He [sic] begynneth an interlocucyon, with an argument, betwyxt man and woman & whiche of them could proue to be most excelle[n]t. — Debat de l'homme et de la femme. English

He [sic] begynneth an interlocucyon, with an argument, betwyxt man and woman & whiche of them could proue to be most excelle[n]t. — Debat de l'homme et de la femme. English

Table of contents

Title page

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¶He begynneth an interlocucyon / with an argument / betwyxt man and woman / & whiche of them could proue to be most excellēt.

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WHen Phebꝰ reluysāt / most ardēt was & shene

In the hote sommer season / for my solace

Vnder the vmbre of a tre / bothe fayre & grene

I lay downe to rest me / where in this case.

¶As after ye shall here / a stryfe there began

Whiche longe dyd endure / with great argument

Bytwyxte the woman / and also the man

Whiche of them coulde proue / to be moost excellent.

The man.

¶The fyrst whiche I herde: was the mā that sayde

Adam our forfather / by womans shrewde councell

To ete of an apple / was pyteously betrayde

Well happy is he / that with you dothe not mell.

The woman.

¶Ihesu of a mayden / and vyrgyn his mother

Was incarnated / to redeme that man had loste

Set thou this one / now agaynst the other

And woman is more excellent / in euery coste.

The man.

¶No women in to aungels / neuer was transformed

But women in to deuyls / full ofte hath ben fygurate

For theyr pryde in hell / cruelly to be burned

Vnhappy is he / that hath one to his make.

The woman.

¶Many aungels to women / haue ben transported

More than to men / for theyr chastyte

Fyrst our dere lady / thaungell exorted

Sayenge the son of god / in her conceyued shold be.

The man.

¶Ioseph by woman / was put in pryson

And Vrye was slayne / by treason cruell

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Dauyd an adulterer / with woman was become

Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.

The woman.

Mankynde to delyuer / out of this worldly payne

And brynge hym to the ioye / of the celestyall place

God in his mother / toke nature humayne

Who dysprayseth women / god sende hym no grace.

The man.

For woman was slayne / the worthy prynce Amon

The loue of them causeth moche dyspleasure

By women was dysceyued / the sage Salomon

Whiche by the meane of them / false ydols dyd adoure

The woman.

That woman / is moost replete with grace

By good reason / I shall proue playne

For god in woman / fyrst toke his place

Whan into this worlde / he came certayne.

The man.

Vyrgyll the sage clerke / of great intellygence

Betrayed was by woman / as wryten ye may fynde

Trustynge in her grace / in euery mannes presence

Was tyed at a wyndowe / tyll men dyd hym vnbynde

The woman.

God to vs by woman / paradyse hath restored

That before was loste / by our great neglygence

And aboue all sayntes / hyghly hath honored

Mary his mother / woman of moost excellence.

The man.

Townes haue be destroyed / and cytes many one

Dyuers men for women / be dampned depe in hell

More ioyfull vnto man / than woman hath be none

Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.

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The woman.

¶By ye meane of Hester / the iudgemēt was respyted

Of Assuerus her husband / for the Iewes all

Whiche sholde haue dyed / had nat he delyted

In her hye beautye / and wordes peticyonall.

The man.

¶Pryam / Paris and Deiphebus

Fyrst by thoccasyon / of women was slayne

Also Troylus / Hector and Helenus

And all Troye / hath ben confounded playne.

The woman.

¶Iudyth. C. M. men and mo

Made for to flye / and yelde in confusyon

After that Holefernus heed / she had cut in two

Whiche wolde haue dystroyed all the regyon.

The man.

¶Women theyr face / and foreheed doth paynt

For to deceyue / both yonge and olde

The stronge Sampson / Dalyda dyd attaynt

And hym betrayed / his heed whē she had polde.

The woman.

¶Woman is honored / in euery place

For quene of erth / and of heuen hye

Whiche is petycioner / for mannes trespace

To good on theyr soules to haue mercye.

The man.

Some women can flatter / and moost can lye

To optayne mannes loue / they can fayne well

They wyll neuer leue it / vntyll they dye

Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.

The woman.

¶Woman is called / treasure of grace

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In heuen our lady / it is full suer

For she for mannes soule / doth so purchase

That thousandes / she saued by her prayer.

The man.

¶Some that hath be taken / for very sage

By womans loue / dyd so hym indeuer

That for it he solde / all his herytage

And after hath he dyed / a myserable begger.

The woman.

¶Many hath offyces / and good wages

By women to lyue / ryght prosperately

Benefyces / and auauntages

To mayntayne men / accordyngly.

The man.

¶When a yonge pegeon / a woman hath gotyn

She wyll make hym / at length as stronge as a crane

For surely / she wyll neuer forsake hym

Tyll that his croper bone wax very lame

The woman.

¶Then loke a cawdell / you do gyt

And soone ye loke you / a better norce

For I harde say / god gaue man wyt

To knowe the better / from the worse.

The man

¶Women wyll speke / and contrary say

They wyll nat shame / a lye to tell

To scolde and brawle / is all theyr play

Well happy is he / that with them doth not mell.

The woman.

¶The commynge / of our lorde Ihesu

Many deuout woman / dyd prophecye

Sybellys they were / that it best knewe

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For to dysprayse women / ye do now vnwyslye.

The man.

¶One must them gyue / that they desyre

To bete or correcte them / they waxen worse

They neuer wyll stynt / for to requyre

As longe as a peny / is in ones purse.

The woman.

¶When all thappostles / from our lorde flyed

Women tyll his deth / styll dyd hym ensue

Neuer woman / our lorde denyed

As Peter dyd / but euer was true.

The man.

¶When ye of ony man / knowe the intencyon

Whiche coulde be secrete / ye publysshe it by and by

Vnto your gosseppys / ye make therof mencyon

As soone as ye togyther byb / charryng lyke a pye.

The woman.

¶Chryste after his deth / for our consolacyon

Fyrst shewed / vnto woman personally

To Mary magdaleyn / after his resurreccyon

Whiche for his deth / be wayled greuously.

The man.

¶A Wyfe of her husbande / Wyll haue the audyence

As chyef maystres / her tale to tell

She wyll crye & wepe / except she haue the p̄emynēce

Wyll happy is he / that with them doth not mell.

¶The woman.

¶That a man shold a woman / or his wyfe byleue

By Abraham / is sygnyfyed playne

For god vnto Sara / fyrst knowlege dyd gyue

That a chyld shold be procreat: bytwyxt thē twayne

The man.

¶Many cauteloustrastes / now women they haue

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To make them proper / and coynte to seme

For proude apparell / euer styll they craue

Yet be they moost stynkynge / and fylthy within.

The woman.

¶Of good women / haue be founde many one

Whiche haue ben chast / and holy vyrgyns pure

And that out of goddes lawes / neuer hath gone

Wherfore in heuen / now sayntys be they sure.

The man.

¶But now of euyll / there be so many

Theyr kynde encreaseth / styll euery day

From euyl in to worse / so fast they multyplye

That wolde the deuyll: had one to cary thother away

The woman.

One vyrgyn another for goddis loue hath martyred

By compulsyon of man / as scrypture hath exprest

That in a day .xi. thousand dyed

Wherfore to dysprayse women / ye do not best.

The man.

¶Consyderyng the euyll / which of women haue com

How false they be / how cursed and cruell

One ought to flye them / and from them to ronne

For well happy is he / that with them doth not mell

The woman.

¶All the nobles / of cyme passed

And all the sayntes / of paradyse

Fyrst all from women / they haue proceded

For to dysprayse women / in fayth ye be not wyse.

The man.

¶Do weye your blame / and laude in balaunce

To se of them / whiche twayne weye moste

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And when that ye se / there the dyfferaunce

I trowe of your laude / ye wyll make small boste.

The woman.

¶For all the blames / and offence

That agaynst vs women / ye can laye

Consyder the bounte / of our ladyes excellence

And all our euylles / her goodnes dothe delaye.

La femme replique.

¶Now the conclusyon / the woman thus began

These infamous men / with all theyr polecy

All noble women / wolde gladly defame

Were not our goodnes / excedynge theyr glory.

¶For Caym kylled Abell / his gentyll brother

And Iudas / Ruben his father dyd slay

Nero made open / his owne mother

To se the place / where that he lay

¶The men of Iury / made god to dye

Iudas scaryot hym solde / by false treason

And after hym selfe hanged / this is no lye

Wherfore styll in payne / his soule it doth won.

¶Chrystes Apostles / dyd hym denye

Men dyd hym crucefye / by great vyolence

And tyrans enraged / dyspyte fullye

Ten thousande / slewe of Innocence.

¶Also in a day / they dyd confounde

A .xi. thousande vyrgyns / vnto theyr deth

Some they heedyd / and some they drownde

Some they smolthered / and stopped theyr breth.

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¶Men they had / peruerse courage

As ye may se / now euydently

To do vnto sayntes / suche oultrage

Without offence / and no cause why.

¶Men make warres / and dyscencyons

In euery place / as ye may se

Theftes / mordres / and traysons

Replete with all / iniquyte.

¶More men / there be in pryson

In chaynes bounde / for theyr offence

More women / come vnto sermon

To lerne goddys lawes / with dylygence.

¶Of euery man / in all degre

Mother and norces / women hath ben

Of all that are / and euer shalbe

Women haue fyrst thautorite clen.

¶Wherfore of vs / ye ought say well

For to myssay / ye can not wyn

And ye that hath no grace / goodnes to tell

To holde his peace / is best for hym.

¶Do ye say / of vs the best

Syns we ye kept / When ye were small

For of lytell medlynge / cometh moche rest

And god amende / the worst of vs all.

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¶The auctor.

¶Of this argument / the hole entent

I marked it / effectually

And after I had herde / them at this discent

I presed towardes them / incontynently

But when they sawe me / aproche them to

Lest I wolde repreue / theyr argument

Full fast they fledde / then bothe me fro

That I ne wyst / whyther they went

Wherfore now to iudge / whiche is moost excellent

I admyt it / vnto this reders prudence

Whyther to man or woman / is more conuenyent

The laude to be gyuen / and wordly magnyfycence.

¶Finis.

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wynkyn de worde

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Information about this book

Title statement

He [sic] begynneth an interlocucyon, with an argument, betwyxt man and woman & whiche of them could proue to be most excelle[n]t.Debat de l'homme et de la femme. English

Alexis, Guillaume, d. 1468?

Edition statement

1525

Publication

Publisher

Text Creation Partnership,

Place of publication

Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) :

Date

2006-06 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1).

ID [DLPS]

A04050

ID [STC]

STC 14109

ID [STC]

ESTC S103699

ID [EEBO-CITATION]

99839445

ID [PROQUEST]

99839445

ID [VID]

3866

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Series

Early English books online.

Notes

(EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A04050)

Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3866)

Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 54:11)

Source

— He [sic] begynneth an interlocucyon, with an argument, betwyxt man and woman & whiche of them could proue to be most excelle[n]t., Debat de l'homme et de la femme. English, Alexis, Guillaume, d. 1468?.

Extent

[12] p.

W. de Worde,. [London :: 1525?]. (Signatures: A⁶.) (Place of publication and publication date from STC; printer's name from colophon.) (Woodcut illustration on title page.) (In verse.) (Printer's device (McKerrow 19) on verso of A6, final leaf.) (Translated from "Le debat de l'ōme et de la fēme" by Guillaume Alexis .--STC.) (Print faded and show-through.) (Reproduction of the original in the British Library.)

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