HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly cōtriued, may seme to be framed, in respect of the sclaun­derous priuiledged pamphletts, heretofore dispersed through the whole land, by the enemies of Christ & suppressors of all righteousnes, to bring vs in contempt with all men; yet if we consider the end, & more sereously vvay the present drift of theis BBs, theire priests, and new reconciled Reformists, set a worke in this busines, we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud. For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles, haue allso togeather vvith them constituted & commaunded certai­ne theire priests, twise euery weeke, during this Lent, to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination, or auriculer confes­sion, to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts; vvhose testimonie & verdict of suborned vvitnesses, they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites; vve in the meane tyme not suffred, eyther to set downe owre ovvne positions, neyther before equall vvytnesses to ansvver or discouer theire false alle­gations. Wherfore vve thought it good (being all close pryso­ners) to relate vnto all men that desire the truth, ovvre simple iudgments in theis doctrines, vvherat they thus snarrle; vve re­sting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferēt vvitnesses set dovvne & recorded, if vve might obteine the same vppon the dispence of ovvre lyues; yea the God of heauen knovveth, hovv vvilling & ready vve are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing vvherin vve err, vvhen it shalbe shevved vs by the booke of God.

First then vnderstand, that theis accusers affirme theis to be ovvre positions, vvhich they haue framed of theire ovvne braine, vvithout ovvre knovvledg, much lesse cōsent. Secondly they pronunce vs nevve sectories, although vve hold no other thing in iudgment or practize, more then Christ & his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures, and cōfirmed by theire exam­ples & deathes; And vvhether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lavves & ordinances, fetched from Rome, or deui­sed by themselues, be novv to be holden nevve doctrines, let all men consider. Thirdly they call vs Recusants, hauing neither forsaken the fellovvship of the true Church or least member of [Page] Christ that vvalketh in the Communion of the faith, submyt­ting himself to be guyded by Christs lavves & ordinances, nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs. Only vve, according to the Commandment of God, haue forsakē all sprirituall fellovv­ship vvith theire false Church, as also the inuetions & popery, yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery & confused Babell, euen that vvorld of vvickednes; Out of vvhich the Lord dravve fourth all his elected.

Mr. Hutchchinson said he came by vertue of Commission in her Ma^ts. name, to confer &c.

I denying to make answere to anie thing, vntill I might haue in­different vvitnesse by, & the matter to be vvritten downe, obtei­ned to haue pen & ynke, & Mr. Calthrop a gentleman & pryso­ner to be vvitnes. I desired Mr. Hutch. to set downe the end of his comming, & I vvould make answere thereunto; vvhereup­pon he vvrote vvith his owne hand to this effect.

Memorandum, that I Mr. Huthchinson being desired by Mr. Greenwood to set downe the end of my comming, shew it him to be by vertue of commission, yet not to examine him, or anie vvay to hurt him, but to confer vvith him about his seperating of himself from the Church of England, if I might reduce him &c.

I Iohn Greenwood not desiring Mr. Hutchinson his com­ming, yet am most vvilling of anie Christian conference, vvhere it shall be free asvvell to oppose as ansvvere, & on both sides the matter to be recorded in vvriting. The cause that I vvill not othervvise reason, is, for that I haue bene vvickedly sclaūdered, & our cause falsly reported by Do. Some & others &c.

Mr. Hutchinson then brought forth certaine articles of theire collections, reading them vnto me; Also he shevved me Do▪ Somes sclauderous booke, vvhere he turned to the positions the author had falsly affirmed to be ours. Hauing read his Arti­cles, he demaunded vhether I approued or disalovved of them: To the Articles I said they vvere theyre ovvne collectiōs & not ours; And as for Mr. Somes booke, it vvas full of lyes & sclaun­ders; But I vvilled him, if he vvould confer, to set dovvne some position vnder his hand, vvhich I vvould assent vnto, or els dis­proue. Still he vvould haue me to ansvvere some of those arti­cles &c. But at length he vvilled me to set dovvne some cause whie I would not come to theire Church; vvhereuppō I vvorte thus.

[Page]To this he first answered, that if the parish assemblies were a false Church, then euery member thereof was a member of the false Church, which were dāgerous for me to affirme; I desired him first to denye or affirme, the argument being generall, & after infer what it pleased him; at last he made this answere in writing with his owne hand.

Your vnsufficient Argument hath 2. defaults in it. 1. the se­quell of your Argument is not true; 2. Your first assertion can­not be prooued.

I will replie vppon your second exception, as order requireth. That Your parish assemblies consist of all sortes of profane peo­ple &c. is thus proued. ‘They vvere all by the blovving of her Maiesties trumpet at her coronai [...] in one day receaued vvithout conuersion of life by faith & repentance, & they & theyr seede euer since generallie receaued to your sacrament vvithout anie seperation from the vvorld; Therfore they novv consist of all sorts of profane.’

Most of them are now departed by death, which then were [...] receaued.

Therfore I included their seede to stand in the same estate no seperated from the world, & so could not be [...] a people cal­led out.

I know not what you meane by seperation.

You know what [...] BADAL signifieth, & as light is sepe­rated from darknes, so must the Church from the profane.

What meane you by profane?

Atheists, men without the knowledg or feare of God, togea­ther with the papists, hereticks, & all other infidells. Answere I pray you directly to myne Argument.

So he began with long circumstances to write, I perfectly re­member not what words, but to this effect.

Mr. Greenwood affirmeth, that because the people were con­uerted from poperie by her Maiesties trumpet at her coronatiō, therfore they consist of all sorts of profane, with certaine such like words.

You falsefie my former Arg. & make no sufficient or direct answere to it; Answere directly.

The Church of England receaueth none to their sacraments but such as make publike declaration of their faith; therfore consisteth not of, or alloweth any profane people &c. Heere we had much to doe about declaration of faith, He said they in euerie assemblie had a general confession of sin, & other con­fessions of faith, & so were not to be called profane. To which [Page] I answered the papists also had their confessions, as the Creed & Pater noster, which they repeated daily in their meetings, yet could they not for that verball confession be accompted the true Church.

Mr. Hutchinsō said the popish Church was the Church, though with manie corruptions; & when I demanded whither the true Church or no, he said they were the Church of God. To which I answered if yt were not the true Church, yt was the Church of the deuill: At which they were displeased I should iudg so vn­charitablie. Well, still I denied theyr saying ouer their seruice to be a true & sufficient confession to make them Christians, affirming they might teach such a verball confession to a parrat.

Wil you iudg mens harts? euen their godfathers doe make a confession for their infants.

That is euen such confession as the rest, a babling ouer certayne words without knowledg; Neither can there anie cō ­fession be made for infants, but in mockerie. I iudg not their hearts, but I know they are not able to giue accompt of anie faith, except the verball repeating certayne words taught them by rote. But I will answere your former obiection. ‘Your parish assemblies neuer published their conuersion of life vvith knovvledg & fruites of repentance, seeing they had no doctrine to call them before they vvere all vvithout exception receaued; yet are all they & their seed of your Church; therfore you receaue and allovve the profane &c.’

This Argment is not fullie set downe, because Mr. Hutchin­son tooke vp the paper, neither was yt awnswered.

Whiles I was writing this last position, Mr. Huth▪ was dilating from the 3 of Mathew, how Ihon Baptist receaued them that came to his baptisme with small confession, & no knowledg of their former life; yea that the Phariseis & Saduceis were bapti­sed &c. also the Eunuch verie speedily &c.

You falsifie the text, & deceaue the people; where can you proue that the Phariseis & Saduceis were baptised of Ihon?

Heerupon Mr. Hutchinson turned to the 3 of Math, & began at the 5 verse to read Then vvent out to him Ierusalem & al Iudea; & they vvere baptised of him, confessing their sinnes.

Were all Iudea & they of Ierusalem baptised?

No, none but they that cōfessed their sines were baptiz.

This maketh against your self that none were receaued to Ihons baptisme but such as confessed their sins, for with you all the world is receaued as membres of your Church, & theyr seed baptised. Heere he would haue made the people be­leeue I would haue none receaued to the Doctrine of the [Page] Church, but they which vvere alreadie called, I told him he must put difference betwixt the hearing of doctrine, & recea­uinge to be a member of the Church, & to the sacraments. He demanded vvhome I accompted a member of the Church. I said such as both by vvord & practise ioined themselues (in the seruice of God) into the fellowship of the true Church &c. Then he demanded vvherin the seruice of God consisted; I said in the vvhole obedience of his vvil: he yet demanded vvherin chieflie &c. I answered I would not be catechized, but desired him to bring some more euidēt profe that the Phariseis & Sa­duces vvere baptised. He said the vvhole chapter proued yt; I desired him to draw some one argument from some one verse: so he began againe & read the 7 verse.

Novv vvhen he savv manie of the Phariseis & Saduces come to his baptisme, he said vnto them, Generations of vipers vvho hath forvvarned you &c. Againe in the 11. verse Iohn said In deed I baptize you, vnto amendement of life &c. First (saith he) they vvere forwarned to flee from the vvrath to come 2 they came to his baptisme 3 the text saith Ego baptizo vos &c. all these proue they were baptised.

In that he calleth them generatiōs of vipers, yt is euident they obeied not his forewarning, neither vvere baptised. 2. their comming to his baptisme proueth not that they vvere baptized, 3 that same Ego baptizo vos is not referred to them: so that euerie vvay you haue falsly made cohaerence in the text; whervppon he vvilled me to read yt.

I then tooke the booke, & breeifly collected from the vvhole discourse thus; Ierusalem & all Iudea came to Ihons ministerie & all that confessed their sinnes vvere baptised; But when he-saw the Phariseis & Saduces come vnto his baptisme, he called them Generations of vipers, and therfore baptised them not. For this disiunctiue sentence but vvhen he savv the Pharises &c. sheweth an exception, that he baptised not all that came to him in the vvildernes, neither vvould he haue called them genera­tions of vipers, if he had baptized them. Abowt these matters we had much adoe, vvhich because his next cōming vvas onlie to cauill about the same, I will refer yt to our second cōference.

It must be remembred that Mr. Hutchinson made promise to me to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church vvhen he came againe. Further remember, that these matters about the Phariseis & Saduces, baptisme vvere not written, & these posi­tions & awnsweres which were written, Mr. Hutch: would needs carrie them avvay, & vvould neither haue the vvitnesses to keep them, or me euer to see them or consider of them. And [Page] through I though much a doe had gottē him to giue them into the vvitnesses hands, yet so soone as I vvas gon & lockt vp, Mr. vvardens man vvas sent to the gentleman for them, vvhoe denijng to deliuer them without our consents, Mr. Hutch: sent the Archb: his pursyuant for them, which Mr. Hutch: the last day of our conference denied in the presence of manie gentle­men. So that either the Pursuyuant Watson made a lie, or els Mr. Hutch; cannot be excused. But for that which I haue vvrit­ten, I refer yt to the vvitnesses for the truth therof, yea the posi­tions & answeres to the vvriting vvwhich M^r. Hutchinson hath kept from me.

THe 17 day of the 3 moneth I was sent for out of my cham­ber, & brought into the porters lodg in the Fleet, where I found Mr. Hutchinson, & one whose name I after vnderstood to be D. Bright; These 2 were closely locked in that no mā might heare our conference, onely one of Mr. vvardens men, besides my keeper came in; so soone as I was come & willed to sit downe with them, M. Hutchinson began to make rehearsall of one point of our former conference, to this effect.

Mr. Greenwood, you know the last time that I was with you, I prooued vnto you that Ihon Baptist receaued to his baptisme the Phariseis & the Saduces, mētioned in the 3 of Math. which you did not agree vnto. The proofes that I brought were manie. First the text saith they came to his baptisme. 2. he saith I baptise you &c. How stand you yet minded in this point, proceding further to repeate mine answeres, but I brake yt of, & made replie.

It is verie true that we dissented in this doctrine, & I disproo­ued all your alligations then brought to prooue that they were baptised; I will not stand now to call into question our cōference then had; only for that this was not then set downe in writing, I beseech you if you remaine still of minde that they were bapti­sed, set yt downe vnder your hand, & I will either assent vnto yt, or denie yt for iust cause.

I will doe so, but if you will denie yt, set downe your denial.

So I will when I see what you will affirme. Then M^r. Hutch­inson willed the wardens man to write thus.

Mr. Hutchinson saith that Ihon Baptist did baptise the Phari­sies & Saduces mētioned in the 3 of Mathew, vvhome he calleth generations of vipers.

Mr. Greenwood he saith that Ihon Baptist did not admit the Phariseis & Saduces vvhome he there calleth generations of vipers to his baptisme.

It is expressed in the text that they came to be baptised, be­cause the text saith they came to his baptisme.

I denie the sequele of your argument, & your collection from the text I affirme to be vntrulie gathered, for ad baptismum is not ad baptizandos, that is, to be baptised.

They came to his baptisme & he repulsed them not, what is this but that they were baptised.

Baptisme is there vnderstood for Ihons whole mini­stration, not onlie of the seale of baptisme, but of his doctrine also.

Then they came to Ihons whole ministerie, therfore to his baptisme, seing his baptisme was a part therof.

Alter not the question, I know they came to see all, as vnworthy nearers & seers: but you must prooue that they were baptised.

They came to be baptised, did they not?

This is not the question, neither can you prooue that they came therfore, I told you the last day Manie came to see a reed shaken with the winde, some to cauill, & not to be either instructed or baptised; But you must prooue that they were baptised, els you say nothing.

I will take him in his owne words & wrap them vp to­geather; & thus he began to write with his owne hand.

M^r. Hutchinson replieth that the words Ad baptismum suum cannot be otherwise vnderstood since that the exhortations follownig doth plainly declare they did offer themselues to be baptised, & he doth not bring yt to prooue that they were baptised, but to force M^r. Greenw: to shew whither they were expulsed by Ihon, cōsidering they made offer of themselues. If [...] may not be vnderstood of baptisme, but of the other part of Ihons ministerie, which was teaching & exhortation, as M^r. Greenwood supposeth, then [...].

You falsifie the scriptures, wrest my words, denie your former affirmation, & seeke by al meanes to intangle by set­ting on foote new questions; I haue often prooued vnto you that their comming vnto Ihons ministerie as vnworthy behol­ders, did not prooue they vvere baptised, neither did I say that ad babtismum suum was vnderstood onlie of his doctrine but of his whole in ministerie, wherof his baptisme was a part, yet they were not baptised for coming to see him; & where you say you brought yt not to prooue they were baptised, yt is ma­manifestlie vntrue, both by this & our former conference; Againe till you haue prooued that they were baptised, you say nothing.

Mr. Hutchinson prooueth that they were baptised, be­cause Ihon saith afterward Ego baptizo vos

These words Ego baptizo vos are not spoken to those Pharifeis & Saduces, but generallie to such as Ihon baptised, for yt followeth he that cometh after me &c. shall bap­tise you with fire and the holie ghost Luke. 3. Verses 15.16. which can­not be solely referred to the Phariseis, though they had beene [Page] baptised, but this is a summe of a seuerall doctrine.

Ihon Baptist in his exhortation saith vnto them vvho hath forwar­ned you to flye from the vvrath to come &c. this sheweth they came to baptised.

Still you would alter the question, neither doth this prooue that they were baptised, or yet that they did repent; But rather on the contrarie Ihon publisheth their obstinacie to all the people & threatneth them with the iudgments of god.

They might repent vpon his exhortation, & so be babtised.

There is no mention that they did repent.

Yes these words which Mr. Hutchinson repeated Ego baptizo vos proueth yt.

I haue often shewed that those words are not spoken to them but to all such as were baptised by Ihon &c.

Ihon Baptist knew none of their conuersations before or after therfore he stirred them vp to bring forth fruite worthy repen­tance, not that he see their fruites; & so me thnikes this & that re­ceauing of the Eunuch to baptisme so sodainlie, doth teach vs, not to debar anie from the sacramēts whatsoeuer their life hath beene, yea though we knew yt not, they offring themselues & making declaration of faith.

In the true Church none can be debarred from the sacramēts that make with knowledg true confession of their sins, & pro­mise obedience to the word of God, & to be ordered by Christs ordinances; but I see no such confession made by these Pharises neither yet by your communicantes. As for the Eunuche we shall shew an other manner of confession then the verball repe­tition of certaine words vsed in your Church.

Why, doe you thinke our people haue not made a true con­fession of their sins, & promised amendment publikelie? &c.

No your parish assemblies were neuer receaued into the true faith to submit themselues vnto Christs ordinances by true cō ­fession with knowledg & vnderstanding, for that confession they made or make, is but a verbal repetition of words as one might teach a parrat.

Some doe vnderstand what they say though all doe not; will you forsake the Church because some are ignorant?

Neither doe those that vnderstand what they say bring forth fruits, neither are they seperated from the vnbeleebers, neither is that confession of words which anie of you haue made a suf­ficient confession to make you a Church, but the most part are Atheists & know not what they say.

What haue none of vs made a true confession of faith, I neuer heard the whole profession we make denied before, neither that [Page] the most part doe not know what they professe, though I grant there be some such.

No, not with amendment of life; For you remaine one bodie with the infidels, & denie in deed the true profession & practise of the gospell, & subiect your selues to the popish Courtes & Cannons. Heere we brake of in some displeasing wordes, I desiring D. Bright to write, if he would reason order­ly; He said he came but to beare Mr. Hutchinson companie. Then I demanded of Mr. Hutchinson if he had brought all his proofes he had to prooue that the Phariseis mentioned in the 3 of Mathew were baptised, he said yea, I said then I would op­pose what reason I had to proue the contrarie; he said yt was preposterous, yet he was contēt &c. so I set downe two reasons thus.

In the 7 Chap. of Luke the 30. verse the holy ghost set­teth downe that those Scribes & Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were not baptised, 2. that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generations of vipers whome he receaued to his baptisme.

The place of Luke is not to be vnderstood of those Pha­riseis mentioned Math. 3.

Yes, the verie doctrine yt self of our Sauiour Christ going before in the 7 of Luke is euident to be drawen from their contempt of Ihons ministerie Math. 3.

Nichodemus beleeued & manie other of the Phariseis.

Thats not the question. The questiō is whether the Pha­riseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were baptised by Ihon or no; Luke saith they were not baptised of him.

I will answere that of Luke, & take him in his owne wordes; so he wrote with his owne hand thus.

M^r. Hutchinson saith the 7. of Luke doth not prooue that these Phariseis mentioned Math. 3. or that none of the Phariseis were baptised. The argument drawen from that place is of ma­nie particulars, & the place of Luke is not generally but indefi­nitely conceiued.

Againe wheras Greenwood prooueth by the 7. of Luke, that the Scribes & Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Math. came not to be baptised or (vvhich is the other part or Ihons ministerie) to heare his doctrine, but to gaze on him, & to see him as a specta­cle, yt is contrarie to the words of Math. 3. ad baptismum suum; And therfore the Phariseis mentioned in the 7 of Luke cannot be vnderstood of the Phariseis Math. 3.

To the other, that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them gene­ratiō of vipers, though yt need no answere, yet yt is false because [Page] [...] [Page] [...] [Page] Christ calleth Peter Sathan, & his Disciples men of litle faith, & an vnfaithful nation, Paule the Galatians Insensaios. &c.

Whiles I was about to write myne answere to these things, Mr. Hutchinson would needs be gone, promising againe at his next cōming to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church: so I was constrained to set downe myne answere after-wards, which is this. Our sauiour Christ in the of Luke setteth downe two sorts of people which came to Iohns ministerie, the one of such as heard & obeid his doctrine, & were baptised, the other of such as heard & saw, but obeid not his doctrine, neither were baptised: Of which sort chiefly the Scribes & Phariseis are note vnrepētant despisers; Therfore I meruell Mr. Hutchinson could so falsifye my words to excuse himself of open error, & affirme that I should say the Phariseis did not heare but onlie gaze vpon him, seing I said they did heare but did not obey neither were baptised. Further in the 7 of Luke, our Saviour speaking inde­finitelie & generallie of Ihons ministerie, & of the Phariseis contempt, & that they were not baptised of him, yt were open contradiction to say they were baptised, & iniurie to the holie ghost except you can shew by expresse words that some of them were baptised by Ihon. As for Nichodemus, he was not called to the faith by Ihon, much lesse baptised by him. To the last point, Mr. Hutch. his examples of Christs reproof of Peter, or of his other Disciples &c. as also Paules reprehensiō of the Galathi­ans, doth rather confirme my former assertions them infringe yt, seing they were reprooued for the present cōmitting & stan­ding in sin, & not vpon their repentance. So that still I affirme yt were contrarie to all the scriptures to call them generations of vipers, who had publikelie made confession of their sin, till they againe transgressed, wherof there is no mention either of their conuersion or transgressing after the confession of these Phari­seis Math. 3. But at the first this controuersie might haue beene ended with this, that Ihon receaued none to be baptised, but such as were wonne by doctrine, & made publike confession; So that either the Phariseis were not baptised, or els they repented: & thē heere is no shelter for Mr. Hutchinsons euasiō, to prooue by then example that all the lād might in one day be receiued to their sacraments at the beginning of her Ma^ts. reigne, without knowledg & true conuersiō, & so remaine a Church of Atheists & idolaters euer since. God call forth his elect from this fel­lowship.

THey being set downe in the parlor with one gentleman whō they brought with them & three of theire owne seruants, I being entered and come vnto them, they desired me to sit downe with thē, and that we might all be couered &c. I demaunded to what end.

Your Chamberfellow Mr. Greenwood hath told you the cause of owr comming.

He told me that some had bene with him yesternight, But told me not the cause of your comming vnto me this day.

We come to the same end▪ to confer brotherly with you cōcerning certaine positions that you are sayd to hold. Hauing Some his booke & certaine articles of the Bishops before him.

I desire nothing more then Christiā cōference, but hauing bene 2 yeares & well nye an half kept by the Bishops in close prysō, could neuer as yet obteine anie such cōferēce, where the Booke of God might peaceablie decide all owr controuersies.

Whie the Booke of God cānot speake, which way should that decide owr controuersies?

But the spirit of God can speake, and which way is that spi­rit tryed or discerned but by the word of God?

But the spirits of men must be subiect vnto men, will you not subiect your spirit to the iudgment of men?

The spirit of the prophets must be subiect to the prophets, yet must the prophets iudg by the word of God. And for me I willingly submit my whole faith to be tryed & iudged by the word of God, of all men.

All men cannot iudge, who then shal iudge of the word?

The word, and let euery one that iudgeth take hede that he iudge aright therby. vvisdome is iustified of her Children.

This sauoreth of a pryuat spyrit.

This is the spirit of Christ & his Apstles, & moste publi­que they submitted theire doctrines to the triall of all men by the word, So do I.

What are you an Apostle?

No, but I haue the spirit of the Apostles.

What, the spirit of the Apostles?

Yea the spirit of the Apostles.

What, in that measure?

In that measure that God hath imparted vnto me, though not in that measure that the Apostles had by anie comparison, yet the same spirit. There is but one spirit.

Well, you will confer then, and we come to confer with you if you vvill.

I am most willing of anie conference that may be to the glory of God and owr edefying.

Well let vs go to it then. What say you to these propositions? Hauing the Bishops articles, & Somes booke in his hand.

For Somes booke I disclaimed it, and sayd the mā had great­ly iniured me: For anie propositions that I hold I was desirous to set downe myne owne propositiōs, and neuer required either the BB^s. or Do. Some to set them downe for me.

I was at the great Commission a yeare agoe, where you did set downe with your owne hand your owne answeres.

Then did you see the Bishops offer me the greatest wronge that I suppose was euer offred to anie Christian in anie age. I was brought out of my close pryson & cōpelled there to answere of the sodaine vnto such articles as the Bishops in theire secret Councell had contriued against vs. I could not be admitted anie furder respire or consideration, neither anie present conference with anie of my bretheren, neither yet so much as a Copie of myne owne answers, though I most earnestly & humblie be­sought the same, but haue euer since bene kept in most streight emprisonment without companie, ayre, or comfort, neuer hea­ring of anie kinde of conference vntill now; But haue in the meane vvhile bene greuouflie sclandered, blasphemed and ac­cused, by sparsed articles, printed priuiledged books, in theire pulpets, in open Session, and vnto owre honorable maiestrats.

We will not heare your complaints because we cānot redresse your complaints.

For close emprisonment you are most happie: The solitarie & contemplatiue life I hold the most blessed life; It is the life I would chuse.

You speake philosophically but not Christianly. So sweete is the harmonie of Gods graces vnto me in the congregation, and the conuersation of the Saints at all tymes, as I think my self as a sparrow on the howse toppe when I am exiled from them. But could you be content also M^r. Androes to be kept from exercise & ayre so long togeather? These are also necessarie to a naturall bodye.

I say not that I would want ayre. But who be those Saincts you speake of, where are they?

They are euen those poore Christiās whom you so blaspheme [Page] & persequote, and now most vniustly hold in your prysons.

But where is theire Congregation?

Though I knew I purposed not to tell you.

They are a companie of Sectories as you also are.

Know you vvhat a Sectorie is?

I know you to be Sectories & Schismaticks.

What both? It should seeme you know not what a Sectory is. But it is euident that your Church is deeply set, both in Schisme & apostacye.

A Sectory & Schismatick are both one.

That is not so. A Schismatick is euer cut from the Church, a Sectory is not so.

They are both one, and come indifferently of the word [...] scindo findo.

There is difference betwixt [...] and [...] a schisme and an heresie; the one signifying election the other a rent. But I neuer heard of anie difference betwixt a Schisme & a sect, both com­ming of one word.

Though they both come of one roote, yet is not a Schisme and a Sect all one. Here they would needs haue a greeke Dictio­nary & greatly wished it. So I sent for scapula, which being fetch­ed, did not satisfie vs concerning this point.

Secta in latine is the same that [...] in greeke.

I denie that; There is difference betwene a Sect and a Schisme.

Secta coms of seco to cut, and [...] of [...] to cut, what difference.

I take the vse of the word Secta, rather to be of sequor to fol­low, because Secta a Sect signifieth via, a way, and great diffe­rence appeareth in the Scriptures betwixt a Schismaticke & a Sectory. A Sectory is allways in the Church, a Schismaticke allwayes out of the Church.

Where finde you this in the Scriptures?

I finde it 1. Cor. 3. and Hebr. 10. In the one place Sectories, in the other Schismaticks described.

The Sectories 1. Cor. 3. are Schismaticks.

That cannot be; they were cheif teachers of, & in the Church of Corinth, where the Apostle reproueth them because some held of, & followed one teacher, some of an other, as if one had held of Paul another of Apollos.

There contentions are called [...].

What of that; yet you see these were Sectories, and Schis­maticks are they which haue cut thēselues from the Church Hebr. 10. by leauing the fellowship.

1 Cor. 11. The Apostle saith that Schismes are amongst [Page] them, Therfore in the Church.

What is that to the purpose; I hope you will not say that he cā be a Schismatick vntill he haue rent himself frō the Church. There shalbe heresies & Schismes in the Church, yet no here­ticke or Schismaticke vntill they be eyther cōuinced & remaine obstinate, or else haue cut themselues from the Church, by for­saking the fellowship.

Augustine saith that an heretick breaketh the faith, a Schisma­tick charitie.

A Schismatick also breaketh the faith, by departing from the communion of the Church.

A Schismatick may depart from the Church, and yet hold the faith.

They cannot hold the faith which forsake the fellowship of the faith.

You speake ignorantly; sondry Schismaticks haue not erred.

I speake truly & as the holy ghost speaketh in the last verse of the 10. to the Hebr. But vve are not of the vvithdravving vnto destruction, but of faith to the conseruation of our soule. Here you see the keeping of the faith, set opposite against the departing from the fellowship.

Loking vppon my Testament [...] vvithdrawing. What is this to Schisme, The place you would alledge is higher vp in the Chapter.

This is the place which I would now alledge, what say you vnto it, is not that withdrawing from the fellowship Schisme? Can anie with-draw frō the fellowship and yet kepe the faith? is there anie saluation out of the Church, of saluation without faith?

What is there none but a true faith, neuer read you of anie other?

Yet acknowledg I but one faith▪ as there is but one God &c. which faith no Schismatick can haue; and as for this false faith, Deuills & hereticks may also haue such faith: But you will not say that an heretick doth hold the faith, neither yet doth a Schismatick hold the faith.

Do not hipocrits make a shew of faith and yet they haue no faith? what faith is theirs?

There is no comparison betwixt hipocrits & Schismaticks, the one whilest he stadeth making shew of the true faith both by life & profession, so far as we can iudge; the other making open breach of faith. But after the hipocrite is once discouered, I say then he also appeareth to haue no faith.

These are but [...], strife about words; shal we begyn to reason to some purpose.

If we may haue indifferent notaries that may iustly set downe what passeth on ech side,These spe­ches vvere at the be­ginning of our con­ference vvhich my me­morie ser­ueth not place aright. so that we may eyther of vs haue a copie therof, the better to expend & consider of ech others reasons, I am very willing at anie tyme or place so to reason.

Here is one that can write: and called one of his men.

He is no such wryter as I would haue. Furder I would haue some witnesses, because you are two, & I am but one.

Rather then that shall be a hinderance I will goe vp & reason with Mr. Greenwood, and leaue you two togeather.

That is not my meaning, I had rather you taried still. Only because you are two & I but one, therfore your testimonie may the rather be taken against me.

Ynke & paper being brought, and manie entred into the Par­lor, we were first to set downe & agree of a Prop. which after much discourse to & fro, M. Hutch. set downe after this maner

The parish Church of S^t. Bride is a true Church, to which anie Christian may ioyne in theire publique prayers and Sacraments as they are by lawe now established.

The Parish of your S^t. Bride, as it consisteth of a confuse multitude of all sorts of people, mingled togeather in one bo­dy, standing vnder a false ministerye in Idolatry & disorder, is not a true established Church of Christ, and therfore not such as anie true Christian ought to ioyne vnto in theire prayers & Sacraments, as they stand in this estate.

Here Mr. Andros moued that seing the question was agreed vp­pon, & the time now far spent, we might depart vntill an other tyme: But I seing much companie gotten in, and nothing more heard against me then this propositiō, desired them to say som­what vnto it in that tyme that remayned.

First therfore Mr. Androes found much fault with my proposi­tion, as disordered & vnlearnedly set downe, and therfore de­serued no answere. I sayd that if it were true it suffised me, and vnlesse they could disproue it it must still stand in force against them. Here we had also much adoe about owr order of reaso­ning, whither it should be after their schole maner, by Logicke or no. I desired to reason after a Christiā maner, according vnto truth, though not in logicall formes, where after some discourse of the necessitie & vanitie of the arte of logicke, I said I would not bynde the maiestie of the Script. to logicall formes, where­about we should haue more vaine cauilles, and spēd more tyme, thē about the discussing of the question; and that my cōscience could neither be conuinced or instructed with anie syllogismes so much as with the weight of reason & force of truth.

[Page]Wherefore at length they condiscending vnto me, denied with one consent my whole proposition as false & vntrue.

I also denied theire proposition as altogeather false, and willed them to make profe of it. But still vrdging me to proue myne, I condiscended so to doo.

In my generall propositiō are cōteined fower principall heads. Namely, 1. The cōfuse commixture of al sorts of people. 2. Theire antichristian & vnlawfull ministerye, 3 Theire false & idolatrous maner of worshipping of God, and of theire whole ministration both of the word and Sacraments &c. 4. And theire popish & antichristian order & ecclesiasticall gouernmēt. From all which seuerall heads infinite reasons may be drawne. But because all these cannot be handled at once, I will begyn with some one of them. And as order requireth (if it please you) I will begin to shew that this people, as they stand in these parishes in this con­fusion &c. are not in this estate capable of the Sacramēts & mi­nistery of Christ.

Order requireth that you should rather begin to disproue owr ministerie first.

There must be sheepe before there be a flocke, A flocke before there be a shepheard.

A flocke & a Shepheard are relatiues.

There must be a flocke before there can be a shepheard, be­cause the people must chuse the Pastor.

That is a deuise of yours.

Will you call the Commandement of Christ my deuise?

Your whole proposition is denied, proue that.

My proposition being so large I must begyn with some one part therof; I will first therfore begin with the people of this parish.

Arg. 1. The people of this parish are a confuse companie of Infidells, Idolatort, igno­rant, prophane & open vvicked; Therfore no such communion to vvhich a Christian my ioyne in theire prayers & sacraments in this estate.

Infidells, what Infidels? Know you what Infidells are?

I take them to be vnbeleiuers, such as haue no true faith.

What because they haue no true faith, therfore Infidells?

Yea because they haue no true faith, therfore vnbeleeuers or Infidells.

We receaue no infidells into owr Church, if you meane by In­fidells [...] without faith.

I meane by Infidells, men without faith, [...].

What, know you what [...] is here, it is [...] priuatiue.

And so I vnderstand it; men distitute of faith.

Can you put no difference betwixt Infidells & Idolaters, what thinke you the Papists to be Infidells?

I know the word infidell to be more large, yet hold I all Ido­laters infidells, and the Papists infidells, because such grosse Idolaters.

We thinke more reuerently of the Papists thē so, though they be Idolaters.

But Moses & Paul think so of all Idolaters, though Israeli­tes, though Iewes, though Apostataes; Saying that what they offer they offer vnto Deuills. Leuit. 17. Deut. 12. 1 Cor. 10.

Will you call hipocrits, Infidells? Because we receaue some hypocrits, therfore Infidells?

Hipocrits whilest they make & hold the same profession and faith with vs cannot by vs be discerned, or iudged by the Church, vntill the Lord furder discouer them, by breaking out into some error or transgression. But infidells are such as eyther are neuer come, or are fallen from the faith; Of which sort I affirme all the people as they thus stand in your parishes to be.

We denie that, proue it.

They stand one with the world, vncalled forth vnto the faith. Therefore they are such.

Wat new phrase is this, stande one? what meane you by stande one?

The phrase is not new but vsual through all the Scriptures. I meane by standing one with the world, that they remaine one body with the world & the world with them, vncalled forth vnto the faith &c.

We denie it: they stand not one with the world.

I thus proue it. They stande one vvith this vvhole land, & vvith all the vvicked & abhominable persons thereof, Therfore they stand one vvith the vvorld.

We denie both the Antecedent & consequent.

In prouing the land to be of the world, the Consequēt will of necessitie followe.

We denie this land to be of the world.

That land & people that are not truly called out & gathe­red vnto Christ are still of the world. For owr sauiour saith vn­to his Disciples I haue chosen you out of the vvorld &c. Ioh. 15. But this land hath not as yet bene truly called out & gathered vnto Christ, Therfore it is of the world and the world of it. For I am [Page] sure it is neither holyer not better then Israell & Iudea were at the comming of owr Sauiour.

Our land is truly called & gathered vnto Christ, and so are the people of this parish.

Christs Church allwayes consisteth of a holy free people, seperat from the vvorld, rightly called & gathered vnto Christ, vvalking forth in faith & obedience; But the people of this Parish and generally of the land haue not as yet bene thus se­perate from the vvicked of the land, neither as yet bene thus gathered vnto Christ, but stand mingled togeather vvith all the vvicked &c. as theire present estate she­vveth, Therfore they are no people capable of the holy ministerie & Sacraments of Christ &c.

The people of this parish, as also of the other parishes in the land haue bene & are truly called vnto Christ, neither is there anie open wicked receaued into, or suffred in the Church.

Al the land at this day is of your Church vvithout the exception of anie one person▪ But I am sure you vvill not say but there are manie vvicked in the land, Therfore you are not seperate from the vvicked.

I know no such wicked as you speake of, If you know anie you shall do well to complaine that they may be cast out.

Alas I know none other. But whie were they thus receaued? Or how should they be cast out?

There were two cast out the last Sonday here in Londō, Ther­fore we seperate the wicked and keepe them not amongst vs as you say.

And had you no more apparantly wicked but two worthie to be cast out?

We know no more.

That is well; I report me to all your Gaoles &c. And were not these two cast out by the power of Antichrist, by some Chancel­lor or Commissarie, or some of that crewe?

What if they were?

Then you cast out Sathan by the power of Sathan.

Proue that?

That were to digresse from the present question, which is not whome & howe you now cast out, but whom & how you recea­ued and kepe in your Church, which I affirme to be all the pro­phane multitude of the land, without anie true seperation at the first, and so you continue.

That is not so, I tell you we excommunicated, two the last day, Therfore we haue seperation.

We denie your Assertion, we receiued not all, or anie prophane into owr Church at anie tyme.

In Q. Maries reigne all the land vvas fallen into open Apostacie and Idolatrie; In this estate vvere they all found at the begynning of owr Q. Elizabeths reigne, and so all at one instant vppon her first setting vpp this religion receiued into the body of your Church, had this ministerie set ouer them, these Sacraments administred vnto them &c. in your Parishes as they novv stand. Therfore all the prophane vvere receiued into your Church vvithout choise or seperation.

There were none then receaued but such as made true profession, and we can neyther requyre nor discerne more.

They could make no true profession that had no knovvledge of the truth. But the people that tyme had no knovvledge of the truth, Therfore they could make no true profession so sodenlye.

They all had knowledg of the truth, They repented and sorrowed for theire synnes as appeareth in the Confession.

Thus I proue that they had neyther true faith nor repen­tance. None can haue true faith & repentance but such as are called thervnto by the preaching of the gospell; But all this people vvere receiued into your Church vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before; Therfore they vvere receiued into your Church vvithout true faith & repentance; For all were receiued into your Church at one instant, this ministerie at the first dash set ouer them all &c.

Here Mr. Androes began a large discourse, that the Iewes had two maner of excommunications, The one of the heathens, the other of the Publicanes The one they banished from comming into theire Temple, The other they suffred to come thither, yet abhorred they theire companie & conuersation in ciuile things. And here would needs know of me which of these were the greater.

Your question is to no purpose neither is your assertion true; The Iewes had not two kinds of excōmunication, They did not excommunicate the heathen. And in that they ab­horred the companie of the Publicanes in ciuile conuersation whilest they admitted them to the Temple, they synned.

Let him be vnto thee as a beathen & a Publicane. Is ther not two kinde of excōmunications mentioned amongst the Iewes, one to the heathen, another vnto the Publicane?

No; there is no excommunication of the Iewes mencio­ned: The heathen they could not excommunicate, because they were neuer in communion with them: The Publicanes they did not excommunicate, because they still admitted them vnto the Temple.

I will shew you in Scripture that the Gentiles were not suffred to enter into the Temple; Therfore they were excom­municate: And the other was a ciuile discommuning.

It should seeme you know not what excommunication is. They were neuer admitted to enter into the Temple, Therfore they were not excommunicat; For none can be excommunicat but he that hath bene in cōmunion. But the heathen was neuer in Communiō. As for this ciuile discommuning of such as are still held members of the Church, it is a most vngodly deuise; For to cast out or abhor in owr commō meats such as the Lord receiueth vnto his Table, were verie vnchristian.

You vnderstand not the place; Did not owr Sauiour Christ there speake of excommunication, willing them to haue such as refused to heare the Church in detestation, as the Iewes held theire heathens & publicanes, whom they excommunicat.

Oure Sauiour there speaketh not of excommunication of the Iewes, but of the excommunicat Christians, willing all his Dis­ciples to shunne & eschue such as heare not the Church, as the Iewes did the heathens & the Publicanes, to haue neither spiri­tuall nor ciuile communion with thēm. But what is all this to the purpose, what answere do you make to my former reason?

Which reason? You haue as yet made none, but proued the same whith the same.

This reason. All the people of the Land were receiued into the Church at one instant; had this ministrie & these Sacra­ments &c. without being called vnto faith & repentance by the preaching of the gospell. Therfore they were receiued into your Church without true faith and repentance, because it is impos­sible to haue true faith & true repētance without the preaching of the gospell going before.

Was not the Eunuche as sodainly receiued into the Church, had the Sacraments administred vnto him, with as little know­ledg as they?

No, he was called by the preaching of Phillip, and had more knowledg then anie of these people, or well nigh anie of theire teachers thē had, being all generally plunged in apostacy & Ido­latry immediatly before.

Could he bewray greater ignorance, then to doubt of so

plaine a place, as none in the Scriptures coud be more manifest. He vvas vvounded for our transgressions, he vvas broken for our iniquities, The chastisment of our peace vppō him, & vvith his stripes vve are healed, of whom else could this be vnderstood but of Christ?

I not loking vppō the place as Luke recordeth it Act. 8. Espied not then how craftely Mr. Androes falsefied & misaledged the text; Yet I added this; He vvas led as a Shepe vnto the slaughter, & like a lambe domb before his sherer, So opened he not his mouth. My answere ther­fore herevppon was, that it was no ignorant question. But that [Page] the greatest Rabbine of those times might well haue asked the question, seing it is so commō a thing in the Prophetts, to haue figured manie things that came vnto Christ in theire owne persons, as appeareth euery where in the booke of psalmes, and also in this prophecy, and almost in all other. Is it not said in this prophet, Behold, I & the children that thou hast giuen me, are as signes & vvonders in Israell. might not this questiō then be well asked whi­ther the Prophet spake it in his owne person or of an other?

It was a most ignorant question. Could anie beare or be broken for owr transgressions but Christ only?

But the Prophet might be led as a sheope vnto the slaugh­ter &c. And therfore the question was according vnto know­ledge, and such as without knowledg could not be moued; Or vnlesse it were knowne, that text not be vnderstood. This Eu­nuche was a godly & zealous Proselite before Phillip met with him.

What, will you say godly before he had the knowledge of Christ?

Yea I say godly, and that before he knew that Christ was exhibited, & come in the flesh.

Then belike in that estate the Eunuche might haue bene saued, if so be he had dyed before he had heard that Christ was come in the flesh & ascended.

Yea I doubt not therof.

That is heresie, will you set that downe vnder your hande?

Yea that I will, and abide by it also to be truth, and proue both you hereticks if you obstinatly affirme and teach the con­trarye.

Whie then there were two faithes, two wayes of saluatiō, one for Iewes, an other for Christians.

It followeth not; There was but one faith, one saluation, commō to all beleiuers from the begynning; Christ to day, & ye­sterday, & for euer the same. The Iewes beleiued in Christ to come, The Gentiles then in Christ come; Both in Christ; Both saued by faith in Christ. The Iewes that had not as yet seene the person, nor heard of the ministerie of Christ, dying in that estate were vndoubtedly saued. The Lord bare much & a long tyme with the Iewes, and gaue a tyme of remouing these things.

The Eunuche made a true profession when he confessed IESVS to be the Sonne of GOD, & was then baptised; Therfore owr people making as good confession, whie should they not [Page] also as sodainly be receiued to the Sacraments & ministerie?

It hath oft bene sayd that your people do not neither could make so good a confession as the Eunuche because they had not the preaching of the gospell going before theire confession, nei­ther shewed they such fruits of faith as the Eunuche did, who was a true worshipper of GOD before.

The Gaoler in the Acts was as sodainly called, baptised, and shewed no more fruites of faith then these did.

That is not so; he washed the Apostles stripes, administred comfort vnto them, & foode vnto them after that he & his howse-hold had heard & beleiued the word preached. But I neuer heard of anie Church erected in this maner, without the word preached going before as yours is.

They had the word preached in king Edwards time.

What boted that, when they all fell to Idolatrie in Q. Maries time, and all without being called to repentance by the gospell, were receiued into your Church &c.

The confession they made was sufficient.

That is denied and proued insufficient, because it was not wrought by the preaching of the gospell going before. Answere that reason.

Herevppon Mr. Hutchinson toke the pen & ynke & wrote to this effect.

The confessiō of sinne that is publiquely made in the Church of England, is sufficient to enable all such as say it sincerely, to the ministerie & Sacraments of the Church.

The verball confessiō that is prescribed & vsed in the Church of England, is not sufficiēt to enable the people that say it, or say Amen vnto it, vnto the ministrie and Sacramēts of Christ; Neither could they make anie true or sincere confession, without the preaching of the word going before, to call them therevnto.

Vppon this issue we for that tyme ceased; They affirming this verball confession in this maner sayd, to be sufficient to enable all the people so saying it ouer, And I for the reasons aboue said, denying the same.

Mr. Hutchinson put vp the paper wherein these Arguments and propositions were wrytten into his bozome, but promised me a Copie; vvherevnto I condiscended, so that vppon the next conference I might keepe the paper.

There arose cōtrouersie betwixt Mr. ANDR. & me concerning these words [...] and [...] He affirming them to be all one; I, to be very dyuerse; the one signifying, vicinity; the other, dis­iunction of habitations; he alledging the ancyent vse; And I [Page] both the ancient & present; affirming all to be corrupt.

Mr. Androes also in reasoning with me oft swore by his ho­nestie, for which I reproued him for swearing vnlawfully & ma­king his faith an Idole. But he said I knew not what an oth or an Idole meant.

Mr. Androes also vsed this word Luck. I sayed there was no fortune or luck; but all things came to passe by the prouidence of God. To prooue Luck he torned in my Testament to the 10. of Luke ver. 31. [...] &c. And torned in a leafe vppon the place, and as he was going out willed me to consider of it. vvhich is no more then to come to passe, although sodainly or vnloked for to vs, yet by the direction & prouidence of God vnto vs; without which a sparrow falleth not vppō the ground. So that though the heathens abused this word, to chance & for­tune, yet is it both contrary to Christian faith, and not the first and proper signification of the word.

1. FIrst they hold, by especially Do. Androes, that the scrip­tures now ought not to decide controuersies, because the scriptures cannot speake.

2. That the scriptures ought to be iudged & interpreted by the ancyent fathers wrytings, & not by other scriptures, or the circumstances of the text.

3. That because the spirits of the Prophets must be subiect to the Prophets, therfore the wrytings of these dead men ought to iudge & interpret the scriptures.

4. That the scriptures ought to be interpreted & expounded by Logick.

5. That no man may preach the word, or interpret scriptures, but he that hath an office in the Church.

6. Being pressed vvith Acts. 13. ver. 15. And theire owne note vppon the same in theire Geneua Bible, he vtterly reiected both that translation & the notes therevppon, saying yt vvas inhibited to be vsed in theire Church.

7. They further said, that Paul was a minister of that Syna­gogue, because he was a Pharisey.

8. There is no Church where there is no administracōn of sa­craments. Being pressed that the Pastor alone cannot make a Church, neither that vppon the death or deposing of the Pastor, at vvich tyme the Church for a season is vvithout sa­craments, as also that the host of the Israelites vvere a long tyme in the wildernes without sacraments; they only answe­red vnto the last, & said, that the Israelites vvere not without sacraments at anie tyme, because they alwaies had the pillar of fire.

9. Being shewed that this pillar was no sacrament of the coue­nant prescribed by God to be vsed of the Church, they still af­firmed that the Church could not be said to be without the [Page] sacraments, whiles they had these Sacramentall signes.

10. They held that Christ after his death descended into hell.

11. Do. Androes indeuored to prooue it by Colos. 2. ver. 15. be­cause Christ is there said to haue triumphed ouer the princi­palities & powers; his consequent & collection being denyed & shewed to be a popish dreame, & to haue no groundworke or warrant from this place, he sought to escape by denying the english translation, which saith and hath tryumphed ouer them in the same cross, because it is in some copies tryumphing them in himself.

12. Being pressed that Christs spirit was in the hands of his fa­ther, Luke. 23.46. his bodie in the graue, therfore he could not after his death descend into hell. To this Do. Androes answered, that his soule being in the hand of God might be in hell, because the hād & power of God was euery where; Yt was then said that Christs soule was in paradise, & that all the soules of the blessed were then by that reason in hell aswell as his, yea Christ his soule now might so be said to be in hel like­wise, because the power of God is euery where: But Christ having finished all his suffrings, & performed them vppon his crosse. Iohn. 19. had now nothing to do in hell.

There remayned an Argument at our last conference without answere, which was this.

13. Do. Androes here denyed the minor. & said the people were not receaued into theire Church & had the sacramēts dely­uered vnto them before they had bene taught half a yeare. Being demaunded what the people in the meane while were to be esteemed, whether faithfull or idolatrous, whether mē ­bers or not members of theire Church; he said, they were neither to be esteemed faithfull nor vnbelieuers, neither members nor not members, but they where all this while in membring.

14. Being demaunded what those preachers were to be estee­med, whither ministers or not ministers vnto this people, they answered that they were ministers.

Argument. 1. There can be no minister but vnto a flocke; But here by your ovvne saying vvas no flocke at this tyme Therfore these could be no ministers vnto them.

15. They here denyed the Maior, & affirmed that there may be a minister without a flocke.

[Page] Argument. 2. A shepheard can be no shepheard ouer goates or svvyne, but only ouer sheepe; The ministerie of Christ cānot be set ouer infidells, or ouer anie people to take chardge or cure ouer them, vntill those people be called vnto, & haue made profession of the faith.

16. They still denied the Maior, & gaue this reason therof, because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church.

Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church, but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church; It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church, & an other thing to be a member of the Church.

17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells, because he was said to be the tea­cher of the Gentiles, & all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations.

To this it was answered, that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie hea­then which were not called to the faith, & ioyned to the Church, still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth, & exercising a ministerie ouer them.

18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge & care ouer strangers.

Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes, called to the faith, dispersed through manie regions, as the next verse. 1 Pet. 1.2. & Iames 1. sheweth.

19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths. though ye haue ma­nie teachers, yet haue ye but one father.

Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were be­leeuers.

Argument. 3. There can be no communion betvvixt the beleeuers & vnbeleeuers; therefore the infidells can haue no communion vvith the Church in the ministerie thereof, or in anie spirituall action.

Being demaunded by them what we meant by com­munion, we answered, such cōmunion as is spoken of Act. 2.42. in doctrine, in prayer, in the sacraments, in mutuall com­munication in all Christian duties, & how none were receaued to this communion, before they were ioyned as mem­bers vnto the Church.

[Page] Argument. 4. There can novv be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testamēt, but vvhere a mutuall couenant is made betvveene the Pastor & the people, he bounde to teach, guide, & gouerne them, they againe to obey him in the Lord: But the infidells haue made no such couenant vvith the Pastor; Therfore &c.

20. Do. Androes said, the Pastor ought not to gouerne; that he himself was a Pastor, yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke; and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pa­stors, as Bishops.

We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer vvas a generall name, cōmon to the Pastor, teacher, & El­ders, vvhich name importeth gouernment & care. Phil. 1.1. Act. 20.28.

21. Do. Androes here said, that the vvord bishop was not com­mon vnto either the Pastor, teacher, or Elders, but vnto other higher gouernors.

We answered, that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord, but only vnto their Lord bishops, & desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God.

22. Vnto vvhich they answered, that all their ministerie vvas by positiue lavves.

We then said that it must needs follow, that all their religion & vvorship was pollitick also, & that mi­nisterie vvhich Christ hath not prescribed in his Te­stament is antichristian.

At lentgh, after manie bitter & reprochfull speaches against vs, vve returned againe to our former dis­course, & framed this Argument vnto the rest.

Argument. 5. The people novv are to make choice & proofe of their Paestor: But thei vvithout the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor: Therfore &c.

Here they said that this & allowre other positions were fond, vaine, & foolish; & this was all the answere vve could get of them.

Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Bar­row to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church, that the people present might be satisfied; wher­vppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth.

The reasons vvhie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England, yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth.

[Page]1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith, but stand mingled togeather in confusion.

2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament.

3. The administration & worship of this Church is not accor­ding to the word of God.

4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment, Courts, officers & Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ, but new & antichristian.

Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God, or reformed, I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate.

These things I witnesse & subscribe. H. Barrovv.

I Iohn Greenwood, being demaunded by M^r. Hutch­inson whether I would set downe myne hād vnto this, or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike, refused to do either of both, vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised, & at neither of his commings would performe.