FIrst M^r. Sperin signified vnto me that he was sent by the Bishop of London to confer with me concerning certeine things that I was said to hold, Namely that there was no Church in England.

I answered that for the Bishop of London I had nothing to do with him, neither he with me; what I hold concerning their Church of England the Bishhopps knew long agoe, & neuer as yet would grant either publicke or priuate confe­rence, where the Booke of GOD might quietly decide the cōtrouersies betwixt vs; but they had ymprisoned me in close & most streight ymprisonment now two yeares & well nigh an half, besides manie more greeuous iniuries offred vnto vs, as publishing vs Heretikes, Schismatiks, Anabaptists, Re­cusants, turbulent, sedicious, & what not in their Pulpits, pri­uileged bookes, sparsed libells, accused vs for such vnto ou [...] most honorable magistrates at publ [...]cke Sessiōs &c. Therfore I had iust cause to suspect anie conferencc that he could send vnto me, considering his manifold mischeivous practises against the Gospell & true seruants of CHRIST continually.

Herevppon M^r. Sperin protested his comming to be in loue to conser brotherly & christianly with me, not vnto my harme or preiudice anie kinde of way, and began in some faint [...]ermes to def [...]nd the B. of London to be learned, graue, wise &c.

I said that could not be, he was a grievous enemy vnto the trueth, to CHRIST, and his Saintes, now holding aboue 60. of them in sondry Prisons without cause, lawe, or con­science; Y [...]a I affirmed him to be an APOSTATA, a per­secuter of that trueth he sometime gladly [...] & defended, & therfore his name was grievous & hate­full vnto me; and furder I demanded of M^r. Sperin his name, which being vnderstood, I willed him from henceforth to [Page 2] vse his owne n [...]me vnto me, for so I would not denie anie kinde of conference at anie time, which was in my power to grant; but I said that I merueled to see him come now in the BB^s. name, because I had heard he had sometymes bene other­wise minded.

To this he answered that he euer thought reuerently of the Bishopps, both for their learning, as also because her Maiestie hath authorised them.

I shewed their vnlawfull ANTICHRISTIAN Beastlike power & authoritie, as also their barbarous hauock they exercised in the Church, confounding & subuerting all Gods ordinances, & setting vp their owne deuises in stead therof; And therfore they that reuerence theis men call CHRIST execrable, & worship the beast.

Here M^r. Sperin obiected against me the place of IVDE, that I despised gouernment, & spake euill of them in authoritie.

If the things I haue spoken be true, or that their authoritie be not of God (both which I affirme & will approue by the word of God) then you greatly iniure both this Scripture & me.

Their authoritie is of God, in as much as it is of the Prince.

The Prince cannot make lawfull that which God forbid­deth, namely to haue & exercise both ecclesiasticall & ciuile au­thoritie, as this man doth from whom you come.

I iustifie not his ecclesiasticall authoritie, but that authoritie he hath from the Prince.

If he be a ciuile magistrate whie is he called a Bishop, & vsur­peth an ecclesiasticall function?

May not ciuile magistrates be called Bishops?

I neuer read that they were so in the new Testament, yet I acknowledg they are called Shepheards in EZEKIEL & MICAH, but this man we speake of was fometimes a Parson of a Towne, if not of more then one, then an Arch-Deacon, now a Lord B. which offices by their vse appeare, and by the lawes of our land are held to be ecclesiasticall.

Much is to be giuen to the Princes authoritie.

We will afterward speake of the Princes authoritie, let vs first enquire of theis their offices.

I will not here reason furder of them; For there were manie in the windowes, & by this time was my keeper retorned with paper & ynke, which he was a litle before sent for.

I had forgotten to insert certeine speech we had concerning the Church: I told M^r. Sperin that I neu [...]r deni [...]d that CHRIST h [...]d his Church in England, but that Church was s [...]perate & [Page 3] gathered from the prophane of the land, & now in gr [...]t p [...]rse­cution vnder the malignant Church. He then demanded of me what I thouht of thei [...] parish assemblies; I answered that as they stood in this confusion & Idolatrie, they could not be held the true e [...]tablished Churches of CHRIST. Now the ynke & paper being brought M^r. Sperin set downe this Proposition.

The parish assemblies vvhich haue preaching Ministers vvho for life and doctrine are vnreproueable, and vvhich themselues pr [...]fesse the true faith & Christian obedience, are Churches.

Hereunto I set downe this other Proposition.

Your parish assemblies as they generallie consist of all prophane, vvicked &c. mingled togeather in one bodie, vvorshipping God after the deui [...]es of men, s [...]anding in subiection [...]o the An [...]ichristian power & Courtes of the BBs. &c. though they haue a preaching Ministrie, yet are not the true established Churches of Christ.

I denied also his Proposition, Namely that there were anie such parishes which made such profession of faith & obedience, and had such a Minister as he spake of, which he endeuored to proue thus.

They are as lawfull Churches of Christ, as the assemblie of beleeuers in Corinth vvas a lawfull Church of Christ; But tha [...] assemblie vvas a law­full Church of Christ 1. Corinth. 1. 2.

Your first Proposition is denied.

What soeuer was necessarie to the decerning of the Church of God in the assemblie of Corinth, is in our assem­blies.

It is still denyed.

The profession of faith & obedience, ministrie & Sacra­ments, were the necessarie pointes wherby to discerne that Church, but theis we haue in as good or better maner then they.

It is not so with you, you haue not theis things in such maner as the Church of Corinth had.

I will insist vppō my Parish in milkstreet; It maketh such profession of faith, hath such a ministrie of the Gosp [...]ll &c.

It maketh not such profession, nor hath such a ministrie of the Gospell.

Some of the Church of Corinth erred in chief points o [...] the faith, denying the resurrection &c. They erred in maners being gyuē to fornication, incest, oppression, Drunkennes, their ministrie were vaineglorious, mixing & teaching their doctrines with the words that mās wisedome affordeth, de [...]i­uering [Page 4] their Sacraments a [...]ter a corrupt & euill maner &c. Yet for all theis faultes they were pronounced by the holy Gho [...]t the Church of God; But in my Parish in milkstreet we hold no such opinions or errors, we haue no such faultes either in life or maners, nor in our ministrie; so ours is much more the Church of God.

It is veri [...] preposterous to reason of the ministracōn of, & i [...] the Church, before you haue proued your Pari [...]h to be an esta­blished Church, which you see I deny, & require you to proue; In all this you haue reasoned from a Church to no Church, & so no comparison betwixt them, nor sequell of your Argume [...]t. The best Church that euer was or shalbe whilest it consisteth of mortall mē is daily subiect to manie errors, which faultes being shewed in the glasse of Gods word, it by & by washeth & pur­geth them away in that fountaine which is opened to the howse of DAVID for s [...]nne & vncleanenes; sondrie of the Church of Corinth erred in manie of theis things, the whole Church in some, as in the abuse of both the Sacramēts, the neglect of their [...]cclesiasticall cen [...]ures; But the Church of Corinth vppon the Apostles admonition by one letter repented, shewed great sor­row, & amended. But now for your Parish it consisteth of a cō ­fuse companie of prophane; Atheists, couetous, glu [...]tons, vaine, light, ignorant, & wicked people of al degrees & estates, of each sex [...] & age, they being all generallie without the knowledg, faith, or feare of God, without care of this life or of the life to come▪ to all which you indifferently administer & sell your Sa­craments, delyuering them in a false maner not according to CHRISTS Testament; Your whole ministrie & ministracōn is false & Antichristian; Furder you haue neither the freedom to practise CHRISTS Testament, nor the power or will to redresse anie thing that is amisse emongst you, but e [...]ther runne to the Antichristian power & Courtes of the Bishopps, or els continue obstinat & carelesse in your synnes. Thus you see no compari­son anie way betwixt the Church of Corinth & your Parish.

I know the contrary to this, I both know & visit all the hous­holders & their families, & I admit not anie to the Sacraments which haue not knowledg & make true profession of faith.

I know this I haue said to be true, & that you haue & do ad­mit some to your Sacraments which haue no such knowledge & make no such profession of faith.

What is true profession?

Where faith & obedience are ioyned to the word of God.

They all make true profession & belelee [...]e accordingly, who [Page 5] so doth not, I seperate him from the Sacraments.

Their vngodly life & false maner of worshipping of God shew, that they neither professe nor beleeue aright; furder thi [...] your maner of suspending or seperating, is as popish as the rest, euen the Instrument of that foolish Shepheard: where finde you in all CHRISTS Testament that one man may sepe­rate anie alone?

I do it with the consent of the people.

How should that be when they know not of it: Do no [...] you yt by vertue of your Idole Seruice-booke, and by that power your Lord the Bishop alloweth you? for CHRIST neue [...] gaue anie such censure as this suspencōn [...]o his Church, or such power to anie one man to seperate anie from the Sacra­ments, which is not pronounced excommunicat.

PAVL to the Thessa [...]ians willeth that such as are found dis­obedient should be noted with a letter, & his companie auoi­ded that he might be ashamed.

You alledg not the text right, neither doth the Apostle there meane of Suspencōn: It is wonderfull how you & som [...] others that haue written of, & seemed to seeke reformation, dare thus apparantly innouate the Testament of CHRIST, by bringing in your deuises into the Church & putting them in stead of a Scepter into CHRISTS hand, making him to reigne by them, & exercise them ouer the soules of men.

By this time manie being gotten into the Parlour & more into the wyndowes, we thought it meete to remooue vp to the chamber where I lye: Being come thither & set downe, I wil­led M^r. Sperin to finde out & applie his place of the Thessal [...]niās, which he did: It was 2. Thessal. 3. 14. & could serue nothing fo [...] suspencōn. The place not being furder enforced or stood vppō by M^r. Sperin, I called back againe to the point where we left, or rather where we began viz. That he should proue his Parish in milkstreet to be a true established Church of CHRIST; And thervppon I set him downe this Argumen [...] in writing.

In your Congregation in Milkstreet you haue no holy or orderly commu­ [...]ion nor true Ministerie of the Gospel, no Christian power, freedome [...]r order, therfore no true established church of Christ.

Here M^r. Sperin affirmed againe his parishioners to be a faithfull, holie, free people, walking orderly according to the Gospel, & proued it thus; because he doth administer the Sa­cramēts to none but vnto such as he knoweth faithful, saying that he knoweth all the parishioners both men & womē to be [Page 6] such, excep [...] one houshold, neither did he admit anie of their [...] to the Cōmunion before they came to him, & fetch [...] his token, at which time he examined them.

Were not all the parish of your Church, & did not you admi­nister the Sacraments vnto them all & to their seede, euen the first day you were made their Pastor? how could you then haue this assurance of their faith?

They had before a faithfull & godly man to their P [...]stor (na­ming M^r. Paget) by whom they were instructed, therfore there was no cause that I should doubt of their faithfulnes.

I wene that man still lyueth; Thus you buy & sell, chop & change your [...]cclesiasticall offices & lyuings of your Church as horses in a faire; he was euē as vnlawfull a minister as your self, he shewed himself a hireling in that he forsooke his flock.

Why is [...]t not lawfull with consent of the flock, vppon some occasions to remoue?

But the Priestes of England come & goe at their owne plea­sure as best is for their gayne, without the priuitie or goodwill of the people; he shewed himself a hireling both at his entrance and departure, so could he no way [...]ustifie or approue this whole parish vnto you; But let me aske you a question, how found M^r. Paget this parish?

Peraduenture they had a Preacher before; But why aske you?

For this reason, because in Q. MARIES time they were all apos­tate & fallen to Idolatrie; at the begynning of Q. ELISABETH [...] r [...]igne they were all found in that estate, & by the first sound of her Trompet all made Protestantes, had this ministrie set oue [...] them, the Gospell & Sacraments ymmed [...]atlie administred▪ eu [...] in the same parishes & estate as they now stand: So that I would know of you whether this people in this estate were a fit flock or Congregacōn to receiue the ministrie of the Gospel & Sacra­ments or no; and also whether anie Preacher ( [...]ow conning soeuer) can make this people, which cōtynue in the same estate, without anie repentance or amend [...]mēt of their former doing [...] ▪ the true Church of CHRIST or no.

Neither did they all apostate in Q. MARIES daies, neither do I thinke they therby forsook their christianitie, or were no Church.

Idolatrie was thē publikly set vp & exercised in their Church, all the parish resorted & gaue outward obedience to the same, such as refreined were eyther forthwith persecuted vnto the death, or out of the land; therfore I may affirme that all the pa­ [...] that remained were generally apostate, & so found & recei­ued [Page 7] in that estate of this ministrie to theis Sacraments, & so suc­cessiuely haue they continued to administer vnto them for the wage of BALAA [...]. Now that in this [...]ime of popery & Idolatrie they could be no Church, the whole first Table of the lawe sheweth plainly. There is but one God, one Spirit, one Faith, one Christ, one Church, one Ministerie: Christ is not deuided▪ he is not here & there, neither doth he cōmunicate with Anti­christ or Idols.

There must needs then be a seperation made of the faithfull from the vnbeleeners, Idolaters, prophane, before there can be a flock or fit people for the Lord.

There must needs also be a flock befo [...] there can be a Pastor or true ministrie erected or exercised; but as yet your parish in milk [...]treet was neuer thus seperate from the prophane of the land, or prepared to receiue or exercise the ministrie of CHRIST; therfore both people & ministrie are still in confusion & disor­der, & cannot be held the true established Church of CHRIST.

They are seperate from the propha [...]e, neither suffer I ani [...] such to communicat there.

They still stand in the same estate & confusion that they were first receiued at the beginning of our Q. ELIZABETHS reigne, euen all the pari [...]h that now dwell there, or hereafter shall dwell there, without exception of anie person, all are of your Church, none all this while seperat, no not one put from emongst you; therfore you stand in the same estate that the rest doe, eue one body with all the wocked of the land, vnless [...] you also think that there are none wicked emongst you, none wicked in the land.

I know none wicked in all my parish.

What not one wicked all this while? s [...]re you then haue a more excellent Church thē euer was on the earth: But trow you [...]re none wicked in all the land, with whom you stand one body? (for all are of your Church) will you iustifie also all the Pari [...] of England?

I will iustifie all those Parishes that haue preaching mi­nisters.

And what think you of those that haue vnpre [...]ching mi­nisters?

I think not such to be true Churches.

Mr. Speri [...] [...]as here requested to set downe this vnder his h [...]nd, but vvould not.

Surely theis Preachers are wondrous men, they can do more then euer our Sauiour CHRIST or his Apostles could do [Page 8] with their preaching, that in al places wheresoeuer they become can eftsoones ymmediatly make that Church which ere while was none, the true Church of Christ, & that all the Parish with­out exception of an [...]e one person, & that euen as sone as they are become ministers of the same. But what if that Parish where an vnpreaching Priest is, make the same profession that the other doe that haue Preachers, are they then no Churches?

Yes if they make the same profession of faith, then I hold them Churches also.

That they do: All the Parishes in England haue the same confession, Creed, & english Seruice-booke read, as the Papists also haue the same Creedes, Pater-nosters, Pistles, Gospels, & much of this Seruice-booke, therfore they are all of the Church, & so we are againe where we began, and all the land of your Church, without seperacō or exceptio of person; for all the land maketh this confession after this maner.

But we haue enough now spokē of theis Parishes, let vs come to the ministerie of your Church of Englād, what shall we think of the vnpreaching ministrie, is it a ministrie or no?

It is necessarie that the Church should haue the Scriptures read, and that by a minister.

You answere not the point; the question is, whither they be ministers or no.

I thinke they are Ministers.

Pastors they cannot be, because they cannot teach; which M^r. SP [...]RIN consented vnto: Yet aduenture they to delyuer, & the Parishes to receiue their Sacraments, which none but Pas­tors can do; They also both possesse & supply the roomes of pa­rish-Parsons. But I would now see how you can approue your owne ministerie by the Testament of CHRIST; which he cnde uored to do by this Proposition.

My Ministerie is from God, vvith the appro [...]ion of the assemblie of [...] Church vvhere I am.

That cannot be, you were presented by your L. Patron, insti­tuted by your L. Bishop in some place at his appointment, not in the presence of your Congregation, they were not called nei­ther had they anie thing to do with the action, they must take of force such an one as is thrust vppon them by theis LL^s ▪ the Pa­tron & Bishop; they haue n [...]ither consent nor discent nor anie thing to do in this action; they can neither chuse nor refuse nor put away for anie fault that their Parson can commit, be it neuer so heynous; be he an Heretike, Coniurer, Adulterer, Drunkerd, [Page 9] they can for no error or crime put him away, they mu [...] ioyne vnto him in prayer & Sacraments vntill the Bishop remou [...] him. Thus haue ye not that approbation euē of this p [...]ople you speake of, which though you had could nothing auaile but rather ouerthrow your ministerie, they being as yet vnga­thered to Christ, and therfore neither may in this estate chuse a Minister; nor anie exe [...]ise a ministerie vnto them, without [...]eynous sacriledge: But this your ministerie both in your en­trance, office, & whole administration is Antichristian, your entrance being by the Patron & Bishop, your office to be a towne Priest or parish Parson, your administracōn according to the prescriptiō & limitatiō of your L the Bishop, to whom you haue sworne your Cannonicall obedience.

The Patron doth elect by cōsent of the people, who haue yeilded their right vnto him, as vnto the wisest & worthiest emongst them, and so they approue his choise.

Whether the Patron had that power & priuiledg of the people o [...] no is doubtfull I thinke rather of the Pope: But that he doth it without their priuitie & maugre their wylls, it is euident; For be the Patron an hundreth myles of, be he [...] childe, a woman, yet they both may & will gyue the Benefice without the knowledg, priuitie, or cōsent of the parish. Now which way can either this election be iustified by the Testa­ment of Christ, or be ioyned vnto the ministerie of Christ?

I make lesse matter of my ordinacōn then of my mini­strie.

Yet withou [...] a true calling you cannot exercise anie true offic [...].

The calling is not the substance of the ministrie.

Thus whilest you professe science you make shipwrack of faith, & with your logick put away the Testamēt of Christ. Christ faith that he which ascendeth into the shepefolde anie other way is a thiefe & a spoyler; & in [...]other place; No mā taketh this honour to himself, but he that is called of God &c. Christ hath ordeyned to euery offic [...] lawes for the giftes, lif, & conuersation of the Officer, for his probation, election, ordinacōn, administracōn: He which wanteth the calling of Christ vnto the ministrie cannot haue or exercise anie mini­sterie in the Church; but you want the calling of Christ vnto your ministrie; therfor the ministerie you exercise is not of Christ.

I haue the true calling of Christ vnto my ministrie in my conscience.

The Conscience only is assured, & re [...]h vppon the word of God; But your calling vnto this ministerie can [...]ot be [...] by the word of God, but is found therby to be vnlawfull & anti­christian; Therfore &c.

I stand not vppon my outward calling by the Bishop so much as vppon my inward calling & the consent of the people.

But the people you said erewhile consented to the election of the Patron, the ordinacōn of the B. &c. therfor their consent was vnto & in enill, & so can no way iustifie your ministerie, neither haue the people anie power to make anie other or better Elec­tion, all of them standing vnder the antichristian yoke of theis Babilonish Bishopps.

I will not stand to iustifie the calling of the Bishopps, I haue a better calling then the calling of the Bishopps.

But what then thinke you of the calling of theis BB^• ▪

I confesse it to be vnlawfull.

Set downe that vnder your hand.

To wh [...]t end; that were to bring my self into danger.

Are you afraid to witnesse vnto the trueth? Well, but being vnlawfull how [...] you were not afeard to receaue it, & still to re [...]eine it?

I did i [...] in ignor [...]nce, I haue since repented yt.

Which way could you be a true minister that knew not so much as the true entrance vnto a true ministrie; how durst you aduenture to administer before the Lord, & take the care of the soules of men in this ignorance? Furder how can you be said to haue truly repented that calling which you still reteine, still ad­ministring by the same the Bishops licence, & still standing vn­der his yoke & obedience?

I attribute much to the ciuile magistrate, I do it because of the ciuile magistrate that authoriseth the B.

But may the ciuile magistrate either comm [...]d anie thing contrary to the [...] of God▪ or if he do is [...]e to be obeied therin, or ca he excuse you befo [...] the Tribunal of Christ for the breach of Gods lawes?

Why then you affirme that the Queene & the Parliament do wickedly in gyuing this power & authoritie vnto the BB^s. will you write that?

Yea that I will by the grac [...] of God whilest I haue breath, & [...] it with my blood also (if so God will) yt being directly con­trary to the Testament of Christ as your self confesseth, & yet continue to do cōtrary to your owne Conscience O take heed, God is greater then your conscience: It is a fearefull thing to fall [Page 11] into the hands of the lyuing God.

I thanke God I haue his calling vnto my ministrie, which is the inward calling, being approued by my gyft [...]s vnto my Flocke, so that though there were error in my outward cal­ling (which I haue repēted) yet my ministrie is not disanulled.

With what conscience can you now call that an error in a true calling, which euen now you confessed to be a false cal­ling? Is not this to diminish, excuse, & hide your synne? call you this true repētance, how can you be thought, or dare you affirme to haue repeted this error in your entrance into your ministrie, when you still pleade for & iustifie that calling by the ciuile magistrate, when you confesse it repugnant vnto, & condemned in the Testamet of CHRIST, how can you be said to haue repented it when you still reteine it, stand & admini­ster by yt, and ioyne vnto such as still enter that way? neither in deed haue you a [...]ie other calling vnto your ministerie in your Church: make it therfore either good or euill, lawfull or vnlawfull by the word of God, let vs bring it to the triall.

I stand not so much by their calling as by the calling of God, by whom I am enabled to my ministrie.

This is Anabap [...]isticall to iustifie open transgression by the inward conscience or gyftes; might not anie thus vsurpe the ciuile magistrates office also by thei [...] inward gyftes, wisdome, knowledg, fitness &c. but God hath ordeined a lawfull calling to euery lawfull office, which may at no hād be seuered from the office▪ which calling who so wanteth & taketh honour to himself to administer &c. breaketh the boundes of God & vsurpeth: You haue no giftes which you haue not receiued of God, God knoweth his owne giftes which he hath gyuen to euery one best whom h [...] seeth meete & hath appointed to the ministerie, vnto such he alwayes gyueth a lawfull calling vnto the ministerie; wherfore you must eyther approue your calling by the word of God, or els be held [...] vsurper, for all your giftes.

The BB^s. tolerate manie thinges with vs.

They allow nothing but their owne proceedings, neither doth the land receiue or alow anie other.

I say not allow, they may suffer that they allow not.

Here is good worke emongst you, they tolerate with you, & you subscribe vnto them; thus are you togeather in con­spiracie against CHRIST.

Will you say that M^r. EGERTON & Mr. GARDINER are not true ministers of the Gospell because they haue no such cal­ling as you require?

I require no other calling then CHRIST enioyneth, which cal­ling if they want (as I am sure they do) I dare affirme that they do not serue Christ in the ministrie of the Gospell▪ all extraordi­narie offices & callings thervnto being now ceased.

All the Churches & learned in EVROPE giue vs consent and allow vs for Ministers.

But vntill you approue your selues such by the word of God yt will nothing auaile you.

Our giftes & Doctrines approue our ministrie: Did you euer heare M^r. EGERTON & M^r. GARDINER?

You still oppose your giftes against God, & hold the faith in respect of mens persons: The mē you speake of I neuer heard in their ministerie, but I know them by their ministerie to be no­table Sectories & false Teachers.

They be men of singuler giftes, & how can you gyue out this of them & know them not, neither euer heard them teach.

I am taught to know the tree by the fruit, a false Minister by his antichristian entrance, office, & administration, all which are notably found vppon them & vppon you all; neither will I say that the one of thē bought his Benefice, or that the other hath bene conuinced of false Doctrines by his owne Auditorye son­dry times.

The first hath repented that, & you haue the other but by hearesay: they are knowne to be learned men, & such as teach sound Doctrines.

My hearesay hath better proofe then your know; But how can theis or anie of you teach sound Doctrine sincerely in a false ministerie? BALAAM, & the Pharises, & Satā himself had & hath as great giftes & learning as they or anie of you: But if we would come euen to this preaching you boste of, I suppose more cor­rupt Teachers cannot be found in anie age then these, they teaching nothing almost truly, much lesse sincerely.

I teach Christ Iesus very God & very man, & him crucified, & that truly.

I will not presse you with anie Argumentes drawne from your, false entrance & administracōn, all which vndoubtedly cōuince that you cannot preach CHRIST soundly, yet is there no here­tike that holdeth not some trueth: But this I affirme & will ap­proue that you deny the whole anointing of CHRIST in his three Offices of KING, PRIEST, & PROPHET, and therfore you deny CHRIST to be come in the flesh, & cannot preach him soundly; I graunt indeed that you preach him crucified in [Page 13] your Sermons & Church, buffet [...]d, skourged, cr [...]wned with thorn [...]s, by [...]ayling, blasph [...]ming, & impri [...]ning le is faith­full witnesses & seruants dayly at all hand [...]s, you preach him blindfoulded by drawing a vaile ouer his fac [...], that the p [...]ople should not see to th'end of his ministerie, not one of you ei­ther Priest or people as yet knowing what belongeth to a true professiō, a true Cōmunion, a true Office, or a t [...]ue entrance, much lesse to true administration: CHRIST crucified you all abhorr, you cānot abide his crosse, you will not suffer or abide by anie trueth, but dayly seeke new cauills, distinctions and [...]uasions to hide anie trueth which bringeth d [...]nger, or to auoide the crosse of CHRIST, & therfore you shall not reigne with him. It were an infinite thing to reckon vp the diuer­fitie of opinions, sectes, errors that are found emongst you of the ministrie, it being almost an vnpossible thing to finde two of you of one [...]udgment, or anie one of you constant to your selues, except it be in euill; one preaching one Doctrine in one place, & another the quite contrary in another place, y [...]a some of your chief Teachers haue preached p [...]linodā concerning your ministerie & Sacramentes of your Church: But I would now know what office these men you speake of, or your self do execute.

M^r. EGERTON is a Doctor, Mr. GARDINER & my s [...]lf are pastors.

Your Church of England hath no such office as the Tea­chers Office, yt hath no other then Vniuersitie Doctors, which are not in anie office, or therby Ministers: I wene also he hath a dumbe Minister one that cannot preach for his Pastor; so that he is a hireling Curat & no Christian Teacher. As for M^r. GARDINER & your self, you be parish Parsons, & therfore cannot be held christian Pastors.

I deny your Argument, it followeth not because they are termed Parsons, therfore they are not Pastors.

Both the name & Office are diuerse, therfore not the same.

The Parson is called in latine Rector Ecclesiae, which name properly agreeth to the Pastor.

Your latine name is popish, one of the names of blasphe­mie written vppon the heades of the Beast, for CHRIST hath appointed many to the office of gouerning & ouerseeing, & not the Pastor only: And therfore this name is not proper to the Pastor.

The Pastor should gouerne the Church.

But the Pastor is not to gouerne yt alone, there are others ioyned in Commission with him, therfore he cannot in this ma­ner be called the rector of the Church, though he be a gouernour emongst the rest: But the office of a parish Parson is as greatly diuerse from the office of a Pastor, as the name is, for if M^r. FOXE say true, they were first created when the Metropolitane BBs. sprāg vp, as Baylifes vnto them; Furder, I neuer read in the new Testament that the Pastor of a Church should be so stinted & limited by other Ministers, as you are by your Lord Bishop, his Chancell [...]r, Commissary & Arch-Deacō; I maruell what eccle­siasticall offices theis men that thus rule ouer so manie Pastors & Churches also, haue.

Though the Parson be called rector Ecclesiae yet he doth not go­uerne alone, there are others ioyned with him.

Who be theis? I neuer heard of anie such.

The Church-wardens & Sidemen &c.

What are these gouernours also? SPE. Yea.

To say the trueth neither the one nor the other do gouerne but stand in most miserable & seruile subiection to the BB^s. & to their substitutes: or if this gouernment should be their owne (as you surmise) most Antichristian it is, & such as no true Pastors or Elders may execute in the Church of CHRIST: But are you not afeard M^r. SPERIN thus to glose & counterfet to couer these marked souldiours of the Beast, with the names and titles of Christes Officers? will you set downe this vnder your hand?

Whervppon M^r. SPERIN set downe this Proposition.

‘Some Pa [...]sons may be Pastors Ephe 4. Some Church-wardens & Syde­men may be Elders [...] Timoth. 4. But those that cannot preach are no Pastors, & those Church-wardens that cannot gouerne are no Elders.’

Those are wonderfull gouernours as euer I heard of, I had thought theis Church-wardens had rather bene the Collectors or Deacons of your Church, because they gather & dispense th'almes of your Churches. But now to your Parsons, they haue a diuerse and discrepant 1. Name 2. Office 3. Entrance vnto their Office both in Election & Ordination, 4. Administracōn, 5. maintainance or lyuing: For all which reasons seuered, & ioyned none of your Parsons can be true Pastors.

The name of Pastor is of no moment, for they are also called Gouernours & Ouerseers, aswell as Pastors.

But this name of Pastor is only peculiar & doth distinguish the office of the Pastor from others, & so doth neither the name [Page 15] of Elder nor Ouerseer, but being in Counsell & gouernment com­mon to him with others, are also gyuē indifferently to him with other: Therfore this name of Pastor is of great monent & can neither be altered nor spared, as wherby the wisdome of GOD doth both distinguish & expresse the Office, therfore if you take away or change this name, you also take away & change the Of­fice, no other name that can be deuised by man sufficing to dis­tinguish & expresse this Office, as this doth.

Thus the time not suffering to follow or vrge the other pointes alledged against this Office, we for this time ceased; M^r. SPERIN making promise to come againe, and if he could to bring some other with him.

Mr. SPERIN coming before Mr. EGERTON more then half an houre, & not being certaine of M. EGER­TONS comming, they not staying therevppō, straight wayes entred speech.

I would know the causes of your forsaking our Church.

Whye, haue you forgot all our last Cōference? I then shewed you manie causes.

I tooke it, because all the people were receiued into the Church at the beginning of her Maiesties reigne (without anie proofe of their Faith or due order) was the cause.

The vnworthines & confusion of the people, togeather with

the vnlawfull ministrie, ministration & ecclesiasticall gouern­ment now exercised emongst you, were assedged for causes.

But neither our ministrie or people are such now.

All the land in the begynning of her Maiesties reigne were compelled & receiued into your Church in one day from open Apostacie & grosse Idolatrie, without the preaching of the Gospel going before, this self same ministrie set ouer them, & Sacra­ments administred vnto them, in this estate wherein they are now founde & remaine.

I know not what then was done, I was but. 8. yeares old, nei­ther suppose I that you can remember it: Therfore I will no [...] meddle therewith.

I reason from the first gathering & planting of your Church, which I proo [...]e vnto you to be vnlawfull, & contrary to Christs Testament: For it was neuer read there, that anie Church hath bene gathered & planted by ciuile force & without the preach­ing of the Gospel going before; or that all so sodenly & confu­sedly were receiued into the Church.

I will not iustifie their doinges then: But now I affirme all my people to professe.

How should they professe, when they stand in the same estate & transgression they then did?

I denie that: Thei which were thē vnbele [...]uers do now beleeue.

That can not be.

But before you proceede further, it is necessarie that M^r. SPERIN either iustifie or disalowe of the gathering of the Church then.

I will not iustifie that gathering by constraint.

Set downe that vnder your hand.

What neede that, you heare I say it.

But for the better prooceeding set it downe vnder your hand, or els defend it, and we will disprooue it.

Where vpon Mr. SPERIN set downe this Propositi [...]n vnder his hand.

I do not maintaine that Church that vvas gathered, & as it vvas from papisterie compelled to b [...] protestants in the beginning of her Maiesties Reigne.

I will prooue that your Parishes still remaine in the same estate, as they were then gathered▪

Your Parishes now consist of the same people & their seede, as yet no seperation made, still remaining vnder the same Ministrie, vvorship, Sacraments, Courts, Ecclesiasticall gouernment: Therfore they are in the same estate.

Most of these that at the beginning of her Ma^ts. Reigne were receiued into the Church, are dead & changed, & new come into their roomes.

You haue them or their seede.

Once in twelue yeeres lightlie the most part of the Parish changeth, as I by experience know, some goinge, & others comminge.

But none come but such as then were receiued, or their seede: For they go but from one parishe to another, all the Parishes being one bodie, one Church.

I would haue you answer vnto my former Proposition, wherein I haue shewed your Parishes to be in the same estate, wherin they then were planted.

I deny that: For neither all the people remaine, neither are they the same people, for they were then vnbelee [...]ers, and now they that remaine beleeue or professe the faith, now they willinglie professe faith, which then constrainedlie confessed faith.

This distinction of AVGSTINE will deceiue you, for how should the vnlawfull & vngodlie actions of anie past, be iusti­fied by his faith following: Faith doth not iustifie but forsake transgression: Againe how should they be said to haue Faith, or to haue left their sinnes, which still cōtinue in the same cō ­fusion, disorder, false ministrie, false worshipp, false gouern­ment.

They doe not so.

I will prooue all this in due order. And first that you haue the same people & their seede in the same confusion.

All the land is now of your Church.

It is not so.

All the Queenes naturall subiects that dwell in anie Parish are of your Church, because euerie Parish is of your Church.

All the Queenes subiects that dwell in our parishes are not of our Church.

They are of the parish: Therfore of the Church.

There dwell manie papists that are not of our Church.

Euen those papists are of your Church: And thus I prooue it.

None but those of the Church may offer in the Church or haue anie commu­nion vvith the Saints, or haue anie interest in the ministrie: But the papists communicate vvith your Church & [...]aue interest in the mi­nistrie, in that they contribute togither vvith the parish vnto the ministrie. Therfore the papists that dwell amonge you are of your Church.

Whie is it not lawfull for the Minister to be maintained with the goods of vnbeleeuers.

Vnbeleeuers haue nothing a doe, neither are bound to the maintenance of the ministrie: This contribution is called in the new Testament a dutie & communion of the Saints, an offering & sweete odoure vnto God.

But vnbeleeuers may haue no spirituall communion with the Saints neither may offer with them in the Church, neither haue interest or anie thinge to do with the ministrie.

Therfore may not be bounde, nor receiued to contribute vnto the maintenance of the ministrie.

I denie that.

Whie, it is prooued by all these reasons. Further it is expresslie forbidden. Leuit. 22. 25. that the Priest might not receiue anie maner of offering, were it neuer so perfect at the hand of a stran­ger: Therfore much lesse may the Minister of Christ.

Mr. Sperin in reading the text would giue no iudgment of it, vntill he had further considered therof.

I will prooue it by a necessarie reason vnto you. None that was not a Iewe, or come vnto the faith might enter into the Tē ­ple, much lesse contribute or offer in the Temple.

At this time M^r. EGERTON entered, whoe beinge set downe with them & made acquainted with the present discourse, they proceeded as followeth.

The place of Leuit. being read againe & further enforced [Page 20] thus: ‘The oblations of the vvicked are an obhomination vnto the Lord. But the tithes & contributions of the papists are oblations of the vvicked: Therfore thei are an abhomination &c.’

But may not the minister receiue anie gifts of vnbe­leeuers?

Yea, they may receiue or inherit ciuile things, that are giuen by, or belonged to vnbeleeuers.

It is w [...]itten. 1. Cor. 10. If the vnbeleeuers bidd you to a feast &c. eate, making no question.

We doubt not but all Christians may receiue in priuate or Ciuill respects, the goods or beneuolence of vnbeleeuers: But you must put difference betwene that contribution in cōmunion, to & with the Church, and ciuile & priuate ben [...] ­volence.

The Apostle Gala. 6. vvilleth all that are taught in the vvord to commu­nicate of their goods vnto them that teach them: But the papists are taught by vs in the vvord: Therfore they may contribute vnto vs in our ministrie.

This place is to be vnderstood of such as are receiued into, & taught in the Church, & not of all them that are with­out the Church, & heare the ministrie therof: The Apostle gaue not this rule to them.

The recusant papists are not instructed of you, th'other pa­pists are both instructed, and they & their seede admitted vnto the sacraments: But all contribute & pay tythes & so are all of your Church.

In my Parish I admitt no papists or open vnworthie vnto the Sacraments.

Your Parish hath as yet made no seperatiō from the pa­pists or prophane of the lande: Therfore you do not seperate the vnworthie.

They are now beleeuers, that before were vnbeleeuers; they now professe willinglie that before professed by con­straint; and If ther be anie wicked, I put them from the Sa­craments.

You so fix your eies vpon your owne assertions, as that you giue no eare to other mens reasons. How oft hath this bene denied & disprooued vnto you: you haue neuer as yet made anie seperatiō, but still remaine in the stepps & sinnes of your fore-fathers, neither haue you anie power to seperate anie from amonge you.

I haue power, and doe put the wicked from the Sacra­ments.

What your selfe alone?

Yea with the consent of the Church.

I shewed you the last day what kinde of instrument your sus­pention & puttinge from the Sacraments is; you & your parish haue not the power to [...]xcommunicat anie.

This is not true. we haue power, & do excommunicat.

It is thē by the power of the BB^s. & not by the power of Christ.

It is not by the power of the Bishopps, but by the power of Christ.

That is not so, you haue neither power from Christ, nor from the Bishopps to excommunicat anie: you haue leaue in your seruice-booke to suspend from your sacrament, but not to ex­communicat without the Bishop.

We do excommunicat without the Bishop.

Then your Church hath two maner of excommunications.

That followeth not, the Bishopps excomunication is but an approbation of ours.

That is not so, The Bishop hath power to excommunicate, when & whom he will of your Parish, & that without your pri­uitie or consent: Moreouer the Bishopps do excōmunicate by a latine writt; but if your excomunication be such, then is it Ami­christian, if it be after another maner, then haue you two sorts of excōmunications in your Church.

When anie deserueth to be excommunicated, then I & the Church-wardens present such to the Bishop, & he excōmunica­teth them.

Then the Bishop excōmunicateth, & not you; you are but as they that gi [...]e euidence & information to the Iudg: The Bishop is the Iudg.

The Bishop doth not excōmunicate vpon your information, neither for anie sinne, how heinous soeuer. But only for not ap­peeringe at, or disobeying their Courts. Moreouer as the Ordi­nary doth excōmunicat so doth he absolue whom he list, with­out the priuitie of your Congregacōn.

The Bishop his excōmunication is but a Ciuile discōmunion.

What, will you make the excōmunication of your Church a Ciuile action? we neuer heard of anie such excomunication, vn­till Cooper & Gwalter published their conceites therof.

May not the Ciuile magistrate approueth' excōmunication of the Church.

Yes, but the Ciuile magistrate may not excōmunicate anie, as your Bishopps do; And that as you say, by vertue of the Ciuile authoritie.

The Bishop doth not excommunicat, he doth but ap­proue our excommunication.

Whie, erewhile you cōfefsed that you did but present your sheepe to the wolfe, and that the Bishop did excommunicat: & we prooued that the Bishop did both excommunicate and absolue whom & when he would in your Parish, without your priuities or cōsents: as also that your Church hath none other excommunication, then that of his.

We haue the same excommunication that they had in the Church of Cori [...]th. 1 Cor. 5.

You haue neither such a faithfull people gathered out of the world vnto Christ, neither haue you the power of Christ, neither do you yt after that holie order of the Church of Corinth: But you are driuen to runne vnto your Lord the Bis­hop, who doth it of his sole authoritie, by his commissarie in forme of a latine Writt, which you are compelled to reade & publishe in your parish Church: How can you call this that excommunication they had in the Church of Cori [...]th.

We excommunicate in the name & power of Christ, as the Church of Cori [...]th did.

That is not so, it is don in the name & power of the Bis­hop, & not in that maner as is expressed. 1 Cor. 5.

The Bishopps power is Ciuile, but this actiō ecclesiasticall.

And may a Ciuile person execute anie ecclesiasticall Office or action?

Do you hold the Bishopps, their Commissaries & sub­stituts meerly Ciuile, & not ecclesiasticall?

Yea I hold them meerly Ciuile, & not ecclesiasticall.

Write that, and set it downe vnder your hand.

So I will: & tooke vnto him penne & ynke.

Whie so, what neede it to be written?

That we may the better know, wherof we reason & hold to the point.

This is a needfull point to be set downe in wryting: For if the Bishopps & their substituts be meerely Ciuile then you haue as yet no Church, no ministrie, no Sacraments.

Their offices & actions are Ciuile as we esteeme them.

I hold them meerely Ciuill & not ecclesiasticall, because they are constituted by the Prince, and not by Christ in his Testament.

Write that, let vs haue it set downe.

But he delaying be­cause of M^r. EGERTON, M^r. BAROVV set downe as fol­loweth.

‘The Bishopps Commissari [...]s & th [...]ir [...] are merely ci [...]ile and [...] [...]asticall, b [...]cause the [...] are constitu [...]d by the Pri [...]ce, and not by [...] in his Testament.’

This beinge written was read & shewed vnto them, but du­ringe the tyme of drawing them to this Proposition, & the wry­ti [...]ge therof, M^r. GREENVVOOD enforcing the conclusions & se­quell that would ensue therof: M^r. SPERIN here began̄ to re­tract his Proposition & quallifie it by puttinge in this wo [...]d (a [...]) inst [...]ede of (bee [...]) so that now, he alloweth them, both Ciuile & ecclesiasticall O [...]ficers.

What, may the Bishopp execute both Ciuile & ecclesiasticall offices?

Whie not?

Because it is contrarie to the ordinance of God, who hath ap­pointed vnto these diuers & distinct offices, diuers persons to execute the same.

Let him that hath an office waite on his office.

Their Ciuile authoritie is of the Prince.

It is not therby iustifi [...]d, seing it is vnlawfull for any eccles [...] ­asticall officer to execu [...]e also a Ciuile office, or sor one man to hau [...] both an [...]cciesiasticall & Ciuile office at once.

DAVID was both a King & a Prophet.

What then?

He executed both a Ciuile & ecclesiasticall office therby.

That is not so.

A Proph [...]t was an office of the Temple.

None but a L [...]uite might be a Minister of the Temple.

But sundrie haue executed both.

MOSES & SAMVEL did so for a season, but it was by ex­presse warrant from Gods mouth; neither continued they so to do, neither gaue they example, or may be presidents for vs to do the like, without the like warrant: Make therfore your Bis­hopps eyther whollie Ciuile, or whollie ecclesiasticall, let vs know what to hold them?

They are Ministers.

And they are ciuile Magistrates, LL^s of the Parliamēt-house, Iustices of peace, Iudges of ciuile causes &c.

Though their power be mixt, yet is it not simplye vnlawfull.

By the word of GOD it is symplie vnlawfull for anie one man to execute both a ciuile & ecclesiasticall office at once.

This mixture is the misterie of iniquitie, & the power of the Beast.

Though they haue ciuile Offices, yet keepe they the ministe­rie, & their ministeriall actions are good▪

This is strange Doctrine, that one man may administer both in ciuile & ecclesiasticall Offic [...]s at once: May a ciuile Magistrate intermeddle with the ministrie in the Church, or a Minister of the Church execute anie ciuile Magistracie [...] what a confusion were this.

Their ciu [...]le authoritie doth not abolish their mi [...]isteriall actions.

The ciuile Magistrates may not intermeddle with the exe­cution of the Pastors Office, as they do in delyuering their Sacraments, no more then VZZIAH might burne incense.

The example doth not hold: The BB^s. were Ministers before they were ciuile Magistrates.

Yet the Doctrine holdeth; That the ciuile Magistrate may not administer in the Church, neither [...] man execute fuch diuerse Offices.

Though it be vnlawf [...]ll, yet their ministeriall actions are not vnlawfull.

It is not lawfull for a [...]inile Magistrate to [...] in the Ch [...]rch vvhilest he keepeth his ciuile office: But the BBs. are ciuile Magistrates, & keepe & [...]xecute their ciuile Offices: Therfore it is not lawfull for them to administer in the Church vvhilest they keepe their ciuile Offices.

Your Argument is not good; You put that in the conclu­sion, which you should haue put in the second Proposition.

I regard not the forme. If it be vnlawfull for them to ad­mi [...]ister, then their ministeriall actions are vnlawfull.

The Consequ [...]t of the Maior is denyed.

It of necessitie followeth: For GOD only wilbe serued in his Church by his owne Ministers & in the ministeric, by such as he hath appointed & called therevnto, all strange ministries & their ministeriall actions being an abhominatiō vnto him.

All their actions are accursed in the Lord [...] sight that pre­sume to offer in his Church in an office wherevnto they are not called of GOD, & their ministerie vnder the curse of KO­RAHS censure Nom 16. 40.

The Bi [...]hopps are not vnder that curse; For they are Mi­nisters.

What, & ciuile Magistrates also?

The Bishopps Office, as it is gyuen of the Prince, is ciuile; as they superintend diuers Flock [...]s & Pastors, they are [...] ­siasticall Officers.

This is a rare distinction to make one & the self same [Page 24] Office both ciuile & ecclesiasticall: I neuer heard that th [...] Of­fice of a Bishop was ciuile, or of anie such Office in the Church of GOD as a L. Bishop: And seing we are entred into speech of their ministrie, I would faine know what ecclesiasticall Office they execute iu [...]our Church.

They are Pastors.

Whie each of them doth superintend & ouersee diuers, yea many hundreth Flockes & Pastors: These are st [...]ange Pastors as euer I heard of.

I say not as they are Bishopps they are Pastors; But as they were Ministers of the Gospell before; which ministrie they haue not lost by being Bishopps.

You meane when they were Parish-Parsons: But that Office they haue forgon when they were made Bishopps.

That is not so.

The office of a Parson & the office of a Bishop are diuers & distinct offices of your Church: one man cannot be both a Bis­hop & a Parson.

A Bishop may be a Pastor as you call it a Parson.

Then a ma may execute diuers offices of your Church at one time: This was neuer heard of in the Church of CHRIST since the Apostles tyme.

Might not the Euangelistes also execute diuers offices, after the Apostles time?

I haue not read that they did: But you hold not your Bishops Euangelistes, yet they by your saying execute diuers ecclesiasticall offices at one tyme: As to be Parsons & Lord Bishopps, both which are distinct & diuers offices of the Church. Hold you it lawfull for one man to exercise diuerse offices of your Church at one time also?

To execute diuers Offices is vnlawfull.

But the office of a Lo. Bishop & of a Parish Parson are diuerse Offices of your Church which one man exerciseth: Therefore their ministeriall actions in these Offices are vnlawfull.

These Offices are not so diuerse to disanull their first ministrie which they had when they were Preachers.

These Offices are so diuerse as one man cannot execute them both, but he must of force do the one by his substitute: More­ouer, the Office of a Lo. Bishop doth abolish & swallow vp the other: For he cannot be both an Ouerseer of so many Churches and Pastors, & be a priuate peculiar Pastor of one Church too.

The Bishopps Office is but a ciuile addicōn which he ioyneth vnto his former ministrie.

Whie you see the office of a Lo. Bishop is one of the cheif ecclesiasticall Offices of your Church, and this office is who­lye conuersant in ecclesiasticall affaires.

They are Peeres & Lords of the Parliament house.

Yea, but spirituall Lords by vertue of their ecclesiasticall office: Therefore the Office of a Parish-Priest & of a Lo. Bis­hop are diuerse & distinct Offices of your Church.

Yet are they not so diue [...]se as by taking the Office of a Bishop they loose their first ministrie.

Euerie ministrie in the Church is belonging vnto & in regarde of an Office neither can be otherwise, or longer executed, then in that office to vvhich it belongeth: But the BBs. haue resigned that ecclesiasticall Office vvher vnto their first Ministrie belonged: Therfore vvhen they keepe not that office they cannot keepe that ministrie.

The Bishopps haue not resigned their fi [...]st Office.

It is manifest that they haue: For it is impossible that they should be both Superintendents ouer so manie Churches, & execute the Pastors Office ouer one Church togither.

Though one man execute diuerse Offices, his actions are not simple vnlawfull.

What a monstrous confusion & commixture of all GODS ordinances is made by this Doctrine of yours. GOD hath vt­terly forbidden anie one man to manage both a ciuile & ec­clesiasticall office at once: You (notwithstāding the Bishopps exercise both ciuile and ecclesiasticall authoritie, & execute many ecclesiasticall Offices of the Church) yet in this estate would haue their ministeriall actions lawfull.

Though to exercise diuerse Offices be vnlawfull, yet it is not so vnlawfull as to disanull their ministriall actions.

I haue proued that ecclesiasticall ministrie & ministration to be vnlawfull, which hath no foundatiō in GODS word: But this their mixt ministrie & confused ministracōn hath not only no warrant in, but is found expresslie contrarye to the whole word & Ordinances of GOD: Therfore this their mi­nistrie & ministeriall actions are simplie & vtterly vnlawfull.

Though a Tyrant be an vnlawfull Magistrate, yet may his actions in his regiment be lawfull.

You must make difference betwene the vsurping of a ciuile Office in a Common-wealth by a Tyrant, and the v [...]ur­ping of an ecclesiasticall office in the Church.

There is no comparison betwixt the regiment of a Tyrant in a Common-wealth, and the ministration of an vsurper or [Page 26] wre [...]ched person in the Church. With the first, we which are but subiects haue not to meddle, either to place or displace, but to obey in the Lord such Ciuile Magistrates as are set ouer vs of the Lord. The second, namely of all ecclesiasticall offices, we haue the sole choise & ouersight; power to create, power to de­pose: neither are we to suffer a [...]ie vnlawfull ministerie or mini­stration. But now to speake simplie of the regiment of a Tyrant as cōsidered in it self, it is altog [...]ther vnlawfull vnto himself, be­cause he vsurpeth that office by intrusion, contrarie to the lawe of GOD, and [...]hal therfore accompt before the Lord.

But in asmuch as the Bishopps were once lawfull P [...]stors they cannot loose their first office & ministrie; and so their mi­nisteriall actions (as preaching of the word & ministratiō of the Sacraments) are still lawfull.

They manie wayes haue forfeyted their m [...]nistrie & place, if so be it were so, by taking & executing two Offices, by taking other ecclesiasticall offices, & those such, as they cannot execute their Pastorall Office whilest they keepe them: Therfore they can be no Pastors, neither their administrations of the word & Sacraments whilest they remayne in this estate, lawfull.

They may notwithstanding these other Offices, execute their Pastoral Offices; as to preach the word, & minister the Sa­craments; which are the chief things of the Pastors Office.

They can not do these thinges duely, in asmuch as they can­not duely attend and watch ouer their peculiar Flock, whilest they keepe these other Offices: But I would fayne know of you, when they had this true pastorall office whereof you speake so much? For surelye if euer they were true Pastors they are now wondrouslie apostate.

When they were first made Ministers.

Your ministerie is large: Do you not meane when they were first made pari [...]h-Parsons?

They were then Pastors, when they were such Parsons as you terme them.

You hold then the Parsons Office to be the Pastors Office:

Yea.

I will let passe their hauing manie Parsonages, as also the insufficiencye of sondrie that professe the same: And only shew in generall why a Parish-Parson cannot be held a true Pastor, ac­cording to the Gospell & Testament of CHRIST.

The Parish-Pars [...]n h [...]th not the (1) NAME (2) OFFICE (3) CALLING [...] [...]is Office (4) ADMINIS [...]SRATION in his Office, (5) POVVER, [Page 27] [...]or that (6) MAINTENANCE of his lyuing th [...] [...] tr [...]e [...]astor [...]: Therfore a Parish-Parson cannot [...]e called or held a true Pastor.

The Antecedent is not true.

Let me proue it. First you see they haue a diuerse name, the one a Parish-Parson, th'other a Pastor.

No man of knowlegd will now call them Parsons.

This is the peculiar & proper name belonging to their Of­fice: therfore reserued as dounge to be cast in their faces by all haue that knowledg: Yea it is an open marke to euerye one that hath knowledg wherby to discerne them from true Pas­tors: [...]he true Pastor will neuer beare the marke & Caracte of the Beast of Antichrist.

The name is of no moment: What shall we call a Parson▪

A Parson, or Baals P [...]iest.

A Parson is called Rector in latine.

And I shewed you the last day, that his Romish name was one [...] the nam [...]s of [...] written vppon the heades of the Beast.

The Parson hath sondrie names in the Scripture: as an Elder, an Ouer [...]eer, a Steward &c.

But none of these names do distinguish his office, as the name of Pastor doth: But if we come to their Office we shall finde it as strange as the name therof.

Proue that.

If Mr. FOXE say truly, the Parsons Office tooke begyn­ning when the M [...]tropolitane Bishopps sprong, and were as their Baylifes: But it is the same Office that was & is execu­ted in the Romish Church; Therfore not the Pastors Office.

It is not the same Office.

The self same: You take it as they left it, as also all the ministrie you haue beside: Only you put in new men in those old Offices.

The entrance & ministration is qui [...]e changed: the Prie­stes wer [...] Massing & Sacrificing Priestes, prayed for the dead, worshipped Saintes &c. so do not we.

So do you also, your whole worship being changed but o [...]t of Latine into English.

We do not so.

We shall hereafter haue occasion to discusse these matters when w [...] c [...]me to handle your ministration: O [...]ly w [...] still finde the O [...]fice of the [...] the s [...]lf [...] that then it was, and this none know better th [...]n th [...]y that haue the [Page 28] giftes of the same Benefices. But I will draw an Argumen [...] from some Doctrine.

In the Church of Christ there is no ecclesiasticall Office [...]boue the Pastor: But in your Church there are sondri [...] ec [...]lefiasticall Off [...]ces abou [...] the Par­son: Therfore the Parsons Office is not the Pastors Office.

The Apostles Office was aboue the Pa [...]tors Office in the Church of CHRIST.

But that was temporarie & but for a time: we reason not what was, but what now is in the Church synce extraordinarie Offices ceased: We reade of no Office in the Church of CHRIST aboue the Pastors Office: Therfore it cannot be the Office of a Parson.

A true Pastor may exercise his Office vnder another eccle­siasticall Office aboue him.

God hath instituted no eccles [...]asticall Office a [...]oue him: Therfore he may exer­cise his Office vnder n [...] ecclesiasticall Office abou [...] him.

I deny the Argument: Those thinges are not now simplie vnlaw­full, which at some times were lawfull.

That is verie false: All things are now simplie vnlawfull which

are forbidden in the word of GOD as the Leuiticall Priesthoode & all extraordinarie ministries now are, which yet somtimes were lawfull.

Did not sondrye Pastors & Ministers exercise their ministrie vnder Diotr [...]phes?

Neuer that I euer heard of: But if they had, should it therfore be lawfull?

But if the Pa [...]tor should execute his Office vnder another ec­clesiasticall Office, should he therfore be no true Pastor?

A true Pastor cannot execute vnder another [...]cclesiasticall Of­fice in the Church of CHRIST; Therfore the question is vaine, the thing being vnpossible.

But if there be anie Office aboue him, should he therfore cease to be a Pastor?

What so euer ecclesiasticall Office is now aboue the Pastor is Antichristian, neither is he a true Pastor that exerciseth his Office vnder such.

I deny that.

VVhatsoeuer ecciesiasticall Office is not expressed in the Testamēt of CHRIST is Autichristian: But there is no mention of anie ecclesiasticall Office to be now aboue the Pa [...]tors Office in the Testament of CHRIST: Therfore [...]l such Offices as are aboue the Pastors Office, are Antichri [...]tian.

I deny the Maior: All ecclesiasticall offices that are aboue the Pastors Office are not Antichristian.

You may aswell denie the whole ministrie of the new Testa­ment, [Page 29] & bring in anie other: But thus I proue it.

CHRIST hath left a per [...]ect ministrie: Therfore nothing may be added vnto it. All other Ministries are Antichristian saue that vvhich CHRIST hath left in his Testament: But CHRIST hath left no such ministrie as these in his Testament: Therfore &c.

Though CHRIST hath left a perfect ministerie, yet all things that are added vnto it are not ANTICHRISTIAN.

Yes, all new ministries are ANTICHRISTIAN & he of ANTICHRIST that executeth, standeth vnder or iustifieth them: For he that bringeth in a new ministrie taketh CHRITS Office & sitteth in his place, & is that ANTICHRIST spokē of the Apo [...]tle 2. Thes. 2. and by our Sauiour CHRIST Mat. 24. & all that stand vnder such a new deuised ministrie stand vn­der ANTICHRIST.

Mr. SPERIN here would haue denyed the Bishop to be ANTICHRIST: But M^r. EGERTON willed him neuer to deny [...] that, which they had agreed vppon.

Do you hold the faith in respect of mens persons? [...]hal no more be trueth then you haue agreed vppon.

These Doctrines following were holden & affirmed by M^r. EGERTON in discourse with Mr. GREENVVOOD as M^r. BARROVV was writing other Arguments & Assertions.

That the true Church may be vvithout the povver of CHRIST to ce [...] ­sure & redre [...]e.

I neuer read of anie such Church in the Scriptures CHRIST hath giuen to euerie Church his power to censure & redresse.

Though we want Discipline, y [...]t we haue the power of CHRIST by the Scepter of his word in Doctrine.

By the word Discipline you turne away the whole prac­tise of the Gospel, neither are you gouerned by CHRIST his Scepter, howsoeuer you may take his word in your mouth.

That the name of a Bishop spoken of 1. Tim. 3. is on [...]y peculiar vnto the Pastor & Teacher; because it is said verse 2. he must be ap [...] to teach.

Though some particular rules in that generall Doctrine be only spoken of the Pastorall & Teachers Office, yet it is [...]uident by the whole scope of the place, that there are also [Page 30] rules gyuen for other Elders, which are also called BBs. in son­drye places of the Scriptures.

That no man may preach the vvord vvithout an externall calling.

Giftes of interpretations are sufficient calling to speake of the word in the Congregation, in due order & place.

That is not so.

VVe abstaine from Excommunication, because vve haue no Elder [...] as yet.

The Church is neuer without the power to excommunicate.

Our Pastors only now vvant some Censurers.

The lea [...]t member of the Church that is a Cōmunicant hath as much interest in all the censures of the Church as the Pastor, & haue equall power according to the rules of the word, to cen­sure the Pastor for errour or transgression, as the Pastor hath to [...]ensure them.

Almightie G [...]d, vvhose Spirit is one, and ioyneth in one all his elect v [...]ssells, in his good tyme bringing them forth from dark [...]es to light, gy [...]e you & vs [...]o be of one mynde, & of one iudgment in the trueth, to the glory of his owne name, our reioycing in his mereyes for euer, and the present conuer [...]ion of manie, to the [...]bedience of CHRIST.

SEing it hath pleased God, after our long imprisonment, once of late to send you vnto vs (by what meanes, or to what fur­ther purpose, we yet know not) to giue vs a beginning & [...]n en­trance into the discussing of his trueth, by some kinde of confe­rence: which, because it was not with that harmonye that it may please God to effect, if your heart as ours be set to know his will, and to proceede by one rule, euen the rule of his authenti­call Testamēt: We are moued to write vnto you, rather by your modest, honest, & sober behauiour shewed to vs the Lords most vnworthie witnesses, then for anie procurement of peace to our selues; For most of all we desire your saluation, and with all the good of manie, by the measure of spirituall guyftes gyuen you, and as we trust, you will bestow them to the furtherance of his Church. Yet in your last conference, (to speake the trueth) we found your spirit in no louing consent to the trueth, but dange­rouslie corrupted, or at least set to oppose with poysoned dis­tinctions by vaine philosophie, yea against that trueth your self would not insist to denie, whether to trye our strēgth or to abuse the hearers, or for endangering your self: Yet against al these PAVL saith we cannot anie thing against the truth but for the truth. We haue since often merueiled we heard no more from you, or of your estate, which thē was made manifest to be with­out promise, whiles you exercise a ministeriall function vnder ANTICHRIST, in a false office, vnto a confuse assembli [...] of all sorts of people, one with the world. Wherevppon, hearing no further yet of you, we thought it good, in tender care of your saluation, & for the aduancement of the Lords trueth, to shew you, so neere as our fraile memories could collect, the summe of such Arguments or Positions & Answers as passed betwene vs, hauing set downe nothing but that, wherof we haue the po­sitiōs to shew vnder wryting at that present, & honest witnesses to testifie our vprightnes herein: And least you should other­wise conceiue, that we should some wayes iniurie you, we haue sent you a Copie to pervse; and if you make yet anie other a [...]s­were to our Assertions, then there is conteyned, we freely gyue you libertie so to do: But cheiflie the end of our wryting is, to [Page 32] stirr you vp not to leane the matter thus, cōsidering the serious­nes therof, but eyther yeild thervnto, or procure some more large and free place & time to make our mynds plaine & Faith open one to another, that the truth may appeare, and they that depart from the same, be knowen. And the same vve vvryte vnto you herein, we hereby offer to all the rest of your fellow Ministers, our hearts (as the Lord knoweth) being opē to all men to their good, & the glory of our GOD the father of our Lord IESVS CHRIST: only the Lord delyuer vs from vnreasona­ble men, and suppresse all his aduersaries and opposers against his glorious truth, Amen.

The Lord Iesus open o [...]r eyes to [...]ee the truth, & sanctifie our tongues [...] pen [...]es to declare the same.

Ireceyued a Letter from you, & also a Conference in writing, Touching your Letter, this I answere. First for those poyso­ned distinctions you mentiō, if you had named them, I hope no poyson would haue appeared in them, except it had come from the contagion of your owne Spirits. Secondly for vaine Philo­sophie, if you meane therby (for other I remember none) that help which GOD hath lent vs by Logicke to reason breiflie and plainly, you do but as Brown [...] hath done, whose braynlesse rea­sons to pro [...]e the van [...]tie therof, are not only easie to be answe­red by other men, but also abundantly confuted by his owne practise, both in speach & writing. Touching your feined Con­ference, this I say. I finde in it some things wanting that were spoken, manie things expressed that were neuer spoken (no not ymagined on my behalf) & most things that were spoken, per­uerted: Finally, I finde it so full of partialitie, so voyd of vpright & true dealing, and so far out of order, that I haue neither lea­sure, muchlesse anie lu [...]t to deale with it. And if you shall pro­ceede to gyue out Copies, I shalbe readye to disclayme you wheresoe [...]er I come, not only for men voyde of pietie, but euen of ciuile honestie also. Now concerning a free conference, I haue neither powre nor will to performe it: my reasons I reserue [...] further oportunitie. But if you will deale with me, do [Page 33] this: send me vnder your hand some 6. or 7. (or as you thinke good for the nomber) of your cheif reasons, whie you refuse to come to our publique assemblies breiflie & plainly concluded; and I will (by the help of GOD) as my leisure shal serue, set you downe my answere in the like sort vnder my owne hand, with reasons why you ought to come. This course if you like I will deale with you as I may, otherwise I will not meddle. Written the 14. Aprill 1590.

Written by him, that not only desireth your good in the Lord, but also is ready by anie peaceable & christiā course of procee­ding, to furder the same.

MOre Grace & feare of GOD vnto you. This your replie vnto our Letter we haue receiued & read with litle comforte, per­ceiuing therby euen that smale sparke of hope (which began to appeare in you) to be vtterly extinct; the bellowes burnt the drosse wil not be purged frō the siluer, that there might proceed a vessell to the Fyner, so that the Founder should melt in vaine, where the Lord hath not made choise of the mettall. Greatly sorie we are to behold your f [...]arefull estate, who not being able to approue the ministrie you exercise, by the word of God, yet to your owne furder iudgmēt, & the seducing of manie soules, continue to plead for, & practize the same, for the feare of men & the loue of the world to auoide persecution, submitting your self, your whole church, ministrie & Doctrines vnto the pro fessed enemies of CHRIST & of his gospell, such whom your self hath confessed to be Antichristian▪ with whō you haue not ōly sit amongst the other Commissioners in Caiaphas house, but also by an especiall ticket according to their Mandat [...], were sent out amon­gest the chosen bande of their guard to feight against the poore persecuted witnesses of Christ, yea amongst the rest of your sub­ornate witnesses to lay in wayte against the bloud of the Saints; endeuoring by the deepe learning of Sa [...]an to entangle them into the same counterfet walking with your self, as also by your So­phisticall distinctiōs to obscure & turne away the truth, peruer­ting & cōfounding al Gods ordinaces, calling light darkenes, & darknes light; labouring to perswade, that one mā may execute both ciuile & ecclesiastical offices at once; Yea though he so do, yet his ministrie in both of thē is lawfull. Likewise, that though [Page 34] one man executed sondry Offices of the Church at one tyme, yet this his ministerie in them all is lawfull also; Yea though the Bishop execute a strange & tyrānicall ministerie, neuer read nor heard of in the Testament of CHRIST, vsurping authoritie ouer so manie Churches & Pastors, possessing the very Chaire of ANTICHRIST, corrupting & changing the whole ministerie and Ordinances of the Gospel&c. Yet are they to be esteemed true Ministers of CHRIST, & their ministeriall actions good. Theis & sondrye other enormous & blasphemous Doctrines you strowed emongst vs, and sought to confirme them by these & such lyke poysoned distinctions, Not simplie euell: Not simply vn­lawfull. Good in parte. Though it be vnlawfull to execute diuerse Offices, yet are not his actions therein vnlawfull; Though his Office he executeth in the Church be vn­lawfull, yet are his ministeriall actions lawfull. Of the substance of the essen &c. without which you cannot reason, nor by the euident testimo­nie of Gods word approue your doings vnto all men. Now let the christian, or but indifferent Reader, iudge of the leauen & poyson of theis distinctions & cauills, of what spirit they pro­ced and by whom they are vsed, whither by you or by vs. As for the opinions & name of Browne, there is no cause you should vp­braid vs therwith, he being a mā with whom we had neuer anie thing to doe, neither may haue in this estate of his Apostacy. He is now a member of your Church, toward whom (we thinke) you walke not according to CHRISTS rule, neither yet deale bro­therly with him (much lesse as beseemeth a guyde & teacher of the Church) thus to publish & raile of your Brother Browne, with­out and before christian admonition & orderly censure. But hauing thus behaued your self towards him that is so [...]ere vnto you, we must not think it strange if you multiplie your repro­ches vppon vs, that are deuided so far from you, as Sion is from Babilon. Cōcerning that Conference, or rather that summe of our conference, this we say. We, in all louing maner sent it vnto you to peruse & correct, or to shew your dislike wherein you iudged it faultye; Yea we gaue you free lybertie, if you disliked anie of those answers which you then made vnto our reasons, to alter & chaunge them as your self vppon better aduise should thinke meete: so loath were we to gyue you the least cause of offence, & so desirous to haue the truth further brought to light. which if you had performed with that faithfullnes and modestie that beseemed you, & we expected in so high causes, then had you not gayned this iust blame & publick infamie you now by these your dealings haue brought vppon your self. But in steade of this, loe you haue pronounced the whole wryting which we [Page 35] sent, feyned; Some things there vvanting vvhich vvere spoken; Manie things there expressed vvhich vv [...]re neuer spoken, nor imagined by you; And most things there spoken peruer [...]ed by [...]s: Finally, you found it so full of partialitye, so voide of vpright and true dealing, and so far out of order, as you haue neither leisure nor lust to deale vvith yt. First we say, there was no cause you should expect to haue euery thing wrytten, that was then spoken, both in regard of our fraile & slippery memories, as also that we sig­nified vnto you our intent to be but to summe vp the discourse of such cheif pointes as were then handled, willingly passing by other impertinent and lesse necessarie speaches. But yet, if you can call anie to remembrance which may anie way benefit you, or preiudice vs, if you shall signifie them vnto vs, we will most willingly insert them. For the order we will not greatly contend, because it is of lytle moment vnto vs; Yet is there cause we should aswell remember it as you, because we were both alyke in the action, & had the Propositions before vs, which you knowe were writtē, as the matters fell out in handling. But now touch­ing your other chardges of adding, peruerting, falsefying &c. Surely if theis things stoode thus, great were our sinne toward God & to­wards you; Yea woe vnto our selues, if we should walke vvith such festered consciences: Hovv should vve thē appeare before God or men vvith comfort? Though the measure of our gyfts be smale, yet God accepteth the vvorke of his ovvne Spirit: We need not, neither euer did defend his most plaine & pure truth against the most subtile & malignant aduersaries, vvith lyes, fal­sefying, sclaundering &c. muchlesse in this actiō as you chardg vs. No God is vvitnesse vnto our consciences, vvith vvhat care & vprightnes vve haue set dovvne these things, being guyltie to our selues of no such crimes as you accuse vs. Yea for our fur­ther clearing herein, vve haue set dovvne no one poynt of im­portance vvhich vve tooke not in vvryting from your ovvne mouthes, euen before your eyes, & read it in your presence, and in the hearing of sondry honest vvitnesses: vvhich Propositions & vvitnesses, still remaine to be produced in record of the truth, against you or vs, vvherein vve depart frō the same. And sure­ly much better had you prouided for your ovvne credit, and much more impeached ours, if you had set downe some perti­culers, vvherin vve had thus falsified & peruerted, before you had in this maner reproched vs, especially being requested ther­vnto by vs; vvho, not trusting to much to our ovvne memories, first sent our Copie vnto the vvitnesses, then vnto you, to cor­rect or reproue vvhat you dislyked or thought amisse therein, vve being alvvayes ready & most desirous to alter it, according [Page 36] to the truth: But you, as though there were no Iudge in heauē, no witnesses in earth of the things that passed betwixt vs, haue most boldlye, without all feare, shame, or truth denied euē what your owne mouth vttered, accusing vs as voide of all vprightnes & true dealing, full of partialitie &c. and all to hide your owne corrupt estate, & the vanitie & weaknes of your defenses from the eyes of the world: Not being able, nor daring to produce or alledge anie one pointe in perticuler, which we haue eyther falsified or peruerted, least you should be taken & reproued, as your associate M^r. SPERIN was this other daye in the excep­tions he tooke, both by theis written prapositions, & by sondry eare witnesses that were present vnto his face; Yea euen of that hey­nous perilous Propositiō which you now so faine would call backe viz. That you had agreed amongst your selues, that the Bishops be Antichristian. Wherevnto, though you were then enforced to yeild, through the ineuitable powre of God his word, wherwith you were pres­sed; Yet since, for the feare of mens faces, & to auoide per [...]ecu­tion, you haue both denyed the vndoubted truth of God, or that euer you spake the same, cōtrarye to your owne cōscience: Yea, for the preseruation of your worldly e [...]timation, & for this cor [...]upt dissembled peace, you hold with your LL^s. the Bishops, you are not ashamed vnto the rest of the vituperie wherwith you haue laden vs, to add theis most vnchristian & vndeserued threats; Namely: tha [...] you vvill disclaime vs in all places vvbersoeuer you come, not only for men voide of [...], but euen of ciuile honestie; and all this without either fault of offence made you at anie time, vnlesse to witnesse vnto that truth which we haue sene & heard, be so greiuous vnto you. Alas M^r. EGERTON, what shall you gaine by this? Suppose you to buyld or repaire your credit vppon or by the ruynes of ours? Can you immagine to stay the course of that truth which God hath sent forth by so manie witnesses which heard you? Or can you think by these vaine threats to stop our mouthes frō testifying or publishing this or anie other truth of our God vnto all men, by all meanes? We feare not the curse causeles, neither shunne we the light. Our Religiō & ho­nestie we willingly submit, both in this or in anie other thing we affirme or doe, to the christian iudgment of all men. The fur­ther you shall proceede in this intemperate & vnchristiā course, the greater shalbe your owne shame & iudgement, when God shall returne the venome and malice of your owne tongue into your owne bosome. In that you will neither meddle with the Conference past, nor accept of anie to come, the reasons you reseru [...] & keepe so secret, are manifest vnto all men: Namely because your [Page 37] deeds are euill and cannot abide the fierie tryall by Gods word▪ therfore seeke you by all meanes to hide them from the light; being for nothing so sorye, as that you cannot call backe that, which hath alreadye passed you; knowing that the further you meddle with it, & the more you stryue, the furder and faster you shal but entangle your self. Wherfore with one consent you & your fellow ministers, studie and stryue to suppresse that truth you cannot resist. But he whose eyes are like a flame of fyre, shall shortly discouer your practises, and fight against you with that sword of his mouth. As to your offer of answere by wryting vnto 6. or 7. of our cheifest reasons whie we refuse your publick assemblies, we hold it needles to trouble you with more, vntill you haue answered those vnanswerable reasons, brought in one sentence of our former letter vnto you against your owne coun­terfei [...] & antichristian ministerie, which you were sayd to haue deriued from, and to exercise 1. vnder Antichrist: 2. In a false of­fice 3 to a confuse assemblie of all sorts of people. All which se­uerallie, & plainely, are proued vnto you in that our conference with you; All which you haue willingly balked, as also denied what your self in the sayd Conference affirmed, and vtterly refused all furder cōference. Wherfore we cannot be induced to thinke, that you haue anie meaning christianly & freely to discusse theis points by wryting; especyallie, since you could by no meanes be drawen to wryte at our being togeather, yea you were afraide to speak what truth you knew. But we manifestly discerne this pretence to be but one of your sleights to vphold your crazed credit, & to withdraw vs, & the eyes of others, from theis vnre­couerable breaches, as though you had some better power or skill to defend your doings by writing, then either you haue done or dare yeilde to do by free conference of mouth. As to your disordered parish assēblies, wherein you will needs be still powred out in the error of BALAAM for wage, we haue lōg since prou [...]d them wholly Antichristian by sondry reasons, drawen from the descriptiō of the true established Church of CHRIST: which reasons, a yeare & a half since, were deliuered vnto some of your chief ministers, whervnto we neuer yet receiued anie answere. Wherfore we haue no more to say vnto you, but to desire you & them to looke to your estates, & no longer to seduce the people in the bye wayes of mens deuises, to their assured destruction, & your owne fearefull reckoninge, except God giue you repen­tance. Which grace that you may finde, we will not cease euer, so long as we may, to pray for you.

MOre truth and loue &c. The question I named (to my remem­brance) was, whether yt were lawfull to come to our Church assemblies, or no. But because that which you haue chosen tendeth to the same end, I willingli [...] accept yt. You [...] Arguments are three, and may be thus concluded. That minis­trie which is. 1. Deriued from, & exercised vnder ANTICHRIST. 2. a false Office 3. in a confused people, is not lawfull. But such is ours: Therfore our ministerie is not lawfull. For answeare wherof, I denie your Assumption or minor Proposition, and re­turne the same reasons vpon your head thus. That ministerie which is 1. Deriued from & exercised vnder CHRIST. 2. in a true Office 3. amonge a faithfull people, is lawfull; but such is ours. ergo. Proue your Assumption & I will mine: In the meane time I trust myne affirmation shalbe as authenticall as yours. Your Letter came the 2. of this 5. [...], & I write the 4. Valete; & [...]stote sani:

GRace vnto you from the Father of lightes, to see & yeild vnto the truth. Your Letter of the 4. of this 5. Moneth we haue receaued, & perceiue therby your Cōtrouersie (touching the truth of that Brief of our conference which we sent vnto you) to be ceased. And nowe your speach turned backe againe to the questiō there handled amongst vs; which we hoped to haue then beene thus far forth discussed & decided, that now you had no cause to denie or retract that, which there was enforced, & you cond [...]s­cended vnto; espeacially, without adding anie one reason vnto your former, or disprouing anie one reason brought by vs; ex­cept peraduenture you would haue your owne bare affirmation [Page 39] be held as authenticall with vs, as yt is with your miserable▪ Au­ditorie, that haue no power or freedome publickly to censure or reproue anie false Doctrines that you publickly deliuer. But for the truth & proof of these assumptious. we still refer you (as be­fore we referred you) to a furder consideration of that summe of our said conference, with somme better heed & conscience. Where you shall finde these things you now den [...]e sufficiently proued, & in effect wholy yeilded vnto by your self. For if these your lordes Arch-bishopps & Bishopps be agreed vpō amongst your selues to be that Antichrist, how should that ministerie which is Deriued from them, & exercised vnder them, be held the true ministerie of Christ, except the same ministerie may be deriued from, and exercised vnder two diuers heades, and those so cōtrary as Christ & Antichrist. Now that your whole ministerie is thus deriued & held of your Lordes these Arch-Bishopps & Bishopps, we hope we n [...]ede not stand to proue, neither dare stand you to denie: not so mich for breaking the oath of your Ca [...]onicall obedience, which you haue sworne vnto them, as least you be therfore called before them, scilenced, depriued, imprisoned by them. As to the people to whom you stand a Minister, they were all by your owne conf [...]ssions, immediatlie frō Idolatrie re­ceaued by constreint into your Church, without the preaching of the Gospell goinge before to call them to the Faith, or befor [...] anie Chri [...]tian voluntarie profession made by them in perticu­lar, to witnesse their Faith & true conuertion: But yt is manifest they all still remaine in the same confusion, disorder & seruile subiection togeather with you vnto these your Lordes Bishops, their Courtes, Officers, & Canons: Vnto which people, in this estate, you for the wage & hire of BALAAM are powred forth, and administer the Sacraments to them, by your Lord Bishop his Cōmandement, & that in a Doctors Office, as you pretend▪ Or els at such times flee touche, and hide your self out of the way, withdrawing your self frō their fellowship at such solemn [...] feastes as this your Easter &c. when, by the lawes of your Church▪ you were to administer the Communion vnto them. Thus you may see your naked deniall, nor all the Conning anie of you haue, wil not serue to couer, mich lesse to cure, these Egiptian ma­lignant vlcers that are founde vpon the mē that haue the marck of the Beast, & that worship his Image. Wherfore we still exhort you, in the name & feare of God, not anie lōger to striue against the prickes, or gnawe your tongue for grief, remayninge imp [...] ­nitent & hardened in your vngodly workes: But rather (whil [...]st grace is offred) to purge your self through vnf [...]yned repentance [Page 40] in that fountaine which is opened to the house of DAVID for sinne & for vncleannes, by forsaking your euill wayes & Anti­christian ministrie, and now yet at length taking vp your crosse, to ioyne your self vnto the holie army [...] of Saintes, that war in all faithfull and patient maner, vnder the conduct of the Lambe, against all the trumpery & tyrannye of Antichrist; that so you may haue comfort & assurance vnto your owne soule. Which grace that you may find, & shew; vve shall not cease hartely to praye, and by all the meanes we may, to procure vnto you. In the meane time wishing you so to fare & prosper, as your soule prospereth, and as you walke according to the rule of Gods word.

HENRY BARROVV IHON GRENEVVOOD Prisoners for the truth of the gospell and wi [...]nesses against all Antichrists marcked souldiours & proceedings.

In that you receiued our second Letter no soones, you are to impute yt to your owne absence, that could no sooner be spo­ken withall by our Messenger, who was at your house to de­liuer yt you, vpon the 18. of the 4. Moneth, and at sondrie other times since.

Written this 5. day of this 5. Moneth.

MOre truth & loue to you &c. Because your Letters receiued the 6. of the 5. Moneth, hath in it as manie lyes, as myne to you (to my remembrance) hath lynes; I thinke it the best course to set them before you, to moue in you some remorse; except it be with you as the Prophet saith [...] impius erubescere. 1. ThatLyes. my bare affirmations are held authenticall of my auditorye:1. 2. That it was sufficiently proued the last conference, our BB^s.2. were that Antichrist: 3. That it was in effect wholy yeilded vnto3. by me: 4 That it is agreed vppon amongst our selues, that they4. be that Antichrist: 5 That I haue broken my oath of Canonicall5. obedience: 6. That I haue sworne Canonicall obedience vnto6. the BB^s. 7 That I dare not deny their authoritie, for feare of sy­lence,7. prison &c. 8. That the people, by our owne confessions,8. were all rec [...]iued by constraint immediatly from Idolatrie into our Church, without preaching of the Gospell: 9. That all the9. [Page 41] people remayne still in the same disorder, confusiō &c. 10 That10 I am powred out in the wages of BALAAM: 11 That I admini­ster11 the Sacraments at the L. Bishopps Cōmandement: 12 That12 I hid my self at Easter: 13 That I am bound to minister the13 Lords Supper at Easter: 14 That I haue the marke of the Beast:14 15 That I worship his Image. What shalbe thy reward o thou lying tongue &c. Without shalbe doggs, enchaunters &c. and all that loueth & make [...]h lyes: If BARROVV and GREEN­VVOOD be so voide of grace, what should we thincke of that pitifull bande of seduced Schismaticks. The Lord giue you re­pentance Amen. 5 of Maye. 1590.

Theyr poison as the poison of a Serpent, As the deafe Adder s [...]opping [...] eare. Psal. 58.

THe Lord rebuke SATAN & iudge bet [...]ixt vs. This your reprochfull Letter of the 6. of this 5. Moneth, we receiued the 10. of the same Moneth. We fynde it so full of vanitie, vituperie, & blas­phemie, as it deserueth none answere or speaking of, eyther in regard of the matter conteyned, or Author thereof, were it not for the satisfying of others to whom these our cōtrouersies may come; Wherfore as your best profes either to conuince vs or to defend your self, haue hitherto bene the naked as [...]ertions & false chardg [...]s of your owne mouth, without a [...]ie place of Scripture or waight of reason aledged, so whē we shall make [...]ut a short & sudden demonstratiō of the truth of these Positions which you haue collected out of our Letter, and as rashly pronounced, lyes; we doubt not, your present euill estate & bad dealing shall as sodenly lye open vnto all men, & to your self also if you be not of those euill men and imposters the Apostle speaketh of, that shall goe forward to the worse, seducing & being seduced &c.

Touching your cattologue of lyes wherof you accuse vs, we thus through the grace of God shall cleare our selues, and shew the truth of as manie as we acknowledge &c.

The first Lye you chardge vs with, is, that your bare affirmations are held authenticall of your auditorye. Our answere is, That you haue drawen an absolute Proposition from conditionall words.

[Page 42]We in our Letter reproued you for not adding Doctrine to your lypps, some proofe to your assertions, saying; that except you would haue your owne bare affirmation to be held as authenti­call with vs as it is with your miserable auditorie, that haue no power or freedome publicklie to censure or reproue anie false Doctrine that you publickly delyuer &c. Here is in these words no vntruth; be your Doctrines neuer so blasphemous & perni­tious, your Church hath no power presently & publickly to cē ­sure you or them, but must ioyne vnto you still in prayer & Sa­craments, vntill their Lord Ordinarie redresse the matter; or if he will not, they must then swallow all vp, how impious soeuer they be. Lo [...]ke for this lawe in the booke of your aduertisments in the Articles for doctrine & preaching. Now howe far your Doctrines are authen­ticall to that woefull people, that haue no power in themselues to call them into question, to examin, trye, or censure thē, iudge you; Yea how Authenticall you would haue your owne bare af­firmations esteemed, let these your 3. letters shew; where you haue not added one reason to proue or disproue anie thinge you affirme or denie, but your owne bare word: But they must not be so with vs, who meane to examin them by the Scriptures be­fore we receiue them. The word authenticall peraduenture we had not vsed, had not you gyuen occasion in your former letter in these words. I trust my affirmation shalbe as authenticall as yours. Which presumptuous words you would not haue vsed, if you had not thought well of your self, and some speciall authoritie to be gyuen to your words; As for vs, we seeke no credit furder then we speake according to truth; neither hold or would haue anie thing held authenticall, besides or with the holy word of God.

The second lye should be that it vvas sufficiently proued in our last Con­ference, 2. that your BBs. vvere that Antichrist.

2. This we doubt not to affirme, & you cannot deny but yourScriptures in steade of Lyes. Bishopps were there proued to vsurpe both Ciuile & ecclesiasti­call Offices & iurisdiction; that they hold & execute diuers ec­clesiasticall Offices of your Church at one time: as to be Doc­tors,Rom. 18. 1 Pastors, Superintendents, L. Bishops L. Arch-bishops; andRom. 12. 6. 7. 8. these togeather with their Ciuile Offices being Iudges in Courtes, Iustices of peace, manie LL^s. Palatyne, all Lords of1. Cor. 12. entier Parliament, & states of the land. That they vsurpe & exercise the whole power of the Church, in making ministers, in the vseMat. 20. 25 26. of excommunicatiō, hereby confounding & commingling theLuke. 12. 14 whole order of God, all the Ordinances both of Church and Common wealth, & inue [...]t all the Ordinances of CHRIST hisAct. 20. 29 Testament. It was there shewed and proued, that they whichMat. 18. 17. [Page 43] presume into CHRISTS place, vsurpe his title and offices, areDany [...]l. 11. 36. &c. those An [...]ichrists or that Ant [...]christ; and that your Bishops vsurpe CHRISTS place, in that they take and holde his Bride vnto2. Thes. 2. 4. thē, making the whole Church to heare their voice, & to beareIohn. 3. 29. their yoke of their antichristian burdenous tradit [...]ōs; that theyCam, 8. 12. vsurpe CHRIST his titles, CHRIST being the only Lord,Iohn. 13. 13. Arch-cheif, high Bishop of Bishopps, to whom all Bishops shall1. P [...]t. 5. 4. 1. Cor. 8. 6. accompt; And therfore these titles are vppon them but the na­mesReu. 13. 1. of blasphemye written vppon the heads of that Beast; That they vsurpe CHRISTS Offices, in that they take vppon them to rule & ouersee so manie Pastors & Churches, to walke in theReu. 1. 1 [...]. &c. middest of the 7. goldē Cādlesticks, to giue lawes to the church &c. To be short they were proued vnto you to be that Antichrist Iames 5. 12. or those Antichrists (for we hope you will not tye the title to thePsal. 74. person of one mā only) in that they change & inuert, yea ouer­throweDan. 7. 24. & cast out al the Offices & ordinacs which CHRIST hath appointed vnto his Church, euē the whole ministerie & Testa­ment of CHRIST; And haue in place therof brought in, &Reu. 9. set vp their owne new forged antichristian ministerie of Arch­bishopps, L. BB^s. Arch-deacons, Comissaries, Parsons, Vickers, Curatts, Deacons or halfe Priests, euen all the horned Cleargie, Romishe Officers, popish Courts, and innuberable enormousGal. 1. 6. 7. 8. Canons & Cōstitucōns of Antichrist: As also their newe deuisedMat. 15. 9. publique Liturgie, wherby the whole worship & ministracōn of your Church, yea vvherby the vvhole word of God is stinted1. Ioh. 4. 3. & lymited to Eaues, & Dayes, & houres, to fasts & feasts &c. vvhat parts & shredds therof they will haue read, what parts suppressed & cast out &c. Now if all these euident concurring peremptorie marks do not manifestly proue them to be that &Mat. 24. 15 those Antichrists, euen that abhomination of desolation standing in the holy place, let him that readeth consider. And for your furder assurance, let vs now ad vnto their barbarous hauocke, their dayly & beastlike crueltye, tyrannie, persecution & blas­phemie of the truth & seruants of CHRIST, and you may then (the Lord opening the eyes of your vnderstanding) euidentlyReuel. 13. & 17. see them to be that monsterous Beast, spoken of in the Reuelation. Iudge now in your self which way you could or can with all the learning you haue or want, with stand these reasons, or how all the false Prophets that flowe from & guarde the throne of Anti­christ, can finde anie phisique or Baulme for these wounds of the Beast.

So then your 3. & 4. Lyes That it should be in effect vvholy yeilded vnto 3. & 4. by you 4. And agreed vppo [...] a [...]ongst your selues that the BBs. are Antichrists. [Page 44] We hope will not proue so incredible; especially when they shalbe confirmed to your face (as they were vnto your fellow M^r. SPERINS) by sondrye credible eare witnesses that were pre­sent, if you continue so shameles to denie it.

V [...]to your 5. Lye That you haue brokē the o [...]th of y [...]ur Canonicall obedience. 5. We answere that you greatly mistake the matter, we neuer so sclaundered you; we always thought you ouerwell obserued that vngodly oath: Our words in our letter were, that we neede not stand to proue that your ministerie was deriued from, & ex­ercised vnder theis BB^s. neither durst you stand to denie it; not so much for breaking the oath of your Canonicall obedience vvhich you haue sworne vnto them, as least you should ther­fore be called before them &c. Here leauing the whole estate of the BB^s. vvho were proued by vs, and confessed by you to be A [...]tichristes, as also passing by the present estate of your owne mi­nisterie, which is deriued from & exercised vnder them, & ther­fore proued vnto you to be Antichristian, vnlesse yt & you may belong vnto, & stand vnder two diuers heads, and these so con­trary as CHRIST & ANTICHRIST. But all these waightie matters you vvillingly passed bye (after the maner of all timeseruing Pharises) and picking a quarrell at these 3. points in your 5. 6. & 7. Lyes: the vvorst vve vvish you is, that you had neuer made, or els had now broken this vngodly oath, & that you had clearly cast of their antichristian yoke, & had deliuered your soule from them, and that you durst indeede boldly speake & stand against their Antichristian authoritie & vngodly proceedings: vve are willing vppon theis condicōns, for your so great good, to suffer more then a lytle reproche.

The 6. Lye should be That you haue sworne C [...]nonicall obedience vnto the 6. BBs. We finde the lawes of your Church to be, that none be suf­fred to preach or administer in your Church, or be made full Priest, except he first sweare his Canonical obedience vnto his Ordinarie, diligently to appeare at his Courts, & to obs [...]rue their decrees: none may preach without the BBs. licence, or if he speake against anie thing by publicke authoritie established, or by the same authoritie that shalbe established in your Church hereafter. These lawes we finde genērall, & no particuler excep­tion to the same; therfore we see not how or whie you should more be exempt from this oath, licence, lawes, then the rest of your bretheren & fellow Priests. Furder, you do preach & ad­minister after these orders & Canōs prescribed by your LL^s. the BB^s therfore it is likely you haue takē the same oath & licence, or that which is all one, it is most sure you stand vnder the [Page 45] same Antichristian lawes & yoke.

We will beleue your 7. to be a lye when you shall haue forsaken your Antichristian ministerie, which you now execute &c. and speake & suffer boldly & sincerely against the BB^s. authoritie & proceedings: till then you must beare with vs if we esteeme you as we finde you, & g [...]ue no credit to your ambiguous speaches, wherby we know not whither you will or will not speake against the BB^s. authoritie.

This your 8. lye That the people by you [...] confessions vver [...] all receiued by con­straint 8. ymmediatly from Idolatry into your Church vvithout preaching of the gospell you haue halfe marred by the Figure of Omissio [...], in an euill con­science leauing out the one half of your matter, least if you had iustly reported it, you might haue bene ashamed to haue called it a l [...]e; seing it should to all men appeare a most manifest truth, confirmed by the times past & pres [...]nt. Let vs therfore help you out with the rest, that the lye may be more notorious. It follo­weth in our letter thus. To call them to the faith or anie Christian & volun­ [...]rie profession made by them in particuler to vvitnes their faith, & tr [...]e cōfession. Now you haue your whole tale, let vs see with what face or truth you ca [...] denie this: At the first planting of your Church in the begynning of our Queene Elizabeths reigne, & for your confession we haue the effect of this vnder your f [...]llow M^r. SPERIN his hād, which being read before you & reported vnto you, you neither gainsay [...]d it in anie thing, neither would or could stand to iustifie their order in the first establi [...]hing of your Church.

Your 9 Lye is t [...]at all the p [...]ople remaine still in the same disorder confusi [...] &c. 9. That litle which you here also by the same figure in all euill con­science suppresse, would haue done better in this place then &c. and peraduenture might so haue cleared the pointe, as it might haue saued both you & vs from the imputation of this lye also. the words that lacke are these, and seruile subiection vnto these your Lord Bishopps, their Courts, Officers & Canons tog [...]ather vvith you. put it now to­geather & see if you can denie it, or ani [...] part of it. It is manifest you still haue and reteine all the same p [...]ople or their seede in the same confusion, false worship, the same Antichristian ministerie & ordinances, no seperation, no reformation as y [...]t made: this, that our Conference, but the present estate of your C [...]urch best of all sheweth.

And these things stāding thus, your 10. Lye will likewise proue10. a truth to your f [...]rder chardge. viz. that you are poured ou [...] in the vvages [...]f Balaam. Seing you still administer to this prophane miscelyne people in this confusion, subiection for their hyre &c. we need not doubt with the Apostle Iude to say that you are powred out inIude. 11. the error of Balaam for vvage; and with the Apostle Pe [...]er, that for­ [...]aking2. Pe [...]. [...]. 15 [Page 46] saking the right way you haue gone astray, following the way of Balaa [...] of Boz [...]r that loued the wage of iniquitie, thinking that1. Tim. 6. 5. g [...]yne is godlynes, making marchādise of the word like an hire­ [...]ing:Iohn. 10. 12. 13. Yea it were no hard matter to proue, that you maintaine the Doctrine of Balaam that taught Balac to set a trap before the [...]. [...]. 14. children of Israel, to eate things sacrificed to Idoles & to cōmyt fornication; If your sitting in Commission in Caiaphas hall with that old false Prophet of Londō, your finger in his bloudye Mand [...]te by name & especiall ticket, your subtile cōference with CHRISTS persecuted seruants in their Prysons, & your continuall clamors in your Pulpit, were duely skanned.

That you do or ought to administer the Sacramēts at your Lord11. Bi [...]hops Comaundement, is manifest in that you are full Priest, Euerie full minister of your Church, ought by the lawes of your Church, & may deliuer the Sacraments. That we here vrdge not your Lord BB^s. late edict vnto all Curats or hireling Preach [...]rs that were full ministers, to that effect.

That you hid & with drewe your selfe from the fellowship and12. Cōmunion of your parishion [...]rs & flocke at your last Easter, lea­uing them to the ministerie & conduct of your dumbe Pastor, is to be proued by manie witnesses, & the words of your owne wife and seruants vnto our messenger that was to d [...]lyuer our letter vnto you, if you might haue bene then founde.

And that you & all the Curats & full Priests in England are by the13. lawe of your Church bound to administer the Communion at Easter, peruse your Por [...]uis or seruice-booke better.

That you haue the marke of the Beast & that in the foreheade is mani­fest;14. in that the Arch-bishops & BB^s. are proued that Antichris [...] that Beast, & you stand a waged Minister vnder th [...]m by their li­cence, in their kingdome.

That you vvorship the Beast his Image is as manifest; in that you ad­minister15. by the constitutions & decrees of their deuices, seruice­booke or liturgie, which is set vp in al your Churches; vnto & by which you burne your incense, ioyne & applie your Doctrines & preachings, els could you stand no minister in their market.

Thus may you see all your lyes retourned home to their resting place to the land of Shinar euen your owne bozome, frō whence they proceeded; thus may you see your self taken & ensnared, euē in eu [...]ry word that hath come out of your mouth; thus may you s [...]e, the furder and more you striue against the truth, the fur­der and faster you entoyle your self. How much be [...]er therfore were it for you to wash your self in that fountaine which was shewed you zach. 13. and with the false Prophet there, to be asha­med of your vision & rough gowne to deceaue; acknowledging [Page 47] the [...]e woun [...]s to be giuen you in the house of your louers, then thus to fulfil the words & iudgmēts of God in your self, in gnaw­ing your tongue for griefe, & casting the poisoned darts of yourReu. 16. [...]0. virulent tongue at the innocent, euen thē that se [...]ke your good. Take heed & be warned, you were told of these iudgments, and may see how they are daily more & more fulfilled vppon you; take heed you be not iudged of your owne mouth, & be shut out with those lyers, doggs, & enchanters you mention. Your lyes you see whither they are retourned, & vppon whō they rest: how you haue barked at & bittē, not only vs, but all the deare seruāts of God, and faithfull witnesses of CHRIST, speaking out of the mouth of that Dragon, & of that Beast, & o [...] that false P [...]ophet, by this blasphemie in your letter appeareth. The enchanters you speake of, are those false Prophets that do their miracles before the throne of the Beast; those merchantmen, that help to decke and adorne the harlot the false Church; those mediciners, that seeke to heale the wound of the Beast; those deceiuers that by the effectuall working or SATAN in all power, & signes, & lying wōders seduce such as receiue not the loue of the truth, that they might be saued; those Sorcerers that did al their miracles in Egipt still to kepe the people of God in bondage and to hinder them from their iornye toward Sion, that resist the truth as IANNES & IAMBRES withstood MOSES, whose madnes as it was made kowē vnto all men, so shall yours also be. As you haue alledg [...]d, these Ly [...]rs, Doggs, enchanters shalbe reiected in the buylding of Sion, shalbe shut out of the heauenly Ierusalem the Church & Bryde of CHRIST; but the Beast shalbe taken, & with him the false ProphetReu. 19. 2 [...] ▪ that did these signes before him, in which he deceaued thē that receaued the marke of the Beast, and that vvorshiped his Image: these two shalbe cast aliue into that lake of fyre burning with brimstone. Be warned therfore and tremble, consider of your estate: God send you of his grace.

Except your letters hereafter be cea­soned with more grauitie & grace, we shalbe vnwilling to receiue anie more of them, or at the least forbeare anie further to answere or fol­lowe you in this vntemperate course; leauing you to the iudgment of God for all the wicked sayings you shall speake against the seruants & truth of CHRIST, which you cannot impunge.

AT the first being set downe at the Table, M^r. SPERIN vsed certaine speach openly in way of prayer.

Wh [...]e do you here take vppon you to offer vp the prayers of vs all without our consent, we not being met togeather to that pur­pose [...] but as you know differing in iudgment, & disa­lowing your Church & ministrie.

I vsed it for my self & such as would ioyne vnto yt.

If for your self, yt was to Pharisaicall, & not to haue bene pub­licke: As for vs, you know we would not ioyne vnto yt.

All actions ought to be vndertaken with prayer going before.

But prayer ought to be made with one accorde, where with one mynde & one mouth they may praise GOD the Father of our Lord IESVS CHRIST Rom. 15. 6.

CHRIST & his Apostles vsed prayer when they reasoned with the aduersarie.

That is not so. vvhere finde you that?

Your prayers & all your actions are accursed in this popish mi­nistrie you execute.

None will say so but such Schismatickes as you, that haue rent your selues from the Church.

Yt should seeme you know not what either a Schismaticke or the true Church is: Haue we so largely disprooued your church vnto you at your former being here, yet you now call vs Schis­matickes, not being able to approue your Church.

You neuer could disproue our Church.

We proued yt vnto you to consist of a confuse assemblie of pro­phane people, receiued immediatly from open Idolatrie vppon one day by constreint without anie instruction in the word of GOD going before into your Church, this ministrie, Sacra [...]ēts, worship set ouer them, which you confessed and would not ap­pro [...]e.

It is not so; I neuer denied yt to be a Church.

Will you now denie yt? I will produce your owne hand against you. And fetched a paper vvhere indeed that Proposition was not but some Argument [...]s insuing thervppon. Whervppon M^r. SPERIN began to insult. T [...]e Proposition indeed being vnder his hand i [...] an other paper, vvhich I then remembred not

There are manie witnesses of this assertion. But I will bring you [Page 49] vnto it by circumstances, or conuince it by profe. Did you not denie to meddle with that time, because neither you nor I were of age to remember yt?

That is true.

You then confessed, (& it is manifest) that all the people were then receiued to the Sacramentes, without anie conuer­tion by Doctrine.

You confessed also that this was done by force, & did not alowe therof.

Neither doo I now alowe of it, if it were so.

Whie should you make question of so cleare a thing? we proued it: as also that all your parishes now consisted of the same people & their seed, had still the same ministrie, worship, gouernment &c.

I then denied & still denie, that the people or ministrie are the same.

There is now great alteration in the Faith & knowledge of the people ouer was then.

Had you not thē a ministerie set ouer an ignorant people, and haue you not the same ministerie ouer the same people & their seed now?

The people are now vvonne to the Faith.

But haue you not still the same ministrie which was then set ouer them in this disorder and confusion? hath there since bene anie seperation or amendement emongst you? remayne you not in the same sinnes still? vvhat change can you shew vs?

Are not all still of your Church? Or what wicked man of the land is not of your Church?

Such Schismatickes as you, are not of our Church.

You know neither what a Church or Schismaticke is: You can neither proue your Church, nor shew vs Schismatickes.

You are such Schismatickes as were in the Church of Co­rinth & are spoken of 1 Cor. 1. 10.

You reade there of no Schismatickes in the Church of Corrin [...]h, neither vnderstand you that Scripture aright.

I will reade the Text. Now I beseech you bretheren by the name of our Lord Iesus Christ t [...]at yee all speake one thing, and that there be no Schismes [...]mongst you: But be you kint togeather in on [...] minde & in one iudgment. Are not here Schismatickes spok [...]n of?

What then?

Then were there Schismatickes.

It should seeme you know not what a Schismaticke is, that can put no differēce betwixt a Sectorie & a Schismaticke. The [Page 50] Apostle there speaketh of Sectories, & not of Schismatickes.

Th'apostle there speaketh of Schismatickes, such as were vai [...] glorious & despised them that taught sincerelie.

The Apostle there speaketh of Sectories, such as you are: that sought to drawe the people after them, & to ha [...]e thē to follow, heare, & relye vppon themselues: so that some would heare one man, some an other, according to their ytching humors: which Sectories were Teachers in the Church; neither doth th'apostle there speake of Schismaticks. A Sectorie is alwayes one that rai­seth factiōs in the Church; a Schismatick is he vvhich draweth from the fellowship, and rendeth or s [...]ereth himself from the Church, of whom you reade H [...]br. 10,

The word Schisme is a generall word, & is read promiscuè.

That is true. A Sect also is conteined vnder the word Schism [...].

The Apostle vseth the word [...] therfore they were Schismat.

Can you not yet learne a bett [...]r constructiō of this word Schis­mes in this place? M^r. COOPER hath taught you a better cōstruc­tion: You will not say that these were cut from the Church?

Whie not?

The 11. verse of the 1. Chapter of the Epistle sheweth that they were of the Church for it ha [...]h bene declared vnto me (my brethre [...]) that there are c [...]ntentions emongst yo [...].

They were famous Teach [...]rs of & in the church, therfore they were not cut off, or Schismaticks.

1 Cor. 11. It is said that there shalbe Schismes & heresies emōgst them.

I grant well: what of that, therfore hereticks & Schismaticks are of the Church: You will not conclude so?

Schisme & a Schismatick are Coniugata.

By your Logicke & propha [...]e Artes you peruert the trueth of the Scriptures.

Logicke is a helpe to the vnderstanding of the Scriptures.

You make it a cloke for your wickednes, with shiftes to torne away the trueth.

You can put no difference betwixt a Schisme & a Schismatick, the offense & the Offender.

There cannot be a schisme, but there must be a schismaticke.

But may not the Apostle speake of a schisme where he spea­keth not of a schismatick.

There may a schismatick arise in the Church, & yet not be of the Church: as Antichrist is said to ari [...]e in the Church of GOD, yet is not of the Church. He cannot be a schismatick, vntill he haue cut himself from the Church.

Th'apostle saith there were Schismes & Schismaticks emongst thē, for some held of Paul, some of Apollo, some of Cephas. But Christ is not deuided.

The Apostle th [...]re speaketh of such sectorie Teachers & people following them, as thus were led into partes & factions of such Teachers as bo [...]sted of their giftes, & of the nombers they had baptized, & that followed them: Yet all this sheweth, in that they were still Teachers & baptized, that they were still of the Church, & not Schismaticks.

But if you had iudgment dulie to consider of this place, you should finde the faultes there reproued to be foūd mich more rife vppon the Teachers of your Church then they were in Co­rinth, where are almost so mainie Sectes as Teachers.

It is vnderstood of such Brownistes & Schismatickes as you are.

It is your custome to blesse Christs enemies and blaspheme Christs seruāts. We are no Brownistes, we hold not our faith in res­pect of anie mortall men, neither were we instructed by him or baptised into his name, vntill by such as you we were so termed. Schismatickes we are not: we hold cōmuniō with all Christs ser­uāts in true Faith & [...]oue: ōly we haue seperat our selues frō the false church & false ministrie, which we haue p [...]oued you to be.

BROVVNE is an Apostata, now one of your church; you re­ceceiue all such Apostataes frō Christ: we neuer had anie thing to do with BROVVNE, neither are we members of your Church.

You were somtime a Minister of our Church, were you not? & now are gonne backe.

Seing this matter cōcerneth me, I pray you giue me leaue to [...]hew thē what kinde of Ministrie I then had, & whie I left yt. I was somtimes indeed a Minister of your Church, after your popi [...]h orders; but finding my ministrie to be wholie vnlawf [...]ll in the verie Office, entrance and administration, by the rules of Christs Testamēt, I, according to the Cōmandemēt of GOD zecha. 13. Hezr. 2. and as manie places as commaund to absteine from [...]uill & to do that which is good, by repentance left yt.

Because there were some corruptions in yt, will you ther­fore forsake your whole ministrie?

My ministrie was wholy euill, both in office, entrance, & administration, so that I left yt not for some corruptions. But if you can proue [...]t to be a true & lawfull ministrie, though with some corruptions, wherof I may repent & yet keepe my mini­strie▪ I will willingly go out of pryson with you, and labour in yt againe.

And if you can proue it wholie vnlawfull, I will leaue my ministrie & come & sit with you in pryson.

It is not in your power so to do, repētance is the gift of GOD.

It is writt [...] Reu. 16. that wh [...]n the sinnes of the false church shalbe discouer [...]d, the Ministers therof shalbe so far from repē ­tanc [...], [Page 52] as they shall g [...]awe their tōgues for sorrowe, & blaspheme the GOD of heauen. Let vs then haue penne and ynke, that our reasons & answers may be set downe.

To what purpose? You seeke writing buth to catch.

We seeke vvriting to auoide sclander, & that the trueth might the better appeare, when both our reasons and answeres are set downe.

It vvere but to spend time: I will not write:

Let vs growe to some head: vve will vvrite though you vvill not. Let me shew you my Ministrie that I had in your Church I pray you. I vvas first made Deacon by the Bishop of London, to no peculiar Congregation: afterward made full Priest by the B. of Lyncolne, you know after what a popish order.

Because there might be some defaultes in your entrance, do you therfore think all your ministrie vnlawfull?

If I had no true entrance vnto the ministrie, & yet should ex­ercise a ministerie, I were in the nomber of those whom CHRIST pronounceth thieues & murderers Iohn. 10.

Though there be defaults in your entrance, your ministrie may be lawfull. You must proue your whole ministrie vnlawfull.

My ministrie was vnlawfull, both in the entrance, Office & ad­ministration: therfore wholie vnlawfull.

Our ministrie is not wholie vnlawfull in the entrance, Office, & administracōn.

I will beginne with myne entrance, which I thus proue to be vvholie vnlawfull. There vvas no Flocke called me to the ministrie. therfore [...] could haue no lawfull calling to exercise anie ministrie in anie Office vnto them.

You might be a Minister & exercise your ministrie vnto them, though you were not called by them; because you might offer your giftes vnto them, & so be a Minister by an inward calling.

Though this be no answere to my Argument, yet let it be set downe in wtiting. Whervppon this Proposition was set downe.

It may so fall out some times that a man, not being called of the Flocke, may ye [...] offer his ministrie vnto the Church; and that shalbe a [...] calling for him to be either Pastor or Doctor, because ther is an inward calling.

Do you hold that by an invvard calling a man may exercise an Office in the Church of GOD vvithout an outvvard calling ther­vnto? If I should hold it, I should quicklye be dravvne forth for an Anabaptist.

With theis circūstances he may: As a man indued vvith giftes should offer thē in pitie & compassion vnto an ignorant p [...]ople.

But vvhither doth he offer himself as a minister, or as no Mi­nister vnto them?

He offreth himself as a Minister by an inward calling.

He could not offer himself as a Minister vnto them, be­cause he had neither Office nor calling vnto the ministrie be­fore.

He may be a Minister Pastor or Teacher before he be cho­sen of a Flocke, because he may haue an inward calling.

No man can be an Officer in the Church, except he haue a true outward calling thervnto.

You hold him no true minister, without he haue a perfect calling.

I pleade not for perfect outward calling, but for a true outward calling.

Then you grant that though there be some defaults in his outward calling, yet he may be a true Minister.

We are so far from looking for a Church or ministrie with­out faults here in this life, that we affirme ther cā be no church or ministrie here without fault.

But you goe from the question: vve reason not of a per­fect, but of a true outward calling, without which there can be now no true Minister in the Church. Answere therfore directly to the Argument, either denie or affirme.

We will answere by distinguishing: and repeated their first Proposition. That a man by his inward calling might be receiued as a Minister of the people, without an outward calling.

[...]hen you denie my Proposition That of necessitie euerie true Minister must haue a true outward calling to his Office.

A man may be a Minister without a true outward calling in an extraordinarie time, hauing an inward calling.

The rules of CHRISTS Testament are now perfect, & per­petuall in all times: therfore there is no such extraordinarie time, that anie man may take vppon him a ministrie without a true outward calling according to the rules of the word.

LVTHER & CALVIN &c. were true Ministers in theis extraordinarie times without a true outward calling.

We are not now to cōtēd about their ministrie, they are now dead: will you oppose their ministrie against the rules of CHRISTS Testament? We affirme no man can be a true Minister, without a true outward calling thervnto.

We do affirme that ther may be a ministrie without a true outward calling: But by circumstances.

This is contrarie to your former Assersion: that ther might be a Minister without an outward calling at all [...]t supra. [Page 54] Answere therfore directly, yea or n [...].

His offring, his guifts vnto the people, & their receiuing of him is some outward calling.

Hold you this a true & sufficient outward calling?

For such times as theis, I hold it a true and sufficient outward calling.

An vnbeleeuing people cannot call or elect a minister: But you confesse the people to be such.

He may be a Ministe [...] to the people, they accepting of him, be­fore they be called to the faith: How els would you haue them called to the faith?

Not by placing CHRISTS Ministrie ouer an vnbele [...]uing people. The infidels ought to heare the word, but cānot chuse a Minister

Thus he may be a Minister. The people, vvhat people soe [...]er, bef [...]re they be called, are to take this man thus offring himself as a teacher vnto them by his i [...] ­vvard calling, as a Minister in the offic [...] of Pastor or Teacher.

May the Sacramēts then be deliuered to an vnbeleeuing people?

Not before they be taught.

Is anie of the flocke & yet incapable of the Sacraments, or may there be a Pastor & a flocke & yet no Sacraments deliuered?

As they are instructed they are to haue the Sacraments deli­uered vnto them.

But all your people receiue the Sacraments, all being baptised without the exceptiō of anie, either hereticke, witch, or Cōiurer & their seed before they were instructed, & you stand ministers vnto such.

This is but your sclander: we stand ministers to no such.

Let the Prisons and estate of the land be searched whether the [...] be no such to be found: all the land is baptised in [...]our Church, and you stand Ministers to all the land in high sacriledge.

I deliuer the Sacraments to none, but vnto such vvhose faith [...] knowe.

Yt should seeme you know not what faith is, or vnto whom to deliuer the Sacraments: vvhat wicked person is ther in your Pa­rish, or in the vvhole land, that is not baptised & receiued to your Sacraments?

You iudge vncharitablie of the whole land: I pray what think [...] you of your self when you were of our Church.

I then vvas as you now are, and vvent vvhere I vvas ledd away vnto dumbe Idoles by such as you are.

You abuse the Scripture: The Apostle there speaketh of the heathen & of stockes & stones.

We leade you not to Idoles, neither to worship Images; theis are your sclanders.

I abuse not the place, neither sclāder you: We are ledd vnto Idoles vvhē we are ledd vnto such Ministers as you, which stand for that you are not in the Church, and are Idole Shepherds & Ministers zecha. 11. Againe you leade vs to open & grosse Ido­latrie; as the worshipping of dead Saintes & Angells; yea your selues vvorship Images, euen that Image of that Beast.

These are but your railings & sclanders: vve worship nei­ther Angells, nor Saintes, nor the Image of the Beast.

You giue vnto Angells & dead Saintes in your Church & solemnlie indict an Eaue, a day, on the one a fast, on the other a so­lemne feast, with an especiall vvorship deuised of purpose vnto peculiar Saintes & Angells, the day proclaimed and kept holie. Call you not this Idolatrie, do you not now worship Saintes & Angells?

We do not vvorship thē though we vse theis ceremonies.

You shew your self a man vvithout sence or shame. I pur­pose not at this time to meddle with your grosse Idolatries, it vvere from the purpose & an endles worke. Let me now shew you how you vvorship the Image of the Beast. You worship & vse in your worship the constitucōns and deuises of these Anti­christian Bishopps, as your seruice-boke &c.

You speake you know not what. You know not what the Image of the Beast is.

Yes, I knowe that speaking Image of the Beast vvhich is set vp in all your Churches, euen the humane constitutions of all theis Antichristian BBs; vvhich and vvherby, you and all your people vvorship. This I affirme to you & vnto all the world, to be that Image of the Beast: that [...].

All deuises of men brought into the vvorship of GOD are Idoles: as your [...]pochripha writings in stead of GODS spirituall worship.

That is not so; how proue you that?

I proue it by the second Commandement. Thou shalt no [...] make to thy self anie grauen Image or Idole.

Loe, you vnderstand not the second Commandement; Yt speaketh only of Stockes & stones &c.

See what a good Teacher you are that vnderstand not the Lawe, & yet vvould be a Teacher of the Lawe. The second Cōmandement is not only vnderstood of worshipping creatu­res, but of all maner false & deuised worship, when we worship GOD after the deuises of men.

It is not so, you vnderstand not this Commandement.

CHRIST himself so expoundeth yt Math. 15. you [...] me in vayne, teaching doctrines me [...]s precepts.

You are ignorant of theis Doctrines, are vnworthie to be [...] Pastor: for anie thing I haue seene in you, you vnderstand no Scriptures.

You haue verie shamefullie peruerted the place to the Corin­thes. which is spoken of dombe Idoles, stockes, & stones.

He vsed not the place of the Corinthes at all, but onlie spake according to that Phrase. So that if his Doctrine be true the p [...]ce hath no iniurie.

He vsed the place.

It is not so; I alleadged not the place: but onlie spake accor­ding to the phrase. We are Commaunded to speake with holie wordes, and as the words of God.

Speake of your conscience whether you meant not to vse the place.

I vse not to speake against mie Conscience in or for anie thing. I haue told you how [...] ment to vse the place: Neither can yt be otherwise collected from mie speach. But read you neuer, that our Sauiour Christ & his Apo [...]tles haue vsed places in the Pro­phets & Psalmes, and otherwise applied them then they were in their Context?

Those the Apostle there spake of, were the Idolls of the heathē, and to the heathē people, and therfore can not be applied to vs.

All Idolls are of the same nature & in the same detestatiō with the Lorde, whether they be blockes, or stockes, or spirituall Idols which are more subtile.

I haue shewed your Idolatrie to be grosse enough: as the wors­hipping of Saints, Angells, keeping holie Dayes & holie Eaues vnto them, holie fasts & holie feasts. But yt were a wearines to rip vp your popish, Iewish, heathenish ministrations.

Theis are but rayling & foolish wordes.

I pray you follow thē no furder. Let vs be no longer ledd away with their cauills, and by shifts from our present purpose; els we shall conclude of nothing.

I pray you then go to yt againe. For I am vvearied with them, & will no more deale with such vnreasonable men.

I can no longer stay I must be gonne. And so he arose vpp, & would haue broken of.

Wil you openlie declare that you had no purpose to edifie your selues or vs? vvherfore then did you come, vvill [...]ou conclud [...] of no pointe of Doctrine? answeare this Argumēt I beseech you.

E [...]ery true minister of the Church must haue election, approbation & ordi­nation, in and of a true Congregation of CHRIST. But you haue not suc [...] [...]lection, approbation, ordination, Therfore you are [...]o true minis [...]ers of CHRIST.

We haue election, approbation, ordination, in a Christian congregation.

That is not true. For neither haue you a people trulie called & gathered vnto CHRIST, nether were you chosen and ordeyned by the people, but by the Bishop.

Here must be noted your vncōstancie, that agree not vnto your self. Erwhile you defen [...]ed your ministrie by your inward calling without anie outward calling; and now you iustifie your outward calling. But let me not trouble you: follow your Argument.

I had the peoples acceptation when I was made Minister.

The peoples acceptation was but your agreement with them for you wadges.

That is not true. I could haue mie vvadges vvithout the peoples consent by law.

The lawe alloweth a Curate but tenne Pounds by yeare. but that vvill not cōtent you▪ you must therfore compovvnd with the people for more.

You could not haue the peoples acceptation, vvhen you were made minister, you had no flocke then.

Before you had a flocke M^rs. Lawson got a lycēs for you from the Arch-Bishop to preach in that Parish.

What office do you exercise in your Church M^r. COOPER? are you a Pastor?

I am no Pastor, I am a Doctor.

Ther is no such office in your Church. Euerie parish is but allowed his parson or vickar; endowed Curats or such Doctors are but the Parsons substitutes to help a dumbe or plurified Parson.

We haue the Doctors office in our Church.

It is euident you haue not.

You were made Minister by the B. before you came to your parish by Powles.

I was made Minister to a flocke.

That could not be, seinge you are no Parsō. You were made minister to anie that would hire you.

You are those [...] those wandring starres Iude speaketh of. like the Leuite that ran from place to place wher he might get the best wadges.

You falsly applie the Scriptures against vs. we are not those stellae Erraticae Iude speaketh of.

Yes, & in the error of Bala [...] being powred fourth for wadge. How manie parishes haue you beene at, runninge from one to an other.

Is it not lawfull for a Minister vpon some occasions to remou [...] from one Congregation vnto an other?

That Minister that forsaketh his flocke is an hireling, cōmeth but to robbe & spoile. But you both are placed in, and remoued from your flocke without the consent of your flocke; And are silenced in your flockes by the Bishopps, by whom you vvere made Priests.

We had not our ministerie from the B. but from a congregacōn

What cōgregatiō was that, whē each of you haue had so manie?

What if we were made by a Congregation of Ministers.

How can that be, can ther be a Pastor of Pastors, or a congrega­tion of Pastors. You were made Ministers by the BBs. and not by anie Christian congregation.

We had not our ministerie of the BBs. but by consent of a con­gregation.

Thus I proue you had your ministerie from the Bishop. By the Bishops calling you administer and by none other. Therfore.

We had not our ministrie by the Bishops onlie.

By the Bs. callings you administer, and without the Bs. calling you cannot administer. Therfore by the Bs. calling onlie.

We haue the Approbation of the congregation also.

You haue not. Your Curats (as is said) are made Ministers i [...] nubibus. vvithout anie flocke. Your Parsons are nominat by the Patron, & made by the B. Thus trust vpō the flocke without ei­ther the knowledge, priuity, approbatiō, or choise of the people.

The Patrons choise is the peoples choise.

How can you saie the Patrons choise is the peoples, when they haue neither priuitie, consent nor assent. Be the Patrō a woman, an Infant, an Ideote, haue he 40. benefices & those in all the pa [...]ts of the lande, such as he hath neuer seene or knowen, yet doth he present, & the people must accept.

I had the approbation of the flock before I went vnto the Bis­hop, and was a Minister before I was at the Bishop.

You could not haue your parsonadge before you had bene a [...] the B. neither be a Minister without the B. were you not a Minis­ter before you came to your flocke? answere directlie.

I was made Minister by a Bishop before I had the approbation of the People.

What truth or agreement is in your speach? Euen now you said your were a Minister before you came at the B. & had the appro­batiō of your flocke before. Now you say (which indeed is true) [Page 58] you were made Minister by the B. before you had the approba­tion of the people.

I meant the B. London. I had the approbatiō of my flocke before I went to him.

We reasoned all this while of the Bishopps indefinitely, and not of anie one B. more then of an other.

But to what end serueth now the approbatiō of the people, when you are made full Minister before.

I was a Minister in part, but no full Minister before I had the approbation of the people.

See how you intangle your self. How can you make this agree vnto your second Proposition. That you were made Mi­nister by a B. before you had the approbation of the people.

I hold not my self a Minister in the sight of GOD by the Bishops ordination, Vntill I haue the peoples approbation.

GOD seeth & knoweth all his workes from before all be­ginnings. GOD knoweth all that he hath appointed & set apart to the work of his ministrie, euen before he made them or in their cradles. So that God in his fore knowledg maie ordaine chosen vessells vnto his ministerie, which yet in the [...]ight of mē are not to be held Ministers, vntill they haue that lawfull calling which GOD hath perscribed thervnto. which calling, seing you want, you are to be held no Minister in the sight of men also. Moreouer, the B. without the approbation of your flocke or­deyned you a Minister. Now which way should you not hold your self a Minister after their Orders: Or to what end serued the ordinatiō of the Bishop, if you were not thē made Minister?

Here M^r. COOPER hasted away & said he could no longer tarie. vvhervpon we ended this general conference. yet notwithstan­ding (the chamber Dore being locked, & no Porter neere to let them out) M^r. COOPER vsed speach to the standers by which after followeth.

VVe haue omit [...]ed one especiall pointe that fell out in our Confere [...]ce not perfectly remembring the due place vvhere yt should com [...] in.

If you would not haue a ministrie sett ouer the vnbelie­uing people, how should the vnbelieuing people be called vnto the faith.

We shall shew you an other order to call the people to the faith according to CHRISTS Testament. And not without war­rant to sett the ministery of CHRIST ouer an vnbelieuing peo­ple, to the peruerting of all GODS ordinances, and committinge of Sacriledge, hauing no promise of anie action you do in that [...]state.

Which way would you then haue thē called, if they should not be instructed.

Both the Magistrate ought to compell the Infidells to heare the Doctrine of the Church, and also with the approbation of the church to send fourth meete men with gifts & graces to instruct the infidells, being as yet no ministers or officers vnto them.

Furder euerie Christian is bounde both in his familie & cōuer­sacōn to call others by all meanes he may, vnto the faith.

What if the Church be where ther is no magistrat? is there al­wai [...]s a magistrate?

Yea the Church ca [...]not be without a Magistrate, neither can ther be a Cōmon wealth or estate without a Magistrate. There is alwaies a M [...]gistrate, though not alwaies a Christian Magistrate.

Ther is not alwaies a M [...]gistrate.

Without a Magistrate there can be no society, no trade, no cal­ling had.

T [...]er hath not beene alwaies a [...] ouer the Church.

The Church hath alwaies beene in some common wealth or other. Ther can be no Common wealth without a Magistrate.

What Magistrate was ther in H [...]bells time?

When the Church and all the world was in ADAMS household he no doubt was a Father, a Magistrate, a teacher, a gouernour.

The [...] was no Magistrate ouer the Churche befor the lawe.

That is not so. was not Mel [...]hisedeck a Mag [...]strate.

Melchisedeck vvas a figure of CHRIST not an ordinarie King.

Doth not the Scripture say he was king of Salem?

Was not Abra [...]am a Magistrate ouer the Church?

Abraham was no Magistrate.

He was a Magistrate ouer his hou [...]hold, his house-hold vvas then the Church.

Was not Ioseph a Magistrate thinke you?

Ouer the Eg [...]ptians after the heathen maner.

Heathens ma [...]e be lawfull Magistrates ouer the Church also. But Ioseph was a Magistrate ouer the Church.

He was not a Magistrate ouer the Church.

He was a Magistrate ouer all Egipt & ouer all Pharao his seruāts. Bu [...] the Church was then in Egipt emongst Pharao his seruants. Therfore he was a Magistrate ouer the church, as plentifullie ap­peareth in the history: his brethren acknowledged him their Lord.

It was so prophecied of him before, as the visions and dr [...]ames Declared.

Ioseph was a figure of CHRIST.

What thē? So were all the Kings of Iud [...] therfore no Magistrats.

Moses also was a Ciuile Magistr [...]te ouer the Church before the lawe.

He was an extraordinarie Magistrate, he was not chos [...]n by the people.

Whie is euerie Magistrate to be chosen by the people? was not the ordinance of GOD a sufficient calling to the Magistracy▪

MOSES was both called of GOD, and approued his calling vnto & before the people of Isr [...]el.

MOSES was a Prophet: therfor he could be no ordinary Magistrate.

DAVID also & SALOMON were Prophets, yet you will not say that they were not ordinary Magistrates.

Euery Prophet was not a Minister of the tēple in the priests office.

The Prophetts office vvas a ministeriall office.

None but Leuites might b [...] Ministers of the Tabernacle. bu [...] ther were manie Prophetts which were not of the tribe of Leui. But what is this to our purpose? was not MOSES. IOSEPH & theis others ciuile Magistrates? M^r. COOPER will you confesse your error?

They were no ordinarie Magistrates.

Yt is euident they were ciuile Magistrats, & ordinary, & ex­cellent magistrats according to the reuealed will of GOD. But you will y [...]ild vnto no truth, but cauil perue [...]slie against the euident Scriptures.

Amongst mich cōfused speach that passed betwixt M^r. SPERIN & me HENRY BARROVV. after that our conference was broken vp in following his last assertion. That he held not himself a Minister by t [...]e Bishops Ordination vntill he had the [...]pprobation of the people.

He first cōfessed the BB^s. ordinatiō to be a ciuile constitution.1.

Then that the Bishops by the Princes Commandement may2. ordeyne Ministers by their sole authority; Because Timo [...]hi & Ti [...]us did ordenie Elders alone.

When it was alleadged that Timothi & Titus did ordeine them ac­cording3. to the Apostles constitutions and as the Apostles them­selues vsed to do. which alwaies was by the free election of the flocke. 1. Cor. 4. 17. Act. 1 [...]. 23. he said that Timothi & Titus as also the Apostles w [...]re Ministers alone, without the peoples electiō. And that the world [...] ▪ Act. 14. 23. had relation vnto the Apostles, that li [...]ed vp their hands before they laid them on; and not vnto the people, that lifted vp their [...]andes to signifie their approbation in the election.

He said that if [...]o b [...] this Act. 14. were to be vnderstood of the4. peoples election, y [...]t the [...] were no mor [...] places to proue that the [Page 61] [...] ought to chuse their Ministers: Being demaunded what he thought of Acts. 1. & Acts. 6. of 1. Timo [...]. 3. & Titus 1. he said that Acts. 6. was but of Deacons onlie. and as for the other places they pro­ued not that the people might chuse their Elders. Being demaū ­ded who then were to make choise & probation of the Elders, he said that Timothi & Titus in those chapters. Being asked who now was to succeed Timothi & Ti [...]us seing they had lest no heires appa­rāt behind them: he said the BB^s. were to chuse & ordeine them, who now being old and able to take no more paynes, were to go­uerne ouer manie Churches, as they did.

Being asked of 1. Timoth. 3. vers. 10. who was to chuse and make [...]. probatiō there, he confessed that the Church: being asked whe­ther that rule of probation belonged not also, & were spoken of Elders in like maner. he said no. but onlie of Deacons: being as­ked if the wo [...]d hos [...]utos in the 8. verse had not relation vnto the [...]ame chusers and gaue not now rules vnto them concerning Deacons also; And how he could by that chapter make anie distinction, or shew whie the former rules [...]ōcerning the chusing of Elders should not aswell belong vnto the Church, as theis con­cerning Deacons; or whie if the former belonged vnto Timothi, theis also should not belong vnto Timothi [...]; he answeared still that the Church was to chuse Deacons, but not Elders.

In furder discourse of theis rules for the gifts, maners, & rules6. of the conuersatiō & life of theis Elders, which were such as could be knowne vnto, & examined by none, but by the church where they liued, which shewed that theis rules of their Election were giuen [...]nto the Church, wherin Timothie was rather to help & in­struct the Church, then anie way to plucke away the power, au­thoritie, & interest of the church: he answeared that Timothi could onlie best try the gifts & learning of theis Ministers, and therfore the choise & approbation were giuen to him onlie. Being de­m [...]unded whether ther were not manie rules concerning son­drie christian vertues of manners, conuersation towards all men, of the gouerning of themselues, of their wiues, children, families, which belonged & were Common to the teaching and gouerninge Elders, which the Church whe [...] they li [...]ed, could only best iudge: He said that. 1. Timothi. 3. & Titus 1. were onlie wri [...]ten & vnderstood of P [...]stors & Teachers because yt is ther said a B [...]hop must b [...] didacticos which is onlie pe [...]ulier vnto the Pastor & Teacher. Neither would he yeild though yt were shewed him, that the name & care of Elders were common vnto all aswell the gouerning as teaching Elders, that most of the rules accorded vnto them indifferently Acts [...]0. Furder that he could shew no [...]ther rules i [...] the Testament of CHRIST for the election of [Page 62] the gouerning Elders then there.

Wherupon he fell into this grosse opiniō also. That those Elders 7. & De [...]cons were one office. Not vnderstāding Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Phil. 1. 1.

Retorning againe vnto the BB^s. being demaūded by what war­rāt8. they may vsurpe this inordinate power ouer all the churches. In processe of speach he was driuē to acknowledge yt onlie to be by the Princes authoritie, & not by the Testament of CHRIST: & so held them to be meerly ciuile. Being demaunded what thē [...]e thought of their ministerie & Sacramēts which they deliuered; he awhile denying that they medled with the Sacraments or mi­nistrie; in th' end being pressed, because they in all the Parishes of their diocesses did & might at their pleasure preach and deliuer the Sacraments, whether the Church & Parson would or no: yea they will make the Parson follow them with the Cupp & booke. yea the B. will scilence, suspend, or remoue what Minister or Par­son he list. Here M^•. SPERIN said that the Bishop did not, nei­ther should administer anie Sacraments in his P [...]rish.

Thus vvith one breath he affirming and denying, grau [...]ting and retracting, I [...]old him that I vvould not from hencefourth [...] more reason or Conf [...]r vvith him vntill he brought a better Conscience vvith him.

To cōclude, seing he neither vnderstood the Scriptures wherof he so bouldlie affirmed or denied, seing he vnderstood not the verie first Doctrines & beginnings of CHRIST, as the Doctrines of laying on of hands of Election, ordination &c. neither yet knewe so mich as the offices that belonged to the Church of CHRIST, he was altogeather vnworthie & vnfit to be a teacher or exercise anie gouernment in the Church of CHRIST: Saying that God would er long shew who were fitt Ministers to drawe neere vnto him.

He said vnto me that I medled which more then I needed, and that I did but take a wolf by the eares. I said that he abused and vnderstood not that Prouerbe, also that I did not immiscere alienae liti. That yt was a matter of mine owne saluation that I stood for, in refusing all subiection or Cōmunion with ANTICHRIST & his detestable enormities; that euerie true Christian ought to cōtend for the maintenance of the faith that was once giuē vnto the Saints. Re [...]. 14. 9. &c. Iude. [...].

M^r. COOPER to shift off the answeare of our Arguments wher­with he was pressed, whē he perceiued the issue of them, he rose from the table & brake off Conference with vs, pretending hast to be gonne▪ but the dore being lockt, he turned him to two g [...] ­lemen which sate behind as hear [...]rs of our conference, and fell [...] perswading of them whervpon I IOHN GREN▪ left M^r. BAR [...]OVV [Page 63] Mr. SPERIN in conference still, & went to giue eare to Mr. COO­PER, whose deceipt [...] I fownde so pernitions & D [...]ctrines so fowle that I againe replied vpon him, and receiued certaine errors from his mouth, some wherof I shall heare insert with mine answere in breife, not following our vvhole discourse.

A priuate man ought not to make question our doubt of the1. Ministers ou [...]ward calling, but if he find comfort in heart by his Doctrine, he ought to approue of his ministrie, what calling soe­uer he haue.

This is sweete Doctrine that you sowe here; hath not the [...]orde giuen as great Commandement to auoide false Prophetts as to heare & obey the true messengers, and all true messengers ther­vpon approuing their sending to all mens consciens by the eui­de [...]t testimonie of Gods reueyled will, shall not the flocke know their Pastor, yea chuse & call their Pastor?

If one come into a Congregacōn & heare one preach, he ought not to make question of the Ministers calling, or refuse his Doc­trine.

If one come so, & before know that that preacher hath a false outward calling, yea that he hath no office in a true Church but is a false Prophet, he offendeth in hearing of him, especially in a false Church, for ther is no false teacher but teach [...]th some truth &c.

A man may be a true Minister to a people vncalled, & they are2. a true Church or faithfull Congregation potentia though not actu. and he may be an officer or minister vnto them, they b [...]ing a true Church Potentia.

This is such Doctrine as I neuer heard, that a Pastor can be or­deyned & exercise the duties of a Pastor, to a Church that as yet is not. But your Ministers most sacrilegiouslie giue them the Sa­c [...]aments also in this estate.

Though the Minister do deliuer the Sacraments to the open3. knowne vnworthie, and so commit sacriledge, yet maie a priuate man communicate with the Minister, & that partie not be par­taker of their sinne.

If I associat a theife & Communicate in his [...]uill▪ shall I not be guiltie, how mich more if I reproue not this transgressiō against God, & absteine from their fellowship till they repent, or by due [...]rder be censured.

Here M^r. BARTLET a gentleman said yt was not well we had not some more orderlie Conference about theis weightie causes that the truth might appea [...]e.

You see they will not come to ani [...] pointe of Doctrine to con­clude [Page 64] anie thing, we haue long made sute to ha [...]e some free Conference & neuer could obteine anie, but are lockt vp close prisoners.

They denie our Church & ministrie & therfor are not to be disputed with.

Yet their reasons would be seene & cōuinced orderly; if they deserue yt, then to suffer punishment.

We haue often shewed causes whie we hold your Church & ministerie to be false, and not to be ioyned with of anie that wilbe saued: as for example. you haue not a people rightlie ga­thered vnto CHRIST, but stand one with the world, so that your parishes cannot be called [...] a people called fourth 2. you haue set a popish ministerie ouer this whole [...]ande 3. you most sacrilegiously giue the Sacraments in this order to all commers 4. you wor [...]hipp God after mens deuises and not according to CHRISTS Testament. 5. you haue not the power or freedome to redresse sinne by due censure, being all Subiect to theis wic­ked Courts. &c.

Theis thinges would be answeared & conuinced.

We graunt the things they seeke are good, and manie of5. vs haue written and taught fullie the same, but they seeke them not by due order.

This is not true, you are limited what to preach, to con­forme your Doctrines to theis Antichristiā Orders, & still prac­tize cōtrarie i [...] you write or teach anie truth. And as for vs we seeke to do the will of God after the same order that all true Prophets, CHRIST, & his Apostles haue taught & practised for Conscience towards God: to haue no fellowship with that mi­nisterie & Church which reiecteth CHRISTES Testament, and will not be guided by him & his Ordinances.

We professe & teach trulie all the Articles of faith.6.

The Papists teach the same Articles in generall wordes, but nether you nor they, ether teach the particular Doctrines, our practise the same truly. But both you and they denie spea­ciall Doctrines of our Iustification.

What Article of faith do we not truli [...] teach.

You teach that CHRIST descended into hell after his death and buriall.

We hold it not neither teach yt, manie of vs haue taught & written against yt, you therfore do vs wrong to chardge vs with vt.

It is set out with priuiledge as an Article of your faith & receiued and redd in all your Parishes▪

Though the gouernours of our Church sett yt out and we ca [...] not help yt, yet we are not to be chardged with yt.

Besids that you daylie communicate with them that do hold yt (if not reade yt to the people) you haue subscribed to this & all other such errors in your Church of late, as I heare.

Here Mr. COOPER was smitten with mutenes and the gentle­man said, haue you donne so?

He careth not wh [...]t he saith of vs.

Will you denie yt. I will bring witnes to proue yt vnto you be­fore to morrow at 8▪ of the clocke, if you denie yt.

I will not make you acquainted with my priuate actions.

I desire not to knowe your priuate actiōs, but this is a publique matter of your subiection to Antichrist in your whole ministerie against your conscience; but yt seemes your deeds ar euill, and therfore you would hide them, least they should be reproued of the light.

The gentleman said yt was thought we held some error about the lords prayer, as they call yt: whervppon I shewed him ou [...] iudgment in writing, & said that we vvould not continue in anie error to our knowledg. and when he read thatwe said yt could not be called the Lords prayer, because he neuer prayed yt, M^r. COOPER tooke exception thus.

It may be called the Lords prayer in respect he taught yt his Disciples.

This proueth it cannot be called the lords prayer, for Doctrine is one thing, and prayer is an other. Prayer is a powring fourth of our hearts vnto the Lord, according to our present wāts; Doc­trine is an instruction of others; so that yt cannot be called the Lords pray [...]r.

But this troubleth vs that you hold yt not lawfull to say oue [...] those wordes in prayer &c.

You see that we denie no man to vse the verie wordes, all o [...] anie part of them in prayer, by explication, or application, accor­ding to our present occasions, as anie other Scripture.

What is the meaning of that explication or application.

Explication & application is meant thus: as when I desire that the Pope & such Ministers of poperie might be suppressed I say. Do this Lord for th'aduancement of thy kingdome. Let thy Kingdome come &c.

And without this explication or application to say ouer the vvhole vvordes conteyning all things that can be praid, were but abuse of that forme of prayer, seing they that so praye cannot vn­derstand what he (that is the mo [...]th of all) asketh▪ for we cannot [Page 66] pray for all thing at once, but that which is within the com­passe of our faith; otherwise yt is but babling.

For the whole Church yt may be said ouer as a praier.

All praier must be of faith for such things as are within our knowledge, and as we knowe the Church to be in present neede of, and those things to be particularly craued at GODS hand, els we do but babble as the papists do.

I grāt that al our praiers ought to be of faith & expressing our present necessities. Yet ought we euerie day to say ouer the Lords praier for the whole Church.

This is popish Doctrine, & such praier were superstitious babling &c.

THe true planted and rightlie established Church of CHRIST is a companie of Faithfull people: seperated from the vn­beleuers and heathen of the land: gathered in the name of CHRIST, whome they truelie worship, and redily obey as thier only King Priest and Prophet: ioyned together as mem­bers of one bodie: ordered and gouerned by such officers and lawes as CHRIST in his last will and Testament hath therevnto ordeyned: all and each one of them standing in and for thier Christiā libertie to practise whatsoener God hath cōmaunded & reuealed vnto them in his holie word within the limites of their callings, executing the lordes iudgements against all trangressió and disobedience which ariseth among them, and cutting it off accordinglie by the power which thier lord and King CHRIST IESVS hath comitted vnto them.

Now who so shall measure thies parish assemblies as they ge­nerally stand in England, by this rule: shall euidently finde them in euerie point so transgressing and defectiue: as he that hath eyes to see, or but a will to search cannot be deceaued or mistake these parish Churches for the true churches of Christ.

Thies parishes consisting of a company of prophane & igno­rant people: gathered by the sounde of a Bell in the name of Antichrist: worshipping God after a false & Idolatrous maner: denying all obedience vnto CHRIST in his 3. offices as thier only King, Priest, and Prophet. lyuing in disorder among them­selues: standing in confusion being disordered and ouerruled by such lawes & officers as the Pope left and not as CHRIST left, standing in bondage to the Romi [...]h courts & cannons: hauing no power to execute the lordes iudgements or to redresse the least sinne or transgression amongst them-selues: but are driuen to the Comissaries Courts, and so cast out SATAN by the power of SATAN.

1. Thier Churches consiste not of a company of faithfull peo­ple,(1) [...]ere. 31. 34. Act. 10. 43 Act. 15. 9. [...]. Cor. 1. 2. but of a multitude of prophane people: Therefore they are not the true Church.

[Page 68]2. They haue made no seperation from the heathen of the(2) Isay. 65. 11▪ 12. Leu. 20. 24 Iere. 15. 19. Ez [...]k. 16. 25 Eze. 23. 44 I [...]h. 15. 1. 9. 2 Cor. 6. 14 land: but all are receiued & reteyned in the bozome of thier Churches: Therefore: &c.

3. They are not gathered in the name of Christ, but in the name of Antichrist, whom they obey as shall afterward ap­peare. Therefor &c.(3) Isay. 11. 10, 12. Ioh [...]. 12. 32 Mat. 18. 20 1 Pet. 2. 4. 5

4. They worship not God truelie, but after a false and Idola­trous maner, as witnesseth thier popish leiturgie, thier stin­ted booke of [...]hier comon prayer: Therfore &c.(4) Deu [...]. 5. 8. 1 Cor. 10. 28 Reuel. 21. 8

[...] They receiue not, nor obey not Christ as thier King, Priest, & Prophet: Therefore &c.(5) Deut. 18. 15 Isay. 42. 1. Mat. 17. 5. Act. 3. 22. [...]. Io. 4. 3. Mal. 1. 6. Luk. 19. 27 Iohn. 3. 3 Ezek. 16▪ 17. 19. and 44. 7. Lam. 1. 10.

Not as thier King; reiecting his gouernment and receiuing & [...]tanding vuder the Antichrist [...]a yoake of thier popi [...]h gouern­ment.

Not as thier Priest; sacraligiously prophaning his name with [...]hier Idolatrie, prostituting his blood: and making him a priest [...]nd sacrifice to Infidells and the most wicked offenders:

Not as thier Prophet; giuing no obedience to his worde, vsingDe [...]t. 13. 3. Mat: 7. 15▪ and 15. 14. Rom. 16. 17 2. Tim. 3. 5. 2 Iohn. 10. Iere. 23. 29 [...] as a mantill to couer thier sinne, rather then as a rule whereby [...] direct thier liues, not seeking a true ministrie but maintey­ [...]ing a false, of which sorte the wholl ministrie of the land is [...]hich are permitted to teach in thier publike places, to whome [...]ey giue eare.

Thier people are not kint togeather as members each of(6) 1 Cor. 12. 12 1 Pet. 2. 4. 5 Rom. 12. 5 other in one congregation, but both roue and goe, assemble, & departe, at thier pleasure when they will, whether they will, & as they will themselues; As also liue in continuall disorder.

[Page 69]7 Thies parishes are not ordered and gouerned by such offi­cers(7) Rom. 12. 8. Ephes. 4. 11. Psal. 2. 2. 3. L [...]k. 19. 14. as Christ hath appointed to his Church: They haue no true Pastors, Teachers, Elders, Deacons, Releeuers: But insteade of thies they remaine most seruilely s [...]biect to the Antichristian go­uernmēt of thier popish Arch-bishops, Bishops, Chauncellors, Arch­deacons, De [...]nes, Commissaries, Doctors, Proctors, Aduocats, Notaries, Regesters Purseuants Cursetors, Sumners &c. And from the Apostoli [...]all seat of the Bi [...]hops, they receue as Antechristiā & false a ministrie, as thier [...], [...], hirelings, lecturers, mercenarie preachers, &c. which togeither with this people stand bounde and subiect to thies Bishops and thier popish courts, of high commission, of facul­ties, of Arch [...]es, of prerogatiue of delega [...]s, of thier Cōmissaries &c. There­fore, &c.

8 Thi [...]s assemblies are not ruled by th'olde and newe Testa­ment,(8) 1 Tim. 6▪ 13 14. Ephes. 4. 11 12. 1 Cor. 14. 37 Heb. 12. 28. but by the Cannons, Iniunctions, and decrees of thi [...]s Antichristian and popish courts. Therefore &c.

9 Thies people stand not in and for thier Christian lybertie,(9) Io [...]n. 8. 36. Gal. 4. 26 1. Pet. 2. 9. but all of them remaine in bondage to thies Aegyptian and Babi­lonish yoakes, yeilding obedience vnto thies courts and thier Cannons: Ther [...]fore &c.

10 Thies assemblies haue not the power which Christ hath g [...] ­uen10) Psal. 14▪ 9. 9 Isay. 45. 17. Ma [...]. 18. 17. Luk▪ 10. 19 1. Co [...]. 5. 4. 2 Cor. 10. 4 5. 6. vnto his Church vnto the worlds end, and all the powers in earth and hell cannot take from them; viz. to binde & loose and to refo [...]me things that are amisse, but are driuen to the Comissary Courts: Therfore &c.

11 Thies assēblies cast out Satan by the power of Satan, name­ly( [...]) [...]. 12. 25. by thies Impes of Antichrist the Bishops Commissaryes and priests: Therefore they are not, & for all th [...]er reasons seuerall & io [...]ned, cannot be held in anie Christian iudgement, the true Churches of Christ.

Infinite were the reasons which from thies seuerall heades, as likewise from thier particuler transgressions & defaults might be drawne: But the be [...] Argument to confute and cut downe all this trumprie at once, is, according to the commandements of God, to perserue our bodies and soules free from thies ab­hominations▪ by a speedie seperation and withdrawing our [Page 70] selues from amongst them, and to confute their l [...]st and only Argument whereby they vpholde their ruinous kingdome, namely their penall lawe, by Christian patience, and an vpright & godlie life.

THESE Arguments were more then a yeare & an halfe since deliuered to Mr. CARTVVRIGHT M^r. TRAVERS M^r. CHARKE and M^r. FLOYDE which still remaine vpon them vn­answered.