertinent Cauills the proceſſe of the Catholikes argumēts, and catch at all occaſions to trifle out the time. For the ſame cauſe, diſputing in another place with an Arian, he did forbeare to vrge againſt him the authoritie of the Councell of Nice, againſt which the heretick tooke exceptions, oppoſing the Ariminian Councell. The examen of which two points, thereby called into controuerſie; I meane, the lawfulnes of the one, and the vnlawfullnes of the other; would haue taken vp the time, and transferd the diſpute into another queſtion; which heretikes greedilie deſire when they cannot anſwer. but S. Auguſtine would not permit that ſcope to his aduerſarie: and therefore, hauing mentioned the two foreſaid Councells, and in honour of the one which had defined the thing he was diſputing of, ſaid, itS. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14. was there veritatis authoritate & authoritatis veritate firmatum, eſtablished by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie; and contrariwiſe, of the other; that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti, many deceaued by the fraude or circumuention of a fewe, whereby hereticall impietie endeuoured to weaken what the Catholike fathers in the power of truth and authoritie had eſtablished;Sed nunc nec ego Nicenū, nec tu debes Ariminenſe, tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium; nec ego huius authoritate, nec tu illius detineris. Scripturarum authoritatibus, nō quorumque proprijs, ſed vtriſque communibus teſtibus &c Baro p. 337. ex Aug. hauing I ſaie mentioned theſe two Councells, he forbeares to vrge his argument out of the authoritie of the Nicene Councell, and makes it out of that authoritie which his aduerſarie did admit; thereby the ſooner to conclude, being ſo to diſpute onlie about the meaning of the words he was to bring, and needing not to argue for his authoritie whoſe words they were. But now (for both of vs be content with this courſe) neither doe I, the Nicene, neither oughteſt thou as by way of preiudice, produce, the Ariminian Councell: neither am I held in with the authoritie of this (the Ariminian,) nor thou, of that, (the Nicene.) thou doeſt aſſume to thy ſelfe, the libertie not to obaie it, and outInfrà, in fi. huius relectionis ad ſextum. of thy malice art not held in, with that great authoritie, though thou, and all others, ought to be; ſinceHoc eſt illud homouſion quod in Concilio Nicaeno aduerſus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis Patribus Veritatis authoritate & authoritatis veritate firmatum eſt: quod poſtea in Concilio Ariminenſi propter nouitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum, quam tamen fides antiqua pepera • , multis paucorum fraude deceptis, haeretica impietas ſub haeretico Imperatore Conſtantio labefactare tentauit. Sed poſt non longum tempus libertate Catholicae fidei praeualente &c. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim. c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego &c. (vt ſupra in marg.) Ibidem. the authoritie of truth it ſelfe, which cannot lie, doth there eſtablish the thing which wee diſpute of. See what S. Athanaſius hath teſtified of the authoritie of that Councell to conuince Heretiks. Efficax ad omnem impietatem euertendam &c. infrà in Addition: ad Athan.

PEtit Auguſtinus à Donatiſtis vt Eccleſiam ſuam demonſtrent Non in ſermonibus & rumoribus Afrorum, non in Concilijs Epiſcoporum ſuorum, non in literis quorumlibet diſputatorum, non in ſignis & prodigijs falla • ibus &c. ſed in praeſcripto legis, in Prophetarum praedictis, in Euangeliſtarum praedicationibus. Baro. p. 337. & in eandem ſententiam plura p. 338.

4. THe fourth exception out of S. Auguſtine is, that diſputing with the Donatiſts he vrged them to shewe by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholike or vniuerſall, was the true Church; and would not haue the matter tryed by their Councells. I anſwer that though the Church once knowne, and her authoritie admitted, that will ſerue to determine controuerſies, as you heard S. Augustine ſaie before; yet, when the Queſtion is of the Church it ſelfe, Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Sauiour confined to one Nation, or extended ouer all, and, with an Aduerſarie who doth admit Scripture; the way to demonſtrate againſt him (vt ex tuis conceſſionibus &c. S. Aug. li. con. Creſc. c. 33.) the way I ſaie, to demonſtrate againſt him, is, to looke vpon the Prophecies and ſee the deſcription of it there; and, to harken withall what our Sauiour in the Goſpell hath deliuered, of it. The Donatiſts, with whom S. Auguſtine deales, admitted the canonicall bookes wherein theſe two things are; and they being once admitted, the Queſtion might be defined out of them. And, of the teſtimonies of the Lawe and Prophets and Pſalmes; and, of our bleſſed Sauiour himſelfe; in this controuerſie of the Church, S. Auguſtine ſaid vnto the DonatiſtsS. Aug. de vnit. Eccleſ. cap. 16. haec ſunt ca • ſae noſtrae documenta, haec fundamenta, haec firmamenta; the cauſe he ſpeakes of, was, Whether the Donatiſts i • Africk, or the Catholikes in all Nations, were the Church; whether 〈◊〉 were a thing confined vnto the limits of that contrey or extended ouer all the world, according to Gods intention? and, the teſtimonies of our Sauiour, and of the Law, and of the Prophets and Pſalmes, theſe teſtimonies he ſaith, were documents and foundations and eſtablishments of this cauſe. He was not to proue it out of Councells; for he that denies the whole, doth withall reiect the authoritie of each part, or what euer is within the whole; they who condemned and oppoſed the whole Catholike Church did withall ſleight the authoritie of her Councells, as Pagans alſo doe; but he was to proue it by a principle, which they reiected not.

Neither doth it followe that Councells therefore in themſelues are not worthie of beleefe, or infallible in their aſſertion; or, that S. Auguſtine did not eſteeme them ſo when to conuince the Donatiſts he tooke his argumēts frō the Prophets to confirme or proue the foreſaid point. S. Peter heard a voice from2. Petr. 1. heauen teſtifying of our Sauiour, yet he confirmes it the ſame way, firmiorem babemus Propheticum ſermonem, wee haue the prophets words which yet confirme vs more: and our B. Sauiour, though moſt worthie of credit, as being the truth it ſelfe, confirmed his reſurrection, and other myſteries, to the Diſciples, by the ſameIpſe Dominus Ieſus cū reſurrexiſſet à mortuis, & diſcipulorū oculis videndum, manibuſ que tangēdum corpus ſuum offerret, ne quid tamen fallaciae ſe pati arbitrarentur, magic eos teſtimonijs legis & propheratarū & pſalmorū confirmandos eſſe iudicauit, oſtendens ea de ſe impleta quae fuerant tanto antè praedicta. S. Augu. de vnit. Eccleſ. c. 16. meanes. One teſtimonie, as I ſaid before vpon the like occaſion, doth illuſtrate another; and many ioyned together, doe more eaſilie maſter our vnderſtanding, and make it yeeld obedience to the truth.

For the better comprehenſion of S. Auguſtines minde in this matter, I will adde a word or two more touching this waie of diſcouering a truth in Religion; ſuppoſe it be, whether Ieſus be the Meſsias and Redeemer of the world? or, whether this or that congregation, be the Church of the Meſsias? For the notice of the former of theſe two, reade the Prophets, where you shall finde that a Meſſias shall come, that he shall be borne in Bethlem, preach, doe miracles; be reſiſted and reiected by the Iewes, who were keepers of theſe bookes of Propheſies; be perſecuted, ſcourged, put to death, pierced; and after death riſe againe; and be acknowledged and adored by the Gentiles. This you reade there; and it is a good direction; but this is not all. You muſt finde out the man, to whom this deſcription doth agree; and, in the compariſon of them both together, the man Ieſus with the circumſtances of his birth, life, and death, to the propheticall deſcription; and the Propheſie to the man, in this compariſon I ſay you knowe that which you looke for, vizt. that, Ieſus is the Meſsias and redeemer of the world, when you would get knowledge of the later, viz. which companie is the Church, you firſt take notice of a companie of people, profeſſing one faith, in all Nations, beginning at Hieruſalem: defending it, by her PaſtorsVt omittam ſapientiā (ſynceriſsimā) quā in Eccleſia eſſe Catholica non creditis, multa ſunt alia quae in eius gremio me iuſtiſſimè teneant. Tenet conſenſio populorum at que gentium; tenes authoritas, miraculis inchonta, ſpe nutrita, charitate aucta, vetuſtate firmata: tenet ab ipſa ſede Petri Apoſtoli, cui paſcendas oues ſuas poſt reſurrectionē Dominus cō mendauit, vſque ad praeſentem epiſcopatum ſucceſsio ſacerdotum: tenet poſtremò ipſum Catholicae nomē &c. S. August. cont. Epist. Fundamenti c. 4. Ego verò Euangelio non crederem niſi me Catholicae Eccleſiae commoueret authoritas. Ibid. c. 5. Cum igitur tantum auxilium Dei, tantum profectū fructum que videamus, dubitabimus nos eius Eccleſiae cōderegremio, quae vſque ad confeſſionem generis humani, ab apoſtolica ſede per ſucceſſiones epiſcoporū, fruſtra haereticis circumlatrantibus, & partim plebis ipſius iudicio, partim conciliorum grauitate, partim etiam miraculorum maieſtate damnatis, culmen authoritatis obtinuit? cui nolle primas dare vel ſummae profecto impietatis eſt, vel praecipitis arrogantiae. S. Aug. de vtil credendi c. 17. in Councells, and otherwiſe; offering to God, euerie where Sacrifice or oblation, leading an innocent life in exteriour profeſſion; and, confirming, with miracles, her beleefe and doctrine; but this alone, ſo abſtracted from the increate authoritie, doth not breed an act of diuine beleefe that this companie is the Church of God; wherefore you goe further, and in the Prophets, and other parts of the Bible, reade a deſcription of the Church, diffuſed ouer all the world beginning at Hieruſalem, with power to meet in Councell, and aſſiſtance of the Spirit; offering to God, in all Nations, a cleane oblation • diſpoſed Hierarchicallie, with her watchmen euer on her walles; he • Paſtors readie to maintaine the truth, and attending carefullie to the flock that by Errour they be not circumuented: and then, comparing one of theſe vnto the other, vizt. the companie to the propheſie, the prophecie to the companie; in the compariſon you finde, and beleeue, (with an act of diuine faith) the true Church. It is this, as I conceaue which S. Auguſtine points at, in the place before cited, when he ſaith our Sauiour confirmed the faith o • his reſurrection by teſtimonies o • the Prophets,S. Aug. de vnit. Eccleſ. c. 16 oſtendens ea de ſ • impleta, que fuerant tanto ante praedicta, shewing thoſe things to be fulfilled of him, which ſo longe before were for • told. And to this end he shewed hi • hands, and ſide, when he did appeare after his reſurrection. Which brought his diſciples in minde of, foderunt manus meas & pedes meos; aſpicient ad me quem confixerunt, they haue digged my hands and my feete; they shall looke vpon me whom they haue pierced; and the reſt mouing them to faith; and S. Thomas putting his hand in to the wound, in his Maſter found God.

How to finde the Church in this manner, you haue beene touldDiſp. li. 2. els-where. Looking all about, on the world, and into monuments of antiquitie, you ſee a great companie of people, reaching from the Apoſtles time, and ſtretched out into all Nations, communicating with the See Apoſtolike in the profeſſion of one and the ſame Religion, and holding out a booke to all that will reade it. You reade; and obſerue. And conſidering the companie, you percaue the booke is a propheſie; for, being written long before the companie was extant, it doth deſcribe it perfectlie; and foretels the comming of it; with diuers particulars that come not of neceſſitie but of election and free choiſe: conſidering the booke, you perceaue the companie to be the Church; for, there you finde it ſo deliuered and affirmed by him that made the booke,Diſp p. 177. who foreſeeing things future, (many ages before they came to paſſe) certainly foretold of it; and is worthilie belieued, as hauing ſuch an infinite foreſight and certaine comprehenſion of all kind of things future.

ET ipſa concilia quae per ſingulas regiones vel prouincide fiunt plenariorum conciliorum authoritati, quae fiunt ex vniuerſo orbe Chriſtiano, fine vllis ambagibus cedere; ipſaque plenaria ſaepe priora poſterioribus emendari, cùm aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clauſum erat, & cogno cit • r quod latebat. Baro. p. 339. ex Aug.

5. IN the fift place are obiected out of S. Auguſtine thoſe words, Prouinciall Councells without all tergiuerſation giue place to the authoritie of generall Councells aſſembled out of all the Chriſtian world, and many times the precedent plenarie or generall Councells are mended by the following (plenarie Councels) when by ſome experiment of things, that is opened which was shut, and that knowne which was vnknowne. For the vnderſtanding of which words, it is to be noted, firſt, that S. Auguſtine is there diſputing with the Donatiſts, who amongſt other things had obiected againſt the Catholikes, for their errour, Saint Cyprians au • horitie, and his writings or Epiſtles; and a Councell which he made, whe • ein their tenet of rebaptization was • ffirmed. To which three points he • here anſwers: firſt, if the example • r authoritie of S. Cyprian were of • uch eſteeme with them, they should • ather followe him in embracing • he communion of the Si authoritas Cypriani ſeq • ēda eſt, magis ea ſequenda eſt in vnitate ſeruanda, quam in Eccleſiae conſuetudine commutanda. Si autem Concilium eius attēditur, huic eſt vniuerſae Eccleſiae poſterius Conci •• um praeponendum S. Aug. li. 2. de Bap. c. 9 vide etiam c. 1. eiuſdem li. Church; which he did; and not breake into • hiſme, which was a thing he de • eſted. Secondlie the letters and wri • ngs of S. Cyprian (and it is the • me of other Bishops writings) are • ot to be preſumed ſo entire for • uth, that nothing in themCertè nobis obijcere ſoletis Cypriani literas, Cypriani ſententiam, Cypriani concilium. Cur authoritatem Cypriani pro veſtro ſchiſmate aſſumitis, & eius exemplum pro Eccleſiae pace reſpuitis? Quis autem neſciat Sancta •• Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui teſtamen • ti certis ſuis terminis contineri, eamque omnibus poſteriorum Epiſcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omni • no dubitari non poſs • t vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum f • quicquid in ea ſcriptum eſſe conſtiterit? Epiſcoporum a • tem literas quae poſt confirmatum canonem vel ſcripſunt vel ſcribuntur, & per ſermonem fortè ſapientiore • cuiuſlibet in ea re peritioris, & per aliorum epiſcoporu • grauiorem authoritatem, doctiorumque prudentiam, 〈◊〉 per concilia, licere reprehendi ſi quid in eis fortè a verita • deuiatum eſt. Et ipſa concilia quae per ſingulas regiones & 〈◊〉 (vt ſuprà pag. 128.) S. Aug. li. 2. de Baptiſ. con. Donat • c. 3. may • e reprehended: ſuch integritie of an • piſtle or other writing (vt de illa • ninò dubitari & diſceptari non poſ • vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum 〈◊〉 quicquid inea Scriptum eſſe conſtiterit,) is the prerogatiue of hol • Scripture. Thirdlie prouinciall Synods (ſuch as that of S. Cyprian) yeel • vnto generall Councells, which a • aſſembled out of the whole worl • S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. cap. 9. vniuerſum partibus, ſemper in • optimo praeponitur, the whole is deſo • uedlie preferd before the part. Such 〈◊〉 Councell, hath now determined th • controuerſie; the world ſubſcribe • and S. Cyprian would haue yeeld • too; wherefore you haue no reaſo • to ſtand any longer, vpon his Cou • cell, or his writings; or to pretend 〈◊〉 example and authoritie.

By this S. Augustine hath fullie anſwered the Donatiſts obiection. Yet, hauing by that occaſion, mentioned generall Councells, Our B. Sauiour ſometimes in his anſwers taught more then was demaunded, as Matth. 21 36. Queadmodū in ſuperioribus cū de reſurrectione interrogaretur, plus docuit quā tentantes petebant: ſic in hoc loco de primo interrogatus mandato, ſecundum etiam non valdè quàm primum inferius ſpo • te attulit. S. Chry. Homil. 72. in Matth. of him ſelfe he goes further; and ſaies, that ſome of thoſe, otherwhile, may be • mended alſo;Suprà pag. 128. when by ſome experiment of things that is opened which was shut vp before, and that knowne which was vnknowne. Where, aduiſedlie, (treating of ſo great a matter,) • he hath ballanced his words; and not • eft the ſpeach, abſolute; as he did the other next before, of prouinciall Councells; but limited it, with two qualifications; the one reſtraining it from being extended vnto all; ſaepè; not alwaies this; but, oft: the other contracting it to the caſe or matter, when that which was shut vp, is opened by ſome experiment of things. Which metaphor of opening, he doth expound preſentlie in other words, not adding another caſe, but expreſſing more the ſame which was before deliuered vnder the Metaphor of opening, & cognoſcitur quod latebat, and (by the ſame experiment of things) that is knowne which was before vnknowne.

Secondlie it is to be noted, that S. Auguſtine doth vrge againſt theſe heretikes the definition of a generall Councell, wherein by the conſent, as he ſpeakes, of the whole world, theS. Aug. de Haereſ. n. 69. controuerſie was decided; and the truth eſtablished, ſo, that now the men were heretikes who reſiſted the veritie; though before the definition they were not (for holding what they did in this matter of rebaptization) guiltie of ſo great a crime. In this ſort he doth excuſe S. Cyprian; and accuſe, or charge the Donatiſts. S. Auguſt. de Hareſ. n. 69. They preſume, ſaies he, to rebaptize Catholikes wherein they did further confirme, th • they were heretikes; it hauing ſeeme • good to the vniuerſall Church, not 〈◊〉 reuoake (or as another lection hath it, not to repeate) the common baptiſme, euen in heretikes themſelues. AndS. Aug li. 1. cont. Donat. c. 7. the obſcuritie of this queſtion, (of baptiſme, diſputed with the Donatiſts,) hath in the former times of the Church before the ſchiſme of Donatu • compelled great men and thoſe endowe • with great charitie, Fathers, Bishop • ſo to contend amongſt themſelues, without breach of peace, and ſo to wauer, that the different decrees of Councels in their ſeuerall Countries did longe time shake, vntill that which was moſt wholeſomely iudged, was, (remotis dubitationibus,) all doubts remoued, eſtablished by a plenarie or generall Councell of the whole world. Againe,Ibidem cap. 18. before the conſent of the whole world had eſtablished by the decree of a generall Councell what was to be embraced of all in this matter, S. Cyprian with almoſt fourſcore of his fellowe-Bishops of the Churches of Africk, thought that euerie one who was baptized out of the communion of the Catholike Church, was, when he came to the Church, to be baptized or chriſtned againe. And againe, S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. c. 9. Conſuetudinis robore tenebatur orbis terrarum, & haec ſola opponebatur, &c. Ibidem. as yet there had been no generall Councell aſſembled in that behalfe, but the world was held in by the strength of cuſtome, and this cuſtome onlie was oppoſed to thoſe which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie (of rebaptization) becauſe they could not apprehend the truth; yet afterwards, whilst amongſt many on both ſides it is ſpoken of, and ſought, it is not only ſound out, but alſo brought to the authoritie and ſtrength of a generall Councell, after Cyprians paſsion indeed, but afore wee were borne. And a litle after the words obiected. c. 4. Neither durſt wee affirme any ſuch thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the moſt conſenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuerſall Church, vnto which vndoubtedlie he (S. Cyprian) would haue yeelded if as then, the truth of this queſtion, being cleered and declared, had been eſtablished by a generall Councell. Hence it followes, firſt that he did acknowledge in generall Councells, authoritie to determine controuerſies; and this controuerſie particularlie of rebaptization, (which youError de rebaptizatione hereticorum, qui certè fundamentalis • o fu •• , no • dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus &c. Baro p. 348. confeſſe was not in a matter fundamentall;) and that, therein the truth was eſtablished by authoritie, (not of ſcripture, this matter was not ſo reſolued; but) of the world, in a Councell; and ſo farre eſtablished, that all, were to beleeue it, and, remotis dubitationibus, without as much as doubting of it. Whence it comes ſecondlie, that to reſiſt ſuch a decree it is diabolicall, which word he doth vſe vppon another occaſion, and that ſuch as maintaine the contrarie, are indeed, heretikes.

Thirdlie it is to be repeated (which hath been ſaid oft before) that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of ſincere and approued generall Councells, in their decrees of faith, yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or ſpeake, and in all kinde of matter; as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture; and conſequentlie, there may be ſomething in ſuch a Councell, ſometime, that may need mending. Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue, that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall, haue infallibilitie in their decrees; ſome haue, as thoſe which are approued; ſome haue not, and theſe later may need mending, euen in the decree they make touching faith. Moreouer, though the Councell that is plenarie and approued, cannot commaund a vice, or condemne vertue by decree, yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient, or forbid what after may be admitted when circumſtances are changed. And, if a lawe which at firſt was well made, (the circumſtances of time and perſons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed,) become inconuenient, (and conſequentlie not good in theſe circumſtances, though good in it ſelfe, and in other circumſtances, ſuch as thoſe were wherein it was firſt made,) it may be changed, by power equall to that which made it. The Apoſtles, by decree, did forbid the eating of ſuffocata, things ſtrangled; yet afterwards, when the circumſtances were charged and feare of ſcandall quite remoued, the Church began to doe the contrarie. To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe, now, it were a Sinne, peccaret mortaliterſi quis nunc ceremonias obſcruaret. S. Tho. 1.2. q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie (for the time) they were commaunded. If you be ſick, phyſick is good; if you be well, the ſame is bad for you. The ſame thing, may be conuenient, and inconuenient, good and bad, in diuers circumſtances. When the common-wealth is diſtempered, a lawe may be neceſſarie; and at other times, not vſefull, yea inconuenient; and therefore to be annulled. And the common-wealth in anulling of it, mends her Statute-booke, reſpectiuelie to theſe later circumſtances; though when she made it firſt she did not commit a fault.

Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Auguſtine before deliuered, there be ſome kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended, nor to be doubted of; that it is hereticall to oppoſe them; and conſequentlie, that they haue nor exteriour onlie, but interiour obedience alſo (remotis dubitationibus) due, to ſuch, their decrees: which being manifeſt in him, you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected, vnto all: which were to make him contradict, both the truth, and the Church of his time, and himſelfe. He ſaith, and wee too, that ſome generall Councells may be mended, when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp, and knowne which before was vnknowne; but ſome generall Councells cannot be mended; no, nor queſtioned or doubted of, in their decrees touching faith. Now to your obiections in particular.

Firſt you ſaie that he ſpeakes of mending in matter of faith; I anſwer that thoſe words, in matter of faith, be your addition. He ſpeakes indeed, of mending in ſuch matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne, but, diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith, be not of this nature. Neither if there had been expreſſed in that clauſe, (which is of generall Councels,) matters of faith, were you able to conclude any thing againſt vs, for wee graunt that ſome which beare the name, may be mended in that, alſo. Of all wee cannot graunt it, without contradicting S. Auguſtine, and making him withall to contradict himſelfe.

Secondlie you ſaie that his ſcope or intention was to diſtinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie, wherefore ſince no generall Councell whatſoeuer, is Scripture, he meanes them all; and will haue all ſubiect vnto mending. I anſwer, that he intended to ſatisfie three things obiected. 1. S. Cyprians ſentence or example. 2. S. Cyprians writings. 3. S. Cyprians Councell. The compariſon of Scripture, is with writings; and it is a part of his anſwer to the Second point; as I haue related it. And it is true, that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings, vide ſuprà, pag. 130. & pag. 106. marg. that nothing at all can be queſtioned, which it affirmes. To S. Cyprians Epiſtles, or any other mans, wee owe not that ſeruice or honour. Of Councels he ſpeakes afterwards, in the third place; and you knowe that, it is not eſſentiall to their decrees, to be written. There is alſo great difference, betwixt Councells and the Scripture, in infallibilitie, (as hath been showne many times;) although the decrees in faith, (of ſuch as are approued) are infallible. But if you will haue him aime at this, that all generall Councels whatſoeuer, may be mended, and in their decrees of faith, you make him, as before was obſerued, to contradict himſelfe. For, theſe are contradictorie; ſome may not, as that of Nice; and, all may. Moreouer by that ſaepè, it is manifeſt that his ſpeach is not generall, as you would haue it; ſaepè, is short of Semper. And the qualification which he doth vſe, is another argument of the ſame.

Thirdlie you ſaie that vnles S. Auguſtine ſpeake in the words principallie obiected, of amendment in matter of faith, he leaues vnanſwered, the Donatiſts obiection. But neither will this make any thing to your purpoſe; for, before he comes to ſpeake of amending plenarie Councells, he hath fullie ſatisfied the three points of their argument, taken from S. Cyprians example; from his writings, or Epiſtles; and, from his Coūcell: his example should haue moued them rather to adhere vnto the Church; his writings were not canonicall Scripture; they might haue ſomething in them liable to reprehenſion;Suprà in marg. &c. in additionibus. and his Councell; being onlie nationall, was to giue place to a generall. There ſtaies their argument, whollie ſatisfied. The reſt was added for a fuller illuſtration of the matter of Councells, wherevnto that occaſion had led him. They be not all of one nature; ſome kinde of mending or other, they be ſubiect to, ſometimes; though not all vnto the ſame. Wee doe not, of neceſſitie, ſo adhere vnto them all, as if nothing, in any, Saepè priora, à poſterioribus emendantur. But I pray you what amendment had he ſeene in the Decrees of faith, of approued generall Councels? shew me the ſaepè there. Name, out of him, the Coū cells; and the decrees ſo mē ded. might be better then it is. The Ariminian was generall, but he would not maintaine it; the ſecond Epheſine was generall, yet the Councell of Chalcedon did anull it. Yea, ſuppoſe the decrees of faith be all right, and the Councell lawfull and approued, yet ſomething otherwhiles may be mended; as, when by ſome experiment of things that comes to light which before was vnknowne.

Moreouer, in that you ſaie the Donatiſts argument is not anſwered, vnles it be graunted, that any generall Councell whatſoeuer, may be mended in their decree, touching faith; you ſeeme to call their hereſie againe into diſpute: for, that which S. Auguſtine ſo much vrgeth againſt them (and it was the thing indeed which choked that Hereſie,) was the decree of a generall Councell. And it is ſtrange you should imagine that he doth heere in the ſame booke diſauow the ſame decree; as if his anſwer to their weake obiection could not haue place, but by cutting the throate of his owne Argument, which they durſt not looke vpon; and, that his owne forces, of neceſſitie muſt be ruined and oppreſſed, with the fall of their cauſe.

Looke better on his words: and in them you shall finde that he reſolued as wee do. He ſaith touching this Controuerſie with the Donatiſts, that it was taken into conſideration, and theNec nos ipſitale aliquid auderemus aſſerere, niſi vniuerſae Eccleſiae concordiſsima authoritate firmati: cui & ipſe (Cyprianus) ſine dubio cederet, ſi iam illo tēpore quaeſtionis huius veritas eliquata & declarata per pleuarium Concilium ſolidaretur S Aug li. 2. de Bapt. c 3. truth declared, andPoſtea tamen dum inter multos ex vtraque parte tractatur & quaeritur, non ſolum inuenta eſt (veritas,) ſed etiam ad plenarij Concilij authoritatē roburque perducta. c. 9. eſtablished, by thevt ſuprà num. 1. & 2. authoritie (not by plaine Scripture, there was none; but by the authoritie) of theSi autem Concilium eius (Cypriani) attēditur, huic eſt vniuerſae Eccleſiae poſterius Concilium praeponendum. cap. 9. vt ſuprà. Totus Catholicus orbis amplexus eſt. li. 1. c. 18. vniuerſall Church: and this authoritie not in the Laietie, or diffuſed; but inſuprà. plenario totius orbis Concilio c. 7. a Councell, wherein theAntequam plenarij Concilij ſententia quid in hac reſentiendum eſſet totius Eccleſiae conſenſio confirmaſſet. li. 1. c. 18. whole Church did inIbid. a Decree, expreſſe her minde. So that (although before, men perchance mightSalua pace diſceptare atque fluctuare, vt diu conciliorum in ſuis quibuſque regionibus diuerſa ſtatuta nutauerint, donec. li. 1 c. 7. doubt or ſtagger in the matter,) it was now to be beleeued Donec plenario totius orbis concilio, quod ſaluberrimè ſentiebatur, etiam remotis dubitationibus firmaretur. Ibidem. remotis dubitationibus; and nutauerint, donec. Ibid. Cui & ipſe ſine dubio cederet &c vt ſuprà. obedience to be giuen to the decree, (whereofAmmedera dixit, Et hoc ego idem cenſeo Haereticos baptizandos eſſe. Huic reſpondetur; Sed non hoc cenſet Eccleſia, cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concilio reuelauit; quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem ſapiebatis, ſed quia in vobis charitas ſalua erat, in vnitate permanebatis. S. Aug li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. vide diſput. p. 404. God had beene author,) by all who would not expoſe themſelues to beScripturarum etiam in hac re à nobis tenetur veritas, cum hoc facimus quod vniuerſae iam placuit Eccleſiae. li 1. cont. Creſcon. c. 33. quiſquis falli metuit eandem conſulat &c. Ibidem. vt ſuprà. deceaued, and moſt perniciouſlie ſtriue againſtQuòd ſi non vis, non mihi aut cuiquam homini, qui vult ita ſuſcipere, ſed ipſi Saluatori contra ſalutem tuam pernicioſiſsimè reluctatis, qui te ſic ſuſciptendum eſſe non vis credere quemadmodum ſuſcipit illa Eccleſia quam teſtimonio ſuo commendat ille cui fateris nefarium eſſe non credere. De vnit Eccleſ. c 19. our Sauiour himſelf; and confirme or aſſure themſelues to beAudent etiam (Donatiſtae) rebaptizare Catholicos, vbi ſe ampliûs Haereticos eſſe firmarunt, cùm Eccleſiae Catholicae vniuerſae placuerit nec in ipſis Haereticis baptiſma reſcindere. S. Aug. de Haereſ num 69. expende verbum illud (ampliùs) quod indicat gradum, in eodem genere. Hereticks. This, I trow, doth import as much as wee teach of a Councells authoritie. And the grounds whereby S. Augustine could haue defended himſelf, at that time and in that caſe, be the ſame whereby wee now defend our ſelues in other cauſes of no leſſe importance; as, of the reall preſence, propitiatorie Sacrifice, prayer for the dead; and the like: the diuine aſsistance being not tied peculiarlie vnto that Age wherein S. Auguſtine liued.

Fourthlie you ſaie, thoſe words & cognoſcitur quod latebat, and that it knowne which was before vnknowne; be meant in matter of faith, becauſe matters of faith doe come to light after they haue been vnknowne. As if this were a peculiar thing in matters of faith, and not common to diuers other matters, euen thoſe which by experiment may be knowne, to come to light after inquiſition. there are many other verities which may ſo come to light, beſides matters of faith, and therefore vnleſſe you will argue from the genus to the ſpecies, affirmatiuelie, as thus; it is aliuing creature, therefore it is a man; which manner of diſcourſe is abſurd, you cannot out of thoſe generall words, make it good or proue, that he meanes matter of faith; not, if this part were diſioyned frō the former with a vel; for, there were yet other things which might ſo come to light beſides matters of faith; all other verities are not manifeſted by triall and experiment, though ſome be: much leſſe can you doe it • f you conſider that the later part and the former be coupled into the ſame ſence, by the coniunctiue &. 〈◊〉 anſwer ſecondlie that, were mat • ers of faith expreſſed in that part, 〈◊〉 for of that part onlie which con • ernes plenarie Councells I ſpeake,) • s it is manifeſt they be not; ſtill • ou were short of your aime; for, ſome kinde of generall Councells, ſuch as are vnlawfull, or ſuch as are lawfull but not approued, (though you would neuer be able to proue ſo much out of this place) might neede mending; and yet, approued and confirmed Councels need none.

I knowe that ſome of yours doe ſleight the diſtinction of confirmed and not confirmed Councels, as a thing not knowne to S. Augustine and other Auncients; but they be miſtaken much. If you looke into the tome of his Epiſtles you will ſee thatS. Aug. Ep. 90. he, with many other Bishops, in a Councell, wrote vnto Pope Innocentius, to confirme their acts and decree made againſt thoſe errours which Pelagius and Caeleſti •• had auouched; vt ſtatutis noſtrae mediocritatis etiam Apoſtolicae ſedis adhibeatur authoritas; that to the decree • of our mediocritie, the authoritie of the See Apoſtolike be added. And afterwards, error & impietas quae tam multos aſſertores habet & per diuerſa diſperſos, etiā Apoſtolicae ſedis authoritate anathematizanda eſt. The errour and impietie (of thoſe men) which hath ſo many abbetters, and thoſe diſperſe • in diuers parts or places, is to be anathematized alſo by the authoritie of the See Apoſtolike. Wherevnto the Pope anſwers, (and his Epiſtle is thereApud S Aug. Epiſt. 91. alſo) firſt, commending them for requiring, as they ought to doe, the iudgment of the See Apoſtolike, ſcientes quid Apoſtolicae ſedi debeatur; Secondlie, confirming this obligation, the Fathers ſaith he non humana ſed diuina decreuere ſententia vt quicquid de diſiunctis remotiſque prouincijs ageretur, non prius ducerent finiendum niſi ad huius ſedis notitiam perueniret, vbi tot a huius authoritate iuſta que fuerit pronunciatio, firmaretur; the fathers haue decreed by a ſentence not humane but diuine, (marke the words) that whatſoeuer should be donne in diſ • oyned and remote prouinces, they should not eſteeme it to be ended, vnles it come firſt to the notice of this See, where the propoſition or ſentence which is iuſt should be eſtablished with the whole authoritie of this. Thirdlie, he declates, quiſquis huic aſſentiens videtur eſſe ſententiae (ſpeaking of the the Pelagian errour) nimium ſe Catholicae fidei, & Dei beneficijs profitetur ingratum, who ſoeuer ſeemes to conſent into this opinion, doth profeſſe himſelfe an enemie to the Catholike faith, and ingratefull to gods benefits. And in fine, he cuts the faction of, from communion, ſeparetur ergo &c.

Neither doth S. Auguſtine omit to giue notice of this anſwer, for in the 106. Epiſtle, hauing ſignified the ſending of the acts of the foreſaid Councell, and of another alſo, againſt the ſame errours; together with letters to the ſame purpoſe, to Pope Innocentius; he ſaith,S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item ſerm. 2. de verbis Apoſtoli & li. 2. cont. duas Epiſt. Pelag. c. 3. ad omnia nobis ille reſcripſit, eodem modo quo fas erat, atque oportebat, Apostolicae ſedis antiſtitem. He wrote vs an anſwer to all things in ſuch manner as a Bishop of the ſee Apoſtolike lawfullie might before god, and ought to doe. Adding alſo els-where, that by thoſe letters, dubitatio tota ſublata eſt, al • doubt in that matter was taken away. I omit to put you further in minde that the Councell ofRelat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem Papam. Chalcedon asked of Leo the great, as their Head and Father, confirmation of their decrees; which he alſo gaue, thoughLeo Papa Epiſt. 55. ad Pulch. Aug. not in all they deſired, and thereby did manifeſt the fullnes of his authoritie. It were eaſie to bring many examples in this kind, were I profeſſedlie to treat of it, but keeping my ſelf (as I haue donne hetherto) to thoſe authors you obiect, it ſufficeth to ſatisfie by S. Auguſtines authoritie the difficulties which you bring out of S. Auguſtine. The neceſſitie of the Popes approbation you finde elſwhere,Diſput. li. 4. c. 4. and it is a thing ſo manifeſt by the Scripture (Matth. 16. & Ioan. 21.) that he, in his Predeceſſor S. Peeter, is peculiarlie deſigned as Chiefe of thoſe Pastors on whom the Church is to relie for the knowledg and meaning of Gods word, according to the Apoſtles doctrine, Epheſ. 4.Epheſ. 2.20. Epiſt. Iudae. v. 20 (which Paſtors are therefore aſſiſted accordinglie, to ſupport the faithfull built vppon them,) that all other interpretation which would exclude it, is violent vnto the text; and,Diſput. li. 4. c. 1. & 2. inaſmuch as it labours to remoue the foundation which our Sauiour laide, doth indeuour (though vainelie, for it is more then Hell can do,) to ruine the whole Church.

The pretence of plaine Scripture, or of manifeſt reaſon (ſuch as an vnderſtanding man conſidering, cannot but aſſent vnto,) againſt the conſent of all the Paſtors in a Councell, is openly inſufficient, becauſe it doth ſuppoſe (and without, yea againſt all reaſon) that they, (the Paſtors) with all their Exerciſe in Diuinitie and diligent inquiſition, looking into and conſidering the words of Scripture, comparing texts together, examining the traditions of the Church, peruſing former Councels, with the writings of the Fathers, and other monuments of antiquitie; and aſſiſted by the Holie Ghoſt their interiour Maſter; be not as able (as their aduerſaries) to conceaue plaine Scripture,Innumerabiles ſunt qui ſe videntes non ſolùm • actāt, ſed à Chriſto illuminatos videri volunt. ſunt autem Haeretici. S. Augu. in Ioan. tract. 45. and reaſon ſo manifeſt: or, that conceauing and vnderſtanding it, they should be, all, ſo malicious, (and our Sauiour ſo vnmindfull of his promiſe) as to propoſe vnto the world and oblige it to beleeue as our Sauiours words, the contrarie. But it is familiar in ſuch Opponents as want them ſelues that Authoritie which the Sonne of God hath eſtablished to keepe vs from Errour, to pretend euident Scripture and manifeſtIlli, qui cum in vnitate atque communione catholica nō ſint Chriſtiano tamen nomine gloriantur, coguntur aduerſari credentibus, & audent imperitos quaſi ratione traducere, quando maximé cum iſta medicina Dominus venerit vt fidem populis imperaret. Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere ſe abiectiſsimè ſentiunt ſi eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica conferatur. Conantur ergo authoritatem ſtabiliſſimam fundatiſsimae Eccleſiae quaſi rationis nomine & pollicitatione ſuperare. Omnium enim Haereticorum quaſi regularis eſt iſta temeritas. Sed ille fidei imperator clementiſsimus, & per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium, ſedeſque ipſas Apoſtolorum, arce authoritatis muniuit Eccleſiam, & per pauciores piè doctos & verè ſpirituales viros copioſiſsimis apparatibus etiam inuictiſsimae rationis armauit. S. Aug. Epiſt. ad Dioſc. 56. reaſon againſt the Church, to the end they may ſeeme to bring ſomething greater for to oppreſſe or ouercome her authoritie, as S. Auguſtine well obſerued long agoe. And by the like ſtratagem did the pagās heeretefore ſtriue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede, by shewing the contrarie ſo cleerelie that no doubt, as they pretended, could be made of it; which was a way they thought, to getIn Catholica me tenet conſenſio populorum atque gentium &c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum eſt quod me inuitet ac teneat, ſola perſonat veritatis pollicitatio, quae quidem ſi tam manifeſta monſtratur vt in dubium venire non poſſit, praeponenda eſt omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor. Si autem tantummodo promittitur & non exhibetur, nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot & tantis nexibus Chriſtianae religionis aſtringit. S. Aug. contra Epiſt. Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promitteba • ſcientiam veritatis, & nunc quod neſcio cogis vt credam. c. 5. Multò iuſtiùs & cautiùs facio ſi catholicis quoniam ſemel credidi, ad te non tranſeo, niſi me, non credere iuſteris, ſed manifestiſsimè ac apertiſſimè ſcire aliquid feceris. Quocirca ſi mihi rationem redditùrus es, dimitte Euangelium. Si ad Euangelium me tenes, ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi, & his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam. Quod ſi fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertiſsimum de Manichaei apoſtolatu inuenire potueris, infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam. Qua infirmata, iam nec Euangelio credere potero &c. Sed abſit vt ego Euangelio non credam. Ibidem. ſchollers, but it proued a meere bragge.

§. X.

1. Optatus cited his Aduerſaries, who refuſed to ſubmitte them ſelues to the Church, to be tryed by the Teſtament, admitted by themſelues. But the cauſe it ſelf, was, in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world, to be decided in a Councell: and was, in fine, ſo determined.

2. For finding out the truth, in matter of faith, recourſe is to be made to the fountaine.

VOs dicitis licet; nos, non licet. inter licet veſtrum & non licet nostrum nutant & remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat, nemo nobis: omnes contentioſi homines ſumus. (Eſto.) Quaerendi ſunt iudices, ſi Chriſtiani, de vtraque parte dari non poſſunt, quia ſtudijs veritas impeditur. Deforis quaerendus eſt Iudex: ſi paganus, non poteſt noſſe Chriſtiana ſecreta; ſi Iudaeus inimicus eſt Chriſtiani baptiſmatis. Ergo in terri • nullum de hac re reperiri po • erit iudictum, de caelo quaerendus eſt Iudex. Sed vt quid palſamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio teſtamentum. Baro p. 328. ex Optato.

1. HAuing anſwered what was obiected out of S. Auguguſtine; he, will vndertake, for vs, to ſatisfie that you bring from Optatus. and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuerſie moued by the Donatiſts, this great Doctour doth anſwer, yea the S. A • g. contra Donati • tas paſſim. Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. & li. 1. co • t. Creſc. c. 31. & 32 whole Catholike world did agree, that the matter was to be defined in Councell; and that, not by cleere ſcripture; there was none; but by tradition. By the teſtament; yes. not the written, but, the nuncupatiue. By the holie Ghoſt,S Aug ſuprà inter citat. ex Ock lit. 1. a iudge from heauen; but, ſpeaking (b) in a Councell. The whole world did iudge, that this verie Controuerſie whereof Optatus ſpeakes, was to be determined ſo; and accordinglie it was ſo determined and ended.

Neither doth Optatus denie, that which all Catholikes when Saint Auguſtine wrote, graunted, (and he himſelfe yeelded as much of the Serpit corum ſermo v • lut cancer. dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat eſſe illis temporibus vitioſa doctrina, &c. Dictum eſt hoc & de Arrio, cuius doctrina niſi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Epiſcopis diſsiparetur, pectora multorum ſicut cancer intrauerat. Optat. Milleu. li. 4. Nicene Councell, of whoſe authoritie wee shall preſentlie heare more from S. Anathaſius who was in it,) that the Church, which hath promiſe of aſsiſtance, or the Paſtors, all aſſembled in a Coūcell, thoſe whom the holie Ghoſt hath placed to gouerne, and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine, haue power to determine a controuerſie in Religion: But, the Donatiſts excepting againſt the Catholikes, as parties in the cauſe, he betakes himſelfe to ſcripture; againſt which (being admitted on both ſides) that pretended exception, had no place. children that contend about a Legacie, both admit their father teſtament; and, if there, his words decide the controuerſie; they reſt: and ſo, he pleades, the Donatiſts muſt do when the words of our Sauiours will or teſtament be showed; vnles they proceede (as they had denied Church-authoritie, ſo) to denie that, and him. So on he goes to shewe the thing, inſcripture. But what if the words of the teſtamēt be obſcure? The matter then requires a Iudge; and this Iudge muſt haue authoritie, and aſſiſtance; if the caſe be, as this was, about diuine faith: which aſſiſtance, none hath, but by vertue of our Sauiours promiſe; and his promiſe was made to none but to the Church; not to Pagans, nor heretikes; but, to the Church: wherefore, the Church is to iudge. Yet further: what if the words of the teſtament haue it not at all? the queſtion was, Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church. The anſwer to which Queſtion, you doe not finde in ſcripture; theQui lotus eſt &c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention ſuch as were baptized by heretikes. There is not in all ſcripture Saint Auguſtine ſaies, anQuamuia huius rei certè de ſcripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum &c. S. Aug. li. cont. Creſc. c. 33 vt ſuprà. Apoſtoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt, ſed conſuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano, ab eorum traditione exordium ſumpſiſſe credenda eſt; ſicut ſunt multa quae vniuerſa tenet Eccleſia, & ob hoc ab Apoſtolis praecepta benè credūtur, quanquam ſcripta non reperian tur. li. 5. de bapt. c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos &c. De vnitate Eccleſiae c. 19. example of it. Shall the matter then reſt; and the Donatiſts, againſt the cuſtome and practize of the Church, obtaine the cauſe? There is yet a remedie; and this is, to call a Councell, from all parts of the world; and there, by the promiſed aſſiſtance, to decide it. Which was done accordinglie, and in the heart of the Church ſymbolicall, the booke wherein Chriſtian Religion is written by the ſpirit of the liuing God, it was found, and brought to light; and propoſed. And to this iudgment, all Catholikes afterward did ſubſcribe, and S. Cyprian alſo who in his time thought the other more probable, would, if wee beleeue Saint Auguſtine, moſt willinglie haue donne; and ſuch as would not (hauing notice of it) were, and are, accounted Heretikes.

2. Hence (that I note this by the way) wee take an Argument againſt you to proue by the iudgment of Antiquitie, two things. 1. that the Church can propoſe and oblige vs to beleeue that which she hath receaued onlie by word of mouth. 2. that our Sauiour did not limit his promiſed Aſſiſtance, to fundamentalls onlie. Not onlie to fundamentals, nor onlie to the written word. Wee haue, I ſaie, in theſe two things, the iudgment of the Church which was in, and before Saint Auguſtines daies, againſt you. They did inquire, diligentlie, what had beene taught formerlie, what tradition had been left in the Church by thoſe who firſt planted Religion in it; they made recourſe to the fountaine. Which kind of proceeding for the reſolution of difficulties, had beene commended to them from theQuid enim & ſi de aliqua modica quaeſtione diſceptatio eſſet, nō ne oporteret in antiquiſsimas recurrere Eccleſias, in quibus Apoſtoli conuerſati ſunt, & ab ijs de praeſenti quaeſtione ſumere quod certum & reliquidum eſt? Quid autem ſi neque Apoſtoli quidem Scripturas reliquiſſent nobis, nonne oportebat ordinem ſequi Traditionis, quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Eccleſias, cu •• ordinationi aſſentiunt multae gentes Barbarorum, eorum qui in Chriſtum credunt ſinc charactere vel atramento ſcriptam habentes per Spiritum in cordibus ſuis ſalutem, & veterem traditionem diligenter cuſtodientes &c. S. Irenaeus adu. Haereſ. li 3. c 4. cuius capitis initio Non oportet, inquit, adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatem, cùm Apoſtoli quaſi in depoſitorium diues, pleniſsimè in ea (Eccleſia) contulerint omnia quae ſint veritatis, vti omnis quicunque velit, ſumat ex ea potum vitae. Et Optatus in hanc ſententiam Nam & fontem, inquit, conſtat vnam eſſe de dotibus, vnde Haeretici non poſſunt vel ipſi bibere, vel alios potare. ita li. 2. Caeterùm lege in Irenaeo c. 3. li. 3. vbi de traditione praeclarè diſſerit. In compendio eſt apud religioſas & ſimplices mentes, & errorem deponere, & inuenire atque cruere veritatem. Nam ſi ad diuinae Traditionis caput & originem reuertamur, ceſſat error humanus; & ſacramentorum coeleſtium ratione perſpecta, quicquid ſub caligine ac nube tenebrarum obſcurum latebat, in lucem veritatis aperitur. Si canalis aquam ducens qui copiosè priùs & largiter profluebat, ſubitò deficiat, nonne ad fontem pergitur, vt illic defectionis ratio noſcatur, vtrumne areſcentibus venis in capite vnda ſiccauerit; (ſiccata ſit;) an verò integra inde & plena procurrens, in medio itinere deſtiterit: vt ſi vitio interrupti aut bibuli canalis effectum eſt, quo minus aqua continua perſeueranter ac iugiter flueret, refecto & confirmato canali ad vſum atque potum ciuitatis aqua collecta eadem vbertate atque integritate repreſentetur, qua de fonte proficiſcitur. Quod & nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta diuina ſeruantes, vt ſi aliquo nutauerit & vacillauerit veritas, ad originem Dominicam & Euangelicam, & Apoſtolicam Traditionem reuertamur; & inde ſurgat actus noſtri ratio, vnde & ordo & origo ſurrexit. S. Cyprianus Epiſt. 74 ad Pompeium. De qua ep. vide S. Aug li. 5. contra Donat. c. 23 & 25. Vide etiam de modo veritatem inueſtigandi, Tertullianum, lib. de Praeſcript. c. 19. 20. 21. &c. beginning; and was in after-ages ſtill approued, as appeares by theSee the Tomes of Councels practice of the Church vpō all occaſions of importance.

§. XI.

Saint Athanaſius eſteemed it a vaine thing for thoſe who would not ſtand vnto the Nicene decree, to call for Councels. He did eſteeme the decree of it, infallible. Of diuers infallible Authorities, one may he more powerfull and commaunding then another.

FRuſtra igitur circumcurſitantes praetexerunt ob fidem ſe Synodos poſtulare, cum ſit diuina Scriptura omnibus potentior. Quod ſi ad hanc rem vſus Synodi deſideratur, ſuperſunt acta patrum: nam neque in hac parte negligentes fuere qui Niceae conuenerunt, ſed ita accuratè ſcripſerunt vt qui ſinceriter eorum ſcripta legat, facilè reminiſcatur eius in Chriſtum religionis quae à ſacris literis annunciatur. Baro. p. 327. ex Athanaſio.

S. ATHANASIVS was at the Councell of Nice, where the Arian hereſie was anathematized, and the Catholike faith eſtablished; yet he is alſo brought againſt the authoritie of all generall Councells; firſt becauſe he tels the Arians, (who would not ſtād to the iudgmēt of that Coū cell which was oecumenicall, and yet cried out for Councells,) that in vaine they runne about the world pretending they required Councells for the faith, whereas the diuine ſcripture is more powerfull then all. Secondlie becauſe he ſaith that, who ſo reades the writings or acts of the Nicene fathers, they will eaſilie call to minde that Religion which is showed in holie ſcripture.

I am not yet ſo learned as to conceaue how, the infallibilitie of Coū cels is any waie contradicted in theſe words; ſo farre I am from thinking that this great Saint did forget himſelfe, and vndoe what with others he before had donne. The decree of the Nicene Councell, together with the Acts, did ſo bring to minde the faith commended in the ſcripture, that withall it had force, he ſaith, enough toQuis vſus quaeſo Conciliorum, quum Nicaenum Cō cilium aduerſus Arianam caeteraſque haereſes ſatis valeat? S. Athanaſ. de Synodis. Indecens & nefarium aliquid ex rectè & iuſtè decretis, & ex rebus Niceae publicè cum illuſtriſſimo principe Conſtantino patre tuo per accuratam deliberationem conſtitutis immutare velle, &c. per quam (Synodum) non illa ſola, ſed & reliquae haereſes ſublatae ſunt, in qua certè & addere aliquid temerarium eſt, & auferre periculoſum. Ibidem epiſt. Synod, ad Conſtantium. Auguſt. • ufficiunt ea quae Niceae confeſſa fuere, ſatisque per ſe vi • um habent, tum ad ſubuerſionem impij dogmatis, tum ad • telam vtilitatemque Eccleſiaſticae doctrinae. Idem in E • ſt. ad Epiſc. Africae. ouerthrowe the cō trarie, and to put the matterEgo arbitrabar omniū quotquot vnquā fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitatē Nicaeno Concilio ſedatam eſſe. nā fides quae inibi a Patribus ſecū dū ſacras Scripturas tradita, & confeſsionibus confirmata eſt, ſatis mihi idonea, efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam, & pietatem eius quae in Chriſto eſt fidei conſtituendā Atque ideo diuerſis Concilijs per Galliā & Hiſpanias, & Romae celebratis, omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere, iſtos luci fugas qui ſeſe etiamnum occultant & quae Arrij ſunt ſapiunt, comm • calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percuſſerunt, e • quod iſti ſibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum &c. 〈◊〉 Athanaſ. Epiſt. ad Epictet. Qua igitur audacia fit vt poſt tanti Concilij authoritatem diſceptationes aut quaeſtiones inf • tuant? Ibidem. out 〈◊〉 question; and ſo farre, that, who 〈◊〉 did oppoſe themſelues, wereEgo autem demiratus ſum tuam pietatem haec ſuſtinuiſſe, quod non ſimul & iſtos compeſcuerit, & piam • dem (in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt ſuprà) illis propoſ • erit, vt ijs auditis vel in quietem ſe darent, vel ſi inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur. Ibidem. • ereticks. It was a vaine thing ſo he ſteemed it, in the Arians by other Coūcells, to ſeek to reuerſe what was •• ere eſtablished; the definition of •• e holie Ghoſt, there made, the word • f God, by that Councell, remaines fo • uer; Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud (Nicenum) ali • ſubinde concilia moliuntur, quippe qui pluſquam decem ſynodos iam inſtituerint, in ſingulis ſemper aliquid innouantes &c. ignari interim omnem plantationem qua • non plantauerit pater caeleſtis cradicandam eſſe: verb •• autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet. S Athanaſ. Epist. ad Epiſc. Africae. verbum illud Domini per • licaenum Concilium manet in aeter • um.

As for the compariſon which he • akes, with ſcripture; itCatholici Scripturam Sacram non ſubijciunt ſed anteponunt Concilijs: neque in hoc vlla controuerſia eſ • Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod ſi interdum aliq • Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Eccleſia ſiue 〈◊〉 Concilio, non intelligunt quoad authoritatem & ſecundum ſe, ſed quoad explicationem & quoad nos. Ibidem. hurteth • ot. He that ſaith, the ſcripture where it is plaine and vniuerſallie • eceaued, is more powerfull then a Councell; or that, the eternall ve • tie opēlie reuealed, as it is to Saints, 〈◊〉 more powerfull then ſcripture; • oth not preiudice infallibilitie. Both • ay haue it, and yet one be more • owerfull. And this ſuppoſed, viſit • hat both ſcripture and the Coun • ell, be infallible; but the power of cripture more; the diſcourſe of S. Athanaſius is conuincing. He tha • will not ſubmit his iudgment to tha • authoritie which is moſt powerfull▪ doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the leſſe; he doth eaſilie contemne a Councell, who contemne • the Scripture, propoſed by the vniuerſall Church; as the Arians did, who contradicted open Scripture, and all Antiquitie.

Neither doth this make any thing againſt the deciſion of controuerſies, by Councells; for, though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee muſt beleeue, yet may there be another way to finde it out; and that certaine too. And doubtles, he that ſeeth in ſcripture that, which he knowes the whole ſymbolicall Church (that which holds out the booke wherein • he reades it,) doth beleeue, is more powerfullie moued to giue aſſent, then he that heares a Councell on • ie. And our aſſent is more proue when the Prophets and Apoſtles all, propoſe the ſame, then when one alone doth auouch it; though one Prophet or Apoſtle by himſelfe be ſufficient and infallible.

§. XII.

Vincentius Lirinenſis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith, as certaine and vndoubted. How a man is to carrie himſelf, when matter of faith is questioned. The way to finde the Catholike ſence. Generall Councels, infallible in their decrees; and thoſe are Hereticks that contradict and oppoſe them.

SAepe magno ſtudio & ſumma attentione perquirens à quaplurimis ſanctitate & doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo poſsim certa quadam & quaſi generali ac regulari vi • Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falſitate diſc • nere; huiuſmodi ſemper reſponſum ab omnibus ferèretuli. Quo • ſiue ego ſiue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fra • des deprehendere laqueoſque vitare & in fide ſanus atque integer permanere, duplici modo munire fidem ſuam Domino adiouante deberet; Primò ſcilicet, diuinae legis authoritate: tu • deinde Eccleſiae Catholicae traditione. Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1.

VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS▪ The argument taken from this Father is, that in his golden treatiſe entitled Aduerſus prophanas haereſeô • nouationes, he hath omitted to ſpecifie generall Councells and their decrees, and diuers leaues are ſpent t • proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe. But no paines will ſerue. H • doth more then once or twice mention them, and hath teſtified wha • he thought of their authoritie. Two generall Vicent. Lyrin. c. 1. waies there are to diſtinguish the truth from errour in mat • er of Religion; the one by Scripture, • he other by Tradition: but the ſcripture is profound and obſcure, whe • evpon it hath come to paſſe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it • iuers waies; ſo that, to knowe the • ight meaning of it, it is neceſſarie • o recurre to tradition; and, (as he • aith in the ſecond chapter of his booke)Idem c. 2. vide Diſp. li. 5. c 1. & li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. & pag. 395 fine, that the line of the propheticall and Apoſtolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Eccleſiaſticall and Catholike ſence. Which Catholik ſence, may be found three waies chieflie, according as he conceaues it; one is to ſee if it be held by the ſymbolicall or vniuerſall Church; a ſecond is, to ſee if it be held by the Fathers, each writing in his owne time; a third, to ſee whether it be defined in any generall Councell. By theſe three waies principallie, a man is directed to the Catholik or true ſence of ſcripture: and all three are not neceſſarie, but any of the three will ſerue the turne.V • i • nt. c. • . In the Catholik Church, ſaith he, wee muſt haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where; that which hath been beleeued euer; that which hath been beleeued by all, for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare, which truelie doth comprehend all vniuerſallie. And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuerſalitie, antiquitie, conſent. Vniuerſalitie wee shall follow thus; if wee confeſſe that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg: And antiquitie thus; if wee doe not in any ſort goe back from thoſe ſences which it is manifeſt that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commended: and Cenſent likewiſe, if wee followe the definitions and decrees of all, or neere all, the prieſts and maſters in Antiquitie. AndQuid igitur faciet Chriſtianus Catholicus, ſi ſe aliqua Eccleſiae particula ab vniuerſalis fidei communione praeciderit? quid vtique, niſi vt peſtiſero corruptoque mē bro ſanitatem vniuerſi corporis anteponats quod ſi nouella aliqua cōtagia non iam portiunculam tantum ſed totam pariter Eccleſiam commaculare conetur? (locum hunc corruperūt Wittaker & Vitus, haeretici,) tunc item prouidebit vt antiquitati inhaereat; quae prorſus iā non poteſt vlla nouitatis fraude ſeduci. Quid ſi in ipſa vetuſtate duorum aut trium hominū vel certè ciuitatis vnius aut etiam prouinciae alicuius error deprehendatur? Tunc omnino curabit vt paucorū temeritati, vel inſcitiae, fi qua ſunt vniuerſaliter antiquitus vniuerſalis Eccleſiae decreta praeponat. Quid ſi tale aliquid emergat vbi nihil huiuſmodi reperiatur? Tuuc operam dabit vt collatas inter ſe Maiorū cō ſulat interroge • que ſententias; eorum dū taxat qui diuerſis licet tē poribus & locis, in vnius tamē Eccleſiae Catholica communione & fide permanentes, magistri probabiles extiterunt: & quicquid nō vnus aut duo tātum ſed omnes pariter vno eodemque cō ſen •• , apertè, frequēter, perſeueranter, tenuiſſe, ſcripſiſſe, docuiſſe cognouerit, id ſibi quoque intelligat abſque vlla dubitatione credendum. Vinc. Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the ſame purpoſe.

He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke, there had been three generall Councells; whoſe decrees, though not made, the Nicenum anno 325. firſt of them, much more then a hundred yeeres before him, he • umbers amongſt the records of an • iquitie which are to be looked into. And in like manner, the decrees ma • e 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs, • ake place and order in the records • f antiquitie, reſpectiuelie to our times: the diſtance of precedence • eing more, then was the diſtance of any Councell precedent, reſpectiuelie vnto him.

You are further to obſerue, that, • o the vniuerſalitie of a truth he doth not require, that it be diſtinctlie beleeued of all that profeſſe Chriſtian religion; ſome haue profeſſed it who beleeued not the bleſſed Trinitie, others denied the Incarnation; the greateſt myſteries were not Catholick in this ſenſe, neither doth • he require that a point or veritie which is Catholik, be ſuch that it hath been expreſlie and diſtinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times; the Catholick Epiſtles in this ſenceVide Diſp. pag. 431. An excellent leſſon for theſe times. were not all, Catholick: but his meaning is, (as I inſinuated before,) that a ſence or veritie appertaining to faith, which is beleeued by the Symbolicall, that is by the vniuerſall catholike Church, either allwaies, or at any time, (for it can neuer erre in diuine faith;) or, which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught, and profeſſed; or, which hath beene defined by all, or neere all the Paſtors, (thoſe which are to teach,) in a generall councell; is to be receaued as a Catholick ſenſe.

Twice, in that little booke, herepeates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik ſenſe by antiquitie conſenting, either in Councell, or out of Councell; and, by vniuerſalitie; and in both places the definition of generall Councells, and their authoritie comes in. As, in the 38. chapter, where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks, who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures againſt the truth, in this caſe, ſaith he, Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuerſall Church, and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree; wherein likewiſe it is neceſſarie that they follow the vniuerſalitie, antiquitie, and conſent of the Catholick Church. And if at any time a part doth rebell againſt the whole, noueltie againſt antiquitie, or the diſagreement of one or ſome fewe erring perſons against the conſent of all, or at leaſt of farre more Catholikes; let them preferre the integritie of the whole, before the corruption of the part. And in the ſame whole, the religion of antiquitie before the prophaneſſe of noueltie: as alſo in antiquitie it ſelfe, let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe, primū omnium generalia, ſi qua ſunt, vniuerſalis cō cilij decreta praeponant; tūc deinde, ſi id minus eſt, ſequantur quod proximum eſt, multorum atque magnorū conſentientes ſibi ſententias magiſtrorum. Vincent. Lirin. c 38. first of all if any be, the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell: then after, if that be not, let thē followe that which is next, (to wit) the ſentences or opinions of many and great masters conſenting amonge themſelues.

In the next chapter, he tells what Fathers thoſe muſt be, whoſe opinions wee take; they muſt beIdem c. 39. orthodoxe, ſuch as liuing piouſlie in the Catholike faith and communion, and remaining conſtant, haue died in Chriſt; or happilie bene put to death for him: and thoſe he ſaith are ſo to be beleeued, that what ſoeuer either all, or the greater part, haue eſtablished or confirmed, receauing, holding, or deliuering, with one and the ſame meaning, manifeſtlie, oft, conſtantlie, as it were in a certaine councell of maſters agreeing among themſelues, the ſame is to be eſteemed certaine and vndoubted. And againe in theIdem c. 40. next, Hos, in Eccleſia Dei diuinitus per tempora & loca diſpenſatos, quiſquis in ſenſu Catholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Chriſto ſentientes contempſerit, non hominem contemnit ſed Deum. He that contemnes theſe (fathers) diuinelie diſtributed, according to times and places, in the Church of God; agreeing in Christ in the ſence of a Catholick point of doctrine, he contemneth not man, but God. So greate hee eſteemeth this authoritie of the fathers and maſters, which God hath diſpenſed, not at one, but in ſeuerall times; and yet, the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell, with him, hauec. 38. vt ſuprà. the precedence; primum omnium generalia, ſi qua ſint, vniuerſalis Concilij decreta praeponant; tunc deinde, ſi id minus eſt, ſequantur quod proximum eſt, multorum at que magnorum conſentientes ſibi ſententias magiſtrorum.

Againe in the 41. chapter he repeates a ſecond time the ſame matter, of finding out the Catholike ſence by antiquitie, conſenting, in Councell or out of Councell: where he ſpeakes yet more home.Diximus in ipſa Eccleſiae vetuſta • e duo quae • am vehementer ſtudioſeque obſeruā da, quibus penitus inhaerere deberent, quicunque haeretici eſſe nolunt. Primū ſi qu • d antiquitus abomnibus Eccleſiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuerſalis Concilij authoritate decretum: Deinde ſi qua noua &c. c. 41. Exēplū adhibuimus Sācti Cōcili • quod antè trienmum fermè in Aſia apud Epheſum celebratum eſt &c. Vniuerſis Sacerdotibus, qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant &c. omnes verò Catholicos ſacerdotes fuiſſe &c. c. 42. Wee haue ſaid that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obſerued; (quibus) wherevnto, all thoſe muſt adhere ſteedfaſtlie, that will not be hereticks: (why do you ſtart?) firſt of all, if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell, by all the Prieſts of the Catholick Church: and next, if any new queſtion should ariſe wherein that were not found, recourſe to be made to the opinions or ſentences of holie Fathers, thoſe onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued maſters, continuing ſtill in the vnitie of communion and faith: and what ſoeuer they be found to haue held with one and the ſame meaning and conſent, that without all ſcruple should be iudged the true and Catholike (doctrine) of the Church. Here beſides the faith and profeſſion of the Church ſymbolicall or vniuerſall, be two other rules, wherevnto all, that will not be flat heretiks, muſt of neceſſitie conforme themſelues; the decrees of oecumenicall Councells, and, the vniforme conſent of Fathers. I leaue you now, to compare your condition, with his opinion. What he deliuers in this matter, is not his doctrine alone. c. 1.

That you conceaue him the better, he preſentlie brings, for inſtance or example, the proceedings of the Councell of Epheſus (held c. 42. three yeares, no more, before he wrote this booke,) wherein Neſtorius was condemned; the anathematiſmes of the Councell you may ſee when you pleaſe. It is worth the noting by the way, for it is your practiſe too, and indeed, of all hereticks, that Neſtorius, as he relates in the end of the chapter, renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuerſies, affirmingc. 43. totam etiam nunc errare, & ſemper erraſſe Eccleſiam, that the whole Church euen now, (in the time of the Councell) doth erre, and alwaies hath erred. In the laſt chapter of all, he brings in the authoritie of the See Apoſtolike and in fine, concludes his booke, If neither Apoſtolicall definitions, nor Eccleſiasticall decrees, whereby according to the ſacred conſent of vniuerſalitie and antiquitie, all Heretikes euer, and in fine Pelagius, Caeleſtius, Neſtorius, haue been deſeruedlie condemned, be to be violated, it is neceſſarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter, which haue a care to shewe themſelues lawfull children of the mother-Church, be aſſociated and cloſe ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers, and, ſo inſiſt, that they die, in it: and that they deteſt, abhorre, ſpeake againſt, perſecute, the prophane nouelties of prophane men.

§. XIII. Exceptions againſt a text, or two, refuted.

THE laſt Oppoſition which you make, is againſt two of the places of Scripture, which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie. Theſe alſo, leaſt you conceaue there is difficultie, I will conſider as farre as your Oppoſition goes, (though otherwiſe not meddling with the Queſtion de Iure, which you finde in our Deuines diſcuſſed at large,) and then make an end. The one of theſe places containes our Sauiours promiſe of the Holie Ghoſts aſſiſtance, made vnto the Church; The Spirit of Truth when he comes, shall teach you all truth. Ioan. 14. & 16. The other of the places repreſents vnto vs the interpretation of the forſaid promiſe, as it was vnderſtood by the Apoſtles, who relying on it, met in Councell and there defined a Controuerſie; It hath ſeemed good to the Holie Ghoſt, and to vs. Acts 15.

Againſt the former place, you ſaie, first that it is meant of the Apoſtles onlie. This is falſe: for it is, foreuer; I will aske my father, and he will giue you another comforter, that he remaine with you for euer, the Spirit of truth. And, apud vos manebit, he shall remaine with you, Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his myſticall bodie, which cannot ſubſiſt without his Spirit; and, for confirmation and illuſtration of her faith, not onelie in the Apoſtles time when our Sauiour was gone, but euer ſince, after they be gonne, she needs aſſiſtance of the Spirit. Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without ſuch comfort, non relinquam vos orphanos, Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans. O father, eſtablish, confirme, ſanctifie them, in the truth. I aske not for them onlie, Ioh. 17. (the Apoſtles) but for the Church, for thoſe which by their word shall beleeue in me. That, by thy prouidence, for my ſake, in our Spirit, all be, as it were, one; and agree (to their proportion) as wee doe; who doe iudge, and approue, ſtill, the ſame.

But tell me; hath the Spirit left the Church, or is he ſtill in it? if he hath left it, how hath she ſupernaturall operations? how doth she beleeue the diuine word? how doth she ſubſiſt? as the Goſpell ſaith she shall, notwithſtanding all the endeuours of hell it ſelfe. Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it, it is then true that the promiſe holds ſtill, euen that, which was made vnto the Church, in the Apoſtles time, and began firſt to be fulfilled in them.

The greateſt promiſes in all the Scripture be two; one of God the Father, to ſend his ſonne to redeeme the world; the other of God the Sonne, to ſend the holie Ghoſt, his ſpirit, to teach and inſtruct his Church: if you doe not beleeue the later is performed, you will giue vs cauſe to thinke that you would euacuate the former too, and not truſt God, at all, in his promiſe; nor in his couenant neither; (though ſo farre you truſt one another. Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37.) I will giue my lawe in their bowels, and in their hart I will write it, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. My Spirit that is in thee, and my words that I haue put in thy mouth, Iſa. 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth, and out of the mouth of thy ſeed, and out of the mouth of the ſeed of thy ſeed ſaith our Lord, from this preſent, and foreuer. See the Diſp. li. 3.

Secondlie you ſaie, that it is not to be vnderſtood of all the dogmaticall points, or doctrine, by our Sauiour reuealed, and deliuered vnto the Church; but of ſome points onlie; • hoſe which are expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creed; and not neceſſarilie of all thoſe neither. Here againe you doe manifeſtlie contradict the text of Scripture; and open the waie to let errour and hereſie into the Church. For, if the holie Ghoſt teach no more, by the promiſe of our Sauiour, then thoſe fewe points; it is impoſſible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities; though they be neceſſarie to be knowne. And the iudge of controuerſies, the holie Ghoſt, being put • o ſilence, errour, in all other matters of that kinde, is remedileſſe.

For example; if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptiſme; this errour were pernicions to the Church; and • hould it preuaile in all, (as it might • f the holie Ghoſt taught nothing but what is expreſſed in the Apostles Creed,) both infants, and others inmumerable, would be ruined thereby: for, vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghoſt, Ioh. 3. he shall • ot enter into the kingdome of heauen. The Euchariſt is not expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creed, yet you ſaie that it is neceſſarie to receaue it, and, by the diuine commaund, in both kinds. The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them, be not expreſſed there; yet the Church hath, them, and the whole Chriſtian lawe, written in her heart by the ſpirit of the liuing God. Our obligations towards ſuperiours, of all ſorts, (in conſcience, and by diuine precept, to be performed,) and the rules of Chriſtian conuerſation, be not expreſſed there, though the Church may not be ignorāt of them Paſtors and Bishops are neceſſarie and, by God ordained for her direction; and the Prophecies be neceſſarie for confirmation of her faith; and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other, though they be not expreſlie in the Apoſtles Creed.

I ſpeake of that Creed, becauſe you name it; as alſo, becauſe the certaintie of other Creeds, ſet out in Councells; or, of the explication made and propoſed by the Church is the thing here diſputed. I acknowledge it, as proceeding from the aſſiſtance of the holie Ghoſt, to the Church, in more then is expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creed. Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene, or that of S. A • hanaſius. if you beleeue it too, then • ecall your anſwer; for whilſt it ſtands, there is no remedie for errours in theſe matters, and many more; nor way of aſſurāce for many things, which it is neceſſarie for the Church to knowe.

Moreouer it is certaine by the Goſpells, that our bleſſed Sauiour • aught many things to the Church, • oth before his paſſion, and after his • eſurrection, which are not expreſ • ed in the Apoſtles Creede, whereun • o, you think, only, aſſiſtance is ex • ended. Reade the Goſpell of S. • ohn all ouer, or of S. Luke, or S. Ma • hewe; and you shall finde this to be • ue. And theſe things alſo, the Spi • it, according to promiſe, doth ſuggeſt. I haue yet many things to ſaie vn • o you, which you cannot beare nowe; • ut, when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, • e shall teach you all truth: for he shall • ot ſpeake of himſelfe; Ioh. 16. but what things ſoeuer be shall heare, he shall ſpeake. This before his paſſion; and after it, for fortie daies he appeared to them, ſpeaking of the kingdome of God. Act. Apoſt. c. 1. Now, that all this, whether written, or not written, otherwiſe then by the holie Ghoſt in the minde and heart of the Church, is included within the obiect of the promiſed aſſiſtance, I proue by no leſſe authoritie then of our Sauiour Ieſus Chriſt; vpon whoſe promiſes, all that acknowledge him to be true God, Ioh. 14. should relie, beleeuing them and him, as moſt faithfull. He, (the Spirit of truth) shall teach you all things, and ſuggeſt vnto you, all whatſoeuer I shall haue ſaid vnto you.

It is alſo neceſſarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture, and the sē •• , which without aſſiſtāce of the holie Ghoſt cānot be done, as I could eaſilie shew were I to treate of that matter:Vide Disputat. li. 3. c. 4. & 5. but forbearing that diſcourſe, 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be neceſſarie for the Church to knowe that o •• Sauiour did ordaine Baptiſme, and Euchariſt, and Order? (if perchanc • you thinke the inſtitution of Bishop to be Acts 20. deuine;) and, how a man may knowe the meaning of thoſe paſſages of Scripture which doe mention theſe things; or, that the texts, indeed be, Scripture; if the holie Ghoſt, doth by promiſe, teach the Church no more then what is expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creed? I demaund alſo, how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expreſſed? or, that he doth teach any at all? if by the Scripture; thē he teacheth more then is expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creede; for, the Scripture is not expreſlie there. And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before; If he teach none but what is expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creed, how be you certaine that the Goſpells be diuine Scripture? who taught you that? The ſame Queſtion I will aske, and you muſt anſwer (mark well) of euerie Cha • ter; and of the meaning of euerie verſe which you pretend to be againſt any part of our whole doctrine; or to make for any peece, of your Religion.

Thirdlie, ſome perchance will obiect, that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points, or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended, yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Paſtors, but onlie of the ſymbolicall or vniuerſall Church, which may retaine it, though the Bishops and Paſtors all should erre. You knowe, out of the begining of this Relection, where this euaſion is inſinuated; and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring, you ſeeme to make an offer, in the end to repoſe heere. But, none that beleeues the Scripture, can reſt in it; Firſt becauſe our Sauiours words are directed to the Apoſtles and their Succeſſors, who were to teach; and needed aſſiſtance in it; Ioann. 14. he shall teach you. And ſo they did vnderſtand it, as appeares by their decree whereof I am to ſpeake afterwards. Secondlie the ſymbolicall or vniuerſall Church doth include Paſtors and people; and the people are to learne of the Paſtors, whoſe office is to teach; how shall they beleeue vnles they heare? and how shall they heare with out a preacher? Rom. 10. Teach all Nations, was ſaid,Matth. vlt. not to the people, but to the Paſtors;Ioann. vlt. and S. Peter and his ſucceſſors in him, were bid to feede the flock of Chriſt: wherefore it was requiſite the Paſtors on whom the people, and among them the predeſtinate, depend for inſtruction, should be aſſiſted in their teaching: eſpeciallie then when they ſpeake all, the ſame. Thirdlie, our Sauiour ordained Paſtors and Doctors in the Church, Epheſ. 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine, in the circumuention of errour; and if this meanes, which is eſtablished till the worlds end, be fit for this purpoſe, (as no Chriſtian can thinke otherwiſe of our Sauiours prouidence, whom he beleeues to be God,) it is aſſiſted ſo, that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it. Fourthlie, if euer wee are to beleeue that Chriſt ſpeaketh and reſolueth doubts by the Paſtors of the Church, according to that, He which heareth you heareth me, Luc. 10. he which contemneth you cōtemneth me; wee muſt beleeue, that when all, deliuer one and the ſame thing, as Gods word or meaning, vnto the world; then, without all doubt, our Sauiour ſpeakes by them: and he who heares or contemnes them, doth heare or contemne Ieſus Chriſt, whoſe miniſters and Embaſſadors they be.2. Corint. 5.

Neither doe you ſatisfie this argument by ſaying that you will heare them if they ſpeake according to the word of God;Diſput. li. 3. c. 1. & 2. for, therein you challenge vnto your ſelfe, without warrant, that, which you denie to the whole clergie, who in the Apoſtles were bid teach, and had the promiſe of aſſiſtance: and, in the Queſtion, Whether they or you haue the true ſence of Gods word, (as of this, This is my body,) you, moſt arrogantlie, doe make your ſelfe the iudge. Your ſelfe I ſay, without the Spirit; denying in the meane time, and impugning the power of iudging in this caſe, in and to them, which haue and shewe, the promiſe of the Spirit.Vt Diodorum ac Theod. non expellerēt PP. aut inuenerunt eos iam mutaſſe ſententiam, aut quod extremum eſt, admonitos mutate fecerunt. Nam aliter co • in Eccleſia Catholica manere potuiſſe quis ſapiens Catholicus credat? Cum verò tanta quae dicta ſunt, ego indoctus & Latinae linguae, de cauſa apud Graecos habita, poſt centum annos pro meo captu & facultate, vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim, quanta credendum eſt illam Sanctorum Patrum Congregationem in cauſa penes ſe & recenti memoria cognoſcere potuiſſe, illo etiam reuelante qui dixit, Vbi ſunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo, ibi in medio eorum ſum? Nam fideliter inuocatus non ſolum à Sacerdotibus, ſed ab omni quoque populo ſuo, cuius fides & expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet, dat omnibus congregatis vnum cor & animam vnam, vt nullus eorum ſuam velit eſſe ſententiam, niſi quae fuerit veritatis. Quo • ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus, & plures paucioribus, illo eorum medio cedunt? Q • oties etiam per neſcientes ſcienter operatur ipſe qui poteſt omnia facere ſupra quam petimus, aut intelligimus; qui promiſit quòd nobiſcum ſit omnibus di • bus vſque ad conſummationem ſaeculi? Vtinam ſibi nunquam ſaecularis poteſtas, quod ei creditum non eſt, in his negotijs vſurparet, quae nunquam faeliciter vſurpauit. Caeterùm congregatis in ſuo nomine Chriſtus deeſſe non poteſt: quia cùm ſit omnipotens Veritas, mentiri nullatenus poteſt. Facund. Epiſc. Defenſ. Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem ſententiam plura, li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò, de ſancto Leone dicit, Neque vlterius retractare neque diſcutere ſe poſſe profeſſus eſt ea, quae ſemel fuerant Chalcedonenſi definita Concilio, velut quae noſſet non tam humano quàm diuino Spiritu conſtituta. This Father, as alſo S. Aug. when they ſaie God reueales vnto the Councell, vſe the word ſomething largelie, in the ſence imported in the promiſe of Aſsiſtance; docebit vos. ſuggeret vobis. See the Diſput. pag 404. See the Diſput. l. 3. c. 6.

Fourthly, he that ſeeth the truth of this, and would yet flie Councells, 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 will imagine perchance, that, although the Paſtors all diſperſed, when they conſent, haue the warrant of the Spirit; yet, not when they be gathered in a Councell. But this imaginatiō argues a weaknes in cōceauing the termes which are ſpoken of; for, in this congregation or Councell, there is the whole teaching-power: which teaching power, (as hath been shewed) hath, and by promiſe, diuine aſſiſtance; and is to eſtablish the reſt, predeſtinate and all, in faith and true beleefe.

Fiftlie, you will ſaie that in generall Councells all the Paſtors or Bishops be not preſent; if they were, you would beleeue what they propoſe; becauſe the whole exteriour teaching-authoritie is there obliging; and they shewe their warrant,Luc. • 0 he that heareth you heareth me. Would your fellowes doe this, there were but one thing more to be diſputed in this matter, that is, Whether it be neceſſarie to the generalitie of a Coūcell, that all the Pastors and Biſhops without exception, be actuallie preſent in it; the reſolution of which Queſtion wee haue in the practice of the Apoſtles, and of the primitiue Church. ſo that no further difficultie can be pretended, if the truth be reallie our deſire, and hereticall obſtinacie put aſide. See the Diſput. li. 4. c. 7. & 8.

Againſt the later place, which brings with it the Apoſtles interpretation of the promiſe regiſtred in the former; it is ſaid firſt that, although that Councell had the aſſiſtance of the holie Ghoſt in making of their decree, ſo that it was, his alſo, as their words import; yet others after, haue it not, it was, (you think) a priuiledge in them, and laſted no longer in the Church, but wilſt they liued. This euaſion is precluded, both by the words, and the circumſtances of the graunt; it was made vnto the Apoſtles as Paſtors, for eſtabliſhing of the Church, (dedit Pastores, Epheſ. 4. vt iam non ſimus paruuli fluctuantes, & circumferamur &c.) which Church needed it, not onelie in the Apoſtles time, but afterwards, The Arian, Sabellian, Nestorian, and other Hereſies. as other difficulties (whereof ſome were about the moſt fundamentall points, in the verie Creed,) did ariſe: and the diuel hath not yet donne, ſuggeſting hereſie and oppugning the doctrine which our Sauiour left vnto the Church; and thereby, impugning Him, and Her; wherefore, ſtill it is neceſſarie. And accordinglie, the promiſe was abſolute; without limitation of yeeres; or ages. Yea the text it ſelfe, hath in aeternum, Ioann. 14. Epheſ. 4. for euer: and, donec occurramus omnes, vntill wee meete all.

Secondlie it is ſaid, that vnto Paſtors ſo aſſembled, the holie Ghoſt by vertue of the promiſe, is preſent aſſiſting to fundamentall points; but no further. Before, you would haue detracted from the graunt and wiped out of it, the latitude of time: now you limit it for the matter. If a Lawier should vſe your leaſe ſo, you would exclaime that he did corrupt it. Whē our Sauiour had prayed to his Father that he would eſtablish or Sanctifie his Apoſtles (and thoſe who by their meanes were to beleeue in him, that is, his Church,) in the truth; he did preſentlie, vnfould what he meant by that truth, and ſaid ſermo tuus eſt veritas, thy word (the word of God) is the truth; and in this, which comprehends not the Apoſtles Creed onlie, he would haue thē eſtablished. This ſanctification is according to S. Cyrill, a participation of the holy Ghoſt, ad intelligendas rectè Scripturas, & Eccleſiae dogmata, Cyrill. Alex. in Ioan. li. 11. cap. 25. to vnderstand the Scriptures well, and the doctrine of the Church. In a like fullnes doth our Sauiour himſelfe expreſſe the latitude of this aſſiſtance, the shall teach you all things and ſuggeſt vnto you all what ſoeuer I shall haue ſaid vnto you. Ioann. 14. So did the Apoſtle vnderſtand it alſo, in ſaying that Paſtors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer, Epheſ. 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine. Such a giddines, happens in other things alſo, beſides fundamentalls.

The Church likewiſe beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuerſall; to all our Sauiours doctrine: as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels; as in that of Trent. And ſo much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church, if you reflect vpon that which hath beene ſaid out of S. Augustine, in the Donatiſts caſe about Baptiſme; which controuerſie (not being expreſſed in the Apoſtles Creed,) was in a Councell, defined; and, in vertue of this aſſiſtance; by the whole Christian world. Neither doe you finde the difficultie, which was reſolued by the Apoſtles in their Councell, put into the Creede.

Thirdlie you ſaie that out of a generall aſſiſtance, ſuch as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke, infallibilitie cannot be inferd; and more you will not graunt. But our Sauiour graunted more; he promiſed the holie Ghoſt should teach the Church all truth; Ioh. 14. & 16. and his leſſons muſt not be doubted of; he cannot miſſe the truth, or teach a lie. The ſence which he doth inſpire, teach, affirme, is certaine; and the falſitie of any one thing (were it poſſible he should teach a falſitie,) would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie, in the eſtimation of his creatures, yea, the whole Scripture would be queſtioned, if this ground were not firme; • . Petr. 1. if that were not certaine, which men, inſpired by the holie Ghoſt, and affirming, as from him, or he, in them; might be falſe.

Fourthlie you ſaie that if the Councell follow Scripture, it hath aſſiſtance and is infallible; but not els. This ſuppoſeth that the Church without aſſiſtance can vnderſtand the Scripture, or teach and define matter of faith; whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture ſaith, Ioann. 15. without him wee can doe nothing; and therefore he hath promiſed aſſiſtance, that wee may knowe his will, and our dutie; and left the holie Ghoſt in the Church to teach her all truth. The Iewes, and Pagans, and heretikes, looke on Scripture; but they doe not vnderſtand it. The Church hath a Maſter the Holie Ghoſt, left to teach her; and by his helpe, doth vnderſtād. What need a Schoolemaſter, if your child doth by himſelfe vnderſtand his booke? or will you call it inſtruction, if he neuer tell him any thing, but what the child himſelfe knowes before? you knowe moreouer, that when the Controuerſie is about the Scripture, the written word; or, about the Apoſtles Creed; or generall tradition; aſſiſtance is neceſſarie: and alſo, for the ſence of Scripture, more then is by your definition, fundamentall. To omitt, that in your anſwer you allowe the Church no greater ſecuritie from errour, by the promiſed aſſiſtance, then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it: for, they dot not erre, if they followe Scripture, and iudge as it is there. So little is the diſcretion of this anſwer, and ſo ſmall a benefit, or rather no benefit you cō ceaue to be beſtowed in that faire promiſe. Whereas wee, beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word: he can, and will, make and bringe to paſſe, Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts. He writes his lawes in her heart; Ierem. 31. what hinders him? and keepes his words, Iſa. 59. in her mouth. He hath opened a Schoole, and put a Maſter in the chaire. Docebit ſaith he, he shall teach; and, if the leſsō be forgot, ſuggeret, Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe: he is not to ſtaie till men finde it of them ſelues; he is Maſter, and shall teach it.

Fiftlie, you ſaie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells, but no more. Yet more muſt be giuen to the holie Ghoſt, and in Councells He defineth. Viſum est Spiritui Sancto & nobis, Act. 15. were the words of the Councell, it ſeemeth good to the holie ghoſt and to vs; not to vs onlie, but to him, in himſelfe; and in vs, heere aſſembled, with his aſſiſtance (promiſed in caſes of this nature, and wee are certaine that he who promiſed will performe,) to decide a controuerſie: our act, is, his act;2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath ſeemed good. In S. Paul Chriſt ſpake; the Apoſtles words,1. Theſſ. 1. were acknowledged to be, and were indeed, the words of God; Luc 10. the holie Ghoſt ſpeakes in the Church; the definition is his: you muſt beleeue it; and, Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vſe S. Auguſtines words;S. Aug. ſuprà. there is no more doubt to be made of it.

In the concluſion of your diſcourſe you repeate againe what you ſaid in the beginning,Alij fatentur opus eſſe iudice loquente • e • homine. Volunt tamē poſſe ab eo prouocari in foro in • erno ſea conſcientiae. Si • Wittakerus &c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur, tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec diſtinctio fori: tum etiam quia pax Eccleſiae ſita eſt potiſsimum in foro interno, ſcilicet in fide; ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Eccleſiae, alioquin nunquam pax eſſet conſcientiae: tum praeterea quia praxis Eccleſiae in Concilio Apoſtolorum, & aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Eccleſiae habeat poteſtatem dirimendi lites in foro conſcientiae: tum demum quia ſi quis teneretur obedire iudicio Eccleſiae in foro externo & non in interno, teneretur aliquando ſilentio ſepelire veritatem Dei, eamque non confiteri coram hominibus, nempe ſi Eccleſia ſententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem. Accedit quod poteſtas Eccleſiae eſt ſpiritualis & in animas ipſas, ergo poteſtas illius iudicandi ſe extendit etiam ad forum internum. Reuerendiſſ. Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghoſt in vertue of our Sauiours promiſe made vnto the Church, attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne. The vanitie of which your pretence ſufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene anſwered to your exceptions in particular. You finde none that denies what wee beleeue. Yea thoſe whom you produce to ſpeake againſt vs, affirme it, conſtantlie. And who more Auncient in the ranck of Chriſtians, then the Apoſtles themſelues, whoſe teſtimonie you haue heard in our behalf. You haue beene told alſo that in Sainct Auguſtines daies the Catholikes vniuerſallie, and amongſt them the greatest ſchollers ſubmitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell: and this too, though the point ſo determined were neither fundamentall, nor found in Scripture. You shall finde alſo (as hath beene likewiſe inſinuated by occaſion of your diſcourſe) in the Councell of Chalcedon, ſix hundred Fathers together, acknowledging diuine aſſiſtance to the Nicene, ſo farre, that the Decrees, they ſaid, could not be retracted withoutSi ergo Spiritus Sāctus cō ſedit Patribus, vt manifeſte conſedit & ordinauit que ordinata ſunt, qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti caſſat gratiam. Sācta Synodus dixit, Omnes haec dicimus. Anathema qui retractat. Conc. Chalced. Acti. 1. making void the grace of the Holie Ghoſt. And others accordinglie ſaie they wereS. Leo, Epiſt. 53. & 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. diuinelie ordained, Si quis fidem illam à sācta & magna Synodo optimè & diuino afflatu definitā ac expoſitam, dicere voluerit baſim animarum noſtrarū, fundamentum que inconcuſſum & munitum, is vtique probatiſsime loquitur. Lib. 1. de Trinit apud Cyrill. Alexand. Suis autē verbis à nobis ſcribatur, diuinū & ſanctiſsimum Synodi illius Oraculum. Ibidē. Vide S. Ambroſ li. 1. de Fide, ad Gratian. oracles of faith. It ſufficeth to make inſtance in that one, being the firſt oecumenicall that was celebrated after the Apoſtles daies; to shewe that it ſtopped not in them, but was continued after their (the Apoſtles) time, vnto the Church. And in like manner it was affoorded afterwards to the ſecond, and the third, and fourth; the decrees of which li. 1 Regest. Epiſt. 24. Quintum quoque Concilium pariter ve • eror. Ibidem S. Gregorie, our Apoſtle, did honour as the Goſpels; and ſo alſo to the reſt; by vertue of one and the ſame Promiſe; made abſolutelie, to the Church. Vpon which promiſe that alſo of the Apoſtles did relie, as before hath been obſerued.

Moreouer the Fathers held, that the definitiōs of oecumenicall Coū cells might not be called into Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathema •• qui re • ractat. De rebus apud Nicaeā, & apud Chalcedonam definitis, nullū audemus inire tractatum, tanquā dubia vel infirma ſint, quae tanta per Spiritum ſanctū fixit authoritas. S. Leo epist. 78. vbi plura in eandem ſententiam. doubt; that they were rather to looſe theirS. Ambroſ. epiſt. 32. S. Hier. contra Luciferian. liues then to denie them; that thoſe who did oppugne them, wereNullo modo fieri poteſt vt q • i diuinis a • dent contradicere ſacramentis aliqua nobis communio • e ſocientur S. Epiſt 78. Pat • faciētes in omnibus & probantes non eſſe omnino inter Catholicos computandos, qui definitiones venerabilis Synodi Nicenae, vel ſancti Chalcedonēſis Concilij regulas nō ſequuntur. Ibidem. not Catholikes, butS. Auguſt. de Haereſ. nu 69. S. Baſil. epist. 78. S. Athanaſ. epiſt. ad Epict. Vincent. Lyri. c. 41. heretikes. And the Councels themſelues didConc Nice. Epheſin. &c. anathematize all, that reiected, or diſſented from them. Now by theſe anathematiſmes and excommunications; by the deepe cenſure, and branding with the note of Hereſie; by the deniall of the name of Catholike, to ſuch as did ſtubbornelie contradict oecumenicall definitions: by the knowne custome of the Paſtors, in all ages, and caſes of greateſt difficultie, (when ſoeuer they could with ſafetie meete in Councell,) to define ſub anathemate, and to oblige all to conformitie without further diſpute or doubt; (they being the men whom our Sauiour hath giuen to teach his people and eſtablish thē in the truth:) by the generall obedience of the Symbolicall or vniuerſall Church, in all times, to the Paſtors, ſo teaching; (manifeſted in their acceptation of ſuch Decrees, and conformable profeſsion of the faith:) by the eſteeme which holie Fathers had of Councells, whereof in Saint Auguſtine I gaue an inſtance, in the caſe of S. Cyprian, and, by the Apoſtles practice, in regard and contemplation of the promiſe; together with their reall interpretation of it: the meaning of thoſe words, The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth; and He gaue Paſtors and Doctors, that wee be not wauering or borne about with euerie winde of doctrine; is ſo diſcouered; and the tradition of aſsistance and direction, afforded to Councels oecumenicall, in their decrees of faith, ſo confirmed; that a weaker ſight then yours may diſcerne it.

You may further call to minde, that the Councels wherein the Controuerſies betwixt the Proteſtants and vs are defined, be receaued by the whole Church, and by it vniuerſallie approued. Wherefore, had any of thoſe you name, told you that an oecumenicall Councell might miſtake, and erre; the decrees of faith made in theſe Councels, as in that of Trent for example, had ſtill beene, according to their iudgment, notwithſtanding, to be admitted; becauſe the Vniuerſall Church, hath receaued and approued them. And you, oppoſing them, do oppoſe, not a Councell onlie, but the Catholike and Vniuerſall Church; and the Spirit in her, the Spirit of truth, remaining in, and with her, to teach her all truth.

That this is the Catholike Church, and not yours, nor the whole companie of ſuch as profeſſe themſelues Chriſtians as it includes both the Orthodox and Hereticks, you ſee proued and defendedDiſp. of the Church. elſwere. If your Spirit be diſpoſed to contradict it, bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles, all: men, purelie Orthodox according to the new ſtraine, without any defect or ſuperſtruction; whoſe tenents intirelie be

The Vniuerſalitie of the Church, and the long Communion of the Graecians and other Nations with it, is demonſtrated at large by C. Baronius in his Annals: and briefelie in the Diſputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. & 148.

By the Church thus Vniuerſall, in her flouriſhing time, the Neſtorian and Eutychean Hereſies, which made againſt the fundamentall articles of Chriſtianitie and the cōmon Creede, were you know, cōdemned: and ſuch as abbetted thē were cut of frō Cōmunion, lawfullie and oecumenicallie in the Councels of Epheſus and Chalcedon. Wherefore in the Catalogue which you are to make do not put vnder the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholike Communion, any Nations or People (howeuer great) approuing and maintaining either of theſe Errours. Such as were the Neſtorians, Armenians, Iacobites, Abaſsins, and Aegyptians or Cophti; as appeares by Photius, Damaſcen, Euthymius, Nicephorus, Prateolus, Guido, Baronius, Miraeus, Godignus, and others.

Neither can you challeng them as yours when they were re-vnited to the Church and See of Rome, as the Grecians, Armenians and others were in the Councell of Florence, (Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius, Platina; Chalcondas, Gordonus. See alſo Miraus, Not. Epiſc. li. 1. c. 18.) but you muſt finde a time when they neither held with vs, nor abbetted either of the foreſaid Hereſies; but were entirelie Proteſtant or Orthodox in your ſence. And the Catalogue muſt repreſent vnto vs in all Ages ſome of theſe, ſo many as may challeng from all other Communities the title of the Catholike and Vniuerſall Church.

If you looke vpon the whole aggregation of Chriſtian Churches that euer were in the world before Luther, you shall finde the Societie of beleeuers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controuerſie the greateſt and moſt Vniuerſall. And, that Arians, Neſtorians, Iacobites, Armenians, and others going out of it to ſubſiſt by themſelues, neuer could arriue any of them, to that Vniuerſalitie.

Where you will finde or feigne your Proteſtāt more Vniuerſall Congregation, or of what kind of men or what fantoms rather it doth conſiſt, wee shall know when your deſcriptiō of the Spaces Imaginarie comes out in print. What is to be obſerued in the drawing of your Catalogue hath beene partlie told you in the Diſp. lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. & 4.

currant there, and iuſtified by you their children: and this continuallie, euer ſince the Apoſtles daies; with Paſtors, lawfullie ordained. Proue that yours was, and that ours was not the Church which hath celebrated Councels, condemned Hereſies, conuerted Nations, &c. Meane while (and euer, for this taske will be neuer donne,) wee do ſecurelie ſubſcribe to the Decrees of Councels oecumenicall, approued and receaued generallie by that Cōmunitie, out of which your Father Luther, went: and do not doubt at all, to imboſome our ſelues in that Church, which, by Succeſsiōs of Bishops frō the See Apoſtolike, hath, euen to the acknowledgment and confeſsion of mankind, obtained the top of Authoritie; Hereticks in vaine barking round about, and condemned; partlie by the iudgment of the very multitude or common people, partlie by the grauitie of Councels, and partlie by the maieſtie of miracles. To which Church not to giue the prize, it is verilie, either extreame impietie, or foole-hardie preſumption.