THE SVMME AND SVB­STANCE OF THE CON­ference, which, it pleased his Excellent Maiestie to haue with the Lords, Bishops, and other of his Clergie, (at vvhich the most of the Lordes of the Councell were pre­sent) in his Maiesties Priuy-Chamber, at Hampton Court. Ianuary 14. 1603.

Contracted by VVILLIAM BARLOVV, Doctor of Diuinity, and Deane of Chester.

Whereunto are added, some Copies, (scattered abroad,) vnsauory, and vntrue.



Printed by Iohn Windet, for Mathew Law, and are to be sold at his shop in Paules Churchyeard, neare S. Austens Gate. 1604

To the Reader.

THis Copy of the Conferēce in Ianuary last, hath beene long expected; and long since it was finished; impeach­ments, of the diuulging, were many; too, main, aboueArchiep. Can tuar. the rest: one, his vntimely death, who first imposed it vpon me; with whome is buri­ed the famousest glory of our English Church, and the most kind incouragement to paines and study: A man happie in his life & death; loued of the best, while he liued; & hearde of God for his decease; most earnestly de­siring, not many dayes before hee was stroken, that he might not, yet, liue to see this Parliament, as neare as it vvas.

The other, an expectation of this late Comi­tiall 2 Conference, much threatned before, and [Page] triumphed in by many; as if that Regall and most honourable preceding, shoulde thereby haue receiued his Counter-blast, for being too forward: But his Maiesties Constancy ha­uing, by the last, added comfort and strength to this former, which now, at length, comes a­broad; therein, good Reader, thou mayest both see those huge pretended Scandales (for which our flourishing Church hath, beene so long disturbed) obiected and remoued; & with­all, behold the expresse and viue image of a most learned and iudicious King: whose manifolde giftes of Grace and Nature, my skant measure of gift is not able to delineate, nor am I willing to enumerate, because, I haue euer accounted the personall commendations of Liuing Princes. in men of our sort, a Verball Symony, Such Flies there are too many, which puffe the skinne, but taint the flesh. His Maiesties hum­ble deportment in those sublimities, will be the eternizing of his memory: the rather, because, [...], to digest so great Felicity, without surfet of surquedry is a vertue rare in great personages, & that, which the K. of Hea­uē [Page] feared, euen the King of his own choice would want. The more eminent he is, in all princely qualities, the happier shall we be: our duty, as we are Christians, is Prayer for him; as wee are Subiectes, Obedience to him; as we are men, acknowledgement of our setled state in him. Our vnthankfulnes may remoue him as it did, the mirrour of Princes, our late famous E­lizabeth. Shee rests with God, the Phaenix of her ashes raignes ouer vs; and long may he so doe to Gods glory, and the Churches good, which his excellent knowledge be wtifieth, and good go­uernement adioyned will beatifie it. An hope of this last, we conceiue by his written [...]: a Specimen of the other, in this Interlocutory Conference: whereof take this, which is prin­ted, but as an Extract, wherein is the Sub­stance of the whole; intercourse of speeches, there occasioned, would cause prolixity without profit: what euery man said, point deuise, I neither could, nor cared to obserue; the vigour of euery obiection, with the summe of each answer, I gesse, I misse not: For the first day, I had no helpe, beyond mine owne; yet some of good place [Page] and vnderstanding, haue seene it, and not con­troled it, except for the breuity: for the two last, out of diuersDeanes of Ep. Londl. Christchur. VVinchest. VVindsor. Archdeac. Nottinghā. and mine owne. copies, I haue selected and ordered what you here see: in them all, next vnto God, the Kinges Maiestie alone, must haue the glory: Yet, to say, that the present state of our Church, is very much obliged to the Reuerend Fathers, my Lordes of London and Winton, their paines & dexterity in this busines, were neither detraction from other, nor flattery of them. His Highnes purposed to compose all quarrels of this kind, hereby, and supposing he had setled all matters of the Church, it pleased him so to sig­nifie by Proclamation after it was done: but there is a triple generation in the worlde, ofProu. 30, 1 [...]. 13. 14 whome the wiseman speaketh, marry, I say nothing, (for, euen, priuate speeches cannot, now passe without the smeare of a Blacke Cole. In one ranke whereof, you may place our Hercules Limbo▪ mastix, whome it might haue pleased, without his Gnathonical appeale, to haue rested his Maiesties determinatiō; & being a Synopti­call Theolog [...]; and angry, that he was not, so, [...], haue learned, the difference [Page] Diuinitie, betweene Viam Regis, & viam gregis.

Many copies, of diuerse sorts haue been scat­tered, and sent abroad, some partiall, some vn­true, some slanderous; what is here set downe, for the truth thereof, shall be iustified: the onelie wrong, therein, is to his excellent Maiestie, a syllable of whose admirable speeches, it was pitty to loose, his wordes as they were vttered by him, being as Salomon speaketh, Like Apples of Pro. 25. 11 gold, vvith pictures of siluer; and therefore, I request thee good Reader, when thou commest to any of his Highnes speeches, to turne Martial his Apostrophe vpon me;

Tu malé iam recitas, incipit esse tuus, and I will take it kindly. If thou bee honest and courteous, thou wilt rest satisfied, and that is my content: to lay a pillow for a dog, sortes neither with my leysure, nor purpose. Farevvell.

Thine in Christ Iesu, W. Barlow.


THe day appointed was, as by his Maiesties Pro­clamation we all know, Thursday the 12. of Ia­nuary, on which there met at Hampton Court, by 9. of the Clocke, all the Bishops and Deanes, summoned by letters, namely, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bi­shops of London, Durham, Winchester, Wor­cester, S. Dauids, Chichester, Carlell and Peterborow: the Deanes of the Chappell, Christ-Church, Worcester, Westminster, Paules, Chester, Windsor; with Doctor, [Page 2] Field, and Doctor King, Archdeacon of Nottingham: who, though the night before, they heard a rumor that it was de­ferred till the 14. day, yet according to the first summons, thought it their dutie to offer themselues to the Kinges presence, which they did: at which time it pleased his Highnes to signifie vnto the Bishops, that the day hauing preuented, or decei­ued him, he would haue them returne on Saturday next following: On vvhich day, all the Deanes and Doctors, atten­ding my Lordes the Bishops into the Pre­sence-Chamber, there wee found fitting vpon a forme, D. Reynoldes, D. Sparkes; M. Knewstubs, and M. Chaderton, Agentes for the Millene Plaintiffes. The Bishoppes entring the Priuy-Chamber, stayed there, till commaundement came from his Ma­iestie that none of any sort should bee pre­sent, but onely the Lordes of the Priuie­Councell, and the Bishoppes vvith fiue Deanes, viz. of the Chappell, Westminster, [Page 3] Powles, Westchester, Salisburie, who beeing called in, the doore was close shut by my Lord Chamberlaine.

After a while, his excellent Maiestie came in, and hauing passed a fewe plea­sant gratulatiōs with some of the Lords, he sate downe in his chaire, remoued for­ward from the cloth of State a prettie di­stance; where, beginning with a most graue and princely declaration of his ge­nerall drift in calling this assembly, no nouell deuise, but according to the exam­ple of all Christian Princes, who, in the commencement of their raigne, vsually take the first course for the establishing of the Church, both for doctrine and policie, to which the verie Heathens themselues had relation in their prouerbe, A Ioue Principium, and particularly, in this land King Henry the eight, toward the ende of his raigne; after him King Edward the 6 who altered more, after him Queene Ma­rie, who reuersed all; and the last Queene [Page 4] of famous memory, so his highnesse ad­ded (for it is worth the noting, that his Maiestie neuer remembreth her, but with some honourable addition) who setled it as now it standeth: wherein, hee sayd, that he vvas happier then they, in this, be­cause they were faine to alter all thinges they found established, but he saw yet, no cause so much to alter, and chaunge any thing, as to confirme that which he found well setled already: which state, as it see­med, so affected his royal hart, that it plea­sed him both to enter into a gratulation to almightie God, (at which wordes hee put off his hat) for bringing him into the promised land, where Religion was pure­ly professed; where he sate among graue, learned and reuerend men; not, as before, else where, a King without state, without honor, without order; where beardlesse boyes would braue him to his face: and to assure vs, that he called not this assem­bly for any Innouation, acknowledging [Page 5] the gouernement Ecclesiasticall, as now it is, to haue beene approued by manifold blessings from God himselfe, both for the encrease of the Gospell, and vvith a most happie and glorious peace. Yet, be­cause nothing could be so absolutely or­dered, but something might bee added afterward thereunto, and in any state, as in the body of man, corruptions might in­sensibly grow, either through time or persons; and, in that hee had receiued many complaintes since his first entrance into the kingdome, especially, through the dissentions in the Church, of many disorders, as he heard, and much disobe­dience to the lawes, with a great falling away to Popery: his purpose therefore was, like a good Physition, to examine & trie the complaintes, and fully to remoue the occasions thereof, if they proue scan­dalous, or to cure them, if they were daun­gerous, or, if but friuolous, yet to take knowledge of them, thereby to cast a sop [Page 6] into Cerberus his mouth, that hee may ne­uer barke againe: his meaning beeing, as hee pleased to professe, to giue factious spi­rites, no occasion, hereby, of boasting or glory; for, which cause hee had called the Bishops in, seuerally by themselues, not to be confronted by the contrary opponents, that if any thing should be found meete to be redressed, it might be done (which his Maiestie twise or thrise, as occasion ser­ued, reiterated) without any visible alte­ration.

And this was the summe, so farre as my dull head could conceiue, and carry it, of his Maiesties generall speech. In par­ticular, he signified vnto them the princi­pall matters why hee called them alone, with vvhome hee vvould consult about some speciall pointes, wherein himselfe desired to bee satisfied; these hee reduced to three heades: First, concerning the Booke of Common Prayer, and Diuine Ser­uice vsed in this Church. Second, Excom­munication [Page 7] in the Ecclesiasticall Courtes▪ Third, the Prouiding of fit and able Ministers for Ireland.

In the booke he required satisfaction a­bout three thinges. First, about Confirma­tion; first, for the name, if arguing a confir­ming of Baptisme, as if this Sacrament without it, were of no validity, then were it blasphemous: Secondly, for the vse, first brought vpon this occasion; Infants being baptized, and aunswering by their Patrini, it was necessarie they should bee examined, when they came to yeares of discretion, and after their profession made by themselues, to be confirmed with a blessing or prayer of the Bishop, laying his handes vpon their heades, abhorring the a­buse in Popery, where it was made a sacra­ment and a corroboration to Baptisme.

The second was for Absolution, vvhich how we vsed it in our Church hee knewe not, hee had heard it likened to the Popes pardons, but his Maiesties opinion was, [Page 8] that, there being onely two kindes there­of from God, the one generall, the other particular: for the first, all prayers and preaching do import an Absolution: for the second, it is to bee applied to speciall parties, who hauing committed a scan­dall, and repenting, are absolued: other­wise, where there precedes not either ex­communication or pennance, there needs no absolution.

The third was Priuate Baptisme: if pri­uate for place, his Maiestie thought it a­greed with the vse of the primitiue church: if for persons, that any but a Lawfull Mi­nister might baptize any where, he vtterly disliked: and in this point his Highnesse grew somewhat earnest against the bap­tizing by women and Laikes.

The second head was Excommunication, wherein hee offered two thinges to bee considered of, first, the matter, second the person. In the matter, first, whether it were executed, (as it is complained) in [Page 9] light causes; second, whether it were not vsed too often. In the Persons, first, why Lay men, as Chancelors & Commissaries should do it? second, why the Bishops themselues, for the more dignitie to so high and waightie a censure, should not take vpon them, for their assistantes, the Deane and Chapter, or other ministers and Chaplaines of grauitie and account: and so likewise, in other Censures, and giuing of orders, &c.

The last, for Ireland, his Maiestie refer­red, as you shall in the last daies conference heare, to a consulation. His Highnesse, (to whome I offer great wrong, in bee­ing, as Phocion to Demosthenes, [...] the hatchet to cut short so admirable a speech) hauing ended, the Lord Arch­bishop, after that, on his knee, he had sig­nified hovve much this Whole land was bound to God for setting ouer vs a King so wise, learned and iudicious, addressed himselfe to enforme his Maiestie of all [Page 10] these pointes in their seuerall order.

And first, as touching Confirmation, hee shewed at large, the antiquitie of it, as be­ing vsed in the Catholike Church euer since the Apostles time, till that, of late some particular Churches had vnaduised­ly reiected it. Then hee declared the law­full vse of it, agreeable to his Maiesties former speech, affirming it to bee a meere calumniation, and a very vntrue suggesti­on, if any had informed his Highnesse, that the Church of England did holde or teach, that, without Confirmation, Bap­tisme was vnperfect, or that it did adde any thing to the vertue and strength there­of. And this hee made manifest by the Rubrikes in the Communion booke set before Confirmation, which were there read.

My Lord of London succeeded, saying that the authoritie of Confirmation, did not depend, onely, vpon the Antiqui­tie and practise of the Primitiue Church, [Page 11] which out of Cyprian Ep. 73. and Hierom. aduersus Luciferian: hee shewed, but that it was an Institution Apostolicall, and one of the particular pointes of the Apostles Catechisme, set downe and named in ex­presse wordes, Hebr. 6. 2. and so did M. Caluin expound that very place, who wished earnestly the restitution thereof in those reformed Churches, where it had beene abolished. Vpon which place the Bishop of Carlell also insisted, and vrged it both grauely and learnedly. His Maie­stie called for the Bible, read the place of the Hebrewes, and approued the exposi­tion.

Something also the Bishop of Durham noted, out of the Gospell of S. Mathew, for the imposition of handes vppon chil­dren. The conclusion was, for the ful­ler explanation, (that wee make it not a Sacrament or a corroboration to a for­mer Sacrament,) that it should bee consi­dered of by their Lordshippes, whether it [Page 12] might not, without alteration, whereof his Maiestie was still very wary) bee in­tituled an Examination with a Confirma­tion.

Next in order, was the point of Abso­lution, which the Lord Archbishop clea­red from all abuse, or superstition, as it is vsed in our Church of England: reading vnto his Maiestie, both the Confession in the beginning of the Communion book, and the Absolution following it, where­in, (saith he) the Minister doth nothing else but pronounce an Absolution in ge­nerall. His Highnesse perused them both in the booke it selfe, liking and approuing them, finding it to be very true which my Lord Archbishop said: but the Bishop of London, stepping forward, added; it becō ­meth vs to deale plainely with your Ma­iestie: there is also, in the Communion booke, another more particular and per­sonall forme of Absolution, prescribed to be vsed in the order for the Visitation of [Page 13] the sicke: this the King required to see, and whilest Maister Deane of the Chap­pell was turning to it, the sayd Bishop a­ledged, that not onely the confessions of Augustia, Boheme, Saxon, which he there cited, doe retaine and allow it, but that Maister Caluin did also approue such a ge­nerall kinde of Confession, and Absolu­tion, as the Church of England vseth; and withall did very well like of those which are priuate, for so hee termes them: The sayd particular Absolution in the Common prayer booke beeing read, his Maiestie exceedingly well approued it, adding, that it was Apostolicall, and a very godly ordinance, in that it was gi­uen, in the name of Christ, to one that de­sired it, and vpon the clearing of his con­science.

The conclusion was, that it should be consulted of by the Bishops, whether vn­to the Rubrike of the generall Absolution, these wordes, Remission of sinnes, might [Page 14] not be added for explanation sake.

In the third place, the Lord Archbi­shop proceeded to speake of Priuate Bap­tisme, shewing his Maiestie, that the ad­ministration of Baptisme, by women, and Lay-persons, was not allowed in the prac­tise of the Church, but enquired of, by Bishoppes, in their Visitations, and cen­sured; neither doe the wordes in the booke inferre any such meaning: whereunto the King excepted, vrging and pressing the wordes of the Booke, that they could not but intend a permission, and suffering of women, and priuate persons to bap­tize. Here the Bishoppe of Worcester said, that, indeed, the wordes were doubtfull, and might bee pressed to that meaning, but yet it seemed by the contrarie practise of our Church, (censuring women in this case) that the compilers of the Booke, did not so intend them, and yet propounded them ambiguously, because otherwise, perhaps, the Booke would [Page 15] not haue then passed in the Parliament, (and for this coniecture, as I remember, he cited the testimony of my Lord Archbi­shoppe of Yorke:) whereunto the Bishop of London replyed, that those learned and reuerend men, who framed the Booke of Common Prayer, entended not by am­biguous termes to deceiue any, but did, in­deede, by those wordes entend a permis­sion of priuate persons, to baptize in case of necessitie, whereof their letters were witnesses, some partes whereof hee then read, and withall declared that the same was agreeable to the practise of the aun­cient Church; vrging to that purpose, both Actes 2. where 3000. were baptized in one day, which for the Apostles alone to doe, was impossible, at least impro­bable; and, besides the Apostles, there were then no Bishoppes or Priestes: And also thee authoritie of Tertullian, and Saint Ambrose in the fourth to the Ephesi­ans, plaine in that point; laying also [Page 16] open the absurdities, and impieties of their opinion, who thinke there is no neces­sitie of Baptisme; which word, Necessitie, he, so, pressed not, as if God, without Bap­tisme could not saue the child; but the case put, that the state of the Infant, dying vnbaptized, being vncertaine, and to God only known; but if it dye baptized, there is an euident assurance, that it is saued; who is hee, that hauing any Religion in him, would not speedily, by any meanes, procure his Child to be baptized, and ra­ther ground his action vpon Christs pro­mise, then his omission thereof vppon Gods secret iudgement?

His Maiestie replied; first to that place of the Actes, that it was an Acte extraor­dinary; neither is it sound reasoning from thinges done before a Church bee setled and grounded, vnto those which are to be performed in a Church stablished and flourishing: That hee also maintained the necessitie of Baptisme, and alwayes [Page 17] thought that the place of Saint Iohn, NisiIohn. 1. 5.quis renatus fuerit ex aqua &c. was ment of the Sacrament of Baptisme; and that hee had so defenced it against some Mini­sters in Scotland; and it may seeme strange to you, my Lords, saith his Maiestie, that I, who now think you in England giue too much to Baptism, did 14. moneths ago in Scotland, argue with my Diuines there, for ascribing too litle to that holy Sacrament. In somuch that a pert Minister asked me, if I thought Baptism so necessary, that if it were omitted, the child should be dam­ned? I answered him no: but if you, be­ing called to baptize the child, though pri­uately, should refuse to come, I think you shall be damned.

But this necessitie of Baptisme his Ma­iestie so expounded, that it was necessarie to be had where it might be lawfully had: id est, ministred by lawfull Ministers, by whom alone, & by no priuate person, hee thought it might not, in any case be [Page 18] administred: and yet vtterly disliked all rebaptization, although either women or Laikes had baptized.

Heere the Bishop of VVinchester spake, very learnedly and earnestly, in that point, affirming that the denying of priuate per­sons in cases of necessitie, to baptize, were to crosse all antiquitie, seeing that it had bene the ancient and common practize of the Church, When Ministers at such times could not be got: and that it was also a rule agreed vpon among Diuines, that the Minister is not of the Essence of the Sacra­ment. His Maiestie answered, though hee be not of the Essence of the Sacrament, yet is he of the Essence of the right and lawfull ministrie of the Sacrament; taking for his ground the commission of Christ to his Disciples, Mat. 28. 20. Go preach and baptize.

The issue was a consultation whether into the Rubrike of Priuate Baptisme, which leaues it indifferently to all, Laikes, or Clergie, the wordes, Curate or lawfull Mi­nister, [Page 19] might not bee inserted? which was not so much stuck at by the Bishops. And so his Maiestie proceeded to the next point, about Excommunication, in causes of lesser moment: first, Whether the name might not be altered, and yet the same censure be retained or secōdly, whether in place of it, another Coercion equiualent thereunto, might not bee inuented and thought of. A thing very easily yeelded vnto of all sides, because it hath beene long and often desired, but could not be obtained from her Maiestie, who resol­ued to be still, Semper eadem, and to alter nothing which she had once setled.

And thus the VVednesday succeeding, beeing appointed for the exhibiting of their determinations in these points: and the Munday next immediately following this present day, for the Opponents to bring in their Complaintes, wee were dismissed after three houres and more spent: which were soone gone, so ad­mirably, [Page 20] both for vnderstanding, speech, and iudgment, did his Maiestie handle all those points, sending vs away not with cōtentment only, but astonishment; and, which is pittifull, you will say, with shame to vs all, that a King brought vp among Puritans, not the learnedst men in the world, and schooled by them: sway­ing a kingdome full of busines, and trou­bles, naturally giuen to much exercise and repast, should, in points of Diuinity shew himselfe as expedite and perfect as the greatest Schollers, and most industrious Students, there present, might not out­strip him. But this one thing I may not omit, that his Maiestie should professe, howsoeuer he liued among Puritans, and was kept, for the most part, as a Ward vnder them, yet, since hee was of the age of his Sonne, 10. years old, he euer disliked their opinions; as the Sauiour of the world said, Though he liued among them, he was not of them.

Finis Primae diei.


ON Munday, Ianuary, 16. betweene 11. and 12. of the Clocke, were the foure Plaintiffes called into the Priuie Chamber, (the two Bishoppes, of London, and VVinchester being there before) and after them, all the Deanes & Doctors present, which had bin summoned: Patr. Galloway, somtimes Minister of Perth in Scotland, ad­mitted also to be there: The Kings maie­stie [Page 22] entering the Chamber presētly tooke his Chaire, placed as the day before, (the noble young Prince, sitting by vppon a stoole,) where making a short, but a pitthy and sweet speech, to the same pur­pose which the first day hee made, vz. of the end of the Conference, mee [...]e to bee had, he said, by euerie King, at his first entrance to the Crowne; not to innouate the gouernment presently established, which by long experience hee had found accompanied with so singular blessinges of God, 45: yeares, as that no Church vpon the face of the earth more florished, then this of England. But first to settle an v­niform1order through the whole church. Secondly, to plant vnity for the suppres­sing2of Papistes and enemies to Religion. Thirdly, to amend abuse, as naturall to3bodies Politike, and to corrupt man as the shadow to the bodie: which once be­ing entred, hold on as a wheele, his motiō once set going. And because many grie­uous [Page 23] complaints had bene made to him, since his first entrance into the land, hee thought it best to send for some, whom his Maiestie vnderstoode to be the most graue, learned, and modest of the aggree­ued sort, whome being there present, he was now readie to heare, at large, what they could obiect or say; & so willed them to beginne: whereupon, they 4. kneeling downe, D. Reynalds the Foreman, after a short Preamble gratulatorie, and signify­ing his Maiesties Summons, by vertue whereof, they then and there appeared, reduced all matters disliked, or questio­ned, to these 4. heades.

  • 1. That the Doctrine of the Church might be preserued in puritie, according to Gods word.
  • 2. That good Pastors might be planted in all Churches, to preach the same.
  • 3. That the Church gouernment, might be sin­cerely ministred according to Gods word.
  • 4. That the Booke of Common Prayer, might be fitted to more increase of pietie.

[Page 24]For the first, he moued his Maiestie,1 that the Booke of Articles of Religion, concluded, 1562. might bee explaned in places obscure; and enlarged where some thinges were defectiue. For example, whereas Art. 16. the wordes are these: After we haue receiued the holy Ghost, we may depart from Grace: Notwithstanding, the meaning be sound, yet he desired that, be­cause they may seeme to be cōtrary to the doctrine of Gods Predestination & electi­on in the 17. Article, both those wordes might be explaned with this, or the like addition, yet neither totally, nor finally; and also that the nine assertions Orthodoxall, as he termed them, concluded vpon at Lam­beth, might be inserted into that Booke of Articles.

Secondly, where it is said in the 23.2 Article, that it is not lawfull, for any man to take vpon him the office of Preaching or administring the Sacraments in the con­gregation, before hee bee lawfully called, [Page 25] D. Rey. tooke exception to these wordes, In the Congregation, as implying a lawful­nes for any man whosoeuer, out of the Con­gregation, to preach and administer the Sa­craments, though he had no lawfull cal­ling thereunto.

Thirdly, in the 25. Article, these words3 touching Confirmation, growne partly of the corrupt following the Apostles, beeing oppo­site to those in the Collect of Confirmation in the Communion Booke, vpon whome after the exāple of the Apostles, argue, saith he, a contrarietie each to other; the first, con­fessing Confirmation, to be a depraued imi­tation of the Apostles, the second, groun­ding it vpon their example, Act. 8. & 19. as if the Bishop in Confirming of Children, did, by imposing his handes, as the Apo­stles in those places, giue the visible graces of the holy ghost; & therfore he desired that both the contradiction might be conside­red, and this ground of Confirmation exami­ned.

Thus farre Doctor Reyn. went on, [Page 26] without any interruption: but, here, as hee was proceeding, the Bishoppe of London, much moued to heare these men, who, some of them the Euening before, and the same morning, had made semblance, of ioyning with the Bishops, and that they sought for nothing but vnitie, now strike to ouerthrowe, (if they could) all at once▪ cut him off, and kneeling downe▪ most humbly desired his Maiestie first, That the aunciēt Canon might be remēbred, which saith that, Schismatici contra Episcopos, non sunt audiendi. Secondly, that if any of these par­ties were in the number of the 1000. Ministers, who had once subscribed to the Communion Booke, and yet had lately exhibited a Petition to his Maiestie, against it, they might be remoued and not heard, according to the Decree of a verie auncient Councell, prouiding, that no man should be admitted to speake against that, whereunto he bad formerly subscribed▪ Thirdly, he put D. Reynoldes and his Associates in minde, how much they were bound to [Page 27] his Maiesties▪exceeding great clemencie, in that they were permitted contrary to the Statute, I. Elizab. to speake so freely against the Leiturgie & Discipline established. Last­ly, forasmuch as that hee perceiued they tooke a course tending to the vtter ouer­throwe of the orders of the Church, thus long continued, hee desired to knowe the ende which they aimed at, alledging a place out of M. Cartwright, affirming, that we ought rather to conforme our selues in orders and Ceremonies to the fashion of the Turkes, then to the Papists, which Position hee doubted they approued, because, contrary to the or­ders of the Vniuersities, they appeared be­fore his Maiestie, in Turky gownes, not in their Scholasticall habites, sorting to their degrees▪

His Maiestie, obseruing my Lord of Lon­don, to speake in some passion, saide, that there was in it, something▪ which hee might excuse, something that hee did mis­like: excuse his passion hee might, thin­king he had iust cause to bee so moued, [Page 28] both in respect that they did thus traduce the present well setled Church gouerne­ment; and also, did proceede in so indi­rect a course contrary to their owne pre­tence, and the intent of that meeting also▪ yet hee misliked his sudden interruption of D. Reyn. whome he should haue suffe­red to haue taken his course and libertie, concluding that there is no order, nor can be any effectuall issue of disputation, if each partie might not bee suffered, with­out chopping, to speake at large what hee would: And therefore willed that either the Doctors should proceed, or that the Bishoppe would frame his aunswere to these motions alreadie made; although, saith his Maiestie, some of them are verie needlesse. It was thought fitter to aun­swere, least the number of obiections en­creasing, the aunsweres would proue con­fused.

Vpon the first motion, Concerning falling from Grace: The Bishop of London tooke occasion to signifie to his Maiestie, [Page 29] how very many in these dayes, neglecting holinesse of life, presumed too much of persisting in Grace, laying all their Reli­gion vpon Predestination, If I shall bee saued, I shall be saued, which hee termed a des­perate doctrine, shewing it to bee contra­rie to good Diuinitie, and the true doctrine of Predestination, whereein we should rea­son rather ascendendo, then descendendo, thus; I liue in obedience to God, in loue with my neigh­bour; I follow my vocation, &c therefore I trust that God hath elected me, & predestinated mee to Saluation; not thus, which is the vsuall course of argument. God hath Predestina­ted and chosen mee to life, therefore, though I sin, neuer so grieuously, yet I shall not be damned, for whome he once loueth, he loueth to the ende. VVhereupon hee shewed his Maiestie out of the next article, what was the doctrine of the Church of England touching Pre­destination, in the verie last Paragraph, scilicet: We must receiue Gods promises in such wise as they be generally set forth to vs in holy scripture; and in our doings, that will of God is [Page 30] to be followed, which wee haue expressely decla­red vnto vs in the word of God: which parte of the said Article, his Maiestie verie well approued, and after hee had, after his ma­ner, very singularly discoursed vpon that place of Paul, worke out your saluation with feare and trembling; he left it to bee conside­red, whether any thing were meete to bee added, for the clearing of the Doctor his doubt, by putting in the worde often, or the like, as thus; We may often depart from Grace, but, in the meane time, wished that the doctrine of Predestination might bee verie tenderly handled, and with great discreti­on, least on the one side, Gods omnipoten­cy might be called in question, by impea­ching the doctrine of his eternall predesti­nation; or on the other, a desperate pre­sumption might be arreared, by inferring the necessary certaintie of standing and per­sisting in grace.

To the second, it was aunswered, that it was a vaine obiection, because, by the doctrine and practise of the Church of [Page 31] England, none, but a licensed minister, might preach, nor either publikely or pri­uately administer the Eucharist, or the Lords Supper. And as for priuate Baptisme,his Maiestie answered, that hee had taken order, for that, with the Bishops already.

In the third point) which was about Confirmation) was obserued either a curiosity or malice, because the Article which was there presently read in those wordes: These fiue commonly called Sacraments, that is to say; Confirmation, Pennance, Orders, &c. are not to be accounted for Sacraments of the Gospell, being such as haue growne partly of the corrupt follow­ing the Apostles, &c. insinuateth, that the making of Confirmation, to be a Sacrament, is a corrupt imitation; but the Communion Booke, aiming at the right vse, and pro­per sourse thereof, makes it to bee according to the Apostles example: which his Maiestie obseruing, and reading both the places, concluded the obiection to be a meere Cauil. And this was for the pretended contradic­tion.

[Page 32]Now for the ground thereof; the Bi­shoppe of London added, that it was not so much founded vpon the places in the Acts of the Apostles, which some of the Fathers had often shewed; but vpon Heb 6. 2. where it is made, as the first day hee had saide, a parte of the Apostles Catechisme; which was the opinion, besides the iudgement of the holy Fathers, of M. Cal­uin and D. Fulke, the one vpon Heb. 6. 2. as vpon Saturday he had declared; the o­ther vpon Act. 8. verse 27. where with saint Augustine, he saith, that we do not, in any wise, mislike that auncient Ceremonie (of imposition of hands, for strengthening and con­firming such as had beene baptized) but vse it our selues, beeing nothing else but, as S. Austen affirmeth, Prayer ouer a man to bee strengthened and confirmed by the holy Ghost: or to receiue increase of the giftes of the holy Ghost, as S. Ambrose saith; and a little after alludeth vnto Heb. 6. 2. &c. Neither neede there any great proofe of this (saith my Lord.) For Confirmation to be [Page 33] vnlawfull, it was not their opinion, vvho obiected this, as hee supposed; this was it that vexed them, that they had not the vse thereof in their owne handes, euery Pastor in his Parish to confirme, for then it would bee accounted an Apostolicall institution; and willed D. Reyn. to speake, herein, what he thought: who seemed to yeeld thereunto replying that some Dio­cesse of a Bishoppe, hauing therein 600. parish Churches, (which number caused the Bishop of London to thinke himselfe personally touched, because in his Dio­cesse there are 609. or thereabouts) it was a thing verie inconuenient to commit Confirmation vnto the Bishop alone, sup­posing it impossible that he could take due examination of them all, which came to be confirmed. To the fact, my Lord of London aunswered, for his Maiesties in­formation, that the Bishops in their Vi­sitations, giue out notice to them, who are desirous either to be themselues, or to haue their children, confirmed, of the place [Page 34] where they will bee; and appoint either their Chapleines, or some other Mini­sters to examine them which are to bee cō ­firmed, and lightly confirme none but ei­ther by the testimonie, or report of the Parsons or Curates where the children are bred, and brought vp. To the opinion he replied that none of all the Fathers euer ad­mitted any to cōfirme but Bishops alone; yea euen Saint Ierome himselfe though o­therwise no friend to Bishops, by reason of a quarrell betweene the Bishoppe of Ie­rusalem and him, yet confesseth that the execution thereof vvas restrained to Bi­shops onely, ad honorem potius saaerdotii, quâm ad legis necessitatem. VVhereof, name­ly of this prerogatiue of Bishoppes, he gi­ueth this reason, Ecclesiae salus in summi sa­cerdotis dignitate pendet; cui si non exors quae­dam, & ab omnibus eminens detur potestas, tot in Ecclesiis efficerentur schismata, quot sacerdo­tes. My Lord Bishop of Winchester chal­lenged Doctor Reynolds, willing him, of his learning, to shewe where euer hee had [Page 35] read that confirmation was, at all, vsed in ancient times by any other but Bishoppes; and added with all, that it was vsed part­ly to examine children, and after exami­nation, by imposition of handes (which was a ceremonie of blessing among the Iewes) to blesse them & pray ouer them: and partly to try whether they had beene baptized in the right forme or no. For in former ages Baptisme was administred in diuerse sortes: some gaue it, in nomine pa­tris & filii, &c. others in nomine patris ma­ioris, et filii minoris as the Arrians did; some in nomine patris per filium, in spiritu sancto; others, not in the name of the Trinitie, but in the death of Christ, &c. VVhereuppon Catholike Bishoppes were constrained to examine them who were baptized in remo­tis, farre from them, hovve they were taught to beleeue concerning baptisme? if it were right to confirme them; if amisse to instruct them.

His Maiestie concluded this pointe, first, by taxing Saint Ierome for his assertion [Page 36] that a Bishop was not diuinae ordinationis, (the Bishop of London thereupon, inser­ting that vnlesse hee could proue his ordi­nation lawfull out of the Scriptures hee would not be a Bishop 4. houres) which opinion his Maiestie much distasted, ap­prouing their calling & vse in the Church, and closed it vppe with this short Apho­tisme, No Bishop, no King. Secondly, for Confirmation his Highnesse thought, that it sorted neither with the authoritie nor decencie of the same, that euerie ordi­narie Pastor should doe it: and therefore sayd, that for his part, hee meant not to take that from the Bishops, which they had so long retained and enioyed▪ seeing, as it pleased him to adde, as great reason, that none should confirme without the Bishops licēce, as none shold preach with out his licence: and so referring, as the day before, the word Examination, to be added to the Rubrike in the title of Confirma­tion in the Communion Booke, if it were thought good so to doe; hee willed [Page 37] D. Reyn. to proceed.

VVho, after that he had deprecated the4 imputation of Schisme, with a protesta­tion, that he meant not to gall anie man; goeth on to the 37. Article, wherein, hee sayd, these wordes, The Bishop of Rome hath no authoritie in this land, not to be suffi­cient, vnlesse it were added, nor ought to haue: whereat his Maiestie heartily laugh­ed, and so did the Lordes: the King ad­ding an aunswere, which the Rhetorici­ons call, [...], what speake you of the Popes authoritie here? habemus iure, quod habemus, and therefore, in as much as it is sayd, he hath not, it is plaine inough, that he ought not to haue.

This, and some other motions seeming both to the King, and Lords very idle and friuolous, occasion was taken, in some by talke, to remember a certaine descrip­tion, which M. Butler of Cambridge made of a Puritane, viz. A Puritane is a Protestant frayed out of his wits. But my Lord of London, there, seriously put his Maiestie in [Page 38] minde of the speeches, which the French Embossador Mosr Rogne gaue out concer­ning our Church of Englād, both at Canter­bury after his arriuall; & after, at the Court, vpon the view of our solemne seruice and ceremonies, namely, that if the reformed Churches in Fraunce had kept the same orders a­mong them which we haue, hee was assured that there would haue bene many thousands of Prote­stants more there, then now there are: and yet our men stumble and straine at these petty quillets, thereby to disturbe and disgrace the whole Church.

After this, the D. moued, that this pro­position,5 the intention of the Minister is not of the essence of the Sacrament, might bee added vnto the booke of Articles, the rather, be­cause that some in England had preached it to be essentiall. And here againe hee re­membred the 9. Orthodoxall assertions con­cluded at Lambeth. His Maiestie vtterly disliked that first part of the motion, for two reasons: First, thinking it vnfit to thrust into the booke euerie position ne­gatiue, [Page 39] which would bothe make the booke swell into a volume as bigge as the Bible, and also confound the Reader; bringing for example the course of one M. Craig, in the like case, in Scotland, who with his Irenounce and abhorre, his detesta­tions and abrenunciatiōs he did so amase the simple people, that they, not able to conceiue all those thinges, vtterly gaue o­uer all, falling backe to Poperie, or remai­ning still in their former ignorance. Yea, if I, sayde his Maiestie, shoulde haue beene bound to his forme, the confession of my faith must haue bene in my table booke, not in my head. But because you speake of Intention, sayth his Highnesse, I vvill apply it thus, If you come hither with a good intention, to bee informed and sa­tisfied where you shall find iust cause, the whole worke will sorte to the better ef­fect; but if your Intention bee to goe as you came (whatsoeuer shall bee sayde) it will proue that the Intention is verie ma­teriall, and essentiall to the ende of this, [Page 40] present action.To the other parte for the nine Assertions, his Maiestie could not, suddenly, aunswere, because hee vnderstood not what the Doctor meant by those assertions or propositions at Lambeth; but when it was enformed his Maiestie, that, by reason of some contro­uersies, arising in Cambridge, about certain pointes of Diuinitie; my Lordes Grace assembled some Diuines, of speciall note, to set downe their opinions, vvhich they drevve into nine assertions, and so sent them to the Vniuersitie, for the appeafing of those quarrels; then his Maiestie aun­swered, first, that when such questions arise among Schollers, the quietest procee­ding were, to determine them in the V­niuersities, and not to stuffe the booke with all conclusions Theologicall. Se­condly, the better course would be to pu­nish the broachers of false doctrine, as oc­casion should be offered▪ for were the Articles neuer so manie and sound, vvho can preuent the contrary opinions of men [Page 41] till they be heard?

Vpon this the Deane of Powles, knee­ling dovvne, humbly desired leaue to speake, signifying vnto his Maiestie that this matter somewhat more nearly con­cerned him, by reason of controuersie be­tweene him and some other in Cambridge, vpon a proposition which he had deliue­red there. Namely, that whosoeuer (though before iustified) did commit any grieuous sin, as adultery, murther, treason, or the like, did become, ipso facto, subiect to Gods wrath, and guilty of damnation, or were in state of damnation (quoad prae­sentem statum) vntill they did repent; adding hereunto, that those which were called and iustified according to the purpose of Gods election, hovvsoeuer they might, and did, sometime, fall into grieuous sins, and thereby into the present state of wrath and damnation; yet did neuer fall either totally from all the graces of God to be vt­terly destitute of all the partes and seede thereof, nor finally from iustification, [Page 42] but were in time renued, by Gods spirit, vnto a liuely faith, and repentance, and so iustified from those sinnes, and the wrath, curse, and guilt annexed thereunto, where­into they were fallen, and wherein they lay so long as they were without true re­pentance for the same. Against which doct­rine, hee saide, that some had opposed, teaching that all such persons as were once truely instified, though after they fel into neuer so grieuous sinnes, yet remained still iust, or in the state of iustification, be­fore they actually repented of those sinnes; yea and though they neuer repented of them, through forgetfulnesse or sudden death, yet they should bee iustified and sa­ued without repentance. In vtter dislike of this Doctrine his Maiestie entred into a longer speech of predestination, and re­probation, then before, and of the neces­sary conioyning repentance and holinesse of life with true faith: concluding that it was hypocrisie, and not true iustifying fayth, which was seuered from them: [Page 43] for although predestination, and election dependeth not vpon any qualities, actiōs, or works of man, which be mutable; but vpon God his eternall and immutable de­cree and purpose: yet such is the necessitie of repentance, after knowne sinnes com­mitted, as that, without it there could not be either reconciliation with God, or re­mission of those sinnes.

Next to this, Doctor Reynalds complai­ned, that the Catechisme in the Common prayer booke, was too briefe, for which one by Maister Nowell, late Deane of Paules was added, and that too long for young nouices to learne by heart: reque­sted therefore, that one vniforme Cate­chisme might bee made, which, and none other, might be generally receiued: it was asked of him, whether if, to the short Cate­chisme in the Communion Booke, something were added for the doctrine of the Sacraments it would not serue? His Maiestie thought the Doctors request very reasonable: but yet so, that hee would [Page 44] haue a Catechisme in the fewest and plai­nest affirmatiue termes that may bee: tax­ing withall the number of ignorant Cate­chismes set out in Scotland, by euerie one that was the Sonne of a Good man: inso­much as, that which was Catechisme do­ctrine in one congregation, was in ano­ther scarsely accepted as sound and Ortho­dox; wished, therefore, one to bee made and agreed vppon; adding this excellent, gnomicall, and Canon-like Conclusion, that in the reforming of a Church, he wold haue two rules obserued, first, that old cu­rious, deepe and intricate questions might be auoided in the fundamentall instructi­on of a people. Secondly, that there should not be any such departure from the Papistes in all thinges, as that, because we in some pointes agree with them, there­fore wee should bee accounted to bee in errour.

To the former, D. Reynoldes added6 the prophanation of the Sabboth day, and [Page 45] contempt of his Maiesties Proclamation made for the reforming of that abuse, of which hee earnestly desired a straighter course for reformation thereof, and to this he found a general and vnanimous assent.7

After that, he moued his Maiestie, that there might bee a newe translation of the Bible, because, those which were allow­ed in the raignes of Henrie the eight, and Edward the sixt, were corrupt and not aunswerable to the truth of the Originall. For example, first, Galathians, 4. 25. the Greeke worde [...], is not well trans­lated, as nowe it is, Bordreth, neither expressing the force of the worde, nor the Apostles sense, nor the situation of the place.

Secondly, Psalme, 105. 28. they were not obedient; The Originall beeing, They were not disobedient.

Thirdly, Psalme, 106. verse 30. Then stood vp Phinees and prayed, the Hebrew hath Executed iudgement. To which [Page 46] motion, there was, at the present, no gain­saying, the obiections beeing triuiall and old, and alreadie, in print, often aunswe­red; onely, my Lord of London well added, that if euery mans humour should be fol­lowed, there would be no ende of trans­lating. VVhereupon his Highnesse wi­shed, that some especiall paines should be taken in that behalfe for one vniforme translation (professing that hee could ne­uer, yet, see a Bible well translated in Eng­lish; but the worst of all, his Maiestie thought the Geneua to bee) and this to bee done by the best learned in both the Vni­uersities, after them to bee reuiewed by the Bishops, and the chiefe learned of the Church; from them to bee presented to the Priuie-Councell; and lastly to bee rati­fied by his Royall authoritie; and so this whole Church to be bound vnto it, and none other: Marry, withall, hee gaue this caueat (vpon a word cast out by my Lord of London) that no marginall notes [Page 47] should be added, hauing found in them, which are annexed to the Geneua transla­tion (which he sawe in a Bible giuen him by an English Lady) some notes very par­tiall, vntrue, seditious, and sauouring too much, of daungerous, and trayterous con­ceites: As for example, Exod. 1. 19. where the marginall note alloweth disobedience to Kings. And 2. Chron. 15. 16. the note taxeth Asa for deposing his mother, onely, and not killing her: And so concludeth this point, as all the rest with a graue and iudicious aduise. First, that errours in matters of faith might bee rectified and amended. Secondly, that matters indifferent might rather be interrupted, and a glosse added; alleaging from Burtolus de regno, that as better a King with some weakenesse, then still a chaunge; so rather a Church with some faultes, then an Innouation. And sure ly, sayth his Maiestie, if these bee the grea­test matters you be grieued with, I neede not haue beene troubled with such impor­tunities and complaintes, as haue beene [Page 48] made vnto me; some other more priuate course might haue bene taken for your sa­tisfaction, and withall looking vppon the Lords, he shooke his head, smiling.

The last point (noted by D. Reyn.) in8 this first head, for doctrine, was, that, vn­lawfull and seditious bookes, might bee suppressed, at least restrained, and impar­ted to a few: for by the libertie of pub­lishing such bookes, so commonly, ma­ny young Schollers, and vnsetled mindes in both Vniuersities, and through the whole Realme were corrupted, and per­uerted; naming for one instance, that Booke intituled, De iure Magistratus in Subditos, published, of late, by Ficlerus a Papist, and applied against the Queenes Maiestie that last was, for the Pope: The Bishop of London supposing, as it seemed, himselfe to bee principally aymed at, aun­swered, first, to the generall, that there vvas no such licentious divulging of those bookes, as he imagined or complai­ned of: and that none, except it vvere [Page 49] such as D. Reyn. who were supposed, would confute them, had libertie, by au­thoritie, to buy them: Againe, such books, came into the Realme by many secret con­ueyances, so that there could not bee a per­fect notice had of their importation: Se­condly, to the particular instaunce of Ficle­rus, hee saide, that the author De iure, &c. was a great Disciplinarian; whereby it did appeare, what aduantage that sorte gaue vnto the Papistes, who mutatis personis, could apply their owne argumentes a­gainst Princes of the Religion: but for his owne parte, hee saide, hee detested both the Author and the Applyer alike. My Lord Cecill here taxing, also, the vnlimited liber­tie of the dispersing and diuulging these Popish and seditious Pamphletes, both in Powles Churchyeard, & the Vniuersities, instanced one lately set forth, & published; namely, Speculū Tragicum, which both his Mtie. & the L. Henry Howard, now Earle of Northampton, termed a daungerous booke, both for matter & intention:) & the Lord [Page 50] Chauncellor, also diuiding all such bookes into Latine and English, concluded, that, these last, dispersed, did most harme: yet the Lord Secretarie affirmed, that my Lord of London, had done therein what might bee, for the suppressing of them; and that he knewe no man else, had done any thing in that kinde but he. At length, it pleased his excellent Maiestie, to tell D. Reyn. that hee was a better Colledge man, then a States­man; for if his meaning were, to taxe the Bishop of London, for suffering those bookes, betwixt the Secular Priestes, and Iesuites lately published, so freely to passe abroad; His Maiestie would haue him and his Associates to know, and willed them al­so to acquaint their adherents, and friendes abroad therewith, that the saide Bishoppe was much iniured and slaundered in that behalfe, who did nothing therein, but by warrant from the Lordes of the Coun­cell, whereby, both a Schisme betwixt them was nourished, & also his Maiesties owne cause and Title handled: the Lord [Page 51] Cecill affirming thereunto, that therefore they were tolerated, because, in them, was the Title of Spaine confuted. The L. Trea­surer added, that D. Reyn. might haue ob­serued another vse of those Bookes; viz. that now by the testimony of the Priestes themselues, her late Maiestie, and the State were cleared of that imputation, of put­ting Papistes to death, for their consciences onely, and for their Religion, seeing, in those books, they themselues confesse, that they were executed for treason. D. Reyn. excused himselfe, expounding his cōplaint, not meant of such bookes, as had beene printed in England, but such as came from beyond the Seas, as Commentaries both in Philosophy and diuinitie. And these were the partes of the first head, concerning puri­tie of Doctrine.

Touching Pastors
  • Resident
  • Learned.

To the second generall point concer­ning2 the planting of Ministers learned, in euery Parish; it pleased his Maiestie to [Page 52] aunswere,that hee had consulted with his Bishops about that, whome hee found willing and readie, to second him in it: inueighing, herein, against the negligence and carelesnesse which hee heard of many in this land; but, as Subita euacuatio was periculosa, so subita mutatio. Therefore this matter was not for a present resolu­tion, because to appoint to euery Parrish, a sufficient Minister, were impossible, the Vniuersities would not afford them; Again, he had fouud alreadie, that hee had more learned men in this Realme, then hee had sufficient maintenance for; so that main­tenance must first bee prouided, and then the other to bee required: In the meane time, ignorant Ministers, if young, to be remoued, if there were no hope of their amendment; if olde, their death must bee expected, that the next course may bee better supplyed: and so concluded this point, with a most religious and zealous protestation, of doing something dayly in this case, because Ierusalem could not [Page 53] be built vp in a day. The Bishoppe of Winchester made knowne to the King, that this insufficiency of the Cleargie, bee it as it is, comes not by the Bishops defaultes; but partly, by Lay Patrones, who present very meane men to their Cures; wherof, in him­selfe, hee shewed an Instance, how that since his being Bishop of Winchester, very fewe Maisters of Artes were presented to good Benefices: partly, by the law of the land, which admitteth of very meane and tollerable sufficiēcy in any Clearks; so that, if the Bishop should not admit them; then presently, a Quare impedit is sent out against him.

Here my Lord of London, kneeling, humbly desired his Maiestie (because hee saw, as hee saide, it was a time of mouing Petitions) that hee might haue leaue, to make two or three. First, that there1 might be amongst vs, a Praying Ministerie another while; for whereas; there are, in the Ministerie, many excellent duties to be performed, as the absoluing of the Pe­nitent, [Page 54] Praying for, and blessing of the peo­ple, administring of the Sacraments, and the like; it is come to that passe now, that some sort of men thought it the onely dutie required of a Minister, to spend the time in speaking out of a Pulpit; sometimes, God wot, very vndiscreetly and vnlearnedly: and this, with so great iniury and preiu­dice, to the celebratiō of Diuine seruice, that some Ministers would be content to walk in the Churchyeard, till Sermon time, ra­ther then to be present at publke Prayer. He confessed, that in a Church, new to be planted, preaching was most necessarie; but among vs, now long established in the faith, he thought it not the onely necessa­ry dutie to bee performed, and the other to be so profanely neglected and contemned. VVhich motion his Maiestie liked excee­ding well, very acutely taxing the hypocri­sie of our times, which placeth all Religion in the eare, through which, there is an easy passage: but Prayer, which expresseth the [Page 55] heartes affection, and is the true deuotion of the mindes as a matter putting vs to o­uer-much trouble, (wherin there concurre, if prayer be as it ought, an vnpartiall consi­deration of our owne estates, a due exami­nation to whome we pray, an humble cō ­fession of our sinnes, with an harty sorrow for them, and repentance not seuered from faith) is accounted and vsed as the least part of Religion.

The second was▪ that till such time as learned and sufficient men might bee plan­ted in euery Congregation, that godly Ho­milies might be read, and the number of thē encreased, and that the Opponents would labour to bring them into credite againe, as formerly they brought them into con­tempt. Euery man (saith hee) that can pro­nounce well, cannot indite well.

The Kinges Maiestie approued this motion, especially, where the liuing is not sufficient for maintenance of a lear­ned Preacher; as also in places, where [Page 56] plenty of Sermons are, as in the Citie and great Townes. In the Countrey villages where Preachers are not neare together, hee could wish preaching, but where there are a multitude of Sermons, there he would haue Homilies to bee read diuerse times: and therein hee asked the assent of the Plaintiffes, and they confesse it. A preaching Ministery, sayeth his Maiestie, was best, but where it might not bee had, godly prayers and exhortations did much good. That, that may be done, let it, and let the rest, that cannot, bee tollerated. Somewhat was here spoken by the Lord Chancelor, of liuinges, rather wanting learned men, then learned men liuinges. Many in the Vniuersities pining, Maisters, Batchelors, and vpwardes: wishing therefore, that some might haue single coates, before other had dublets; & here his L. shewed the course, that hee had euer taken, in bestowing the Kinges Benefi­ces. My Lord of London commending his Honourable care that way, withall ex­cepted, [Page 57] that a dublet was necessary in cold weather; the L. Chancelor replied, that he did it not for dislike of the libertie of our Church, in granting one man 2. benefices, but out of his owne priuate purpose and practise groūded vpō the foresaid reason.

The last motion by my L. of London, was, that Pulpits might not be made Pas­quilles, wherein euery humorous, or dis­contented fellow might traduce his supe­riours. Which the King very gratiously accepted, exceedingly reprouing that, as a lewde custome; threatning, that if hee should but heare of such a one in a Pul­pit, hee would make him an example: concluding with a sage admonition to the Opponents, that euery man shoulde solicite and drawe his friendes to make peace, and if anything were amisse in the Church officers, not to make the Pulpit the place of personall reproofe, but to let his Maiestie heare of it: yet by degrees. First, let Complaint be to the Ordinarie of the place; from him to goe to the Archbi­shoppe; [Page 58] from him, to the Lordes of his Maiesties Councell; and from them, if in all these places no remedie is founde, to his owne selfe. Which Caueat his Ma­iestie put in, for that the Bishop of London had tolde him, that if hee left himselfe o­pen to admit of all complaints, neither his Maiestie should euer bee quiet, nor his vnder Officers regarded: seeing, that now alreadie no fault can bee censured, but presently the Delinquent threatneth a complaint to the King: and for an instance, he added, how a Printer, whome hee had taken faulty, very lately answered him in that very kinde.

D. Reyn. commeth now to Subscription, (which concerneth the fourth generall heade, as hee first propounded it, namely, The Communion booke,) taking occasion to leape into it here, as making the vrging of it to be a great impeachment to a learned Ministery; & therefore intreated, it might not be exacted as heretofore, for which many good men were kept out, other re­moued, [Page 59] & many disquieted. To subscribe according to the statutes of the Realme, namely, to the Articles of Religion, and the Kinges Supremacy, they were not vn­willing. The reason of their backward­nesse to subscribe otherwise was, first, the bookes Apocryphall; which the Com­mon Praier booke enioyned to bee reade in the Church albeit, there are, in some of those Chapters appointed, manifest errors, directly repugnāt to the scriptures; the particular instance, which hee then in­ferred was, Eccles. 48. 10. where hee char­ged the author of that booke, to haue held the same opinion with the Iewes at this day; namely, that Elias in person, was to come before Christ, and therefore as yet Christ, by that reason, not come in the flesh; and so, consequently, it implyed a denial of the chief Article of our redemp­tion: his reason, of thus charging the Au­thour, was, because that Ecclus. vsed the very wordes of Elias in person, which the Prophet Malachy, Chap. 4. doth apply to [Page 60] an Elias in resemblance, which both an angell, Luke 1. 17. and our Sauiour Christ Math. 11. did interprete to be Iohn Baptist. The answere was, as the obiection, two­fold. First, generall, for Apocrypha bookes; The Bishop of London shewing, first, for the antiquitie of them, that the most of the obiections made against those bookes, were the old Cauils of the Iewes, renew­ed by S. Hierome in his time, who was the first that gaue them the name of Apocry­pha: which opinion, vpon Ruffinus his chalenge, hee, after a sort disclaimed; the rather, because a generall offence was taken at his speeches in that kinde. First, for the continuāce of them in the Church, out of Kimidoncius and Chemnitius, two moderne writers.

The Bishoppe of Winton remembred the distinction of Saint Ierome, Canonici sunt ad informandos mores, non ad confirman­dam fidem, which distinction hee saide, must be held for the iustifying of sundry Coun­cels.

[Page 61]His Maiestie in the ende, saide hee would take an euen order betweene both, affirming, that hee woulde not wish all Canonicall bookes to be read in the Church, vnlesse there were one to interprete; nor any Apocrypha at all, wherein there was a­ny error; but for the other, which were cleare, & correspondent to the scriptures, he would haue them read, for else, sayeth his Maiestie, why were they printed? and therein shewed the vse of the Bookes of Machabees, very good to make vp the sto­ry of the persecution of the Iewes; but, not to teach a man either to sacrifice for the dead, or to kill himselfe.

And here his Highnesse arose from his chaire, & withdrew himself into his inner chamber a little space: in the meane time a great questioning was amōgst the Lords, about that place of Eccles. with which, as if it had beene their rest and vpshot, they beganne, afresh, at his Maiesties re­turne. Who▪ seeing them so to vrge it, and stand vpon it, calling for a Bible, first, [Page 62] shewed the author of that booke, who hee was; then the cause, why hee wrote that booke; next analyzed the Chapter it selfe, shewing the precedentes and conse­quentes thereof; lastly, so exactly and di­uinelike, vnfolded the summe of that place, arguing, and demonstrating, that whatsoeuer Ben Sirach had saide, there, of Elias, Elias had in his owne person, while hee liued, performed and accomplished; so that the Susurrus, at the first mention, was not so great, as the astonishment was now at the King his so sodaine and sound, and indeede, so admirable an interpretati­on; concluding, first, with a serious checke to Doctor Reynaldes, that it was not good to impose vpon a man, that was dead, a sense neuer meant by him: se­condly, with a pleasant Apostrophe to the Lordes; What, trowe yee, makes these men so angry with Ecclesiasticus? by my soule, I thinke hee was a Bishoppe, or else they would neuer vse him so. But for the generall, it was appointed by [Page 63] his Maiestie, that Doctor Reyn. should note those chapters in the Apocrypha bookes, where those offensiue places were, and should bring them vnto the Lord Arch­shop of Canterburie against VVednesday next; and so he was willed to goe on.

The next scruple against Subscription 2 was, that olde Crambe bis posita, that in the Common Prayer booke, it is twise set downe, Iesus saide to his Disciples; when as by the text originall it is plaine, that he spake to the Pharisies. To which it was aunswered, that for ought that coulde ap­peare by the places, hee might speake as­well to his Disciples, they beeing present, as to the Pharisees. But his Maiestie kee­ping an euen hand, willed that the worde Disciples shoulde bee omitted, and the wordes, Iesus said, to bee Printed in a dif­ferent letter, that it might appeare, not to be a part of the text.

The third obiection against Subscripti.3 on, were Interogatories in baptisme, pro­pounded to Infantes: which, being a [Page 64] profound point, was put vpon M. Knew­stubs to pursue: who, in a long and per­plexed speech, saide something out of S. Austen, that baptizare was credere, but what it was his Maiestie plainely confessed, E­go non intelligo; and asked the Lords what they thought hee meant? it seemed that one present, conceiued him; for hee standing at his backe, bid him vrge that punct, vrge that punct, that is, a good point: my Lord of VVinton, aiming at his meaning, shewed him the vse thereof out of S. Austen; and added the Fathers reason for it, Qui peccauit in altero, credat in altero: which was seconded by his Maiestie (whome it pleased, for the rest of the matters which followed, him selfe alone to answere; and iustly, might hee appropriate it to himselfe, for none present were able, with quicker conceit to vnderstand, with a more singular dex­teritie to refute, with a more iudicious re­solution to determine, then his Maiestie; herein being more admirable, that these [Page 65] points, wherein some thought him preiu­diciall to the contrarie, all of vs suppo­sed him to haue beene but a stranger to them, he could so intelligently apprehend and so readily argue about them,) it was, I say, seconded by his Maiesty; by reason, that the question should bee propounded to the party, whome it principally concer­ned; secondly by example of himselfe, to whom interrogatories were propounded, when he was crowned in his infancie, king of Scotland.

And here his Maiestie, (as hereafter, at the end of euery obiection hee did) asked them whether they had any more to say?

M. Knewstubs tooke exceptions to the 4 Crosse in Baptisme, which were in number, two. First, the offence of Weake brethren, 1 grounded vpon the words of Saint Paule, Rom. 14. and 1. Cor. 8. viz, the Consciences of the weake, not to bee offended: which places his excellent Maiestie aunswered most acutely, beginning with that generall rule of the Fathers; Distingue tempora, [Page 66] & concordabunt Scripturae; shewing heere the difference of those times and ours; then a Church not fully planted, nor settled: but ours long stablished and flourishing: then Christians newely called from Paga­nisme, and not throughly grounded; which is not the case of this Church, see­ing that Heathenish doctrine, for manie yeares, hath beene hence abandoned. Se­condly, with a question vnanswerable, asking them how long they woulde bee weake? whether 45. yeares were not suf­ficient for them to growe strong? 3. Who they were that pretended this weaknesse; for wee, saith the King, require not now Subscription of Laikes & Idiots, but Prea­chers and Ministers, who are not still, I trow, to be fed with milke, but are ena­bled to feede others. 4. That is was to bee doubted, some of them were strong e­nough, if not headstrong; and howsoeuer they in this case pretended weakenesse; yet some, in whose behalfe they nowe spake, thought themselues able to teach him, and [Page 67] all the Bishops of the land.

His obiection against the Crosse con­sisted of three Interrogatories. 1. Whether 1 the Church had power to institute an externall significant signe? to which was replyed, first, that hee did mistake the vse of the Crosse with vs, which was not vsed in Bap­tisme, any otherwise then onely, as a cere­monie. Secondly, by their owne example, who make imposition of handes in their ordination of Pastors, to be a signe signi­ficant.

Thirdly, in prayer, saieth the Bishoppe of Winton, the kneeling on the grounde; the lifting vp of our handes; the knoc­king of our breastes are Ceremonics sig­nificant: the first, of our humilitie com­ming before the mightie God, the second, of our confidence and hope, the other, of our sorrow & detestation of our sins, and these are, and may lawfully bee vsed. Lastly, M. Deane of the Chappell, remem­bred the practise of the Iewes, who vnto the institution of the Passeouer, pre­scribed [Page 68] vnto them by Moses, had as the Rabbines witnesse added both signes and words, eating sowre hearbs, and drinking wine, with these words to both, Take, and eate these in remembrance, &c. Drinke this in remembrance, &c. Vpon which addition and tradition of theirs, our Sauiour in­stituted the Sacrament of his last Sup­per, in celebrating it with the same wordes, and after the same manner; there­by approuing, that fact of theirs in parti­cular; and generally, that a Church may institute and retaine a signe significant: which satisfied his Maiestie exceeding well.

And here the king desired, to haue him­selfe made acquainted about the antiqui­tie of the vse of the Crosse. Which Doctor Reynaldes confessed, to haue beene euer since the Apostles times, but this was the difficulty, to proue it, of that auncient vse in Baptisme. For that, at their going a­broad, or entering into the Church, or at their Prayers and benedictions, it was v­sed [Page 69] by the Auncients, desired no greate proofe: but whether, in Baptisme, Anti­quitie approued it, was the doubt cast in, by M. Deane of Sarum, whome his Maie­stie singled out, with a speciall Encomion, that hee was a man well trauelled in the Auncients: which doubt was answered, obsignatis tabulis, by the Deane of Westmin­ster, (whome the Kings Maiestie, vpon my Lord of London his motion, willed to speake to that poynt) out of Tertullian, Cyprian, Origen and others, that it was v­sed in Immortali lauacro: which wordes being a little descanted, it fell from one, I thinke it was my Lord of VVinchester, obi­ter, to say, that, in Constantine his time, it was vsed in Baptisme. What, quoth the King, and is it now come to that passe, that wee shall appeach Constantine of Popery and superstition; if then it were vsed, saith his Maiesty, I see no reason, but that still wee may continue it.

M. Knewstubs his second question was,2 that put case, the Church had such pow­er [Page 70] to adde significant signes, whether it might, there adde them, where Christ had already ordayned one; which hee saide, was no lesse derogatorie to Christes insti­tution, as he thought, then if any Potentate of this land, should presume to adde his seale, vnto the great seale of England. To which his Maiesty answered, that the case was not alike, for that no signe or thing was added to the Sacrament, which was fully and perfectly finished, before a­ny mention of the Crosse is made; for confirmation whereof, hee willed the place to be read.

Lastly, if the Church had that power3 also, yet the greatest scruple to their Con­science was, how farre such an ordinance of the Church, was to binde them, with­out impeaching their Christian Libertie? whereat, the King, as it seemed, was much moued, and tolde him, hee would not argue that point with him, but aunswere therein, as Kinges are wont to speake in Parliament, Le Roy [Page 71] J'auiserá: adding withall, that it smelled ve­ry rankly of Anabaptisme: comparing it vnto the vsage of a beardlesse boy, (one M. Iohn Black) who the last Conference his Maiestie had with the Ministers in Scotland, (in December, 1602.) tolde him, that hee woulde holde conformitie with his Maiesties ordinances, for matters of doctrine: but for matters of Ceremo­nie, they were to bee left in Christian Liber­tie, vnto euery man, as hee receiued more and more light from the illumination of Gods spirit; euen till they goe mad, quoth the King, with their owne light: but I will none of that, I will haue one Doctrine and one discipline, one Religion in substance, and in ceremonie: and therefore I charge you, neuer speake more to that point, (how farre you are bound to obey?) when the Church hath ordained it. And so asked them again, if they had anything else to say?

D. Reynaldes obiected the example of the Brasen Serpent, demolished & stampt [Page 72] to powder by Ezechias, because the peo­ple abused it to Idolatry: wishing, that, in like sort, the Crosse should bee abandoned, because, in the time of Popery, it had beene superstitiously abused. Whereun­to the Kings Maiesty answered diuerse waies. First, quoth hee, though I bee suf­ficiently perswaded of the Crosse in Bap­tisme, and the commendable vse thereof in the Church so long: yet, if there were nothing else to moue mee, this verie argu­ment were an inducement to mee, for the retaining of it, as it is now by order esta­blished: For, inasmuch, as it was abused, so you say, to superstition, in time of pope­ry, it doth plainely imply, that is was well vsed before Popery. I will tell you, I haue liued among this sorte of men, (speaking to the Lords, and Bishops,) euer since I was tenne yeares olde, but I may say of my selfe, as Christ did of himselfe: Though I liued amongst them, yet since I had abilitye to iudge, I was neuer of them; neither did a­ny [Page 73] thing make mee more to condemne, and detest their courses, then that they did so peremptorily disallow of all thinges, which at all had beene vsed in Popery. For my part, I knowe not how to answere the obiection of the Papistes, when they charge vs with nouelties: but truely to tel them, that their abuses are newe, but the thinges, which they abused wee retaine in their primitiue vse, and forsake, onely, the nouell corruption. By this argument, wee might renounce the Trinity, and all that is holie, because it was abused in Po­perie: (and speaking to Doctor Reyn. merily) they vsed to weare hose & shooes in Popery, therefore, you shall, now, go barefoote.

Secondly, quoth his Maiestie, what re­semblance2is there, betweene the Brasen Serpent, a materiall visible thing, and the signe of the Crosse made in the ayre?

Thirdly, I am giuen to vnderstande3by the Bishops, and I finde it true, that the Papistes themselues, did neuer ascribe a­ny [Page 74] power or spirituall grace to the Signe of the Crosse in baptisme.

Fourthly, you see, that the materiall4Crosses, which in time of Popery were made, for men to fall downe before them, as they passed by them, to worship them (as the Idolatrous Iewes did the Brasen Serpent) are demolished, as you desire.

The next thing, which was obiected, was, the wearing of the Surplis, a kinde of garment which the Priestes of Isis vsed to weare. Surely, saith his Maiestie, till of late, I did not thinke, that it had bene borrowed from the Heathen, because, it is commonly termed, aragge of Poperie, in scorne; but were it so, yet neither did wee now border vpon Heathenish nations, neither are any of them conuer­sant with vs, or commorant among vs, who, thereby, might take occasion to bee strengthened, or confirmed in Paganisme; for, then there were iust cause to suppresse the wearing of it: but seeing, it appeared, out of antiquitie, that in the celebration [Page 75] of diuine seruice, a different habite apper­tained to the ministerie, and principally, of white Linnen; hee sawe no reason, but that in this Church, as it had beene for comelinesse and for order sake, it might be still continued. This being his constant & resolute opinion, that no Church ought further to separate it selfe, from the Church of Rome, either in Doctrine or Ceremony, then shee had departed from her selfe, when shee was in her florishing and best estate, and from Christ her Lord & head. And heere, againe, he asked, what more they had to say?

D. Reyn. tooke exceptions at those wordes, in the Common Prayer Booke, of Matrimonie, VVith my bodie I thee wor­ship. His Maiestie looking vpon the place; I was made beleeue, (saith hee,) that the Phrase, did import no lesse then Diuine worship, and adoration: but by examinati­on I finde, that it is an vsuall Eng­lish terme, as a Gentleman of Worshippe, &c. and the sense agreeable to Scrip­tures; [Page 76] giuing honour to the wife, &c. But tur­ning to Doctor Reyn. (with smiling, saith his Maiestie,) Many a man speakes of Robin Hood, who neuer shot in his bowe, if you had a good wife your selfe, you would thinke, all the honour and Wor­shippe you could doe her, were well be­stowed.

The Deane of Sarum, mentioned the Ring in marriage; which Doctor Reyn, approued, and the King confessed, that hee was married withall; and added, that hee thought, they woulde proue to bee scarse well maried, who are not maried with a Ring.

He likewise spake, of the Churching of women, by the name of Purification: which being read out of the Booke, his Maiestie very well allowed it, and pleasantly saide, that women were loath enough of them­selues, to come to Church, and therefore, he would haue this, or any other occasion, to drawe them thither.

And this was the substance and summe [Page 77] of that third generall point. At which pause, it growing toward night, his Ma­iestie asked againe, if they had any more to say? if they had, because it was late, they should haue another day; but Doctor Reyn. told him, they had but one pointe more, which was the last generall heade: but it pleased his Maiestie, first, to aske what they could say to the Cornerd Cap? they all approued it; well then, saith his Maiestie, turning himselfe to the Bishops, you may now safely weare your Caps, but I shall tell you, if you should walke in one streete in Scotland, with such a Cap on your head, if I were not with you, you shoulde bee stoned to death with your Cap.

In the fourth generall heade touching Discipline D. Reyn. first tooke exception, to the committing of Ecclesiasticall cen­sures, vnto Lay-Chancelors; his reason was, that, in the Statute made in King Henrie his time, for their authoritie that way, was abrogated in Queene Maries [Page 78] time, and not reuiued in the late Queenes daies: and abridged by Bishops them­selues, 1571. ordering that the said LayChā ­celors should not excommunicate in mat­ters of correction; and Anno 1584. and 1589▪ not in matters of Instance, but to bee done only by them, who had power of the Keyes: His Maiestie answered, that hee had al­ready conferred with his Bishoppes, about that point, and that such order should be taken therein, as was conuenient; wil­ling him in the meane time, to goe to some other matter, if hee had any.Then hee desireth, that according to certaine Prouincial Constitutions, they of the Clergy might haue meetinges once euery three weekes; first in Rurall Deanries, and1. Cor. 14. therein to haue Prophecying, according as the Reuerend Father, Archbishoppe Grindal, and other Bishops desired of her late Ma­iestie. 2. that such things, as could not be resolued vpon, there, might bee refer­red to the Archdeacons Uisitation: and so 3. from thence to the Episcopall Synode, [Page 79] where the Bishoppe with his Presbyteri, Act. 21. should determine all such pointes, as be­fore could not be decided.

At which speech, his Maiestie was somewhat stirred; yet, which is admirable in him, without passion or shewe there­of: thinking, that they aymed at a Scot­tish Presbytery, which saith hee, as well a­greeth with a Monarchy, as God, and the Diuell. Then Iack and Tom, and Will, and Dick, shall meete, and at their pleasures censure me, and my Councell, and all our proceedings: Then VVill shall stand vp, and say, it must bee thus; then Dick shall reply, and say, nay, mary, but wee will haue it thus. And therefore, here I must once reiterate my former speech, Le Roy s'auisera: Stay, I pray you, for one seauen yeares, before you demaunde that of mee: and if then, you finde mee purseye and fat, and my winde pipes stuffed, I will per­haps hearken to you: for let that gouern­ment bee once vp, I am sure, I shall bee kept in breath; then shall wee all of vs, [Page 80] haue worke enough, both our hands full. But Doctor Reyn. til you finde that I grow lazy, let that alone.

And here, because D. Reyn. had twise before obtruded the Kings Supremacie, 1. In the Article, concerning the Pope; 2. in the point of Subscription, his Maiestie at those times saide nothing: but now grow­ing to an end, he saide, I shall speake of one matter more; yet, somewhat out of order, but it skilleth not. Doctor Rein. quoth the K. you haue often spoken for my Supremacie, and it is well: but knowe you any here, or any elsewhere, who like of the present Gouernement Ecclesiasticall, that finde fault, or dislike my Supremacie? D. Rein. saide no; why then, saith his Ma­iestie, I will tell you a tale. After that the Religion restored by King Edwarde the sixt was soone ouerthrowne, by the succession of Queene Marie, here in England, wee in Scotland felt the effect of it. Whereupon Mas. Knoxe writes to the Queene Regent (of whome with­out [Page 81] flattery, I may say, that she was a ver­tuous and moderate Lady) telling her that she was Supreme head of the Church, and charged her, as shee would aunswere it before Gods Tribunall, to take care of Christ his Euangil, and of suppressing the Popish Prelates, who vvithstoode the same. But how long, trovv yee, did this continue? euen so long, till by her autho­rity, the popish Bishops were repressed▪ hee, himselfe, and his adherents vvere brought in, and well setled, and by these meanes, made strong enough, to vnder­take the matters of Reformation thēselues. Then, loe, they began to make small ac­count of her Supremacy, nor vvould lon­ger rest vpon her authoritie, but tooke the cause into their ovvne hand, & according to that more light, wherewith they were illuminated, made a further reformation of Religion. How they vsed that poore La­dy my mother, is not vnknowne, and vvith griefe I may remember it: vvho, because, shee had not beene otherwise [Page 82] instructed, did desire, only a priuate Chap­pell, vvherein to serue God, after her man­ner, with some few selected persons; but her Supremacy was not sufficient to ob­taine it at their hands. And howe they dealt with me, in my Minoritie, you all know; it was not done secretly, &, thogh I would, I cannot conceale it. I will ap­ply it thus. And then putting his hand to his hat, his Maiestie saide; my Lordes the Bishops, I may thanke you, that these men doe thus pleade for my Supremacie; They thinke they cannot make their par­ty good against you, but by appealing vnto it, as if you, or some that adhere vnto you, were not well affected towardes it. But if once you were out, and they in place, I knowe what would become of my Supremacie. No Bishop, no King, as before I sayd. Neither doe I thus speake, at randon, without ground, for I haue obserued since my comming into Eng­land, that some Preachers before me, can be content to pray for Iames, King of Eng­land, [Page 83] Scotland, Fraunce and Ireland, defendor of the faith, but as for Supreme Gouernour in all causes, and ouerall persons, (as well Ecclesiasticall as Ciuill) they passe that ouer with silence; & what out they haue beene of, I after learned. After this as­king them, if they had any more to ob­iect; and D. Reyn. aunswering, Noe, his Maiestie appointed the next Wednesday for both parties to meete before him, and ri­sing from his Chaire, as hee was going to his inner Chamber, If this bee all, quoth he, that they haue to say, I shall make thē conforme themselues, or I will harrie them out of the land, or else do worse.

And this was the Summe of the second dayes Conference, which raised such an admiration in the Lordes, in respect of the King his singular readinesse, and exact knowledge; that one of them sayde, hee was fully perswaded, his Maiestie spake by the instinct of the spirite of God. My L. Cecill acknowledged, that very much we are bound to God, who had giuen vs [Page 84] a King of an vnderstanding heart. My Lord Chancelor, passing out of the Priuy­Chamber, said vnto the Deane of Chester, standing by the dore; I haue often hearde and read, that Rex est mixta persona cum sa­cerdote, but I neuer saw the truth thereof, till this day.

Surely, whosoeuer heard his Maiesty, might iustly thinke; that title did more properly fitte him, which Eunapius gaue to that famous Rhetoritian, in saying that he was, [...]; a Liuing Libra­ry, and a walking Study.

Finis secundae diei.


VPon Wednesday, Ianua­ry 18. all the Bishops afore named, attended at the Court, and the Deanes: who were all called into the Priuie Chamber, and who so else, my Lord Archbishop appointed, (for such was his Maiesties pleasure) where­uppon the Knightes and Doctors of the Arches, viz. Sir Daniel Dunne, Sir Thomas Crompton, Sir Richard Swale, Sir Iohn Ben­net, and D. Drury entred. As soone as the King was set, the Lord Archbishoppe [Page 86] presented vnto him a note of those points, which his Maiesty had referred to their consideration, vpon the first day, and the alteration, or rather explanation▪ of them, in our Liturgie.

  • 1. Absolution or Remission of sinnes, in the Rubrike of Absolution.
  • 2. In priuate Baptisme, the lawfull Minister present:
  • 3. Examination, with Confirmation of Children.
  • 4. Iesus sayd to them; twise to bee put into the Dominicall Gospels: in stead of Iesus sayd to his Disciples.

His Maiestie, here taking the Common Prayer Booke, and turning to Priuate Baptisme, willed, that where the wordes were (in the Rubrike, the second Para­graph) They Baptize not Children. Novv it should be thus read; They cause not Chil­dren to be baptized; and againe, in the same paragraph, for those vvords, Then they mi­nister it, it should be, The Curate, or lawfull Minister present, shall doe it on this fashi­on. [Page 87] Concluding very grauely, that in this Conference, he aimed at three thinges principally, 1. The setting downe of wordes fit and conuenient, 2. Contriuing, howe thinges might be best done, without apparance of altera­tion. 3. Practise, that each man may doe his dutie in his place.

After this, his Maiestie fell into dis­course about the High Commission, wherin hee sayd, that hee vnderstood, howe the parties named therein, were too many & too meane; that, the matters they dealt in, were base, and such as Ordinaries at home in their Courts, might censure; that the braunches graunted out to the Bi­shops, in their seuerall Diocesses, were too frequent and large.To which my Lords Grace aunswered seuerally, 1. for the number, it was requisite, it should bee great, for otherwise, he must bee forced, as oft times now it fell out, to sit alone: because, that, albeit all the Lordes of the Priuy Councell were in, all the Bishoppes, many of the Iudges at law; & some of the [Page 88] Clearkes of the Councell; yet very few or none of thē, sitting with him at ordinary times, some of meaner place, as Deanes, and Doctors of Diuinity, and Law, must needes bee put in; whose attendance his Grace, might with more authoritie com­maund, and expect. 2. For the mat­ters handled therein, he sayd, that he often times had complained thereof, but sawe that it could not bee remedied; because, that the fault may be of that nature, as that the ordinary iurisdiction might censure it▪ but eftsoones it fals out, that the party delinquent is too great, and so the Ordi­nary dare not proceed against him; or so mightie in his state, or so wilfull in his contumacy, that hee will not obey the summons, or censure; and so the Ordina­ry is forced to craue helpe, at the high Cō ­mission. To the third, his Grace saide, that it concerned not him to make aunswere thereunto, for such Commis­sions haue beene graunted, against his will oftentimes, and without his know­ledge [Page 89] for the most part. My Lord Chan­celor therefore offered it to his Maiesties wisedome to consider, if such Commissi­ons should not be granted to any Bishop, but such as haue the largest Diocesses; which his Maiesty well approued, & ad­ded withall, and those Bishops who haue in their Diocesses, the most troublesome and refractary persons, either Papistes or Puritanes: but of this, as also of the other things found fault with therein, hee wil­led those to consult, to whom should bee appointed the reuiew of the Commis­sion. And here that point had ended, but that one of the Lordes, (I thinke verily rather vppon misinformation, then set purpose,) pleased to say, that the procee­ding thereby, was like vnto the Spanish Inquisition, wherein, mē were vrged to sub­scribe more then law required; that by the oath ex officio, they were inforced to accuse themselues; that they were examined vp­pon 20. or 24. Articles, vpon the sodaine, without deliberation, and for the most [Page 90] part against themselues: for the euidence thereof, a letter was shewed of an ancient Honourable Councelor, written to the Lord Archbishop, Anno 1584. of two ministers in Cambridgeshire, then, or there aboutes, examined vpon many Articles, and in the end depriued. The Lord Arch­bishop aunswered, 1. to the matter, that, in the manner of proceeding, and exami­ning, his Lordship was deceiued: for if any Article did touch the party any way, either for life, liberty, or scandall, he might refuse to aunswere, neither was hee vrged thereunto. 2. to the letter, being in a cause twenty yeares since determined, he could not aunswere the particulars, but if his aunswere to that letter were found out, he doubted not but as it did satisfie that Honourable Councelour, when hee liued, so it would also sufficiently cleare this complaint before his Maiestie.

My Lord of London, for the matter of Subscription, shewed his Highnes the 3. Articles, which the Church-men of Eng­land [Page 91] are to approue by subscribing, name­ly, the Kinges Supremacy; the Articles of Re­ligion, and the Booke of Common Prayer. Al which, it pleased his Maiestie himself, to read, (and after a little glaunce giuen, that the mention of the Oath ex officio, came in before his due time) he dilated, 1. how ne­cessary Subscription was, in euery well gouerned Church; that it was to bee vr­ged, for the keeping of Peace: for as laws, to preuent killing, did prouide, there should bee no quareling; so to preuent greater tumults in the Church, Subscripti­on was requisite. 2. because, the Bishop is to aunswere for euery minister, whome he admitteth into his Diocesse, it were fittest for him, to know the affe­ction of the party, before his admittance; the best way to know him, and to preuēt future factions, was; to vrge his Subscrip­tion at his first entrance: for, Turpius eiicitur, quā non admittitur hospes. 3, as Sub­scription, was a good meanes to discerne the affection of persons, vvhether quiet [Page 92] or turbulent,withal, it was the princi­pall way to auoid confusion: concluding, that if any, after things were well orde­red, would not be quiet, and shew his o­bedience, the Church were better with­out him, hee were worthy to be hanged. Praestat vt pereat vnus, quam vnitas.

Touching the Oath Ex officio, the L. Chancelor, and after him the L. Treasurer spake, both for the necessity and vse ther­of, in diuerse Courtes and cases. But his excellent Maiestie, preuenting that olde allegation, Nemo cogitur detegere suā turpi­tudinem, saide that the Ciuil proceedings, onely, punished factes; but in Courts Ec­clesiasticall, it vvas requisite that Fame, & Scandales should be looked vnto. That here was necessary, the Oath Compurgato­rie, & the Oath, ex officio too; & yet great moderation should be vsed, 1. in grauiori­bus criminibus: and 2. in such, whereof there is a publike fame: 3. in distingui­shing of publike Fame, either caused by the inordinate demeanor of the offendor, [Page 93] or raised by the vndiscreet proceeding in triall of the fact: as namely, in Scotland, where the lying with a wench (though done priuately; and knowne, or scarse suspected by two or three persons before) was made openly knowne to the King, to the Queene, to the Prince, to many hundreds in the Court, by bringing the parties to the stoole of Repentance, and yet, perhaps be, but a suspition, onely. And here his Maiestie so soundly described the Oath ex officio; First, for the ground thereof: Secondly, the Wisedome of the Lawe therein; Thirdly, the manner of procee­ding thereby and the necessary and profitable effect thereof; in such a compendious, but absolute order, that all the Lords and the rest of the present Auditors, stood a­mazed at it: the Archbishop of Canterbury said, that vndoubtedly his Maiestie spake by the speciall assistance of Gods spirite. The Bishop of London vpon his knee pro­tested, that his heart melted within him, (and so he doubted not, did the heartes [Page 94] of the whole Company) with ioy, and made hast to acknowledge vnto almigh­ty God, the singular mercy wee haue re­ceiued at his handes, in giuing vs such a King, as since Christ his time, the like, he thought hath not beene; whereunto the Lords, with one voice, did yeeld a verie affectionate acclamation. The Ciuili­ans present, confessed, that they could not in many houres warning, haue so iudici­ously, plainely, and accurately, in such a briefe described it.

After this, his Maiesty committed some weightie matters to be consulted of, by the Lords and Bishops, 1. for Excommuni­cation, in causes of lesse moment; the name or censure to bee altered. 2. for the High Commission, the qualitie of the per­sons to be named, and the nature of the causes to be handled therein, 3. for re­cusant Communicants; for there are 3. sortes, saith his Maiestie, of the Papistes, some 1. which come to Sermons, but not to seruice and prayer, 2. some which come [Page 95] to both them, but not to the Communi­on, 3. a number which abstaine from all. That inquirie might bee made, of al those, who were of the first, second or third ranke, concluding therein, that the weake were to be informed, the wilfull to bee punished.

Here my Lord Chancelor mentioned the writ, de Excōmunicato capiendo, which his Hon. saide, did most affright the Pa­pists, of al other punishmēts, because, by reasō of that, they were many wayes dis­abled in law: therfore, he would take or­der, if his Mtie so pleased, to sēd that writ out against them freely without charge; and if they were not executed, his Lord­ship would lay the Undershiriffes in pri­son; and to this the King assented.

The 4. thing to be consulted of, was, for the sending and appointing of Preachers into Ireland, whereof, saieth his Maiestie, I am but halfe a King, being Lord ouer their bodies, but their soules seduced by Popery, he much pittied, affirming, that [Page 96] where there is no true Religion, there can be no continued obedience: nor for Ire­land onely, but for some parts of Wales, and the Northerne borders, so once called, though now no borders: the men to bee sent, not to be factious, or scandalous, for weeds will be weedes, wheresoeuer they be, and are good for nothing, but to bee piked ouer the wall; therefore they should single out men of sinceritie, of knowledge, of courage.

The last was, for prouision of suffici­ent maintenance for the Clergy, and with­all, for the planting of a learned and pain­full minister in euery parish, as time shall serue.

To euery of those, his Maiestie willed, that seuerall Cōmissioners of his Coun­cell and bishops should be appointed, by the Lords, vpon the dissoluing the assem­bly present.

And thus hauing conferred of these points with his Bishops, and referred othersome of them, as you heard to spe­ciall [Page 93] Committies, his Maiestie willed, that D. Reyn and his associates, should bee called in to whom, he presently signifi­ed, what was done, and caused the altera­tions, or explications before named, to bee read vnto them. A little disputing there was, about the wordes in mariage, With my body I thee worship, & arguing no other thing to be ment, by the word Wor­ship, then that, which S. Paule willeth, 1. Cor. 7. 4. the man thereby acknowledging, that, hereby he worshippeth his wife, in that he appropriateth his body vnto her alone: nor any more, then that which S. Peter councelleth, 1. Peter. 3. 7. That the man should giue Honour to his Wife, as to the wea­ker vessell: yet, for their satisfaction, shold be put in, With my body I thee worship, & ho­nor, if it were thoght fit; & so his Mtie shut vp all with a most pithy exhortation to both sides for vnity perswading diligēce in each mans place, without violence on the one party, or disobedience on the o­ther, and willed them to deale with their [Page 98] friendes abroad to that purpose: for his Maiestie feared, and had some experience, that many of them were ticklish and hu­morous; nor that onely, but labourers to peruert others to their fancies; hee now saw, that the exceptions against the Com­munion Booke, were matters of weakenes; therfore, if the persons reluctant be discreet they will be wonne betimes, & by good perswasions; if vndiscreete better they were remoued: for many, by their facti­ous behauiour, were driuen to be Papists. Now then, of their fruites, he shall iudge them; Obedience and Humilitie being markes of honest and good men. Those he expected of them, and by their exam­ple and perswasion of all their sorte a­broade; for, if hereafter, thinges being thus well ordered, they should be vnqui­et, neither his Maiestie, nor the state had any cause to thinke well of them. To which, they all gaue their vnanimous as­sent, taking exception against nothing that was saide or done, but promised to [Page 99] performe all dutie to the Bishoppes, as their Reuerend fathers, and to ioyne with them against the common aduersaries, & for the quiet of the Church.

Onely, M. Chatterton of Emanuel Col­ledge, kneeling, requested that the wea­ring of the Surplis, and the vse of the Crosse in Baptisme, might not be vrged vpō some honest, godly, and painefull ministers in some partes of Lancashire; who feared, that if they should be forced vnto them, many, whome they had wonne to the Gospell, would slide backe, and reuolte vnto Popery againe, and particularly, in­stanced the Vicar of Ratesdale: (hee coulde not haue light vppon a worse;) for not many years before, he was proued before my Lord Archbishop, as his Grace there testified, and my L. Chancelor, by his vn­seemely and vnreuerent vsage of the Eu­charist, dealing the bread out of a Basket, euery man putting in his hand, & taking out a peece, to haue made many loath the holy Communion, and wholy refuse to [Page 100] come to Church, his Maiesty aunswe­red, that it was not his purpose, and hee durst answere for the Bishops, that it was not their intent, presently, and out of hād to inforce those things, without father­ly admonitions, conferences, and perswa­sions premised; but wished, that it should be examined if those men by their paines and preaching had conuerted a­ny from Popery, and were, withall, men quiet of disposition, honest of life, and di­ligent in their calling; if so, letters should be written to the Bishoppe of Chester, (of whome his Maiestie gaue a very good te­stimony) to that purpose: if not, but that they were of a turbulent and opposite spirite, both they and others of that vn­quiet humor should presently be enforced to a conformity, and so, for that point, it was concluded, that my Lord Archbi­shop, should write to the Bishop of Chester, his letters for that matter.

My Lord of London replyeth, that if this were graunted, the copy of these letters [Page 101] (especially, if his Maiestie had writtē, as at first it was purposed) would flye ouer al England, and then other, for their con­fines, would make the same request, and so no fruite should follow of this Confe­rence, but thinges would bee worse then they were before. Therefore, he hum­bly desired his Maiesty, that a time shoulde bee limited, vvithin vvhich compasse, they should conforme themselues. To vvhich, his Maiestie, readily assented, & willed, that the Bishoppe of the Diocesse, should set them dovvne the time, and in meane while conferre vvith them, and if they vvould not yeeld, vvhatsoeuer they vvere, to remoue them, after their time ex­pired.

No sooner was that motion ended, but downe fals M. Knewstubs, and hee re­questes the like fauour of forbearance, for some honest Ministers in Suffolke, telling the K. it vvould make much against their Credites in the Country, to be now forced to the Surplis, and the Crosse in Baptisme. [Page 102] My Lordes Grace was aunswering; Nay, saith his Maiestie, let me alone with him. Sir, saith the King, you shew your selfe, an vncharitable man, wee haue here taken paines, and in the end haue concluded of an vnity and vniformitie, and, you for­sooth, must preferre the Credites of a few priuate men, before the generall peace of the Church; this is iust the Scottish argument, for when any thing was there concluded, which disliked some humors, the onely reason, why they would not obey, was, it stoode not with their credits, to yeeld, hauing so long beene of the cō ­trary opinion; I vvill none of that, saith the King, and therefore, eyther let them cōform thēselues, & that shortly, or they shall heare of it. My Lord Cecill put his Maiestie in mind, of a word, his Highnes had vsed the day before, namely, of Am­buling Communions, saying, that the inde­cency thereof, vvas very offensiue, & had driuen many from the Church: & here M. Chatterton vvas told of sitting Commu­nions [Page 103] in Emanuel Colledge; vvhich, hee saide, vvas so, by reason of the seates, so placed as they be; yet, that they had some kneeling also.

Finally, they ioyntly promised, to bee quiet and obedient, now they knew it to be the Kinges mind, to haue it so. His Maiesties gracious conclusion was so piercing, as that it fetched teares, from some, on both sides. My Lord of London ended all, in the name of the vvhole com­pany, with a Thankesgiuing vnto God for his Maiestie, and a prayer for the health and prosperity of his Highnes, our graci­ous Queene, the yong Prince, and al their Royall Issue.

His Maiestie departed into the inner Chamber, all the Lordes presently went to the Councell Chamber, to appoint Commissioners, for the seuerall matters before referred.


The Preface.

MAny Copies were sent me, wherof some were so shame­lesly vntrue, and I assure you, so obscaene, that I think his Maiestie would haue bene as much offended with me for Printing, as with the Authors for dispearsing them: I haue chosen three of the best, and cleanliest, which doe here▪ vnder follow.

I giue no censure, neither know I the Dispearsers, let the Reader conferre and iudge. Rectum est iudex sui, & obliqui.

The first Copie. Ianuary 15. 1603.

SIr, I cannot conceale from you, the good successe, which it hath pleased God to sende vs, by the Conference, which his Maiestie had with the Bishops at the court. There appeared none but the Bi­shops, which were with the King aboue three houres: Can. Lon. Wint. fell downe on their knees, and desired, that all things might re­maine, least the Papists should thinke we haue bene in an error. The King replied, that in 42. yeares corruptions might creep in. He spake of cōfirmation, priuate Baptisme, the Crosse, dumbe Ministerie, non residence, the Courtes; which he promised to amēd: especially he spake bitterly against priuate Baptisme; saying hee had as liue an Ape, as a woman should [Page] Baptise his childe, and against Courtes, which hee saide he would put downe. The Lo. chiefe Iustice, and the Lo. Cecil, against Excommunications by Lay­men. Maister Deane of the Chappell, speaking something to the King in his eare, the Bishop of London, insolently said vnto him, Doctor Mountague Other Co­pies haue the Bishop of Winche­ster. speake out, that we may heare you, and seeke not to crosse vs. At their departure, they said, that if the King should vse the Ministers in such sort as they were vsed, they would be too insolent. The King said they were his subiectes, and if hee would not heare them, then they had iust cause to complaine. The Bishops brought foorth many Popish argu­ments, which the King very ernestly answered, and learnedly, more then tenne times calling them Po­pish arguments, and saide by those reasons, they might prooue Popery. The Bishop of Winchester saide, that if he tooke away priuate Baptisme, he o­uerthrew all antiquitie. The Bishop of Peter­brough brought a foolish argument, with much dis­grace to himselfe. The Bishops haue taken Wed­nesday to consider of the Kings speech. The Mini­sters came to the King on Munday at nine of the clocke. Honest men about the Court, are comfor­ted. Conformitans hang down their heads, and the Bishops men curse the Puritanes. sic explicit. 1. dies.

Another Copie.

I Haue sent you the declaration of the Conference, which was in this manner: The firste day the Bishoppes mette before his Maiestie: Bishops of Canterburie, London, and Winchester, making earnest sute, that all things might stand as they did, least the Papists should take offence, who might say, we would per­swade them to come to a Church hauing errors in it: and the Puritans will say, they haue bin persecu­ted long: The King answered, that the best state would gather corruptions, and that it was no argu­ment for them, to say, they would not be cured of the pox, because they had had it 30. yeares: he con­cluded against absolution, confirmation, priuate Bap­tisme, the dumbe and scandulous Ministers: pluralities, the Courtes and the authoritie of Bishoppes by the high Commissisners, &c. The second day the Ministers were conuented before the King, who answered fearefully & modestly: the Bishop of Lon. behaued himselfe insolently, saying, these are Cartwrightes Schollers Scismatikes, breakers of your Maiesties lawes; you may know thē by their Turkie gownes, and silke Turky Grogorum: The third day they met all: where the King spake much to vnitie, that they might ioyne against the Papists: All the three dayes the King behaued himselfe admirable to the beholders: graunting to the Ministers their ear­nest request, that the Ceremonies of the Crosse in Baptisme, and the Surplises, reuerent for antiqui­tie, should not be vrged vpon the consciences of the [Page] Ministers, so that they were peaceable mē, and that they should haue time to consider of them; many hundreds being resolued rather to haue lost their places, then to haue yeelded to those superstitions, against which they had Preached. The last day, the Bishop of Cant. was intreated, to be a meanes that the ceremonies might not be pressed: but he answe­red they had bene vrged as necessary, and should be so still. But it pleased God to moue his Maiestie to a more peaceable course: the Bishop of Peter-borow came in with his argument about Baptisme, which the King made voide to his great reproach: The King saide many times that the Bishoppes reasons were popish, and that they might establish Poperie by them: it is thought that the King will be shortly in Huntingtonshire. The Lord Chancellor, the Lord Cecil, the Lord chiefe Iustice, and the Atturnie Generall, must set downe some course for the high Commis­sion, and the Spirituall Courts.

A third Copie. Some of the speeches that are bruited, vpon Maister Doctor Reynoldes returne to Oxen. concerning the late Conference be­fore his Maiestie.

  • 1 THat the Kinges Maiestie did gratifie Maister Doctor Rey­noldes in euery thing which he proposed: or that Doctor Rey­noldes obtained, and preuai­led in euerie thing he did de­sire.
  • 2 That if anie man reporte the contrarie, hee doth lye: or that they should giue him the lye, from Maister Doctor Reynoldes.
  • 3 That these thinges now obtained by the re­formers, were but the beginning of reformation: the greater matters were yet to come.
  • 4 That my Lord of Winton stoode mute: and said little or nothing.
  • 5 That my Lord of London called Doctor Rey­noldes Schismatick indeede: (he thankes him for it) but otherwise said little to purpose.
  • 6 That the Kings Maiestie vsed the Bishops with very hard words: but imbraced maister Doc­tor Reynolds, and vsed most kind speeches to him.
  • 7 That my Lo. of Canterbury or my Lo. of Lon­don, falling on his knees, besought his Maiestie to take their cause into his owne handes, and to make some good end of it: such as might stand with their credite.

This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal. The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission.