THe holy Prophet Esay, Esay. 62▪ 1. foreseeing the miserable captiuitie, which the Iews (for their transgressions) were to su­staine vnder the kinges of Babell: did thinke it necessary, to prepare their heartes to patience, by assuring them, that the Lord (in his due time) would worke their ioyfull and happy deliuerance. To the which purpose (amongst many other most notable perswasions, & prophecies) he vseth these wordes: for Syons sake I will not hold my peace, and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest, vntill the righteousnes therof breake forth as the light, and saluation therof as a burning lampe:Caluin vpon Esay. that is, donec erigam piorum animos spe futu­rae salutis, &c: vntill I may confirme the minds of the godly (saith Caluin) with the hope of their restitution againe: so as they may vnderstand, and be fully perswaded, that God will be the deliuerer of his Church.

The false Prophet H.N. the moste illuminated father of the family of loue, counterfaiting the imitation of the Pro­phet of God in this place: doth take vppon him to tell the world, of a farre greater captiuitie, not of 70. yeares, but of more then a thousand and fiue hundred yeares: that is, euer since the Apostles times. Wherein (saith he) darkenes of er­ror [Page 2] hath ouershadowed the earth: Euang Regni lumen vitae incognitum fa­ctum est, the light of life hath been made vnknowen: and the trueth hath been hid, as vnder the maske of Popery, vntill this day of loue. He turneth the whole doctrine of our saluation, into a vaine mysterie, & an allegoricall conceit of his own: leauing the Church no mediator at all, besides himselfe. He hath framed a platforme, or new kingdome and gospell of his owne inuention: bearing this title, Euangelium regni dei: the gospell of the kingdome of God. H.N. 1 Exhortation, pag. 33 & 43. Into this kingdome, as Vicegerentes he hath brought: for our ministers, his seni­ores sanctae intelligentiae, Elders of the holy vnderstanding: pa­tres familiae Christi, fathers of the family of Christ, and for our Archbishops and Bishops, his Primates, or principall Elders, his seniores parentes, Elder fathers, and I know not how many illuminated and deified gouernours. And perseuering in these and in many other such like very grosse & fond ima­ginations: he lewdly presumeth, to apply the said place of the Prophet, to himselfe, and his owne conceites, for the better animating of his followers to sticke fast vnto him: saying:Euang Regni. O Syon, tua causa non silebo, &c: O Syon for thy sake, I will not hold my peace, and for Ierusalems sake I will not rest: vn­till the righteousnes thereof breake forth as the light, & saluation thereof as a burning lampe: that is in effect: vntill the holy go­uernment of the family of loue, bee established vppon the earth.

T.C. a man I confesse, not to be sorted with H.N. (were it not vpon this occasion) wil needs take vpō him likewise, the person of the Prophet: and to aduertise vs of a wonder­full seruitude, that hath continued in the Church of God, (in effect, with H.N.) from the apostles times also, & which yet remaineth (as he saith) in the church of England. From the which seruitude, he reckoneth, that it shall neuer be de­liuered, [Page 3] vntill it submit it selfe, to be newly reformed again, by the aduise of his deepe vnderstanding (assisted with those that diligently wait vpon his illuminated deuises) af­ter the maner of Geneua. To winne himselfe therefore the better credite, for bringing this to passe: hee laieth about him, and would haue al things turned topsie turuie (as they say) euen the vpside downe. Our ministery, their callings, our seruice, our sacraments, and all we haue, is out of ioint: Councels, fathers, histories, they are but dishcloutes with him: he shaketh them off, as it were with a shrugge: they are indeed (as after it shal appeare) no body in his handes: but he flingeth them here and there at his pleasure.

He in like sorte with the assistance of his partakers, hath framed after the fashion of Geneua, a platforme and newe kingdome, or rather an infinite number of litle petite king­domes: but yet euery one of them of an absolute power: aswell ouer Lordes, Earles, Dukes, Princes, Kinges and Kingdomes, as ouer the meanest whosoeuer vnder them. This kingdome he would impose vpon this land. Wherein for our Archbishops, Bishops, ministers, &c: hee placeth his graund Elders, (whome he tearmeth pastors): his se­cond sort of Elders, (whome he tearmeth Doctors): his third sorte of Elders, (whome he tearmeth Gouernors) ioy­ning vnto them Deacons, to carry their purses, and widdows to wash their feete, where neede shall require. And with this deuise, he is so possessed, that hee thinketh all them be­witched, and aduersaries to the trueth, that do impugne it. He supposeth the present estate of the Church of England, (wanting that Allobrogicall deuise, though reformed as it is,) to be as yet, vnder the yoake of a wicked and vnlawfull gouernment, as it were, vnder that Iewish captiuitie of the Church, vnder the Babilonians: And therefore the better [Page 4] to incourage such factious persons, as do gape for a change, out of Gods blessing into the warme sunne: hee taketh vp­on him to be their Prophet, and (as it were another Esay) sayth: For Syons sake I will not hold my peace, and for Hierusa­lems sake I will not rest, vntill the righteousnesse thereof breake forth as the light, and saluation thereof as a burning lampe: that is in effect: vntill the said glorious kingdome of this Gene­uian Eldership, be enthronized in this land, and do carrie the scepter ouer euery parish in England.

There is also another sorte of Schismatickes amongest vs:The Barro­ [...]ists. who although they condemne T.C. for a false Pro­phet, and all his platforme, as a meere forgerie: yet doe they ioyne with him in slaundering, not onely of our church, most hainously: but furthermore also, of all the rest of the Churches in Christendome: as hauing conspired together euer since the Apostles times, to shut Christ out of his owne kingdome, and to runne headlong into a vo­luntary bondage of greater blindnesse, then was euer in E­gipt. In respect of the which our miserable estate (forsooth) in England: grounding themselues vpon Cartwrightes pro­positions, (as they professe): vz: that seeing our Church: our gouernement: our ministerie: our seruice: our Sa­cramentes, are thus and thus, as he writeth of them: there­fore they will not pray with vs: they will not communicate with vs: they will not submit themselues to our Church, or to the gouernment of it: they will not baptise their chil­dren with vs: they will haue nothing to doe with vs: but in effect, as though we were prophane persons, Ethnickes, or publicanes, do abandon our societies.

And these men come in, with another, a far more royall kingdome then Cartwrig hts. But it consisteth partly of his sayde officers, and partly of some other of their owne: [Page 5] that is, of all the people: whome they greatly magnifie, not seeing their owne confusion. Which forme, or de­uise, they haue in suche admiration, for their conceaued purity of it: as that all the parishes in England (they say) must be first disparished, and all the people of the land first sanctified, and made a chosen people vnto the Lord, be­fore the same may be planted amongst vs. And therefore one of them, (whether Barrow, Greenwood, Harrison, Glouer, or which of their schollers, I doe not nowe remember) but one of them I am assured; doth so greatly dislike the thraldome (in his conceit) of the Church of England, at this day: and so thirsteth to drinke the waters, which they haue drawn out of their own cisternes: that as, rauished in spirit, and for the comfort of his companions, he protesteth that for Syons sake, hee will not hold his peace, nor for Ierusalems sake, take any rest, vntill the righteousnesse therof, breake forth as the light, and saluatiō therof as a burning lampe: that is (in effect): vntill all the parishes in England bee purified after their fashion; & then an Eldership, (abridged by a popular authoritie) bee placed in them.

But of all the cryers, that I haue read of: hee shall weare the garland for crying,Petition di­rected to her Maiestie. that presumed of late to printe a petition, directed to her Maiestie: but published and spread abroad amongst her subiectes, for what other pur­pose I know not, then to withdrawe them from their due­tiful allegiaunce, & liking of her gouernment: when there­by they should be informed, sufficiently (as he deemed) of such notorious abuses, as he falsly pretendeth: and that not­withstanding, her highnesse being acquainted with them, yet she cared not for the reformation of them. They say the man hath beene of a crased iudgement: and I easiely belieue it: partly for that he hath so giddily and so vntrue­ly [Page 6] sought to disgrace, asmuch as in him lieth, the present gouernement of the Church: and partly in respect of his desperate boldnesse, that after so many rebukes, giuen to such franticke fellowes in the like cases: he durst presume againe, to offer to the worlde, such a fardell of malitious collections, and vntruthes; and yet thinke them fitte mat­ters to be dedicated to her Maiestie. But the thinge that most astonisheth me, is this: in that he saith thus; I do not now write eyther to pull downe Bishoprickes, or erect presbyteries. With whome the truth is, I will not determine. For I knowe not &c. And yet he taketh the said sentence out of Esay (some­what turkised) for his poesie aswell as the rest. And to the condemnation of the present gouernment, and iustificatiō of the disturbers of it (if he vnderstand himselfe) he plain­ly professeth: that although he knoweth not which part hath the truth: yet for Syons sake he will not cease, nor for Ieru­salems sake hold his tounge: till he hath aduanced his owne conceite, and depraued that which hee knoweth not, as­much as possibly he is able.

And thus you see, what loue on all sides is pretended to Syon: and how the prophets wordes are wrested, by euery one of them, to serue their owne turnes. But they who haue iudgement, will not be much moued with such pre­tences. It hath beene an ancient practise of the aduersaries of the Church of God, then especially to be complotting of some mischiefe,Esra. 4. both against Syon and Ierusalem: when in outward shew, they haue pretended most of all, to bee desirous to repayre them, and to seeke their glory. There are some men spoken of in the scriptures,Psal. 12. who vaunt: that because their tongues are their owne, they will speake what they list. To whom also these men that professe, they will not holde their peace, may be more fitly compared, [Page 7] then with the holy prophet Esay. Or I doubt it, that if a man shoulde iudge of many of them by the course which they haue taken: or if they of themselues would resorte indeede to their owne coulours: they might soone ap­peare to be so far from bearing any true affection to Syon, as that we should rather finde them in the tentes of the E­domites,Psal. 138. cryinge in their heartes against the good estate of the Church of Christ, now in England: as the Edomites did in the day of Ierusalem: Downe with it, downe with it, euen to the ground. But because T.C. and his followers (for with the rest I will not further meddle) haue such a con­ceite: as that the light and saluation of Ierusalem, cannot well breake foorth, vntill his pretended Eldership may bee generally admitted of in England: I will leaue their harts to God, and deliuer vnto you historically, how this plat­forme was deuised, and grew to bee so much in request: which will be the contentes of the two next chapters fol­lowing.

THe world now a dayes, is set all vpon liberty. E­uery man allmost is of their humour, which thought scorne, Numb. 16. that any should bee lifted vp a­boue the congregation. The cantoninge of kingdomes, is in many mens mouthes. You shall finde it, a great mat­ter amongst those that haue beene trauailers; and it is their vsuall discourse, vz. what a notable thinge it is to liue in Venice. There, (forsooth) euery gentleman liueth with as great libertie as the Duke himselfe. They haue noe [Page 8] Earles, no Barons, no Noblemen; of whome their Gentle­men should stand in awe. What is a Nobleman (say these discoursers) but a gentleman▪ And I am as good a gentle­man as the best of them. Surely it is very well spoken: and like a gentleman. But whilst you braue so vppon noble­men: doe you know what you doe▪ Be there not some in the world (and yet none Anabaptistes) that will say: what is a gentleman, but a man▪ And am not I in behauiour as gentle as he▪ and for my manhood, as good a man as he▪

A certaine writer for reformation; hauing (as it seemeth) a great dislike of Bishops:Treatise of obedience. compareth the Bishops Rochet to a white smocke, and the Bishop himselfe, to a porter of the Stillyard. This will not dislike some. But reade (I pray you) with patience, what he also writeth of noblemen and gentlemen: for that which he saith, toucheth them both alike. Whereof came (saith he) this diuision of such personages from others: Ibid. pa. 114. seeing all men came of one man, and one woman▪ was it for their lusty hawking and hunting▪ for their nimble di­cing, and cunning carding? for their singing and dauncing? for their open bragging and swearing? for their false flyring and flattering? for their subtill pilling and stealing? for their cruell polling and pilling &c. No, no: there was no such thing. You would then be glad (I am sure) to know what thing it was. Indeed the same author doth not conceale it. In effecte it is (though it be deliuered in better wordes) vz. that their rebellion and treason against their gouernors, procured them that prerogatiue with the people. Because (saith he) they reuenged and deliuered the oppressed people out of the handes of their gouernours, Ibid. who abused their authoritie, and wickedly, cruelly, and tir annously ruled ouer them; the people of a gratefull and thankefull minde, gaue them that estimation and honor. We liue in a worlde (you know) that crieth out: the firste [Page 9] institution, the first institution: euery thing must be brought to the first institution. The wordes be good, if they be well applied.Iohn Wall, o [...] Ball in the time of Iacke Cades rebel­lion, in Rich. 2. daies. But something was amisse in the Priestes applica­tion of his text, being such a like saying, amongest a multi­tude of rebelles: vz: When Adam digged, and Eue spanne, who was then the Gentleman. What is a nobleman, or a gen­tleman now (say many in the world of the said Priestes hu­mour, when noblemen and gentlemen will not satisfie their desires) but an vsurper of such honour, as the people bestowed vpon their auncestors at the first, for defending of them against their gouernours▪ which honour or pre­rogatiue their children enioying after them by the negli­gence or conniuencie (forsooth) of the people: hath growen into a tyrannicall superioritie: Whereby they lift themselues aboue the rest of the childrē of God, to whom indeede the inheritaunce of the world doth equally apper­taine; by the same right, that all true Christians are fellow heires together of the kingdome of heauen. Call they this the bringing of thinges to the first institution▪ Surely such and the like conceits do tend to nothing, but to bloud and confusion.

The course which was taken in Schwitzerland, and o­ther places in high Almayne (where the people made ha­uocke both of their noblemen, and gentlemen) shall ne­uer (whilest I liue) get my approbation: Let all the Consi­storians in Christendome commend it neuer so much, and that vnder pretence of the doctrine of true obedience. Be it that their gouernours, their noblemen, and their gentle­men were become tyrantes: yet (as Melancthon truely saith of that matter): Chroni. par. vlt. excessit medicina modum: the medi­cine passed measure. He might haue said in mine opinion, excessit medicina malum: the medicine was worse then the [Page 10] disease. But I will not meddle with such kinde of free­dome. If the Emperours of Germanie doe thinke it a mat­ter for the glory, and for the strength of their Empire, to haue it (as it were) distributed into so many free Citties, so many popular states, and little petty soueraignties: it were a saucie part for me (as I take it) to busie my selfe with it. Howbeit that any such doctrine or examples, should be published, or once dreamed of, in such a kingdome as this is: there is no pretence of religion, no shewe of reformati­on, no platforme of Discipline, although it shoulde come from Geneua, that can sufficiently warrant it. And yet wee finde it to be true by our owne experience in moste places, that such kinde of pretences can do very much: especially if some of Geneua, shall but giue them their credite and good countenance vnto it.

One Franciscus Boniuardus, at maister Caluins request, did write a short description of the citie of Geneua:Munster. where­in he affirmeth that about the yeare 1124. the Bishop of Ge­neua was the Prince of it: and that after some contention with one Aymo de imperio ciuitatis, for the soueraintie of the Ci­tie: the said Bishop going to the Emperour Fredericke the first: obtinuit vt ille solus Geneuae principatum obtineret Regali iure: obtained that hee alone might enioy the principalitie of Geneua, by a kingly interest, that he should be free from all tributes, and be subiect in temporall causes, but onely to the Emperour. Not much disagreeing from this, is that which Simlerus wri­teth.Simlerus de repub. Helu. Episcopatus huius vrbis, &c. The Bishopricke of this Citie (meaning Geneua) had most large priuileges, and immunities: but notwithstanding the Citizens did carefully conserue the pro­per liberties, and perpetuall conditions with their Bishops, that they had receaued from their forefathers. It appeareth further­more by the said Boniuardus, that notwithstanding the Bi­shops [Page 11] right mentioned, for the principalitie of that Cittie:Munster. yet there was still some contention about it, betwixt the Bishops and the Earles, and Dukes of Sauoy: euen (sayth hee) vsque ad nostra tempora: till our times. In re­spect of which troubles, the Citizens of Geneua, aswell for the assisting of their Bishops right (I suppose), as for the de­fence of themselues, and their owne priuiledges menti­oned: did ioyne themselues in league with the Helueti­ans, and with them of Berne, and Friburge. By meanes of which league, or howe else it came to passe (I knowe not) but it appeareth by Bodinus, Bodinus de repub. pa. 353 that after some time, the Ci­tizens of Geneua, growing wearie of the foresaid troubles: did beginne to professe, that they would not be bound eyther to the lawes of the Duke of Sauoy, or of the Bishop. But (saith the same Bodinus) they thought it not safe for them, to at­tempt any thing, vntill there did arise a quarrell for the princi­palitie, not onely betwixt the Duke and the Byshop: but like­wise betwixt the Bishop, and the people. The contention or dislike betweene the Bishop and the people, grewe heere­of (as I take it): for that by the paynes and preaching of Farellus, they beganne to dislike of Poperie, and inclined to a reformation of Religion, as diuerse Citties neere vn­to them, and with whome they were in some league, had done. Which inclination of theirs, was altogether misliked, (ye may be sure), by their popish Bishop. Where­vppon, as also in respect of the saide iarres, betweene the Duke and their Bishoppe: the Citizens receiuing some good incouragement diuerse waies (I doubt not), nouan­dae religionis studium ac reipub. commutandae oblatam occasio­nem arripuerunt, they tooke vpon them the indeuour of altering religion, and omitted not (saith Bodine) the occasion offered, of changing also the estate of their common wealth.

[Page 12]It resteth nowe to be considered, by what meanes (in part) they brought their saide purposes to passe. It ap­peareth by Caluins wordes to Cardinall Sadolet: that if the Byshop woulde haue harkened at the first, to Farellus, for the abolishing of Poperie, they would then, haue been ve­ry well content, to haue admitted still of his Episcopall iu­risdiction. But (as I sayd) hee would not. And then both Farellus, Viretus, and all their fauourers, did set vpon the Bi­shop, withall maine & might. They said it was not meete, for a Minister to haue so great a liuing. They pronoun­ced him, clara voce furē esse, with a loud voice to be a theefe. The Byshop being at this time (that I speake of) in posses­sion of the soueraigntie and ciuile gouernment of that Ci­tie:Caluin to Sa­dolet. pag. 172 and hauing then in his hands (as maister Caluin confes­seth) ius gladij & alias ciuilis iurisdictionis partes, the power of life and death and other partes of ciuile iurisdiction: The said Ministers exclaimed against that ciuile authoritie in Bi­shops:Ibid. they taught it, to be vtterly vnlawfull, for a By­shop, to haue anie such soueraigntie: they said hee was an vsurper, and what not▪ By which proceedings and do­ctrine of the ministers, no maruell of the Citizens, acknow­ledging no right in the Duke of Sauoy ouer them: beganne to think, that then the Bishop by the word of God, hauing none in like maner: the soueraigntie of the citie must needs be in themselues. In this contention therefore, (which Bodinus speaketh of) for the principality betwixt the Bi­shop and the people (how matters fell out I know not) but such was the present occasion: that (as it seemeth) the Bi­shop with many of his popish crue, gat him thence. Quo eiecto Geneuates monarchiam in popularem statum commu­tarunt: Bodinus de repub. pa. 353 who being cast out (saith Bodinus), the Geneuans did chaung theyr monarchy into a popular state. In respect whereof, [Page 13] the said Bodinus:Bodi. meth. pag. 243. doth adde, the cittie of Geneua, vnto those citties of Heluetia: which for the auoyding of the ti­ranny of their gouernours, haue entered into a confedera­cy, & shaken them of. Vpon the eiection of the said Bishop, the citizens (by such aduise as they liked) ordained a newe forme of popular gouernement: such a one, as they them­selues thought meetest for the state of that cittie. A coun­cell was chosen, to consist of two hundred: which coun­cell hath the highest, and a standing authority, sauing that for the making of lawes, for the choosing of their principall magistrates, for decreing of peace or warre (which were iura magistratis: notes and rightes of soueraignty and re­gality) these be reserued to the whole people and multi­tude of citizens. They ordaine also two other councells: the one of threescore, and the other of fiue and twenty: and likewise also fower Syndicks, their chiefest magistrats, to bee yearely elected, with manye such orders as they thought conuenient, for the better gouernement of the cittie. Whilst they of Geneua were busyed in these affaires, which were necessary for their state: the Bishop with all his shauelinges and adherentes, was not idle I assure my selfe.De. repub­Helu. He laboured (as it seemeth by Simlerus) a reconcilia­tion with the Duke of Sauoy: and (by what meanes I know not) did grow into such a frendship with him: as that hee obteyned of him his assistaunce: meaning to haue recoue­red, by force and armes, his saide right and authoritie. They of Geneua vnderstanding of this course: did fortifie themselues,Munster Cos. Sleidan lib. 10 Simlerus de rep. Heluit. with the strength of Berne. Insomuch as the Duke and the Bishop, assaultinge the citty anno 1536. they were both of them discomfited. Bernatibus illis auxilium se­rentibus: they of Berne assisting them of Geneua. And since that time, the citty of Geneua: hath bene ruled by such a kinde [Page 14] of gouernement, as hath briefly bene touched.

I would not haue any man to thinke, that I take vppon me, to censure the doinges of the ciuile state, either of Ge­neua, or of any other place. Onely I haue bene bolde, to set downe the premises, as I finde them reported by the au­thors mentioned: because they conteine some such mat­ters, as are necessary to be vnderstood, in some ouuert sort; in respecte of that, which followeth, concerninge the first institution of the pretended consistoriall discipline. Besides (propounding to my selfe, throughout this whole booke, to deale with nothinge, whether it bee good or euell, fur­ther then as it concerneth the affaires of the Church:) I doubt not, but that I may presume, without any mans iust offence, to speake my opinion, as touching the Diuinity, which was pretended, by the saide Ministers of Geneua a­gainst their Bishop. For in deede I doe dislike it. If such dealinges were simply to be vrged by the worde of God: they might reach further, then would be conuenient. Ine­uer thought it agreeable to Diuinity, for ministers to caste of their rulers, at their owne pleasures. M. Caluin writeth wisely to Cardinall Sadolet: but the course, which (there hee sheweth), was helde by the Ministers, (say what men list,) cannot be iustifyed. I know one that hath written thus of that matter:D. L. eum principatum, euangelij lux ciuitati restituit, the light of the Gospell, did restore to the Citty, that principality which the Bishop had. But all the learned Diuines in Ger­many, at their conferences with the Emperour (about that time) were of a contrary opinion, as touching the Bishops in those countries, who are greate Princes. And surely it would seeme strange to me: if the Gospell should wrest the sword, out of any ciuile Magistrates hande: let him be of what profession he list.

[Page 15]I doe therefore subscribe to Zanchius iudgemente, for mine owne part, where he sayth: We deny not, that such Bi­shops, as bee also Princes, besides their Ecclesiasticall authority, haue also their politicke lawes, and secular powers, as other Prin­ces haue: vz. right, in commaundinge in secular matters, right of the sworde, Cap. 25. Aphoris. 21. right of electing, and confirminge of some kinges & Emperours: and right of ordayning, and administringe of other politique affaires: and that they haue right to compell the people their subiects, to performe the duety of their subiection vnto them. And therefore we confesse, that their subiectes ought to obey their ciuile commaundements, (which may be kept without the breach of Gods law:) and that not onely for feare, but also for conscience sake. Thus farre Zanchius, whose iudgement in this pointe, will be esteemed of (I suppose) hereafter, when all that ei­ther is, or can be sayd by any man to the contrary, will fall to the ground, or vanish like smoake. If it be saide that Zan­chius writeth truely, but that my allegation of his wordes is altogether impertinent; for that the Bishops of Geneua, had neuer any setled right in the ciuile gouernement of that cit­ty: I am not the man that will either iustify mine owne di­scretion, or impugne any thinge, which may bee brought for the ciuile proceedinges of that state, or of any other: so as they carry no false groundes of Diuinity with them, which may prooue daungerous vnto our owne:De auth. mag. in subd. &c. vindic. cont. Tirannos. Hottom. Francog. &c. such as haue bene since published, for the authorizing of subiectes in many cases, to depose their Princes. Christ refused to be a deuider of priuate mens inheritances: and then surely it doth not become me, to be a decider of any titles, to coun­tries, citties, or kingdomes. I pray for all: and will not fur­ther meddle with any.

Now it remaineth, that hauing made relation vnto you, of the premises (as you haue heard): I should also acquaint [Page 16] you, more particularly, with the alteration that was made at Geneua, in the order and forme of the gouernemente of the Church. Wherein you shall finde, some greater varie­ty both of actions and pollicy.Beza in vita Calu. M. Beza speaking of the re­formation of religion in that citty, sayth: that Christes Go­spell was established there, mirabiliter, wonderously. A wonder the common saying is, doth last but nine dayes: but that wonderfull course, which he speaketh of; will not bee for­gotten, I suppose in hast.

As you haue heard, that the Bishop of Geneua was dealt withall, for the principality of that City: so was he vsed as touching his Bishopricke. The Ministers cryed out, that his Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction, was as vnlawfull, as his ci­uile. Wherevpon the Bishopricke was dissolued: and that forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement, vtterly abolished, whereby that citty had bene ruled in Church-causes, from the time, that first it receiued the profession of christianity. Together with the ouerthrow of which Bishopricke; all the orders, constitution, and lawes of the Church: (which had beene in framing by all the learned men in christen­dome, euer since the Apostles times) were at one stroake quite chopte of, and wholy abrogated: vnder pretence (forsooth) of the name of cannon lawes, the popes lawes, and I wot not what. Wherein the ministers dealt as wisely in mine opinion: as if some king, succeeding fower or fiue of his predecessors (whome he hated): should therevpon ouerthrow, all the lawes, that eyther they, or any other of his predecessors, had euer made before him.

Maister Caluin being charged by some (as it seemeth) with the rashnesse,Calu. de ne­ces. ref. eccl. pa. 64. which was vsed at Geneua in this point▪ doth excuse it thus in effect: vz. that they deale therein, as men doe with rotten houses: they ouerthrewe all the whole forme, of [Page 17] ecclesiasticall building as once, as it were into a rude heape: out of the which they might the better make choyse, and take of that olde stuffe, as much as liked them, to build withall: againe after­ward. Indeede there are many builders in these dayes: of such a kinde of humor. Nothing will content them: but that they build themselues. And therein also they are very inconstant. Now this must downe, now that must vppe; now this must bee chaunged, and that must bee enlarged▪ here the workemen mistooke me: this is not in good pro­portion, away with it: I will haue this square chaunged into a rounde: and this rounde altered into a square. A fit­ter metaphore could not well haue beene found: to haue shewed the vnstayed minds of such manner of reformers.

But to proceed. The auncient forme of ecclesiasticall gouernement with all the Elders thereof, being thus ouer­turned; as the citezens in the framing of their newe ciuill gouernement, had an especiall eye to the manner of the ciuill gouernement of their neighbour citties and states ad­ioyning: so had both the magistrates and the ministers at the first also great regard of the ecclesiasticall pollicy in the same citties: relying principally vppon their forme of Church-gouernement, and vppon their orders and cere­monyes in that behalfe prouided. But this Church Modell; was also shortly after wholy misliked. For the ministers perceiued, that (as they thought) the ciuill ma­gistrats, had too great authorie giuen vnto them in church­causes: & that they themselues had a great deale too little. Maister Caluin speaking of this manner of reformation:Calu: to Sad: calleth it, but a correcting of the Church. And Beza yeeldeth a reason:Beza in vit. Calu: why Farellus & Viretus contented thēselues with such a simple Church-gouernement: vz. in effecte (to my vnderstanding): not that they were ignorant, what insuf­ficiency [Page 18] there was in it: but because in such a hurly burly, and great chaunge of things, they could haue no better; and afterwardes when they woulde faine haue bettered themselues, the rest of the ministers, that should haue ioy­ned with them therein, were fearefull to attempt (so soone) any new alteration.

The same yeare, that Geneua was assaulted (vz. 1 5 3 6.) Maister Caluin came thether: and was there admitted non concionator tantum (hoc enim primum recusarat) sed etiam sa­crarum liter arum doctor: Ibid. not onely for their preacher (for he had refused that before) but also for a doctor of the holy scriptures. In which place, hee was scarcely warme: when like a man of courage (reiecting all feare) hee tooke in hand to frame a new platforme for the gouernement of that Church, (or as Maister Bezaes word is) ecclesiam componere to compound the Church: being of likelyhood before in his opinion, tanquam dissoluta scopa, as a dissolute Chaos and vndigested bundell. And in very short time, hee did so farre prouaile therein: as that hee caused the cittizens (being assembled together) to abiure their former popish gouernement (as they termed it) by Bishops:Beza in vit. Calu. and to sweare to a certaine draught of discipline paucis capitibus comprehensam: comprehended (as Beza saith) vnder a fewe heades.

What the forme, of this draught was: I finde it not any where mentioned. But whatsoeuer it was: it appeareth that both he, Farellus and Viretus, so vsed themselues in the administration of it: as that the rest of the ministers, and the chiefest of the cittie grew quickly, very weary of it. For through their rough dealing in diuers pointes: especially in opposing themselues against the orders of Berne, Capit. to Far­ell. epl Cal. 6 (before that time receiued there) and particularly for their obsti­nate refusing to administer the Lordes supper with vn­leauened [Page 19] bread;Beza invit. Cal. according to a resolution giuen to that effecte by a Synode at Lausanna of the ministers of Berne. which resolution, since, Beza calleth iniquissimum decre­tum: for these and such like causes (I say) they were al three of them within nine monethes (after their setting vppe of their short plat of discipline) bannished the cittie. The causes before mentioned of this their bannishment, were giuen out thus in generall termes: Tyranni esse voluerunt in liberam ciuitatem: voluerunt nouum pontificatum reuocare. Capit, to Far­ell epl. Cal. 6. They would haue beene tyrants ouer a free cittie: they would haue re­called a new papacy.

And here beganne the Consistorian humor, (which raigneth nowe amongst the factious sorte in England) to shew it selfe: but yet in a more secrete sorte, by their pri­uate letters one to an other. Their fauourers and partakers, (whome they lefte behinde them at Geneua) presently af­ter their departure, entered into faction: and refused to receiue the communion, with vnleauened bread, as it had beene ordered,Beza in vit. Cal: they should doe, by the said Synode at Lausanna. The ministers that remained in the cittie after them: were greatly disgraced. For in that they continued their ministery there, without the newe Discipline: they were said to hold otiosam functionem, Capit. to Far­ell. epl. Cal. 6. an idle function. The Senate of two hundred, that expelled the said three prea­chers,Cal. epI. 40 was termed by Caluin, tumultuos a perditorum homi­num factio, a tumultuoas faction of rakehells & castaway es. Beza saith:Beza: in vit. Cal. that in that councell, the greater part ouercame the better. But then by the way, they were not all of them, such manner of men, as Caluin reporteth The chiefest magistrates of the cittie, euen the Syndickes, were ter­med, factionum et discordiarum duces, the ringleaders of fac­tions and dissentions. Cal. epl. 10. They were resembled to Nabuca­dnezar: [Page 20] and the exiles to Daniell. And generally they gaue it out against all their backe frendes: that they went about to ouerthrowe the Church, and that they had ob­durated themselues against the Lord Iesus Christ. These and such like speaches, you must thinke were giuen out then secretly: but since, they are published in printe, for other ministers instructions: which may hereafter receiue any checke about that kinde of discipline.

Hetherto for ought I finde, the pretended discipline had no great successe. I must therfore proceede on forward. These three preachers being thus banished, their friendes at Geneua were maruailous earnest, to haue them thither a­gaine. Many letters were procured from certaine church­es and learned men, to the magistrates in that behalfe: as you shall partly perceaue by diuerse epistles set out vnder the title or together with Caluins epistles. Euery one like­wise in the Cittie, that held for the discipline, did his best with the people. But Maister Caluin was the man, whom they all of them most desired: for the rest (being else where placed) they cared not much.

Vnto these endeuours may be added: some very wise courses taken by Maister Caluin, in the time that he dis­continued from Geneua▪ Cardinall Sadolet hauing written to the Geneuians in dislike of the alteration, both of their state and of the Romish religion, admonishing them to returne to their olde byace: Maister Caluin aunswered him, and iustified as he thought meete their proceedinges therein: to their very good contentment. Also, where some (& that of his owne friends) had greatly laboured to discredite, the ministers of that cittie, (which were lefte,) to the griefe of the magistrates: & endeuoured to haue brought them vt­terly [Page 21] into contempt, for executing their ministerie with­out the pretended Discipline, &c. Maister Caluin staied that course by writing vnto them, that he doubted not, but that their ministers deliuered vnto them, the chiefe heads of Christian religion, which were necessary to saluation: and that also they ioyned thereunto the right vse of the Sacramentes. And then (saith he) where those two pointes are performed, Calu. epist. 17 illic substan­tia ministery viget: there is the substance of the ministerie: and a lawfull honour and obedience is to be giuen to that Ministery.

Lastly, the mutinie mentioned, which was about re­fusall,Beza in Vit. Calu. to communicate with vnleauened bread, he likewise appeased: by perswading the authours of it: that it was a matter of indifferencie, for the which they ought not to disquiet the peace of the Church. By which occasions, together with the former sutes mentioned, the Citie (as I iudge) hauing conceaued a better opinion of maister Caluin then they had before: and supposing, that if he came againe amongst them, he would vse a great deale more mildnesse, and mo­deration in his proceedinges then hee had earst done: they were at the last contented, (after two yeares bannish­ment and more,) to recall him vnto them: vz: in the yeare, 1541.

Whilest his friendes were labouring for him, (as you haue heard:)Calu. to Viret Epist. 25. he himselfe perceiuing, that hee shoulde re­turne thither, was still harping to his friendes vppon this string: how he might haue the Citie so bound to the forme of Discipline, which he had in his head, as that afterwardes they might not when they list,Calu. to Fa­rel. Epist. 50. start from it. And therefore as soone as he was come thither: hee imployed his studie that way especially. At the first offering of his paines to the Se­nate: he told him that the Church there, could not possibly conti­nue, except there were same certaine forme of Church gouerne­ment [Page 22] established. Whereupon the Senate ordered at his request, that he and fiue other of the Ministers should conferre together, about such a forme as they thought meet: and that hauing so done, they should offer the same to the consideration of the said Senate.

Here then you shall see the strength of maister Caluins wit. He wisely saw, that notwithstanding, the Bishops eccle­siasticall authoritie had been vtterly disgraced, and was thereupon reiected, as being (forsooth) Popish and tyran­nicall: yet it was not good for the Church, that the mini­sters should bate the citie one ace, of an ecclesiasticall au­thoritie, aequiualent at the least, to that which their Bishops formerly had enioyed amongest them. Howbeit, he well perceiued withall, that for the bringing of this matter a­bout; there must be verie good pollicie, and circumspecti­on vsed: or else that it would be a thing impossible, to bring a people, (hauing gotten their libertie) into the like or a worse seruitude, then they were in before. His plot there­fore (as I take it) was, as followeth.

He laboured to perswade the people and the Magi­strates: that as there was a ciuile Senate, for the gouerne­ment of the Citie, and the territories thereof, in ciuile cau­ses: so by the word of God, there should be an ecclesiasti­call Senate, for the gouernment of the same Citie and terri­tories (conteining aboue twentie parishes) in causes eccle­siasticall. And to this purpose he wanted not (I warrant you) very many probable reasons. The persons that should beare authoritie in this Senate: (I nothing doubt) but that he could haue been very well contented they should haue been all of them ministers: euen as the ciuile gouernment did then wholly consist of ciuile persons. But by reason of the great authoritie, that the preachers had before intitu­led the ciuile magistrates vnto, for the bannishment of [Page 23] their Bishop, & for their dealing in Church causes; (where­withall they were in some sorte possessed) hee very wisely considered with Farellus and Viretus, that if they tooke that course, they should finde vnresistable opposition. And therefore they deuised a way, which if they could obtaine, should bee in effect, all one, as if they had been all Mini­sters: and yet shoulde carrie such an outward shewe, as though there had been, no such matter intended.

And their deuise was: that their ecclesiasticall Senate should consist of twelue Citizens, to be chosen yearely (not out of the baser sort of the people, but out of the ciuile councels of the Citie, all of them to be states men): and but of sixe Ministers, who were to continue for their liues, except there fell out some occasion, to remoue them. With this inuention, after many perswasions vsed, both publick­ly in the pulpit, and priuately vppon euery occasion: the Cittizens at length were contented. They sawe, there should bee twelue of them continually, (as any matters should fall out,) to sixe ministers: which was oddes in­ough. They imagined, that notwithstanding they yeal­ded to such a platforme, for the satisfiyng of their Mini­sters importunitie: (when they sawe that needes they would be some body amongest them:) yet they should in effect keepe the raines still in their owne handes, and be able to curbe them at their pleasure. Vpon these and what other such like considerations I knowe not:Calu. epist. 54. but after mai­ster Caluins very great paines taken about that matter, in­somuch as hee was therewith all almost oppressed, Beza in Vit. Calu. the Cittie at the length was induced, to admit of their platforme, with the lawes and prerogatiues thereunto appertaining. And this was the first time, for ought I finde, that the pretended consisto­rian Discipline, euer drew breath.

[Page 24]Maister Caluin, hauing thus (as you haue seene) preuai­led in this attempt: it was not long after, but that the wiser sort of the Citie, perceiued their owne ouersight. For vn­der pretence of ecclesiasticall causes, there was nothing done in the Citie, (which this newe Senate misliked,) but by one meanes or other, they drewe it vnto their cogni­zance. They would say that this and that was an offence to the godly: and then forthwith it was a cause for the Con­sistorie. Besides the maner of their proceedings in such cau­ses, as were brought before them, was altogether misliked. They endeuoured by all their deuises:Cal. to Viret. Epist. 76. to winne the people vnto them. If any of the Magistrates fell into their handes: especially,Calu. Epist. 71 if they had no good opinion of them, they were sure to pay for it. A very rigorous course was held with certaine of the chiefe of that Citie, about their dauncinges (vpon a certaine time) priuately in one of their friendes houses: as you may read in the 26. chapter following. And their especiall drift therein, (besides their affectionate dea­ling vpon a quarrell towardes one of them,) was: (as I take it) to curry fauour with the multitude. Oh (saith Caluin) (writing how like men both he and his associates had pro­ceeded in this dauncing matter) exemplum valde proderit &c. Ibidem. the example will do much good. For now it is alreadie a com­mon saying amongest the people, nullam esse spem impunitatis, cum primarijs non parcatur, that there is no hope of impuni­tie, seeing the chiefe men of the Citie are not spared.

But you will say, howe came it to passe, that the twelue Elders all of them states-men, would suffer such things to be done in that Senate, as should breede such discontent­ment amongest the Citizens? You may remember that I tolde you howe maister Caluin in this matter shewed his great wit, and ouerreached the Citizens notably. He was [Page 25] not ignorant, how easy a matter it would proue, for him and his fellow ministers, to ouer-rule twelue simple men, all of them vnlearned, as being either apronmen, artizans, or marchantes. But his chiefest reach was: that he knewe these twelue graund gouernours, woulde certainely re­member, that their office was but annuall: and that if they opposed themselues against their ministers, being theyr superiours in office, (and whose authoritie was still to con­tinue) they might afterwardes peraduenture be caused to repent it. And in deede according to his good foresight, so it came to passe; which encreased the cittizens generall discontentement and dislike of that manner of Church­gouernement.

Besides, an other thinge there was, that especially grie­ued them: and disclosed their want of prouidence. They saw their cittizens of that Senate, not onely ouer-ruled by the said six ministers, but likewise all the ministers so ouer­topped by Maister Caluin, as that in effect he was Domine fac totum: & tooke vpon him to doe all in all. Wherevpon there were some that beganne to feare; least (as I suppose) Maister Caluin sought (by his cunning) to bring them a­gaine, to the gouernement of one: which they alltogether detested. Thus he himselfe reporteth in effect of this mat­ter: vz. that there was a supplication found, which was meant to haue beene exhibited to the people, at their most generall as­sembly, wherein these two propositions were contayned: Nihil esse legibus vindicandum, Cal▪ to Viret. cp. 77. nisi quod rempub. laederet: that no­thing was to be punished by lawe, but that which did hurt the common wealth. And the other: periculum esse, ne dum haec vrbs vnius hominis melancholici cerebro obtemperat, excitata seditione, perdat mille ciues: that there was daunger, least, whilest the cittie, obeyed the brayne of one melancholy man, [Page 26] vppon some rebellion raysed, it might ouerthrowe a thousand cittizens.

But it will be said, that Maister Caluin reporteth this as a slaunder. I confesse he doth so. And yet for my part, this I belieue was true: that in effect he ruled there in that Se­nate as peremptorily, as euer the Byshop of that cittie did be­fore him, by vertue of his ecclesiasticall authoritie. And I am led to iudge so, by his owne wordes. For in the time of his banishment, when he was vrged by sundry mini­sters, to admit of equall conditions, and to returne to Ge­neua, for the good of that Church: hee aunswered them partly thus. Ad tantam multitudinem regendam, qui suf­ficerem? Cal: to Farell. ep. 23. how should I be able to rule such a multitude? Againe: desuetudine oblitus sum artis regendi multitudinem: through want of practise, I haue forgotten the art of ruling a multitude: And to Viretus, speaking of his going to Geneua: Cerno quam arduum sit munus ecclesiasticum regere: Cal. to Viret: ep. 25. I perceiue howe hard a matter it is, to mauage an ecclesiasticall function. Againe I am nescio quid factum sit, vt animo incipiam esse inclinatiore, ad capessenda eius gubernacula: I know not how it now commeth to passe, that I am of a more inclininge minde to take the gouern­ment of that Church vpon me. What doe all these speaches meane (I pray you,) but that notwithstanding his pretence of assistantes: yet hee meant so to lay his plot, as that they should all be constrayned, all the sort of them, to daunce after his pipe?

But howsoeuer these thinges may be interpreted, this is most apparant: that, (as I sayd) such were the Consistorian proceedinges, as that both he and his Consistory, did grow into great hatred and malice. Insomuch as writing to his friendes,Cal. ep. 79. he complayneth in this manner. We haue too ma­ny, of a hard and vntamed necke, who vpon euery occasion do en­deuour, [Page 27] to shake off the yoake: that by their tumultes, they mighte abolish the lawfull order of the Church. Cal. to Viret. ep. 73. There are in that nom­ber, both olde men, and young men. The youth especially, is here most desperate. And to Viretus: Nisi dominus &c. except the Lorde, doe rebuke the sea and the windes; I see there are greate stormes toward vs: which they mooue, who ought rather to ap­pease them. Cal. to Viret. ep. 3. I dare not call you hether, for many causes. The chie­fest is: for that I am afrayd, how at the length we must giue place vnto them, who will neuer end, vntill they haue ouerthrowne all. Likewise to the same Viretus. Many, are such children, that they are affrayde, at the ridiculous shaking of a head &c. Si desi­stam, Cal. to Viret. ep. 73. totum consistorium ruat necesse est: if I desist, there is no remedy, but downe falleth the consistorie. Great tumults, were vp amongst them in the cittie: and therefore he altered his former mind touching his not calling of Viretus: and requesteth him most earnestly: (as beeing more gratious then himselfe) to come and helpe to appease them. You cannot possibly doe a thing (sayth he) that shall be more grate­full vnto me: then if you shal make a good ende of these quarrells: me ad Garamantas relegato, though I be bannished into the far­thest partes of the worlde. Cal. to Viret. ep. 82. And in another epistle: Eo prorupit improbitas, vt retineri qualemcunque ecclesiae statum diutius posse (meo praesertim ministerio) vix sperem. Impiety hath gotten such a head, that I canne scarsely thinke, there can anye tollerable state of the Church continue here, especially, by my ministery.

These dissentions proceeding thus on for a time: at the last they came to this issue:Cal. ep. 165. vt maior Senatus receptum et bactemus seruatum ecclesiae ordinem repente conuelleret. Nos re­stitimus: that the greater Senate did sodainely ouerthrowe the order of the Church: which had beene receiued and kept. But we withstood them. An argument of very good subiection. Much trouble would surely haue come of it, but that vpon [Page 28] a sermon▪ preached by Maister Caluin, and after vppon a motion made by him, and the rest of the ministers to the Senate, order was taken, that for the quieting of all partes, the said sentence of the greater Senate, should be suspen­ded, vntill the state of Geneua had taken the aduise, of foure Heluetian citties,Beza de vit. Caluin: their neighbours and friendes; touching the pointes in question: vz. about the authoritye of their Consistorie, to suspend men from the communnion, as they sawe cause: which is the verye scepter of that pretended Syon.

When this course was taken: marke I pray you Maister Caluins pollicy.Calu. to the minist▪ of Tig. ep. 165. He knew (as in effect he saith) that none of the magistrates of anye of those fower citties, woulde write any aunswere, to the cittizens letters of Geneua, but by the aduise of their ministers. Wherevpon, whilest the Syndickes with their councells were conferring about their letters to be sent to the foresaid citties, how, and what, they should write; yea peraduenture, who should endite them: Maister Caluin presently, speedeth a messenger one Budaeus, with his priuate letter vnto his priuate friendes, as to Maister Bullinger, &c. and with other letters also to the rest of the said Ministers ioyntly: of purpose to prepare and pre-occupate their mindes beforehand, against their magi­strates should write thither. Now I am come to the very panting or short breathing of the Consistoriall pretended Discipline, whether it shoulde liue or die at Geneua. The daunger it lay in, was exceeding great: but maister Caluin applied all his skill and medicines, for the recouerie of it. Few Phisitions will take such paines for their patientes.

Calu. to Bul. epist. 164.In his said letters, hee omitteth no point of his oratorie faculty.Calu. to the minist. of Zu­rick epist. 165 The aduersaries of his discipline he painteth out in their collours: as that their Senate was possessed with a lamen| [Page 29] table blindnesse: that they had dealt contumeliously with poore straungers: that they had vsed Farellus very hardly: that di­uerse of them were such as shamed not to defend Seruetus the he­reticke: and that they were Sathans Ministers that stirred vp these strifes. He indeuoureth to moue all commiseration towardes himselfe and his associates, in respect of their paines and daungers, vndertaken in the behalfe of that Church: as that for seuen yeares together, they had been im­pugned, by all those that sought to liue riotously, from vnder the yoake: that for the space of foure yeares, nothing had been pre­termitted by the wicked, whereby they might by little and little ouerthrowe the state of that Church: and that for the last two yeares, their condition was no better, then if they had liued a­mongest the professed enemies of the Gospell.

He ascribeth very much vnto the ministers: to whome he writ: which was an especiall meanes to procure their good fauours. As (when he saith) now the matter is come to this point, that all our ecclesiasticall orders shall be quashed, nisi istinc afferatur remedium: Ibid. except there come a remedie from you. Againe: you must so deale, as if the state of our Church were in your handes. Againe, nunc extremus actus agitur: now the last act is vpon the stage: and the enemies of the Gospell, are begin­ning alreadie, to triumph against Christ his doctrine, his mini­sters, and all his members. Againe: so perswade your selues: that if Sathan be not now bridled by you: habenas ei laxatum iri: he will get the libertie of his bit hereafter at pleasure. And againe, I beseech you brethren, by the name of Christ: to thinke that it is no common matter, that is committed vnto you: but that the consultation to be had, is of the state or very being of our Church. He touched furthermore, all other points: which hee was sure would be especially regarded by them, being them­selues ministers: in that (he saith) that if their aduersaries [Page 30] get the victorie, the whole authoritie of the ministerie, is not one­ly gone in Geneua: but that it will be subiect, to euery base rake­bels reproches. Which if it should happen, he telleth them, that he was resolued to depart thence.

Vnto all these artificiall points, thus insisted vppon by him: he addeth another, of no lesse importance, to drawe the said ministers mindes vnto the bent of his bowe. For notwithstanding hee ascribeth so much vnto them, as be­fore hath been shewed: yet he qualifieth all, in such sorte, as that they might suspect, that except they did concurre with his desire, he would hardly for his part, yeald to anie thing that might crosse him.

He writeth vnto them, very moderately, of his cōsisto­riall platforme. He saith, he is not ignoraunt how diuerse lear­ned men, Ibidem. do not thinke that forme of Discipline, that hee writeth for, to be necessary: but yet hee addeth, what his owne opinion is of it, and that he trusteth no man of iudgement will improoue the vse of it, where it is. He also goeth further, and protesteth, that whilest he sustaineth the person, that then he did, (meaning belike whilest he should be the chiefe pastor at Geneua) hee would striue to the death, for that forme of Discipline. But yet toward the end, he tempereth all againe in some sorte. For else it had been a ridiculous matter, to haue referred their doubtes to those Cities; and withall to haue signified vnto them, that thus and thus we are resolued: and if you shall iudge otherwise, we care not for your iudgements: for we will surely sticke to our owne. He therefore thus qualifi­eth this point, saying, nec morositate nostra fiet, vt loco potius cedamus, quam sententia: we will not bee so wilfull, as that wee minde rather to leaue our places, then our opinions. Meaning (as I take it) that seeing they had put their cause into their hands: they would be content to stand to their directions.

[Page 31]You do looke I am sure to know, to what purpose mai­ster Caluin vsed all this Rhetoricke: and what the matter was which hee desired at their handes. He himselfe shall tell you, as he told maister Bullinger. Breuis summa est, &c. The summe thereof briefly is this: that your honourable Senate may giue this aunswere: vz: that the forme of our Discipline, which heretofore we haue followed, is consentanea verbo dei: agree­able to the word of God: deinde nouitatem improbet: and then let them reproue the newsanglenesse of our Citizens. Indeed if he can get that aunswere, it is to the matter: and (of like­lyhood) will serue his turne. But what do the magistrates of Geneua all this while, you will say▪ Surely: I tolde you before. As soone as they could: they writ, and sent their letters, to the said foure Cities. Of those that came to Zu­ricke, maister Bullinger writeth: that they were but short: and so I thinke we may iudge of the rest. The effect of which letters was:Bullinger to Cal. epist. 166 vz: that they of those Cities would resolue them. 1. How excommunication was to be vsed by the worde of God. 2. Whether it might not be vsed by some other meanes, then by a consistorie. 3. What the practise of their Churches was in that point. Vppon the receite of these letters, (euen as maister Caluin foresaw it would come to passe) there were appointed in Zuricke foure: the Consull and three Senators, to consult with three of their learned Ministers, what aunswere was meet to be giuen, to the said three questions.

If the magistrates of Geneua, had met with as good an o­rator, as M. Caluin was: that would haue layd open the qualities and proceedings of the Consistorian faction; how they intermedled in all the common affayres of the citty: how they vsed to keepe men from the Communion, with­out yeelding any other reason why they do so, but because soome of the godly bretheren (forsooth) were offended [Page 32] with them: how, if a man haue committed any offence, for the which hee is punished, and professeth his harty re­pentance for the same, yet they will keepe him from the Communion, vntill it please them to say, that he is peni­tent inough, which they doe, as they affect the party. If in their letters they had infourmed, how vpon any light di­spleasure, or rash information, their wiues, their children, and seruauntes: were called into the Disciplinarian Consisto­ry, (a place for criminall persons) so as thereby, they were infamed: how they affected popularity, wholy, which might endaunger the Magistrates of the Citty, vppon any displeasure conceiued against them: how they of the citty had beene compassed, in the framinge of the platforme of the Consistory: how although there was a pretence of a Se­nate, yet one man did all, and the rest, were but attendants of his pleasure: how by experience, they found, that theyr Bishop, did neuer tyrannise more ouer them, by his spiritual iurisdiction, then now some one man did: how the auto­rity which had bene taught to belonge vnto them (beeing ciuile Magistrates,) was wholy taken from them againe, & nothinge lefte vnto them, but to bee the executioners of their Consistoriall mens pleasures: If they had foresene how likely it was, that M. Caluin, would seeke to discredite them all, to his vttermost, & had therfore signifyed vnto the Ma­gistrates of these foure citties, that there were as honest & religious men in the Cittie of Geneua, that misliked that forme of Church-gouernment, as there were that spake for it: that if in their letters they depraued any, their euill wordes ought not to preiudice the cause, committed vnto them: for that it is their custome, to slaunder all those, that do impugne them: that they for their partes, the magi­strates of that Cittie, rested all of them, as fully resolued to [Page 33] continue the preaching of the Gospel amongst thē, as euer they were glad at the first to procure & admit it: If they had giuen some round intimation, that they the cittizens were resolued, to haue their Church reformed according to some of the platformes of the Heluetian Churches, and that they would no longer endure to be so ouer-looked and hampered, in their owne free Cittie, by such a pragmaticall and intermedlinge Discipline: If (I say) their letters had beene penned after this or some such like sort, as I suppose there was good cause: (the proceedings of that Consistory being such at that time as since they haue beene in other places) I doubt not, but that the ministers of those citties, would haue aduised their magistrates: to haue giuen an o­ther kinde of aunswere then they did. For they the saide ministers belieuing Maister Caluins information, that all was true which he had reported vnto them: and conside­ring, what a small matter it was, which hee and the rest of his associates required at their handes, & that the satisfying of them therein, might breake the backs of such a wicked conspiracy, as was pretended to haue beene made euen a­gainst Christ himselfe and his Church: and not onely pre­uente that mischiefe for that time, but procure the establi­shinge of the Gospell there, for time to come hereafter; they dealt no otherwise for the sayde aunswere, then I am perswaded all the Bishops that now are in England, (if then they had liued) woulde haue done in the like case.

And that was in effect as Maister Caluin wished: sauing, that whereas he woulde haue had them to haue sayde,Bul. to Calu. epist. 166. that the forme of the Geneua discipline was consentanea verbo dei, agreable to the worde of God, they refused to write in that sorte: but were content to say that it did accedere ad verbi dei praescriptum: that is, that it drewe towardes the prescript of gods [Page 34] worde, or looked that way. But you shall heare Maister Bul­linger himselfe report the aunswere of their Senate: which was: that they were grieued, theyr Church was so troubled, as that one quarrell and contention did begette another: that they had lately heard of the consistoriall lawes of that Church (for Caluin had sent such of them as he thought good, vnto the sayde ministers by Budaeus his messenger) and did acknow­ledge them to be godly, and to drae towardes the prescript of gods worde: and therefore that the chaunging of them by any innouation, was not to be admitted in their opinions: that it was better, they should be wholy kept, especially in this age when men waxe worse and worse: that although (say they) our discip­line doth not agree with that of Geneua in all points: yet the same being framed according to the circumstaunces of times, places, and persons, doth not import any ouerthrowe of yours: and that according to their desire of Geneua, they had sent vnto them, the forme of their discipline, not minding (as they said) to prescribe any iote of it, to them: for that they deemed their owne at Geneua, to be more meete for them there.

This being the summe of the aunswere agreed vppon by the sayde Senate at Zuricke; Maister Bullinger presently dispatcheth the same in a priuate letter to Caluin:Bul. to Calu. epist. 166. and not that onely, but he also writ his letters at the same time, to the ministers of Schafhusen and Basill (two of those citties belike, to the which the deciding of the saide questions was also referred) signifying what aunswere the magistrates of Zuricke had made: that they likewise there, might con­curre with them in their aunsweres for the peace and edification of the Church of Geneua, although (sayth he) you haue not the like forme of discipline in your Churches.

After that M. Bullinger had thus dispatched his priuate letters: the Senate then, soone after, sent their saide aun­swere [Page 35] to Geneua. Which being receiued, perused, and con­sidered of: there was great muttering in the cittie. The magistrates thereby did finde themselues as it were in a la­berinth. The strength of their state, did depend especial­ly (as I iudge) vpon the league and frendship, which they had with the sayde fower citties. So as they might not doe any thinge: that shoulde dislike them. And on the other side, remēbring the great abuses of their Consistorialls, how they had formerly dealt with them, and tyrannized ouer them (as they supposed:) it greatly troubled them, to confirme vnto them, any such authoritie. It seemeth there­fore, that they endeuoured to protract the time, as much as they could. And yet because they thought it meet, that some thing should be done vpon the receipt of the sayde aunswere: they caused a kinde of generall reconciliation, by giuing theyr right handes, Calu. to Bul. epist. 171. and an oathe was taken, that none of them, for the time to come, would support any euill causes.

Maister Caluin being discontent with this plausible co­lour of peace, as perceiuing that thereby the restoring of the Discipline, vnicus pacis custos: the onely preseruer of peace (as he tearmeth it) was neglected, and that their Church was still, like Noahs Arke in the floud: he grewe (after a short time) to be resolute, and prouoked the magistrates, to giue their an­swere; whether they would followe the aduise of the sayd former Cities, or they would not. Whereupon (as it seem­eth) the matter was put to voyces.

And now see the vpshoote. In illa promiscua collunie suf­fragijs fuimus superiores, in that confused ofscouring of the whole multitude, Calu.' to Bul. epist. 207. (saith maister Caluin) we had the most voyces. It is very worthy the obseruation, and to bee kept likewise in perpetuall memory: in what honourable presence (accor­ding [Page 36] to maister Caluins own estimation) by how reuerend a companie of learned fathers, and famous persons, and with what singular grauitie, great wisedome, and mature deliberation, this solemne and glorious forme of the pre­tended holy Discipline, was reuiued againe and intertai­ned at Geneua. In illa promiscua colluuie suffragijs fuimus su­periores. In that disordered dunghill of riffraffe, tagge and ragge, our presbyteriall platforme, hauing moste of their voyces, carried away the bucklers. No doubt a worthie victorie: For if an assembly be called colluuies (as I take it is) a maiori parte, of the greater part: what godly man li­uing would not then haue flung vp his cappe and reioy­ced, to haue seene the noble Consistorye triumphing that day, with the applause and approbation of so honourable a company. Men may talke hereafter of the councell of Nice with shame inough: if they shall compare it with this royal assembly. In good earnest, seeing the multitude of all the Citizens of Geneua, was content to gratifie maister Caluin so much: it might haue become him well inough, to haue recompensed their friendships with some better tearmes. But let that go: if the Citizens themselues do take it well at his hands to be so vsed by him: it shall not any way trouble me any further.

When maister Caluin had well considered, how hardly he had obtained his conquest, and how it was not very vn­like, but that some of those, who had before opposed them selues, would still be practising to ouerthrowe his worke againe, if possibly they coulde: hee aduised (as it should seeme) with his best and surest friendes, what course was meetest to be thought of, and taken for the preuenting of so notable a mischiefe. And their plot was: howe they [Page 37] might strengthen their saide Colluuies or greater part, for the better continuance of it. The present oportunitie ser­ued their purpose. Whereupon like wise men, they so hammered their matters whilest the Iron was hot: that they procured fiftie of maister Caluins owne nation, all of them meere Frenchmen to be admitted Cittizens at one time in Geneua. Bod. de repu. lib. 2 Calu. 6. Which was a point of very great impor­tance. For (as I take it) the people hauing reserued to them selues (as Bodiue saith) ius i [...]be [...]dae legis, authoritie to make lawes: the Eldership being set vp by them, could not be o­uerthrowne afterwardes without them. And then to haue such an increase of assured friends, that would sticke as fast to maister Caluin, as the skinne did to his forehead: was surely a great matter in so little a towne. And as this polli­cie was put in practise for the Citizens: so I coniecture it was also from time to time, as touching the ministers.

None but Frenchmen might rule there in that Consi­storie: if maister Caluin could helpe it. When the Magi­strates vpon a time would needes haue one Trollietus a Ge­neuian borne, to bee one of their ministers: heare (I pray you) how maister Caluin writeth thereof, to his friend Vi­retus. Cal. to Viret. epist. 586. Trollietus quidam, quod natione sit Geneuensis &c. One Trollietus, because he is a Geneuian borne, is obtruded vnto vs: in whome there do appeare many signes, which none of vs like of. Aud I see not any thing in him worthy a Minister: nisi quod Simiae amant suos catulos: but that apes loue their whelpes. So as I gesse, that for maister Caluins time: no Apes were fit for his turne, but his owne. Though maister Caluin writ in this sort, (merrily peraduenture) to his familiar friend: yet maister Beza was not bound to haue published such a disgrace in print against those, that haue deserued better [Page 38] of him. But this partialitie in the choyse of their ministers; was not a matter that much offended any; for ought I find. Marry the other deuise, of making fiftie Frenchmen, Citi­zens at a clappe: did wonderfully trouble many. It caused a present mutinie in the Citie and a great vprore: the sparks whereof were neuer quenched, as long as maister Caluin liued.

And thus you haue the birth, and confirmation, of the Consistoriall discipline with a deuise for the continuance of it: collected (for the most part) out of such Epistles as Beza hath thought meete, to publish, for maister Caluins commendation. If I should haue set them both downe; as some others haue done: (who are no Papistes) you should haue heard another manner of history. But I like not to take thinges, at the worst hand. The trueth was it I sought for. And I would not haue done that neither in this point: but because certaine persons of the consistoriall humour, doe daily vpon euery occasion, still dash vs in the teeth, with the orders of Geneua: the discipline at Geneua: and the Consistorie in Geneua: as though that forme of discipline, had come lately from heauen: with an embas­sage from God, that all the Churches in the worlde must frame and conforme themselues, to the fashion of Gene­ua. Which gaue me iust occasion (in mine opinion) to search (as you haue heard) into the secrets of that manner of Discipline: to knowe indeede, from whence it came, whether it would, who deuised it: when, and how, it was planted at Geneua: the first place that hatched and recea­ued it.

IT was not long, after that M. Caluin had obtained his desire, (as you haue heard in the former Chapter,) for the planting of the platforme of his pretended Disci­pline in Geneua: when for the better backing of himselfe he procured maister Beza, his especiall friend, (a man whom he knew to be of a very great courage, wise, learned, and one wholly addic­ted to applaude to all manner of his procedinges) to be likewise placed with him there. And then being both to­gether: two such excellent men amongest a company of Artizans and Marchaunts: what might they not compasse and bring to effect? Frō the time that maister Caluin came first to Geneua, 1536. and had gotten the allowance of his first draught of Discipline, vz. 1537. hee grew daily more and more into liking with it: especially after the fuller inlargement thereof 1541. when hee was restored againe to his place at Geneua. But most of all, when about the yeare 1554. hee hadde triumphed as it were the third time, by the greater part of the voices of the ignorāt multitude, and had also gotten maister Beza his applau­der into his company: then we may not maruaile, if that his platforme so trauailed for, seemed glorious vnto him.

In those daies when maister Caluin did first shew him­selfe in his writinges against the Papists: he was the onely man of especiall account of all the French nation. Inso­much as all the rest of his countrey men, that began more [Page 42] freely to professe the Gospell: did principally in a manner depend vppon him: especially after he had possession of his great authority in the Presbytery at Geneua. For then by reason of the quiet estate of that Citty: the free accesse and entertainement of such French-men as fledde thither for religion: the want of sufficient men in other places of their owne countrey, to giue aduise and Councell, what was to be done in such distresses of the Church, as then were vsuall, and by reason of the fame, ability, learning and pollicy, both of himselfe and of his assistant Maister Beza: and likewise of their willingnesse or rather desire to inter­taine all occasions of busying themselues: the Citty of Ge­neua became in short time (for their sakes) to bee of great estimation in Fraunce. He that shall read maister Caluins and maister Bezaes two bookes of Epistles, and likewise the Commentaries of Fraunce, with diuerse other discourses, about those affaires, and should withall giue any credit ei­ther to Heshusius, Baldwinus, Carpentarius or others, mē lear­ned all of them, and some of them knowen Protestants: would certainly maruaile to vnderstand into what actions and dealinges they thrust themselues: of warre, of peace, of subiection how farre it extended: of reformation with­out staying for the Magistrates: of leagues: of impositions, and what not. They writte their Letters, to this state and that state: to this Prince and that Duke: to this king and that Emperour: what their desire was, should be done in such, and such a matter? Not like the persons either of Newington or Hitchin, (that I may vse Cartwrights ex­amples of such Episcopall Seas, as he alloweth of) but ra­ther like two Patriarches at the lest. Generally for Church­matters: they had ingrossed the whole managing of them into their handes. And then you may easely gesse, what [Page 43] fauour the pretended presbyteriall discipline was like to finde with them: it being the onely pretence for all that their authoritie, or whatsoeuer else they tooke vpon them to deale in.

And marke howe the oportunitie serued them. The number of zealous professors in Fraunce daily increased: who exempted themselues from the tyrannous comman­dementes of their Romish Bishops. They had then no or­der or certain forme of Church gouernment: how to pro­ceede and behaue themselues in their religious assemblies. And to haue framed it to any forraine platformes: woulde haue stirred vp coales amongest them. Nay it was not pos­sible to haue been compassed, Maister Caluin and Maister Beza sitting at their sterne. So that it came no sooner in question, what maner of ecclesiasticall regiment was mee­test for those Churches: but the forme of discipline vsed at Geneua, was presently agreed vpon. From which time you shall finde that the reformation of religion in Fraunce, did wholly proceede after the rules of that kinde of discipline. It was not sufficient to haue the exercise of religion: but the Churches must vindicari in plenam libertatem, be restored to her full libertie, Pet. Carpent. ad Franc. portam. Synodes were held, lawes were made, and decrees were put in execution. What orders then in re­quest:Comment. of France. what ceremonies: what manner of seruice: what kinde of subiection: what way to reforme religion: but af­ter the fashion of Geneua? Which course of proceedinges together with the rules thereof, diuerse well affected in re­ligion did greatly mislike. Maister Ramus had written a booke against it,P. Carpent. ibid. (if Carpentarius say truely, and I take him to be an authenticall authour, because the late petitioner al­ledgeth him for the gouernement of his Elders,) tearming the fountaine thereof, or the platforme of such a discipline [Page 44] Thalmud Sabaudicum, the Sauoyan Thalmud, and greatly re­proouing the obtruding of it, vppon the Churches of Fraunce.

Much more might heere be added, and that out of their owne authentike writers of this disciplinarian canker: how and by what meanes it spred it self in Fraunce, and in some other Countries. But I will passe that ouer, and come to acquaint you, how the same infection hath been transpor­ted from those coastes to this side of the seas, amongst vs. If Maister Caluin, but especially maister Beza, could haue been content to haue contained themselues, within the limites either of Geneua or Fraunce, & to haue intermedled & raig­ned there only: and to haue vrged their platforme and de­uise no further: they might the better (for vs in England) haue been borne withall. But nowe seeing they haue not so done: who can be offended that I should make menti­on of it? to the end, that if they dealt amisse therein, theyr examples and proceedinges might haue the estimation, which indeed they deserue.

I omit how in K. Edwards time, certaine malecontents grew vp in the Church of England; because sundry matters might not bee ordered as they were at Geneua: maister Caluin hauing written sundry letters into England to some suche like effect. In Queene Maries time, assoone as cer­taine of our Countreymen were come to Franckforde: they were assaulted with the orders of Geneua. Quar­rels arising about the communion booke and forme of the seruice of England in Kinge Edwardes time: there were particulars collected out of it, by Knox, Whittingham, and such as had already tasted of that intoxication, and sent to Geneua to bee censured by M. Caluin. Who vpon the re­ceit of them: returned his answere, concerning the sayde [Page 45] Booke (compiled & confirmed before by such men, and such an authorititie as he ought to haue reuerenced): In Anglicana Liturgia, Epist. to Knox & Whitting ham 200. qualem describitis, multas video fuisse tole­rabiles ineptias: I see that in the English forme of seruice, as you describe it, there were many tollerable foolleries. When Knox and Whittingham had gotten this letter, they publi­shed it to the Congregation. Which being read, it so wrought in the heartes of many (sayth the discourser of the trou­bles at Franckford) that they were not before so stoute to main­taine all the partes of the Booke of England, Discourset pag. 36. as afterwardes they were bent against it. If you haue Caluins Booke of Epistles, I pray you reade it. Although Beza thought it meete to be published in print: yet shall you finde it, to containe no one point of substance in it able to perswade a childe. So as thereby you may iudge of their giddinesse: who were moued so greatly with it.

When some of the sayd parties:Discours. pa [...] Whittingham & diuerse others, of a more violent humor, came first to Franck­ford, they fel also presently into a very especiall liking of the Geneua discipline, as finding it to containe such rules and practices, as did greatly concurre with their owne disposi­ons. In England poperie was restored, and much cruel­tie vsed, whereby they were constrained for the sauing of their liues, to leaue their Countrye, their liuings, and theyr friendes. In which case a man may easily gesse, how ac­ceptable these pointes were vnto some kinde of humors: vz. that if Bishops and Princes refused to admit of the Gospell: they might be vsed by their subiects, as the Bi­shop of Geneua was vsed, that is (deposed,) and that euerie particular minister with his assistants according to the plat­forme of that discipline, was himselfe a Bishop, and had as great authoritie within his owne parish, as any Bishop in [Page 46] the world might lawfully challenge: euen to the excom­municating of the best, aswell the Prince as the Pesaunt. And indeede accordingly, these positions (as afterward it will appere,) were so pleasing to Whittingham and his con­sortes, as it had beene a very meane forme of discipline, (I suppose) that hauing such principles annexed vnto it, wold at that time haue beene refused by them. Howbeit ma­ny there were, and that of the learnedest of those, that then departed the Realme, as Doct. Cox, Doct. Horne, M. Iewell, with sundrie others: who perceauing the trickes of that discipline,Discourse pag. 47. did vtterly dislike it. So as when they came afterwardes to Franckford, they wholy insisted vppon the platforme of England: and in short time obtayning of the Magistrates the vse thereof, they did chose either D. Cox or D. Horne, (as I gesse) or some such other as had beene of especiall account in K. Edwards time, to be (as it were) their Superintendent.

For the bringing of which matter to passe, one maister Clanbourge a chiefe magistrate in that Citie, hauing shewed them some especiall fauour: complaint was made thereof (as it seemeth) to M. Caluin. Whereupon the sayde M. Clanbourg did write to him, (as it should appeare,) that he was induced to yeald to such a choyse, the rather because the sayd Superintendent had some such like superior place in England, before he came thither. Vnto the which point, maister Caluin, (that he might thrust his oare into euerye mans boat,) to disgrace the sayd platforme of England, as much as lay in him, and to incourage the factious com­pany at Franckforde, (that were besotted with his preten­ded discipline,) did returne this answere: (If Beza hath set out his letter truely):Calu. Epist. 229. I would one point had beene omitted, which was suggested vnto you, I doubt not by that one partie. (I [Page 47] thinke he meaneth the sayd superintendent.) For other­wise it would neuer haue come into your cogitation, (as though he had still kept his whole estate in England,) to haue esta­blished his former ministerie there with you, in a perpetuall possession of the authoritie therof. Peraduenture there is nothinge that from the beginninge, (his meaninge is, since the Englishemen came thither,) hath stired vp more con­tention, or at the leaste displeasure, & so hath kindled strife, then this emulation: in that the greater part did thinke themselues to be thrust from their equall degree, and to bee contumeliously excluded from the common societie: if the Church which had re­ceaued intertainment with you, (meaning the companie, that had receiued his forme of discipline, before the saide lear­ned men came to Franckford,) should receaue their lawes from the other parte or side.

Within some short time after this, that, the sayd order of the English Church was established, (as you haue hard) at Franckford: diuerse of those men, who had beene earnest for the Geneuian discipline, deuided themselues from that Church, (as Whittingham, Gilby, Goodman, and others,) and went to Geneua. Where, to the great discredit of the estate of the Church of England in Kinge Edwardes time: to the greate griefe of such godly men, and afterwardes worthy Martirs, as remayned here in Queene Maries time in England: and to the greate discouragement of sun­dry weake professors then also in England: they reiected the whole forme of our English reformation: the booke of common praier: our seruice: the order of our sacramentes, and of all thinges els in effect there prescribed: and confor­med themselues altogether to the fashions of the Church at Geneua. Where they had not beene longe, when they had sucked and disgested the whole doctrine before men­tioned, [Page 48] to be as the appendants necessarily annexed to that forme of newe discipline: and which was afterwardes en­larged by Beza, (as I take it,) Hotoman, & others of the dis­ciplinarian humor, in their bookes intituled: De iure magi­stratuum &c. Vindicia contra tirannos: Franco-gallia. &c. The generall summe of which their allobrogicall food, so much as concerneth this poynt of the disciplinarian reformation: (that I may omitt their desperate poyntes of deposinge of Princes, and of putting them to death in diuerse cases of re­sistance against reformation) was this: that if the soueraine magistrates refused to admitt it: the ministers, the inferior magistrates, the people &c. might set it on foote them­selues. Of these and such like arguments, diuerse bookes were allowed of, by the ministers of Geneua: to bee then printed there in English, and to be published for Englande and Scotland, as conteyning such doctrine in them, wher­of the worlde might take notice, that as they had practised some parte of it themselues, so they would be ready vpon all occasions to iustifie it.

I haue heard many, greately commende the intertaine­ment, that was giuen in Queene Maries time to English­men, at Geneua. And surely the citizens there, are (in mine opinion) to be greatly commended and assisted for it, as oc­casions shall require. But yet (to speake what I thinke) it had beene better for this Iland, that neither Englishman nor Scottishman had euer beene harbored or acquainted there,Historie of the Church of Scotland pag: 145. 213. 214. 216. 218. 303. 307. 308. 330. 343. 372. 373. 500. 502. 503. 504. 507. in respect of such disciplinarian new lessons, & con­sistoriall practises, as they haue brought with them from thence. If euer you meete with the historie of the Church of Scotland, penned by maister Knox, & printed by Vautro­uillier: reade the pages quoted here in the margent: like­wise peruse the English Chronicles of Scotland (as they [Page 49] stand corrected by some men of good experience and cre­dite, appointed for that purpose,) in the places also noted: but especially procure for your perfect instruction,Engl histo. of Scot pa. 433. 446. 448. the Acts of the Parliament helde in Scotland 1584. as they are printed and are abroad in many mens hands: and then tell me whether you be not of my minde, for the fruict of maister Knox his being at Geneua.

I could referre you to some other Bookes: but those shall suffice. For thereHisto. of the Chu. of Scotl. pag. 211. 213. 214. 216. you shall finde, that the whole course, which hath been held in that country, concerning the points I speake of; was complotted at Geneua, amongst the ministers there, and Caluin is named. ThereAct of Par­liament 1584 you shall finde the forme of the Consistoriall pretended Discipline, being sette vp without publicke consent, ouerthrowen by Act of Parliament, and afterward restored againe, you may seeEng. chron. of Scotl. pag. 446. 448. how.

As soone as this saide pretended discipline began to get a head in that Countrey: then againe (as amongest cer­taine of the Frenche Ministers,) no forme of Seruice, or of the administration of the Sacramentes, no orders, nor any thing else, but all must be done, as it was at Geneua. As any doubts did arise amongest them, concerning any Church­causes, though they were but very simple, & such as a stu­dent of meane capacity and iudgement, might very easely haue satisfied: yet no man but maister Caluin for his time,Calu. Epist. 283. 285. and afterwards maister Beza, (as though they had beene such Peters for the Protestants, as the Bishop of Rome preten­deth himselfe to be for all Papists) was accounted of suf­ficiency, or able to dissolue them: when they had ouer­throwen the auncient state of theyr Bishops, and set vp the Geneua minion by such means, as you haue heard: and had so farre preuailed therein, as that now they began to please [Page 50] themselues exceedingly. See how Beza, being informed thereof, doth allow of their dealings, & incourageth them to goe forewarde, in such their obedient & right Consistori­an courses. He tearmeth their reformation after the Gene­ua mould,Beza to Knox 1572. Epi. 79 (if I vnderstand him,) Caelum in terris situm: a Heauen placed in the earth: or at the least he compareth the force, which had beene vsed about that matter, to the po­wer of God. He saith: that no nation in so few yeares, had a­bidden more assaultes of Sathan, to haue hindered the saide pre­tended Discipline: and thanketh God, that Knox is theyr Pi­lotte to guide that ship. He exhorteth the said Pilot, and his fellow marriners, that seeing they had both pure Religion, and pure Discipline now amongest them, they should keepe them both together, and neuer suffer, (as though they had beene all of them Princes,) the authority of Bishops, in any wise to be resto­red againe.

Afterwarde, there being some new attempt made, (as it seemeth) in the behalfe of the Bishops: and (as I perceiue) defeated by the pretended reformers, vppon information thereof giuen by one Lawson a minister to Beza:Beza to Law­son 1580. he retur­neth him an aunswere beginning in this sorte, (though he were then sicke,) Beastime: you haue made me an happy man. The same yeare also he writte the discourse of his three kinde of Bishops: vz. of God, of men, and of the Diuell: and sent it vnto a man of great state in that countrey. It hath since beene translated into English by Field (as I take it) for our instruction in England. The iudge­mēt of a most reuerende man. Wherein Beza dealeth, (I wil not say) like what kinde of Bishop: but rather like some new start-vp Oracle: and dissolueth questions, Pellmell: vz. that all Bishops, (other then such as haue an equality amōgst them, and such as he alloweth and requireth, that euery minister should be) must of necessity be packing: that the chiefe [Page 51] Elders should be admitted to be present in their Parliaments, (as the Bishops were,) to deale in Church-causes, and to aunswere in place of God, if any other matters fell out, wherein the Lordes would be resolued: that Papistes may not to be excommunicated, what sinne soeuer they committe: and that it is Sacriledge, for any lay person, and such a sinne as God will reuenge, to staine his handes with the goodes of the Church. He further prescribeth, the whole course of the church gouernment, for that king­dome to be fashioned after the platforme of Geneua: ta­king much more vppon him therein, then Eleutherius, the Bishop of Rome would doe, hauing a farre better occasion offered him by the king of Britaine, Lucius. Who after hee had newly receaued the Gospell, mouing the saide Bishop (in respect of his great fame) by his Embassadors, to pre­scribe vnto him some orders for the Churches within his Realme: he returned vnto him, this aunswere in effect: that the King being Christes Vicar, and hauing the Scriptures, he the saide Bishop would not presume to prescribe any thing vn­to him, but leaue him, to be directed by them. Such an answer as this, had beene more fitte for a man of Bezaes place, then in such a pope-like manner, to forbid and prescribe lawes to such a kingdome. But I will leaue these and such like Geneuian dealinges, in that part of this Iland: because per­aduenture they are desired to be continued there still: and come vnto the Geneuating, for the selfe same platforme of discipline, here at home amongest our selues.

As soone as her maiesty, (whom Almighty God longe preserue to raigne ouer vs,) was come to the Crown: word was sent into this Realme from Geneua, Knox exhort. to Eng. pa. 92. in a Booke printed there 1559. that those Princes, that would liue without the yoke of Discipline, (meaning that Geneuian forme,) were to be reputed for Gods ennemies: and therefore vnworthy to raigne a­boue [Page 52] his people. About the same time, Goodman, Whittin­gham, Gilby, and some others, returned from Geneua into England. What violēt and seditious doctrine they brought home with them, (at the least they three that are men­tioned,) I leaue to some other oportunity. But for the Ge­neuian discipline, all their desires were in that point insatia­ble. They had seene how Caluin and Beza did raign at Ge­neua, and thought scorne thereuppon to be subiect vnto a­ny. It seemed vnto them a notable matter: If euery one of them might by and by, haue obtained an absolute auto­rity, where they should haue beene placed. Comming from Geneua: they thought they should haue beene ad­mired. But finding themselues therein deceaued, and that their Geneuian motions, were little regarded: it wrought in them a very great discontentment, and made them so wilfull, that nothing would please them, which was not practised in Geneua. So as thereby great contentions were presently stirred vp by thē. Their first assault was made a­gainst the Communion Book: with the orders & ceremo­nies that are therein prescribed. In the which quarrels, per­ceiuing themselues in many respectes (as I take it) to be o­uermatched: what was their refuge, but (forsooth) they must complaine to maister Beza? Which complaint re­ceaued,Beza Epist. 8. he writte his Letter in their behalfe vnto Doctor Grindall 1566. then Bishop of London. I wish a man would read the Epistles of Leo, sometimes Bishop of Rome, and con­ferre them with this of Bezaes: to consider, whether tooke more vppon him; Leo where he might commaund, or Be­za, where there was no reason he should at all haue inter­medled. But let him goe on. He findeth faults with the manner of apparell, appointed for our Ministers, with the Crosse in Baptisme, with kneeling at the holy Communion, with all cere­monies [Page 53] that carrie with them any signification, and withall the ancient Fathers, applying himselfe altogether to strengthen and incourage his factious old acquaintance, in their fro­ward and peruerse obstinacie. And because his course taken therein, should not bee vnknowen; with the same minde that he writte this letter, now you see hee hath prin­ted it.

The yeare after 1567. when the sayd malecontents per­ceiued that notwithstanding Bezaes letter, there was no place giuen vnto their giddie fancies, but that euery daye they were withstood more and more, and that with such sufficient reasons, as (for mine owne part,) I thinke, that all the Bezaes in Christendome will neuer be able sufficiently to confute: they beganne to stagger, and knew not what they should do. They could finde no directions in the scriptures, how they might behaue themselues: and ther­fore they were constrayned to fly againe to Beza. Obserue well I pray you,Beza. epist. 1 [...] what he himselfe writeth hereof. Saepe multumque &c. Being oft and greatly desired of my deerest beloued Brethren of the Churches of England, that in their mise­rable state, Consilium illis aliquod suggereremus, in quo acquies­cere ipsorum conscientiae possent, (I would giue them some coun­cell, whereupon their consciences might rest,) diuerse men houl­ding diuers opinions &c. A long time I differred for diuers waighty reasons so to do: and I professe, that most willingly I would yet haue beene silent, but that I thinke I should greatlye offende, if I should still reiect their so many petitions, and most pi­tifull mournings. Wee in England may thinke, wee haue had great iewels of these disturbers, and that for all their pretences of great learning, and grauitie, they were indeed of a very shallow iudgement, that could finde nothing to stay their consciences vppon, but what should bee sent to [Page 54] them from M. Beza. It was a fond part for them to write so vnto him, and a very insolent parte for him to take so much vpon him: but in that hee hath published so much to the world in print: (their childishnes, & his owne pride, I may terme it,) but I want a word to expresse my conceit.

Hereby it should seeme, that if Beza had taken such a course as might well haue beseemed him: it lay greatly in his power, to haue very much quieted all those present troubles. But that minde was farre from him: and yet it would haue tended a great deale more to his owne credit. For he giueth his sayd deerest beloued Brethren, very vn­wise, vnlearned, and vngodly councell: although euer since that time, (according to their promise) they haue ve­ry grauely builded their consciences vpon it.Beza Epist. 12 And it was this in effect, that if they could not enioy their ministerie, without giuing their consents, to the manner of making of our Ministers by the Bishops, without the voyces of such a Presbiterie, as he and his Schollers do dreame of, without giuing their consents to the vse of the Cap and Surplise, and to the manner of excommunicati­on in the Church of England &c. They should then giue place manifestae violentiae, to manifest violence, and liue as priuate men. Let any man that list read ouer that Epistle also, and then iudge indifferently, by what light aduise, this peeuish opposition hath beene continued amongst vs.

After some time spent in these brables: then they be­thought them, to fall more directly in hand, with the Gene­uian Discipline. To this purpose certaine persons assem­bled themselues priuately together in London: (as I haue beene enformed): namely Gilbye, Sampson, Leuer, Field, Wil­cox, and I wot not who besides. And then it was agreed­vpon (as it seemeth) that an admonition (which the now L. Archbishop of Canterburie did afterwards confute) should [Page 55] be compiled, and offred vnto the Parliament approching, Anno. 1572. Against which time, it was also prouided, that Beza should write his letterr, to a great man in this Land, for, and in the behalfe of the chiefe contents therof: vz. for the admitting in England, of the sayd Allobrogicall Discipline. Which office (you may be sure) he performed very willingly. Vnderstanding (sayth he) of an assembly of the Estate of England, Beza. 1572. Epist. 69. wherein there would bee dealing with matters of Religion, I could not chose, but write vnto you of that matter. And so he proceedeth; shewing, that all men doe allow of our doctrine, but not of our Discipline. That except, where there is pure doctrine, there be also pure discipline (mean­ing his own Geneuian Darling): the Churches are litle the bet­ter, and that therefore her Maiestie, and her faythfull Coun­cellors should procure the setting vp of this pure Discipline, not­withstanding any difficulties whatsoeuer that might hinder it. The same yeare also 1572. hee writ to the Queenes Maiestie, an Epistle dedicatory, before his annotations vp­on the new Testament. In the which, although he doth confesse, that her Highnes hath restored to this Lande the true worship of God: yet he insinuateth that wee want a full instauration of Ecclesiasticall Discipline: that our Temples are not fully repurged: that some high places remayne as yet not abolished: and wisheth that those wantes and blemishes might be supplyed and reformed: meaning (as I thinke hee would confesse if he were deposed) that her Maiestie should con­forme the present Apostolicall and most auncient estate of the Church of England, vnto that newly deuised, & vnbri­deled new-platforme of that demy-Parish of Geneua: as I may well call it by way of comparison. Now you must vnderstand, that as our old English Geneuians did weare out or grew out of date: So there did start vp a new broode in [Page 56] their places. Cartwright and Trauers finding (as it seem­eth) that itching and stirring humor in themselues, which delighteth altogether in nouelties, they would needes to Geneua. Where in short time they were notably confir­med in that doctrine of contradiction: & returned home, like the rest of our Geneuian Proselites, ten times more way­ward then they were before. Which disposition of theirs being knowen to the Crue: who then but these two, after their seuerall returnes thence, to bee the Champions suc­cessiuely, for the Allobrogicall Discipline? Since which times you shall finde little omitted, of those Disciplinarian pra­ctises: whereby this Lady their Mistris most indirectly, and by all vnlawfull meanes, hath beene elsewhere aduan­ced. Their writings (I speake nowe generally of all our English Factioners, that haue written for this forgerie) are full of bouldnes, of Sophistications, of falsifications, of peruerse wrestings, of seditious assertions, and of manye such corruptions. They haue sought by all indirect and vnlawfull meanes, to allure the people vnto them: and haue entred into a kind of an associatiō amongst thēselues. Neither the Bishop of Geneua, nor the Bishops in Scotland (for ought I finde) were euer more Turkifhly handled by Heathenish Libels and most vnchristian calumniations, then our Bishops haue bene, by diuers of these our Gene­uating Passauantians. By the like course also, and in the same manner, haue they dealt (as far as possibly they durst) with her most excellent Maiestie, with the high Court of Par­liament, with the Lordes of her Highnes most honorable Priuy Councell, and with the Iudges & Lawes of the land. The reformation of religion, which almighty God hath wrought amongst vs by her Maiesties meanes, some of them haue tearmed a deformation: and all of them do dis­grace [Page 57] and depraue it to their vttermost abilitie, most lewd­ly and falsly.

Since the time, they haue seen litle hope, that her Maie­stie & the other states of this land, would euer giue place to their vnstaied vanities and Phaetonicall presumptions: they haue applied themselues to the practise of the inseparable Disciplinarian adiunct mentioned: vz: that when such states do refuse, and will in no wise be perswaded to embrace and establish within theyr dominions, the pretended Church­Discipline, so liked of at Geneua: the Ministers may draw the people vnto them by all maner of allurementes, and so betwixt them set it vp themselues. And in this course, they haue already farre proceeded: altogether (as you may per­ceiue by the saide act of Parliament in Scotland, Anno. 1584.) after the same maner that the Ministers of Scot­land did proceede. They haue had theyr subscripti­ons, their Synodes of diuerse sortes, Classicall, Prouinci­all, and Generall. In those Synodes they haue practised Censures, made lawes of their owne, and disallowed some of those, which the state of this realme hath made. Vnto these and such like their priuate Conuenticles, they haue appropriated the name of the Church: and hauing separa­ted themselues in a sorte, from all those Christians, that fa­uour not their mistresse, they are become ioined into a new brotherhood of the Allobrogicall Discipline. As there grew some occasion of feare amongst thē, that these their Consi­storial proceedings, were likely to breake forth, before they were ready and able, by the strength of their assistance to stand to their tackling: consultation was had, and the mat­ter ouerruled, that none of that brotherhood, (if hee were apprehended) should in any wise appeach another: but vt­terly refuse to detect such dealinges of the godly brethren, [Page 58] as they themselues so greatly liked, and were of opinion to be most honest and iust. He that woulde take the paines to peruse the examinations of Cartwright, and of some others in the Starre-chamber: (as any may easily do, now that they are published) should finde all these particulars and many more, then heere I wil speake of, to be most true.

And thus you see the Geneuian Discipline deuised by one man, procured at the first by his comming, great intreaty, and friendship, being then a simple and a poore Gentlewo­man, God knoweth, fit peraduenture, in the alteration of a Monarchy into a popular state, to receaue some intertain­ment: but (as I say) now you may plainly see what a Ladie she is growen to be: through the instigations and practises of maister Caluin and Beza, and howe and by what meanes she hath enlarged her Dominions, and set her foot into this Iland, of Britaine.

I could further adde hereunto: how they haue not bin content to keepe themselues within the limites of Geneua, Fraunce, England, and Scotland, dealing as you haue heard: but haue sought to take the verie same course in some other Countries likewise. Maister Beza doubted not (as hee saith) omnes principes hortari, to exhort all Princes, to admit of the Sauoyan platforme.Beza de pres­byt. pag. 123. And this you shall finde a thing ordi­narie, both in maister Caluins and maister Bezaes writings: that as soone, as they haue heard from time to time of any countrey, that hath begunne to abolish Popery: by and by, they haue come vpon them, with most earnest solicita­tions, and gloses for the contracting of this their gallant Consistorian minion with them. What letters haue been written into Germany, Transiluania, and Polonia, wherein that point alwaies playeth a chiefe part? One letter written by Beza into Polonia, I cannot chuse but make mention of.

[Page 59]After diuerse attempts and sutes made, in the behalfe of their Discipline, to haue had her placed in Polonia: one Sar­nicius writ to Beza, (as it seemeth) in this sorte: timetur al­tera tyrannis: now the Pope is bannished, it is feared heere, that this your platforme of Discipline, woulde proue to be as tirannous a kinde of gouernement, as euer the Popes was.Sar. in. Beza. Epist. 14. Whereunto he aunswereth. Recte quidem: It is well said: sit ergo disciplinae regula verbum Dei. Let the word of God be the rule of Discipline. In effect as though he should haue said: Let our platforme at Geneua be admitted of amongst you: and then your Elders, they will easily see, what they may do, and how farre they may proceed in causes, by the word of God. Or if they cannot: send to Geneua, as other Churches haue done: and whilest I liue, you shal haue such authenticall resolutions, as (you may be sure) shall preuent all that danger. And a litle before in the said letter. Scis &c. you know there is one, Ibid. and the selfe same authour of doctrine and Discipline (meaning that of Geneua.) Quorsum igitur vnam verbi partem, alter a repudiata reciperemus? to what purpose ther­fore should we receaue one part of the word without the other?

To what purpose shall wee receiue the doctrine of our saluation, by Iesus Christ: except we receaue also the ma­ner of the Discipline vsed at Geneua? It was no lewder a say­ing of Pope Boniface (to my vnderstanding,)Ex [...]au, de maior, & obe­dient. when he affir­med it a point of the necessitie of saluation: for all men to be sub­iect to the Bishop of Rome.

If they of Zuricke, Berne, Schafhusin and Basill, the Ma­gistrates and Ministers there, had but suspected, or once but dreamed, that their assisting of maister Caluin to the hauing of his will ouer the Citizens of Geneua, would haue growen to such insolencie: would haue brought forth such pride, such sedition and so great presumption, as that like [Page 60] Pharaoes euill fauored and leane Kyne, the sayd his deuise would haue sought to deuoure all other Churches, their orders, their seruice, and formes of Discipline, much fayrer creatures, and in better liking, then his scragge: I am per­swaded, that all the friendship, all the intreaties, deuises and stratagemes: nay all the gold and goods in the world, could neuer haue drawen them vnto it.

But I will end this Chapter. They were no Iosephes, to foresee these mischiefes: or what a dearth of true reforma­tion indeed, both in Fraunce, Germanie, and diuerse other places, the vrging with such boldnesse, and violence, of such a meere fancy, and most apparant forgery, would pro­cure, or did portend. Time hath disclosed it. And Gama­liels Councell hath proued true. The factioners in this fol­ly haue been so long suffered to take their owne swinge: that now they are growne giddie,Acts. 5. and finde not what to stand vppon. It was from men that they sought for: and therefore it beginneth alreadie to come to nought: as by diuerse points following, I trust it shall appeare.

1. Thes. 5. THe rule of the Apostle, being well vnder­stood, is very notable, where hee saith: trie all things, and keepe that which is good. Many thinges haue faire showes: but trie them, and like the apples of Sodome, they fall into dust. In gold (the chiefest met­tall) there is great sophistication. He that will be easily led: [Page 61] is soone deceaued. To hold a thing for good, before a man haue tried it: (by such a touchstone as is meete for his cal­ling,) I hold it great folly. The credit which Popery grew vnto: did partly proceed of such rashnesse. Men were con­tent, hauing a good opinion of their Priestes to be led by them, as it were a Beare by the nose: and without any triall to accept in good part of whatsoeuer they gaue them. And as the people were carried thus away by their owne per­swasions of their Priestes: so were the poore Priests them­selues (many of them no doubt) misse-led through the ho­nourable regard, which they had of their superiors.

It is wonderfull, what time and custome will worke. A man may tell a lye so oft, that forgetting himselfe to be the authour of it: he may thinke he heard it, at the first from some person of credite, and so beleeue it to be true. It may be that the Bishops of Rome, through the continuall flat­tery of their Parasites, telling them still, they coulde not erre, and that they were the Lordes of the whole world: though at the first, they knew they lyed: yet afterwardes, beginning by little and little to beleeue them, they are now in time come to this, that he who saith otherwise, they will by no meanes endure him: he is become an heretique, and I wot not what. The Bishops also and other great learned men, following the streames as they ranne in their dayes: did grow by degrees to reckon of the Popes, as they found them, in their times, to account of themselues. And thus I suppose, (or at the least by some such meanes) that both the Priestes of all sortes, and likewise the people, became in time, to be so drowned in the puddles of Poperie: all of them together from the top to the toe, forgetting the Apo­stles saide rule, of trying euery thing whatsoeuer, before they held it for good. Which notable point of this Aposto­call [Page 62] wisedome being of later yeares fallen into practise, by euery man that feared God: according to the measure of his giftes and as his calling did require: we see it to be true by our owne experience, that euen children now (in a ma­ner) are able to discerne the trueth, in sondry thinges, wherein many men of iudgement and good learning were heretofore blinded. And euen in some such like sorte hath it happened in this matter of the Geneua Discipline.

Men haue been carried headlong with it, before they knew well what they did: and all vnder godly pretences. It is a plausible matter with the people, to heare them de­praued, that are in authoritie: but especially to vnderstand of anie libertie or power which may appertaine to them­selues. Besides when men haue been bitten with abu­ses, it is an acceptable point, to heare the things themselues which were abused, exclaimed against. For it falleth not vnder euery simple mans cap: to distinguishe well in that matter. Furthermore also it is not vnknowne, to any of iudgment, what the profession of any extraordinary zeale, and as it were, contempt of the world: doth work with the multitude. When they see men go simply in the streetes: looking downward for the most part: wringing their necks awry: shaking their heades, as though they were in some present griefe: lifting vp the white of their eies sometimes, at the sight of some vanitie, as they walke: when they heare them giue great grones: crie out against this sinne, and that sinne, (not in them their hearers, but in their superiours) make long praiers, professe a kinde of wilfull pouertie, spea­king most earnestly against some mens hauing too much, and some men too litle (which beateth into the peoples heades a present cogitation of some diuision to be made in time.) when I say the multitude doth see, and heare such [Page 63] kind of men: they are by and by carried away with a mar­ueilous great conceite and opinion of them: especially when withall they take vpon them to shewe a way or ma­ner of Discipline; which shalbe (forsooth) nothing preiu­diciall to the people: but rather bring them great libertie, and yet shalbe such a way, as shall reforme all thinges a­misse, and that in such sorte, as they themselues would ey­ther wish or desire.

And as many people in this our time haue beene thus beguiled, by a certaine crue of Ministers: so they the Mi­nisters amongst themselues, vpon the like outward shewes, and false pretences, in this point I speake of, (concerning the pretended holy Discipline) haue beene greatly misled, one sorte by another: the inferior, by the superior, (as by Cartwright and some others) and these superiors here, with vs, by two men especially, maister Caluin, and maister Beza, whilest the first sorte haue wholly depended vpon the se­cond, and the second vppon the third.

Maister Caluin that deuised the said platforme, was sure­ly an excellent man: and so is maister Beza, who since that time hath beene the principall maintainer of it. But yet both of them in their times: haue not wanted the com­mon affections of men. Much trouble there was, before their saide deuise was receaued: which made them after­wardes the fonder of it. We haue a saying, that the Crow thinketh her owne birde the fairest: and so doe men and women (for the most part) their owne children. Nature doth therein beare sway with the best. But especially she sheweth her force most, in the fruicts of a mans mind. For as our mindes ought to be more deare vnto vs, then our bodies: so are the fruites of our minds, of greater account with vs, then the fruites of our bodies. Few men that we [Page 64] heare of, will giue their liues for their children: but many wee see, will do it most readily in the maintenance of their opinions. Which thinges considered, I cannot but in some sorte excuse maister Caluin, and maister Beza: in seeking all manner of waies, all shewes, all shiftes, all aduauntages, that possibly they could either finde or deuise: whereby they might iustifie in some sorte the birth and bringing vp of their misconceaued offpring. The chiefest ouersight was in my opinion, that other learned and wise men, doe not well obserue, these manner of naturall and common affections in them: but were carried after them (as it were with a whirlewind) to like as they liked, to say as they said, and to doe as they did. If maister Caluin and maister Beza affirmed it: why it was inough.

I haue heard it credibly reported that in a certaine Col­ledge in Cambridge, when it happeneth that in there dis­putations, the authority either of Saint Augustine, or of Saint Ambrose, or of Saint Ierome, or of any other of the an­cient Fathers: nay the whole consent of them all alltoge­ther is alledged: it is reiected with very great disda [...]ne: as: what tell you me of Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose, or of the rest? I regard them not a rush: were they not men? Whereas at other time, when it happeneth that a man of an other humor doth aunswere, if it fall out that he beinge pressed with the authority either of Caluin or Beza, shall chance to deny it: you shall see some beginne to smile, in commiseration of such the poore mans simplicity: some grow to be angry in regard of such presumption: and some will depart away, accounting such a kinde of fellowe, not worthy the hearing. Were not this a pretty and pleasaunt Interlude, or Comedy: to behold such Parasites, play­ing their partes, so Disciplinarian-like▪ And all these follies [Page 65] and dependances; that the people haue doted so much af­ter some kinde of Ministers: that the inferior sort of those ministers haue taken all for currant coine, that hath beene paide them by their superiors: and that they the superiors haue beene also so farre ouercaried with the credite of the saide two persons: all these follies (I say) did proceed from this fountaine, that neither the people, nor their rash seducers, did in time put the holy Apostles rule in prac­tise: vz. try all thinges, and keepe that which is good. But it is better late then neuer. Since men of all sorts, haue ente­red more carefully into the triall of all the saide pretences, together with the very substaunce of that their pretended holy platforme, the furious rage of that floud hath beene pretily well diuerted. And the very chiefe Captains them­selues, being vrged of necessity a litle to fall on searching: haue found that (which I feare) they are sorry for: and are become (as it seemeth) like men greatly amased, to be at their wits end. And now to this purpose I will tell you a wonder.

If Cartwright and his adherents were to beginne the course againe, that they haue runne: I am perswaded, they would neuer tread so much as one steppe in it. But nowe they haue engaged their credits, they must shift thinges of, aswell as they can: and where their wards serue them not, beare-of the blowes, that shall fall vppon them, with their heads and shoulders. In the yeare 1572. (as you haue heard in the former Chapter) the first admonition was offered to the Parliament, as containing a perfect plat­forme of the worthy pretended Discipline, to haue beene established within this Realme. Within a yeare or two af­ter, Cartwright taking in hād the defence of that platform: did alter it in some points, especially where it seemed to as­cribe [Page 66] too much vnto the people. And then if it bee true which is reported: that one desiring vppon a time confe­rence with him, about these manner of causes; he answe­red: what neede you to talke with me? you may haue my Bookes, they are Est and Amen: I doubt not but he would haue sworne vppon conuenient occasion, that the admo­nitioners platforme, so qualified by him, was a most per­fect patterne for all Churches. Howbeit within a while after, it proued not so. For about the yeare 1583. where before the platfourme of Geneua (as it was lefte at large in Cartwrigts Bookes) had beene followed: now there was a particular draught made for England, with a newe forme of common Praier therein prescribed.

The yeare ensuing 1584. the seuen and twentith of her Maiesty, out starteth this Booke, with great glory at the Parliament time: and forthwith the present gouernment of the Church, with all the orders, lawes and ceremonies thereof, was to be cut-off at one blow, and this new booke or platforme must needes be established. But it preuailed not. Shortly after that Parliament, the saide booke and platforme was found amongest themselues, to haue some thing amisse in it. And the correcting of it was referred to Trauerse. A letter of Field to Tra­uers 1585. Which worke by him performed, came out a­gaine about the yeare 1586. when there was an other Par­liament in the nine and twentieth of her maiesties raigne. But it was then (as I suppose) seuered from the saide book of Common praier: and become an entire worke of it selfe. And then also at the saide Parliament there wanted not di­uerse solicitors,Examinat in the Star-cha- for the admittance of it. Afterwardes a new conference was had againe, about this seconde corrected booke. For still there were some things out of square in it.

In the yeare 1588. at an assembly in Couentry, these [Page 67] doubts,Ibidem. which were growen, were (as it seemeth) debated: and so were many other, Cartwright himselfe being pre­sent. But which of the saide doubts in their platfourme were then resolued, I find it not. This appeared, that some of them remained, which they were not able to resolue v­pon.Ibidem. For although they then concluded, that the plat­forme it selfe was an essentiall forme of Discipline, necessa­ry for all times: & subscribed vnto the practise of the grea­test part of it, without any further expecting the magistrats pleasure: yet in theyr subscriptions, they excepted some fewe points, which were reserued to be discussed, by certaine bre­thren in an other assembly. Where this assembly was kept, I canuot certainely affirme.Articles an­nexed to their booke of dis. But it appeareth vppon deposi­tion, that the next yeare after, there was one held in Sainct Iohns Colledge in Cambridge. Where Cartwright being a­gaine present and many moe besides: diuerse imperfections in the saide Booke of Discipline were corrected altered and amen­ded:Maister Bar­ber examined in the Starre. chamber. and there they did not onely perfect the said Booke: but al­so did then and there (as the examinate remembred) voluntarily agree amongest thēselues, that so many as would, should subscribe to the saide Booke of Discipline after that time.

Well then, at the last, I trust we haue found out, what they are agreede vppon: and what they will stand vnto. You see there hath beene much plotting amongest them: and it is time (a man would thinke) that after such stirres, meetinges, conferences, and Synods made in that behalfe: they should be resolued at the last of the things they de­sire. But now I come to my wonder, before mentioned: for so I esteeme of it. Cartwright, and the chiefest of those, that haue beene lately in prison, in one of their foresaide examinations in the Starre-chamber, doe plainely auouch it, vppon their oathes: (and so I belieue them) that there [Page 68] are some thinges in theyr saide draught of Discipline, wherein as yet they were neuer resolued. What? Is neither, Geneua, Fraunce, nor Scotland, able to satisfie them? Haue they sought vnto them for theyr opinions: and doe they dis­daine to make them any aunswere? Or else thinke they scorne to aske councell of any men: but had rather, then they woulde so much discredite themselues, dwell still in their doubts? Surely I would be very glad to know what doubts these were, wherein as yet, they were neuer resolued. I haue desired diuerse, to haue told me of them: but they would not. Notwithstanding I will tell you, what I gesse, they were; not at randon (as they say) but vppon some good probability. I met by chaunce with a paper, of no mean mans among them, wherein (as I take it) some of them (at the least) are expressed, and they are these following.

Whether there ought to be Doctors in euery Church?W. F.

Whether the Doctors may administer the sacraments?

Whether there ought to be women Deacons in euery reformed Church?

Whether the Presbitery be not described, too general­ly, obscurely, and very imperfectly?

Whether suspension may be proued by the worde of God?

Whether suspension can be proued to be a censure of the Church?

Whether the Elders ought not to be perpetuall as the Pastors are?

Whether men must stand to the sentence of the greater part of the Consistorie?

Whether mariages and spousals, and things concerning them: doe belong to the ministers?

[Page 69]Whether there should be sureties in Baptisme?

Whether there ought to be no abstaining from, or no­ting of such a one, as for disobedience to the Consistories admonition, is in the way of excommunication?

Vnto these quaerees, I could adde some other if I list. What if Beza himselfe, beginne to doubt, as concerning his Discipline: or at the least beginne to finde some defectes in it? What if he desire to be caput Episcoporum: the head of all Bishops within his prouince? what if hee would haue the presidentship of euery Synode to be a continuall office? But hereof afterwardes in the chapter. In the meane while, I could wishe with all my heart, that those who are wise, would throughly consider, howe this Church of England, and the state of the whole Realme, her Maiestie, the high Court of Parliament, the present forme of our Ecclesiasti­call gouernement with the lawes and orders thereunto ap­pertaining, and generally all her highnesse dutifull and lo­uing subiects haue been vsed, by these so distracted, so pre­sumptuous, and so notorious rash-pates: in that after so ma­ny admonitions, supplications, petitions, deprauations, in­uections, humble motions, draughts, platformes, demon­strations, and what not? (which haue bred alreadie a milli­on, of great inconueniences and mischiefes.) Now being pressed vpon their othes, they are constrained to acknow­ledge, that as yet they are not resolued in all pointes what they woulde haue. If the state had been as rashe in their grauntes, as they haue been shamelesse in their demaunds: peraduenture the Realme and Church of England by this time, might haue been in some such like case, as (if sondry reportes be true) there be some in the world.

It may be heere obiected peraduenture, that suppo­sing the testimony alleadged for the doubtes mentioned, [Page 70] were sufficient: yet they are but about matters of small im­portance: whereas in points of substance they doe all con­curre and are agreed together. Whether the doubts which I shewed vnto you, be of any importance or not: I leaue it to your consideration. Indeede, if a man may say the truth, without their offence, there is nothing which they holde concerning this Allobrogicall deuise, wherein we do with­stand them, that is of any good importance of substance. But for any agreement or resolution in any of the partes of their platforme, whether of substance almost or not of sub­stance, you shall not finde it I assure you amongst them: as in the processe following it wil appeare. And I am of opini­on, that they will disagree euery day more and more: vntil by triall of their former rashnesse, they shalbe contented to embrace the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement in England, and from the bottome of their heartes thanke almightie God for it.

AS I haue said, in the second chapter, if my life lay vppon it, I could not finde, that there was euer in the world, anie such platforme of Discipline, as is now vrged, by the patrones and defenders of it, before maister Caluin deuised it, and with much trouble set it vp, at the last in Geneua. I know it is said nowe a dayes: that it is of a farre greater antiquitie. And if I were not otherwise by rea­ding [Page 71] setled, I might peraduenture be ouercarried that way with their pretences. The Herroldes at armes they say, can do verie much, in a mans pedigree. Though peraduen­ture his Gentilitie be not of fiftie yeares standing: yet if neede require, William Conquerours time is nothing: they will fetch it from Adam. You shall haue the first finder out, Bathes in England: The Book of the Bathes. so gentilized. And euen suche a like course is taken, for the Geneua Discipline. She must needes be a Lady, of an auncient stocke. And therefore her feed Herroldes do take great paines in her behalfe. Such chop­ping and changing: such clayming and disclaiming of kin­reds: such coating, intercoating & quartering of her armes, with this great personage in that countrey, and with ano­ther as great in this countrey: you shall rarely finde (I am verely perswaded) in all the auncient recordes and rules of Herrauldry. To leape ouer a thousand and fiue hundred yeares, at the first skippe, ouer almost two thousand yeares at the next, and in a manner to Noahs Arke at the third: is but a small matter with them. There was neuer poore gen­tlewomans credite more sought to be set foorth: with the smoakie images of her worm-aten auncestors, then hers is. The Geneua platforme to be reckoned so late a deuise, as that maister Caluin should be the first author of it: they can­not abide it.

But I will come to their first skippe: which is in effect, from the yeare aboue mentioned 1541. vnto the Apo­stles time backward. For as I remember I haue read it in one of their bookes: that in all the auncient fathers, you shall finde a little, but as it were of the ruines of it.

But the ruines of it in all the auncient fathers? What lucke had they, that the building of so gorgeous a peece of worke, stoode not in their daies, as now it standeth in Ge­neua, [Page 72] that they might haue seene the bewtie, and the glory of it. If it were so ruinate before the times, wherein the an­cient fathers liued: then surely it will followe (in spite of whosoeuer saith nay) that it is of greater antiquitie, then all the fathers were of. But I maruaile howe it grewe into such ruine, before their times. For (to my vnderstanding) the Apostles times, were next before the time of the aun­cient fathers. The learned discourser, will help vs, for this plunge,Learned dis­course. pag. 7 out of the bryers. The ecclesiasticall offices (saith hee) namely of Pastors, Doctors, Gouernours, and Deacons, were ex­ercised in the primatiue and pure Church, vntill the mysterie of iniquities, (working a way for Antichristes pride and presump­tion,) changed Gods ordinance, &c. And when was that? The mistery of iniquitie began to worke in the Apostles dayes.2. Thes. 2. Was it then? Peraduenture hee meaneth, that immediatly after the Apostles times, there was some age, wherin there liued no ancient fathers: and that then this mischiefe was wrought. I would it had pleased him, to haue deuised such a prouiso, in the behalfe of those most notable men: manie of them very godly and holy Martirs. But the discourser was (as it seemeth) a plain man: he will lay the fault, where it was: as indeed it is reason, that euery man should beare his owne burden. Heare him therefore againe. Our fathers of olde time, Learned disc. pag. 12. were not content with the simple order instituted by Christ, and established by his Apostles: but for better gouer­ning of the Church thought good: some offices to adde thereunto, some to take away, some to alter, and change, and in effect to per­uert and ouerthrow all christian and Ecclesiasticall pollicy, which was builded vppon the foundation of the Prophetes and Apostles, Iesus Christ being the chiefe corner stone. A strange conceite, that all the auncient fathers, should thus conspire, to thrust Christ out of his kingdome: and to ouerthrowe all Chri­stian [Page 73] pollicy. What? not a man amongest them, as lear­ned and as godly affected, as either Caluin, Beza, or this discourser? Not one in those ages that would stand to Christes Discipline? A pittifull case. But I promise you, for my parte: I rather doubt of the discoursers credite in this point: then that I will thinke, there should be such dishonesty, in the auncient Fathers. Nay I durst certain­ly sweare it, that if there had beene any such gouernment of Christ in their daies, they would haue beene as carefull, for the continuance of it, as any of the purest platformers in Christendome.

Trauers in his Booke of Ecclesiasticall Discipline, ma­keth eight degres of the declination of this new pretended regiment: to haue growne before the Councell of Nice: procured (as he saith) cunningly by Sathan:Fol. 140. 141. but yet so, that (as he addeth) there are euidences to be shewed of sondry partes of it, in the writinges of the auncient Fathers &c, and that al­so in this age, pag. 103. it is exercised in Fraunce, the low Countries, and in Scotland. pag. 9. All out of square, from the Apostles times: till Geneua was illuminated. Some blinde euidences there may be found, (he saith) for sundry parts of that Disci­pline: whereby a man may conceaue, that there was once such a thing in being. Wel, yet if that were true, the aunci­ent Fathers deserue some little commendation: in that they were content to leaue some scroules or shiuers of it vnto their posterity. To the same purpose also in another place the same party confesseth, that the ordinary offices (as he tearmeth them) in the Apostles times, pag. 79. haue beene nowe of many yeares out of vse, either in part, or altogether afore the last restoring of the Gospell in this age. A great leap (as I think) from the Apostles time: to this ourage. If I had framed the scope of my second Chapter, after this mans pleasure: [Page 74] I might (as you see) haue safely set it downe with Tra­uerse consent: that from the Apostles times, till maister Cal­uin was fully placed in Geneua, the now pretended order & forme of Ecclesiasticall Discipline, was not to haue beene found in all the world.

Maister Cartwright, though he say in his first Booke, that the Eldership did most florish in Constantines time, pag. 182. and defen­deth the same,pag. 67. in the secōd part of his 2. reply, (sauing that he leaueth out the word most) with such shifting and fals­hood, as I durst make any learned mā iudge of his dealing therein: yet (I say) in his Table to the first part of his se­cond reply, and also in the second part therof: he acknow­ledgeth in effect (to my vnderstanding) that of the Elder­ships declining, there are to be found in the Fathers, but certaine traces and marks, whereby we might come to the know­ledge of it: Ibid. pag. 43. and vnderstand that certaine Churches, (as at A­lexandria) went out of the way. As if he should haue sayd: looke how a man seeketh for a Hare in the snow, and sel­dome findeth her, till he come to her forme: so you must seeke, for the Eldership (as now it is vrged) in the auncient Fathers: still pricking after it: till hauing runne past all them, you come to the forme of it, in the Apostles times. Or, as if he had said: the best vse that a man can haue, ey­ther of the auncient fathers, or of the Ecclesiasticall writers is this, concerning the Geneuian Discipline: that a man by them may learne, when men goe out of their right way, but how to get in againe, when we are once out: if you wil haue any direction for that point: you must either goe to Geneua, or to him, or to some of his fellows. There goeth the Hare away: for the Fathers cannot helpe you.

But belieue me, such is my dulnes, as I doe not wel dis­cerne: how these words of Cartwrights will stand well to­gether, [Page 75] with those of the Elderships flourishing in Constan­tines time: seeing now in the auncient Fathers, we haue so little of it: vz. onely as it were some few markes, traces or footesteps of a thing which had beene, and was gone before their times. For as concerning the state of the Church in Constantines time, there are whole Cart-loads of most pregnant euidences, in the auncient Fathers of it: & yet but traces (as he saith) or empty steps in them, for his Eldership. In effect as if he had saide, the Geneua Discipline flourished most when it was not. One that hath sent vs, a printed Book out of Scotland, taking vppon him to know belike, the mindes of all the Scottishe Ministers, that seeke for the pretended Discipline, as concerning the time, how long they account it, since it was in any good reparation, saith plainely: (not as Cartwright affirmeth, that it flouri­shed most in Constantines time) but thus: we must needs con­fesse in deede, that this gouernement of the Church fell to decaye long before the Councell of Nice. Disco. against R.B. Ser. p. 21. But yet one step further, after maister Cartwrights dubling: where speaking in his second booke of the corruption, (as he tearmeth it) that one Bishop had a preheminēce giuen him aboue other mi­nisters (which he cannot deny to haue been an ordinance in Alexandria from Saint Marks time &c.) he saith: from the first day, wherein this deuise was established, corruption grew in the Church &c. Lib. 2. pa. 569 And the first resistance by any setled Church against that corruption, was by those that abolished that deuise of man, and receaued the order in the Apostles times, touchinge the equality of Ministers: as the Bohemians, Merindols, the Chur­ches in Germany, and Geneua. See, what carieers are here. From Geneua to the Apostles times; and thence backe a­gaine to Geneua at a leape. From Saint Markes time, till the time here limited: the pretended Presbitery with all [Page 76] the complements thereof (as nowe it is vrged) hath lyen alla-mort. No one setled Church, (that is, in Cartwrightes language,) no one particular parish in all the world, for a 1500. yeares, did euer account it vnlawfull for a Bishop to haue authority aboue other Ministers. Or thus: there hath not bin vpō the face of the earth, within the space of a thou sand & fiue hundred yeares, so much as in any one parish, such an equality amongest the Ministers of the worde of God, as is now pretended to be in the Presbitery at Geneua: and so consequently in all that tyme not suche a Presbite­ry. Or thus: within the compasse of the Heauens, there hath not beene one Church for aboue 1500- yeares: that euer dealt so with Bishops, as of late they haue beene dealt withall, especially in Geneua, and in some other such places as haue followed therein the example of that Citty.

Well hitherto then you see, that since we came from Geneua: vz: the yeare 1541. the men themselues that talke so much of their Geneua platforme: cannot finde it flourishing, in the daies of all the auncient fathers, nor in all the world for the space of aboue 1500. yeares. The fa­thers, (alas) some of them were but simple men: some were ambitious, and some were ignoraunt. They poore men had small experience: and lesse pollicie. They wanted iudgement, and zeale: either to discerne, or to keepe in her virginitie, this gallaunt Dalila. They chopped and chaunged, the institution of Christ at their pleasure. Any examples that shall be fet from them: are very dangerous. They were but men. But if you will leape ouer all them, and come to Geneua: there you shall finde wise men, learned men, humble men, zealous men, nay rather Angelles, then men: there you shall see the glorious rankes of Elders, sitting vppon their thrones: the wor­shipfull [Page 77] company of Deacons, attending vpon the con­tributions, the well Disciplined multitude, bringing in the price of their lands and goods, and powring all downe at the Deacons feete: there Christ carrieth hys owne scepter, in Bezaes hand: there this pretended holy Discipline, so disgraced by the fathers, so corrupted and so defaced: there she raigneth, there shee flourisheth, and there she is magnified.The authour of a briefe dis­course of tro­bles in Ger­many. pa. 49. The Church of Geneua (saith a good fellow) is the purest reformed Church (forsooth) in Christen­dome. Againe, Geneua is the chiefest place of true comfort in Earth. Now, what is here said of Geneua, and her Ministers: except you extend it, to all other Churches and Ministers, that follow the Geneua platforme: they will be angry with you, and thinke themselues (as I suppose) to be very great­ly disgraced.

But I will leaue them clawing one of another, and come to the Apostles times: to see if the Geneua Church-gouern­ment, may be found out amongest them. For either there, or no where. The Apostle Saint Iohn liued much longer then any of the rest of the Apostles did. Saint Ierome saith that he liued after Christes passion, threescore & eight yeares. So as the Apostles times, after the largest accompt, are not further to be extended. Now (as Baronius collecteth out of Eusebius) Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria about 19. yeares: and died about the thirtith yeare after Christes ascention. So as Saint Iohn out-liued Saint Marke, some 38. yeares. After this reckoning, if the Church of Alexan­dria should haue departed from Christes institution, and so cleane haue disgraced the glory of this fained Eldership, when there was a Bishop made there; according to Cart­wrightes assertion: then before wee can finde, the Geneua platforme, in such perfection as it is in that Citie: we must [Page 78] cut of the said 19. yeares, (wherein Saint Marke had depar­ted so grossely from Christes ordinance) from the before mentioned 68. yeares, (the full extent of the apostles time:) which being done, you haue but eleuen yeares, wherein there is any hope for the pretended puritie, and practise of the Geneua Discipline, to shadow or shrowd her selfe.

Yea, but where Saint Ierome saith, that there were Bi­shops in Alexandria, Lib. 1. pa. 107. from Saint Markes time, &c. Cart­wright hath this shift: vz: that the wordes from Saint Marks time may be taken exclusiuely, to shut out Saint Marke. Where­by to saue Saint Markes credite, that an Euangelist should not be thought, to haue broken the necke of Christes go­uernement: he woulde haue this great defection, to haue been presently after Saint Markes time: and so hee exclu­deth Saint Marke (after the Geneua fashion) quite and cleane out of his Bishopricke: and will needes suppose, that hee was neuer Bishop, contrary to Saint Ieromes expresse wordes in sondrie places, and contrarie to the full consent and agreement of all the auncient fathers, and of all the ec­clesiasticall histories. But be it, as hee would haue it: yet let the reckoning be newly cast vp againe, and it falleth out, that this supposed departing from Christes institution, was about thirtie and eight yeares, before S. Iohn died. Which standeth hardly with the reputation of the Apostles times in my opinion. But that, is no great matter. We know (saith the authour of the foresaide booke, that was sent vs from Scotland) Diotrephes to haue been in the Church, Page. 21. euen in the A­postles times: and we are assured, he could neuer be gotten out of it, since the first houre, that he set his footing therein. And there­fore we cannot greatly maruaile, though euen in their time, there had been a diuerse gouernment from this of the Lordes appoint­ment, which we labour for. For euen in the Apostles times the [Page 79] mistery of iniquitte beganne to worke. And what? will they say of Saint Iohn the Apostle, and of all the rest of them, that out-liued Saint Marke: as they haue done of all the aunci­ent fathers? was there so small intelligence, amongst those most prouident and wise holy men: that there could be so notorious a defection in Alexandria, so famous a Citie, and they neuer to heare of it? Or shall we thinke, that they heard of it, and conspired together, to ouerthrow Christes institution? It may be said, that peraduenture, they heard of it, and reproued it: but could not reforme it. Very well. But where be then their admonitions, petitions, supplica­tions, and libels against it? Where be their suspensions, ex­communications and giuings ouer to Sathan? Not a word of that abuse, in Saint Iohns Gospell, written after the sup­posed defection? but especially could he haue pretermit­ted such a high point: in the booke of his Reuelations? Or had he so many Reuelations of other matters, of lesse im­portance (forsooth); and was such an ouerthrowe of Christes kingdome, kept from him? The Disciplinarian shiftes in this case, (to make the best of them) can be but slaunderous and desperate.

But to graunt (to all of them) the acceptation of the A­postles times, after the largest accompt: there is (surely) nothing lesse to be found in those times, then the Geneua platforme. For then as particular congregations professed the Gospell: you should haue found a Priest, or minister of the worde and Sacramentes,Tit. 1.5. 2. Tim. sub. besides the iudgement of all the aun- cient fathers. Tit. 1.5. placed in them. In Citties, where there were diuerse such congregations, or where­vnto sondry congregations of the country did appertaine: then you shoulde haue found some Timothy a Bishop to gouerne them. After that diuerse Citties had receaued the Gospell: or some whole Countrey: it was not long, [Page 80] but some Titus was placed as Archbishop ouer them. The twelue Apostles were in those times as twelue Patriarchs, for all the world:Beza annot. Act. 1.2. who planted, directed, visited, commaun­ded, and appointed the foresaid Church gouernours: and what else they thought meet, for the benefit of the church. If I were presently to leaue this life, and should speak what I thought of the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouerne­ment, at this time in the Church of England: I would take it vppon my soule, (so farre as my iudgement serueth me) that it is much more Apostolicall, then any other forme of gouernment, that I know in any other reformed Churche in the world. As for these men, that talke so much of the Apostles times: they are indeede but brablers. Their de­uised regiment, hath not any resemblaunce at all, of that: which was in the Apostles times. They haue peruerted in deede the true meaning of certaine places, both in the scri­ptures and in the auncient fathers, for a shew to serue their turnes, (as after it shall appeare): and other proofes from those times, they haue not any.

But you will say: this is denied. It is so: and of that else-where. Howbeit in the meane while, that cannot hinder my purpose: to search out, the pretended antiqui­ty of it. For it is confessed by them; that the Apostles pra­ctised no other form of Ecclesiasticall gouernment in their times; then Christ himselfe, in his time did ordaine, and assigne vnto them, to be practised afterwards. And what forme was that? Forsooth (they say) it was the very same forme of Church regiment, that was amongest the Iewes: and that Christ, when he said, Dic Ecclesiae, tell the Church, did translate the same, (being called Sanedrim, Councell or Senate) into the Church: to be the onely lawfull gouern­ment thereof, vnto the end of the world. So as here then [Page 81] we must fetch another friske about: to search for the anti­quity of the Iewish Senate.

Maister Caluin, after hee had deuised the Geneua plat­forme, and leapt ouer more then a thousand and fiue hun­dred yeares for the strengthning of it, by those wordes of Christ, tell the Church: vppon occasion, he further saith: that as farre as his auncient records will serue him, the fore­saide Iewish Sanedrim, was deuised by the Iewes, after theyr returne out of captiuity: which was vppon the pointe of fiue hundred yeares before Christ:Calu. in Mat. 18. Scimus &c. wee knowe that from the time, that the Iewes returned out of the captiuitye of Babilon, the censure of manners and of doctrine, was commit­ted, to a chosen Counsell, which they called Sanedrim: in Greeke, [...]. Hoc legitimum fuit, Deoque probatum regimen, &c. This was a lawfull regiment, and allowed of God. And againe, to cutte of all childishe cauilles, how to shift this place: (as that Caluin saith not, that it was then first instituted): the sam e Caluin speaketh hereof more plainely: where intrea­ting of the seuenty Elders, Numbers 2. that were chosen to assist Moyses, he hath these wordes: Certum quidem est. &c. it is very certaine that when the Iewes were returned from the captiuity of Babylon: because it was not lawfull for them to cre­ate a king, they did imitate this example in erecting of their Sa­nedrim. Here is then the time, as plainely set down again, as needeth: vz. after the Captiuity: the cause why they ordained it: vz. because they might haue no King: and the patterne they did imitate: vz. Moyses choosing of se­uenty Elders, to assist him, in his gouernment.

But all this will not yet serue the turne. For besides ma­ny other exceptions, which are taken to Maister Caluins extraction of the Iewes Sanedrim, out of Christs wordes, tell the Church: this is one: that if they will needes inforce [Page 82] such a gouernment vppon the Church, as was amongst the Iewes,: then they meane belike, to wrest from the Prince, the ciuile sword; and to deale themselues in ciuile causes, by their owne authority, which they haue so much con­demned in others, (though they meddle not otherwise with them, then by the Princes appointment): for that the Iewes-sayd gouernment or Sanedrim, had to doe as well in ciuile causes, as in any other that were Ecclesiastical. Their aunswere to this exception is, that in deede the gouerne­ment they speake-of, had to deale in Christs time, with ci­uile causes,Beza de ex. com. pag. 106 107. 108. &c Annot. Mar. 52. de facto, but not de iure: and that the Priests, Iu­daicis rebus confusis, through their pride and ambition, had crastily and corruptly, procured such vnlawfull authority vnto themselues: to the defacing and hinderaunce of the Lordes institution,Bez. ser. cont. Erast. fol. 37 by Moyses at the first. See how they carry vs, from post to piller. Maister Caluin is no body with Beza. Now we must yet further backeward, vz. from the restitution of the Iewes out of Babilon; to Moyses his time: almost a thousand and fiue hundred yeares. Surely mai­ster Caluin, should haue been as well acquainted with Moy­ses doings, as Beza is: for that he hath written Commen­taries, vppon all his fiue Bookes: which Beza hath not. If Caluin in sifting the Text, so painefully as he hath done, cold finde no such matter in Moyses, as Beza pretendeth: it doth greatly preiudice, (in my opinion) his lighter con­ceite.Beza cont. E­rast. fol. 37. But heare his wordes. We must omnia reuocare ad institutionem Domini per Mosem loquentis, vt quid iure fac­tum sit intelligamus: Call euery thing to the institution of the Lorde, speaking by Moyses, if we will haue a true vnderstanding of this gouernement, and of the right authority thereof.

Very well. Here then wee must haue a newe issue. We must set vp (as I said) the Church-gouernement, which the [Page 83] Apostles practised: the Apostles practised the gouerne­ment that Christ appointed: Christ appointed the Iewes Sanedrim, to be in euery parish: the Iewes Sanedrim was corrupted: and therefore we are now sent from Geneua, to Moses: to vnderstand what he wil say vnto vs of this matter. Was there euer any forme of gouernement: that hath had so euill fortune? A gouernement so long since ordayned, not to continue for the time of the law onely, but euen vn­to the worldes end: and neuer to be in such vse, as it ought to haue been, except it were for some eleuen, or some 38. yeares, (and not that neyther,) vntill this our age, that Ge­neua hath refined it? Miranda canunt, sed non credenda poëtae. They tell vs wonders.

But because, wee must be carried so farre: let vs see in­deede, the institution of it. I trust that point will be made most manifest vnto vs. Therefore I would desire to know, where the Lord did institute this their ecclesiasticall Se­nate? The effect of Bezaes aunswere (if I haue iudgement to gather it) is this.Lib. de presb. pag. 103. Iehosophat appointed such a kinde of Se­nate in his time: Mosis proculdubio praescriptum sequutus, fol­lowing (proculdubio) without doubt, the prescript of Moses. And where learned Iehosophat that prescript? Had he it out of Moses written bookes, or by tradition? what? must the be­ginning of this, so singular a regiment, proceed from a tra­dition? But it may be saide, that although it cannot bee shewed in Moses, where or when it was instituted: yet you shall finde in the tenth of Leutticus, the iurisdiction of it plainly set forth:Beza contra. Erast. which argueth manifestly, that there was such a regiment, before that time, instituted by Moses. It is well said. Let vs then see the place. The wordes are these. And the Lord spake to Moses, saying: thou shalt not drinke wine nor strong drinke, thou nor thy sonnes with thee, when yee come [Page 84] into the tabernacle of the congregatiō, Leuit. 10. ver. 8.9.10.11. &c: that ye may put diffe­rence, betweene the holy and the vnholy, and betweene the cleane, and the vncleane, and that ye may teach the children of Israell, all the statutes which the Lord hath commaunded them, by the hand of Moses.Beza de pres­byt. 104. Here (saith maister Beza) Synedrij ecclesiastici iu­risdictio manifestissimis verbis a ciuili distinguitur: the iurisdi­ction of the ecclesiastical Senate is most plainly distinguished from the ciuile. And againe: Dico his paucis verbis declarari, quae­cun (que) tunc erant verè [...] nempe inter sanctum & pro­phanum: inter mundum & immundum discernere, & legem do­mini docere: ac proinde iudicare de controuersijs ob eas causas ex­ortis. I doe affirme it, that in these fewe wordes are set downe, what causes soeuer were in those daies rightly accompted spiritu­all: that is to say, to discerne betweene the holy and vnholy, the cleane and the vncleane, and to teach the law of the Lord.

Of this exposition in another place. We are yet dealing with the pedigree of this gouernment. Heereunto there­fore this is obiected. Let this interpretation go a while as currant: yet heere is no mention of any other, to exercise this iurisdiction, but onely of Aaron and his two sonnes. Where are then their gouerning Elders? What is become of them? How chaunceth it, that they are not mentioned? To this maister Beza, De presbit. pag 102. writing of his ecclesiasticall regi­ment, sayth. Erant Leuitae in Synagogis, penes quos adhibitis, vt probabile est, aliquibus illustribus ciuibus, erat spiritualis admi­nistratio. There were Leuites in euery Synagogue, who hauing ioyned in commission with them, certaine chiefe Citizens, (as it is probable) had the administration of all spirituall causes. And least you should thinke, that maister Beza his probabile est, were no good warrant, to build so great a matter vppon: you shall heare what accompt it carrieth in Geneua.

There came out from thence not long agone, a booke: [Page 85] translated since into English, and printed in Scotland: tear­med, & so interpreted, Propositions and Principles of Diuini­tie. Amongest the which principles (in my latine booke) these are three: vz: It appeareth in Moses booke, that as Mo­ses with his 70.Cap. 86. did exercise his ciuile iurisdiction: so Aaron with his assistants, priestes and Leuites, had chiefe authoritie in the ecclesiasticall: 2. And furthermore, there were amongest the Iews certain men, whom they called capita patrum, the heads of the fathers, &c. quos verisimile est fuisse etiā Synedrij eccle­siastici partes, &c. who were parts (it is likely) of the ecclesiastical Councell. 3. Constat ergo in ecclesia Iudaica fuisse huic ordi­ni ecclesiastico cōstitutos rectores. It is manifest therfore that in the churches of the Iewes, these men were assigned, and ioyned to the said Priestes, and Leuites, to be rulers and gouernors. Ve­risimile est: it is likely: constat ergo: therefore it is manifest. As though a man should reason thus. It is probable, that these men that dare thus abuse the worlde, haue made a shipwracke of their consciences: therefore it is manifest, that they haue done so. Vnto how many kinges, princes, Countries, and states, hath maister Beza written, for the aduauncement of this his pretended gouernement? What petitions, supplications, demonstrations, motions, admo­nitions, discourses, complaints (and I know not what) haue been published amongest vs, in England to the same effect? And is all now come to this point, probabile est? Can Beza himselfe finde no other ground, for his Elders? Doth it depend but vpon likelihoodes and probabilities, by your owne confessions: whether almightie God did euer as yet institute any such gouernment or not?

But to passe by Beza with his probabile est: and to come to maister Cartwright, another manner of fellow. He (it seemeth) doth account maister Beza, to be, but a simple [Page 86] man in respect of himselfe: in that he deemed the Elder­ship to be of no longer continuance, then since Moyses time.T.C. lib. 3. pa. 40. This gouernement (saith he, by the Eldership) was ta­ken from the gouernement of the people of God before the Lawe. And it beganne as soone as there is any mention made of anye fixed forme of a Church, In the table of that book. which standing of diuerse housholdes, were deuided into particular assemblies. Beza is then (you see) deceaued: who said that Moyses did institute the Eldership. It was long (you heare) before his time. Did I not tell you; we should be brought (in effect) to Noahs Arke? But let vs consider of his proofe, that maketh him so peremptory in this point. You shall not finde him so loose I trust: as to dash vs in the teeth with probabile est. Ineuitable demon­strations, or nothing from him. Forsooth (saith he) it is thus written in Exodus 4.Ibidem. So Moises and Aaron went and ga­thered all the Elders of the children of Israell: and Aaron tolde all the wordes which the Lord had spoken to Moyses &c. And what then? Indeede, that would be heard: for as yet, this point runneth harshly. But (saith Cartwright) that these were Ecclesiasticall officers, thereby it may appeare: for that vn­der such a tiraunt, and such oppression, as the Israelites were in, it is altogether vnlike, Ibidem. that they should haue the benefites of Ma­gistrates of their owne. Indeede now he hath won his spurs. In effect all that he saith, is but thus much: It is likely that the Elders he buildeth vppon, were such officers as hee dreameth of. It is likely. It is probable.

Well, I trust the vizards of such maskers will be so throughly weatherbeaten (in short time,) as that the sim­plest will be able, to discerne their deformities. For in this cause assuredly, (they pretending onely probabilities) all probabilities indeede are flatly against them. Is it proba­ble, if Christ had appointed any such gouernment, as they [Page 87] speake of, to haue continued to the end of the world, or if the Apostles themselues had ordayned or practised it, in their times: that all the auncient Martyrs, Councels, and godly Fathers would with one consent haue abolished it? It is probable, Moyses being so carefull, (as it is to another purpose by thē alledged,) that he would not omit to signi­fie vnto his people, euen the smallest matters, that God gaue him in charge, till he came to their basons, besomes, and pinnes about the Tabernacle: that he woulde haue made no mention of such a waighty point, as this is pre­tended to be: if the Lord had euer giuen him commaun­dement for the institution of it?Exod. 18. Numb. 2. Deut. 1. and 16. & 17. Is it likely, Moyses so ofte speaking of the institution of the publicke courts, for Iu­stice and correction of manners amongst the Iewes (which he knew were but to continue vntil the cōming of Christ): that he would haue beene silent, as touching the instituti­on of this spirituall gouernement, which should haue last­ed till the day of iudgement, if he had receaued any such Commission?

To draw therefore to an end of this point. The insti­tution of this pretended gouernment, cannot be shewed out of the old Testament: and then by theyr owne con­fessions (in effect) it may not be vrged out of the new. Be­cause they say, that Christ appointed no other forme of re­giment; then they thought they could haue found to haue beene instituted by Moyses. But my conclusion shal be built vppon one of Vdals demonstratiue propositions:Demonst. 2. cap. 2. vz. That gouernement, whose originall is vnknowen; hath no warrant in Gods word, and is vnlawfull. But the originall of the Geneua platforme of Discipline, is vnknowen: therefore it hath no warrant in Gods word, and is vnlawfull. And thus you see, that (as I sayd in the beginning,) the first time, that e­uer [Page 88] this fained Geneuian deuise saw light (for ought I can read or iudge:) was at Geneua. Whether for my part, I doe remitte it again, to see if they can deduce the pedigree of it, from any further Monuments of antiquity: or that else they may blotte it out, of their now deuised Creede, whereof you shall heare hereafter.

THings for the most part are not long in be­ing, before they haue their names. In that therefore the name of this preten­ded gouernement, is so vncertaine, (as now I shall shew you) it argueth in my opinion, that it is but a counterfaite. The time was not long, after the creation of all kind of cattell, and of the fowles of the Heauen, and of the beastes of the field;Genes. 2. but they were brought to Adam, to giue them theyr names. And I am perswaded, the like course hath still been euer obserued: that in a manner as soone as thinges haue had their being; they haue also had their names giuen thē: or at the least they haue not beene long without them. Let Cartwright then first tell vs here, if he will still relie vppon his likelihood, mentioned in the former Chapter: What was the name of his Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy before the law. But you shall finde him herein as mute as a fish. Mar­ry if you will come to the time of the law, when forsooth as Beza saith it was instituted: then both he, Beza, and di­uerse others will soone satisfie any man, that will not bee [Page 89] wilfull▪ What? will they shew it vs in the old Testament? Surely the chiefest of them haue not yet done it, neyther will they euer be able (as I thinke) to doe it. And therefore they are driuen to seeke it in the Iewes Talmud,Annot. in Mat. 15.3. which is, saith Beza, blasphemus liber, a blasphemous booke.

Would a man haue thought that men so curious to ad­mitte of nothing that is not in the Scriptures; would haue stooped so low: as to the Talmud? I cannot thinke that seeing Almighty God would not suffer the beastes of the earth and fowls of the aire, to be without their names, past two or three daies; that he could be content, that such an excellent creature, as this is pretended to bee, shoulde be without a name so many hundreth yeares; as from Moy­ses time vntill the Iewes Talmud was made. I trust no man will say that Moyses was in this point vnfaithfull, or that the Lorde bringing it vnto him to know how he would call it: he obstinately refused to giue it any name. Peraduenture Moyses a ciuile Magistrate, foreseeing that this regiment was to be placed in euery parish or Synagogue, and that so he himselfe should become subiect vnto it; did seeke to dis­grace it as much as he could, and therefore left it name­lesse. Indeed that is an exception, which the Atturnies for it, in these dayes, doe make in effect against such Christian Princes and magistrates, as doe refuse to admitte it within their dominions.

But to come to the name which they finde in the Tal­mud:T. C. Beza. Caluin. They say it was called amongest the Iewes Sane­drim, a corrupt worde by them vsed: that was degenera­ted from the true Greeke name [...]which Beza doth translate Councell. A strange thing that the Hebrew tong should be so penurious, as that it was not able to afforde an Hebrewe name to suche a worthy regiment: or that [Page 90] it shoulde bee namelesse, vntill the Iewes and the Gretians had such familiar intercourse, as that they eyther coulde or would vouchsafe to borow any thing from them, which (as most men thinke) was not till Alexanders time, or not much before. But straunge or not straunge: be it as it may be. By this doctrine then of the Talmud and maister Be­zaes translation: shall wee tearme this parochiall regi­ment, a Councell, and the Gouernours therein, how ma­nie soeuer, so manie Councellors? Surely this were greatly to the honour of England, and to the benefite of her Maiesties subiectes. For whereas nowe they haue many occasions to come to the Court to their Lordships, for the redresse of manie great enormities: they should haue a Councell table, to repayre vnto, in euerie Par­rishe.

But it will heere bee aunswered peraduenture, that wee may not call it a Councell: For that our Saui­our Christ (minding as they say, to translate the forme of the Iewes ecclesiasticall gouernement, tearmed Sane­drim, from the lawe, to the Gospell) vsed not that name of Councell, but called it ecclesia: that is the Church. Ve­ry well: any thing will content me: Howbeit for ought I know, there was no cause, why it might not haue pleased our sauiour Christ, if he had conceiued so notable a liking of that Iewish platforme: but that hee might, also haue re­tayned the olde name, and so haue made no alteration at all. The authour of the booke of Discipline, hauing, as it should seeme, some such like consideration in his head, or what other I know not: and thinking scorne (as I gesse) to runne to the Iewes Talmud, for a name for this regiment: is not afraid to dissent from Caluin, Beza, his olde tutor Cartwright, and a number of other his good maisters here| [Page 91] in: saying, obseruandum est, vnàcum re ipsa nomen etiam a Iu­daeis ad nos translatum esse. It is heere to be obserued, that to­gether with the thing it selfe, Disc. eccles. pag. 124. the very name also is translated vn­to vs from the Iewes. And what name is that? Forsooth saith he, Nomen. [...](that is congregation, or church): saepius a­pud Mosen certis & delectis viris tribuitur, qui a to [...]a congre­gatione adres obeundas designarentur: is often giuen by Moses vnto a certaine number of chosen men, that were to be appoin­ted by the whole congregation to deale in sundry affaires.

So as by this fellowes saying: Christ made no alterati­on at all, when he said Dic ecclesiae, tell the church: but kept euen the olde name of it, vz: which it had before giuen vnto it by Moses. How blinde then was Beza, Cartwright, and the rest, that they could not finde this proper name of their soueraigntie in all the olde testament:Annot in Math. 16.18. but were faine to flie to the Talmud? But will Beza, thinke you, take this at his handes? No I warrant you.

For saith he: vocabulo ecclesiae significari ciuium conuentum, nemo est qui ignoret, &c. Haebrei [...] vocant. Sed postea com­munis loquendi consuetudo fecit, vt pro eorū caetu accipiatur, qui Christū profitentur. There is no man ignorant that the word ec­clesia doth signifie an assembly of Citizens. The Hebrews do call it an assembly or company met together. But afterward by custome it came to passe, that it was taken for the assembly of them that do professe Christ. Which custome (I hope it will be confessed) did begin about Christes time: and not in Moses time. And then the disciplinarian Trauerser is very well serued for his sawcinesse, in taking vpon him, to proceed further, then his sayd Maisters had giuen him in commission.

But howsoeuer these fellows will agree amongst them­selues: me thinketh a man might be bold (by their place of Mathew) to call their parochiall regiment,Math. 1 [...]. by the name of [Page 92] the church. For they all wil cōfesse: that Christ called it so. And then it will follow by their grounds, that euery parish or church, must haue a newe church erected in it: which new church must haue authoritie to command & censure the old, and so one Church must be ouer another. Yea but (saith Beza in effect) we are rather to follow the apostles, in this point then Christ. That which he called Church, mea­ning the Synedrium, that is Councell: the apostles called pres­byteriū, De excom. pa. 119. Eldership. Quod Christus ecclesiam iam mutato Sy­nagogae vel Synedrij nomine appellarat: Paulus presbyte­rium nominauni. That which Christ called the Church, chan­ging the name of Synagoge or Councell: Paul called Eldership. Againe: quod Iudaei Synedrium, Christiani presbyterium teste Apostolo vocarant. That which the Iewes called Councel: the Christians (as the Apostle witnesseth) called Eldership. And why? Beza would blush, if he could not giue a reason for any thing. Idcirco fortassis, potius quam Synedrium, ne qua pateret calumniandi occasio, Contra Erast. fol 36. quasi Christiani statum publi­cum turbare & de magistratuum authoritate ac iurisdictione quicquam ad se protrahere vellent. The Apostles peraduen­ture called this regiment rather Eldership then Councell, least there might be giuen thereby some occasion of slaundering: as though the christians had purposed to haue troubled the publicke state, and to haue taken to themselues some part of the Magistrates authoritie and iurisdiction.

Well: and are we yet come to an issue, how we may call this forme of gouernement? Shall we tearme it the Elder­ship? No surely: if wee will follow some other reformed Churches, which are so ofte commended vnto vs. Pres­byterium vocare Consistorium apud nos mos est. De excom. pag. 110. It is the maner and fashion with vs at Geneua (saith Beza) to call the Elder­ship a consistorie. With whom agreeth, I.B. the superinten­dent [Page 93] (as it is thought) of the Italian Church in London: say­ing: Although we haue in our churches the same order, which the Apostles ordained: De polit. ciu. & eccle. pag. 170. yet we haue changed the name of Eldership, & do call it now by another name, vz: consistory. And good rea­son. It is so called at Geneua. The Apostles call it Eldership: but yet they dispensing with that point, doe call it, as they list. Men no doubt; of a soueraigne prerogatiue. But to proceede.

It shoulde seeme, that as these men, haue chaunged the name of Eldership into Consistorie: so haue others in some places done it into Synod.Sohnius To: 1. pag. 231. Against both which sort, Banno­sius in his long and tedious disciplinarian discourse, is verie bold to write his minde: that it ought rather to be called El­dership: then eyther Synode or consistory: De pol. ciu. dei, &c. pa. 80 And that for two rea­sons: vz: first because some men do not distinguish sufficiently the assemblies of the christians, from the Synodes of the Iewes: and se­condly, because the Hierarchy of Rome, Ibidem. doth call their presbyte­rium Eldership, consistorium a consistory.

From all these, as I suppose, many of the French Chur­ches: or at the least that of Heidelberge doth dissent. For thus Iunius, Ecclesiasticus lib. 2. cap. 3. lately (a chief Ruler there) writeth. Concilium ecclesiae Senatumue appellamus: quod Paulus presbyte­rium: That which Paul called the Eldership, wee call the coun­cell of the churche or the Senate. and so the Elders there are Senators.. Which names, both of Senate, and Senators (sayth Beza) Vt ciuilibus dignitatibus couuenientius & calumniae obnoxium:De excom. pag. 112. videtur studio quodam vetus pu­rior ecclesia in occidente repudiasse, as being proper to ciuile dignities and subiect to slaunder, the olde purer churche in the West, doth seeme of purpose, to haue reiected. And Banno­sius affirmeth: that the reason that moued those, where hee was, to call the Eldershippe a consistorie, was: quod [Page 94] nomen minus odiosum quam Senatus esset, because it was a name lesse odious, then the name of Senate. You haue heard also before out of Beza, that the Apostles themselues refu­sed the name of Synedrium, as being all one with Councell or Senate, for the same respects: But all this notwithstan­ding, now, (that belike) they thinke themselues in some places, to haue laid such sufficient foundations for the cō ­tinuance of their regiment, as that it shall not be remoued, (what soeuer the Magistrates shall conceaue of it:) they shew themselues in theyr colours, and doe call it plainely a Senate: neither respecting the wisedom which themselues doe ascribe vnto the Apostles, nor the foresayd example of the purer West Churches.

And indeede, although at Geneua, the name of the Con­sistory be most in vse: yet I gesse that Beza, would gladly bring it, to be chaunged, and called a Senate. And I doe partly so thinke, because in his printed Booke of excom­munication: he hath left out the reason, why the Apostles called it not Senate but Eldership: which reason is in his written Booke that Erastus confuted. Besides also, often­times in his notes vppon the new Testament, hee tear­meth the forme of that gouernmēt, by the name of Eccle­siasticall Senate. And namely, where they dreame it was commaunded by Christ in these wordes. Dic Ecclesiae, tell the Church, Constat hic agi de Ecclesiastico Senatu: it is manifest, (saith he) that here Christ speaketh of the Ecclesiasticall Senate. In another place also (he saith) tell the Church, that is the Eldership: De excom. pag. 4.6. and here in effect, tell the Ecclesiasticall Senate. So that (to my vnderstanding) he confoundeth Eldership and Senate; making them both one. Which peraduenture will bring himselfe within the compasse of his own words against Castalion: To translate, Presbyterium, Eldership, Se­natum, [Page 95] a Senate: doth argue a greate vanitye of witte, and is indeede a prophane innouation.

But to let that passe: by hooke or crooke, it must be a Senate,Fenner the­ol. pag. 277. which tickleth and pleaseth some of our refor­mers: insomuch as in their Latine discourses of Discipline. there is little,Disc. Eccl. so. 124. 123. but Ecclesiasticall Senate and Senatours. Chri­stus pro more Iudaeorum Ecclesiam Ecclesiasticum Senatum ap­pellauit. Christ after the custome of the Iewes, called the Eccle­siasticall Senate the Church. Againe: Ecclesiasticall Senate is an assembly of Elders &c. And againe: Cum hic Senatus [...]a Paulo appellatur: Presbyteros esse hos Senatores ne­cesse est. Seeing this Senate is called by Paul an Eldership: it followeth of necessity, Learned disc. pag. 96. 85. that the Elders must be Senatoures. I o­mitte some old English names, which haue beene giuen to this Minion,Iunius. pa. 82. as Congregation, Assembly, Segniory &c. and some Latine names also, as the Epitome of the Church and Diaconia Presbyterorū, Iunius pa. 61. the Deaconship of Elders: because they are now growen (as it seemeth) to bee too base. Eccles. lib. 2. cap. 3. Rather let vs call it with Iunius (if I conceaue his meaning) mater­familias, De excom. pag. 124. the huswife of the Churche in Christes absence: or with Maister Beza, Tribunal Christi, the Tribunall seate of Christ.

But yet, for all these wordes: I greatly doubt it; that such honourable titles will not long be continued. For if Maister Beza his interpretation of Christes speaches, Dic Ec­clesiae, doth proue to be authenticall: then they must be en­forced (in my opinion) to call their gouernement by a name of no great estimation; Annot. Mat. 18.17. amongest those, that professe Christ. Annot. Marc 5.22. For let the place be considered, and hee maketh Christ in effect to say: Tell the Church, that is, tell the Senat, Archisynagogorum, of the Archrulers of the Synagogue: who had the power and iurisdiction, that is there spoken of, in [Page 96] their handes. By which exposition, if Christ had beene pleased to haue spoken properly, without vsing of any fi­gure: when he saide, Tell the Church, he should haue said Tell the Synagogue: and the word Church in that place must needes be so expounded. Whereby it followeth: that (if Christes authority by Bezaes exposition may be regar­ded,) they ought by theyrowne collections and interpre­tations, to call their seuerall Senates, so many Synagogues. Besides:Annot. Mat. 10.17. Maister Beza saith, that Synedrium and Synagogue were both one in Christes iudgement: and there is nothing more reasonable in theyr writings, then to call theyr Senats Sy­nedria: which sheweth, that at the least, they may aswell, by Christs testimony, call them Synagogues if they list.

I would not haue troubled you with this tedious dis­course of the seuerall names of this pretended regiment: but that you might vnderstand, how their tongues are de­uided about such a trifle, and thereby also perceaue, the in­fancy or new birth of this fancy of theirs; in that as yet they are not agreede, howe to name the Childe. If it fall out, that it get the name of Senate: what an honourable stile will this be: Senatus populusque Romanus, the Senate and peo­ple of Sainct Giles in the Fieldes, and so, of all other parishes in England▪

MAister Cartwright, and all his English followers, (that I haue read) doe affirme it moste confi­dently: that by the commaundement of God, [Page 97] by the institution of Christ; by the rules of Gods word; and by the practise, & commandement of the Apostles: There ought of necessitie to be an Eldership in euery Demonst. cap. 10.12, 14. Hay any work pag. 11. T.C. Lib. 2. pag 360. T.C. Lib. 3. pa. 49. parish: in euery Lib. 1. pa. 173 Congregation: Lib. 174. Church by Church: in euery particu­lar ib. 2. pa. 516 Congregation: and not only in Lib. 3. 45. Cities, but in all Churches: in the Lib. 3. Pag. 73 Countrye and vplandish townes wheresoeuer there is a Lib. 3. pag. 46 Demon. ca 12. Pastor: without the which Eldership, euery such church; or Congregation, is to be accounted Mart. iunior thes. 14. maymed, vnperfect, no Dem. cap. 12. entyre body: 10 T.C. lib. 1. pa. 176. want the exercise of the principall offices of charity: to be destitute of no small part of the Gospell of true Religion, of Christs gouernment, of the piller of truth, and of all those priueledges, & profits, which are assigned by them, vnto the enioying of it.

Hereunto, is fit to be added; what they haue further written; concerning this worde, Church, and howe they describe their said Parish. The Church (sayth Cartwright) is eyther taken in the Scriptures for the whole body of the Catho­lique, Lib. 2. pag. 515 church, or for one particular congregation, or for the faythfull company of one house. T.C. Lib. 2. 356. This one particular Con­gregation,Hay any work pag. 11. when it hath an Eldership placed in it; they terme it, the body of one particular Church, and a perfect and vnmaymed body of Christ:Defence of ecclesiasticall gouern. pa. 36. wherein the ministers of the word and the Elders are the eyes; and the Deacons, the handes: with­out the which members, though it may liue a while (they confesse), yet (saie they) it so pineth and wanteth; that in the ende, it will become, a deade corpes vppon the grounde. And for the quantitie of this body the dimensions of it, or the description of such a particular Congregation or Parish,Lib. 2. pag. 360. as they speake of; thus M. Cartwright squareth it out: Euerye competent congregation and particular bodye of a church, should haue hir parts in neighbourhood of dwellings wel trussed one with another. Againe, a Parish well bounded is [Page 98] nothing else, but a number of those families, which dwelling neere together: may haue a commodious resorte, and be at once taught with one mouth. With these points of our English Eldership; I meruell how their associates in other Coun­tries will bee satisfied. By the Discipline in Fraunce, concluded vppon by fiue generall Synodes of the refor­med Churches of that Realme: It was agreed vpon, that request should be made to the Princes and other of the Nobilitie that follow the court, to haue particular Consistories in their pri­uate houses: Cap. 1. Sect. 11 consisting euerie one of a minister; and some of the honestest of their Families. Here, are then Consistories to be erected in the church according to Cartwrightes thirde acceptation of the word church; that is in priuat houses: and likewise a Parish not of many but of one familie. And peraduenture in time, it may so come about, as that this will bee currant doctrine in Englande, not onely for Noblemen, to haue Elderships in their priuate houses, but for Gentlemen likewise. For now it is already gro­en thus farre; that many of both sortes, yea some but meane gentlemē, will haue their seueral ministers: & for comming to their parish churches, though they be hard by their dores, they account it a dishonorable matter: their parlor-seruice, and priuate speaking (as they terme it) pleaseth them best. Sohn. meth. Theo. to. pag. 212. I might here adde, howe D. Sohnius is bolde to dissent from Cartwright: where speakinge of the diuerse significations of the worde church, hee sayth Particularis &c. The particuler church is deuided, and hath her name agreeable to the diuersitye of places, that is Nations, Prouinces, Townes, Parishes, Houses, or Families. For so, there is a church of one Prouince, of one Citie, of one towne, of one house. And so he quoteth many places of scripture, for this his assertion.

[Page 99]But to proceede, Danae. de ec­cles. cap: 10: Danaeus, a man as well learned (for ought is yet seene) as Cartwright is: doth not thinke that by the institution of Christ, there must needes bee an Eldership not onely in euery Citie, but in euery vplan­dish and countrie towne also. For he sayth (if I vnder­stand him) that in the Apostles times, the ruling Elders; (of whom the Eldership is chiefely named) was vsed to be established in vnaquaque tantū ciuitate, in qua erat ampla et populosa ecclesia, et magnus fideliū numerus, In euery city one­ly, where the church was populous. In which citye (hee further addeth) quaeque ciuitatis et ecclesiae pars seu paroecia suū habe­bat presbyterum, Tit 1.5. Act. 14.23 Euery parish had a priest or minister, as the parishes in the countrie had also: oppidatim that is towne by towne a priest: much like to those whom we call in our times Curatores, Curates. Furthermore also: the reforming ministers of Scotlande do account their platforme now in practice there, to be as agreeable to the worde of God, as M. Cartwrightes: and yet (as the Chronicles do re­port) they haue but 52. Elderships in Scotland: & those placed in their chiefest cities and great townes. Vnto euerie of which Elderships (as I am informed) 24. parti­cular churches or parishes (for the most part) do apper­taine: none of them hauing any such particular Elder­ship of their owne, but are ruled, controled, and cen­sured, by those in the sayde cities, or townes; whereunto they are adioyned and subiect.

In the Low countries, it is true; that euerie parish hath her Eldership. But what a kinde of Eldership? Heare a verie learned and a graue man of that countrie: Ruri in pagis &c. In the countrie villages, in some places they haue but a Pastor, one Elder, and a Deacon. In Gaunt euerye parish, likewise had theyr Eldership, consisting of moe or fewer as the [Page 98] [...] [Page 99] [...] [Page 100] quantitie of them were: & besides those, there was a consistorye for the whole citie. All which particular Elderships, in the coun­trye & cities, when any matters of greater momēt fell out, especi­ally for excōmunicatiō; Ea potestas nulli particulari ecclesiae con­cessa est; that power or authoritie is graunted to no particular church, sine concilio et assensu generalis consistorij in magna vr­be, et in pagis et oppidulis colloquij siue classis; without the councel and consent of the generall consistorye in cities, & great townes, & of the conference or classis in the country townes & villages. So as here we find a number of Christs kingdoms set vp: but they want their scepter & power: without the which our men, would not giue a pinne for all the rest. For so they are vnperfect, & maymed bodies of Christ.

But to come to that, which is the patterne of all right church regiment: euen to the Eldership of Geneua. There are in that citie (as I haue heard) foure or fiue great pari­shes, and in the territorie, belonging vnto it, almost 20. and yet for the censuring and guiding of them all, they haue but one Eldership according (as it seemeth) to the Iewish order: there being in Ierusalem but one Sanedrim, & yet many Synagogues. Of the which Geneuian refor­mation,Beza de presb. pag. 102. it may iustly be affirmed (if Cartwright & his fel­lowes with vs say truly): first: that the church of Gene­ua hath neglected the commandement of God, the insti­tution of Christ, the commaundement and practise of the Apostles: in that there is not placed an Eldershippe there in euery parish: & secondly: that the sayd church, being neither the catholicke church, nor one particular parish, nor the faithfull company of one familie, cannot rightly haue so much, as the name of the church, nor be truely termed the well squared bodye of Christ, with all the true dimensions and limites of it. And certaynely [Page 101] there is here no starting hole (as farre as I can discerne) for the excuse of that Reformation and platforme: except it maye bee iustified, that all these foure or fiue and twentie parishes or there aboutes, are so trussed to­gether, that they doe and maie all at once meet in one Congregation, & are taught with one mouth: which to affirme (besides that their practise is otherwise) will bee thought I trust great boldnes, vnlesse they can find a pa­stor with Stentors voyce, who (by report) could make as great a noise as fifty men.

I cannot chuse but put you heere in minde of a poynte in Maister Cartwright, that seemeth verie strange vnto mee. Hee sayth, that there were moe that did externally professe Christ, T.C. lib. 1. Pag 49. in the Apostles times, then there are nowe: insomuch as wee are not nowe the tithe of them: that is the tenth parte. Nowe set these thinges together. The Church in the Scriptures, where it signi­fieth not the Catholique Church, nor one priuate familye, doth signifye one particular congregation: and no moe are rightlye to bee of one congregation, then maye at once bee taught by one mouth. And thereuppon, will it not fol­lowe; that (if the Apostles were as wise as Mayster Cartwright to bounde their Congregations) whereas there is mention in the Scriptures of the Church of Rome:Rom. 16. 1. Cor. 1. Act. 13: Act. 20. of the Church of Corinth: of the Church of Antioche: of the Church of Ephesus, & of the Church of Ierusalem; we must thinke there were no moe christi­ans there, in any one of those Cities; then might at one time heare one preacher? And by that account, there are moe christians within the citie of London, & the suburbs, thé were in al those cities, & twise as many more. Which if M. Cartwright will deny to be true, he must needs cōses [Page 102] for the credit of Scotland or of Geneua at the least, that (of all likelyhood,) as diuers housholdes (by his owne rule) do concurre together to make one conuenient parish: So diuerse parishes in one citie, suburbes, and territorie thereof, may be vnited, and rightlye beare the name of the church. Except wee shall thinke, that Christ refer­ring (as they suppose) his Apostles to the imitation of the Iewes church gouernment, Iosephus. they were so negligent workemen, as (there being at that time 400. Synagogues in that one citie,) they had erected in all their times, but one congregation, christian church, or parish, answera­ble to one Synagoge: it being lawfull for them (by the square of that platforme,) to haue erected, if they had could, 400.

But let this passe (as a thing impertinent) and to re­turne to the maimed & pining Parishes at Geneua. You will say, did not Cartwright know the ecclesiasticall go­uernment of that citie; when he writ his bookes? or shall we once conceaue, that he thought to condemne that regiment: which in other places hee doth so greatly ex­toll? certainly for mine owne part, although I do not greatly respect what he will saie that hee either knoweth or thinketh: yet I suppose he will neuer for shame denie it, but that he misliketh that forme of church regiment. For first besides the premises, being vrged with Caluins authoritie, who thought the church of Geneua, with all her sayde Parishes to make but one body of a church:Lib. 2. pag. 631. his answere to that point in effect is this, Admit Caluin so thought. I am of opinion that if Caluin had not soe thought, hee would neuer haue erected vp such an Eldership. And if Beza, did not thinke so still; I iudge hee would alter it. Secondly also, (vppon another occasion) he resembleth [Page 103] the order of certaine reformed churches (which in this sence must be necessarily either of Scotland, Lib. 2. pa. 596. Flaunders, or Geneua) vnto the custome in S. Ieromes time (when Bishops besides their one onely church, had certaine other congregations belonging to their ouersight,) &c. and in mislike thereof, sayth (for parte of his answere to this pointe, being pres­sed by his aduersary against him), I appeale to the institu­tion of God, and vse of the purer times after the Apostles. But amongst other qualifications which he maketh; least we should thinke, that where such reformations are made, as haue diuers parishes belonging to one Eldership, there the old Diocesse and Bishops are in effect, not ab­rogated, but a little altered, he sayth, that one in such El­dership is aboue the rest, Lib. 2. pa. 631. but for a time, (as Caluin was chosen thereunto, euery two yeares,) and not during his ministerie. Which authority ouer many parishes, but for a time, al­though he will not plainly condemne it, in the reformed churches which hee fauoreth, Lib. 1. pag. 123 yet speaking against the order of the church of England, Lib. 2. pa. 622▪ both he & his compani­ons doe make it a steppe,Defence of ccclesiasticall gouern. pa. 80. whereby Sathan did aduaunce the kingdome of Antichrist.

Lastly, as hitherto you haue found M. Cartwright with his friendes, opposite in this matter vnto Geneua and Scotland; (differing also much from the churches in the Low countries):Pag. 637. so he seemeth to mee, to crosse him­selfe. For in his second booke hee sayth, that particular churches are nowe in steed of Synagogues, and that their Syna­gogues, were the same that our particular churches are. And in his third booke he writeth thus, Lib. 3. pag. 46. For my part I confesse, that there commeth not to my minde, whereby I could precislie conclude out of the olde testament, that there was an eldershippe amongst the Iewes in euery of their Synagogues. If that can| [Page 104] not then be shewed out of Moses (who was so faythfull in setting downe all that was committed to his charge) and that Christ commaunded no new thing, but such as Moses instituted: how hath hee vrged so mightely, that we must haue his Elderships in euery Parish? We shall see peraduenture that in shorte time M. Cartwright will giue ouer this holde, and betake himselfe to the citie consistories, framing new Diocesses, to bee subiect vnto them: as in other countries, you haue heard, they are. Well, I would wishe, that before their Elderships were graunted vnto them: they should agree together, where they ought to place them. But nowe, to the seuerall partes of euery Eldership.

IN the olde testament, the high Priest, besides that he was a figure of Christ, had also vnder Moses, Iosua, the Iud­ges, and Kinges (for the better orde­ring and gouernment of the church,) authoritie and iurisdiction ecclesiasti­call, within that countrie of Canaan, vnder whom for the same purpose were other Priests at least 24. that were called Principes Sacerdotum, Princes of the Priestes; all of them inferior to the high Priest, but superior to the rest. In the new testament, our Sauiour Christ, whilst hee liued on the earth, had his Apostles, and in degree vnder them, his 70. Disciples. After his [Page 105] ascentiō, the same inequality of the ministery of the word; continued in the Church (by all mens confession) as long (at the least) as the Apostles liued. In the Apostles times Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria, Saint Iames was Bishop of Ierusalem, Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus, and Titus was Bishop of Crete: if the ancient fathers, and Eccle­siastical histories be of any credite.

The Apostles hauing receaued the promise of the holy Ghost; after a short time dispersed themselues (by aduise) into diuerse regions. And there by painefull preaching and labouring in the Lords haruest: they planted no doubt ve­ry many Churches. As the number of Christians grew, and had their particular assemblies, and meetings in many Ci­ties and countries within euery one of their circuites: they placed pastors in euery congregation, they ordained cer­taine Apostolicall men, to bee chiefe assisters vnto them: whom they placed, some one in this particular countrey, another in that, and some others in sondry Cities to haue the rule and ouersight vnder them, of the Churches there: and to redresse and supply such wantes as were needefull. And they themselues, (after a while, and as they grewe in age, and escaped the crueltie of tyrantes) remained for the most part in some head Citty within their compasse: to ouersee them all, both Churches, Pastors, and Bishops or Superintendents: and to giue their directions as occasions required, and as they thought it conuenient.

When any, either of these Apostolicall assistantes, or of the Apostles themselues, dyed: there were euer some wor­thy men chosen and appointed to succeede them in those Cities and Countries, where they had remained. For wee may not idlely dreame, that when they dyed, the autho­ritie, which was giuen vnto them, ceased: no more then we [Page 106] may, that the authoritie of Aaron, & of his naturall sons expired and ended with them. Besides it is manifest by all Eccle­siasticall hystories: that many Churches were planted af­ter theyr deathes. And furthermore, it coulde not be, but that some Churches, especially vnder those Apostles, that were soonest put to death, were (when they dyed) in the same case that Crete was, when Titus was sent thither, and had therefore as much neede of a Titus as euer Crete had. Furthermore, who can bee accompted to be well in his wittes, that will imagine, that Christ should ordaine such an authoritie, but for some threescore yeares▪ especially the same causes continuing, why it was first instituted, that were before. Nay I may boldly say: that there was greater neede for the continuance of it afterward. For the Apo­stles hauing so great power to worke myracles, and by their praiers to procure from God such straunge executions of his pleasure vpon the contemptuous, as did fall vpon Ana­nias and his wife, (and I doubt not but in like cases, some­times, vpon some others): their ruling and commaunding authoritie, was not so necessarie then, as it was afterwards, when that power to worke myracles ceased.

But what should I neede to vse many wordes in a mat­ter so apparant▪ After the death of the apostles, and of their assistants: vz: the Bishops placed by them, as is mentioned, the Ecclesiasticall hystories, and the auncient fathers, haue kept the register of their names, that succeeded sundry of them, and ruled the Churches after them, as they before had ruled them. Whereupon they were called from all an­tiquitie: the Apostles and Apostolicall mens successors. This inequalitie in the Ministery of the worde, hath been approued and honoured by all the auncient fathers (none excepted): by all the generall Councelles, that euer were [Page 107] held in Christendome: and by all other men of learning (that euer I heard of) for many hundred yeares after the Apostles time: sauing that Aerius the hereticke, an ambi­tious person, growing into great rage, for that hee missed of a Bishopricke, which he sued for: first broached the o­pinion, which is nowe so currant amongest his Schollers: that there ought to bee no difference betweene a Bishoppe and a Priest. Epiph. Whereby he tooke vppon him, to be equall with the Byshop, that preuailed in the said suite against him: & cha­lenged to haue as great authoritie, he being but a Priest, as the other had, being a Bishop.

In this latter age of the worlde, when after a long darke­nesse, it pleased almightie God to restore vnto vs, the light of his Gospell: the chiefe instruments that God then vsed, and adorned with most singular giftes, for such a mightie worke, were very farre from that conceite, [...]and rashe pre­sumption, which afterwardes possessed certaine persons of Aerius humour, and yet doth boyle in many of theyr followers breastes. It is true, that many thinges are to bee found in their writings, which (at the first shew) do make very greatly against Bishops. But diuerse persons in these dayes, not well considering the circumstances of those times: doe greatly abuse the world, in extending them fur­ther, then they meant them. It was farre from their intent that those thinges which they had written against Po­pish Bishops (the ennemies of the Gospell): should euer haue bene vrged, against such Bishops as did willingly em­brace it. I will acquaint you a little with the proceedings of those times: and then leaue this point to your wise consi­deration.

When the said learned men beganne to seeke the refor­mation of Religion in Germany, it is not vnknowen vnto [Page 108] you, into what subiection the Pope had brought all Chri­stian Princes and states. The Bishops as his vassals, did then wholly depend vppon him. They held their Bishoprickes by his authoritie: and nothing coulde be done, especially in Church matters, but by the Pope and them. So as when Luther and the rest beganne to disclose the enormities of Popery, and desired some godly reformation of them: you may easily conceiue (the Pope and his Bishops being the chiefe maintainers of that corruption) what little in­couragement they found at their handes. It is euident in their writinges, howe earnestly and humbly at the first they dealth both with the Pope and with many other of the chiefest Bishops: that they would be content and pleased to reforme such thinges as they found to bee amisse in the Church. But all their indeuours to that purpose, were in vain. The Pope and his Clergy, stood too much vpon their reputation. If they should haue yealded, they imagined the world would haue condemned them: in that they had not in time, of themselues, preuented or redressed so notable a­buses. Whereupon Luther & those learned men that ioyned with him, were driuen to flie vnto the Ciuil magistrates, & to aduertise them of their dueties, prouing it vnto them most plentifully out of the scriptures, that in such an obsti­nate defection amongst the priests, it appertained vnto thē, (euery one within their owne free states and territories) to reforme religion themselues: as the godly kings in the old testamēt had done in the like cases. And the rather to moue them thereunto, they laboured by al the means they could, to make the Popish Clergy most odious vnto them. They inueighed against their pride, against their superfluities, against their tyranny, and against their corruptions. After much paines taking to these and the like effectes, it pleased [Page 109] God to moue the hearts of many of the ciuile magistrates, to thinke better of their duties, & plainly to perceiue, how the Pope and his Bishops had formerly abused them. The godly kings and magistrates in the scriptures, whē they re­formed religion, were euer most carefull, that the liuinges appointed by God for the Priests, might be throughly pre­serued. If any by abuse had bin alienated: they caused them to be restored againe. And so I suppose the ciuile magi­strates, should haue done in this latter age. But it hath faln out otherwise: and all the other godly learned men in chri­stendome, do mislike it. The perswasions to Princes that the Bishops and Abbots had too much: was very plausible. The free Cities, notwithstanding their freedom in respect of the Emperor, yet they were subiect all of them vnto Bi­shops: & were not discontented, that so good an occasion was offred vnto thē, to procure their greater liberty. Luther and the rest of those learned men regarding nothing, but that the light of the gospel might be restored: were content to yeald much, & to beare (against their minds) with many vnequall conditions. So as at the last: by their wisdome and diligence, they preuailed. God moued the hearts of diuers ciuile magistrates: to begin a reformation. The Pope, the Bishops, and the chiefest of the Cleargy impugned it, by all the meanes they could possibly. Whereupon, there be­ing no other remedie, their authoritie imployed to hinder those proceedinges, was reiected: and the most of their li­uings (which they had in any of those territories) were sea­zed into the hands of the ciuile gouernors there. vpon these & many such like occasions, great trobles did arise. The bi­shops, thoght thēselues greatly iniuried. Diuers great prin­ces, took their parts: & so did the Emperor. They misliked the reformatiō; which was proceeded in, after that sort: the [Page 100] authoritye of Bb^s. was greatly insisted vpon. Insomuch as, (notwithstāding that the sayd learned men had offered in the beginning to the Bishops, to performe al due obedience vnto them, if they would be content to reforme religion) they were now againe constrained, to make the same kno­wen more generally, both to the Emperour, and to all the sayd Princes; still offering for their parts, as much as they had done before, and that if they would but cease, to im­pose vppon them their intollerable burdens, of single life: of mens vnlawfull and wicked traditions, (which they did further specifie): and to forbidde them to doe those things which God commaunded, they should doe: that then, they would with all their hearts most willingly yeeld vnto their Episcopall iurisdiction, and to the restoring of the same, where it had beene abolished. Vouchsafe (I pray you) to heare their owne testimonies, to this purpose. You shall thereby well perceaue, that if, they were now aliue in England, and should finde their names so vsed as they are, against the gouernment of our Bishops: they would take it in very ill part, and be heartily sory for it. Thus the au­thors of the Augustane confession, and all the learned men that haue subscribed thereunto, (in which nūber Cal­uin is cōprehended,) haue professed touching this matter.

The Bishops might easily retain the obedience due vnto them: [...]sto. conf. August. per Chytr: p. 109 if they vrged vs not to keepe those traditions, which wee cannot keepe with a good Conscience. They impose a single life, and will receaue none that will not swear, neuer to teach the pure doctrine of the Gospell.

Apol. conf. Augu. Ibi. 363 Againe we haue ofte protested, that we doe greatly approoue the Ecclesiastical pollicy and degrees in the Church, & as much as lieth in vs, doe desire to conserue them. We doe not mislike the authoritie of Bishops: so that they would not [Page 111] compell vs to doe against Gods commaundement. Fur­thermore; Apol. conf. August. per Pap. pag. 137. we doe here protest, and wee would haue it so recor­ded, that we would willingly preserue the Ecclesiasticall and Ca­nonicall pollicy: if the Bishops would cease to tyrannise ouer our Churches. This our minde or desire, shall excuse vs with all poste­rity: both before God and all nations, that it may not be imputed vnto vs, that the authority of Bishops is ouerthrowen by vs.

Besides:Ibid. pa 305. I would to God (saith Melanchthon) I woulde to God, it lay in me to restore the gouernment of Bishops. For I see what a manner of Church we shall haue: the Ecclesiasticall pol­licy being dissolued. Video postea multo intolerabiliorem futu­ram tyrannidem, quàm antea vnquam fuit: I doe see that here­after will grow vp a greater tiranny in the Church, then euer there was before.

Moreouer: Erasmus Eb­nerus. Hier. Ebnero ibid. pag. 310. mira dissipatio erit Ecclesiarum ad posteritatem &c. There will be a wonderfull confusion of Churches left to our posterity: except they may now bee ioyned together againe, and haue certain Bishops who may be enforced to gouerne the church, and looke vnto them more diligently then in times past they haue beene looked vnto. Againe: by what right or law may we dis­solve the Ecclesiasticall pollicy:Melan. to Ca­merarius in Hist. con. Au­gust. per Chytr. p. 389. if the Bishops will grant vs that, that in reason they ought to graunt▪ Et vt liceat, certe non expe­dit. And if it were lawfull for vs so to doe, yet surely it were not expedient. Luther was euer of this opinion: whom many for no other cause I see doe loue, but for that they thinke they haue cast off their Bishops by means of him, and haue obtained a liberty, mi­nimè vtilem ad posteritatem, which will not be profitable for our posterity. For tell me what estate will the Churches be in hereaf­ter: if all the olde orders be abolished, and that there bee no cer­taine rulers ordained?

To the same effect also saith George Prince Anhalt, Earle of Ascaine Lord of Sewest and Brewburge: vtinam &c. I [Page 112] would to God that those which carry the names and titles of Bish­ops,Conciones Geor. Princ. Anhalt. fo. 61 would shew themselues to be Bishops in deede. I wishe they would teach nothing that is disagreeable to the Gospell, but rule their Churches thereby. O quam libenter, &c. Oh how willingly, and with what ioy of hart would we receaue them for our Bishops, reuerence them, obay them, and yeeld vnto them their iurisdicti­on and ordination &c. Id quod nos semper, & Dominus Luthe­rus etiam &c: which we alwaies and Maister Luther both in words and in his writings very often haue professed.

And Caluin himselfe writing to Cardinal Sadolet, con­cerning the course that had beene held at Geneua, (as tou­ching the reformation of Religion and in excuse thereof a­gainst his challenge) doth shew himselfe to be of the same minde he was of, when he subscribed to the said confessi­on of Augusta: professing that for his part he could haue beene well content, that the Bishop there should haue kept his authority and iurisdiction still, so that he woulde haue yeelded to the bannishment of Poperye. For thus hee writeth.Cal. to Sadol. Talem nobis Hierarchiam si exhibeant &c. If they bring vnto vs such an Hierarchy, or Priestly gouernment, wher­in the Bishops shall so rule, as that they refuse not to submit them­selues to Christ, that they so depend vppon him as theyr only head, and be content to referre themselues to him: in which Priestlye gouernment, let them so keepe brotherly society amongest them­selues, that they be knitte together by no other rule then by the truth: then surely if there shall be any, that shall not submitte themselues to that Hierarchy or Priestly gouernment reuerent­ly, and with the greatest obedience that may be: I confesse there is no kinde of Anathema or curse, or casting to the diuell, whereof they are not worthy.

And againe in the same Epistle, he vseth these wordes following: tending to the great commendation of the au­thority [Page 113] of Bishops. Statue quaeso, &c. Sette before your eyes (I pray you) the ancient face of the church, as it was amongest the Grecians in Chrys. and Basils times: and as it was amongest the Latinists, when Cyprian, Ambrose and Augustine liued: and then behold the ruins of that face, as now they are retained in the Church of Rome. And there will appeare as great difference betweene them, as the Prophets describe vnto vs, betweene the excellent estate of the Church that flourished vnder Dauid and Salomon, and that Church which in Zedechia and Ioachims dates was fallen into all kinde of superstition, and had defiled al­together the purity of the worship of God.

This Epistle was written by Caluin to the Cardinal 1539. at such time as being remoued from Geneua, he remayned at Strasburgh: where hauing great acquaintance with Me­lanchthon, Beza in vi [...] Caluin. Bucer, and diuerse other learned men, hee car­ried himselfe in such sort, as was greatly to their likings. In­somuch as whilest he remained at Strasburgh, Bucerusinter Epist. Calu. 27. and 28. the Colloquies at Wormes and Ratisbone, being appointed by the Emperour for the compounding of controuersies in Religion: the learned men that were sent thither, for the Protestants, rec­konned Caluin a meete man to take thither with them. Which I thought good to obserue, because hereby it will further appeare: what minde and iudgement Caluin still carried concerning Bishops; so as they would admit the re­formation of Religion: contrary to Cartwrights shameles assertion,T.C. l. 1. p. 11 [...] that Caluin would haue shakē at the name of an Arch­bishop: and haue trembled at the office of a Bishop. For in the articles agreede vppon at that time by the saide learned men, (Caluin being amongest them) for a reconciliation in the behalfe of the Protestants: thus they declared theyr iudgements of this matter.Arti. protest. cap de vnit. Ecclesiae. Vt omnia ordine fierent in Eccle­sia &c. That all things might be done orderly in the Church ac­cording [Page 114] to S. Pauls rule &c. For the auiding of Schismes, there was a profitable ordination, that a Bishop should be chosen out of many Priests: who should rule the Church by teaching the Gospel, and by retaining the Discipline: & qui praeesset ipsis Presbyteris, and who should gouerne the Priestes themselues. Afterward also there were degrees made of Archbishops, & aboue them of Patri­arches, &c. These ordinations (if those that gouerne do theyr du­ty) as preach, ouersee the doctrine and manners of their Chur­ches, correct errors and vice, practise Ecclesiasticall censures, &c. Resp. protest. are profitable to preserue the vnity of the Church. And a­gaine in their additions to the sayde Articles. As concer­ning ordination, we especially approoue the auncient custome of the Church: that those, that are to be ordained, should first bee tried, instructed, and vppon the publicke testimony of some god­ly and learned men, &c. admitted into the Ministery. This difficult and necessary charge for the Church, it is to bee wished (reformatiō being made) that the Bishops would take vpon them. And we heare that our learned men haue expressely so yeelded ordination vnto those Bishops, si praecedat reformatio, if first there may be a reformation. Likewise also in another trea­tise that was then made by Maister Bucer, with the aduise of the said learned men, De refor. ad­uer. Eccles. p. 95. and offered to the Emperour: it is thus written. Annitendum est &c. We must indeuour, that that forme and distribution of Ecclesiasticall gouernement, which the Cannons doe prescribe to Bishops and Metropolitanes, be resto­red and kept. And after in the same Treatise. Concerning names and titles, and all those things, wherewithall that exter­nall power and dignity ought to be adorned and established, and the lawfull obedience of such as be vnder them confirmed: it will easily be agreed vpon.

Much more passed in those Colloquies and treatises to this purpose: Caluin himselfe as it hath beene sayd being then [Page 115] present, and in company whith those learned men. And the reasons that moued them so to offer, agree, and protest at that time in this behalfe, I thinke (besides the former rea­sons mentioned) were these, and such like: which Bucer (a principall man then amongest them) hath else-where sette down: When speaking of Bishops and Metropolitanes and of their authoritye ouer the Churches, and ministers within their Dioces and Prouinces, hee saith thus. Hoc consentiebat legi Christs, Bucer de vit. & vsu minist. pag. 565 fiebat (que) ex iure corporis Christi. This was agreeable to the law of Christ, and was done by the authority of the body of Christ. And in another place.Buc. de regu. Christi pa. 67 I am ex perpetua &c. Now by the perpetuall obsexuation of all Churches euen from the Apostles times, we doe see: that it seemed good to the holy Ghost, that a­mongest Priests to whom the procuration of Churches, was chiefly cōmitted, there should be one, that should haue the care or charge of diuerse Churches, and the whole Ministery committed vnto him: and by reason of that charge he was aboue the rest, and ther­fore the name of Bishop was attributed peculiarly vnto these chief rulers of Churches. Nay he goeth further and sayth: that in the Apostles times one of the Priests or Pastors was chosen and or­dained to be the Captaine and Prelate ouer the rest:Buc. de cura [...]ura [...]. p. 251. who went be­fore the rest, and had the cure of Soules, and the administration of the Episcopall office, especially in the highest degree. And this he proueth by the example of S. Iames Act 15. & after con­cludeth in this sort. The like ordination hath beene perpetually obserued in other Churches likewise as farre as we may learne out of all the Ecclesiasticall histories, and the most auncient Fathers, as Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, Eusebius and others.

Hereby then it may appear vnto you, what was thought of Bishops & of their authority by the learned men of those times: who sought as narrowly into that calling, what was lawfull, and what was vnlawfull, and were aswell a­ble [Page 116] to iudge thereof: (I may speake it I trust without of­fence) as either Carwright or all his complices. There were some busie bodies indeede a little before or about the time of the Colloquies mētioned, who were very angry with the sayd learned men, & especially with Melanchthon, for yeel­ding so much concerning Bishops. Of whom he himselfe writeth in this sort.Melan. to Ca­merar. hist, conf. August. per Chytr. pa. 304. Hoc malè habet scilicet quosdam immode­ratiores &c. This forsooth doth anger some immoder at men: that the iurisdiction and pollicy Ecclesiastical is restored: interpreting the same to be the restitution of the Romish souerainty. And thus also to Luther:Mel. to Luth. Ibid. pa. 306 you do not belieue into what hatred I am growen with them of Noricum, and with certain others: for the restituti­on of iurisdiction vnto Bishops. Ita de regno suo, non de Euangelio dimicant socij nostri. Our fellowes doe so fight for their own king­dome, and not for the Gospell. Camerarius to the same purpose in like maner maketh this report. Camer. in vit. Phillip. Audiui quosdā &c. I haue heard some accuse Phillip in that respect, inhumanissimè, most barba­rously, when one of them said: that if he had beene hired with a great summe of money by the Romane faction to haue defended their state, he could not (in his opinion) haue dealt more effectu­ally for them, then he did in maintaining of Bishops: and that Phillip was not to be accounted a Patrone of his owne part, but of his aduersaries, and that a chiefe and a singular Patrone &c. These things & diuers other more slanderous they vttered with­out shame: quorum magnopere postea paenituit & puduit plae­ros (que): Whereof many afterwards repented and were ashamed of them. But notwithstanding all these and such like slaunde­rous hare-braines; the grauer sort, the best learned, the godliest, and the wisest men amongest the Protestants, that then liued: did follow and proceede as Phillip had begun, euen accordingly as before I haue mentioned.

And since that time (for any thing I can find to the con­trary) [Page 117] although the bishops (still cleauing to the Pope, and opposing themselues against all kinde of reformation, fur­ther then it pleased them): were thereupon euen of neces­sitie reiected (as before I haue signified): yet as soone as the saide learned men grewe to be able to establish their chur­ches, in any reasonable maner, they ordained amongest themselues the very same offices in effect, throughout the most of the reformed Churches in Germanie, Obseruat. chaunging onely the old Greeke names (as Zanchius reporteth) of Archbi­shops and Bishops into new and worse Latine names of superinten­dentes, and generall superintendentes, Erneste the Duke of Brunswick, Ernest. Regius in vit. Vrbani Rhegij. presently after the assembly of Augusta, procured Vrbanus Regius to go home with him: & ecclesiarum in toto Ducatu Episcoparum ipsius gubernationi permisit: and cōmitted vnto his gouernment the Bishopricke, Geor. Anhalt. pag. 611. or superintendencie of all the Churches within his Dukedome One Sydonius being thrust (as it seemeth) from the Bishopricke of Mersenburge, (as cleauing wholly to Popery), was afterwardes (vppon his leauing of the Pope, and vpon promise made to main­taine the reformation of religion, made in his absence, restored to his bishopricke.Geor. Anhalt. pag. 60. And after him succeeded (as I take it in that bishopricke) George the Prince Anhalt before mentioned: being chosen thereunto as hee saith himselfe, vniuerso capitali consensu, by the consent of the whole chapter. He had been brought vp in learning, and was at the time of the saide election,In operib. Geor. Anhal [...]. pag. 630. a Priest or Cannon in the Cathedrall Church of Mersenburge. Of whom being bishop Henricus Stenius saith: règebat ecclesias in Mersenburgensi diocaesi: hee ruled the Churches in the dioces of Mersenburge. And againe: praesuit ecclesijs vniuersae ditionis Mysorum: he gouerned the Churches of all the dominion of Mysya.

Agreeable aswell to these examples, as to the saying of [Page 118] Zanchius before specified, is that which Ia: Haerbrandus a verie learned man, and in his time Diuinitie reader of Tubinge, Ia. Haerb. loc. com. pa. 699. writeth in his common places: Debent gradus esse, &c. There ought to be degrees amongest Ministers, &c. as with vs in the Duchy of Wirtenberge, there are subdeacons, Dea­cons, Pastors, special superintendentes, and ouer them generall superintendentes. And in another place the same Haerbrand shewing his iudgement generally: Loco de eccl. pag. 699. Saluberrimum esset, &c. It were a most profitable order for the welfare of the Church: if euery particular prouince had her Bishoppes, and the Bishops their Archbishop. And Iacobus Andreas, hee is muche of the same opinion (as certaine Ministers of Heidelberge doe reporte) vz: Epist. contr. minist. Hei­del. pag. 8. where hee saith: that it is a difficult matter to defend the peaceable estate of Churches except there be some chiefe ruler and Byshop amongest them, to whome rerum sum­ma deferatur, the full ordering of matters, may be referred.

To this purpose in like sorte, Osiander writeth: euen as though he had spoken of the Church of England. Loc. com. cap. 10: Al­though in the Primitiue church (when she flourished with myra­cles) there were diuers degrees and orders of Ministers: some A­postles: some Prophets, some Euangelistes, and some Pastors and Doctors: yet as now the state of the Church is, the Ministers may be deuided into three orders or degrees: vz: Deacons, Pastors, and Superintendentes, &c. To the Pastors particular Churches are committed: Nec dubitatur, &c. and it is not doubted, but that euery one of them, may rule the Church committed vnto him, sine collegae concilio, without the Councell of any fellow. Those pastors we call superintendents, who are so set ouer other pa­stors; that they may visite the state of their Churches, and punish both the Pastors and the people, if any thing be done amisse: or if any thing fall out that they cannot correct, then they referre it vnto a higher court, consisting of deuines and politick men, who by [Page 119] the ciuile Magistrates authoritie, or approbation, doe amend such defects, &c.

Hemingius also affirmeth:Iust. deguber. eccle. that there are dispares dignitatis gradus in the ministery, & that partly by the law of Cod, & partly by the approbation of the Church: that as Christ ascending into heauen: gaue gifts vnto men: Apostles, Prophets, Euangelists, do­ctors, and pastors: so he gaue to the Church authoritie for edifica­tion: that the Church by vertue of that power ordained ministers for her profite: that the purer churches following the Apostles times, ordained some Patriarchs, some Bishops, &c. some Pastors, and some Catechists, &c. That the reformed Churches, haue their Bishops, doctors, Pastors, and vnder them chaplains (we call them cur [...]tes, as I thinke): That the Churches in Denmarke, doe ac­knowledge degrees of dignitie amongst Ministers: that they iudge it meet, that other Ministers should obey their Bishops in althings which tend to the edification of the church according to the word of God, & the profitable gouernment of the Church: and that they iudge Bb^s. to haue authoritie ouer other Ministers of the church, ius non despoticum, sed patrium. Ieremia Hombergus a worthy man in the Churches of God about Styria, Carinthia, and Carniola; but now remoued thence through the persecuti­on, which the Iesuits haue kindled in those parts: affirmeth in his commō places of diuinitie, reuiewed & allowed at Ratisbone with very direct termes:De ministerio that God himselfe hath ap­pointed degrees of ministers in the church, euen amongest those which haue a mediate calling: vt concordia inter ministros cōser­uetur, &c. that concord amongst ministers might be preserued, & the workes of their ministery performed more easily, and more de­cently. And after he hath specified the common duties both of Bishops and ministers: he setteth down those, which he thinketh are peculiar to Bishops, and to bee executed by them, vz: excommunication, ordination, and confirmation.

[Page 120]And with him agreeth the Diuinitie reader at Lauinge, Phill. Haylbronner: De minister. eccle. writing vpon the first Epistle of S. Paul to Timothy. Where he sheweth that the Apostle appointed Timothy to be Bishop of Ephesus: that accordingly, there are and ought to be degrees and orders of ministers of the Church: & hauing described the common duties likewise of all mini­sters generally, he saith thus. Episcopus, &c. Besides the said common offices, to Bishops was commended the publicke ouer­sight and gouernment: so as it belonged to them to appoint fit mi­nisters for the churches neere them: also to heare the accusations and complaints which are made against the Pastors of theyr chur­ches, and to decide them, &c. Sic enim Paulus scribit Timo­theo Ephesorum Episcopo: for so Paul writeth to the Bishop of E­phesus: lay thy hands rashly vppon no man, and against a Priest admit not an accusation, &c.

Of the same iudgement in like sort is Egidius Hunius, the diuinitie professor, at Marpurge, in his commentarie vpon S. Pauls Epistle to Titus. He affirmeth: that, the Apostle ap­pointed Titus, the generall superintendent for the gouernement ouer the Churches of that large and noble Iland of Crete: that his dutie was to ordaine Pastors in euery parish, and likewise to make Bishops: that the Bishop or superintendent hath his dioces, the Pastor his parishe or church: as Paule commaunded Titus to place priestes in euery parish: That thereby, it appeareth God doth require, that there should bee orders and degrees amongest Ministers, vt alij praesint, alij subsint: that some may rule, and some obey: that this order is not newly deuised, but receaued in the church from the Apostles times: and that God himselfe made a distinction betweene Ministers, and appointed de­grees, according to that hee gaue some Apostles, some Prophets, some Euangelistes, some Pastors, and Doctors, for the repayring of the Saintes for the worke and the Ministerie, and for the [Page 121] edification of the body of Christ. And againe, vppon these wordes: A Bishop must be vnreproueable &c. hee meeteth with the common obiection, for the equalitie of Mini­sters, because euery Minister is called a Bishope some­times in the Scriptures: and sayth: that the word Bishoppe notwithstanding it be oftentimes vsed by S. Paule for euery pa­stor of the church of God: who haue a kinde of ouersight ouer theyr seuerall charges, and so may suo modo after a sort bee called Superintendents and Bishops &c. yet heere it signifieth [...] Primarios illos ecclesiarum pastores &c. Those chiefe pastors to whom the ouersight of the liues and manners of the other ministers is committed, whom according to the force of the Greeke appellation, we in these dayes do call Superintendents.

Hitherto then, it appeareth (as I take it) what is both the practise of the reformed Churches in Germany, and the iudgemēt also of the chiefe learned men there, since Melanchthon & Bucers times: concerning Bishops or Su­perintendents, with their preheminence, charge, and au­thoritie. Some there are, indeed, beyond the seas, who (followinge the immoderate, proude, and slaunde­rous humor that Melanchthon & Camerarius spake of be­fore) haue vttered their great mislike of the Germaine Superintendents; and that with lesse modestie a great deale, then doth well become them. In reproofe of one of them, Gerlachius a learned man of Tubing writeth in this sort. Ger. in hype­ras. Dan. p. 30. Licet titulos ordinum &c. Although thou be­holdest with disdaine (as it were from aboue) the titles of orders; after the fashion of hypocrites, and of the Anabaptistes: yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge & foolish arrogancye, whereby thou contemnest our countrymen in respect of thy selfe, and dost chalenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely: Plus turges quàm omnes Doctores et Superintenden­tes [Page 122] nostri: Thou swellest more with pride then all our Do­ctors, and Superintendents. And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of ministers, as though it were not lawfull to ordayne such degrees for the building and gouernment of the Church? Did not God himselfe in the old Testament appoint a chiefe Bishop, Priests, and Leuits? And in the new Testament gaue hee not some Apostles, some Prophets, some Euangelists, and some Pastors, and Doctors? Had not the primatiue church accordingly: Bishops, Priestes, and Deacons? And againe, a little after in the same booke: whilest thou a proude man girdest so often at the title of Superintendent:Iud. Numb: 16. I affirme that thou reprehendest the Apostle Paule himselfe, who hath giuen this name to a distinct order of ministers of the church. And our Auncestors follo­wing this Apostle haue thought it meete, that for the edifying of the church, and for orders sake; there should be certaine Su­perintendentes, that is, ouerseers not onely of the flocke, but of the nisters in like manner.

Thus farre Gerlachius: who if hee were in England & knewe into what an extremitie the like persons, are gro­wen vnto in the same case amongst vs: It would perad­uenture moue him. For nowe there is no remedye, with our ministers of that consorte: but they must all bee equall. They cannot endure it, (no the meanest of them) to haue anye of their owne coate, their Supe­rior. They are fallen into the contradiction of Chors, and doe tell both Moyses and Aaron, that they take to much vpon them. All Pastores (saye they) are and ought to be of equall authoritie in their seuerall Parishes, and no one to haue power ouer another. Euery parish Priest with them; must bee a Bishop: and haue as full iurisdiction in his Parochiall dioces, as it is lawful for any Bishop in the [Page 123] world either to haue or to execute. For orders sake they are content, that in their Classicall, prouinciall, or Natio­nall assemblies, some one minister bee chosen from a­mongst thēselues: to be the moderator for the propoun­ding of matters & gathering of voices &c. But his office & preheminence, is to continew no longer, then whilest those assemblies last. Otherwise or for any further au­thoritie either of Bishops, or Archbishops (whether they haue abolished popery, reformed religiō, maintained the gospell, abandoned superstitiō, or whatsoeuer they haue done, or yealded vnto,) they holde it altogether vnlaw­full: & do raile against them all, & against their callings, and against all that defend them, and that with more then heathenish scurrilitie.

Cartwright is the chiefe man,T C. lib. 2. pag. 438. that began this course in Englande; and you shall see howe pretily his schollers follow him.T. C. lib. 2. pag. 485. Archbishops & Bishops (sayth he) are new ministeries, T. B. lib. 1 p. 82 & 85. neuer ordayned by God. The first step to this kind of Bishopricke beganne at Alexandria, and not at Syon. The name and office of an Archbishop is vnlawfull, his function is of the earth, and so can do no good but much harme in the church: he is a knobbe or some lumpe of flesh: Dem. mart. &c which being no member of the body doth burthen it and disgrace it. Whereupon foorth come his schollers crying out amaine: Hay any work pag. 14.15.20. 21.28. that Archbishops & Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ: and that they mayme and deforme his body:Vdall dial. C. [...] D.2. making it by that meanes a monster. Hay any work Ma. thes. 49.34 That they are vnlawfull, false, & bastardly gouernors of the church. That they are the ordinances of the Diuell: That they are in respect of theyr places; enemies of God: that they are petye Popes, mart, sen. B. 4. C. 1,. pety Antichristes, Bishops of the Diuell, and incarnate Diuels: that none euer defended this gouernmēt of our Bishops, but Papists and such as were infected with [Page 124] Popish errours. That the Lawes that mayntaine the Arch­bishops and Bishops are no more to bee accounted of, then the Lawes that mayntaine Steves: and that the true church of God ought to haue no more to do with them, and their Synago­gues, then with the Synagogue of Sathan.

All which Consistorian and modest assertions, aswell for the equalitie of Ministers, as against the calling of Bishops being ioyned together: are wholy opposite to all that, which hitherto I haue writt̄e touching this mat­ter. Euen as though they should haue cast downe their gauntlets & proclaymed an vtter defiance, to all the Churches, that euer were established in the world, for much aboue three thousande yeares: the Churches whilest the law continued; the churches in Christs time; the Churches in his Apostles times; the Churches throughout all christendome for a thousand & fiue hun­dred yeares: against all the generall Councels: all the auncient fathers: & all ecclesiasticall histories: against al the chiefe reformers of religon in this latter age: against all the learned mens iudgements before mentioned, and against all the reformed churches whersoeuer in christ̄e­dome, that eyther haue BB. or Superint̄edents. God for­giue th̄e this great sin of pride & presumption: & deliuer th̄e out of the number of those, 2. pet 2: Iude. of wh̄o it is said, that their mouthes speake proud things, that they dispise gouernment: that they stand in their own c̄oceit: that they feare not to speak euill of th̄e that are in dignitie & authoritye, & likewise of those things that they know not: that they vse swelling words of vanitie; that they beguile vnstable soules; that they seperate them selues from other, and that they haue not the spirit.

It will not surely serue their turnes one day: to saye that (in such their wilfull opposing of themselues, as it [Page 125] were, against heauen, & in such their outragious rayling and bitternesse, against so holy a calling), they follow­ed certaine of their bretheren the ministers in Scotland, or in the lowe countries, or in Geneua. For in this vaine, they haue exceeded them all, especially them of the two countries last mentioned. Maister Caluin although after his restitution to Geneua, he might be thought to haue had some harder opinion of Bishopps then he had before: yet if you compare him with these fellowes, you would thinke him an especiall fauourer and defender of them. He could well enough indure it [...] to vse these honorable tearmes to Archbishop Cranmer. Illustrissime domine: clarissime presul et mihi ex animo reue­rende: commendinge his authoritie, his wisdome, and his integritie, & desiringe him to put them all in practise, for the benefit of the Church. And in his letter to the King of Polonia he sheweth himselfe to be far from Cart­wrights minde, vz. that the Popes authoritie is more necessary ouer all Churches; then the authoritie of an Archbishopp ouer a prouince, and that neither of them can discharge so great an of­fice. For there, writinge against the pope, he propoun­deth to the Kinges consideration, the auncient forme of church-gouernment by Archbishops: tearminge it a mode­rate honor: (meaninge therby) as I take it (the prehemi­nence and authoritie which Archbishops then had,) as beinge limited for the execution of it, within the com­passe of mans power: wheras the Popes pretended au­thoritie, beinge of so large an extent as comprehending the whole world, could not possibly be executed by a­ny man liuinge.

But yet I am short of M. Caluins moderatiō in this mat­ter: for discoursing of the state of the auncient churches, (before the time of popery): of Bishops, Archbishops, [Page 126] and patriarches, their authority and superiority in their circuites, dioces and prouinces: he vseth these modest speeches. Cal: Instit: lib. 4. Cap: 4. Although the Bishops of those times, did set foorth many canons, wherin they might be thought to expresse more then is expressed in the scriptures, yet they framed their whole gouernement according to the onely rule of gods word, with that caution: vt facilè videas, nihil fere hac parte habuisse a verbo Dei alienum. that you may easily see there was nothing almost, in this behalfe disagreeing from the word of God. If there may be found any imperfection in the orders which they made: yet they indeuoured with a sincere studie, to keepe the institution of God: from the which, ibid. sect. 2. nō multum aberrarunt, they swarued not much. And a little after: the elders that were ministers of the worde, did choose one from amongst them-selues in euery Cittie; vnto whom especially they gaue the title of Bishop, Ne ex aequalitate vt fieri solet dissidia nascerentur: least by aequalitie, as it vsually happeneth, dissentions should arise. As touching the begin­ning of this order: he agreeth with S. Ierome, that it hath continued in the Church since S.ibid. sect. 4. Markes time. And (saith he) that euery prouince had her Archbishop: that also in the Nicene Councel, Patriarches were appointed, who were in or­der and degree aboue Archbishops: Id ad disciplinae conseruatio­nem pertinebat; It did pertaine to the preseruation of discipline. But his conclusion is yet more full, and differeth but a lit­tle (if it differ at all) from that which the learneder sort in England, doe now maintaine with all antiquitie. For speaking of the forme of gouernment so framed (as is said) in the councel of Nice: he vseth these wordes:ibid. sect. 4. Si rem intuemur, reperiemus veteres Episcopos non aliam regendae ec­clesiae formam voluisse fingere, ab ea quam Deus verbo suo prae­scripsit: if we looke to the forme of gouernment it selfe, we shall finds that the auncient Bishoppes, would not deuise another [Page 127] forme of churchregiment, differing from that which God hath prescribed in his word.

And thus you may perceaue, what great difference there is betwixt our mens spirites, and Maister Caluins; their outrage, and his modestie: their pride, and his hu­militie: their rashnes, ignorance, and giddines, and his sobrietie, learning, and iudgment. The forme of ec­clesiasticall gouernment agreed vpon in the councell of Nice: differeth not from that which God hath prescri­bed: and who then but men that haue shamelesse fore­heads, dare so incounter it? But it may peraduenture be sayd: that, howsoeuer Caluin did carrie himselfe in this cause, yet Beza is of an other opinion.

Indeed he is so: but it turneth more & more, dayly to his own discredit. He succeeded Maister Caluin in place; but neither in his learning nor in all his vertues. And I do attribute it vnto his want of iudgment: that he hath shewed himselfe such a busie body, where he had no­thing to doe. It is chiefly he, that hath set the preten­ded reformers, in this whole land, so much a gogge a­gainst Bishops: by his secret letters, and other disordered writinges of incouragement vnto them. And yet (for­sooth) he can write to other men; and pretend the quite contrarie. Consider the processe following: and then, if I be too blame thus to write of him, Epist. 2. tell me of it.

In one of his epistles dated 1570. he affirmeth that Archbishops & Primates are a shadowe and image of the poli­cy of Roome: that they are petty tyrantes in respect of the Pope: and that although the names be neuer soe auntient, yet it ought to haue beene enquired, whether it were lawful to bring them in­to the church &c. It had beene a maruailous beneficiall matter to all posteritie: that Beza had beene the com­maunder [Page 118] at Geneua in the times of the Primitiue church, that so the learend & graue fathers of those ages might haue inquired this point of him & knowen his pleasure.

In the yeare 1572. it seemed good vnto him, (as it hath beene said before) to write his letter into this Iland, to Knox the reformer in Scotland: at what time the Bishops there had receaued the Gospell (at the least many of them as I thinke) though it woulde not serue their turne to keepe them in their places. In which letter amongst many other good consistorian documents, hee writeth thus. Epist. 79. But I would haue you, and the other brethren to remem­ber that which is before your eies: as Bishops brought foorth the Papacy, so false or counter set Bishops, the reliques of Popery, will bring in Epicurisme. They that desire the churches good, let them take heede of this pestilence. And seeing you haue put that plague in Scotland to flight: quaeso &c. I hartily pray you that you neuer suffer it againe vnder any pretence or color of keepinge of vnitie: which pretence deceaued the auncient fathers, euen many of the best of them.

But least any man shoulde imagine, that I doe Beza iniury in applyinge his wordes, to the purpose for the which I bring them: and, that he writ not thus, against such Bishops as did imbrace and maintaine the true reli­gion, which we all professe; but against Popish Bishops: Cartwright him-selfe wil cleare both me and Bezaes mea­ning. For he (a man of the same spirit) hath brought both those places, and vrged them, for Bezaes iudgment against our Bishops nowe in England. Beza (saith he) is so farre from allowing Archbishops, that our kind of Bishops he cal­leth counterset Bishoppes, reliques of Poperie, such as will bring in Epicurisme: and soe he proceedeth on with the rest of Bezaes wordes, to Knox as before they are set downe. [Page 129] But I shall not needed to labour much vpon this point. Beza will himselfe vouch safe (you shall see) to deliuer his mind, as plainly as one would wish.

In his treatise that he writ into Scotland, about the yere 1579. of three sortes of Bishops mentioned in the third Chapter: vz. the Bishops of God, of man, and of the de­uill: He writeth thus (by no good direction, I am sure) of that ancient, and the most godly Councell, that euer was helde since the Apostles times, vz. the honourable councell of Nice. The Nicene Councell pretending anci­ent custome, confirmed the patriarchship, and made a way for the horrible papacy of Rome, (sliding on), and vnderlaid the seate for the harlot that sitteth vpon seauen hils. And after­ward, where M. Caluin spake, as you haue heard, of the forme of Church gouernment, which was then con­cluded vppon, that it differed not from that which God had prescribed: Beza is bold (if Field his translator haue dealt well with him) to call it a deuillish Oligarchie, making the fathers of the said Councell, to be the deuisers, or at least, the aduancers of the Bishops of the deuil. Vnder which member of his diuision, hee bringeth all the Bishops in Europe (excepting his owne parochiall Bishops) not­withstanding anie reformation of religion whatsoeuer. And therefore aduiseth all godly Princes, that at once they abolish them.

Neither is hee in effectanie thing more gratious or bountifull to his second sort of Bishops, the Bishops of men. But before you heare his censure of them, you shall vnderstand how he describeth such a kinde of Bi­shop. The Bishop of man (sayth he) brought into the Church by the alone wisedome of man, besides the expresse word of God, is a certaine power to one certaine pastor, aboue his other fel­lowes, [Page 130] yet limited with certaine orders, or rules prouided a­gainst tyrannie. They which did beare this office of Bishop, are called Bishops in regard of their fellowe Elders, and the whole Cleargie, as watch-men set ouer the Cleargie. And I maruell why the ministers after the Apostles time shoulde not haue as greate neede of such watch-men, as they had when the Apostles themselues liued: who were then their watch-men by all their confessions.

But nowe let vs see what Beza will doo with these kinde of Bishops. Surely by his aduise, down they must as wel as the former, or to vse his translators phrase, they must bee chased awaie. And his chiefe reasons are these, First, because that vnlesse this roote also be plucked vp, it wil come to passe, that the same fruit will sprout and bud forth a­gaine: Secondly, for that Christ (as he falsely supposeth) hath shut this superiority out of the church: And thirdly, be­cause (as hee saith) Where the remnants of this gouernment by a few, are not cleane taken awaie, the word of the Lord is o­penly hindered. Hee meaneth (I thinke) his counterfet platforme of discipline: for the inordinate vrging whereof, some few disordered persons haue beene put to silence. But what hath he to do with that? You see then the mans boldnesse, and with what presumption hee aduanceth himselfe against all the learned Fathers; against all the generall Councels; against all the flouri­shing Churches, that haue beene in the worlde since Christs time; against the iudgementes of all the chiefe learned men (almost) of ourage: & (that which is most with him) euen against the iudgement of his superior master Caluin; and you see also the pit and smoke, from whence the Locustes amongest vs of late yeeres came, that with their venemous libels and railing discourses, [Page 131] haue infected the harts of many good men, with a dis­like of the holy calling of our Bishops. That some haue been mis-lead heeretofore, with the violent streame of this faction, I wonder not But for mine owne parte, I shall little pittie anie of them heereafter, if when they shall see these things, they will notwithstanding yeld o­uer themselues to bee seduced by so grosse, so palpable, & so childish illusions: but especially if they shall heare Beza himselfe begin to alter his mind, and to sing a new song.

I will not affirme much for his alteration: but when hee hath opened himselfe a little further vnto you, ac­count of him as God shall moue your harts. Surely he will not proue a man (in my opinion) for anie to build their faith vppon. In his confessions, he once affirmed, that the constitutions of the auncient fathers concerning Bi­shops, Beza Conf. [...]. [...] Metrapolitanes, and Patriarches, their seates, limites, and authoritie, were made optimo zelo, with the best zeale. It was then, I trust, a zeale ioined with knowledge. And hauing both such zeale and such knowledge, did they agree in the Councell of Nice vppon such a deuillish Oligarchie?

Of late yeres he hath written two or three Letters, to the now Lord Archbishop of Canterburie: with an other manner of stile, then (I suppose) hee woulde haue done, if he had thought him to haue been the Bishop of the deuil.Beza & Sadeel to the L. Arch. 15. Sept. 1589. For thus he indorsed them. Reuerendissimo viro, et in Christo patri, Domino Archiepiscopo Caentuariensi, serenissimae Reginae Conciliario, et totius Angliae primati. To the most reuerend man & father in Christ, the Lord Arch­bishop of Canterburie, Councellor to the Queenes maiestie, and primate of all England. And one of them was thus sub­scribed. [Page 134] Amplitudini tuae addictissimi in Christo, Theodo­rus Beza, A. Sadeel, nomine totius nostri caetus, nec non toti­us Ecclesiae Geneuensis. Most addicted to your greatnes Th. B.A.S. in the name of our assembly, and also of the whole Church of Geneua. But it is of especial consideration, that hee writeth in the other Letter.

It should seeme, that the sayd now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury hath written somwhat vnto Beza, as concer­ning his ouer-busying of himselfe about our Church, without anie lawfull commission. And in defence of himselfe he answereth thus. Caeterum reuerende mi Do­mine, Beza to the L. Arch. of Cant. 8. Mert. 691. But my reuerend Lorde, in that you thought it meet to moue vs in your Letters, that wee should thinke well of that kingdome, and likewise of your Church, and the gouern­ment thereof; surely it troubled both mee and Sadeel in some sort, as beeing greatly afraide least anie sinister rumours are brought to you of vs, or least those things, which we haue writ­ten of Ecclesiasticall policie, properly against that Antichristi­an tyrannie as necessitie required, are taken by some in that sense, as if euer we had meant to compel to our order those chur­ches that thinke otherwise then we doo of it, and the gouernors of them, agreeing els with vs in the truth of doctrine agreeable to the word of God, and that except they followed our order, we accounted otherwise of them then their godlines and dignitie, and mutuall brotherhood doth require, &c. Farre be this arro­gancie from vs. Quis vllum nobis in vllam Ecclesiam imperi­um tribuit▪ Who doth giue vs authority ouer anie church▪ Far be it from vs that we should thinke (so the substantiall matters be kept) there ought nothing to be graunted to antiquitie, no­thing to custome, nothing to the circumstances of places, times, and persons, &c.

Againe in his booke against D. Sarauia, hauing spo­ken [Page 135] of the tyrannie of Popish Bishops,Pag. 126 hee maketh this exception, Ne (que) tamen: But wee doo not therefore accuse all Archbishops and Bishops (now so called) of tyranie. For what arrogancie were that? Nay so as they doo imitate the examples of the olde holy Bishops, and indeuor as much as they can, to re­forme the house of God so miserably deformed, according to the rule of Gods word, why may we not acknowledge al of them now so called Archbishops and Bishops, obey them, and honor them with all reuerence▪ So far we are from that which some obiect vnto vs most falsly and most impudently, as though we tooke vppon vs to prescribe to anie Church, in anie place, our exam­ples to be followed, like vnto those vnwise men, who account wel of nothing but of that which they doo themselues. And to the same effect a little before,Pag. 111 If now the reformed Churches of England being vnderpropped with the authoritie of Bishoppes and Archbishops, do continue, as this hath happened to that Church in our memorie, that she hath had men of that calling, not onely most notable martyrs of God, but also excellent pastors and doctors: Fruatur sane ista singulari dei benificentia quae vtinam illi sit perpetua: Let her truly inioy this singular bles­sing of God, Zanch. d [...]reli­gi pag 217 which I wish may be perpetuall vnto her. Further­more, it should seeme, that Zanchius (as moderate and learned a man, as euer fauoured the pretended Elder­ships) was appointed some 12, or 16. yeres since, to draw a conf [...]ssion of religion for the Churches of France, & others, as Melanchthon had done the Augustan confes­sion for Germanie. Accordingly hee drew it, and in the same, speaking of Bishops, he vseth these wordes: Non improbamius patres, Zanch. dere­lig. cap, 25. &c. Wee doo not disalow the fathers, in that after a diuers waie of dispensing the word and gouerning the Church, they multiplied diuerse orders of Ministers: seeing it was lawfull for them so to do, as it is vnto vs, and seeing it ap­peareth, [Page 136] that they did it for honest causes, appertaining at that time to the order, decencie, and edification of the Church. And in the next article: Hac ratione, &c. By this reason, vz. that the nurseries of dissentions and of schismes may be taken away, wee thinke that these thinges which were ordained before the Councell of Nice, concerning Archbishops, nay, as touching the foure Patriarches, may be excused and defended. When this booke was perused, and this clause found in it, then forsoth a deuise was had, for the staying of it, vnder pre­tence, that now it was thought more meete, that there should be a harmonie made of all the confessions of di­uers churches.Derelig. pa. 218 But Zanchius himselfe maketh this the chiefe cause (if I vnderstand him) why his booke dyd mislike some of them: for that hee had written, as before is mentioned, of Bishops. For so hee sayth, Magnus quidam vir, &c. A certaine great man, (meaning Beza, as it is supposed,) did write vnto mee of this matter, as followeth. Your confession was read by mee and N. & others, with great delight. It is written most learnedly, and in a most exquisite methode, and (if you except that which you adde to­wards the end, touching Archbishops and the Hierarchie) mi­hi summopere placuit, it pleased mee exceedingly.

Vpon this occasion (as it seemeth) Zanchius printed his said confession, with certaine annotations. In the which annotations, he sheweth three reasons, for his a­llowance of Archbishops & Bishops. The first, is groun­ded vpon the practise of the primitiue church present­ly after the Apostles times: the second is, for that hee thought it his dutie in the draught of his said booke, to haue regard to those reformed churches which retaine both Bishops & Archbishops: and the third, because all the reformed Churches generally, although they haue [Page 137] chaunged the names, yet in effect they doe keepe the authoritie: as where they haue superintendents, and ge­nerall superintendents: Nay (saith he) where these new, & base Latine names are not admitted, Ibi tamen solent esse ali­quot primarij, penes quos fere tota est authoritas: yet there are in those places vsually certaine chiefemen, that doe in a manner beare all the sway. But I pray you be pleased that I may deliuer vnto you, the maner of his setting down of his first reason, and that in his owne words: for they carry with them a notable condemnation of other mens great pride & rashnes. Cum haenc conscriberem fidei confessionem, &c. When I writ this confession of faith, I writ all the thinges in it of a good conscience: and as I beleeued, so I freely spake the scriptures, teaching men so to doe. And my faith first of all, and simply, doth rely vpon the word of God, & then somewhat also vpon the common consent of the whole an­cient Catholicke Church, if the same bee not repugnant to the scriptures. For I beleeue that what thinges were defined and re­ceiued by the auncient Fathers assembled in the name of the Lord, with a generall consent of them all, and without any con­tradiction of the holy Scriptures, the same surely, although they be not of the same authoritie with holy Scriptures, yet did they proceed from the holy Ghost. Heereof it commeth to passe, that those things which are of this nature, neither would I, neither dare I with a good conscience disallow them. And what can be shewed more certainly out of histories, out of the councels, & out of the writings of all the ancient fathers, then that those orders of Ministers, of the which we haue spoken, haue bene ordained and receiued in the Church, by the generall consent of all chri­stian common-wealths. And who then am I that should pre­sume to reproue that which the whole Church hath approued▪ This is true and religious humilitie. [Page 138] Thus all graue and discreet godly men haue euerwrit­ten. Those that contemne all the learned Fathers that went before them, doe open a windowe to their owne discredite by those that shall come after them. That which this godly and great learned man ascribeth to the holy Ghost, and durst not with a safe conscience re­prooue: euerie sawcie Iacke with vs, euerie ignoraunt dolt, and euerie Bridewell rake-hell dare disdaine and condemne. Tell them of Fathers and Councels: they make but a mocke at it.

But as yet you know not the cause: why I haue espe­cially alleadged all these things out of Zanchius. I will therefore now tell it you. And it is this. You haue heard how Beza and some others disliked of Zanchius confes­sion, and wherefore. But now hee is come about, and is grown to be fully of Zanchius iudgement; if a man may beleeue him. For wheras D. Sarauia had cited these pla­ces of Zanchius in the behalfe of Bishops, and Archbi­shops;Beza contra Sarau. p. 161. M. Beza aunswered directly: that neither he nor his brethren doe dissent therein from Zanchius: à quo minimè certè dissentimus. But I may not conceale this frō you; that although Zanchius hath written so modestly of the callinges of Archbishops and Bishops: (as it hath beene shewed), yet he rather fancied the new platform of Elderships: which Beza omitteth not to put Sarauia in minde of, when hauing yeelded to Zanchius his saide opinion of Bishops, he addeth other places out of him for his allowance of the Eldership: and then con­cludeth;Beza contra Sarau. p. 164. Si Zanchio assentiris, qua de re contendimus? If you agree with Zanchius, where about contend wee▪ Wherby I obserue into what a streight Beza is brought. For notwithstanding any thing that hee hath written [Page 139] formerly against such Bishops & Archbishops, as pro­fesse the Gospell: he can now bee content to reuoke it wholy, so as they at Geneua may holde their Elderships. He hath so farre ingaged his credit for that kind of go­uernment, as gladly he would preserue the reputation of it. But he seeth (I am perswaded) it will not bee, and that the equality they haue dreamed of, tendeth to con­fusion, & therefore he beginneth to retire himself from that conceit, as well as he may. It is much (his former proceedings considred) that euer he could be brought to Zanchius moderation. But yet hee commeth neerer vnto vs; for although his Bishop of man found so small fauour with him before, as that hee made him the roote of iniquitie, and needs he must be plucked vp: yet now he is much more fauorable vnto him (if I vnderstande him,) and saith he calleth him the Bishop of man, non simpliciter, Beza contra Sara. pag. 143 sed comparatè, not simply, but by way of compari­son, in respect (he meaneth) of his Bishop of God. Now he acknowledgeth him to haue had place in the church euer since S. Marks time: and that one was so chosen (saith he) certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet: assuredly it neither can nor ought to be reprehended. Nay, hee affirmeth: Iustis de causis fieri debuit, Beza contra Sara. pag. 153. That for iust causes it was necessarie: Vt vnusquispiam &e. presbyterio [...]esset & permaneret: That some one should be the Prelate ouer the presbyterie, (not for a day or an action, as Cartwright saith) but to remaine and continue: allowing well of S. Ieromes reason, why such a choise ought to bee made, vz. In remedium schismatis, for the remedy of schismes.

But one thing remaineth, which passeth all the rest. You shall see that for all the former stormes; Beza could be very well content at the length (if he might) to be in [Page 140] effect an Archbishop. Doctor Sarauia, amongst di­uers other proofes, for the calling and authoritie of Bi­shops; bringes an order out of the Apostles Canons, so called because of their antiquitie. First you shall see it: and then also heare Maister Bezas iudgement for the matter of it.Canon Apost. cap. 35. The Bishoppes of euery nation ought to knowe, who is the chiefe amongst them, and to account him as it were their heade, without whose allowance they ought to doe nothing of any moment, but euery one those things onely, which belong to his owne parish, and the villages which are vnder it▪ Neither let himselfe doe any thing with­out the knowledge of all. Beza contra Sarau. p. 115. 116. For so there shall bee concord, and God shall be glorified through our Lord in his holy spirit. Thus far the Canon: whereof Beza writeth in this sort. There is here mention made of him, that was the chiefe amongst his fellow Bishops, who was afterward called the Archbishop. And a little after speaking of the same Canon. Quid aliud hic statuitur, quam ordo ille, quem in omnibus locis ecclesiis restitutum cupimus▪ What els is here appointed, than that or­der which wee desire should bee restored to the Churches in all places▪ And is not the spirituall gouernement of Geneua as yet in her perfection▪ Haue they rashly ouerthrown there such Offices of the Church, as nowe they would gladly should be restored againe? Those Chur­ches that haue followed Bezas humor, in the abolishing of their Bishops, and Archbishops, may they not iustly wish he had neuer beene borne? It is an easie matter to ouerthrow: but he and they all, shall find it a most dif­ficult thing to build vp againe. Haue they pleaded so long for an aequalitie amongst all Ministers, that now they can be content to be as it were the heades & chiefe ouer the Bishops within the same countries?

[Page 141]Well, the conclusion is this: Either Beza writ not the Epistles mentioned to Duditius and Knox, (though hee hath set them out in his owne name:) or, what hee writ in them against Bishops & Archbishops; he meant should bee onely extended against popish Bishops and Archbishops, (& then Cartwright hath done him great iniurie, in affirming that hee meant our Bishoppes:) or, he is not the author of the treatise of the three sortes of Bishops, (albeit he calleth it, Scriptum meum, my discourse: and saith as much in effect in his annotations vpon the Epistle to the Philippians:) or,Beza to Law [...]. Annot. Philip. 1. verse. 1. he supposeth in that trea­tise, that there were popish Bishops, and Archbishops, before, and at the time that the Councell of Nice was helde; (when in all the world there was neither popery nor popish Bishop:) or, hee was ignoraunt, that Field had translated the saide treatise into English, and that it was published amongst the brethren here, and held for currant doctrine: or, by his agreeing with Zanchius; by his writing (as hee doth) to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury: by his allowing the choise of one Minister, to haue a permanent office of primacie ouer the rest: by his wishing the restitution of the orders mentioned in the Apostles Canons: by these thinges and the rest, specified, (being throughly considered.) or (as I said) hee hath now altered his opinion (whatsoeuer hee hath written els where to the contrary) or els you must take him as you find him. For my part, I will thinke the best: & that he hath been formerly abused very greatly by slaunderous reportes, which caused him to write as he hath done.

But, howsoeuer this course against Bishops hath been carried on hitherto amongst them: God bee thanked [Page 142] for some amendment. And lette vs take holde of that which they haue granted. You may be bold to build v­pon it for a truth: that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto. And then to ende this chapter: Forasmuch as God himselfe, appointed an inequalitie amongst the Priestes in the olde Testament: Forasmuch as Christ, though he calleth himselfe a Minister, to minister vnto others, was yet the Maister ouer his Apostles and Dis­ciples: Forasmuch as by Christs institution, and in his owne time, the Apostles were superior vnto the seuen­tie Disciples: Forasmuch as the Apostles when the gos­pell began to spread it selfe, appointed sundry Timothies & Titus, to gouerne the Churches in diuerse countries and territories: Forasmuch as all the ecclesiasticall hi­stories, doe record the superioritie of Bishops, and doe sette downe, the Catalogues of many of them, and which of the Apostles and Apostolicall Bishops, and in what cities & countries they succeeded: Forasmuch as all the ancient generall Councels, & all the ancient and godly learned Fathers, haue allowed of Bishops, and of their superiority ouer the rest of the clergie: Forasmuch as Bishops haue been accounted generally throughout the world, to be the Apostles successors, & haue conti­nued in the Church euer since the Apostles times: For­asmuch as there was neuer any one of all the auncient Fathers, nor any learned man for 1500. yeres but Aerius the heretike, that euer held, that there ought to bee no difference betwixt a Bishop & a Priest, (I meane an or­dinary Minister of the word:) and that his opinion was imputed vnto him 1200. yeeres since by Epiphanius and S. Augustine, for an heresie: Forasmuch as all the chiefe of the learned men that were the principall instru­ments [Page 143] vnder God in this latter age, for the restitution of the Gospell, allowed fullie of Bishoppes, and of their authoritie, and would not willingly haue submit­ted themselues to their obedience, if they might haue bene receiued with anie tollerable conditions: Foras­much as all the reformed Churches in Germanie, that doo imbrace the Augustane confession, haue (for the most part) their superintendents and generall superin­tendents, the same in effect with our Bishops & Arch­bishops: Forasmuch as the chiefest of the Germain wri­ters now liuing, do iustifie the calling & offices of their superintendents, and generall superintendents by the word of God. Forasmuch as none of later times euer condemned the calling and authoritie of such Bishops and Archbishops, as imbraced the Gospell (for ought I finde) but Beza and his schollers. Forasmuch as Zanchi­us, a fauorer of the Elderliship equalitie, and now Beza himselfe ioyning with him, do both of them confesse, that the calling and authoritie of Bishops and Archbi­shops may be defended: that they did proceed frō the holy Ghost, and that there is nothing more manifest in all the Ecclesiasticall histories, all the ancient councels, and in the writings of all the ancient fathers, then the allowance of them, throughout all christendome: For­asmuch as Beza for his own part, hath written so hono­rably to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury, and so ge­nerally of all our Bishops now professing the Gospell, condemning those of great arrogancie, that shall pre­sume to speak against them: Forasmuch as you perceiue by Bezaes confession, that there ought to be Bishops or Prelates, such as were in the Church from S. Markes time, for the auoiding and staying of contentions and [Page 136] schismes. And forasmuch (I saie) as all these particular points, are in sort, as you haue heard, the most of them confessed, & the rest by diuerse learned men proued to be true, & so still alwaies to be iustified, with as ful con­sent and authoritie, as may satisfie anie men, either of learning or iudgement: I see no reason why this Ana­baptisticall dreame, of equality amongst pastors, should not be sent backe to the place frō whence it issued: why the vrgers of it, with such bitternesse, ought to bee ac­counted otherwise off, than hereby, I trust, you may see they deserue: why Cartwright, and his libelling genera­tion, against the present forme of our Church-gouern­ment, should be anie longer indured: or why any cal­ling in the world, next vnto the calling of euery Moses and soueraigne, within their owne dominions, should be more esteemed, cherished, reuerenced, or honored, by all true christians, then the callings, offices, & autho­ritie of Bishops, and Archbishops: hauing so generall & continuall an allowance, both of God himselfe, and of all godly and rightly zealous men, euer since there was any outward forme of church gouernment appointed.

IT is now become, to be a receiued o­pinion, especially amongst those that desire to haue the kingdome of the pretended Elderships, to raigne ouer them: that S. Paul in the fourrh to the Ephesians, doth make the Doctor, a distinct office, from the Pastor, contrarie to the iudge­ment [Page 137] of S. Augustine, Hierome, Chrisostome, Bullinger, Mus­culus, &c. who make them but one office, euen as feed­ing and teaching, are all one. Of this deuise (for ought I do remember) Caluin was the first author; whose con­ceit Beza followeth. And then it may not be meruailed, though all the rest of that humor, do faithfully imbrace it. Of this office, our reformers (all of them ioyntly) do carry this resolute opinion:Trau. def. of dis. T.C. that it is a distinct ordinance of Christ, to continue in the Church for euer: that there ought to be a Doctor in euery Parish, wheresoeuer there is a Pastor: that the doctor is one of the members of the body of Christ: that the doctor is one of those officers, to whō the gouernment of the Church (by Christs appointment) is cōmitted: & that cōsequēt­ly, he hath by the same authoritie his place & voice in the Con­sistorie, as wel & by as good right, as either the pastor or Elder.

So as, if there be anie reformed churches in the world (where there are pastors) that haue not these doctors, & which do not admit them, to haue anie such authoritie, nor giue thē either place or voice in their consistories, then surely all those, and many such like speeches fol­lowing, do euen as properly fall vpon them, as they do vpon our church, against the which they were first coi­ned, and vttered.Learned dis. pa. 17.18. They refuse the ordinance of God. They de­priue the Church of the free gift of Christ:T.C. l. 2.465. 463.they purpose, not to haue the Church flourish in true knowledge. They want some necessarie guifts which are tied necessarily to that office.Def. of dis. p. 12.The knowledge of the son of God (being necessarie to saluation).Def. of dis. p. 54.The meanes thervnto are absolutely necessarie:T.C. l. 1.which is the hauing of pastors and doctors,Demonst. cap. 3so long as men are subiect to ignorance: The church is miserably destitute; that wāteth the doctor. They cānot take awaie those ministeries, that God hath placed in his Church. No christian Churches, ought to swarue from the of­ficers [Page 146] (he nameth doctors) that God hath appointed. Mart. Thes. Godly ser. 40.41 Def. of dis. p. 16. If they do, they maime the Church, they take away a member from the bo­die of Christ: they maime his bodie and deforme it. Which, after the manner of their amplifications, is a matter of as great importance, as the addition of anie new officers, vnto the Church, or vnto the bodie of Christ, making it thereby, both waies, a monster.

There is a saying of Will Summer, that whosoeuer pin­ched him, he wold be sure to strike him that stood next him. And I cannot more fitly resemble our reformers rashnes. Things go not here as they would haue them, which pincheth them; & therupon whilest they would be reuenged vppon those that hinder their plots, then (laying about them like mad men) haue stroke one for another: and so (as in such cases it oft falleth out) haue maimed verie sore their next and best friends. For I do not remember, that either Geneua, France, the low Coun­tries, or Scotland, do so account of Doctors, as our men do. They recken them not among those officers, that Christ hath appointed for the gouernment of the church. They haue no places or voices, but of curtesie, in their consistories: their Senates, or glorious body of Christ, is without them; and yet they esteeme of them­selues, to be as perfect and entire bodies, as comely, & of as beautifull a stature, as our platformers, (their scol­lers) can deuise, and counterfeit anie. But heare theyr owne wordes.

The Ecclesiasticall discipline of France, speaketh in this sort:Of the Consi­storie. The Elders and Deacons do make the Ecclesiasticall Senate, wherein the Ministers of the word sit as chiefe. And after, thus of doctors (as I take it.) The professors of diuinity may bee admitted into the consistory. It is also thus decreed [Page 147] in the nationall councell held in Hage 1586.Artic. 34. In all chur­ches the consistorie shall be compounded of Ministers & elders. By Ministers they meane pastors, as it appeareth there afterwards, in the 74. article. In Scotland likewise, the managing of their discipline,The forme, &c. printed 1584. is wholy in the handes of their pastors and Aldermen. They make mention indeed of doctors; but yet so, as their consistories, may bee per­fect inough without them. And I see no other office as­signed there, vnto them, then to be schoole-masters, or to reade Lectures in the vniuersities. I finde it reported in like sorte; that at Geneua, Beza is both pastor and doctor. Furthermore, Caluin is of opinion,Remonst. p. 14 [...] Cal. Instit. l. 4. c. 3. sect. 4. that the Doctor hath not to deale with the administration of Discipline. And it is apparant by the lawes of Geneua, & of that schoole, that (sauing now it falleth out, Beza is the Rector of the school), otherwise the doctor, as doctor, (for any thing I finde) is not of the consistorie: at the least (I suppose) that many are not.Lawes of Ge­neua. For they saie, that as things are now disposed, they comprehend vnder this title of Doctors, &c. the order of schooles, teachers of tongues, and of humane sciences, as well as teachers of diuinitie.

But Bertrand is plaine and direct:Treatise of the Church. cap. 9 The Doctors charge (sayth he) reacheth not to the charge of gouernment, and ex­ecution of discipline, &c. Againe,Ibidem cap. 14. The Consistorie, is compo­sed, made, and consisteth, of the Pastors, and Elders. Where­vnto also are admitted and receiued, the doctors and Deacons: so farre forth, and in as much, as they shall iudge it to bee ex­pedient, &c. Sohnius also saith.Ope. to. 1. p. 224. Doctores non habebant Ec­clesiae inspectionem aut gubernationem. The Doctors had not the ouer-sight or rule of the Church: but were like to the catechisors and teachers of young-linges;Dan. Isag. part. 3. cap. 54. which were afterward appointed. Danaeus, declaring that the admi­nistration [Page 148] of their discipline, doth onely belong to their Pastors and Elders, telleth vs also (and that from Gene­ua) that for a neede they may take Deacons into theyr Consistories: but doth not once so much as name the Doctor to be a man worthie of anie such fauour.To. 7. ob. pa. 257 Veze­lius likewise sendeth vs worde from Newstade, that the Doctors office is not amongst the ordinarie functions, which are to be perpetuall in the Church; and that it doth rather appertaine to the schooles. Eccl. li. 2. cap. 1 & 5. Franciscus Iunius (a principall consistorian) is also most resolute, that the Doctor hath not to deale in the Ecclesiasticall gouern­ment, but onely in the scholasticall: and that his office is not otherwise an ecclesiasticall office, but as schooles are Seminaria Ecclesiae, the Seminaries of the Church; and so schoole-masters, ecclesiastical officers. Whose dutie (saith Bannosius) is to teach youth, De pol. ciui. Dei. cap. 9 not as Pastors do in their common language, sed Graeco, Latino, & Hebraeo, but in Latine, Greeke, and Hebrue. And for anie place in their Elder­ships,Chap. 10 he assigneth them none: making their Consistories to consist onely, of Pastors, Deacons, and Elders.

Now, if these things be true, which heere I haue re­ported, is it not wonderfull, with what faces Cartwright and the rest, dare tell vs so confidently, of such necessity of their pretended doctors, as before I haue noted▪ Do all the reformed Churches which they brag of, dwell in such darknesse, as that they deforme and mayme Christs bodie, and knowe it not▪ Nay, peraduenture if they bee pressed ouer eagerly with these examples and testimonies, they will not sticke, to tell either Geneua, or the best of them all, another manner of tale. Where it is obiected, agaynst the great necessitie of Doctors, which is pretended, that, some Churches haue them [Page 149] not: aunswere is made, that Sacraments are verie profita­ble, and yet sometime the Church cannot haue them: Def. of dis. p. 69 and that, although they are not simplie, and absolutely necessarie to saluation: yet so necessarie they are, as the contempt and wil­full neglect of them, is damnable. And there is theyr aun­swere: implying (forsooth) such a lyke necessitie of his Doctors, as though, none coulde bee saued, that con­temned this fancie of theirs. Which aunswere, is puf­fed vp with an hereticall humour, of condemning all men, that doo withstand them; or, if his dearest friend should speake for him, the best sense that it can possiblie carrie, is this: that those who incounter with these Doctors, are, in his opinion, but sillie and ignoraunt persons. For otherwise, if they knewe but as much as hee, and his companions doo knowe, and shoulde resist these officers, there were then no remedie with them, by his diuinitie, but fall they must needes, with­in the same daunger, that remayneth for such, as con­temne the holy Sacramentes. So, as if hee escape the sayde imputation, of that hereticall humour, of condemning: yet another marke thereof sticketh fa­ster, both vppon him and his fauourers, then (I feare) they will easily shake off from them; and that is, pride, and an ouer-weening of themselues, and their owne learning. But it is a shame, that such insolencie is not more carefully repressed. They haue rashly writ­ten, they knowe not what; and for their reputations, (with most ridiculous obstinacie, euen agaynst Gods forbod, all the world in effect impugning them) yet they will needes looke bigge on the matter, and blush not. In their first admonitiō, they themselues did most faithfully (after their manner▪) assure the high Court [Page 150] of parliament,Admon. 4 that the officers, which had to deale in the Ecclesiasticall discipline, (by them at that time vrged so vehemently) were Pastors, Elders and Deacons. And after, To these three ioyntly, the Ministers, Seniors, and Deacons, is the whole regiment of the Church committed. So as then, these parochiall Doctors, were cleane out of request. And is not this the lightnes, 2. Corinth. 1.17 and fleshly minde, which the Apostle renounceth, in that they come thus vnto vs, with yea, and nay.

But as yet you see not all the vncertainties, follies, iarres,Eccle. pa. 95 squaringes, and contradictions, which I finde a­bout this matter, Iunius saith, that of doctors, some were prophets, & some were doctors. Beza, he holdeth that S. Pauls meaning, was to diuide Prophets, into Pastors &, doctors. Whose diuisions or opinions cannot both bee true; if the rules of diuisiō be duly obserued. For by the first, euery prophet is a doctor: and by the second, euery doctor is a prophet. Furthermore, as Iunius very cun­ningly will draw, both a prophet and a doctor, out of a doctor,Def. of dis. p. 61 & as Beza wringeth the doctor out of the pro­phet: so Trauerse he can fetch him out of a Bishop. Of Bishops (saith he) some are pastors, and some are doctors. By whose extraction, euery Geneua school-master (that tea­cheth but petits) is now become a Bishop. And perad­uenture I doe espie his pollicie in it.

A great while it went vnchecked amongst them, for an Ecclesiastical canon (as though the king of Persia had made it), that a Doctor was inferior to the Pastor, and to holde the second place. But since it was better con­sidered of, & wisely foreseene, that Cartwright & some others, might more safely take vpon them the office of doctors, thē of pastors (who are tied more strictly to the [Page 151] obseruation of diuers ceremonies▪) they seeme to mee, to bee quite come about, and to assigne the first place mentioned, vnto the Doctor: & so no maruaile if they make him a Bishop.Pag. 15. The office of teaching (saith the lear­ned discourser) is the chiefe & principal office in the church. And afterward. The office of a Doctor is to teach. With whom the godly Sermoner seemeth to agree, when he saith:Pag. 73. Mans soule hath two parts: vz. reason, or the minde; and the hart, or the affection. By the fall of Adam there is darknes in the mind, and rebellion in the hart. Now the Lord, to cure these diseases, hath giuen remedie to his Church: First a Doctor to teach vs, and then a Pastor to exhort vs, &c. And Fenner-likewise,Sacrae Theolog. Pag. 275. doth place the Doctor before the Pa­stor.

But of this matter I haue no great regard: whether soeuer goeth first, as proud commeth after. And perad­uenture, they haue some way to shift it. I will not ther­fore stand greatly vppon it: especially, hauing some o­ther of their Doctoral points to aduertise you of: which are of greater importaunce. For as yet, they are not a­greed, (for any thing I can find) whether their Doctors in that they are Doctors, bee Ministers, to take (as wee commonly speake) the cure and charge of soules vpon them, in particular parishes, or not. In the whole treatise of the discipline of Fraunce: the rules and orders sette downe for making of Ministers, doe belong altogether vnto such as our men tearme Pastors. And the same course is also held, in the seruice booke of Scotland. But most plaine it is, in the generall Synode of Hage, (vz. that Doctors are not such Ministers) where hauing set downe (after the newest fashion) the foure functions left vs (as they say) by Christ: vz. Pastors, Doctors, El­ders, [Page 152] and Deacons: it presently followeth in this man­ner:Art 3. Nemo sine legitima vocatione, &c. No man ought to take vpon him to preach, or administer the sacraments without a lawfull calling; although he be a Doctor, an Elder, or a Dea­con. Whereby it appeareth (as I said) that their Doctors in some places beyond the seas, are no Ministers, with­out some further calling.Dis. eccles. sac. cap. 1. &c. And yet our English refor­mers, are generally of another iudgement; making Mi­nisters of the worde to comprehend, aswell Doctors, as Pastors: as it appeareth in all their seuerall treatises. I will not quote any other places, than their subscribed new draught of discipline:Dis eccles sac. cap. 1. and their Captaines resolu­tion:T.C. l. 1. pag. 85. &c. that the officers mentioned Ephes. 4. were all of them, assuredly, Ministers of the word.

Lastly, if they should bee able in time to compasse this point: that their Doctors, by vertue of that calling, might goe for such Ministers; yet a new controuersie thereupon ariseth, not inferiour to any of the rest: vz. whether it appertaineth to these kinde of Ministers of the word, to be Ministers also of the sacraments. Caluin thinketh,Inst. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 4. that this is a part of the difference betweene the Pastor and the Doctor: Quod Doctores, nec discipli­nae, nec sacramentorū administrationi praesunt: That Doctors haue neither to deale with the discipline', nor with the admi­nistration of sacraments. But Cartwright (little esteeming Caluins iudgement in this matter) is most earnest to the contrary: who grounding himself (as he would seem) vpon diuers reasons, examples, and authorities, giueth out these Oracles.T.C. l. 1. p. 139. The Ministers of the word & sacraments, cannot be pulled in sunder. It is a perpetuall ordinance; that the same should bee the Ministers of the worde, and sacraments. These wordes are plaine inough, to expresse a mans [Page 153] mind. But you may not giue any faith vnto him. For (as I suppose) hee hath altered his iudgement. And yet, if you will peruse the place; you shall not finde him more peremptorie, in any one point, throughout all his wri­tings.

In the new draught of discipline (wherunto he hath subscribed,) it is thus defined. The Church-officers are first the Ministers of the worde, &c. And those are Pastors, Qui doctrinam & sacramenta administrant; Who administer do­ctrine and the sacraments: or Doctors, Qui versantur in sana doctrina docenda, & conuincendis erroribus; Who are occupi­ed in teaching of wholesome doctrine, and in confuting of er­rors. And thus his second sort of Ministers of the word, is quite debarred, and cut off, from the administration of the sacraments. Not to gratifie, I suppose, either Cal­uin, or the truth: but because it concerneth most, their owne present estate. For as the Doctor, for their sakes, began to be aduanced a steppe higher than he was be­fore: so is hee now likewise (as I imagine) in the same respect, disburdened of that base office. They can finde in their harts, to preach: but, vrge them to administer the sacraments, and their common answere is this: we haue nothing to doe with that duetie: it belongeth to the Pastors, and we are Doctors. The matter is; they will not obserue the orders of the Church, in the admi­nistration of sacramentes: whereupon it is now come to passe, that there may bee certaine Ministers of the worde, who haue not authoritie to administer the sa­cramentes.Prouerb. 5. [...]. But let them goe. They haue not written truth, in the tables of their harts: and therefore she hath for­saken them.

AS concerning the number of these pre­tended rulers, there will bee a more fitte place to speake of that hereafter. Now you shall first knowe: what manner of men they must bee. In most parishes of England, no doubt, but the brethren must content themselues, with very meane fellowes, Husbandmen, Taylors, Butchers, Carpenters, Shoma­kers, Thatchers, Dawbers, and such like. Indeed at Ge­neua they flaunt it out. For there hauing twelue in num­ber,Lawes of Gene­ua. they must all be men of state: vz. Two of the Lordes of the little Councell: foure of the Councell of three score; and six of the Councell of two hundred. Which policie pleaseth the Ministers there so greatly: that (to their commen­dation be it spoken) they wish the like order to bee ob­serued in all places, as neerely as may bee. M. Beza spea­king hereof,Epistle before Heluet. conf. saith: That there must bee consideration had, that Princes, and Noblemen, and such as haue authoritie, be chosen to be of the Segniorie. Who being so chosen (saith Cart­wright, Lib. 3. pag. 70. Demonst. c. 14. and his demonstrator if they should disdaine to ioyne in consultation with poore men, they should disdaine, not men, but Christ himselfe. According to some proportion of which precept (as Iiudge) the saide Cartwright in ano­ther place affirmeth:T C. lib. 1. pag. 179. that is the practise of the Chur­ches reformed, (after his fashion) to choose such Elders, as are able to liue without charging the Church any whit. So that as neere as they can, they will haue the chiefest and the richest, to be their Elders; that so the honourable e­state [Page 155] of the Ministers, might shewe it selfe with greater glory. For, as it is set downe, in the seuenth Geneuian ar­ticle: In case one of the two Lordes of the Councell chosen, should then also bee a Syndicke; yet he must not bee in the consi­storie, but as a common Elder, to gouerne the Church with the rest of the companie:Demonst. cap. [...] Def. of eccles. gou. 141. Yea, and which is more; Euerie such officer is to be continually resident vpon his charge, and that in his owne person. What, not a substitute to bee admitted for a Nobleman? It is well. Then Kings, Princes, Magi­strates, Lords, & Gentlemen: looke well to your char­ges.De eccles. c [...]. 1 [...]. Marke (if it please you) how you are raunged: and giue place to your betters. For (saith Danaeus Your de­gree or kind; Longè est dissimile, ac inferius ordine pastorum, Is farre vnlike, and inferiour to the order of pastors. You are but made their assistants, as the 70. were to Moses. Ergo quae inter eiusdem Collegij & Curiae assessores, siue consiliarios, & ip­sum praesidem differentia est, eadem est inter presbyteros & pa­stores eiusdem. And therefore knowe this: that there is as much difference betwixt you, & the pastors of your consistories (wherin you serue:) as is betwixt a king, and his councellors. Fie vppon superioritie, may these Ministers say, fie vpon it. Indeede we (saith one of them in effect) do rest, Def. of eccles. gou 70. not in names carrying shew, of worldly rule and lordly commaundement, &c. but of ser­uice, guiding, leading, ouerseeing, directing, & such like. Which maketh me to remember the Frier in Chaucer, that desired of the Capon, but the liuer; of a white loafe, but a shiuer; and after that, a rosted pigs head: but for him he would not any beast were dead. They wil seeke to be no higher, than be aboue princes. They wil take nothing vpon them (men of great humilitie) but euen, to be guiders, leaders, ouerseers, and directers. And as for names of any great shew or honor, they care not for them: so they may haue [Page 156] but onely the estimation, which is due to men, that haue such vaine titles. Euen Chaucers Frier, vp and downe. But what names will please them, you shall finde that after a sort, in the next chapter.

YOu must not thinke, but that in agreeing by what name their pretended gouer­nors must properly bee called, they will be very curious. For in christening, but of priuate persons: their new discipline prouideth, that no names be giuen, Quae paganismum, vel papatum resipiunt: which smell either of pa­ganisme, or popery: but such especially, as are in the scriptures. And therefore, for Robert, Alice, and such like, &c. some of them (as one noteth) haue deuised these names for their children. The Lord is neere: More triall: Reformation: Dis­cipline: Ioy againe: Sufficient: From aboue: Free gift: More fruit: Dust: names, in our English phrases, not very vsu­al, or oft found in the scriptures. As if for example; where we read: Adam knew Eue: or Kain killed Abell: we should say after their fashion: Red knew liuing: and Possession slew vanitie. If they should translate the scriptures: they would doe it (as it seemeth) very properly. But now, if in a mat­ter of so little weight, (in respect of that I haue in hande) they haue thus bestirred themselues, and that with so great discretion: you must thinke, that for their Alder­men, (the sinewes of their owne strength:) they haue left no one corner in their heads vnsearched, to set them out to the world in their best colours: indeed euery man (al­most) [Page 157] as his fancie hath lead him. By that which hath bin said alredy in the sixt chapter, it followeth consequently: that, if vppon their agreement together, (which I neuer looke for) it happen: that their pretēded regiment, shalbe called Synedriū then their new Aldermen, whether they be Princes, Magistrates, Lords, Gentlemen, or (where they want) Coblers, Tinkers, Brokers, or Tapsters: they must bee called (as I suppose) Synedrians: if Councell, then Councellors: if Consistorie, then Consistorians: if El­dership, then Elders: if Assembly, then Assemblistes: if Deaconship, then Deacons: if Church, then Churchi­ans: if Senate, then Senators: and if Synagogue, then Archisynagogians.

To these also, may be added some other: so as you wil content your selues, to see some little more crossing. Pres­byterorum proprio Christianis vocabulo comprehendi pastores, Serranus To. 4. cont. Ies. pa. 118 & doctores, nemo nescit. No man is ignoraunt (saith Serranus) that amongst Christians, this word Priest, doth properly signifie a pastor and doctor, that is, Ministers of the worde. Nay, sayth Cartwright, in effect: that is a lie, by your leaue. The name of Elder most properly agreeth to those, which haue the gouern­mēt only. Lib. 3. pag. 33. And Trauerse his scholler, wil not shrinke frō him an inche. Those Elders (saith he) which onely rule, proprio no­mine presbyteri appellantur, Dis. eccle. p. 124 if you will speake properly, are to bee called Priests, or Elders. I thinke he meaneth, amongst Chri­stians. It seemeth also, that they bee called not simply El­ders: but Elders of the people. For Beza is resolute, that, adiecto epitheto, the rulers in the Synedrion, or Consistorie, had this addition to their names, Annot. Math. 16. 21. & 26. 25. to be tearmed, seniores populi, El­ders of the people: with whom, notwithstanding his credit, an other incountreth: a Bussard in respect, but yet a fellow as confident as Beza, saying: Seniores populi non erant ex ec­lesiastico [Page 158] Synedrio, I.B. polit. p. 100 sed ex ciuili. The Elders of the people were not of the ecclesiasticall Senate, but of the ciuill. By whose iudge­ment then, our Elders may not haue that epithete, which Beza affirmeth was due vnto them.

Besides, if we shall beleeue Beza, & Cartwright, &c. these Elders are cōmended vnto vs in the scriptures, Annot. Phil. 1.2. Act. 20.28. vnder the name of Bishops, T.C. Counterp. 169. and so we may call them. From whom Trauerse (if he be the author of the defence of ecclesiasticall gouern­ment,Def. pa. 61. 62. & of the booke of ecclesiasticall discipline) first dis­senteth: & then secondly also, frō himselfe. For in his said defence, hee is most peremptorie: and bringeth diuerse reasons for it: vz. That ruling Elders are not comprehended vnder the name of Bishop: Disc. 122. & yet in his other booke, he saith generally of all their Elders, both Ministers, and Rulers. They are said [...] to gouern, rule, & ouersee. Now if their dutie set downe in the scriptures, be [...] their office is surely [...] & the word [...] must needes comprehend them, aswell as the Ministers of the word.

But, that I may omit their thwarting; thus the streame runneth,Lib. 3. pa 34. from Cartwright and Iunius fountaines. The titles of Christs vicars, and of good prelates, do both agree (saith Cart­wright) vnto the Elders, Eccles. lib. 2. c, 2. which onely gouerne. And Iunius thus in effect. The scriptures do call, both Ministers & Elders in­differently: 1. Cor. 14.32. sometimes Prophets, (as The spirites of the Prophets are subiect to the Prophets:) sometimes Episcopos, id est, inspecto­re [...]. Act. 20.28. Bishops, Phil. 1.1 that is, ouer-seers (as Take heed to your selues, and to all the flocke, 1. Tim. 3.2. whereof the holy Ghost hath made you ouer-feers, Tit. 1.7. to feed the Church of God, &c.) sometimes rulers, or laborers; & ru­lers: 1. Thef. 5.12. (as We beseech you brethren, that you know them which la­bour among you, and are ouer you in the Lord:) sometimes duc­tores, Heb. 13.17. seu duces; leaders or captaines: (as Obey them that haue the ouer-sight of you, and submit your selues, for they watch for your [Page 159] soules, as they that must giue account, &c.) sometimes pastors: (as,Ephes 4.11. He therefore gaue some to be Apostles, & some Prophets, and some Euangelists, & some Pastors and teachers:) sometime El­ders: Act. 14.23. (as When they had ordained them Elders in euery Cittie,Rom. 15.16.&c.) sometimes [...] ▪Ministers: (as Where Paul saith thus of himselfe, that I should bee a Minister of Iesus Christ toward the Gentiles, ministring the Gospel of God, &c). sometime [...] Ministers: Act. 26.16. (as, I am Paule whom thou persecutest: but arise, and stand vpon thy feete: for I haue appeared vnto thee for this purpose, to appoint thee a Minister, and a witnesse, both of the things which thou hast seene, and of the things in the which I wil appeare vnto thee:) sometime deacons, that is Ministers; as, Who is Paule▪ Who is Apollo▪ But the Ministers by whome yee beleeued, &c. And againe, the same Iunius, in the booke before noted,Eccles. p. 119. of both their kinds of Elders:Math. 5.15. Sunt salterrae, sunt lux mundi in sua ecclesia singuli: They are the salte of the earth, they are the light of the worlde, euery one of them in their seuerall Churches.

If Augustine, Ambrose, Ierome, Chrisostome, and all the rest of the ancient Fathers were now aliue, and should vnder­stand to what purpose these scriptures were thus alledged; would they not wonder, that euer any men should lyue, that durst with such boldnes, and so little shew of truth, so abuse the word of God, themselues, their readers, and all the world▪ Nay, I am perswaded; that if M. Caluin himself (that first deuised these officers) were now aliue, he wold be greatly ashamed of this corruption, & so notorious an abuse. But God hath dealt with them already: according to his wonted custome in such a case. For they are won­derfully diuided, and doe confound themselues, in their expositions of the seuerall places; as when I come vnto that point, it shall in some sort appeare.

[Page 160]But of all these con­fused number of names, for their Elders, if I were asked vpon which I gessed they would in time most properly insist: I feare it wil proue to be that, of Arch-synagogians, or of Arch-rulers of their saide go­uernment,Counterp. p. 12. deduced, as th­ey confesse, from the synagoge. For (saith the Counter-poison) God hath ordained for the rulers of the synagogue, Churchrulers, or Elders. Likewise Cart­wright. The chiefe of the synagogue, are the same, which wee call Elders, & ancients of the church. And Beza also. Archisynago­gi dicuntur, Lib. 2. pa. 444. qui particularium ecclesiarum negotia administra­bant, & propterea censētur ecclesiae nomine Mat. 18.17. They are called Arch-rulers of the synagogue, who did manage the affaires of particular churches; & are therefore in Math. 18. tearmed by the name of the church. Lib. 3. pa. 637. But the said Cartwright passeth. Their Synagogues (saith he) being the same, that our churches, in euery one of them, beeing not one, but many princes: the vrging of that example, bringeth diuers chiefe gouernors, or Archbishops intoc­uerie particular church. His meaning is (as I take it) that if they be vrged too farre, & so constrained to speake their consciences (which peraduenture as yet they would bee loth to do) they must thē of necessitie deale plainly with vs, & tell vs roundly; that all the Elders which they looke for (esteeme them as wee list, that haue no such diuine in­sight into them) they are indeed, and must be; our chiefe gouernors, our Archbishops, and our Princes.

Surely such artizans, & meane persons, as should occu­pie these roomes in most parishes, if they had their plat­forme, might well haue been contented with his former titles giuen vnto them: of Christs vicars, & Gods prelats; though they had wanted these. But it would be remem­bred, that if such as are vnder the Ministers, bee of this great honor: what are we to think of the Ministers them­selues, [Page 161] that are so far aboue them. I had forgotten to tell you how Cartwright affirmeth, though falsly: that the word priest­hood is sometime taken in the ecclesiasticall writers, Lib. 2. pag 370. for this kinde of Elders. Whereby I coniecture, that their graund pastors, (es­pecially, in such cities as haue many parishes vnder one con­sistorie,) must be, if not summi sacerdotes, the high priests: yet at the least, principes sacerdotum, the princes of Elders: or rather, re­ges regum, kings of kings.

But by what titles they will maintaine their owne greate preheminence aboue their Elders, I do not greatly regard it. This is strange, that after so many disputations, and libels, a­gainst the names of our Archbishops, to prooue them Anti­christian,Annot. Act. 13. or vnlawfull, (wee hauing but two of them in all England) they would now (if they might be suffred) impose vpon vs,Lib. 2. pag. 407. seuen or eight Archbishops in euery parish. What a wringing & wresting is there of this word [...] by Beza, Cart­wright, and others: as being for the imperiousnes of it, vnmeet to agree with the Ministers of the Gospell▪ And yet now, their new deuised Elders (worthy men for the most part I warrāt you) may euery one of them, lawfully be called an Archbishop. I would gladly know for my learning, why [...], ioined to this worde Bishop; should be rather an vnlawfull name for some Minister, than whē it is ioined to all their own Synagogians, or Church-rulers? They that dare propound such ridiculous things, as these are, & defend thē: may say & maintaine what they list. Shomakers, Peuterers, Barbers, Pinners, Pointers, & Painters, (being chosen to be of this synagogue) to become presently therby, our pastors, leaders, watchmē of our souls, Christs vicars, Gods prelats, Bishops, & Archbishops, conti­nuing their occupations, & hauing nothing to doe with the word & sacraments: would haue been accounted by all the auncient Fathers, to haue beene, rather the conceit of some [Page 162] frantike madde men, than of any, that had either learning, or iudgement.

I Thinke it can hardly be shewed in the scrip­tures: that God himselfe did euer ordaine any speciall officers, either ecclesiastical, or ciuill: but he likewise appointed, what ma­ner of men they should bee, in respect of their abilities and vertues, for their fayth­full discharging of them. Which maketh mee, more than to suspect, that these pretended Elders, for all the outcries made in their behalfe: to be indeed but counterfaits; in that they cannot agree among themselues, where they are described. The forme of praier made at Geneua, Learned dis. pag. and practised in Scot­land, and with diuers alterations, offered not long since, to haue beene (by parliament) established in England, & others that follow them, do thus describe them. The Elders must bee men of good life, and godly conuersation, without blame and all suspi­tion, carefull for the flocke, wise, and aboue all things, fearing God.

And for all these qualities, the chiefe place alledged (as I thinke) is out of Numbers: Numb. 11. 16. 17. 24. 25. where it is saide, That God appoin­ted Moses to choose 70. men of the Elders of Israell to beare the bur­then of the people with him: which Moses hauing performed, the Lord, according to his former promise, tooke of the spirite, which was in Moses, and put it vpon the 70. ancient men, & when the spirit rested vpon them, they prophecied, and did not cease. Out of which words, I find nothing for thē: except they wil haue them Prophets. But I do here dispute nothing, let thē speak for thēselues. Welsurely, then saith a discouerer of vntruths, [Page 163] that came lately from Scotland: Pag. 8.6.8. They are ignoraunt in the cause of Christes gouernment, that will affirme these were Eccle­siasticall officers. The very place it selfe, and all the circumstan­ces thereof, doe prooue them ciuile. And where it is said that the seuenty Elders prophecied, it can no more prooue them to belonge to the gouernement of the Church, then the like gift bestowed v­pon Saul can make him a Church officer.

Bannosius, he relieth not vppon the booke of Numbers, for this matter: but if you will be content with Exodus, he can fet thē thence with a wet finger: marry you must haue it by way of collection. Si ex praecepto Domini &c. If by the Lords commandement the gouernours of the common wealth of the Hebrewes, were men of courage, fearing God, men dealinge truely, hating coueteousnes, multo magis tales esse debent Presby­teri &c. Much more these Elders ought to be such valiant men. In good time. And other place out of the old Testament for this purpose he nameth not any: which sheweth he was brought to a very low ebbe.

There is a description of the visible Church, which (they say) was printed at Rochell: Wherein these Elders are thus described. They must be of iudgment and wisedome, endued with the sprite of God, able to discerne betweene cause and cause, betweene plea and plea &c: and to that end, besides the place of Numbers mentioned, they quote another out of the Chronicles, where Iehosophat, speaking of the iudges of the high Court,2. Chro. 19.9 10. for all causes at Ierusalem saith: thus shall yee doe in the seat of the Lord, faithfully and with a perfect heart, and in euery cause that shall come vnto you, from your brethren that dwell in theyr cities: betweene bloud and bloud, betweene lawe and precept, statutes and iudgement yee shall iudg them. Where I note, the warines of these fellowes, in attributing vnto their Elders Commission to discerne betweene cause and [Page 164] cause, plea and plea; that they leaue out purposely, be­tweene bloud and bloud &c. For the which Beza will not giue them any thankes at all: hauing deuised a tricke (as af­ter it shall appeare) how they may deale in those matters, aswell as in the other. Indeed in all alike. But this place ra­ther serueth to shew their opinions, what causes the Elders are to be Iudges in, then to describe their qualities, other­wise then that they must be faithfull men. They will play smal play befor they sit out. And thus you haue what they bring to this end (for ought I finde) out of the old Testa­ment: with such good agreement as hath beene declared, Which causeth me to imagin that the Lord neuer thought of any such officers, in the time of the Law. For if he had: Moses surely (in mine opiniō) would haue described their qualities: aswell as he did the 70. Iudges and other officers (to diuers purposes) by him appointed, and not haue lefte them (especially such noble Prelates and Cherubins) to be described in this sort: hit I, misse I, by gesse.

But peraduenture, there are more pregnant places in the new Testament, to supply some want in Moyses: where­uppon they doe iumpe with one consent and good agree­ment together. I would be glad to see that: but he liueth not, I am perswaded that shall euer see it. When proude men dissent: they are hardly reconciled in matters of wit and learning.De polit. 71. Let vs try them. The qualities required to bee in an Elder, are sette downe by the Apostle in the Epistle to Titus (saith Bannosius) and some others, in these wordes thus in effect. An Elder must be vnreprouable, the husbande of one wife, Tit. 1. hauing faithfull children, which are not slaundered of riotte, neyther are disobedient, not frowarde, not angry, not gi­uen to wine, no striker, not giuen to filthy lucre, but harbarous, one that loueth goodnesse, wise, righteous, holy, temperate, &c. [Page 165] Nay (sayth Caluin) though there be two kindes of Elders,Cal. in Tit. yet contextus statim ostendit, hic non alios quàm Doctores intel­ligi, hoc est, qui ad docendum ordinabantur: The Text doth shew, that here no other are to be vnderstood, but Doctors, that is those that were ordayned to teach. Ecclesiasticus pag. 64.68. With Bannosius agreeth Iuni­us, T. C. lib. 3. pag. 35. and with Caluin, Cartwright. So that as yet we haue no certainty. But let Beza be heard, and then all shall be well. You shall heare,Iunius Ec­clesiasti. 6 8. both Beza and Iunius iointly. They are out of all doubt, that where the Apostle in his Epistle to Timothy, Beza annot. 1. Tim 3.1. doth describe the qualities, which are required in a Bishop, there also and in the same wordes, he setteth out the Elder in like maner: For that the word (Bishop) doth cō ­prehend in that place, both a Minister of the word, and the ruling Elder also. Now then we haue him: and because we haue beene so long seeking for him, you shall haue him at large, according to these mens opinions. He that desireth the office of a ruling Elder, desireth a good worke. A ruling Elder therefore must be vnreprooueable, the husbande of one wife, watching, sober, modest, harbarous, apt to teach, not giuen to wine, no striker, not giuen to filthy lucre, but gentle, no fight­er, not couetous, one that can rule his own house honestly, hauing children vnder obedience with all honesty: for if any man can not rule his owne house, howe shall hee care for the Churche of God? Hee may not bee a young Scholler, least hee being puffed vppe, fall into the damnation of the Diuell. Hee must also bee well reported of, euen of them that are with­out, least hee fall into rebuke and the snare of the Diuell. There is not a Shoomaker in Geneua, but he is such a one ye may be sure: and in England you may haue a dozen of them in euery parish.

But may we now indeede, rest in these mens opinions▪ Doe what you list. But Caluin and Trauerse are directly [Page 166] against them. For Caluin neuer comprehendeth, the only ruling Elder, vnder the word Bishop: and vppon this place of Timothy, he maketh Pastor & Bishop, words of one sig­nification: as he doth also vpon the 1. to the Philippians, and the first to Titus: which quite excludeth this counterfaite Elder, from shrowding himselfe here vnder the Bishop. With Caluin also agreeth herein,Disc. Eccle. fol. 57.58.65. and 101. Pag. 61. our peragon Trauerse, e­uen in all the places cited: as likewise the author of the defēce of Ecclesiastical discipline (whether it be Trauers or not) saying: they cannot be here cōtayned vnder the name of BB.

And where shall we then finde them? It is a plaine case (saith Trauerse:) where should we finde them but where they are▪ Ibidem. They are contained in that Epistle to Timo­thy, vnder the name of Deacons. Nay sayth maister Cal­uin, where Sainct Paul speaketh of Deacons, quod alij ad Presbyteros referunt Episcopo inferiores, caret fundamento: in that some referre it to Elders that are inferior to the Bishop, it wanteth a foundation. Restat vt Diaconos intelligamus, quorum mentionem facit Lucas Act 6. . Sunt qui curam pauperum habebant. It remaineth that wee vnderstande those Deacons of whome mention is made Act. 6. And those were they that had the care of the poore cōmitted vnto them. But now commeth in M. Cartwright on the behalfe of his pupill Trauers: saying in effect. It is true that Caluin was a learned man in his time:Lib 3. pag. 34 but yet herein Trauers doth seeme to bee of the sounder opinion. These be his wordes: In the worde Deacons (as it is well obserued in the booke of the Discipline of Englande) the Apostle comprehendeth both the Elders, and those which had the Almes to dispose. Indeede maister Cart­wright is a fellow for a dead lifte. For if I vnderstand him wel, he wil haue his Elders described, both vnder the nams of Bishops & of Deacons: as though they were, a thirde [Page 167] thing compounded of them both.Lib. 3. p. 54. I haue shewed (saith he) that both they and their office be there: which is the same with the Bishops: that onely of teaching excepted. But Iunius, when he sorteth them with the ministers of the worde, leaueth not out that point as impertinent to them:Eccles. 69. but maketh thē [...], apte to teach. From whome (as I take it) Beza dissenteth not much,Anno. 1. Cor. 12.8. when speaking of these Elders, hee saith: qui & ipsi interdum doctrinae verbo praeerant, euen they somtimes did preach the word. Thes. Geneu. pa. 217. And Abraham Henric, is direct: presbyteris, peculialiter sic appellatis, verbi quoque administratio commissa est, &c. The administration of the word is also giuen to the Elders peculiarly so called, &c: but to another end then to Pa­stors and Doctors: vz: vt iudicijs ecclesiasticis, praeeuntibus pastoribus praesint: that next after the Pastors they might beare rule in their ecclesiasticall iudgementes, or courtes of iustice.

This Henric may meane well: but to my seeming hee doth not well expresse himselfe. Maister Beza can open this point more directly. Indeede he hath so opened it, as he hath already almost vndone his Elders. For now by his statutes of Geneua, the twelue Elders, must all be preachers. This mysterie was neuer reuealed, so directly to the world before, as I thinke till nowe of late. The Elders wee speake of, (saith Maister Beza) do feede the church with do­ctrine, being ioyned with the Pastors and Doctors, in the exercise of ecclesiasticall iudgementes. Yea what differeth that publicke preaching of the word, which is proper to Pastors, frō that which is exercised in the Consistories, according as it is meete, that some should be conuinced, some instructed, some reproued, or some com­forted, sauing in this, that the Pastor preacheth publickly to the as­sembly, and the Elders but to priuate men, being called into the Consistory? If their Pastors preach no better in their Pul­pets, [Page 168] then I imagine their Artizan preachers doe, in their Elderships: peraduenture he that should say their preach­ing were but pratling, might sometimes say it truely.

But what should we respect any of these fellowes: let vs followe Cartwright and Trauerse (in the point they agree in) and through their spectacles, beholde: howe these El­ders are to be furnished, vnder the shadowe of Deacons. They must bee honest, not double tongued, not giuen to muche wine, neither to filthy lucre, hauing the mystery of faith in pure conscience:Tim. 3.8.9.10 11.12.13. And let them first be proued, then let them minister if they be found blamelesse: Likewise their wiues must be honest, not euill speakers, but sober and faithfull in all thinges. They must be the husbandes of one wife, and such as can rule their children well, and their owne housholdes. For they that haue ministred well, get themselues a good degree, and great liberty in the faith, which is in Christ Iesus.

And thus you haue your Elders, with their compleat ar­mour, layd out before you: after this and that mans fashi­on, agreeing as iustly, as Germanes lippes together. But I may not omit one thing, before I ende this point. It may peraduenture seeme strange vnto you (as surely it doth to me) that anie men of iudgement: (whether they will haue their Elders indued, with those qualities that were required in the 70. chapter of Exodus, or in the Iudges, Num­bers, 2. or in the Bishops, or in the Deacons, Tim. 3. and Tit. 1.) should but once dreame, that there might so many men of such vertue and qualities be found in a kingdome, as might supply euery parish with six, or eight of them. But I will tell you what Cartwright faith for remedie heereof:T.C. lib. 1. pag. 180. beleeue him as your discretion shall direct you. When men are called (faith hee) to a lawfull and profitable calling, and especially to a publicke calling, God doth poure his giftes on that [Page 169] person, which is called so plentifully, that he is as it were sodainly made a new man. An excellent conceite. But to see my sim­plicitie. I euer thought, that where God appointeth, what maner of men (for their giftes and qualities) shoulde bee chosen, to such and such offices, there ought euer especiall care to be had, that none destitute of them, as neer as might be, should be admitted vnto them. And if I haue been de­ceaued herein, I maruaile howe it commeth to passe, that many men vnfit for their giftes, being vpon diuerse occa­sions more necessarie, then can happen for the choyse of their Elders, admitted into the ministery, such wants haue not been so plentifully supplied, and they sodainly become new men. But the rule holdeth of likelihood, only for their Elders. Ah hee meaneth (I suppose,) that God will take off the spirite, that is in him and the rest of their Pastors and doctors, and put it vppon them, as he did from Mo­ses, for the 70. Numb. 2. and this you may beleeue when you heare them all prophesie. Surely (for ought I can see,) they haue not any suche aboundant store of the giftes of Gods spirite, that they can spare much to bee taken from them, except they shall be left wholly destitute. But it were good wee sent into Scotland, and some other Coun­tries, to learne more certainly of this straunge metamor­phosis, before we be too light of credite. For as I take it, we may not looke for such extraordinary matters nowe. And besides, I feare, if their Elders should receiue any portion of that spirite, which is in some reformers; it will be of that which offred himselfe, to be a lying spirite in the mouthes of certaine Prophets: and then it were better for vs, they neuer prophesied.

THere hath been an auncient distincti­on, betwixt the Priests and the peo­ple: the one sorte being tearmed the Cleargie, and the other the laitie. Which notwithstanding Beza misli­keth: Veteres patres cleri nomen ad col­legium Ecclesiasticorum ministrorum transtulerunt. Annot. 1. Pet. 5.3. The auncient fathers did transferre the name of Cleargie vnto the Colledge of Ecclesiasticall Ministers, &c. but they ought not to haue done so. If they had been as wise as Beza is: it is like they would not. The pretence of this reproofe, which is made by diuerse, is saide to bee in re­spect of Gods people, for that they are thereby iniuried. And haue they deuised, a way how to recompence them▪ Surely they haue. But it is, as meane a one, as euer you knew. For they deuide all Christians, into Church-Mi­nisters, or officers: and into Idiots. Christ saide not [...] to the Idiotes: (that is vnto all the people:) whose sinnes yee re­mitte, &c. Sed ecclesiastica authoritate praeditis: but to suche as are endewed with Ecclesiasticall authoritie, Beza de ex­com. pag. 54 (sayth Beza.) Againe, touching the same wordes. Sunt iudicialia haec verba. De excom. pag. 60. Ideoque ad [...] id est, nullo publico munere in Ecclesia fungentes, (quos postea laicos vocarunt,) minimè pertinentia. They are iudiciall phrases. And therefore doe [Page 171] not appertayne vnto Idiots, that is, to those that haue no pub­licke office in the church, whō afterward they called Lay-men. Laicis postea hos vocarunt quibus oppositi sunt Ecclesiastici. After they called them Lay-men to whom the Ecclesiasticall were opposite. And because hereof great abuse did growe: they will now renew the former distinction.

So now as many, as are neyther pastors, Doctors, El­ders, nor Deacons, be they Kings, Councellors, Lawy­ers, or whatsoeuer, they must satisfie themselues, with the names of Idiots. And if you will knowe the verye na­ture of the worde Idiota, Ann. 1. Cor. 14. mayster Beza will also tell you. Idiots are quasi priuati as it were priuate men. But more fully in another place. By the name of Idiots, (propriè signifi­cantur plaebeij & viles &c. Ann. Act. 4.13 Iam veró quia eiusmodi homines sere indocti sunt & rerum imperiti, idcirco factum est vt Idio­tae dicātur, qui minimè ingeniesi sunt aut intelligentes:) Plebei­all and base persons are properly signyfied. Now therefore because such men are for the most part vnlearned and ignorant, it is come to passe, that they who are not ingenious or men of vnder­standing, are called Idiots. Wise men, and Idiots. And did S. Paule make this diuision? well: I feare that they themselues will proue the Idiots. But in the meane time, the state of the Lande, that hath no place in your regi­ment, is beholden vnto them, for marshalling them so discreetly.

Besides this distribution, they allow also of another; wherein all the sayd Idiots are termed ciuile men: and their wise gouernours ecclesiasticall persons. A name as strange, almost for Artizans and men of trade, (such as before are mentioned) as the former of Bishops and Archbishops. And yet it must needes bee so. For sayth [Page 172] Cartwright: Lib. 1. pag. 183 Heb. 13. 17, Lib. 3.69 For so much as they were Church officers and [...]uer the people in matters pertayning to God, & such as watched o­uer the soules of men, though they were no pastors to preach the word, yet they were no laymen (as they terme thē) but ecclesiasti­call persons. Which if anye man will deny, let him denye al­so, Counterpoys. pag. 1 [...]0. that two and two makes foure. For, sayth the Counter­poyson: Whosoeuer is called with due examination and triall; with the consent of those to whom it appertayneth, and are with fasting and prayers, or with prayers onely and with imposition of handes, separated or put a part to that office, they are eccle­siasticall persons, and not Lay-men (as they terme them.)

But Beza (as I take it) is plaine in this poynt: Beza de exco. pag. 112. and to our men verie opposite. For sayth hee, in proofe of his Elders: Certè nisi &c. Surely except some men chosen out of the body of the whole assemblie, should sit in that compa­nye, by whom the whole Church is gouerned: The generall name of the church would scarsly agree to that company: with which name notwithstanding it is adorned, because through that meanes, men being chosen out of all the partes of the whole Church, they might represent the whole church. By which wordes, his meaning eyther must needes be, that for the better representation of the whole church, there must be Lay-men, (as wee call them) aswell of the Eldership, as Ministers; or that their Elders ought to bee chosen out of the companie of men, of euery trade and vocation; which cannot in any wise agree to the practise of Gene­ua, where men of the state, and Councellors, are onely chosen. Now if vppon their choyse, as being Idiots before, they are become wise; So of Lay-men, they are presentlie made Ecclesiasticall persons: then the re­presentation of both the estates, is drowned: by which meanes theyr Eldershippe might loose the name of [Page 173] the Church, or at the least scarsely continew it.

Heere commeth also further into my minde, another opinion of Bezaes, fitte for this place: which in my iudgement doth mightely thwart not himselfe onely, but all his abettors for erecting vp of their Eldershippe. He sayth,De. excom. pa. 53. when Christ vsed these words: Tell the church &c. Math. 18. In discipulorum persona legitimum ec­clesiae nomine consensum congregatū intelligebat, he vnderstood, in the person of his Disciples, a lawfull Senate or company as­sembled together in the name of the church. And in his confes­sions,Cap. 5. sect. 43 hee also affirmeth; that the keyes of the kingdome of heauen were giuen, omnibus verè presbyteris; to all true El­ders, including his only ruling Elders, in persona Apostolo­rum, in the person of the Apostles. Which opinion of his, first ouerthroweth his collection: that there must needes be vnpriestly Elders, for the sayd representation by him de­uised. For here wee see, the Church represented suffici­ently in his iudgement. Math. 16.19. and 18. v. by Christs disciples and Apostles, they being all of them ministers of the word, and sacraments, to whom Christ there spake. Secondly, if the Apostles, in receauing the keyes, sustayned the person of all true priests: and if Pe­ter, when Christ saide vnto him, vnto thee, I will giue the keyes, sustained the person of the Apostles: It followeth that one man maye sustaine, the person of all Bezaes true Elders or Eldership: and so consequently, it is not a­gainst the word of God, if wee saye, Tell the Churche, that is, tell the Bishops vz. one man.

But to leaue Beza to his owne pleasure, both to saye, and do what he list: especially in his owne Consistory. And yet truelie it were good reason, if their Elders bee Christs vicars, Gods prelates, Bishops, & Archbishops, [Page 174] they should be accounted ecclesiasticall persons: and I am perswaded that the one is as true as the other.

AT Geneua, their Elders are simplye chosen, but for a yeare. In the French church in London, they are elected (as I heare) for three yeares. It was thus ordered in the Nationall Councell of the Bel­gicke churches at Hage 1586. Senio­res et Diaconi duos annos inseruiant: quotannis numerus dimi­diatus commutabitur &c. Let the Elders and Deacons serue two yeares, and the halfe of them shall be chaunged euery yeare, &c. The elect of elder. Scotland followeth the Geneua order (if their booke bee true of the forme of their praiers printed 1584.) and doth retayne them, but for a yeare. And then euerie man as hee was before. A prelate, Christes vicar, a Bi­shop, an Archbishop, an ecclesiasticall man, this yeare; & a plaine Dauber, a Thatcher, a Taylor, a Cobler, and a Tinker, the next yeare: and so by turnes, backwarde and forward, if any of the same persons shall be diuers times chosen, as often as it falleth out amongst them. What▪ election and ordination by triall, praiers, fastings, & im­position of handes, and all but for a yeare▪ It maketh mee to remember a saying of Tertullian in the like case:Of prescript. a­gainst Ordinationes eorum temerariae, leues, inconstantes &c. Theyr ordinations are rash, light, and inconstant, &c. Alius hodiè Episcopus, alius cras, &c. Hodiè Diaconus qui eras lector, hodiè [Page 175] presbyter qui cras laicus. This day one is a Bishop, and to morrow another &c. To daye a Deacon, and to morrow a Rea­der, he that is a priest or an Elder to daye is the next day after become a Lay-man &c,

Nowe, if they will say: that they haue some rules, out of the scriptures for this their mutabilitie: (as I trust they will be ashamed to saie otherwise) & that (as Cartwright sayth,T.C. Lib. 1.) These Elders did not florish in Constantines time: shall wee thinke, that the Bishops in the Councell of Nice, when they went about the matter that Paphnutius with­stoode, did euer intende, that such an Elder or ecclesiasti­call person (becomming a layman againe after a yeare or two,) should vppon his choyse to that office, frō thence foorth, not companie with his wife which he had mar­ried before? It maie peraduenture bee answered, that Christes order for this annuall or bienniall change, was through corruption altered, before that Councell; and growen to bee a continuall office. Indeed they may bee bolde with those times: to speake of them, as they list. But what will you thinke if nowe the matter beginne to be called in question: whether Geneua first, and then after, whether other their reformed churches of the Lowe Countries, and of Scotlande haue done well, in making these Elders but temporall officers, rather then Ministers of the worde. Certainelye a Learned man of that humor, tolde mee playnlie, that both Geneua, and the rest were thought by diuerse graue men to haue done amisse therein. And per­aduenture by degrees, you shall see some alteration a­bout that matter. For the Bretheren of Englande, in their subscribed Discipline, do beginne to make some [Page 176] qualification that way (as it seemeth vnto mee) when they saye: Presbyteri non sunt perpetui, neque tamen fa­cilè moueantur. Let not the Elders bee perpetuall, nor yet easilye remoued. They must not bee perpetuall: but yet; no time is prescribed. So as, they may continew Elders by this rule: through the strength of one ordi­nation, twentie yeares, if the rest of their compa­nie bee so pleased. And Carolus Gallus in his booke of Discipline is already come to the poynt: affirming directlie, Presbytero Ecclesiae post biennium aut triennium stationem suam deserere non licere: That it is not lawfull for an Elder of the Church after two or three yeares to giue ouer his charge, but must contynue the same vsque admor­tem, vntill his death. Which assertion hee taketh vp­pon him to prooue, after the manner of these men: by many arguments (such as they are) both out of the olde, and newe Testament: with whome agreeth Bannosius, De polit. ciuit. dei. &c. 71. alledging this old Cannon: which prouideth Ne bis presbyter ordinetur, et ne quispiam bis baptizetur: That a Priest or Elder bee not twise ordayned nor any twise baptised. For (sayth hee) Ordinatio est perpetuae functi­onis consecratio, quemadmodum baptismus perpetui foederis cum Deo initi est testificatio: Ordination is the consecration of a perpetuall function, as baptisme is a contynuall testimony or witnesse of our League made with God. This surelye draweth deeplie.

How it will be taken at his handes I knowe not. I am perswaded, that whilest Beza liueth: it will neuer be ad­mitted at Geneua. For so if their twelue Elders did see their authoritie to bee of such continuance: they might paraduenture, hold the six ministers noses to the [Page 177] grindstone. Whereas nowe, they knowing their king­dome, to bee of such small continuance, euen as they please the ministers: doe suffer them to raigne and doe what they list; fearing what afterclapps might light vpon them, the yeare after: if they should doe otherwise. Be­sides, if they should be offices of such endurance, those princes, noblemen, and gentlemen, that would be con­tent paraduenture, for a yeare to become ecclesiasticall persons, amongst them, and execute their office (for­sooth) in their owne persons: would be twise aduised, how they left their other affaires; to attend vppon that worshipfull seruice. So as what will be the issue amongst them herein: god knoweth. For my part, I doe not: and therefore I will leaue them to their consultations, what course they were best to take, for their owne credits: & proceed to the qualities, wherewithall they affirme, that their Elders (by the worde of god) must needes be in­dued.

FOr my better enterance into this poynt followinge; I will beginne with some of their owne groundes. Thea gouern­ment of the church (saith Martin) must be by these officers and offices alone, Mart. lib. a. and by no o­ther: which the Lord hath set downe, and li­mited in his word. And the demonstrator: Corah Datha [...] and Abiram were punished, hauinge no warrant of that they [Page 178] tooke in hand. A very good caueat for their Elders. Let vs then see, what those particular duties are, which they ascribe vnto them. But here you must vnderstand, that euery parish is to be deuided into seuerall Tribes, according to the number of their Elders: euery Elder hauing one of them assigned vnto his charge. Out of diuers of their books but especially de disc. eccle. fol: 121. The iudgment of a learned. And their office is: if any thinge be done amisse priuatly within their compasses, to reproue or correct the offenders priuatly: but if the offender be obstinate, or the offence publick, they must bring them to the Eldership. Secondly: they must know euery house and particular person in the parish, that they may enforme the ministers of their estate. If any straū ­ger come to dwell within their seuerall tribes, they must signifie the same vnto the pastor, that hee may examine his religion. Thirdly;Beza: de exco: pag. 102. Lawes of Geneua. if any infants are to be baptised, they must likewise giue the pastor notice therof. Fourthly; at the time of the communiō, they must all ioyntly see, that no excommunicate persons, come into the church: likewise helpe and assist the pastor, (at Geneua the Elder ministreth the cuppe): take heede that none come to the Lords table, whose religion and honesty should not be know­en vnto them, and with whom the pastor and Doctor, should not haue dealt before. In general tearmes their whole duety is to helpe, to informe and to aide the pastors and Doctors, & to haue a vigilant eye to the obseruation of all such ceremonies, lawes, and orders, as they themselues, with their fellow Senators should constitute and ordaine.

Now surely it were a goodly fight, (& I haue occasion, often to repeate it), to see the noblemen, and gentle­men of England, discharginge all these duties, in their owne persons; and especially, ministringe the cuppe at the holy communion. In what reputation shoulde the ministers be; that shoulde haue such eyes, such [Page 179] aiders, such informers▪ What would the people (thinke, you) say, when they should see these noble men and gen­tlemen come to the Pastors with their caps in their hands seuerally, saying: May it please you Sir, there is a stranger come lately to dwell within my Tribe: another, there is a childe to be Baptised within my tribe: another, this and that fellow are obstinate persons, within my Tribe: and altogether (if they know any that presumed to come to the Communion:) Oh Sir, here is a fellow, you haue not spoken withall: and (when I say) the people shoulde see these things &c. on the other side likewise perceaue, and heare their Ministers (as I imagine) giue a nodde with their heads and aunswere vnto them: very well: yee haue done your duties, and we commend you for it: bring this: take away that &c, would they not fall downe think you, and worship these Rabbies? But you must remember al­waies that they hate superiority. Equality, that is it, which pleaseth them. Indeede they talke of an equality amongst themselues: but otherwise they affect no small superiori­ty ouer all men besides.

Well it is meete we should now consider, what proofe they haue: for all these particular dueties, out of the word of God. And here (I pray you) first of all remember, that Beza is brought to this issue: that whether there were any such Elders at all, euer instituted by Moises (from whom they fette them) or not: he hath nothing else to say, but probabile est, it is probable there were such. And muche to the same effect it is, that he bringeth for their seuerall offi­ces. For speaking of them especially, besides that he na­meth onely this one office, (as finding no others in the old Testament): vz. that the duety of the chiefe rulers of the Synagogues was, non admittere ad Synagogas, quos Hieroso­lomitanum [Page 180] [...]indicasset, De excom. pag. 102. not to admit them to the Synagogues, whome the Councell at Ierusalem had cast out: he bringeth but this simple demonstration for the proofe of it. Horum proculdubio partes fuerunt, out of doubt, it was their partes thus to doe: Proculdubio, probabile est: out of doubt, it is probable. Notable proofes. Whosoeuer will take the paines to reade, that parte of his Booke, de Presby­terio: shall finde little else in it, but his probabilities and groundlesse assertions. Sauing that he further saith: there is mention made in the new Testament of gouernors and ruling Elders,Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. 1. Tim. 5. (which we deny with all the ancient fathers to haue any relation to their deuised Elders,) and thereup­on whatsoeuer hath beene thought meete to be the office of rulers, is ascribed belike at Geneua vnto them. The trea­tise is surely vnworthy such a mans, as maister Beza would be accounted.

And vppon the like conceipt also, our Englishe Refor­mers haue taken vppon them to set downe all the former duties mentioned of their Elders: not that they find them in the word of God, but because they fit their turnes, and doe account them necessary to set vp their own kingdom. For proofe whereof,De Discipl. eccles. fol. 121 I wil only trouble you with one mans authority, but that shall be authenticall both with the bro­therhood of England, and also with them of Geneua, where the book for the excellency of it hath been reprinted. The author of that booke hauing at large described the said du­ties, with a kind of so forth, & alia huiusinodi: so as they may adde more when they list; the force of truth doth wringe from him these words, First that all these said duties, speci­atim in Scripturis non exprimantur, are not specially expressed in the Scriptures. Why, then let your Elders remēber your former rule: least for vsurping such offices, as they haue no [Page 181] warrant for, out of the word of God, they perish with Co­rah, Dathan and Abiram. Yea but (saith he) though the Scriptures doe not expresse them, yet that there should bee suche Archrulers with these offices, as were in veteri Iudoeorum Ec­clesia, in the old Church of the Iewes, it greatly tendeth ad ordi­nem, decorum, vtilitatem & fructum Ecclesi [...]: to the order de­cency, profite and fruit of the Church. And what if this be de­nied▪ or who shall iudge whether they be so profitable or not or when will they prooue that the duties mentioned, did belong to the Archsynagogians? And yet for all these vncertainties, or (as Cartwrights terme is) meere beggeries, he proceedeth to another Consistorian demonstration.

There are no other Elders mentioned in the Scriptures, Ibidem. to whont these so profitable duetiés doe appertaine, but these our Elders: therefore I thinke they are to bee referred to them. I thinke: Beholde hee is not certaine. There are no other. When shall that be proued? by the coldnes of his conclu­sion, (considering the mans warm disposition:) it seemeth to me, that if the same things might bee brought to passe, without these Elders, that they ascribe to their offices, they would not much insist to vrge them any longer. Which maketh mee to remember the notable Counsaile, which Gualter gaue to the Bishops of England, 1574. in a Letter of his to the Bishop of Ely ▪ Where prosecuting certaine points of more then popish tyranny, practised by some of his neigh­bour Consistorians, and commending those in Englande, that did oppose themselues to the innouators here, hee gi­ueth this adui se. Ne tamen hi habeant plausibilem calumni­andi occasionem &c. But leaste your disturbers and vnquiete personnes may haue a plausible occasion of slaundering, it is ne­cessary to ordayne, by the, Magistrates authority, a Christian meanes or Discipline for reformation of manners, whereby the [Page 182] Ministers, if theyr liues bee dissolute: the too much libertye of great men, and the corrupt behauiour of the common peo­ple may bee restrained. Nam si id fiat, non habebunt illi quod quiritentur, nisi apertam Imperij affectationem profiteri velint. For if that be done, those persons shall haue no cause to complaine; except they will publikely professe the affectation of the Empire.

It appeareth by diuers letters of Gualters, that the present state of the Church of England, is so depraued beyond the seas by these companions amongst vs: as that it hath beene conceiued by godly men, that wee had no lawes, no good orders, no discipline, but that euery man might doe what he list: which caused him to giue this aduise. Whereas if he had knowne the trueth; hee would rather haue vrged the Bishops, to a more carefull regard, then hetherto they haue had, for the executinge of such lawes, as wee haue made to our hands already, then for the making any new. For the best reformed churches in Europe, may cast their caps (as the saying is) in this respect, at England. Which heapeth a greater iudgement vpon them, that can not bee content to liue quietly, vnder the present gouernement: but do so frowardly, so seditiously, & so fondly seek to di­sturbe the same: and to bringe vnto vs, they know not what, a counterfeite Chimera, without either top, or toe, proportionable to that which is pretended.

But this is by the way. My purpose was to informe you, that for the duties or offices (before so largely ascribed vn­to their Elders, to bee seuerally by them executed in their particular tribes,) they haue no warrant in the woord of God: but are driuen to silly shiftes, their proculdubio, their thinkinges, and (as you haue seene,) in effect, to confesse as much. So that by their owne diuinity, those men that [Page 183] dare take vpon them such offices: are in daunger to perish. Now I will come to those offices, which they affirme they are to execute, with the Pastor and Doctor.

THe Elders (saith maister Cartwright) are ioyntly to execute with the Ministers, T.C. lib. 1. pag. 183. election or choyse, and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiasticall officers. Tush: why omit­teth he ordinatiō ▪ Demo. cap. 7. Iunius eccle. fol. 53. Let it be added out of his demonstrator, and others: to go with the other for company.T.C. li. 2. 1. part: p. 274. Euery officer of the church (saith the Demonst.) he must be ordained by the laying on of the handes of the Eldership Demo. ca. 15.. Indeed heere is now good fellowship. The second is: in excommunication of the stubborne, or absolution of the repentant. The third: is the decision of all such matters, as do rise in the church, eyther touching corrupt manners, or per­uerse doctrine.

A man would haue thought these Elders had been suffi­ciently loaden before: but here is a surcharge with a wit­nesse. I trust their proofes for these thinges are very preg­nant: or else their presumption will be more then palpable. You must not forget: that whether these Rulers in Moses time, did ioyne with the Priestes in the execution of any of their offices, at all or not: Beza though hee labour to seeke out their first institution, and so to finde them, when they were at the best: yet he is driuen to his probabile est, for that point: and can go no further that way. Besides, will they [Page 184] say that in the old testament these their Elders, had to doe in the electing or chosing of Priests, & so consequently in their deposition? Lay it in them or in their voices: to make new Leuites? It is a mockery. Besides: what if their Elder­ships themselues, haue no such authoritie? shall it not in some sorte impaire the credite of their Aldermen? Or if the Ministers, the maisters of the game be cut short: may not their attendantes be contented, though they be some­what abridged?

Lavves of Ge­neua▪At Geneua in the election of their Ministers: the coun­cell of state, hath in effect a negatiue voyce. For after their Ministers, (vpon examination of the partie, and hearing of him preach) haue thought him a meete man for the mini­stery: he must againe preach before some of the Councell: and if the Councel like him not, he cannot be chosen, but is repelled. And as the ciuile magistrate hath there his ordinary authoritie in the electing of ministers: so hath he (when any of them doe incurre the daunger of law) the like authoritie, to de­pose them againe from the Ministery. Ibid. Artic. 23 This were a disgrace in­deed: if our graue Eldership, should be thus ouerruled. But for their Aldermen, in all that action of both sortes: vz▪ ele­ction and abdication: I doe not find them, so much as once mentioned by those lawes: except they be included, in the name of ministers. And then some of their ministers, are dumbe dogges.

By the decrees of the nationall Synode at the Hage: the election of ministers,Synode Hage Art. 4. may not be, by the Consistorie alone, but the Deacons are also ioyned in commission with them, and likewise the Classis: or if there be none, then two or three neighbour-mini­sters. Ibid. And for deposition of any from the ministerie: that is, Penes caetum Classicum: belonging to the Classicall assembly. It seemeth that the Elders (being more in number in eue­rie [Page 185] Eldership then the ministers) beganne to play false play, and shewed some wilfulnesse: so as nowe they must in this sorte be bridled, with a pluralitie of more Priestly voyces. By which meanes, though they seeme to haue some interest in these affaires: yet in effect, it is none at all.

Furthermore,French disc. Art. 4. it is ordered by the great Synode in Fraunce, that a minister may not be chosen, by one onely minister with his consistorie, but by two or three ministers: or if there be a colloquy, by the coll [...]quy, with the consistorie: or els by the prouin­ciall Synode, Art. 10. if it may be. But touching the deposition of any: that is reserued onely to the prouinciall Synode. It should seeme that in these places, they haue not the same word of God, that our men haue. Or otherwise, (if our reformers say truely) that election and abdication doe belong to the Eldership: and that it is as the sinne of Chore, Dathan, and Abiram, for any that are not of the particular Eldership, to intrude themselues, and meddle with the matters which are there to bee handled: and so consequently to take vp­on them to deale in such thinges, as are not prescribed vnto them particularly by the Lord himselfe. Alas in what great daunger are all those Elders, both Classicall and Prouinciall, in swaruing so greatly from our mens plat­forme; to the vnspeakable preiudice of the presbyteriall Aldermen in euerie particular Eldership. I might heere shewe the sillie proofes, which are brought by our refor­mers out of the newe testament, to confirme their iudge­ment. But I haue a more fit place for that: So as nowe I will proceede to that, which followeth of their imposition of handes.

A man, that is no minister to haue an interest in the or­daining of a minister, by imposition of hands: was it euer [Page 186] heard of, by the space of a thousand & fiue hundred yeares in the Church of God? The Papistes at the first did trou­ble vs much with an obiection: that we had no Priests nor Ministers, because wee had no Bishops to ordaine them. Whereupon aunswere was made: that a Priest or Minister of the worde, and a Bishop was all one: and that Luther, Zwinglius, Oecolampadius, and diuerse others being Priests euen after the Popishe order, had therefore authoritie to ordaine ministers. Ma­rke the reason: because they were Priestes. These vnpriestly Elders were not then hatched. If they had: the aunswere woulde haue beene thereby much more strengthened. But will these men bee con­stant in this point? Is imposition of handes allowed of, by them at all:Lib. 3. pa. 232. or not? It is the ordinance of God (saith Cart­wright) and may not for anie abuse bee taken awaie. The Apostles continuall obseruation of imposition of handes, in ordaining of Ministers, Instit. praecepti vice nobis esse debet: ought to bee as a precept vnto vs, (sayth maister Caluin). And manie reasons are brought by the Demonstrator, Demonst. cap. 7. & 9. Disc. ecc. so. 53. and Tra­uerse: for the proofe and profite of the continuaunce of it. Indeede the olde doctrine hath beene, no ordinati­on by imposition of handes, no minister. But all this will not serue the turne: away it must. We are oft cal­led to the example of Scotland: and there the Discipline is so purely practised, that imposition of handes (as a fruitelesse ceremonie) is quite and cleane bannished thence. Heare the historie of the Churche of Scotlande published in the name of their ministerie.Hist. of the Church of Scotl. pa. 557. Albeit the Apostles vsed imposition of handes (in the ordayning of Mi­nisters) yet seeing the myracle is ceased: the vsing of the cere­monie, we iudge it not necessary.

And what ceremony haue they insteed thereof? Surely [Page 187] if I vnderstand them, such a one: as good fellowes doe vse, when they meet at the alehouse: They take them by the handes: and bid them hartely welcome into their society. Iunius who is charged by Thyreus to neglect the Apostolicall order of imposition of handes, doth call this Scottish new order, or where else so euer it is vsed, (if it be vsed in any other place) porrectionem dextr [...]e socie­tatis in caetu presbyterorū, a giuing forth of the right hand of society in the assembly of the Elders. Maister Caluin is dead. And therefore, too them, Cartwright, with your schol­lers. Will you suffer your owne crue, to tread downe gods ordinance in this sort vnder their feete? or if they doe well therein: out with it presently forth of your bookes. But you may not (as one said) yeald in any thing: for feare of discrediting the rest of your deuises.Hart. to Field: It is well. Defend your selfe then and your schollers as well as you can: in that you make imposition of handes a ioynt due­ty to be performed by the Eldership; that is, as well by your only ruling Elders, as by the ministers of the word.

For Maister Caluin will not endure it; but sheweth himselfe to be of a contrary opiniō, & doth withal extort the only place you account of in effect, for your purpose out of your hands, as altogether insufficiēt to serue your turnes. Hoc postremo habendum est, non vniuersam multitudi­nem manus imposuisse suis ministris: C [...]l. inst. lib. 4. Cap. 3. sect. 16. sed solos pastores &c. This also is to bee vnderstood, that the whole multitude did not lay their handes vpon their ministers: but the pastors onely. What is become then of these vnpastoral Aldermē? Quanquam incertum est an plures semper manus imposuerunt nec ne. Ibd. Al­though (saith he) it is vncertaine, whether more then one did alwaies impose their handes or not.

This is much: onely ministers, and vncertaine whe­ther [Page] one or manye? Bring out your euidence Maister Cartwright. But in the meane while giue eare to Maister Caluins reasons.Ibid. It appeareth (saith he) that diuers pastors did lay their handes vppon the Deacons: Paule, and Barnabas: and some other. 2. Tim. 1. Sed Paulus ipse alibi se, non alios complures, Timotheo manus imposuisse commemorat &c. But Paule in an other place reporteth, that he himselfe alone without any other, did lay his handes vppon Timothy. But nowe he pincheth the brotherhood.1. Tim. 4. Nam quod in altera epistola de impositione manuū presbtyerij dicitur &c. For that which is spoken in his other epistle of the imposition of the handes of the Eldership: Ibid. non it a accipio quasi de Seniorum collegio loquatur &c. I take it not as though Paule did speake of the college of Elders: but by these words I vnderstand the ordinatiō it selfe: as though he had said: Fac vt gratia, quam per manuum impositionem recepisti cum te presbyterum creaui, non sit irrita. See that the grace which thou receiuedst by imposition of handes, when I created thee a priest: be not in vaine. Now that this place is thus wrested from you: all the packe of you bring one other out of the newe testament: for your vnsanctified Aldermens imposition of hands. Nay you see allready, that Totnam is almost turned into french: and there is nothing, why our Bishops might not, for any thing that they thēselues doe bring to the contrary, vse imposition of handes.

Besides, all our reformers shiftes in one respecte are hereby cut of. For when we euer alledged for our Bish­ops authoritie in this point, the example of Saint Paule: who saith that Timothy was made priest, by the im­position of his handes: they still would tell vs (but of their own heades without any further warraunt) that he did not so, as by his owne authoritie, but in the name of the Eldership. Which cannot in anie wise be true: [Page] for that which may bee done in their names, may bee done by themselues. In that therfore, they might not doe it themselues: they coulde not depute it to the A­postle. So as it remaineth that he did it, by his owne au­thoritie: or at the least, in the name of the rest, that were ministers of the word; which will not agree with our mens platforme. If here exception be taken to Caluin, as that in some other of his writings, he is of an other minde: you must bee aduertised, that he beginning to write betimes, did in diuers thinges vpon better aduise change his opinion. And therefore in one of his epistles, desireth those that wil reade his workes, that they would first take the paines to reade his institutions; as contei­ninge in them, (for those things there set downe) his ve­rie mind and setled iudgment. But what if Beza doe in sort agree herin with Caluin? Beza. Anno. Surely if I vnderstand him: he doth. For vpon these wordes: Cum impositione ma­nuum presbyterij id est (saith he) ordinis presbyterorum: qu [...] nomine caetus omnis ille significatur, qui in verbo laborabat in ea ecclesia: that is the order of Priestes or Elders: by which name all that company is signified which did laboure in the word in that Church. Disburden then for shame, your counter­fet Aldermen, of this ioint-dutie in your Eldership: or at the leaste, let them rest, vntill you be better resolued a­mongst your selues, howe to imploie them: least yow bring them within the compasse of the punishment of Corah, Dathan, and Abiram, as I haue said before.

T.C. lib. 1.183 Beza Daneus and the rest. COncerning their pretended authoritie, e­quall with their ministers, (for their pro­cedings are by voyces:) in excommuni­cation of the stubborne, and absolution of the repentant, will they trouble them­selues, (thinke you) with any testimonies out of the old testament? Indeede they affirme, that these censures, were resembled there; by the authority of discerning bettwene the cleane and the vncleane, betwene the holy & vnholy, of shutting vp the leprous, and releasinge them, of purginge the vncleane, of cursing (resembling bind­ding:) of blessing (resembling loosing &c.) And be it so. But where is there mention in any such places, that your pretēded Elders, had any authoritie to intermeddle with these matters? Are they not, throughout the whole olde testament; euermore ascribed to Aaron and his sonnes? Nay, might any that were of other tribes, then of the tribe of Leui deale heerwithal? Speake franckly & truly: might they so? Beza could find no answere to this que­stion, but Probabile est, it is probable they might: whereas I am perswaded, there are fewe assertions of greater absur­ditie▪ or of lesse probabilitie. For the Leuites themselues, that were not of the sonnes of Aaron: had nothinge to doe in these thinges.

Discip. eccl. fol. 127. Trauers defininge what suspension is: saith: it is a com­maundement or prohibition of an Elder, of abstaininge for a certaine time from the receauing of the Sacraments. For the [Page 191] proofe wherof,Ibid. he groundeth himselfe vpon this shadow, (as hee termeth it): That by the law the vncleane and vn­circumcised were prohibited the celebrating of the Passeouer, & entrance into the Temple. Which caused (saith hee) Ioiada the priest to appoynt certaine porters to the gates of the Temple. By which testimonies what hee else proueth; then, that his Elders were of the number of these Porters; I finde not.Beza de presb. pag. 102. And that surelye agreeth best, with Bezaes opi­on mentioned. Horum proculdubio partes erant &c. It was out of doubt the dutye of the Arch-rulers of the Synago­gues, not to admitte excommunicated persons into the Syna­gogues.

With which offices, if they of that consorte, will bee content to infeoffe their Aldermen, and goe no further: I see no cause, why any man should greatly enuie them that preferment. But when from dore-keepers they must be so aduaunced, as that they must bee abdicators and comforters, as they terme them: that is more, then vp­on such weake collections is fit to bee allowed of. For where they giue them these iointe offices with the Mi­nister, of abdicating the stubborne, and of consolation of the repentant, if they would speake out, it is as much as though they should saie: that they haue equall autho­ritie with them, of suspension and excommunication, of bindinge and loosing, of retaining and remitting of sinnes. No no, they maie sende them to Parishgar­den, to loose and bind beares, for they are farre vnmeet to haue anie such authoritie ouer mens soules. That those which were not Bishops, or Priestes (that is mini­sters of the word and sacraments) should haue that au­thoritie (which they speake of), is a matter that was ne­uer [Page 192] heard of, in the Church of God for a 1500. yeares. Cartwright in handling this pointe, was able to bring for his purpose, but one pertinent authoritie, in shew, out of all the auncient Fathers: vz. out of Tertullian, of cer­taine Presidents, that shut offenders from praiers in the Congregation: which presidents as hee well knoweth, the same Tertullian saith expresslie, in an other place, were Ministers of the worde and sacraments: in these wordes, (speaking of the Lordes supper): Nec de aliorum manu quàm presidentium sumimus, neyther do wee receaue at the handes of any other, but of the gouernours.

It is worthie the consideration, to see into what ex­tremities, men do commonlie fall; that will presume to builde the Church vppon the straw and stubble, of their owne deuises. All the world cannot perswade the pa­pists, but that the keies of the kingdome of heauen, were onely giuen to Peter, and so to his successors; and that from him the rest of the Apostles were to receaue them, and so must their successors from the Pope. Against whom, we insist, with the auncient Fathers; that what was saide to Peter, Math. 16. Ioh. 20. appertained to them all: as namelie for one reasō; in that, where the keyes were promised to Peter: tibi dabo, I will giue them to thee: when this promise was performed, Christ gaue them vnto all the Apostles alike, and to their successors: Whose sinnes yee remit they shall be remitted, and whose sinnes ye retaine they shall bee re­tayned: which is the true vse of the keyes. Now who are to be termed the Apostles successors, if wee will be­lieue the said auncient Fathers, that were in my opinion as honest, and learned men, as those that oppose them­selues against them? wee must confesse, that they were at the least Ministers of the worde and sacraments, and [Page 193] so we haue pleaded in this cause against the papists.

But now on the other side, the world is so come about: that whereas the papistes doe giue the keies but to Peter only, and so to the Pope: where the auntient fathers doe giue them to all the Apostles equally, and so to their suc­cessors, ministers (as I said) at the leaste: now these newe start-ups, will needes thrust their aldermen into that number, and they must be also the Apostles successors. If men will be seduced wilfully by such falseteachers:Confess. cap 5 sect. 43. they maie. What a ridiculous sayinge is this of Bezaes? That: In persona Apostolorum, the keyes were giuen, Omnibus veris presbyteris, to all true Priests or Elders, including in that number his vnpriestlie Eldermen. Againe vpon these words of christ:nont., Math. 16.19. the keyes &c. Hac metaphorica loquutione sig­nificatur oeconomi potestas (Esa 22▪ 22.) qua funguntur omnes ministri in ecclesia dei vt apparet infra. 18▪ 18. By this metapho­ricall speech is signified that power of Christ mentioned in Esay, the key of the house of Dauid I will lay vppon his shoulders: loe hee shall open and no man shall shut, and hee shall shut and no man shall open: which power all the Ministers in the Church of God doe enioye, as it appeareth in Mathew: Whatsoeuer ye binde in earth shall bee bound in heauen,Annot. math. 18.17, 18.and whatsoeuer ye loose on earth shall bee loosed in heauen. De excom. pa. 61. And vppon that place of Mathew the 18▪ Chapter, and in manie other places; by the Church, and those binders and loosers there spo­ken of, hee vnderstandeth his Eldership, & so consequent­ly aswell his Aldermen, as the Ministers of the worde. Hee that with an open face (to vse Cartwrightes terme) doth affirme that either in Mathew the 16. 15. or in the place of Esay mentioned, these vnpreaching Elders were ment or prefigured: needeth not (I warrant him) at any time a vizard.

[Page 194]Indeed maister Cartwright is not of Bezaes mind here­in. For, (saith he) in Math. 16. and in Ioh. 20. Christ vn­der standeth that euery one of the ministers, Lib. 3. pag. 83. bindeth & looseth by preaching: but the wordes Math. 18.18. cannot bee drawen to the particular person of the minister. Surelye you haue sponne a faire thredde. For if your Aldermen, be not aswell vnderstoode in the wordes of Christ: Vnto thee I will giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen: as in these: Whatsoeuer yee binde on earth shall bee bound in heauen, and whatsoeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen: It will fall out that they will haue no keies either to open or shut withall: except peraduenture you will make your lockes with a springe, and so indeed they maie shutte the dore: but for openinge of it they maie blowe their nailes.

Heere you see Beza and Cartwright opposite: and now you shall haue a fellow to impugne them both, in a Theologicall position printed at Geneua, sette out by Ant. Fayus and maintained there by one Danyell Niellius, Thes. theolo: pag. 243. out of Math. 16.19. thus (saith hee) wee may reason. To them onely the power of binding and loosing is giuen, vnto whom the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are giuen (for to haue binding and loosing is that same, that it is, to haue▪ the keyes of the kingdome of heauen): but vnto Peter the keyes were giuen, and vnto them in whose name Peter aunswereth, Christ de­maunding whom the Iewes sayd hee was. And because they were giuen ratione officij, in regarde of his office: it followeth, that they were giuen to al, qui in veritatis doctrina predicanda sunt ipsis successuri: Who in preaching the doctrine of truth shall succeed them. By these wordes then, their disgui­sed Aldermen must either haue assigned vnto them, the same office that the Apostles had, & be made preachers, [Page 195] or else they may put vp their pipes, and goe shake their eares.Thes. Cene [...]. But yet more plainly we are aduertised, in the same place from Geneua, out of Iohn, 20.23. We may also inferre after this sorte; Christ after hee sent his Apostles as he was sent of the father, he breathed on them the holy Ghost, saying whose sinnes ye remit, they shal be remitted: whose sinnes ye retaine, they shall be retayned. To all them therefore, and onely to them who are sent, that authoritie is giuen: But the Apostles onely are not sent. For it is Christ, who ascending into heauen, gaue to his Church Pastors, and Doctors: and altogether to that end, and for handling that worke. Ephes. 4.11.13. Now, ioyne both these inferences, with that which Beza & Cartwright haue before set downe: and let him (for mee) beare the bell, for a reconciler of contrarieties, that is able in anie proba­ble sorte to make anie one of them, friendes with another, or for euer hereafter to agree together.

And yet I know, that they of Geneua can do much. You must bring them very strange discords, but they will make some harmonie of them. Whereas the confessions of Bo­hemia, of Augusta, and the Apologie of the Church of England, doe a cribe these censures (wee speake of) to the Priestes or Ministers of the word onely: the Geneuians, to make the world beleeue, that (in effect) all the reformed Churches, doe agree with that of theirs, and with those o­ther, that weare her cullors; will needes take vpon them in their annotations, (ioyned to the ende of their harmo­ny), to expoūd the meaning of the said confessions, & how they must be rightly vnderstoode.Harmonia. Sect. 2. As for example, it is committed to the ministers of the word [...] (saith the confes­sion of Augusta): excludere impios, &c. a [...]communione eccle­siae: to exclude the wicked, &c. from the communiō of the church. Nimirum: that is to say: (affirme the Geneuians) ex pres­biterij [Page 196] legitimè congregati fententia, &c. according to the sentence of the Eldership lawfully assembled, whereas it neuer as yet set vp any such Eldership.

Againe, the said confession. Hic necessario, &c. heere the Church must yeeld them due obedience, Ibidem. meaning to the sayde ministers, so excluding the wicked: Nempe (come in the Geneuians) verbi ministris, & senioribus, (that is to say) to the Ministers of the worde, and to the Elders: who were neuer allowed of by that confession to this purpose pretended. The Apologie of the Church of England, hauing shewed that the administration of the keyes, doth onely belong to ministers of the worde, and that Sacerdos, that is, the Bi­shop, (as I thinke hee meaneth) for the execution of these censures, is the iudge: Sacerdos, that is (say the Geneuians) vnus designatus ex pastorum collegio: one chosen out of the Col­ledge of Pastors:Ibidem.Deinde etiam intelligiturpraeire (quum de censu­ris ecclesiasticis agitur) leg [...]tinam presbyterij cognitionem: And furthermore also, let it be vnderstoode, when speache is of the ec­clesiasticall censure, that there goeth before a lawfull determina­tion of the Eldership. Whether the Apologie, haue that meaning, the meanest of any sense at all, may iudge. And thus they deale also, with the Bohemian confession. So that (as I sayd) to serue their purposes, they can make ex quo libet, quid libet, of any thing, what they list. And by these examples, ye may also safely learne, what credite is to be giuen in this cause, both to them, and all the rest of that humour: when they would seeme to alledge eyther scrip­tures, Councels, or Fathers, for their most vnwarrantable, and counterfeit Aldermen.

But if it were graunted vnto them, for a moneth or two, that their Eldermen should be ioyned, with the ministers of the worde: and haue an equall authoritie with them, [Page 197] of binding and loosing: would they content themselues therewithall▪ It is certaine that the Barrowists woulde not: and not they onely, but euen some others of a little better credite, then any of our English botchers: who will needs haue the people to haue in effect, as great an interest, in the execution of the Church censures, as all the rest, both mi­nisters and Eldermen. Thus Vrsinus writeth hereof. Fiat excommunicatio, &c: Let excommunication be done, by the con­sent and authoritie of the whole Eldership, Expla. para. 3. pag. 350. & ecclesiae, and of the Church: not of the Church alone, nor of the Ministers or presbytery alone. For this power is not giuen by Christ to a few, or to Ministers onely (although the administration and execu­tion of it, is committed oftentimes to fewe, or to one Minister) sed toti ecclesiae, but to the whole Church. If he will not heare them and others tell the Church. Potentes dominantur, vos autem non sic. Princes beare rule like Lordes: but you may not do so. The consent therfore of the Church is to be required. 1. Be­cause it is Christes commaundement. 2. For the authoritie of the action. 3. That no man bee iniuried. 4. Least the Ministery should be changed into an Oligarchy, or Popish tyranny. Thus farre Vrsinus.

In whose iudgment you see, the Eldership is to be char­ged alreadie, though it be but newly set vp, with the same faults that are imputed to our church-gouernment, by the brotherhoode amongest vs: that is, with the alteration of Christes institution, with Lordlinesse, and with a Popishe tyranny, &c. So as, by this deuise, the people are to bee vn­derstoode in the person of the Apostles, as well as their El­ders: and the one hath no more authoritie to binde and loose, then the other. But nothing will content them long. Giue them the head, & euery yeare will bring forth a new platforme. It will not be inough for maister Beza to say: [Page] Neque enim eis assentior, Conf. cap. 5. sect 43. qui non nisi totius ecclesiae, &c. I doe not agree with them, who will not haue any man excommuni­cated, but by the consent of the whole Church, and of euery man particularly. For Christ hath giuen this authoritie, sani iudicij hominibus, to men of sound iudgement: that is to the colledge of Elders, according to the manner of the Iewes. Vrsinus, and those that are of his opinion, will aunswere: that the rest of the Church, are not of their wits: that it is but his pride, and his Elders presumption, to take so much vppon them: that they would be Lords ouer their brethren: and (for the place of Mathew:) that they know Christes meaning, as­well as he, and all that take his part.

T.C. lib. 1. pag. 183.Of the third ioynt office, that Cartwright saith doth [...]be­long vnto his pretended Elders, to bee executed ioyntly with the ministers, (as it was touched in the beginning of the 16. chapter.) I shall haue a more fit place to speake, in the 22.23.24. and 25. chapters following.

IN the apostles times, when after Christes ascen­tion, they began to preach in Ierusalem: such was the charitie of those, that professed the Gospell: that many of them, solde all, or the most part, of that which they had, and brought the price of it to the Apostles feete. The especiall reason that mo­ued them, (as I take it) so to do: was this. The greatest part, that (at the first) did followe the Apostles,1. Cor. 1. were of the poorer sorte. Who vppon theyr newe embracing of that so comfortable a doctrine, did giue ouer them­selues, [Page 199] to the carefull meditation, and throughly lear­ning of it: leauing their trades, (though not altogether, yet surely as I suppose for the most part,) vntill (at the least) that they grew to bee more fully instructed therein. To the which purpose, they kept asmuch together, with the Apostles, as possibly they could, and had their holy as­semblies, their exhortations, praiers, and the administratiō of Baptisme, secretly in priuat houses, for fear of the Magi­strats. Now (as I said) the most of these being poore men, and the Apostles themselues hauing nothing to liue vpon: When any of the richer sorte did ioyne themselues, to that meeting or congregation: they sold such thinges as they had, or thought meete, and brought the price of it vnto the Apostles: not onely for theyr owne mainte­naunce, but committed the distribution of it, vnto them, for the reliefe also of the rest that wanted, and were not a­ble to prouide for themselues, those thinges that were ne­cessary.

This charge, as well for the saide religious exercises in their priuate assembly, as for this distribution equally to be made, as the occasions required: the Apostles took vppon them more particularly for a short time, then they did af­terward: vz. vntill the number of Christians in Ierusalem increased from 120. vnto fiue thousand at the least, and did grow daily more and more: so as they were (as I thinke) constrained to haue diuerse Congregations. And then be­cause they found it to be some hinderaunce, vnto the exe­cution of their generall Commission, for (the further dis­persing of the Gospell:) they caused seuen men to be cho­sen,Acts 6. such as were knowen to be of honest report, and full of the holy Ghost, and wisedome: Vnto whom that businesse was more specially committed. Who thenceforth might not [Page 200] onely according to their honesty and discretion, take into their hands, such money, as shoulde be brought, from time to time, to the godly disposed, for the purpose mentioned: but also in the Apostles absence, agreeably with the fulnes of the holy Ghost, (whereby they held, the mysterye of faith in a pure conscience) were to teach,1. Timo. 3. to comforte, to moue, to confirme in the faith the brethren, in theyr parti­cular congregations or meetings: and likewise to offer their common praiers in al their names vnto the Lord, and to baptise the children of the faithfull.

For the Apostles in appointing of these newe officers, had as well regard to the Soules of the people, as to their bodies. And because at that time, (which was the infancy and first spring of the Church) there were not such meete men, as might be made Priests, or (as they tearme them now a daies) preaching Elders: it pleased the Apostles, to haue them trained vp in that exercise, and to make the of­fice of Deacons, a degree and a step to the fulnes of Priest­hood.1. Tim▪ 3. Which is expressed by Saint Paul, when he saith of Deacons: qui bene ministrant, gradum bonum sibi acquirent: they that minister well, shal purchase to themselues a good degree. And this order or office of Deacons, being thus (as you haue heard) first instituted at Hierusalent: was afterward vppon the same occasions, and for the same ends ordained in other Churches: where, alwaies they executed, all the parts mentioned of their offices: so long as the Church [...]s continued, wherein they were placed. Or if it happened, (as it did after in Ierusalē) that their Churches were disper­sed, so as contributions & collections ceased: yet they con­tinued, their preaching, their exhorting, and confirming, of the we [...]ke brethren: their baptising of children, & the rest of the duties mentioned, as they might be suffered and ac­cepted [Page 201] of, wheresoeuer they came. Examples of such Dea­cons and offices, as here I haue spoken of, we haue in the scriptures deliuered to vs by S. Luke, Act. 8 6.7. wher he setteth down the actions of Steuen and Phillip, both of thē Deacons, how they preached: how Phillip baptized, and what is sayd of a­ny one of them; must be vnderstood of the rest. Vnto these examples, and for the further proofe of these premises: I might adde the generall consent of all the ancient Fathers, and the ordinary practise of all Churches, either in theyr times, or since: especially, for the continuall practise, of the Priestly part of the Deacons office.

But as in times of dispersion, they could not execute the other part, consisting in collections & distributions: so af­terwards, God blessed his Church in such sort, that indeed it needed not. For when great men, Lords, Princes, Kings and Emperours, had embraced the doctrine of Christ, so as men had the Gospell brought (as it were) home to their doores, and might frequent (with commendation) the publicke assemblies, and practise of religion, and withall, follow their owne trades, and particular callings more di­ligently: when also the saide great men, Lordes, Princes, and Emperours, (besides many other well disposed Chri­stians) had prouided for the ministers, and for the poor suf­ficient maintenāce, for the one, partly by the tithes, which are due vnto them, and partly by other gifts, according to their places: and for the other, (that is, the poor) by setting them on worke, (such as were able) & by prouiding of hos­pitals, and such like meanes (for those that were impotent) that part of the Deacons office, became, to be in time su­perfluous. And since, they haue applied themselues to the more materiall part of their office, whereby they might obtaine the other good degree of Priesthood.

With these points, I thought good to acquaint you: be­fore [Page 202] I came to the Disciplinary conceits, about Deacons. For euen now, as though there were no prouision made, either for the ministery, or for the poore: they are most in­stant, for (I know not) what kind of Deacons. But as therin they haue cut off themselues from the truth: so are they at great disagreement one with another. Our Englishe refor­mers are all of them peremptory, that we must haue suche Deacons, as (they imagin) were in the Apostles times. But the Geneuiā ministers, do think their platform of discipline to be the paragō of the world, although they haue no such Deacons in it. There is in Geneua an Hospitall, whereof there are foure Proctors and ouerseers, and these foure are with them in steed of Deacons. For otherwise they haue not so much as the name of Deacons there. By which rule (if we shall square the pretended discipline) we haue such officers already, as may serue our turnes for Deacons, vz. Proctors of Spitle-houses, maisters and ouerseers of hospi­tals, as sufficient, honest, and fit mē, to execute their places: as ther is any (I assure my self) in Geneua. But peraduenture the matter which they shoot at, is this. They would haue an Hospitall in euery parish. And yet there is no such thing at Geneua. In al their whole Territory, they haue but one hospitall.

Wel, let Geneua therin do what it list: our men will needs haue another kind of Deacons: & what kind is that? Surely no such kind as was in the Apostles times.Admonit. 1. T. C. lib. 1. T. C. lib. 2. Beza cont. Sarauia. ca. 7. But they know not indeed what they woulde haue. The Deacons which our men doe require, must not inter-meddle (for a 1000. li.) with any part of the office that belongeth to a minister. Their deaconship in no case may be reckned to be a step to the ministery. How beit som other mē, as wise & as learned as they are, do hold a contrary opiniō. First, all the ancient fathers are generally against them, in both the points men­tioned, [Page 203] & so is the practise of the church of God, euer since the Apostles times. All the learned mē in Germanie (for ought I find) that maintaine the Augustane confessi­ō, are against thē. Yea what if some of their chiefe Cap­taines be against them?Discipl. of Frāce. Of Deacons. The Deacons in Fraunce, were once within these fewe yeares, allowed to catechise publick­ly in theyr reformed Congregations. And as yet, one parte of their office is to go through families, and to catechise them at home priuately. To bee a Catechist, with our men, is the especiall dutie of their Doctor: whom they make a Minister of the worde. So as then, there is no more difference in that respect, betwixt their Doctorall mini­ster, and the French Deacons: sauing that the one doth catechise publicklie, and the other priuatelie.

If all this bee nothing: then let vs heare Beza; the Consistoriall oracle: who turneth himselfe into euerie mans colours. Truth is mightie: and driueth men to their shiftes, when hauing rashly ouershot themselues, they will still (to maintaine their credits) impugne it.Beza con. Sat. cap. 7. Heare him, (I praie you) how hee plaieth his prize. It is (saith hee) absurde, to thinke that Deacons had the office of preaching committed vnto them. But in his confessions thus:Conf. cap. 5. Apho. 25. The office of pastors and Doctors, is to preach and saye prayers: vnder which duties I doe comprehend, the administra­tion of the sacraments, and the blessing of mariages (according to the perpetuall vse of the Church) although oftentimes Deacons did supplye these thinges, insteed of the Pastors. A­gaine.Beza con. Sar. cap. 7. The fathers and late writers, who supposed that the office of preaching did belong to Deacons, decepti sunt, were de­ceiued. But in his annotations vppon the 1. of Tim. 3.9. (That the Deacons must holde the misterie of faith) thus: Diaconorū enim erant nonnullae etiā in docendo partes, quoties [Page 204] necesse fuisset, vt ex Stephano et Philippo apparet: the Deacons had also some thing to do in teaching, when it was needfull: as by the example of Steuen and Philip it is manifest.

Againe: in his booke against D. Sarauia; finding him­selfe, (as I suppose) to be preiudiced by his said annotati­on, or hauing beene reproued for it by Cartwright &c. or fearing some inconuenience, that might ensue thereof; hee would gladlye get him some startinge hole. Cart­wright, to auiode the example of Steuen the Deacon, saith in effect; that he was no preacher, but an Apologizer. But Beza, hath not learned that euasion, as yet. He hath ano­ther:Cont. Sar. c. 7, which is indeed, as good as none at all. Stephen the Deacon (saith hee) although hee was most worthy to be aprea­cher: yet in that he was only a Deacon in the Church of Ieru­salem, he is not sayde to haue taught in the Church: but in the Synagogues of the Iewes. As it is nowe constantly helde; our Church▪assemblies, are the same in effect, that the Iewes Synagogues were. So as then, bee-like Deacons may not preach in Cathedrall churches, (which I resem­ble to the temple of Hierusalem) but they maie preach in Countrie parishes. One of the places which Beza alled­geth to shewe the manner of Stephens teaching in the Synagogue, is the Example of Christ; where hee tooke a place of Esayas, Luke 4. and expounded the same in the Syna­gogue at Nazareth. If a man may say that Christ, did then preach: the same may also bee affirmed of Stephen, when (as Beza saith) hee taught in the Synagogues of the Iewes. Whilest you heare Beza driuen thus to his shifts: do you not imagine, that if his case in this point were good, hee could defend it better?

But now, as concerning Cartwrightes confident asserti­on, that the Deaconship is not to be made a step to the [Page 205] ministerie. Besides the saide ancient fathers, & continuall practise of the church for 1500. yeares: the chiefe learned men of Heluetia, Bullinger: Gualter. Hemingiu [...]. & Denmark are flatly against him, where they entreate of this place of the Apostle: Hee that mini­streth well, shall purchase to himselfe, a good degree. Alexander Alexius a Scottishman; though in some sort he be a Con­sistorian, yet he is also against him. For writing vpon the same place: They shall get to themselues a good degree: that is, (saith he) digni iudicabuntur officio Episcopi: they shall bee iudged worthy the office of a Bishop. But Bezaes pretty apish toy, I could not chose but laugh at; in this place. He seeth the streame of all antiquitie to runne for this step to the ministerie: insomuch (as I am perswaded) that neither he nor all the packe of his adherēts, are able to shew, that ther was euer any one minister since the Apostles times, (til now of late) but first he was a deacon: & therefore to come as neere the truth as he can, & misse it, he saith, that in Geneua, when they choose any to the ministerie, they euer prefer their Deacons being meet mē, before any o­ther, of whom they haue not so good experience. So as there, to be one of the 4. proctors of their spittlehouse, is one good meanes to get into their ministery. But I will leaue these spittlehouse-deacons, to climbe as they can into their Consist. Bishopricks; & come to another mā ­ner of deacons, that wold be hardly induced to be thrust either into a spittlehouse, or accept of the ministerie.

It appeareth in the 10 Chapter, how prouidently it is ordered at Geneua, that none but councellers of the state, cā be any Aldermen of their grande presbyterye: & like­wise how Beza a duiseth all other Churches, that will re­ceaue their holy platforme, to endeuour asmuch as they can: that Noblemen & princes may take that office vpō [Page 206] thē. Which order & aduise is thought to be of such im­portance (as it seemeth) for the glorie of their Eldership, that our English discourser, hath thought it meete to ex­tende the same, in some sorte to the choise of their Dea­cons. Euery ignorant contemptible person (saith hee) is not to bee allowed to this office (of Deacons):Dis. pag 110. but as godly, wise, and worshipfull, as may conueniently bee found in the Congregation, maye not thinke themselues too good to minister vnto Christ in his members, and in the name of the Church. Awaie then with these base Artizans, that haue dreamed peraduen­ture, that if the Discipline were vp, they should bee (I know not what): awaie with them I saie; these Tailors, Shoemakers, Mercers, Drapers, and such like ignorant and contemptible persons: and giue place to your bet­ters, the wise and worshipfull Gentlemen of the parish. Indeed where great Lordes and Princes are Elders: for­asmuch as Deacons maie chaunce sometimes to be ioy­ned in Commission with them: It is verie meete they should bee men of worship. But yet mee thinketh all the partes of this Senate; are not fullie sutable. For where the Deacons are men of worship: where the Elders are Noblemen and Princes: what must the Pastors and do­ctors bee? Surelie if proportion bee kept: they must bee some bodie: the Doctor a king, and the Pastor an Emperor.

What needed the learned Discourser then to suspect▪ that peraduenture some men would bee loth to take the office of Deacons vppon them: when they should bee matched in this sorte, with such worthie and honorable Collegues. A great preferment no doubt for any aspi­ring minde; and few gentlemen (ye maie be sure) will re­fuse it. But yet his suspition, doth rise of some thing. [Page 207] For what if these gentlemen Deacons, whē their Pastors, Doctors, and their Noblemen-elders, were consultinge together; should bee thrust out of the doores, notwith­standing their worships? I tell you truelie that pointe is not yet resolued. Bertrand de Loques a French Discipli­narian, affirmeth:Bert. of the Church. c. 14. that although the Consistorie is indeed com­posed of the Pastors and Elders: Yet the Deacons are receaued into it so farre foorth, and in as much as they shall iudge it to be expedient and profitable: to aduise, giue counsell, & consider of the censures, and of that which is requisite & necessary for the guiding and gouernment of the Church. Well: this is some thing for the Deacons: but the auncient Councell of Hage, which was held (as it hath beene saide) in the yeare 1586.Concil. Hage Canon 35. hath gone much further. For there it is decreed: That in those places, where there are but few Elders, Consistorio Diaconi adiungentur, the Deacons shall be adioyned vnto the Consistorie. Before they were to expect, vntill they might be receaued into the Consistorie: but now they are of it. Before they were but only to giue aduise; but now being of it, they must haue their voices in it.

But what shoulde I insist vppon such paltrie proofes? You shall heare a Canon of the Ecclesiasticall discipline in Fraunce, resolued vppon (I know not) by howe manie Synodes, at Paris, Poictiers, Orleance, Lyons, &c. There it is set downe for a Law in this sorte: The Elders and Dea­cons doe make the ecclesiasticall Senate or Consistorye:Dis. of France. of the Consist.wherein the ministers of the worde sit as chiefe. And with this French decree, the authors of the seconde admonition here in England do fullie accord. Where they assure the high Court of Parliament 1572▪ Admonitio 2. that the whole regiment of the Church, is committed ioyntly to the ministers, Elders, and Dea­cons. Thus farre then the matter runneth well: for our [Page 208] worshipfull Deacons. Howbeit: now heare, what is said to the contrarie.

You haue heard how the said Councels, and admo­nitioners haue ioyned the ministers, Elders, and Dea­cons together: but now in commeth another sorte, and they will needes disiointe them. It would hardlie bee indured by the Ministers of Geneua, to haue one of the proctors of their hospitall, to sitte (by vertue of that office) cheeke by iowle with Beza. And therefore the generall resolution of all that are there; is quight a­gainst the Deacons, in that behalfe. Beza in his treatise against Erastus, Beza de presb. Beza Epist. 85. and else where, doth allow of none to be of the Presbyterie; but Ministers and Elders. Cartwright and all the rest of our reforming sconces (except the said Admonitioners) do wholie therein agree likewise, with Beza: So as I shall not trouble you with anie further allegation to this purpose, sauing one: and that you shall haue: because it containeth in it, not the iudgement on­lie of any particular man; but is the full resolution of Cartwright, and all his crue here in England; contained in a certaine booke of Discipline, whereunto the chiefest of thē haue subscribed: The presbyterye (saith that booke) is an assembly or senate of elders. By the name of elders are ment, ministers of the word, and those that are properly called Elders. They meane such as in their place I haue spoken of. Here then you haue that Deacons are of the presbyterie: and that they are not of the presbyterie. Chuse, which side you will belieue: I thinke they are bewitched. If I might aduise you: beleiue them both alike.

But some will peraduenture saie, that it maketh no great matter, whether side hath the truth: that the point betwixte them is of no importance: and that I am too [Page 209] blame, to make so much of nothing. Whereunto I answere, that if there bee anie who shall so conceaue: he is not well acquainted with the depth of this matter. For indeed it worketh a meruailous alteration in the Dea­cons office. Admitte them to haue their places and voices in the Consistories: and then their authoritie is growen to bee verie great. Then they haue equall right with their pastors and Doctors, to ordaine mini­sters by imposition of their handes. Then, the forgi­uing and retaining of sinnes: doth appertaine vnto thē. Then they are become the Apostles successors; and doe carry the keyes of the kingdome of heauen aswell as any of the rest.Cart. &c. newe discipline. For in Consistorio standum maioris partis senten­tiae: In the Consistorye men must stande to the sentence of the greater part. One mans voice there, is as good as an o­thers. And so in all other matters, that do belonge to the Consistorie, and which are to be executed there, iointly by them all together; the Deacons beare swaie & haue a stroake with the best of them. Wheras on the otherside, if they be excluded out of the Consistorie: (as Beza & our men would haue thē:) then they haue nothing at all to doe with any of these matters: but are restrained, & drawē into a more narrow cōpasse: & must content thē ­selues, to be either proctors of hospitals, or else collectors & distributers of the peoples deuotiō to the poore. And therein also they are subiect to great controlment. For as the lawes & certaine grounds of Geneua, affirme: (& ther­fore also cōmonly so held elsewhere) Diaconorū admini­stratio, Thes. Geneu. pastorum inspectioni est obnoxia: the deacons admini­stration is vnder the ouersight of the pastors.

It is true,Beza cont. Sar. Cap. 7. th [...]t Beza is pleased, to allow the deacons, a little more scope, thē hitherto I haue mentioned. And that is: [Page 210] that in the celebratiō of the Lordes supper, they may by their office carrie the cup to the communicants. M. Cart­wright goeth a little further, and telleth vs also, that they maie likewise distribute the bread. In all reformed Churches almost (saith he) the Deacons do assist the minister, in helping of him to distribute the cup,T.C. lib 1: pag 61.& in some places also the bread. If none would be angrie with me: I would gladlie aske this question: vz. why the Deacons might not aswell helpe the minister to baptise, and to distribute the worde, as well as the Lordes supper? But, as I saide before of the Noblemen Elders, so do I also of our worshipfull Dea­cons. What a sight were it to see a Iustice of peace, peraduenture in his veluet cloake, his chaine of golde, and such correspondent attire, as is agreeable to that cal­ling; deliuering to the people (that I maie speake of so holie a sacrament, sacramentallie) the most blessed bodie and blood of our Sauiour Christ? And yet I allow the sight as reasonable, as to see the proctor of a Spittlehouse executing of that charge. Peraduenture it will here be said againe; that if there be anie deformitie in the behol­ding of either of these sights, it is not in them; but in the beholders. For they are ecclesiastical persons, as soone as they are made Deacons. And then why doth it not belong vnto them: to deale in ecclesiasticall causes? It is wel obiected. That point indeed would not be omitted.

It is generallie agreed vpon amongst them (I confes) that their new found halfe-partie Deacons, are ecclesia­sticall persons. For our Counter-poisoner saith: That whosoeuer are called (as you must vnderstande their Dea­cons are) to beare office in the Church, Count. pa. 130 with due examination and triall, and with the consent of those, to whom it appertayn­eth; and are with fasting and prayers, or with prayers onely, and [Page 211] with imposition of handes, separated or put a part to that office: they are al Ecclesiasticall persons, and not lay men, as they terme them. Surely, if our Noble men, were once become El­ders, and our chiefest Gentlemen Deacons: and so both the sorts of them, Ecclesiasticall persons: what a clergy should we haue in England? Now there is no one calling, in the whole common wealth, that is growen, to be more contemptible with many, then the calling of Clergy men. But that would soone be recouered, when such men of e­stimation, should bee in the account of Ecclesiasticall per­sons. There was an old saying. Soluat Ecclesiae, let euery man pay to the Church. Which now is altered, and made aun­swerable to the humor that now raigneth. Soluat Ecclesia, let the Church-men pay for it. And indeede, if we had suche Elders and Deacons, to be of the number of vs, that are Church-men and Ecclesiasticall persons: we might surely pay wel for it. At the least if their tenths & subsidies should be in all respects rateable to ours. And there were no rea­son, that the Pastors and Doctors, men so farre in degree a­boue the Elders and Deacons, should finde lesse fauour, then their inferiours: or be more deepely charged, except their liuings were in true value, according to their degrees.

But this would be the mischiefe of it: that the Discipli­nary platformres, haue so far ouershot themselues already, as certainely they haue marred all these their former spe­culations. For they haue made the Deacons office, but annual. And I am perswaded, that if our noble men & wor­shipfull Gentlemen, were but for one yeare to all respects become Ecclesiasticall persons, they would hardly be dra­wen to continue in that calling the next yeare after. It was neuer heard of in the Church of Christ, for the space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeares, that the deacons office [Page 212] should be annuall. Imposition of handes by the Presby­tery, to an office for a yeare▪ In what Apostle, in what E­uangelist, in what History may we finde it▪ A man shalbe an Ecclesiasticall person to day, and to morrowe (without any fault committed by him) he shall become a lay man a­gaine. Maister Beza seeing the absurdity hereof, doth in­deuour to salue it, as well as he can. And wot yee howe▪ Surely he saith in effect, that few men will bee willing to [...]arry long in that office: and that therefore they are glad to haue them as they may, and to frame their lawes accor­dingly. But you shall heare his owne wordes to Doctor Sarauia, who doth mislyke that the Deacons office is an­nuall. Restitue igitur nobis faelicia illa Apostolicarum Ec­clesiarum tempora, &c. Restore then vnto vs (saith Beza) those happy times of the Apostolicall Churches, Beza cont. Sarauia. ca. 7. and stirre vp suche men, in euery place if thou canst, who will not refuse this office with that condition.

See I pray you how weak in faith Maister Beza is. Tush (saith Cartwright) and some others, euen in the very like case: graunt vnto vs once, that we haue our Presbyteries established, and as concerning fit men to take vppon them the offices which are there required, God will stirre them vp thicke and threefolde: you shall be sure there will bee no want that way. You haue heard before, the place I meane,T. C. lib. 1. pag. 180. but such a good tale cannot be tolde too oft. When men are called (saith he) to a lawfull and profitable calling, and especially to a publick calling: God powreth his gifts on that per­son, (which is called) so plentifully: that he is as it were sodden­ly made a new man. Now if this be true: of all the giftes which are most necessary in any man of calling, I take it, that this one may goe in the number: that a man hauing put his hand to the plow, should not looke backe, but con­tinue [Page 213] in the calling which he hath taken vppon him. So as then Bezacs aunswere is not worth a straw, to tell vs that the Deacons office, is not of such continuance now, as it was in the Apostles times: because men wil not now take that charge vppon them. For Cartwright either telleth him in effect: that Deacons must be chosen for their liues, as in the Apostles times, (except there bee some extraordi­nary occasion to the contrary): and that then God will make them willing to continue in their office, according to their duties: or else if he shall restraine his sayd spea­ches, (which are generall) to his Elders, and so exclude their Deacons, from that sodain influence of Gods graces he talketh of: then certainely, I shall doubt, and so I think others will doe in like sort, that his Diuinity in that point, is much like his platforme of Discipline: that is, forged and counterfaite.

But one thing yet more I am to aduertise you off: con­cerning the worshipfull Deacons. And it seemeth strange. Our men as you know, and as it is elsewhere mentioned, haue beene most earnest vppon this point: that the body of Christ must in no wise be deformed, neither by increa­sing, nor diminishing, nor confounding of those officers and offices, which hee himselfe hath appointed in his Church, and to that end distinguished. Heare I pray you the Demonstrator: where he goeth about to proue, that a Deacon may not intermeddle, either with the worde or Sacraments.Demon. ca. 13 That which the Apostle (saith hee) maketh an ordinary and distinct office from other in the Church, must bee attended vppon by them, that are in the same office, and not to be mingled with any other. But the Deacons office is such a one con­sisting in distribution with simplicity, as Caluin and Beza &c. doe affirme. And therefore consequently the Deacons office must [Page 214] bee attended vppon, and must not be mingled with any other of­fice. I will not meddle with the insufficiency of this argu­ment: but take euery part of it, as the demonstrator meant it: and you shall see what will thereuppon fall out. If his minor be true: vz. that the Deacons office, consisting in distribution, is of that nature, that it must be attended vp­pon, and may not be mingled with any other office: What would yee say to him, who shoulde affirme, that notwith­standing the Elders and Deacons are distinct members of Christs body, and haue distinct offices appointed vnto them by Christ: yet those offices may bee mingled toge­ther, and one man may execute them both▪ Surely mai­ster Beza is the man. As neere as wee can (saith hee) we (in Geneua) do choose our Deacons (being indued with good gifts) to bee likewise Elders: because (the censure and iudgement of manners, being no daily function) has duas simul functiones o­bire facilè possunt: the Deacons may easily discharge both these functions together. Indeede it was meete that the Proctors of their Hospitall (carrying the purse) should be intertai­ned with them, by one deuise or other. But in the meane while,T. C. lib. 1. pa. 190. our demonstrator runneth against them with all the force of his Engines, quoting Cartwright and Trauerse for his chiefe authors, with their [...]one instrument to one vse: &c [...] one mā may not haue two functions or offices: and so amongest them they make (by consequence) the holy platforme of Geneua, to be a may­med, a dismembred, a confused, and a mangled platform of Church-discipline. And thus you see (concerning this matter of their new deuised Deacons) how they agree to­gether, like Harpe and Harrow.

TOuching this matter of Widdowes; I will not trouble you much with it. Certaine poore godly and impotent widdowes, that had neither goodes nor friendes, nor were able in anie wise to help themselues, were main­tained in the Apostles times, with such mony, as was brought in, by the richer sorte, and layd at the Apostles feete. The places of scripture, wherin these widdowes are mentioned, the Papistes bring for their Nunnes, and our disciplinarian men, for a fift sorte of their ecclesiasticall gouernours: both of them (as I take it) with no great sinceritie. The office ascribed to Nunnes, was single life, fasting, and prayer. The office ascribed to the ruling Widdowes, is to wash the feete of the saintes, and to attend vpon the poore, that are sicke. This matter of Nunnes, is notably handled, by Chemnitius: and so is the other of the pretended ruling Widdowes, Chemnit. ex. concil. Tri­dent: par. 3. by Doctor Sutcliffe. How grossely the Papistes haue erred in theyr de­uise:Doct. Sut­cliffe of Ec­clesi. Discip. cap. 6. I haue not nowe to deale with it. The disagreement which I finde in the other sort, touching their widdowes: is the point, which is propounded.

First I see, there is some doubt, whether the persons, who, (as they say) did execute the office mentioned, in the Apostles times: were men onely, or women onely: or some of them men, and some of them women. Cartwright, he is for the women onely: where diuiding Deacons into [Page 216] two kinds, he saith thus of the second: Some had charge ouer the poore straungers, T. C. lib. 1. pag. 190. and the sicke poore onely: and those S. Paul calleth in one place Diaconisses, and in another place widdowes. By his opinion then, they were women. But Trauerse in his discourse of discipline, where hee speaketh of deacons, and casteth them out into their orders: can find no other Church officers to haue executed that charge, in the Apo­stles times, ouer the sicke poore, but onely men deacons. A third sorte there is,Discip. eccles. 118.119. which depend vppon maister Beza: & they will be sure not to misse their aime: & therfore they hold, that both men and womē were then capable of that office. I agree to them ( saith Beza) who thinke, that saint Paul in these words: (he that sheweth mercie with chearefulnesse:) vnderstandeth those which were appointed to cure the sicke: vt serè erant viduae: such as for the moste parte the widdowes were. Not alwaies widdowes, but for the most part▪ So then be­like it is a matter, after a sorte indifferent. Indeede in Gene­neua, they haue no such widdowes at all: but a phisition and a Surgion, Order of Ge­neua of Dea­cons. maintained by the wages of the towne, to looke to the sicke in their hospitall. Nowe all these three sortes of men: haue their partakers. The moste hold for the widdowes, with Cartwright. Iunius giueth this reason why such wo­men were rather appointed to that office then men:Iunius, eccle. lib. 2. cap. 4. be­cause, aptiores sunt quam viri: they are more fit then men, to be about sicke persons, and to helpe them. The authour of the fruitfull sermon, he inclineth to Beza, where he saith; that a shewer of mercie is he, or rather she, &c. And Trauerse, in like sorte is not without his adherent. Which disagreement a­mongest them, is not lightly to be regarded. For if wid­dowes were appointed by the Apostles to that office, then men might not execute it: if men were appointed, then it was vnlawfull for women to take it vpon them: no more [Page 217] then it was lawfull for them to be eyther pastors, doctors, Elders, or men deacons.

But bee this point, as it may bee: I will come to a se­cond iarre. It hath gone a great while for good paiment from Beza and Cartwright, &c. that the whole Church be­ing deuided,Beza annot: Rom. 12. & cont. Erast. T.C. lib. 1. pa. 190. into ecclesiasticall gouernors and Idiots: the men or women that did attend the poore sicke, or rather the women (that I may vse their phrase,) were no more to be reckoned amongst the lay Idiots in their parish, but must be thenceforth accompted in the number of Church go­uernors.Learn. dis­course. Fruitfull Ser­mon. A widdow in a Spittle house, an ecclesiastical per­son: nay an ecclesiasticall gouernour & commander. It see­meth that some haue beene driuen from Beza, Cartwright, and the rest of their associates: with the very cogitation of this so grosse an absurdity. And therfore to salue vp the matter, (and yet to come as neer as they could vnto them) they haue displaced these widdowes from their seats of gouern­ment, and haue made them plaine Idiotes againe, as they were before. Or rather, which is much worse: whereas before they were gouernours of the Churche;Fenner de­fence Fruitfull ser­mon. they haue now thrust them into the lowest place, that may be, & say, they are to be esteemed but as Church seruaunts, such as were appointed by the gouernours of the Church, and consent of the people, to that seruitude. Here is then a great fall, as I think. From a wise woman to an Idiot, or from a publicke person to a priuate condition: and from a Church gouernour, to a poore Spittle-house seruaunt. Who would wishe to his enemie a greater change▪ Peraduenture there will be some distinction deuised, that shall stop vp this gappe: but if it be not a good one, it may so chaunce; that all their soueraigne rulers will be masshed with it.

Thirdly, if these the foresaid helpers of the poore sicke, [Page 218] should be men, as it is in Geneua, diuerse great questions will rise. As for example: where the holy Ghost hath de­scribed their qualities? How well seene, they ought to bee in phisicke and surgerie▪ who shoulde trie their skill before they were chosen? Being chosen, who shoulde admitte them? Whether the Eldershippe must bee able to trie them? And whether it bee an Apostolicall rule, that Phisitions and Sur­geons shoulde bee ordained for practicioners, by the impo­sition of the handes of the presbyterie? And againe, on the other side also, if the said mercy shewers doe prooue to be widdowes, (although as they say, there is some kind of de­scription of them in the Apostles first Epistle to Timothy, 1. Tim. 5. wherein they agree:) yet some thing will still fall forth, to be out of ioynt. Euery such widdow as they require, must be threescore yeares olde at the least, and such a one (sayth maister Caluin) as was, vnius viri vxor, the wife of one hus­band:Cal. in 1. Tim. 5.that is, was neuer married but once. And hee yealdeth this reason of that the Apostles order: because when a woman commeth to those yeares, and hath beene content all her lifetime before, to haue had but one husband: it is very likely, that after­ward she will liue both continently and modestly. So then by maister Caluins iudgement, there might no widdowe haue attained to the said Church office, of gouerning the sicke poore: if she had beene twise married. But M. Cartwright relying vpon maister Bezaes annotations, will (as it seemeth) none of that: but saith, that it is sufficient, if such a widdowe hath had but one husband at once, and hath not been maried vnto another after an insufficient diuorce. T.C. lib. 2. p. 116. By whose opinion, euery such widow, might haue had in the course of her life foure or fiue husbands: without preiudicing her selfe thereby, from being as likely to liue continently, after she came to the age of threescore: as any other which should haue had [Page 219] but one husband at all. If the reason of the Apostles words depend any way vppon that point: peraduenture Maister Caluins exposition, will proue to be the better.

But there are here two pointes, which I meruayle at. It seemeth that by the opinions of them all three, a widdow being once chosen to be a church-gouernour, might not afterwardes marry (at the least), and keepe her office. And why should thē either phisition or surgion that is married, haue that charge committed vnto him▪ Cannot an olde woman, that hath peraduenture as olde an husband, be as diligent and carefull about the sicke poore; as a phisition and Surgion of middle yeares, that may haue both of them peraduenture, young wiues▪ The second point I spake of, is this. Maister Beza in his exposition of the place men­tioned: vnius viri vxor, the wife of one husband, notwith­standing he knew Maister Caluins fore sayd interpretation of the same wordes to be opposite to his, and that he ta­keth vppon him to confute his reason before specified, vz. of the probability, that such women, as had been married but once in threescore yeares, were more likely to liue chastly afterward, then if they had beene married fower or fiue times: yet for the honour and reuerence (as I take it) of M. Caluins name, hee doth not once make mention of him. You will say, this is a slender meruaile. M. Caluin was his frend, and therefore he named him not. Indeede, that is the manner of the world. Men are oft fauoured: as they are frended. But it is pitty, that the auncient Fathers haue no more friendship, with Beza. For, that is the point I meruaile at. Heare him how he commeth ouer them, or rather how he descrediteth himselfe. Hac in re sanè &c. In this thinge surely, I do not easely agree to the auncient fathers, e­specially the latine writers. And againe: If any man shall oppose [Page 220] against my exposition, the authority of certayne of the aunciente fathers: ad verbum dei prouoco, I doe appeale to the word of God, and I desire, that the reasons, which I haue broughte for it; may be refelled. How crancke hee is with the auncient fathers? but not a word of M. Caluin. And his reason (as I take it) was this: bicause M. Caluins authority seruinge him much better, for the credite of diuers Disciplinary positions, then all the auncient fathers doe: hee is more desirous for the continuance of his reputation, then of all theirs. A fourth matter there is also, concerning these widdowes, which is of the greatest importance: and is yet no better agreed vp­on, then as you haue heard of the rest. Be it, that in the A­postles times there were such widdowes, as they affecte: yet the question is; whether it be necessary, that now there should bee such church-officers, or new colleges of wid­dowes, set vp in euery parish, to looke to the poore that be sicke or not? Some of their proctors, doe wauer much, in this point: some are resolute for them, & some are as re­solute (to my vnderstanding) against them. First (I pray you) let M. Cartwright speak his pleasure.T.C. l. 1. p. 190 Saint Paule recko­neth vp all the ordinary and perpetuall offices of the Church; of the Doctor, of the Pastor, of the Deacon, of the Elder, and lea­ueth not out so much as the Widdow. Againe. Now there is not so great vse of these widdowes with vs &c. Part of the necessity (why they were first founded) grew both by the multitude of stran­gers &c. and by the great heat of those East countries, wherevp­pon the washing and supplinge of feete, was required. Againe: For asmuch as there are poore, which are sicke in euery church: I doe not see a better order can bee deuised &c. if there can bee any widdowes gotten. And againe. I conclude, that (if such may bee gotten) we ought to kepe that order in the church. In good time. It is a very substantiall conclusion.

And is he come to this: If such can be gotten? Hath God [Page 221] appointed such officers to be in euery parishe, as cannot be gotten▪ He told vs before in the behalfe of his Elders, (as you shall heare againe the thirde time) that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling, T.C. l. 1. p. 180 and especially to a publicke calling, God doth powre his giftes on that person (which is called) so plentifully, that he is, as it were, soddainely made a new man. Whereuppon he inferreth, that doe but once make choice of such Elders, as he doth after: and God will by and by make them fitte persons to execute their offices. And may wee not then also affirme, by the Analogy of the same doctrine: that when God appoin­teth an ordinary and perpetuall office in his Church, he doth also prouide, either ordinarily or extraordinarily, that there shall be alwaies some to vndertake it▪ What pre­rogatiue haue his Elders aboue his Widdowes, that God hauing appointed them both alike, to beare a continuall office in his Church: the one sort should be so miraculous­ly prouided for, euen vppon the soddaine, and the other be suffered so farre to weare out, as that they cannot bee gotten▪ May it not be as truely saide, sette vp the Elder­ship in euery parishe, and God will prouide Widdowes: as set it so vp in the most Clownish parish in England, and God wil presently by inspiration, make the poor husband­men, Carters, Thatchers and Dawbers, newly chosen to be Elders, such meet and able men, to gouern the church: as the keies of the kingdom of Heauen, may be safely com­mitted into their hands?

Whether through these and such like other conceites, or vpon what grounds els I know not: but there is a second sorte of Disciplinary Widdowistes, that are very farre growen past Cartwrights, Ifs. Fenner. One that writeth the de­fence of the godlye Ministers, (as hee intituleth them,) [Page 222] hath in that Treatise, framed tenne argumentes of a wonderfull power, as many haue supposed. Wherein hee al'wayes comprehendeth the widdowes: & nameth them as necessary partes of the forme of that Church-gouerne­ment, which Christ and his Apostles haue appointed to be the ordinary and perpetuall platforme for the guiding and go­uerninge of the Church, vntill the ende of the world: and maketh them, (by such force as his argumentes haue,) as necessary, for the ordinary continuance of them, as eyther Pastor, Doctor, Elders, or men Deacons. The learned dis­courser likewise agreeth with this Defence-maker; where hauing spoken of Widdowes, amongst the rest of their Church-officers: and of all their offices: he saith, that bee­ing instituted by the spirite of God, Learned disc. pag. 104. for the necessary vse of the Church, which vse still continueth, they ought also to be retayned amōngst vs. I may not here also omit the author of the Fruit­full sermon, Fruitfull Serm. pa. 39. who expoūdeth so pretily, the similitude which S. Paul vseth of that mysticall body, whereof (as I take it) Christ is the head: that he excludeth the whole Church, from being any members of it, except they bee eyther Pa­stors, Doctors, Elders, Deacons, or Widdowes. A member (saith he) is such a parte of the bodye,Ibid.as hath receiued from the head, some particular and necessary guifte, to helpe and benefite the whole body, and euery member therof. And so he reckoneth vs his members, as I haue sayd. His meaning therein is this, (as I thinke,) that the rest of the body, is but as it were a rude lumpe, which is to bee framed and fashioned, by the sayd members: by euery one, according to the office of it. And after for the necessity, vz. that euery one of his sayde members, no moe, no fewer, should allwayes continue in the bo­dy: he vseth these woordes, If nature lacke any one member, be it neuer so base, Ibid pag. 40. if it bee but one toe, shee is sorry, shee is [Page 223] grieued, she lamenteth, shee iudgeth her selfe maimed, yea shee would redeeme it with the perill of loosinge the rest, such is her loue and desire, to appear in her beauty & perfection. As though he should haue said, that he and his fellowes are so far be­witched with the desire of their Eldershippes; that rather then they will misse their Widdowes, euen the meanest members of it, they care not to hazard the being of the whole Church.

Vnto this fruictfull sermoner mentioned:Defence. pag. 135. I will adde one of Fenners inuincible arguments, because it enforceth the sayd similitude of the members of the body so syllogi­stically. Whatsoeuer officers are ordinary mēbers of the Church: are sette into the same of God for ordinary &c perpetuall dueties, with ordinary and perpetuall giftes, wherein they are comman­ded to abide, and wherewith the Church is commaunded to bee content: Those are ordinary perpetuall and the best, for no man may remoue the members of Christs body, hauing ordinary giftes and actions for the perpetuall vse of the body. But these of Doc­tors, Pastors, Elders, Deacons, Church-seruants, are ordinarye members of the Church: are set into the same of God, for ordina­ry duties of teaching, exhorting, ruling, prouision for the poore, and attendance vnto them: all which no man in his wits wil de­ny to be perpetuall, and in these, expressely they which haue the giftes, are commaunded to abide, and to content themselues with them: Wherefore &c. These men you see, must either haue their Widdowes, or else all is marred. And haue them they will, if distinguishing, similitudes, diuiding, sillogismes, and logicke, will get them. And besides you may perceiue what most vehement, patheticall, and peremptory men they are, in this behalfe.

Howbeit you shall finde that other men, nay whole Churches (for all this heat) are of another opinion: and [Page 224] withall, such men and Churches, as neither the defender, discourser, nor sermoner, nor all the priuate disciplinarye conuenticles in England, will presume in any sort to com­pare themselues vnto them. Maister Beza doth not thinke the hauing of Widdowes, to be such an ordinary and per­petuall institution, as it hath beene pretended. For at Ge­neua, not such a Widdow, if you would giue a pounde for her. And yet that platforme is either perfect by this time: or else there hanges some curse ouer it. But this I am sure of: that he who durst take vppon him, to tell them in Ge­neua, that by their omission of these Widdowes, they haue cruelly wounded the body of Christ: they had like despe­rate ruffians, cut of one of his members: and that in these respectes, the forme of their Disciplinary regiment, is mai­med and deformed: might peraduenture repente him of it. Indeede either I am very much deceiued, or els this dreame of widdowes beginneth to vanish. The very principall, nay the onely place, vz. Hee that sheweth mercy with cheerefullnesse, wherevpon they haue hitherto builte, to proue them to be such Church-officers, as they haue i­magined them to be: is boldly, and with mayne strength wrested out of their handes: notwithstandinge that Mai­ster Caluin, M. Beza, and M. Cartwright, had layde as fast hold vpon it, as they could. Or peraduenture I might ra­ther say, that the two which bee aliue, seeing their tenure was nought, haue willingly giuen it ouer. The Cham­pion I meane, that hath done this great deede, is Maister Trauers. De disci. Ec­cles. fol. 119. Who writeth of this pointe, after this sorte. That which followeth of him that sheweth mercy; nullum certe munus ecclesiae indicare puto &c. I thinke it meaneth not any certaine office, but what duety, the whole Church ought to shew in relie­uing the poore. Thus farre and further Maister Trauers, in [Page 225] his Latine booke, as if you will peruse the place, you shall perceiue.

But you must remember, that I doe referre you to his Latine booke: and not to the Englishe translation of it. Why? some may say: is it not faithfully translated? Shall we thinke that such zealous men, as had to deale therein, would serue vs as the Iesuites doe? It is, wee know, a pra­ctise, with that false hypocriticall broode, to leaue out and thrust in, what they list into the writinges of the an­cient Fathers: that thereby in time, nothing might ap­peare, which shoulde any way make against them. But wee will neuer suspect nor belieue, that any man who fea­reth God: and least of all, that any of that sorte, which are so earnest against all abuses and corruptions, shoulde play vs such a prancke. Surely yee doe well to iudge the best: and I my selfe was of your opinion. But nowe I am cleane altered. How were some of Vrsinus workes v­sed at Cambridge? And it is true that some other Bookes haue beene handled very strangely else-where. But con­cerning the present point, this is the trueth. The tran­slator of Trauerses Booke, hath quite omitted the wordes which I haue alleadged: and all the rest that tendeth to that purpose, euen seuenteene lines together. So as if you see but the Englishe Booke, you shall not finde so much as one steppe, whereby you might suspect, that e­uer Maister Trauerse hadde carried so harde a hande ouer the pretended Widdowes. If the translator had recea­ued any Commission from the author to haue dealt in that sorte with his Booke: yet it shoulde haue beene signified eyther in some Preface or in some note, or by some means or other: but to leaue such a matter out, and to giue no generall warning of it, I tell you plainely it was greate [Page 226] dishonesty and lewdenesse. It were better for them to giue ouer their platformes in the plaine field: then to seeke to maintaine them with such apparaunt falshoods.

Well, let them take their course, and yet all theyr sleightes will not preuaile. But the Translator or Coun­cellor, or peruser, one or moe, or how many soeuer: they were but all of them sottes: if they thought by such their corruption, to bolster vp the credite of theyr Widdowe Church-gouernours. For it is euident (in my iudge­ment) that eyther most of their owne men, doe beginne to come to Maister Trauerses opinion before mentioned, or else that generally it is helde by them, that the first or­daining of Widdowes, was but for a time, & neuer meant to be an ordinary, and perpetuall institution to continue for euer.

In Geneua (as I saide) there are no such Widdowes. Scotlande in their approued Booke after the Geneua fashi­on, doth not once thinke of them. The Synodicall con­stitutions, for the Presbyteriall platforme of all the French Churches, doe make no mention of them. The gene­rall Councell of Hage, and so all the Low Countries, haue wholly forgotten them in their decrees and Ca­nons. In the platforme, and newe Communion Booke, which was offered once or twise to the high Courte of Parliament in Englande, (concerning these Widdowes) there is nothing but silence. Whereas also there hath beene great paines taken of later yeares, amongest the Disciplinary brotherhoode, and many meetinges, and Synodes helde, about another more particular draught of Discipline, for this Realme, till at the last they haue subscribed vnto it, to bee a necessary platforme for all places and times: yet you shall not finde, that they [Page 227] haue spoken, so much as one word, of those Widdowes. Whereuppon I conclude, that their cause is desperate: and so I leaue, both them and their patrons, with all their contrarieties, vncertainties, and wranglings about them: and will come to the consideration of another materiall point: vz. what charge this Consistoriall de­uise doth bring with it, to euerie parish.

BY the common account of our dis­ciplinarie deuises: there are diuers ecclesiasticall persons to be main­tained in euerie Parish. Nowe, there is but one, in most places, the Parson or the Vicar: and (God knoweth) in manie parishes, their intertainment is full bare. But admit of the Consisto­riall Senate in euery parish:Pag. 131. and then consider howe they shall bee charged. First the current assertion is; That in euerye Congregation there must bee a Pastor: but the learned Discourser sayth; there should bee two at the least. Then they must haue a Doctor. And for Elders, they maie bee moe or fewer: as the cir­cuite of the Parish is. Except Maister Bezaes collecti­on prooue to bee authenticall: and then their num­ber will bee greate. You haue hearde that wee must haue the forme, of the Iewes Sanedrim or Counsell in euerie Parish. And in that (sayth Beza) there were twentie foure Ecclesiasticall Iudges. By which ac­count, [Page 228] abating the Pastor and the Doctor: there ought to bee two and twentie Elders in euerie parish. You shall heare Bezaos wordes, and how heegathereth that there was such a number.

There is mention made in the Apoca. of a throne: vppon the which Christ sitteth,Apoca. 4. and of the foure and twenty Seates about it, whereupon foure & twentie El­ders sate: who were cloathed in white rayment, and had on their heades Crownes of golde.Beza: cont: E-rast. lib. script. Now sayth Beza (concerning the said number mentioned of ecclesi­asticall Iudges) 24. numero fuisse &c, That they were in num­ber 24. that is to saie, two of euery Tribe, it seemeth it may be ga­thered out of the Apocalyps: where certum est, it is certaine, that those heauenly visions were framed or accommotated to the forme of the Israeliticall Church. Where by the way, it would be obserued; what a glorious church-regemēt we are in time to looke for. Our Elderships must be framed, after the fashion of the Elderships which were amongst the Iewes. And if we doubt of the state and forme of the Iewes elderships; we must haue recourse to the Apocalips, where the glorie of Christ & his Saints in the kingdome of heauen is set forth. And agreeablie to those heauenly thrones; we must set vp thrones for our 24. Elders in eue­ry parish. For this Beza is certaine of, that the heauenlye visions in the Apocalyps, were agreable to the forme of the ecclesiasticall regiment in Israell. But as touching the number of his elders: he is not as yet, for any thing I per­ceaue, so throughly resolued. And therefore we are at li­bertie till wee heare to the contrary from him: to place moe or fewer in euery parish as we list.

At Geneua they haue but 12. Elders.Knox of elect of Elders. And they either haue; or had once in Edenburgh: as many. Likewise, eue­ry [Page 229] parish must haue certaine Deacons. They had once in Edenburgh (as I remēber) 16. Deacons. And concerning widdowes, (if they will vrge vs with the examples of the Apostles times, and withall in like manner presse vs with their own expositiōs) then there must be a College of wid­dowes in euery parish.Thes. Geneu. pag. 220. So the grounds of Geneua diuinitie tell vs;Beza Ann. Act 6.1. & so doth Beza likewise, if I vnderstand them. And all these, how many i [...] euer it shall please our reformers to impose vpon euery parish: pastor or pastors, Doctor, Elders, Deacons, & widdowes: must all of thē be found by the same parish. For the ministers of the worde there was neuer doubt made amongst thē, but that they ought to haue their maintenaunce of the parish: and so likewise must the poore widdows. But as touching the rest, there hath been made some questiō. It was a good deuise of Beza, that princes & noblemē might be elders: & so was it of our learned Discourser that the worshipfull gentlemē of euery parish might be chosē Deacons. The rby indeed the parishes might saue charges. For if they be able to liue of themselues: then they must not burden the parish (in Cartwrightes opinion) but serue vpon their own charges. The Elders at Geneua, (being all of them states-men, I meane such as be of their Senates; men conueniently a­ble to liue of thēselues) haue no allowance for any thing that I can find. But where the Elders are poore men, so as their attending vpon their offices, might greatly hinder them;T.C. Lib. 1. pag. 187. then M. Cartwright hath decided the question, & affirmeth by S. Paules Rule (as he saith) that they ought to bee plentifully maintained by the Church. How far this word plentifully will be extended; I know not. But a man may gesse. The humble motioner would haue the Pastor and Teacher in euerye parish, to haue allowed vnto thē two hundred pounds yearly: in chiefer places more, [Page 230] and in none lesse then two hundred markes. By which rate I imagine that their Elders (being so great men by their office and the gouernors of the parish) cannot well be alowed vnder fortie pound a peece yearely. The dea­cons that carrie the purse (if they be not well looked vn­to) will bee their owne caruers: but surely their stipend will be for euerie one of them aboue fortie markes. As for the Widdowes they cannot well liue to attende the sicke and wash the Saincts feete: with lesse: then twen­tie nobles a yeare, how many of them so euer they are. All which summes, being cast together: will prooue a rancke charge, to be imposed vpon euery parish. But yet this is not all. For how shall the pastors & doctors wiues and children liue: when their husbands and pa­rents are deade? This is also foreseene. Prouision must be made not only for the ministers sustentatiō during their liues, but also for their wiues and children after them. For we iudge it a thing most contrarious to reason, History of the Church of Scot. pag. 560. &c: godlines & equi­tie, that the widow and children of him, who in his life time did faithfully serue the church of God, should after his death bee left comfortles of all prouision. In what sort, these widdows are to bee relieued: I finde not anye particulars of it. But they maie not bee, of the number, of the Church officers; except they be threescore yeares of age, or haue some priuileges by their late husbands for those roomes. And as touching the childrē of ministers, this order is required for thē:Ibid. that the men childrē may haue the liberties of the cities adiacent, where their fathers labored, freely graunted thē: that they be sustained at learning, if they be foūd apt therto: and fayling thereof, that they bee put to some handicraft or ex­ercise in some vertuous industrye: and likewise for the women children, that they be vertuously brought vp, & honestly doted, [Page 231] when they come to maturity of yeares, at the discretion of the Church &c. Not at the peoples discretiō who must bear the charge: but as it shall please their Elderships to taxe them.

Furthermore, and besides the officers and charges mentioned:Disc. sacra. it is also ordered by the new Booke of our Englishe Discipline, that there ought to be in euery parishe, a Colledge or certaine number of young Diuines: such as are meet for the exercises to Diuinity, and especially to expound the Scri­ptures: whereby they may bee trained vp by preaching. And all these must be likewise maintained, diuitum liberalitate, by the liberality of the richer. Here you see is charge vppon charge. But indeede it were a notable matter, to haue a Colledge of young Prophets in euerie parishe. In the Vniuersities there are Schooles, for reading of Lectures and for disputatiōs: but (as our platformers tell vs) these their parish Schooles of Diuinitie, are chiefly for prea­ching. They must preach priuatly amongst themselues by course: and hauing an auncienter Diuine with them, (I suppose it will fall to the Pastors lotte,) they are after­wardes to confer of the faultes or defects, which are found in the young preacher, and to tell him of them, that he may amend them. Certainely if these men had beene suffered to haue runne on foreward, I feare they would haue runne madde. What speculations be these? All their Elders must be such men, as Sainct Paul requi­reth a Bishop to be: they must be able to preach in their Consistories, and priuately. And now you must haue in euery parish diuerse young men, such as are meet for the exercises of Diuinity before they be admitted. And where will they haue all these? It was precisely saide of Maister Cartwright, vz. thus in effect: Neuer let that trou­ble [Page 232] you: set vp the Eldership, choose your Elders, &c. & God wil make them fit for their charges vpon a soddain. It had been verie prouidentlie handled of him, if he had likewise taught the people, that they should neuer haue sticked for anie cost, which they were to bestow for the maintenance of the said Church-officers, though they should bee twise as many: because in bestowing their goods after that sorte, God will make them rich and fill their tubbes, their oile bottles▪ their barns and their pur­ses vpon the soddaine.

It was but a simple suite▪ made by the author of the complaint of the comminalty:Complaint of the commi­nalty. that as the Papistes builte Seminaries to aduaunce the kingdome of the Diuell: so there might be more Colledges, and Seminaries of true Religion erec­ted. For now you see, it is appointed: that there shalbe such a Seminarie in euery parish. And how the coiners of this deuise, did euer grow into anie such conceite: I cannot certainelie gesse, except it bee, because there is such a kinde of Schoole or Seminarie in Geneua. Indeed when the State there had seazed vppon the Church-li­uinges: they erected a Schoole with some small allow­ance, according as our English prouerbe runneth, of ta­king away a goose and sticking down a feather. The pro­fit which they haue by the one, exceedeth far the charge of the other. If now our men could inuent such a way for euery parish: peraduenture they might bee heard. They talke indeede of a matter, how to haue their Elder­ships with all the appertenannces thereunto belonging,Humble moti­on. Complaint Trauersi dis. Eccles. The learned discourse. and yet not greatly to ouercharge any parishes. But it is not after the fashion of Geneua. There the Magistrates fleeced the church, but they would haue all themselues: the Bishops liuinges, Cathedrall Churches, Impropria­tions, [Page 233] and rather then faile all the Abbaie landes, and such thinges as did belong to all the rest of the houses of Religion. If any parish in England should aske my coun­sell, whether I thought they might safely enter into such a present charge for the maintenance of so many Pastor, Doctor, Elders, Deacons, Widdowes, Ministers wiues, their children, and poor Students of Diuinities in hope that all the saide Church-liuings should be bestowed for their ease, vpon such their Church officers: I should say vnto them (if I spake my conscience) that I my selfe am far from anie such cogitation. No, no, for al the outcries that the Disciplinarians make (as in the next chapter you shall perceiue:) that all the Church-liuings, might bee emploide to the maintenaunce of them and their Elder­ships: well they may procure in some other age, the fur­ther impouerishing of the Church, but they shall be sure to be little the better for it.

EXperience they say is not a foolishe mistres: but a mistres of fooles. In the beginning of the late reforma­tion of Religion, in most places of Europe, diuers notable mē did gret­ly ouershoote themselues. It is Ari­stotles rule, that one waie to come to the meane, is to proceed ab extremo in extremum, from one extremity to another. And it may holde in the example by [Page 234] him alledged, of making a crooked sticke to be straight: but it is not to be allowed of in anie sort, in the course of Diuinitie. There it is reckned a point of great weak­nes, (and so it is also with the prophane writers,) to run from one extremitie to another. Manie examples I could bring of this weakenes: as how in manie places, men haue leapt from auricular confession, to the contempt of all priuate conference with their Pastor: from pharifai­call long praiers, vppon a paire of beades, three or foure times said ouer by tale, at one time, to little praier at all, two or three words, (if so manie) and farewel: (agreable to mens consciences, euen as the Prouerb faith. A short horse is soone curried:) from most gros and palpable I­dolatrie and superstition, vnto verie great securitie and prophanation. Manie other such examples I might al­ledge, of running from one mischiefe to another: but there is none fitter then of the course which hath beene held, in this verie matter, whereof I intreate.

In times past, men thought they could not giue too much to the church, but now many suppose, they cānot take too much frō the Church. In times past there was so much giuen to the church, that the k. of England was fain to make a lawe for the staie of so great liberality,Exod. 36. (as Mo­ses did when there was sufficient prouision made for the building of the temple): but now mens harts are grown to such a contrary extremitie, and are so far from incur­ring any danger in breaking that law for restraining thē, as notwithstanding her most excellent M. hath cōtinued & made her self, very many notable laws, that the church might keepe that which other men hath giuen her, and for the binding of mē, to pay their duties to the Church: yet euerie man seeth how vnder pretence of conceale­ments, [Page 235] and by many other meanes the Church-goods are thirsted after, and how the poore ministers are most pittifully defrauded in the paiment of such duties, as do belong vnto them. Insomuch (by report) as now in son­drie places, if they shal but seek or sue to haue their own: either they are greatlie misliked, or presentlie are indited for common Barators: or if they escape that, out flieth a prohibition from one place, a sequestration frō another, and I know not what else, nor from whence.

And the cause of these & many other such extremities, I doe not impute so much vnto the laitie, as to sundrie men of the Clergie: whose proceedings haue ben great­ly by extremities. It was an extremitie, when Wickliffe af­firmed, that tithes (appointed by God himselfe) were merae eleemosynae, meere almes. But of all extremities, that passeth, where some now a daies would haue all taken from the Church, that so Ministers might liue, as they did in the Apostles times; that is, onelie vppon volunta­rie contributions. And this they thinke, to be a part of the Apostolicall reformatiō, which they seek for. Wher­unto I (for my part) might peraduenture yeelde, if the laitie would be sworne before they tooke that from vs, which we haue alreadie: to deale with vs indeed for our prouision and maintenaunce, as preachers were dealt with all in the Apostles times.

I know, what will here be aunswered. When wee see that you that be Ministers, are become such men as the Apostles were, we will vse you as they were vsed. What? will ye persecute vs▪ No, we will bring that which wee haue, and laie it at your feete. I beshrew my heart if I be­lieue you. But if I did, the matter were not great. For there neuer were such men, nor euer shall be to the end [Page 236] of the world, as the Apostles were. So as where they li­mit their liberalitie with that caution: it is asmuch as if they should saie: we would be glad to finger that which you haue, and then get more as you could. Nay it smel­leth surely of a greater prophanation. For your ministers do teach you now the same doctrine: that the Apostles taught. And would you desire more? Doe you look for it at their hands, that they should worke miracles? Is your pretended great zeale come to this, that now you haue neede of miracles?

If anie man thinke I fight against mine own shadowe, and that there are none so wickedlie bent, as to wishe an vtter spoile of the Church: he is to be aduertised that M. Barrow, Barrow. p. 55. 58. 61 with all his Sectaries (moe in number then is i­magined,Petition to her Maie. p. 49 and latelie increased by one, a franticke peti­tioner) they are the men. Indeed the other sort of Con­sistorial reformers, are growen to be wiser. For a while, it is true, that manie of them dreamed of such a matter. They talked, how much of the church liuings, might be emploide this waie, and how much that waie. Tithes were Popish toies:Humble mo­tion p. 100.&c yet laie men might haue them, and Ministers should be paide out of the Exchequor. The humble motioner maketh mention of some such waie, to put Ministers to their pensions: but he confuteth it and brocheth another deuise of his owne.Disc. Eccl. fol. 95.96. Trauerse he doth not thinke that Tithes are due by the worde: but yet he would haue them to be continued to the church, howbeit not to be gathered in such sort as they are. The Magnifico could be content to haue the Tithes: but for sooth Princes must take order to haue thē brought tru­lie into the Ministers Barns, that they maie not be trou­bled with so base a thing, as to looke to the manner of [Page 237] tithing. Nescio quid habet sordidi singulorum agros, ne fal­latur, aestimare, &c. that is, as his Translator in Cābridge saith: It is a base and vile thing for them to view euery mans fielde, least they be deceaued, and to knowe the number and in­crease of euery mans flocke, or cattell: and of other thinges &c. Manie Ministers in some Countries not far from hence, who thinke themselues as iollie fellowes as Maister Tra­uerse, would be glad with all their harts to abase them­selues to this nescio quid sordidi, if they might.

When reformation of Religion was first vrged, it was thought such an effectual motiue, as would procure attention, vz. to intitle Princes after a sort to the church­goods. The learned men perswaded themselues, that if by anie pollicie they could ouerthrow poperie, it would be afterwardes a verie easie matter to recouer them a­gaine. If error and superstition had beene so beneficiall to the Church, they nothing doubted, but that truth and sinceritie would bring forth at the least as plentifull fruictes. Besides, they did not so yeelde ouer their right in those matters to Princes: but it was done with diuers cautions and prouisoes, by vertue whereof they suppo­sed in time, to recouer all againe into their own handes. But it is not good to dallie with Princes. Indeede they plaide, warye beguile themselues: which since hath won­derfullie mooued them. And now they (all of them in a manner) doe runne vppon this ground, vz. that Kinges and Princes are bound by the word of God to restore to the Church such goods, as heretofore they haue taken from her: and generally that nothing once separated from a common vse, and bestowed vppon the Church, may be afterwards alienated to anie other vse.

Cardinall Sadolette charging the Ministers of Geneua: Sadol to the Gene. p. 162 [Page 238] that by the which course they had taken there: they did nouas sibi potentias & nouos honores quaerere, seek to themselues newe powers and new honors: [...]al. to Sad. p. 172. M. Caluin aunswereth in this sort, that they did not affect nor gape after any other riches or dignities, then such as at that time was fallen to their lot: testes erunt omnes qui nos audierunt: as all they can witnes that haue heard vs. Howbeit the perceiued within a while after, that the ministers had too little, and that the ciuile magistrats had greatlie ouerreached them in that behalfe. Where­uppon he began in all his sermons for the most part, to insist much vppon the restitution of the Church-goods. Capito confesseth in generall termes (but such as may wel be extended to this matter) that the rash dealing, which had ben practised, for the abolishing of Poperie, had ben very inconuenient. Dominus videre dat &c. God dooth le [...] vs now see &c. quantum praecipiti indicio, vehementia (que) in­consulta abijciendi ita pontificis nocuerimus: Epist. to Farel. in Cal. Epist. 6. what hurt we haue done by rash iudgement, and inconsiderate vehemency of bani­shinge the Pope after such a manner. One Zuickius fin­ding the mischiefe also in Constance, of the Magistrates grapling verie greedilie for the Churche-goodes:Zuick. to Cal. in Cal. Epi. 33. wri­teth thus to Maister Caluin. Quanta bonorum Ecclesiasti­corum s [...]l ratio habenda, &c. What regard there ought to be had of the goods of the Church, I need not to recite: vse your inde­uour with all good men, that they woulde exhorte our Magi­strates earnestly to the lawfull vse of those goods. Huc enim ventum videtur, &c. For nowe it seemeth to be come to this passe (which I say not without griefe) that a great part of our Magistrates doe belieue, that then onely indeede, they escape from vnder the kingdome of Antichrist, si cum bonis ecclesiae ludant pro libito, nec vlli disciplinae subsint, if they may play with the goodes of the Church at their pleasures, and be subiect [Page 239] to no kinde of Discipline. O egregium Christianismum: O worthy Christianitie.

Whether Maister Caluin did satisfie Zuickius desire, in mouing the magistrates of Constance, to the effect menti­oned; I know not. But what he writ to Farellus (vpon the very same occasion): you shall heare. The church­liuings, were vsed in the very same manner at Neocome; that they were at Constance. Farellus, being the minister, intreated M. Caluin to write to the magistrats at Neocome: for their desisting from that sacrilegious course. To whō Maister Caluin returned this answere, in effect: vz. that they themselues, the ministers at Geneua, were as hardlye handled in the same respect, with their owne magistrats: and that it were therefore a very absurd point for him to seeke to reforme the magistrates of other Cities abroad, before he should haue reformed his owne first at home. His wordes are: as it followeth. Timendum est &c. It is to be feared, Calu. epist. 66. least wee seeme ridiculous to your magistrats, in re­quiring that of them, which as yet wee haue not obtained of our owne. We shall teach, what the right vse is of church, goods, and who are the lawfull Stewardes of them, that by our autho­ritie wee maie vrge those of Neocome. Cur non potius exor­dium a nobis facimus? But first why do not we begin with our selues▪ Take heede therefore least in attempting to do you good, that we doe not rather hurt your cause. How much more forcea­ble would that be, which is in the booke, that I procured to be printed when I was at Strasburgh. For there the Princes, as ma­ny as imbrace the gospel, do promise the restitution of all, which they haue in their possessions, if once there were any godly con­cord agreed vpon. Your magistrates are to be admonished by the example of those Princes, that at the least vntill that time, they would keepe them all wholy together vndisposed of, or distracted [Page 240] in their owne hands. You will aske me why I cease or hold my peace, if I see the same mischiefe in Geneua that vexeth you? E­go verònō cesso &c. I do not (truly) cease openly in my sermons, as oft as oportunitie serueth therunto. Contestor Deum & homi­nes, graue nobis imminere iudicium. I do with griefe & prai­er call God and men to witnes, that a heauie iudgement hangeth ouer our heades. I haue also affirmed diuerse times asmuch in our Senate: neither doe I thinke that as yet I haue discharged my dutie, seing I haue nothing preuailed. But I do follow Am­brose, who retayning the doctrine and the place of a pastor, so as in defence of them he was ready to haue spent his life; agros ty­rannidi Imperatoris Valentiniani sinebat: hee permitted the possessions of the Church to the tiranny of Valentinian the Em­peror. For our magistrates do suspect, that the strife is, but of emulation, as though our griefe onely were, that they haue wrong those thinges out of our fingers which now they possesse: excepte peraduenture they giue it so out, not because they thinke so, but for that they would thereby discredit our words in that behalfe. But yet notwithstanding we must so auoyd suspition, that we doe not winke at sacriledge.

And againe, the same maister Caluin in another epistle to Viretus: doth signifie vnto him, how he dealt with the magistrates of Geneua, at one especiall time, when there was speach about certaine stipends. When I sawe howe hard they were in that matter, acriter aurem illis vellicaui &c. I made their eares to burn (saith he) as concerning the admini­stration of Church-goods: how in time they were to thinke, what account they should make both to God, Cal. to Viret epist. 108. and men: Papam fuisse furem et sacrilegum, videndum ne simus successores, that the Pope was a thiefe and a church robber, and they were to looke to it, that they proued not his successors. I did vse a preface, that might cause attention: vz. That the woundes of a friend were [Page 241] better &c. and that they should not seeke any Balaam, qui il­lis in maledictione benediceret, who in their cursed estate should blesse them. Hitherto maister Caluin; whose wordes I haue set down at large: that you might the better vnder­stand, the estate of the most worthy Reformation of the church of Geneua: and how the discipline being there in her full prime and brightnes, it is not possible that anye grosse enormities should continue in that Citie. Indeed it is much, and I meruaile how it is endured, that maister Caluin should resemble the magistrates of Geneua, to such cruell, tyrannouse, and sacrilegious persons, Valentini­an the Emperor, and the Pope of Rome. But most of all I wonder that maister Beza would publish such letters in print. Being but written to priuate men: the matter could not be great. Marry now they are thus offred to all posteritie: the testimonie of such tyrannous sacrilege will be euer had in memorie. For which kind of dealing: they are much beholden to Beza. It was indeed, hand­led of him politickly. Of likelyhood the sacrilege men­tioned doth continue there still. But he being a proui­dent man, thought it better that maister Caluin, being dead should tell them of it; then he himselfe being aliue, and therefore subiect vnto their displeasures. For other­wise maister Beza for his parte, is as earnest against sacri­lege, as euer maister Caluin was: and it may be for ought I do know, or remember to the contrarie, that hee hath dealt himselfe as roundly with them. But sure I am of his iudgement: which doth appeare in his treatise of his three sortes of Bishops,Beza. where this question being pro­pounded vnto him: vz. Whether these thinges which had beene once vowed to holy vses, might afterwardes bee otherwise employed: he maketh this answere: Concerning the goodes [Page 242] of the Church: first of all we suppose great heed ought to be taken, that none doth staine himselfe with handling the church goods. For if God hath taken reuenge of such sacrilege, euen amongst the very Idolaters, what trow we will his iudgement bee against them which haue spoyled his Church: and haue prophaned the thinges which were set a part for his true worship. Moreouer it is euident, that this turneth greatly to the reproch of the name of God, and of his holy gospell: as though for sooth papistrie hath beene abandoned not for the loue of the truth, but to robbe the Church of her goodes: as though new theeues haue entred into the roomes of the olde▪ &c. Viretus in like manner, for his earnestnes in this pointe,Viret 3. dial. of white diucles. is neither short of Caluin not Beza. The lesse authoritie that the ministerye and ministers haue: the greater libertie haue sacrilegers, theeues, extortioners, and other wicked ones. Againe, I know many which liked the gospell well, when in the beginning their preachers cryed against the abuse, that they sayd was in the Romish church, and in priests and monkes. They liked well also that the goods of the Church should be taken from Priests and Monkes, to haue the gouern­ment of them themselues, vnder colour that the Priests and Monkes abused them, and that they should be put to better vse: but God knoweth how euill they are bestowed vppon manye, and in many places. The worst is, that those which haue not done herein as they ought, and which dayly forget themselues more & more, cannot now a dayes so much as suffer the preachers to ad­monish & reproue them, & to stir thē vp to bestow it where they ought to bestow it, according to the order & discipline &c. ibidem. And in another place. These fellowes (that will not restore the church-liuings) may be likened to those Diuils, which cry: why art thou come to torment vs before our time? And the same fellowes also say: Qui nostra tollit, inimicus est: hee that taketh awaye ours, is our enemie. They regard not whether [Page 243] they haue gotten the goods, that they possesse, well or euill: where­fore they esteeme all those to bee enemies, that in reason de­maunde restitution of them, and declare that it belongeth not vnto them, but that they haue stollen it awaye from the Church. ibidem Likewise afterwardes: I doubt not, but if they were called to account, for the bestowing of such goods: and if it were taken out of their handes, as it was taken from Priestes and Monkes,ibidemand giuen to such as should better bestowe it: they would take pepper in the nose, & fall to playing the Diuels part. Lastlye, I put the case (sayth he) that a whorehunter or baude steale an honest mans wife, and the husbande commeth and de­mandeth this wise of this russiā that hath stollen her away: and reuileth this Russian or Baude, for the wronge that he hath done him, and goeth to lawe with him, whereby there ariseth great strife: I would aske of thee, who were in the fault? Eyther the husband, who hath had this wronge: or the Rauisher who hath played him this wicked pranke? And the answere is thus framed: The whorehunter or baude, hath as much reason to complaine and bee angrie, as hath a theife or robber: which is called to account of thefts and robberies, which hee hath com­mitted, and which is called to iudgement for the same.

But I will come from Geneua into England: Admonitio 2. to the parlia. 15 7 2: that you maie perceiue, what our chiefe disciplinarie Reformers, do thinke of this matter. It is no better then sacrilege and spoiling of God (saie the Authours of the second Admo­nition 157 7 2, to keepe backe any way the prouision) which hath beene made for the ministery. And the curse of God threatened by Malachie, to those that spoyled the Leuites then: belongeth & will light vppon our spoylers now, and vppon them, in whose bandes it is to redresse it, if they do it not. The Author of the booke, de disciplina ecclesiastica, speaking of Bishops liuings &c. saith thus: of many in these daies, who vnder a pre­tence [Page 244] of zeale, do cry out for reformation. Haec orati [...] gratissima est nonnullis, qui suam causam agi putant, et iampri­dem haereditatem istam spe deuorarunt. Fol. 94. These wordes &c. are most acceptable to some, who thinke they tende to theyr profitte, and haue alreadye in hope deuoured this inheri­taunce. For they thinking that wee seeke onlie, that Bishops might be spoyled, doe expect thereby the like praye, that they got by the ruines of Monasteries. For as for religion they care not, what become of it, modò ipsi praedari possint, so they may waxe welthyer by sacrilege & robbery: and would not sticke (if it were possible) to crucifie Christ againe, vt tunicam eius sortirentur, ibid. fol. 87: et vestimenta diuiderent &c. But this our age hath many such Souldiers, many such Dionysians, who thinke that a golden gowne is not fit for God neyther in summer nor winter: and yet that it will serue them well at all times and seasons. Againe, They had rather all religion were banished, that al opinion of worshiping & fearing God were abolished, that all fayth in Christ, & hope and looking for euerlasting life, were forgotten amongst men, Ibidem fol: 95. then to maintaine it with anye pennye of theirs. Yea further, they will not only giue nothing to the main­tenance of the ministery: but most vniustly scrape vnto thēselues, that which was liberally giuen by others: & spoyle the Church, robbing her of her goods &c. But they must eyther restore it againe, that the church may be prouided-for of worthy teachers, or else make themselues guiltye of the losse and destruction of so many soules,ibidem fol. 97.as by theyr meanes are destitute of a preacher, and shall perish in their ignorance. And againe: Let good prin­ces not only not spoyle the ministerie themselues, or suffer it to be robbed of others: but liberally according to the commaunde­ment of our Sauiour Christ, see it maintayned and prouided for through their Kingdomes: nor suffer that which was once gi­uen to this end, to be prodigally spent & wasted, in aulicos luxus [Page 245] atque delicias; nor bestowed vppon Noblemens seruaunts, nor o­ther innumerable sortes of so vng [...]dly and intollerable abuses, by sacrilege & the church robbery &c. M. Cartwright also, in his last booke very well allowing of the former mans iudge­ment, and vtterly misliking of such greedy cormorants (for so he termeth them) as gape after the pray, (at large before mentioned) writeth in this sort. Our meaning is not, that these goodes should be turned from the possession of the Church, to the filling of the bottomlesse sackes of their greedy appetites, which yawne after this pray, and wold therby to their perpetuall shame purchase thēselues a field of blood. There was a booke published,Supplicat. of the commi­nalty. in the parliament time 1585. intituled, A la­mentable complaint of the Cominaltie. Wherein the authors haue at large handled this matter. Know ye not (say they) That the vniust shall not inherit the kingdome of God▪ What greater iniustice then to defraude God of his glory, the ministers of theyr right &c. How can wee saie that wee loue Christ? No not so much as Antichrist loueth the Diuell. For Anti­christ is bountifull to maintaine his seruice; if the like liberality were vsed amongst vs, without all doubt a great number would be stayed from passing the Seas to Roome or Rhemes to become Iesuits. We read Leuit. 27. That nothing seperate from com­mon vse may be sould &c. because it was holy vnto the Lorde. The which Law is not ceremoniall but iudicial:ibidem. the equitie ther­of endureth to the Church for euer, & the violation of the same lawe, hath beene horriblye punished in former dayes; as appear­eth by the examples of Achan, Nabuchadnezar, Balthazar, Ananias, and Saphira &c. And the like iustice no man can escape either in this world, or in the world to come, that commit­teth the like offence. Vppon that place of Mal. where it is sayd: That the spoyling of the Priestes was the spoyling of god: Thus also they write.ibidem Hath not the whole nation of Eng­land [Page 246] spoyled the Lord in like manner, and rather more? Surely this is written for our learning, that we might know that things consecrated to God for the seruice of his church belong vnto him for euer.

A number moe, of such speaches; I could alledge out of their writings. But these may serue to let you know, that whatsoeuer in times past, any of their sort did seeme to yealde vnto for a time, touching the alienation of Church-liuings: yet this was alwaies their purpose, to get them againe into their owne handes in the end. It had beene a happie matter for the Church, if this lesson had been euer obserued: Thou shalt not do euill, that good may come of it. Things had not thē growen to such extre­mities: as they are brought vnto in many places. When the Sea maketh a breach, it is hardly stopped: and a dore once opened to such impietie; will be hardly shut againe. And yet (you see) they do what they can to shut it, now that they perceaue the verie great falsehood, which they find in their owne fellowship. Certaine hypocriticall Bretheren of the Laytie, haue clapped them (as it seem­eth) vppon the shoulders, followed their sermons, set thē at the vpper ende of their tables, and sought by all their strength to procure them credit & fauour with the peo­ple: not that they cared either for them, or for Religiō, or for Christ himselfe: but hopinge that by the violent course, which they saw these men run into, the Bishops, & the rest of the Cleargie; would be growē in short time to be so odious: as it would be a very small matter, to dis­posses thē of all their liuings, wherof some portiō might come to their shares. Which māner of pollicy now (you may perceiue) these brethrē haue espied, & therfore they spare not (as you haue hard) to set forth such hipocrits in [Page 247] their plainest colors, very liuelie & (in their opiniō) truly.

God of his infinit mercie multiplie her M. daies, that she maie raigne many and manie yeares still ouer vs. If it had not beene, for her most princelie and most religi­ous care of the Church, the children of Edom, had long before this time greatlie indaungered it. But this I will say vnto thē: that if euer they obtain their desires (which I know they shal neuer do in her highnes time) they shal not possesse a pennie worth of the church-goods, which (I am perswaded) will not prooue vnto them, to be like the gold of Tholossa, wherof none had part, that euer pro­spered afterward. I could shew some reasons of this my perswasion, but I am a man not verie grateful to that sort of reformers. I will therefore spare that paines, and the rather, because their own maisters hau [...] dealt plainlie i­nough with them alreadie. This onelie I will adde, com­mitting it to their discretions, to be considered off at their leasures. There was neuer anie nation so barba­rous, but it thought there was a God. Againe, there was neuer any nation that thought there was a God, but it likewise acknoledged, that the same God had his priests to teach the people his will. Againe there were neuer as yet (to my knowledge) anie men in the world, but belie­uing there was a God, and acknowledging his Priestes, they haue alwaies either in truth, or at the least in shew, depēded vpon their priests instructions, as touching the wil & seruice of God. Which points being true, I would gladlie know, of anie Sacrilegious Disciplinarian, what sort of Priests they are, whose aduise he followeth. Some he must needs follow, except he will professe himselfe to be in the number of those, that say in their harts there is no God. Doth he follow the Priests of the heathē? why, [Page 248] they euer thought that it was vnlawfull for anie man to spoil his God. Doth he follow the Popish Priests? There are no men (surelie) that crie out more earnestly against Sacriledge. Doth he follow the councell of any Priestes which haue embraced the Gospell▪ No Priest that fea­reth God will teach him so. Some Priests in this latter age haue beene mistaken. But if anie did euer teach so, he may perceaue, by that which I haue said, that they haue repented them of it.

For nowe they tell all, who will be their schollers, that they may not indeuour to alienate the church-liuinges from the ministerie. Or if they will needes, vnder pre­tence of zeale and shewe of religion, seeke to deuoure Christes patrimony; then they doe vtterfly disclaime & renounce them, from being of their Disciples any lōger.

Then Zuickius assureth them: that they are but hypo­criticall christians. Caluin compareth them, (be they the Magistrates of Geneua, or of anie other countrie) to cruel tyraunts, and saith, they are the Popes successors in theft and robberie. Beza is resolute, that God will be reuen­ged of such persons, & telleth thē, they are new theeues, that haue entred in place of the old theeues. Viretus ma­keth them wors then friers & monks: & resembleth them to white diuels. Trauers saith in effect, that they are christs mortall enemies, and would crucifie him againe, for his coate, if they might laie their hands on him. Cartwright calleth them cormorants, and likeneth them to Iudas the Traitor: certifying them, that in spoiling of the Church, they purchase to themselues a field of blood. The whole comminaltie of England, complaineth and crieth against thē: that they hate Christ, that they defraud God of his glorie, that they are (all the sort of them) no better then [Page 249] Achan, Nabuchadnezar, Baltasar, Ananias or Saphira: that the punishment which did light vpon these church rob­bers, shall light vppon them, either in this life, or in the world to come: and that they are to be reckoned a­mongst those vniust persons, that shall neuer enter into the kingdome of heauen.

So as this is the point, which (as I said) I doe commit vnto the inward cogitations of all prophane Church-robbers, vz. to thinke with themselues, what God they serue, and what Priests they are, that teach them suche lewd doctrine: or if none teach them so, whether in ta­king so execrable a course of their own heads, they con­demne not themselues in their own consciences. There is here no refuge for anie such persons, that I knowe of, or anie replie to be made against the premises. Except they will saie that Barrowes God is their God, that Green­wood is their Priest, and that they are all of them, deuo­ted to Greenwood and Barrow. Greenwood is but a simple fellow, Barrow is the man. And will sacrilegious persons become Barrowists ▪ I easilie belieue it. Like will to like. When Barrow by roisting and gaming had wasted him­selfe, and was [...]unne so far into manie a mans debt, that he durst not shew his head abroad: he bent his wits a­nother waie to mischiefe, and is now become a Iulianist, deuising by all the meanes he can possiblie imagine, his hypocrisie, railing, lying, and all manner of falshood, e­uen as Iulian the Apostata did: how all the preferments, which yet remaine for learning, Benefices, Tithes, Gle­belād, Cathedrall Churches, Bishops liuings, Colledges, Vniuersities and all, might be vtterlie spoiled and made a pray for Bancrouts, Cormorants & such like Atheists. Well to conclude, come the spoile of the church here­after, [Page 250] when for our sinnes it shall, manie mischiefes and great confusion will follow it. The Church-liuings, will serue but a few mens turnes. The particular parishes in England may whistle after their parts of that praie: and so may our new maisterships Eldership. There are examples in the world, where al the Church-liuings are consumed by a few: and the parishes stand burdened as they were before. Mary if they should be then so ouerburdened with so manie new paimēts, as I spake of in the last chap­ter, they would neuer be able to endure it. And therfore it is verie high time, that our zealous Disciplinarians, should inueigh against Church-robbers, and that the cō ­mon people should likewise remember the points of Sa­criledge and sacrilegious persons, which they haue pub­lished to the world in their printed Supplication, against all the new Iulianistes and Atheists mentioned.

IN the beginning of the reformation of Religion in Germany, the learned men there, (opposing themselues verie mightely against the Popes vsurped iurisdiction:) did verie learnedly and soundlie shew and proue to their ad­uersaries, the soueraigne authority of Christian Kinges and Princes, in causes Ecclesiasticall, within their owne dominions and countries. Which authoritie (vppon the banishment of the Pope) as well [Page 251] there as after also in England, was both there and here v­nited by diuerse laws, vnto the interest of their Crowns, and to the lawfull right of ciuile regiment. This doctrine since that time, hath beene so very throughly maintai­ned, by sundrie notable men, as Brentius against Aso­to: Bishop Horne against Fecknam: Bishop Iuell against Harding and many other learned men, against such other Papistes as haue taken vppon them to impugne it: that I am perswaded, had it not beene that newe aduersaries did rise & opposed themselues in the matter, the Papists before this time had beene vtterlie subdued.

For either vppon the attempt in Geneua, for the erec­ting of the Consistorian gouernment (which cannot en­dure any superior authority ouer it in causes Ecclesiasti­call) when Caluin and Viretus, were banished the Citty: or else vppon their restitution, and after they had pre­uailed in their said attempt, the Ministers there, whether in reuenge of their banishment, or least their Magistrats should at any time to come, giue eare to the aforesaide Doctrine, I will not saye: but vppon some such occa­sion, they did presentlie thrust themselues into this que­stion. & that with such spitefull railing and bitternes, as though they had conspired with the Pope and his Pro­ctors, against al other reformed churches, that (reiecting their pretended Discipline or new Papacie indeed) had submitted themselues vnto the said lawfull authority of Christian Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall. And hereof it came (to speake the trueth plainelie) that Caluin could not abide, that King Henrye the eight should bee tear­med, the head, or supreme gouernour in Earth of the Churches of God within his Dominions. And wri­ting to one Myconius, how certaine men in Geneua per­swaded [Page 252] the Magistrates there,Epist. 54. Ne potestate, quam illis Deus contulisset, se abdicaerent, that they woulde not depriue them­selues of that authoritie, which God had giuen them: he tear­meth them (according to the Consistorian language) prophane spirites and mad men: whom (saith he) if we (spea­king of himselfe and his fellowes) shall ioine together to en­counter, and with a valiant and inuincible zeale fight for that holy authority, (vz. Cōsistorian &c) the Lord with the breath of his mouth will destroy.

Epist. 47.The saide Myconius in like sorte reporteth to Caluin from Basill: how some in those borders did write to the like purpose in the behalfe of Christian Magistrates: alledging the examples of Moises, Dauid, and other godlye Kinges, which (saith hee in effect) is to make them Popes: and then addeth: quid si laici huiusmodi argumentis fue­rint persuasi? what if lay men shall be perswaded by such ar­gumentes? Indeede, that will cutte the throate of all your soueraigntie. But of all others that haue opposed them­selues to Christian Princes in this matter: (besides Martin-Marre-Prelate and some such like companions amongest vs) Viretus for rayling, scoffing and biting, passeth and excelleth. Those that stand in defence of the Magistrates authoritie, he resembleth to white Di­uels:3. Dialogue of whi [...]e D [...]uels. G. 7, and saith, They are false Christians, though they couer themselues with the cloake of the Gospell, and the reformation of the same. And againe: The Ministers, that haue forsaken the Romish Church, in seeking to get the Magistrates and peo­ples fauour against the Pope, Priestes, and Monkes, haue so despised the state of Priestood, I 3. and Ministery of the Church: and so magnified the state of the Magistrate, that they now feele the fruict thereof: he meaneth that the goods of the Church are thereby gone and wasted.

[Page 253]Further saith he:I 4. they thought it a goodby reformation in the Churche, to abolishe all the Canons and decrees, with the good Statutes, which the auncient Fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned, to maintaine good Discipline in the Church. They haue put all into the Magistrates handes, and haue made them maisters of the Church: which (he tearmeth) to be nothing else but the changing of the Popedome: the taking away of both swordes from the Pope, and giuing them to Prin­ces: the euerthrowing of a spirituall Pope, and setting vppe a temporall Pope: which vnder another colour, will all come to one end. I 4. Nay hee taketh vppon him to prooue: that these Temporall Popes, K 2. (as hee tearmeth them) are more to bee feared (if they take roote) and will be worse the [...] the Spirituall Popes: K 3. and that so the olde Popishe [...]yr [...] is not taken awaie, but onely changed and disguised. And his rea­sons are. First, that the olde Pope had not the Temporall sworde in his own hand to punishe with death, but was fayne to praye aide of the secular power, which the ne [...]e Pope's need not to doe. Secondly, that the olde Popes had some regarde in their dealinges, of Councelles, Synodes, and aunciente Canons &c. but the newe Popes will doe what they list, without any Ecclesiasticall order, bee it right or wronge. Thirdlye, because it chaunceth ofte, that these new [...] Popes haue neither learning nor knowledge: and yet these shall bee they that shall commaund Ministers and Preachers what they list, on paine of their sworde and ministerie, and shall appoint them lawes touching their estate and ministery, and likewise to the whole Church.

Giue him also the hearing a little further I praie you, Who so vseth such meanes to reforme the fault of the Pope: K [...]. doth not reforme the Church, but deforme is more then it was before, &c. This I dare say: that I see already in some pla­ces, [Page 254] that, vnder title of reformation by the Gospell, some chri­stian Princes haue in ten or twentie yeares vsurped more ty­ranny, ouer the Churches in their Dominions, then euer the Pope and his adherentes did in sixe hundred yeares. And lastly: If there be any Magistrates in these daies, which vn­der the title of authority and power that God hath giuen them, K [...]. &c. will make the Ministers of the Church subiect vnto them, as the Pope hath made them subiect to him, and his, &c. the same doe verily set vp a newe Pope, changing onely his coate and maske.

And thus far Viretus in his thirde Dialogue of white Diuels: which was not written (I feare) by the instinct of anie good spirite: nor without some euill direction, translated into English of purpose to seede the seditious fier, that our turbulent Copper-smiths, (following this D [...]sciplinarie tract,) haue kindled alreadie amongest vs. I haue omitted his earnestnes in the behalfe of his own and Caluins Discipline: that the authority (thus denied to Princes) might be yeelded to them, and their follo­wers: and that all men (both Princes and others) would be content to submitte their neckes vnder that yoke. Which were to make Princes (saith Erastus trulie) quasi carni [...]ices:Farrago p. 36. as it were the executioners onely of their pleasures, quemadm [...]dun [...] in Papatu factum videmus, as we see it pra­ctised in the Papacy ▪ and in truth is nothing els, but (that I may vse their phrases) to banish one Pope, and admitte of thousands: or to deliuer their Scepters from the ty­rannie of the old Pope, and to subiect them to the tyran­ny of these new Popes,T.C. Beza. Vrsious. De iure regn [...] apud Scot. euen to excommunication as Cart­wright with his English crue doe affirme) and so conse­quently to depriuation or death, as Buchanan the Scottishe Consistorian teacheth.

[Page 255]My purpose is only in this place, to make it knowne: from whence our brotherhood, haue furnished them­selues, with their inuectiues against the authoritye of Princes in causes ecclesiasticall: and that whatsoeuer they pretend in words, yet they are of the same minde; that Viretus is, if they durst so plainly vtter it. Or if they be not, let them confes in print, that the premisses cited (out of his sayde dialogue) are false: and then for that pointe, let them be credited. But that (I am perswaded) they will neuer doe. I am sure if they should: that be­sides their opposition with Geneua, they should also re­cant their owne assertions: which directly exclude the ciuile magistrates from dealing in ecclesiasticall causes. As for example: The Adm. [...] whole gouernment of the Church is to be committed to Ministers, Elders, & Deacons. The Thes. mar. 12 church is now to the worldes end to haue no other offices in it, but of pa­stors, Doctors, Elders, and Deacons. They Dem: cap: 6. which are no Elders of the Church haue nothing to doe in the gouernment of the same. They deuide T.C. Discip. eecl: & all the rest. the Church wherein anye Magistrate King or Emperor is a member, into those which are to gouerne, vz. Pastors, Doctors, and Elders: and into such as are to obey, vz. magistrates of all sortes, & the people.

Indeed Beza, will haue the ciuile magistrate, one of the Church-officers. Cons: cap: 5. But Cartwright, will not consent for his part, Art. 23. to yeald them so much. For (saith he) as Pa­stors cannot bee officers of the common wealth; Lib. 2. pa. 420. no more can the magistrate bee called properlye a church-officer. And in truth, what Beza graunteth: it is in effect nothing, sa­uing for a shew, and to serue their own turnes (forsooth) vt tranquillitatem ecclesiae procurent [...]t tueantur, Beza. de presb Fol. 37. & 43. Their of­fice is to procure and defend the peace of the Church: where­as else where hee agreeth with Viretus, yee may bee [Page 256] sure: and in his Booke against Erastus peremptorily affirmeth: That Princes haue no more to doe with mat­ters of the Church, then Ministers haue with the affayres of the common wealth. Which by their doctrine gene­rallie is none at all. But saide I, hee agreeth with Viretus▪ I might saie rather with Cardinall Allen, and Saunders: if he bee the author of the Booke intituled, Vindicie contra Tyrannos: as it was reported. For there hee saith that if anie Prince shall challenge to himselfe both Tributes (that is,pag. 18. authoritie aswell in Ecclesiasticall causes as ciuile: as by the circumstances of the place it is eui­dent) hee doth, as if hee would (like the old Giaunts) scale hea­uen, and surprise it, and is guiltie of treason: and doth there­by forfeite his fee, that hee holdeth no lesse than a subiect or vassall shall, that vsurpeth the kinges royaltyes: and in this respect such kinges are very often depriued thereof, much more iustlye, then a vassall or subiecte maye bee: insomuch as there is some proportion of comparison betwixte a vassall or sub­iect, and his Lorde: but betwixt God and the king, betwixt a wretched man and the Almightie, there can bee no proportion at all.

Furthermore, Cartwright and some others with him do affirme,T.C. lib. 2. pag. 411.&c. that Kings and princes do holde their kingdomes and dominions, Def. of ecclesi. diset 167. vnder Christ, as hee is the sonne of God onlye, before all worldes coequall with the father:I.B. de policiu. et eccl. pag. a 63. ad 82and not as hee is mediator, the heade and gouernor of the Church. Where­uppon they doe first builde; that all Kinges (aswell hea­then as Christian) receiuing but one commission and equall authoritie immediately from God; haue no more to doe with the Church, the one sorte then the other. as being in no respect deputed for Church officers, vn­der Christ; otherwise then if they bee good Kinges, to [Page 157] maintaine and defende it. And secondlye, that as God hath appoynted all Kinges, and Ciuile Magistrates his immediate Lieutenants for the gouernment of the worlde in temporall causes: so Christ, as hee is media­tor, and gouernour of his Church, hath his immediate officers to rule in the Church vnder him; and those they saie are no other, then Pastors, Doctors, and Elders, to whom they ascribe as large authoritie in causes Ecclesi­asticall.

And all this (as I take it) they haue learned of the Pa­pists. For whereas maister Harding saith, that the of­fice of a King in it selfe is all one, euerie where: not onely amongst the Christian Princes, but also amonge the Heathen; and thereuppon concludeth; that a christi­an Prince, hath no more to doe in the deciding of church-matters; or in making ceremonies and orders for the Church, then a Heathen: Cartwright, alloweth of his iudgement,Lib. 3. pag. 162. 163: and doth expresly affirme: that hee himselfe is of the same opinion,Lib. 2. pag. 147. professing his mislike of those, who teach another right of a Christian and of a prophane magistrate. Whereat Trauerse his scholler aymeth in like sorte: when hee saith in effect: that heathen princes being conuerted to the fayth, Disc. of eccle. disc. pag. 148. 174. receiue no further increase of theyr power, whereby they maye deale in causes ecclesiasticall, then they had before. And lastly, it is no lesse agreeable vnto their seconde assertion: that whereas the Papists saye, the Pope with his Cardinalls and Bishops are a true representation of the Catholicke Church of Christ, vnder whom the Pope (being Peters supposed Suc­cessor) is the ministeriall and immediate chiefe gouer­nour of it here vppon earth: now Cartwright and o­thers doe affirme; that euerye particular parish ha­uing [Page 258] such an Eldershippe in it (as they desire,) is a liue­lye patterne and representation of the whole and catho­licke Church of Christe:T.C. lib. 1. pag. 147. vnder whom (saye they) their Pastors, Doctors, and Elders, are the ministeriall and immediate gouernours by right, of euery such Ca­tholicke parish-Church vppon earth. And thus, (if I bee not deceiued,) that playnelye appeareth, which was in the beginning of this Chapter propounded, vz. that for all their protestations, they derogate from Christian Princes, and arrogate to their Elder­ships, the supreame and immediate authority vnder Christ, in causes ecclesiasticall.

THere is nothing will lightlye anger our pretended Brotherhood more, then if ti be tolde them, that they denie in ef­fect (with the common aduersaries,) her Maisties lawefull stile and prero­gatiue Royall, in causes ecclesiasticall. O [...] saye they, wee doe not: wee are slaundered: wee yealde vnto her Highnes as much authoritie, as anye King maie lawfully challenge: we abbridge her of no­thing that the worde of God alloweth her, and many other such ambiguous protestations they vse to make, in this behalfe. But they plav the deceitfull sophisters: whom the Lord abhorreth. For these are some of their grounds. A man would thinke, that they had taken them [Page 259] out of Hosius. The T.C. lib. 2. pa. 48. Christian soueraigne, ought not to be cal­led the head vnder Christ, of the particular and visible churches vvithin his dominions. No T.C. lib. 2. pa. 157. 167. ciuile magistrat hath preheminēce (by ordinary authoritie) to determine of church-causes. No T.C. lib. 2. pa. 165.154. ciuile magistrat, in Councels or assemblies for church-matters, can either be cheefe moderator, ouer-ruler, iudge, or determiner. No Admon. 2. ciuile magistrat hath such authori­tie, as that vvithout his consent, it should not be lavvfull for ecclesiastical persons, to make any church-order or ceremonie. No Dis. Ec. f. 88 ciuile magistrat ought to receiue, either tenths or first fruits of any ecclesiasticall persons. The T.C. lib. 3. pa. 154. iudgemēt of church­matters pertaineth to God: they Li. 3. p. 153. ought ordinarily to be hand­led by the church-officers: the T.C. lib 3. pa. 154. principallitie or direction of the iudgement of them, is by Gods ordinance pertaining to the ministerie of the Church. As for the T.C. lib. 1. pa. 192. making of orders and ceremonies in the church, they do (vvhen there is a constitu­ted and ordered church) pertaine vnto the ministers of the church, and to the ecclesiasticall gouernors: and that as they meddle not vvith the making of ciuile lavves, and lavves for the common-vvealth, so the ciuile magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies pertaining to the church. The T.C. lib. 1. pa. 193. ministers are to determine of controuersies as they arise, and to make or abolish needfull or hurtfull ceremonies. Herevnto may be added that which is before obserued: how he ascribeth the same right in church causes,T.C. lib. 3. pa. 162. 163.to an infidel or prophane ma­gistrat, that he doth to any Christian princes: and of their mutuall agreement with the Pope himselfe, in the manner of both their excluding of Christian magistrats, from ha­uing any thing to do, as vnder Christ, in his Church.

Hitherto then concerning all these puritane-popish as­sertious (so much derogating from the lawfull authoritie of Christian princes.) There is but only this difference be­twixt [Page 260] them & the rankest Iesuits in Europe, that what the one sort, ascribe to the Pope and his shauelings: the other do challenge to themselues and their Aldermen. Vpon which occasion Cartvvright, T.C. lib. 1. p. 193. finding himselfe with his fellowes ranged, to walke step by step with such a crue, ta­keth vpon him,T.C. lib. 3. pa. 167. like some dawber or bricklaier, to make a high wall (as he tearmeth it) betwixt the Papists, and them in this point. But God knoweth, it is a simple one, and so thinne, that you may easily looke through it, and discerne them marching both togither. First (sayth he) the Papists exempt their priests from the punishment of the ciuile magi­strate, T.C. p. 193. vvhich vve doe not. It is reason in deed, you should not. But if you doe not, what doe these things mean? The author of the second admonition desireth, that he and his companions may be deliuered by act of Parlement, from the authoritie of the ciuile magistrates, Admon. 2. p. 61. as Iustices, and others, and from their inditings and finings. Furthermore where Cartvvright sayth, that the authoritie of christian Princes commeth immediately from God, Lib. 2. p. and not from Christ as he is mediator: and that the authoritie of the svvord is the same ordinance of God, as vvell in heathen princes, as in Christi­ans: doth it not follow, that in his iudgement Christian princes haue no authoritie ouer any of their subiects, but only as they are men, and not as they are either Christians or priests? If you thinke it doth not, then what T.C. wan­teth,I.B. p. 82. I.B. doth supplie, and that in proper tearmes, as if it please you to peruse the place, it will appeare vnto you. Besides, there goeth a letter from hand to hand, written by certaine gentlemen of Suffolke, to the Lords of her ma­iesties councell, wherein there is great complaint made in the behalfe of certaine of the brotherhood, as a matter fit to bee reformed: that being ministers they had at their [Page 261] assises bene presented, brought to the barre, endicted, arraig­ned, and condemned. Which dealing they tearme to be ve­ry hard, and tending to the vtter discredit of the vvhole ministerie, and profession of truth. So that of all likelihood (for all Cartvvrights saying) both he and his fellowes, could be well contented to be exempted from the ciuile magistrats.

But let vs heare the papists vpon this point, or first part of Cartvvrights wall, and peraduenture you shall find them as forward for their subiection herein, as hee himselfe is, or at the least as small a difference betwixt them, as euer you saw, though it were betweene two twi [...]nes Good Harding a­gainst the Apo. 306.307 kings may put bishops and priests in mind of their duties, and bridle both their riot and arrogancie. The Hard. ibid. 303. prince, by the vvord of God, may make lavves for the obseruation of both tables, and punish the trangressors. I do here presently offer my selfe, Fecknam to B. Horne. to receaue a corporall [...]ath vpon the Euangelists, that I do vtterly thinke, and am per­suaded in my conscience, that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this realme, and of all other her highnesse dominions and countries, &c. And further, I shall presently svveare, that her highnesse hath vnder God, the so­ueraignty and rule ouer all maner of persons, borne vvithin these her highnesse realms, of vvhat estate ecclestasticall or temporall soeuer they be. Saunders de vis. Mona. li. 2. cap. 3. Fatemur, person as Episcoparū qui in toto orbe fuerunt, Romano imperatori subiectos fuisse: VVe confesse, that the persons of all the Bishops in the vvorld, vvere subiect to the Romane emperour. Rex praeest hominibus Christianis, verum non quia sunt Christiani, sed quia sunt ho­mines, & quoniam ipsi episcopi sunt homines, episcopis etiam ea ex parte rex praeesset; The king ruleth christiās, not as they are christiās, but as they are men, & because bishops are men, [Page 262] the king, in that respect, hath authoritie ouer them. Harding also confesseth, that if the causes be ciuile and temporall, (and all other causes our reformers do tie to their Elderships) Bishops may be conuented before ciuile authoritie. Reioynder fol. 379. And it appeareth amongst all the learned Papists,Pet. Mart. de magi. sect. 23. that the cheese prerogatiue they haue had in this point,Hard. so. 229. hath proceeded from the meere fauour and good will of Christian Prin­ces,Def. of the Apol. 664. the rather to couer and keepe from the people such faults in the Clergie, as might breed their contempt. Hi­therto then, this wall riseth vp but easily, especially if I should adde in this place, the brethren of Scotland, their diuinitie for this matter, when they (not the Papists) gaue the king and state occasion to make it (by act of Parlement 1584) treason,Acts of par-lement. ca. 2. for any man to refuse to answer before the king, though it were concerning any matter which was ecclesiasticall.

Now concerning the second part of Cartvvrights wall,T. C. 2.2. p. 164. lin. 29. it is this: The Papists (sayth he) vvill haue the Prince to execute vvhatsoeuer they conclude, be it good or bad: vve say that if there be no lavvfull ministerie (as in time of ne­cessitie Dauid did eat the shevv bread, vvhich vvas other­vvise lavvfull for the priests only to eat of,) that then the Prince ought to set order: and that vvhen there is a lavvfull ministerie, if it shall agree of any vnlavvfull thing, the Prince ought to stay it. Surely you are very proper and right liberall sayers. Doth not your admonisher affirme, that if your platforme were once on foot, all men must stand vnto the determinations of your maiesticall church of­ficers, (that I may vse maister VVakes tearme) except it should happen in some matter of faith, they should make de­crees against the vvord of God? And (I pray you) if any such thing should happen, how could the king reforme it, or (as [Page 263] you say) stay it? He iudgeth their sayd orders to be erro­nious, and perceaueth the mischiefes that do depend vpon them: but how shall he redresse and preuent them? Shall he compell the authors of them to assemble themselues together againe, and to retract and condemne all such their decrees? They are of that humor (as experience hath told vs) that it is vnlikely they will be compelled to any thing. No, it were too great a disgrace for them to yeeld in any thing, that once they haue broached, were it good or bad, but especially when it is decreed in any of their wor­shipfull meetings. And besides, if the king should presse them too far in such a matter, he might find them (perad­uenture) but very ticklish subiects.

Cartvvright, to shuffle vp some blundering answer to these points,Lib. 3. p. 167. sayth: That if in such a case the church mini­sters should shevv themselues obstinate, and vvould not be aduised by the Prince, they should thereby prooue themselues to be an vnlavvfull ministerie, & that vpon such an occasion the Prince might remooue thē. Remouethē? How? By any ordinarie authoritie, which you do allow to the christian magistrats in causes ecclesiasticall? But you haue told vs before your mind herein. In effect, that it must be done by an extraordinarie authoritie, euen by the same right that Dauid did eat of the shew-bread, which (were it not in such a case of necessitie) none but the Priests might in any wise eat of. For otherwise (as it is before mentioned) where such a platforme is in execution, as they seeke for, the Prince hath not any thing to doe (by their doctrine, God knoweth) either with placing or displacing of church mi­nisters.

Or, if Cartvvright will say that I wrest his words to the worst construction, and that he meaneth plainely as [Page 264] purposing thereby to confirme (for his part) her maiesties ordinarie & supreme authoritie in those maner of causes: I am content he make the best of his owne words that he can, whether he meant ordinarie, or extraordinarie autho­ritie, so that when he hath done, he will stand vnto it. But let him say, what he is able, yet he hath a woolfe by the eares, and shall neuer be able so to shift his hands, but that it will follow, that both he, and all the pastors, doctors, and elders, that are combined with him, are by his words both obstinate and vnlawfull ministers, except he shall with­draw this part of his wall, as being to weake to make such a separation from the papists, as he pretendeth.

For, notwithstanding that the present gouernment of the church of England, is established and confirmed by a nati­onall synod, with the generall cōsent of the whole land, to be a most lawful & godly forme of gouernment, notwith­standing that her Maiestie doth so thinke of it, and hath shewed herselfe many waies (as by her acts of parlemēt, her proclamatiōs, her sundry speeches, yea by the punishing & imprisoning of some certaine persons) vtterly to dislike of their pretended discipline, as being, in her princely iudge­ment, a meere forgerie, & vaine conceit of busie & restlesse heads, cōtrary to the word of God, and ancient practise of all the godly churches in the world, for 1500 yeares: all these things I say, notwithstanding, yet they haue rayled, libelled, & raged against the said present gouernmēt. They haue, and do still, neglect, as well her maiesties setled iudg­ment, of the vnlawfulnesse of their decreed platforme, as also her lawes, her pleasure, and many commandements, that they should desist hereafter, from that their erronious deuise, and submit themselues quietly to the forme establi­shed. Nay, they are so far from yeelding, in this point, to [Page 265] any authoritie of her maiestie; whether ordinarie or ex­traordinarie, as that they haue attempted by very vnlaw­full and seditious means, to aduance their purposes against her highnesse will, and do plainly giue it out, that they wil not desist, they will not hold their peace, they will haue their desires, though they be driuen to vndertake such means for that end, as will make their hearts to ake, who are their cheese impugners.

Stand now to your words, maister Cartvvright, if you meant plainly, vz. If the ministerie shall agree of any vn­lavvfull thing, the prince ought to stay it: and then are not all the packe of you concluded, by your said answer, to be obstinat persons and a false ministerie? If you haue any re­fuge in the world, it is this; that whatsoeuer the said natio­nall councell, the learned mens opinions that do impugne you, the lawes of this realme, all the ancient churches, and her maiestie relying vpon them: whatsoeuer they altoge­ther do thinke & iudge to be lawfull: you care not, or you are sory for it, but all that notwithstanding, you are sure, for that you haue decreed amōgst your selues, vz. that you haue not therein erred, and therefore they must all beare with you, though you rest your selues vpon the truth of your own decrees, & giue no place either to councel, law, prince, fathers, learned men, or any other authoritie what­soeuer, that maketh against you. And will not H.N. and Barovv, will not al hereticks & schismaticks say as much? where is then the princes authoritie you spake of? For staying such kind of proceeding, what course shall he take? These ministers (as I sayd) conclude vpon their owne de­uises. The king considereth of them, and findeth them vnlawfull, but they denie it; what shall hee do? Your refuge, Cartvvright, is euerie Heretickes refuge. [Page 266] If her Maiestie, with all the reasons mentioned, cannot stay you and your sect, let neuer any king or ciuile magi­strat looke by any authoritie, which you do giue vnto them in causes ecclesiasticall, to stay the fancies of any such fellowes. But the substance of all their deuises is nothing, but pretences of things that are not. And agreeable there­vnto is this second part of Cartvvrights wall, (of the dif­ference betweene him and the Papists) who in effect (for ought I see) are as franke to Christian Princes, euen in this point, as either he or his fellowes.

Princes Conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317. extraordinarily (sayth Harding) haue laudably intermedled vvith Religion, as iudges and rulers of spiritu­all causes. Good Ibid. fo. 304. Christian Princes euer tooke into their hands the carefull charge or procuration of Churches, as per­taining to their dutie. Good Hard. ibid. Kings and Princes do maintain true religion, and by the aduise of their priests (vvhen any great defections happen) do pull dovvn the false. And where Cartvvright doth charge the Papists to constraine their Princes for the keeping of their decrees, be they good or bad: although it be true in deed that they do so, and that those of his owne stampe likewise vvhere they raigne, are nothing more fauourable vnto them, as farre as their might will reach: yet as he doth in this matter prefer him­selfe and his adherents before them, it is but a meere cauil. For the Papists holding this ground, that their Councels and Popes, in such their decrees and conclusions (as it plea­seth them to make) cannot erre: that being graunted, it followeth of necessitie, that euery Christian Prince ought to put them in execution, and to punish those that shall op­pose themselues against them. So that vvhatsoeuer they do impose vpon the Church, they affirme it is good: euen as Cartvvright doth his discipline, which he would in­trude [Page 267] vpon vs: both of them ioining in this point, that as wel Cartvvrights new ministery, as the popes priesthood, will be the iudges of their owne decrees, whether they be good or bad: and then what leaue they to the Christian magistrat more the one sort then the other?

Surely this wall riseth very slowly as yet, but peraduen­ture the third part will be higher thē the other two: when you haue viewed them, iudge. Our meaning is not (sayth Cartvvright) vtterly to seclude the magistrat out of our T.C. 2.2. p. 164. & 167. church-meetings, for often times, a simple man & (as the pro­uerbe sayth) the Gardiner hath spoken to good purpose, &c. He may be assistant and haue his voice in such assemblies. Out of question you deale very bountifully with your soueraign. But to helpe him in building this part of his wall, I will set downe, what is the vttermost that he yeeldeth to, herein; if hee haue not retracted the same, as afterward it shall be considered. The T.C. 2.2. p. 157. Prince may call a councell of the ministerie and T.C. ib. 161 appoint both the time and the houres for the same. The T.C. 2.2.162.167.161 ciuile magistrat is not vtterly to be excluded from such as­semblies as do meet for the deciding of church-causes and or­ders: he may be there assistant and haue his voice, but he may not be either moderator there, nor determiner, nor iudge. bid. 156. Neither may the orders or decrees there made, be sayd to haue bene done by the Princes authoritie. And therefore in times past the cannons of councels, vvere not called the Em­perors, but the Bishops decrees. bid. 161. Princes may be assistant in councels, and ought to defend the same assembled: if any be­haue themselues there tumultuously or othervvise disorderly, the Prince may punish him. The T.C. 2.2. 157. Prince ought to confirme the decrees of such councels: to T.C. 12.193. see the decrees executed: and T.C. 2.2. p. 156. to punish the contemners of them. Thus hereof Cart­vvright, and now come in the papists.

[Page 268] It Saunders. lib. 2. c. 3. vvas lavvfull in times past for emperors to call coun­cels, to Ibid. appoint both time and place for the same. And mai­ster Confut. A­pol. par. 6. 309. Harding confesseth, that princes may do so still by the aduise of the clergie. Princes Hard. fol. 217. fol. 314. and their embassadors, accor­ding to their estates, haue most honourable seats in all coun­cels, may sit there as assistants, giue their aduises, make ex­hortations to the Bishops, to be very circumspect and carefull, and in the end, may subscribe vvith them to the causes there decreed. But fol. 313.310.315. they may not sit there as iudges, moderators, or determiners, Hard. 317. and therfore in their subscriptions they vvrōt not as bishops did, definientes subscripsimus, but con­sentientes. Neither ard. 312 vvere the councels called Imperatoria, but Episcopalia. Princes He Mo­narch. lib. 2. cap. 3. may be assistant in councels. Nay (sayth Saunders) they may be presidents ouer Bishops in coun­cels, ad pacem & concordiam retinendam, vt nullum fieri tu­multum permittant: tumultuantem vero custodiae mancipent, and cause such assemblies to auoid all delaies. All Hard. conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317. Christi­an princes ought to confirme the decrees of generall coun­cels: to see Saun. lib. 2. cap. 3. the decrees executed, and to punish the contem­ners of them.

Compare these places with Cartvvrights words, and tell me what great difference ye find betweene them. But what if Cartvvright (as I sayd) haue retracted these points? then it must needs be confessed that the Papists do yeeld more to Christian princes in causes ecclesiastical, then the puritans.

[Page 269] IT appeareth in the latter end of the two and twentith chapter, how by a fine distinction, of raigning vnder Christ as he is onely God, and vnder Christ, as he is mediator: they first, would exclude all Christian princes from their lawfull authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall, ascribing no more vnto them, then as if they were heathens, except it be to execute their pleasures, and to maintaine them, which they say, is the dutie also of all the heathen rulers: and secondly how by the same distinctiō, they lift vp their own horns, as if it were so many popes, challenging euery one of them together with their elderships, to be Christs immediat vicars for church-causes, vpon earth. In the sub­stance of which doctrine although they do all agree, yet when they come to the particular grounds, whervpō they would gladly lay their foundations of it, there they are di­stracted, and do confound themselues. I meane not, to en­ter here any further into this matter, then as cōcerning the sayd distinction with the seuerall branches thereof.

Cartvvright bestoweth soure leaues,Lib. 2. a. p. 410. ad. p. 419. to prooue, that no ciuile magistrat may be called the head of the particular church, within his dominion. And his cheefest reasons are drawn, from the parts of the distinction mentioned. Now, when he laboureth so much vpon this word head, hee knoweth that we meane thereby nothing els, but a chiefe authoritie: and he wrangleth of purpose, that whereas his opinion is direct, that no ciuile magistrat (as he is a ciuile magistrat) hath any office in the Church, he might dazle the eies of his reader, as though he could bee content to maintaine the right of the crowne, and did only insist vp­on the word head.

But to muster them together about the said distinction, [Page 270] Cartvvright sayth that our Sauiour Christ, Lib 2 p. 411.417. as hee is the sonne of God only, or as he is onely the Creator and preser­uer of mankind, coequall vvith his father, he is the gouer­nour of kingdoms and common-vvealths, and not as hee is the sauiour and redeemer of mankind. But the humble mo­tioner doth tell vs from Scotland, another tale: peraduen­ture vpon the credit of the brethren there.Humble mo­tio. so. 1. Christ (sayth he) hath all povver and superioritie aboue all principalities, ei­ther in heauen or in earth: he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and the Prince of kings in the earth; he is Lord of all kingdoms and common-vvealths, to dispose and rule them at his pleasure: not simply as he is the second person in Trinitie, God aboue all; but as he is the sonne of God manifested in the flesh. Nay, he goeth further, and sayth: that Christ hath all this authoritie, not only as he is both God and man, but that he hath it euen as he is man.

Lib. 2. p. 411. Cartvvright sayth: that our sauiour Christ in the gouern­ment of kingdoms and common-vvealths, and in the superi­oritie vvhich he hath ouer kings & iudges, hath no superior. But if we shall beleeue the sayd motioner: he is as directly contrarie vnto him in this assertion, as he was in the for­mer.F. 1.2. For (sayth he) our sauiour Christ as he is King of kings, Lord of lords, and the ruler and disposer of all kingdoms of the earth: he hath receaued that authoritie of his father, and so hath it 1. Cor. 15.24. If it shall be maruailed, that the hum­ble motioner, peraduenture some swaine, in respect of Cartvvright, dare thus presume to incounter with such a Goliah, especially hauing an whole armie no doubt that will, and his vizgerent Trauers, that dooth already assist him: he may be easily satisfied, in that Beza on the o­ther side (a man of farre greater account in Scotland than Cartvvright is in England) hath promised, and [Page 271] pawned his iudgement, to backe the motioner in these points. For hee is wholy of the motioners opinion: Pater non nisi in persona filij manifestati in carne mun­dum regit. Annot. 10.5.6.22. God the Father (sayth he) doth not gouerne the vvorld, but onely in the person of his sonne manifested in the flesh. And agayne: he alloweth of the Fathers where they hold that Proprie humanae naturae respectu dicitur datum esse filio potestatem coeli ac terrae: vvhen it is sayd that povver is giuen to the sonne, of heauen and earth: it is spoken properly, in respect of his humane nature receaued. The world is gouerned only by Christ, as he is manifested in the flesh: therefore not onely (as Cartvvright sayth) as he is God. The gouernment of the world is committed to the sonne of God, as he is manife­sted in the flesh: therfore (contrary to Cartvvright) he hath therein a superior. Christ the sonne of God hath the go­uernment of heauen and earth assigned vnto him proper­ly in respect of his humane nature, which he hath recea­ued: and therefore not only as he is the sonne of God co­equall with the Father, as Cartvvright affirmeth.

So as, whatsoeuer either Cartvvright, Trauers, or any of their followers, shal enforce, against the authoritie of chri­stian princes, in respect vz. that they with all the heathen gouernors do hold their scepters immediatly vnder christ, as he is God only, and not as he is their mediator: it is all but as vntempered morter, nothing fit for the purpose, as other of their friends do iudge: and (as it seemeth by Beza in the place quoted) might peraduēture (if it were thorow­ly followed) touch them neerer then they are aware of, as men not fully persuaded of the most high and mighty pre­rogatiue of the person of Christ Iesus. But let that go, I am glad to heare that christian magistrats may haue somthing [Page 272] to do vnder Christ, as he is their mediator. And what if it may appeare, that holding their gouernment vnder him, as mediator, they may haue some authoritie also vnder him, as he is the head of the church? I know, that would come quite cam to Cartvvrights humor. Neuerthelesse it is rea­son, that men should be heard. The humble motioner af­firmeth: that the Lord Iesus hath the regiment and povver ouer all principalities, F. 1. either in heauen or earth, not simplie as hee is God, but as he is Christ, God and man, and so the head of the church. Let these places of scripture, Ephesians 1. vers. 20, 21, 22, 23. and Colossians 1. vers. 16, 17, 18, 19, 20. be effectually considered, (where there is speech of the great prerogatiue which Christ hath in the world, as he is head of the church) and they do wholy run that way. In so much as Caluin writing vpon one of those epistles Ephes. 1. ver. 23. sayth:Calu. in. ephes. 1. v. 23. Nihil impedit quo minus de vniuersali gubernatione accipias. There is no impediment, vvby you may not vnderstand it, of Christs vniuersall go­uernment.

But more fitly to this purpose Beza, where speaking of Christ as the head of the Church,Confess ca. 5. artic. 1. &. 23. de magistrat p. 556. and of such officers as he hath appointed vnder him: he accounteth the ciuile magi­strat for one, as before it hath bene noted. But Snecanus is resolute, and accounteth them aduersaries & Anabaptists, that shall denie it: affirming, that by rulers and gouernours, Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. (where the Apostle speaketh of the body of Christ) the ciuile magistrats are vnderstood,p. 557. as well as their Aldermen: that they are to be reckoned inter officia ecclesiae:p. 668. nay, inter dona ecclesiae, Ephesi. 4. though they be not there named: and, that, it is therefore great rashnesse to exclude the ciuile authoritie, out of the church, Nisihanc simul tollere velint, p. 557. Except they meane to abolish [Page 273] it altogether. Indeed, I like this exception well, and so I do also of his opinion. For me thinketh, that if kings and princes be ioint cōmissioners vnder Christ the head, with their pastors, doctors, and aldermen, assigned by the Apo­stle for the gouernment of the church, they might be well content, and reckon it no disparagement vnto the best of them, that the prince their soueraigne, should beare the chiefest and the greatest sway amongst them.

And all this maketh directly against Cartvvright, euen as though men of purpose should haue studied to haue dis­graced him: which surely needeth not. For if his own wri­tings were narrowly looked into, there is sufficient in thē, to discipher him in his colours.Lib. 2. p. 470. I meruaile what he mea­neth when he writeth, that a king was necessarie for the Israelits, to shadow out to them the kingdome of Christ. Would he leaue his scholers at libertie to reason, as the A­postle doth, whē they should see their time? Christ is now come in the flesh, & being our high priest, hath performed the worke of our saluation: therfore the priesthood of Aa­ron being but a shadow of Christs priesthood, ought now to cease. And euen so they, when they list: The kingdome of Christ, is now come vnto vs, & therefore the hauing of a king being but a shadow of Christs kingdome, ought now to cease. Surely this commeth neare to Snecanus cōiecture, vz. Nisihāc simul tollere velint. But to omit sur­mises, & many such thinges els, which I maruel at in him, you shall find him so violent in this cause, as rather then he will graunt, that Christian magistrats may bee subor­dinate heads, or cheefe gouernours in church affaires vnder Christ their sauiour, within their own dominions, he can be cōtent to reason, as if he were a notorious S^wink­feldian, and meant to abolish all the ministers of the word, [Page 274] as needlesse instruments vnder Christ, for the building, feeding, and comforting of his church. For thus he argu­eth:Li [...]. p. 413. that for as much as Christ is neuer seuered from his body, nor from any part of it, and is able, and dooth performe that vvherefore he is called head, vnto all his Church, therefore there is no need of any subordinate head ouer any particular Church, or (as he sayth) there can be none. As if a man should reason thus: Christ is our sauiour, our priest, our prophet, and our king: Christ is our sheapheard, our doctor, and our archbishop: Christ is neuer absent from his church, nor euer will be: and he is able to performe that, where­fore he is called, our sauiour, our priest, our prophet, our pastor, our doctor, our bishop, our archbishop, our arch­feeder: therefore we need no priests, pastors, doctors, bi­shops, or archbishops, neither ought there to be any such subordinate, or ministeriall meanes allowed of, or per­mitted for the sayd benefits, of building, teaching, and ga­thering of the church. The collections (in my opinion) are both alike.

Againe, by the same phrase of speech: that Christ, as me­diator, is called by him els-where, the head of euery particu­lar church, Lib. 2. p. 416. and in that respect euery particular church is tear­med his body. So Christ as he is the sonne of God only (to graunt him for a minute so much) being the head of euery particular kingdome: it may be said, that euery particular kingdome is his body. Now then, whereas he reasoneth thus, very grauely in his owne iudgement: If the church be the body of Christ and of the ciuile magistrat, Lib. 2. p. 412. it should haue tvvo heads, vvhich vvere monstrous. Why may not I in like sort make this inference? if the common-wealth be the body of Christ, and of the ciuile magistrat, it should haue two heads which were mōstrous: which collection [Page 275] being ridiculous (by his own phrase offspeech) his said ar­gumēt, is also ridiculous. For my part certainly I do thinke that the word heard, as it is yeelded to christiā princes, sig­nifying nothing els (as I sayd) but a cheefe ruler, I see no cause then, why it should be a more monstrous thing, for thē to be subordinat rulers of the church vnder christ, then to see princes thrust downe, and six or seuen base persons, a malster, a brewer, a baker, a mason, a smith, a butcher, a tin­ker, and such like aduanced, to that, so high an authoritie.

Well▪ as our prouerbe sayth: Be it as it bee may, and that is no banning. If Princes will bee thus dallyed withall, let them for me, and they shall bee the first that will repent it. But vvhat should they do, when they heare their authoritie, so substantially impugned, by so worthie persons, with such inuincible arguments, such de­monstrations, such collections, such concurrencie in their opinions, such concord, such notable agreement together, in their grounds, for that purpose? Indeed you will say so, when you shall see how, (after they haue foiled prin­ces in such sort as it hath bene declared) they intitle them­selues, and their wise and worshipfull Eldermen to their authoritie. You cannot imagine mens bodies, to be faster tied together, with the strongest rope that euer was made of sand, then their minds, and iudgements are fast lincked, and vnited in this matter. As now it shall partly appeare, af­ter I haue layd before you three or foure of their new quircks, very pertinent to this place: some of them haue bene alreadie touched, but you cannot heare a good thing too often.

They affirme (if I can vnderstand them) that euery wel ordered parish,Demonst. Mart. Thes. T.C. 1.2. p. 412.419. hauing an Eldership in it, is the perfect bo­die of Christ, & that Christ is properly to be called as well [Page 276] the head of euery such particular body or church, as he is of the Catholicke church.T.C. l. 2 p. 416. &c. Against whome by the way I might oppose a chiefe diuine of New stadium (a Consi­storian towne in the Palsgraues countrie) who sayth, that as the Church is called the body of Christ, Pezel. M. 7. par ob mel. p. 31. it properly sig­nifieth, Solos electos, the elect onely, and that all particu­lar churches, Ibid. p. 178.345. as the members of the Catholike church, do make but one body of Christ: vvhereof hee is to bee cal­led especially the head. But I will not stand vpon these points, onely I touch them that it might still appeare how well they agree together. Then to proceed. The same men likewise affirme that euery one of their menti­oned well ordered parishes, is a representation, and as it vvere, T.C. l. 1. p. 147 a liuely portraiture of the vvhole or Catholicke church: and that singularum ecclesiarum idem est ius, euery such parish Catholicke church, Disc. eccl. sacr. pa. 1. hath equall authoritie, no more one then another.

And now I draw nere to the pith of this matter. For as touching the gouernment of euery one of these particular bodies of Christ, or of euery one of these demie catholicke churches, they hold that (princes being iustly dispossessed) their pastors, doctors, and aldermen, are by right, Christs immediat and subordinat lieutenants, or vicars generall. But now, for as much as our sauiour Christ (say some of them) is a priest, a prophet, and a king, and all in respect that he is both God and man, our only mediator and re­deemer. Here beginneth a new skitmish, from which of these his dignities they must deriue their interest, whether their said vice-gerents are to challenge their soueraigntie, from Christ, as he is a priest, from Christ as hee is a pro­phet, or frō Christ, as he is a king. For as the great learned clearke, that made the booke of ecclesiastical and ciuile po­licie [Page 277] affirmeth,I.B. de polit. pa. 68. vvhosoeuer is to be called Christs vicar, hee must be so tearmed either in respect of all those his three of­fices, or of tvvo of them, or of one at the least.

It hath bene commonly held heretofore, that Christ ta­king vpon him the ministerie of the gospell, to preach and teach the same, did ordaine his Apostles and disciples, to ioine with him, in that part of his priestly office. In re­gard whereof, it hath also bene defended, against the pa­pists, that euery lawfull minister, is as much the vicar of Christ, or his substitute, to teach his people, as the bishop of Rome, and that they ought, all of them equally, when they preach the word, pray for the people, or administer the sacraments, to be receiued, heard and intertained, as Christs embassadors, Christs ministers, euen as though Christ himself in his own person, did presently here vpon earth execute these offices. Besides, it is vrged by the Coun­terpoizer, Countecp. pa. 12. & many other, that Christ hauing translated the Iewes Sanedrim into his church, he hath appointed vnto vs for the Ievves priests, our pastors, and for their teaching Leuits, our doctors, &c. Whereby it followeth, that if the priests of the old law were Christs vicars, as he was their priest: the pastors ought so to be in the time of the gospel. But the excellēt politian,I. B. he vseth the matter in such sort, as by no means the ministers of the word, may haue any te­nure of their offices, vnder christ as he is priest. Ne ipsi quidē pastores erunt Christi sacerdotis vicarij, quod tamen falso sibi persuasit papa diaboli vicarius. The pastors themselues shall not be Christ's vicars, as he is priest, vvhich office notvvith­standing, the pope the diuels vicar, tooke falsely vpon him.

The pastors (he saith) shall not be Christs vicars, as he is a priest. And thē ther is no remedie: They shal not. How shal they hold then, immediatly of him? as he is a prophet. That [Page 278] is it. They are his substitutes or vicars (saith hee) onely as he is a prophet. Ibid. pa. 74. Did any man euer say so before? Surely not to my remembrance.Fenner. Theol. pa. 96. Maister Fenner in his diuinitie, peru­sed by maister Cartvvright, and allowed of at Geneua, can find but two kinds of offices appertaining to Christ, vz. his priesthood, and his kingly office, and therfore he maketh prophesie a part of his priesthood. It is much what, also to the same purpose (and directly contrary to I. B.) that the diui­nitie grounds printed at Geneua, do affirme by the mouth of one Abraham Henric, Thes. Geneu. pa. 219. where they say: Pastorū ministeriū vt olim sacerdotum, &c. The dutie of pastors, as in times past of the priests, consisteth in three things; teaching, admini­string of the sacraments, & publicke praier. So as either I.B. must be content that ministers may be Christs vicars, as he is a priest, or else I see not how he will bestow them. You will say peraduēture, that they may be Christs vice-gerēts, as he is a king; but that (as I sayd) he will not indure. If a­ny might be Christs vicars (sayth he) as he is a king, I.B. deposit. pa. 70. the A­postles, Prophets, Euangelists, Ministers and Doctors, might be his vicars. At ne hi quidem, quia rex est dicendi sunt vi­carij. But they neither, are to be called Christs vicars, as he is a king. Well, some place they must haue, there is no re­medie. I dare say, you would smile, if it should so fall out, that all our consistorian ministers, will needs bee Christs substitutes, in that he is a king. Surely, I must tell you, it proueth so.

For as touching I. B. they reckon him (I perceaue) but a simple politian. Christs kingdome, it hath bene truly vr­ged, is not of this world: & it is plea good enough against our bishops, but it holdeth not, to impaire the estimation of our petit consistorian kings. A distinction will helpe thē at a pinch. Christs kingdome is not of this world, but [Page 279] it ought to be in this world. Do you not here desire to know what this kingdome is? That I may not keepe you long in suspence, it is the Geneuian Eldership, and euen the very same kingdome (saith our counterpoizer) vvhere of Christ spake many times after his resurrection, Counterp. pa. 10. by the space of sortie daies, as the Iesuits themseluss are compelled to con­fesse. See the seducer. Who cōpelled the Iesuits to say so? would not a man haue thought, that this place had bene vrged by some protestants against the papists, for the ouer­throw of some especiall points of poperie, wher vpon after much paines the Iesuits bad bene driuen in spight of their heads, to admit of the interpretatiō mētioned. But it is clean contrary: the Iesuits do abuse this place of purpose, in the behalfe of the Antichristian & Romish form of church re­gimēt, & so doth the Counterpoizer, following the Iesuits therin, for the setting forth of their Geneuian papacy, or Re­galitie.

I could adde here a number of strange sayings (where­of you shall here anon in some other chapters following) concerning this new presbiteriall kingdome. But now it is more pertinent, to make the point I haue in hand, more apparant vnto you.T.C. lib. 2. pa. 440. Christ as a king, prescribed the forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment, saith Cartvvright, not as a priest, nor as a prophet, but as a king. With Cartvvright his scholler Dudlie Fenner, Fenner. The. lib. 4. p. 110. doth agree in this point, & setteth downe the first part of his kingly administration to be about the building and continuance of the church by the officers ap­pointed, Bez. annot. Ioh. 18. v. 36. Ep. 83. Eph. 4.11.12.13. Maister Beza also he runneth the same course: how Christ being a king, the head of the church, doth administer his kingdome. Per legitime voca­tos pastores, G. Sonnij. op. Tom. 1. p. 399. &c. by pastors lavvfully called. And Sonnius in like manner affirmeth, that Christ doth execute his kingly of­fice [Page 280] in the collectiō of the church, by the ministerie of the word and sacraments, and by the internall gouernment of his spirit, and the external of the ministerie. Here is indeed, very roiall preferment: for al the ministers of the word. But I meruaile how the ruling elders do hold their authoritie? They are neither priests nor prophets, of likelihood then, they must be little kings. Wel then, Christ is the king, the presbiterie is his kingdome, & his immediat vice-gerents they are all of them. What? Surely, by the due course of degrees (which are acknowledged) the pastors must be all of thē (as it were) emperors, the doctors kings, the elders dukes, and the deacons lords of the treasurie, &c. And for the authoritie of euery such kingdom, it must needs fal out to be very soueraign. For if euery presbiterie (as it is before noted) be properly to be called the body of Christ, and the true portraiture of the catholick church, & that euery one of thē, is of equall authoritie: now that the officers in them are Christs immediat vice-gerēts within their own king­doms, who shall controll any of their doings, or whither should a man appeale, if he found himselfe iniuried.

De presb. p. 124I remember maister Bezas saying, That euery eldership is the tribunall seat of Christ. Which is all one almost, with the assertion of some Romish parasits, that the pope and Christ, haue but one consistorie. They tell vs of appellati­ons from an eldership, to a classis, from a classis, to a prouin­ciall synod, from a prouincial synod, to a nationall, & from a nationall, vnto a generall councell. But as the papists do make euery appellation from the pope, to be as absurd, and all one, as if the appeale were made from Christ, so must it necessarily follow, to be as vntollerable to appeale from a­ny consistorie, it being (as it hath bene affirmed) the tribu­nall seat of Christ, and the officers in it, Christs immediat [Page 281] gouernors. And because it is pretended, that the regiment they speake of, is in the best perfection at Geneua, I would gladly know whither a man might appeale (vpon occasi­on) from that eldership there. The churches of Bern, or Zu­ricke, haue no more to do with the church of Geneua (they will say) then Geneua hath to do with them, or an eldership in Scotland, with another of the low countries. But I haue taried too long vpon this matter, in collecting vpon their contrarie assertions. Therefore to conclude, I would wish all christian and godly magistrats, that haue as yet in their hands, the lawfull authoritie in church-causes, which be­longeth vnto them by the word of God, to keepe it stil, vn­till at the least these disciplinarie deuisers, be fully resolued, whether we must account thē priest, prophets, or kings: priests, if they be Christs substitutes, as he is a priest: pro­phets, if they be Christs substitutes, as he is a prophet: and kings by the same proprietie of speech: if they be Christs immediat substitutes, as he is a king. And so I will go to the next chapter, wherby you shall perceaue more particu­larly, that (call them as ye list) they challenge authoritie, like princes, or rather popes, to deale in many matters.

YOu haue heard before,Cap. 15.16.17. of certaine of the seuerall and ioint offices of their counter­feit church-aldermen: and likewise in the chapter, how they challenge to themselues, in their elderships, the whole gouernment [Page 282] in all church-causes. Now for that it might bee doubted how farre these words, Church causes should extend: they haue taken great paines to cleare their meaning in that behalfe, and so haue vsed the matter (to my vnderstanding) as that they haue left out no one cause, of what nature soeuer, but that either directly, or indirectly, by hooke or crooke, they haue brought it vnder their lee, and with­within their compasse. Read their sayings, and then iudge as you see cause.

All crimes (saith Knox) that by the lavv of God deserue death, The order of excom. in Scotlād. Ae. 2 deserue also excommunication: as vvilfull murderers, adulterers, sorcerers, vvitches, coniurers, charmers, giuers of drinke to destroy children, open blasphemers, as denyers of the truth, raylors against the Sacraments, &c. And hovv will they proceed in the execution of this censure, vp­on such manner of sinnes: the same order doth specifie. A su­perintendent must direct his letters of summons to the parish church, where the offender dvvelleth: or if the offender haue no certaine dvvelling place, then to the chiefe tovvne, and best reformed church in that diocesse, vvhere the crime was committed, appointing to the offender, a certain day and place vvhen & vvher he shal appeare before the superinten­dent & his assessors, to heare that crime tried, as touching the truth of it, and to ansvver for himselfe, vvhy the sentence of excommunication should not be pronounced against him.

Here are then new summons, and nevv citations. Here is authoritie challēged, not only to appoint such offices, and to vse such iurisdiction: but (that which seemeth strāge to me indeed) to trie a murderer, and such like offendors, as (touching the very facts) whether they committed them, or not. Do they impanall a iurie thinke you, as we do in England, for triall of the fact? or are the elders of the con­sistorie [Page 283] iudges of the facts, as they be of law? That is not expressed. But what if the partie vpon his summons ap­peare not?Ibid. That is no great matter. Inquisition being taken of the crime, he is the next Sunday to be excōmunicated: not for his contempt in not appearing, but for the very fact it selfe, as in their form of excommunication in such cases, it is expressed. For the inquisition of the crime taken in his wilfull absence, shall be a conuiction for his soule: let his body escape the temporall magistrats hands as it may.

This is round dealing. A man is condemned of murder, and neuer heard: & for sitting, but of one citation in a mat­ter of life and death, out goeth their excōmunication? Call they this, proceeding after the new discipline? But to fol­low this case to the end. It happeneth, that this murderer is aftervvard pardoned by the magistrat, but yet though hee professe repentance, he may not be receaued till after fortie daies of triall, and vntill hee hath satisfied the kinred and friends of the man that vvas slaine. You may say, what if they will not be satisfied? That I warrant you is prouided for.Ibid. Then ought the church to put moderation to the vn­reasonable, in case the ciuile magistrat hath not so done be­fore. It is very well, what the king will not, they may. Be­sides, when it is sayd, that the church ought to put such a moderation: you must vnderstand that except the parties do agree to be so put, out flieth againe (as I suppose) their foresaid slipperie censure.

Againe,Ibid. A. 6.7. for all other offences that fall not vnder the ciuile svvord, and yet are slanderous and offensiue to the church, as fornication, drunkennesse vsed, svvearing, curssed speaking, chiding, fighting, bravvling, and common contempt of the order of the church, breaking of the sabboth, vvāton & vain vvords, vncomly gestures, negligēce in hearing of preaching, [Page 284] or obtaining from the Lords table, vvhen it is publikely mi­nistred, suspicion of auarice or of pride, superfluitie or riotous­nesse in cheare or raiment, &c. All these likewise do come by certaine degrees, within the compasse of their censures: all according to the word of God, you must suppose, or els you do them wrong. Vnto these may be also further ad­ded,Historie of the church of Scotland. ministers apparell, vvomens lasciuious, dissolute, or too sumptuous attire, either publikely or priuatly, dauncing, all games that bring losse, stage-plaies of all sorts, haunting of tauerns, or tipling houses, all inordinat liuers, and all such like matters, according to the discretion of the eldership, cuire­linquenda sunt, vvhervnto they are to be left. From which discretion, it proceeded (as I take it) that for some disorders committed in Edenburgh, The Hist. of the church of Scotland. pag. 527. about a Robin-hood, which the prouost and bailifs would haue staied, the vvhole multi­tude vvere holden excommunicate. But yet I haue not done with these causes. They grow vpon me, more and more. And it is no reason, that our owne brotherhood of Eng­land should be pretermitted. They (vz. the elderships) shall suffer no levvd customs (saith the admonitioner) to remaine in their parishes, Admō. 2. pa. 46. either games, or othervvise. You know their meaning. Maipoles, Ales, maigames, moricedances, all must downe. How doth Robin-hood stick in their sto­macks? Besides, all that haue liued vvith offence to the con­gregation, Adm. 2. p. 46. although they haue suffered the punishment of the lavv for it: yet because they offended therby both God & the church, they are vvithin the limits of the elderships, & to be censured by them. The demōstrator is also very bountiful. The office of the church gouernors (saith he) is to decide con­trouersies in doctrine and maners, Cap. 15. so far as pertaineth to con­science, and the church censures. That is, if any shall refuse their said decision, they will not (indeed) whip him or [Page 285] hang him, (those are ciuile punishments.) But so farre as the church-censures will reach, haue at him. Will he run to trouble his neighbour, either to the Chancerie, to the Kings-bench, or cōmon pleas, & may haue both cōscience and iustice of his eldership at home? Such a fellovv shal pay for it. It is wisely therfore considered of the humble motio­ner, where he telleth the lords of her maiesties priuie coū ­saile,pa. 75. that the church is to censure such a partie, vvho is appa­rantly troublesome and contentious, and vvithout reasonable cause, and vpon meere vvill and stomacke doth vex & molest his brother, to trouble the countrie. Apparātly troublesome, that is, apparantly to their conceits: without reasonable cause, vz. to be approued by thē. And how can they know how reasonable the cause is, except they examine both the fact, and be skilfull also, what the law of the land is in such a case? Must he bring his learned councel to their Alder­mens barre, to proue his cause reasonable? but what should I moue such a trifling question? Well, pardon me for it, and to make you an amends, you shall heare Cartvvrights opinion of these matters.T.C. l. 2. p. 68 It is this, vz. that euery fault, that tendeth either to the hurt of a mans neighbor, or to the hinde­rance of the glory of God, is to be examined and dealt in by the orders of the church. This brings before their consistorie of elders, all matters of right, all pleas reall and personall, and all pleas of the crowne, as I imagine.

Snecanus also saith,De discip. eccles. p. 460. Quoduis peccatum, &c. Euery sinne is here to be vnderstood both against our neigbor & against God howsoeuer it be cōmitted by force or by fraud, by vvords or by deeds, purposely or ignorantly, manifestly or secretly. But yet the Demonstrator goeth further. Hitherto we haue heard nothing to purpose, but only of sinnes committed. But he will not abate you an inch of all the sins, which the schole­men [Page 286] do call sinnes of omission. Cap. 18. VVhatsoeuer is enioined (saith he) as a dutie to be done by euery christian, if he leaue it vn­done, he is to be compelled by the gouernors of the church to do it. It is also of a maruellous reach, that the admonitioner speaketh of, when he affirmeth, that by this their discipline euery man may be kept vvithin the limits of his vocatiō. Per­aduenture it wil be a harder matter then they looke for, to be able to discerne of the limits of euery mans calling. But if they will needs take so much vpon them, because they haue once said it; then if any man, be he prince or subiect, exceed the limits of his calling, where their elderships are established: it tendeth surely to their condemnation, that may reforme him, and doe it not.

But it may be, that some wil say, we haue heard of Knox, of Danaeus, of the Demōstrator, of the admonitioners of Sne­canus, of Cartvvright, and we know not whom: but what sayth Beza of this matter? we would be glad to heare him. I cannot blame you, for you shall be sure that he wil come in with one trick or other beyond his fellowes. You haue heard al the sinnes (almost) that are reckoned vp already, as falling within the bounds of the elderships iurisdiction. But if we shall beleeue Beza, and speake indeed properly, as he would haue vs: no sinnes (as they are sinnes) do belong to the elderships to be dealt in,De excom. p. 46.49. but as they are scandala, that is, as they offend the godly consciences of Gods children. For example: I heare a man blaspheme God, or breake a­ny other cōmandement of the first table; or I heare or see him cōmit some sinne against the second table, vz against his neighbor, as against my self by doing me some iniurie, either in word or deed, either in my goods, or in my name, now in this, there are offred me 2 kinds of iniuries, the first & the cheefest is the greefe of conscience, that I cōceiue in [Page 287] respect, that such a mā hath brokē Gods law, & therby not only woūded my hart, but giuen an ill exāple, which may peraduenture corrupt others. The second iniurie is, by his hurting me in my goods or fame. Now forsooth in this se­cond respect, I may go to the ciuile magistrat, but may not come to the eldership, by any degrees, but only in the first respect, vz. because my neighbor in hurting of me hath vi­olated the law of god, & so woūded my cōscience. Neither must I complaine to the eldership, with any mind either to haue him punished, or to haue my iniuries recōpensed, but only to bring him to repētance, & to seeke the good of his soule. By this deuise you may perceaue that although he seeme in words to dissent frō the rest that haue writtē more bluntly, yet in effect he agreeth with thē, or rather hath in­creased their pretēded iurisdiction. For by this means, they may not only take vpon thē to enter into euery action, but they would bind euery particular man, whosoeuer, to be­come an informer to their court. Besides, wheras he sayth, that in the said second respect, we may go to the ciuile ma­gistrat, it is but a mist that he casteth before mens eies. For be it in a matter of words, that I pretēd my selfe to be gree­ued, and so complaine to their eldership: Beza & al the rest do hold, that the partie cannot passe their fingers, vntill he haue submitted and reconciled himselfe vnto me. And in such a matter who will desire more? For if he looke for damages in monie, he will be held cruell. And then what is left for the ciuile magistrat? Againe, my neighbour pre­tending that I haue done him iniurie, either in his lands, goods, or fame, chargeth me with the particulars, which being indeed false, he saith are true, wherupon my consci­ence being wounded, that he should sin so horribly against God, first by lying, & then by iustifying his lie: I cōplaine [Page 288] to the consistorie. The matter is heard, I am cleared. And except he submit himselfe both to aske God and mee for­giuenesse, the censures of the church proceed against him: and so that way also he is debarred from the benefite of temporall law, in so much as he can haue no colour to be­gin sute againe, for that, wherein hee hath acknowledged me to haue bene by him wrongfully charged. What is here then left for the ciuile state to deale in? Furthermore in a matter of iniurie done vnto me in my lands or goods: I pretend to that court, that such a man hath wounded my conscience, in breaking Gods commandemēt, by such his iniurie offered vnto me:Beza. de ex­com. pa. 52. well, it may be the partie will de­nie it, and then my proofes must be produced. If I iustifie my complaint, the offender must likewise in this case submit himselfe vnto me, and acknowledge the iniurie. If hee will not so do, the censures proceed, and so he is debarred (as it is sayd before): if hee do, then on the other side, I must of necessitie, forgiue him the offence which gree­ued my conscience, or else I also do come within their compasse. Well, I do therefore forgiue him: and shall I neuerthelesse prosecute him in forme of law, for the iniurie done to me? Hereunto maister Beza sayth thus:De excom. p. 57. Vix potest condonâsse iniuriam dici, qui de priuata in­iuria fratrem non contentus primùm arguisse, deinde adhibi­tis testibus admonuisse, ad magistratus vs (que) tribunal illum reluctantē persequitur. He cā scarsely be sayd to haue forgiuen an iniurie, vvho not contenting himselfe to haue first repro­ued his brother for his priuat iniurie, and to haue admo­nished him before vvitnesses, doth notwithstanding dravv him (against his vvill) to the magistrats seat of iustice.

But be it as he confesseth afterward, that in such a case a man may go to the law, to omit that hee shall thereby in­curre [Page 289] the high displeasure of these Rabbies, (which he shall be sure to haue sticking vpon him vntill they can waite him as good a turne) yet I say againe, vvhat is left to the magistrat? The iniurie is confessed afore. There shall need no triall of the fact, where so many witnesses may be vsed, to prooue his confession afore, if now he should denie it. All that the magistrat hath to do, is to set down what recompense I shall haue for my sayd iniurie, and to tax my charges. If you say nay, hee will heare the cause againe. Indeed I confesse he had need to do so. But so both I and the partie should be doubly charged and trou­bled. Besides, that course would turne to the vtter discre­dit of the presbyteries, that their dealings, fitting in the seat of Christ, should come to be scanned by those, that are but humane ordinations. For so some of them by colour of the Apostles words do debase magistracie. And therefore peraduenture they will thinke it meet, that vpon certificat from them, the magistrats should so prōceed to adiudge me a recompense, and to rate mine expenses without any fur­ther adoo. Some such thing it is, (though not in this very case) which the ministers of the low countries haue desi­red. Thus a very graue man borne amongst them, repor­teth of this matter.A. S. Ministri nullam habent coërcendi pote­statem, nec habere volunt. Tantùm cupiunt, vt magistratus puniant eos, qui ipsorum mandatis parere detrectarent. Quod nunquam sunt facturi, nisi prius de tota causa legiti­me recognouerint, actoribus aut accusatoribus ministris con­sistorij. Quod seniores & ministri alienū à suo ministerio esse similiter iudicant. In haec absurd a inciderunt, propter reiectam episcoporum authoritatē, &c. The ministers there haue no po­vver to correct any man, neither vvill they haue any. Only they desire of the magistrats to punish such, as should refuse [Page 290] to obey their cōmandements, vvhervnto the magistrats vvil neuer yeeld, except they may take notice of the vvhole cause againe by ordinarie course of lavv, the ministers of the con­sistories making thēselues either plaintifs or accusers. VVhich the elders and ministers do iudge, not to be agreeable to their ministerie. And they are fallen into these absurdities (he had also before named some other) through their reiecting of the authoritie of bishops. You see their desire in this case, and it may (in mine opinion) bee stretched to the former. And then (as I haue shewed) through scandales, offences, consciences, and I know not what pretences, challenges, and counterfait prerogatiues, the iurisdiction of their el­derships, will be so large, as the ciuile magistrats, iudges, and lawyers, shall not need to be greatly troubled.

These things, with all the premisses of this chapter con­sidered, I dare say, you long to know by what authoritie they challenge to deale in all these so many, and so infinite causes. And to satisfie your longing, the learned discourser shall first speake his mind:pa. 87. Our sauiour Christ (sayth he) in the vvord (church) alludeth to the Ievves Sanedrim, vvhich had the hearing and determining of all difficult matters a­mongst them: the like vvhereof, he vvilled to be established in his church, for administration of gouernment. What, you will say, but weightie matters? How come they now, to al matters: euen to Robin-hood, maigames, and may poles? Ye say truly, but Cartvvright will supply this defect. For indeed this discourser shot many bowes too short. This vvas the policie and discipline of the Ievves, T.C. l. 1. p. 183. and of the si­nagogue (saith he) from vvhence our sauiour tooke this and translated it vnto this church: that vvhen any man had done any thing that they held for a fault, that then the same vvas punished and censured by the elders of the church. [Page 291] And M. Beza. Praef. ad lib. de excom. Quod ius fuit Synagogae sub lege, cur non va­leat in ecclesia sub euangelio, authore Christo, Math. 18.17. non video: I see not why the same authoritie, that the Syna­gogue had vnder the lawe, shoulde not continue now in the Church vnder the Gospell, according to Christs institution in the chapter mentioned.

Indeede if Christ haue ordained any such matter, it is good reason it should bee so. But because they will needs bring vs to the Iewes: let vs see what prettie tales, they will tell vs of those times.

They say, (and it is true) that the Priests were the Law­yers of the land. Polit. pag. 129. Beza de excom. pag. 104. And would they be so now? If the same pollicie continue, why should they not? They tell vs further, that in ciuill causes, when there did arise anie doubt in law amongst the Iudges,Beza de excom. pag. 104. the decision thereof did belong to the Priests iurisdiction. If that also were a good pollicie, and that it be continued by Christ: then I see no reason, why it should not againe be now established in all places. They say, that the 17. of Deuteronomie, from the beginning of the eight verse, vnto the ende of the thirteenth, doth intreat of the ecclesiasticall Senate: where it is said:T.C. l. 2. p. 17. that iudgements betweene bloud and bloud, between plea and plea, Beza de excom. pag. 104. 105. &c. did belong to the priestes, and that it was death for any man not to rest in his determination. If this pollicie be in like manner continued: who then in the common-wealth, but the ecclesiasticall Elderships? Matters of bloud, and of all pleas? Who would not take those points, to be more ciuil causes? It is true. But they tell vs, that when the priests dealt in any of those causes, they dealt not in them ciuilly, [...]e [...]a de excom. pag. 106. but ecclesiastically. It will trouble a man to find out their sleights. But one exam­ple to this purpose you shall haue.

[Page 292]When such a doubt did rise (saith Beza) Non de facto;Beza de excom. pag. 104. Not of the facte, (for that was meere ciuill) but Deiure; what the law was in such a case: then the Ecclesiasticall El­dership determined thereof: and that doone, the ciuill Iudge gaue sentence of the facte accordingly. As though there should be two Courts in Westminster hall: one for mat­ters of fact in ciuill and criminall causes, consisting of temporall Iudges: and another (for matters of Consci­ence, for all sortes of offences, and for matters of lawe) consisting of ecclesiasticall persons, some Pastors and Do­ctors, assisted in solemn maner with their church Alder­men. Suppose then I pray you, that you are by chaunce in Westminster hall: such a difficult matter in lawe (as is pretended) commeth before the Iudges of some fact, whereupon downe they come from their seats, and go to the Elders. May it please your Maisterships, there is such a cause before vs, which seemeth to be a foule mat­ter, if it fall out as the bill or declaration is laid: what is the law in this point▪ The Elders consult together, & resolue them. The Iudges giue them a legge, returne to their places, the cause falleth out according to the com­plaint, and so they pronounce the sentence, as the Al­dermen taught them. Suppose (I say) all these things, & then you perceiue what Bezaes distinction meaneth, & with what good discretion, both hee and his followers, will needs make two Courts of that, which was but one. It is a very great maruel, that any wise men should insist vpon these so apparant and childish fooleries. In all the Courtes (I thinke) in the world, since there haue beene anie: the same that were Iudges of the lawe, were Iud­ges likewise to trie the fact: except it be in England. And yet heere also euen in the triall of factes by twelue men, [Page 293] we haue not two Courts for one matter: but all the e­uidence, witnesses, and whatsoeuer else, that doth ap­pertaine for the finding out of the fact, are brought be­fore the Iudges of the law. They sift and examine eue­rie point and circumstance, that so the Iurie may bee fully informed: and they are indeede the chiefe dire­ctors (as it is meete) in the whole matter. And as it is, and hath beene in all the worlde: so it was in all the Courtes appointed, either by Moses, or by King Ieho­sophat in Iewrie.

It is true, that all difficulties that did rise amongst the Iudges of inferior Courts in the country, whether they were of law, or facts: and likewise, all appellations from lower Courts: did belong to the high Court at Ierusalem, to bee heard and determined. But doth that proue one Court to bee two▪ Nay, it is most apparant, that if they will needs fetch their Elderships from the Iewes Synedria: they may challenge to themselues as­well the ciuill gouernement of the common-wealth, as the ecclesiasticall of the church. For so was the forme of gouernmēt then, according to the testimonies of scrip­ture, of all the Iewes, the Rabbines, the Talmudists, Iosephus, & others. And I greatly doe suspect it, that in time they will begin to claime it: I find them so wauering and vn­certaine in this matter. As yet; fi [...], they cannot abide to heare of it. But obserue them how they stagger. Beza in his booke against Erastus, whereunto hee himselfe, and seuenteene other Ministers of Geneua subscribed, and which was the booke indeed, that Erastus did confute: both he & they all of them, were in doubt of this point: An verò ciuilem aliquam cōērtionem habuerit ex iure, ecclesi­asticum illuà apud Iudaeos syned [...]ion, definire vix possumus: [Page 294] habuisse tamen, posterioribus saltem temporibus, negare nec si velimus, possumus, &c. We can scarcely define, whether the ec­clesiasticall Eldership amongst the Iewes, had any authoritie of right to vse ciuill punishments: that it had (at the least in the later times, if we would denie it, we cannot.

It is very well said. And then I trust it will be confes­sed; that, as long as that authoritie continued, hee had beene a fond man, that should but once haue dreamed of the former distinction of making one Court two: vz. the one of fact, and the other of law: and of dealing in ciuill causes ecclesiastically, or I know not how. Yea (saith Beza) but though they had such authoritie, probabile est, it is probable, that it was procured, ambitione maximorum pon­tificum, by the ambition of the high priests. How like you this▪ When he is so pressed both by scriptures, and with other authoritie, that hee cannot chuse but confesse the point in question: see how substantially he would seem to auoide it, with his Theologicall demonstration, Pro­babile est. But that I doe the man no iniurie, hee hath an other shift of descant to helpe himselfe herein. Though they had any such authoritie, exiure, by the law (saith he) yet, Hoc nihil ad nos, It doth not concerne vs. Why▪ if the same pollicie that the Iewes had, bee continued by Christ in his Church: how commeth it to passe, that this doth nothing concerne vs▪ It is abrogated. Belike; euen as much, and as little of the pollicie must continue, as is in force at Geneua. But who did abrogate it▪ Christ. Where? When hee said, Reges gentium dominantur eis, vos autem non sic: The kinges of the nations beare rule ouer them, but it shall not be so with you.

They seeme to bee much beholden to this peece of scripture: it serueth them vnto so many purposes. But [Page 295] if they presume in this sort vpon the continuall fauour of it: certainly it will leaue them, when they least sus­pect it. If the Iewes Eldership, had to deale in ciuill causes, & that Christ had pu [...]posed to haue continued that form of gouernment in his Church, in all pointes sauing in that: he would haue said thus: The priests of the Iewes did beare rule ouer them, and had to deale in ciuill cau­ses, but it shall not be so with you. It is to bee wondred ar; that Beza should content himselfe, with such vnlike­ly, & so very improbable conceites. But it seemeth, that vpon some better aduisement with himself, and his fel­lowe subscribers: they grewe all of them ashamed of these shiftes.Beza de excom. pag. 106. And therefore in his booke of excommu­nication (which hee lately published) hee is become in some sort another man. Now both he, & his said felow­Ministers, are out of doubt, Ex clarissimis testimoniis, By most clear testimonies;Pag. 109. that the authority which the priests had in ciuill causes, was gotten by bribes; Ex licentia & iu­risdictionis perturbatione; through the libertie and confusion of those two distinctiurisdictions: which confusion, Christus nunquam approbanit; Christ neuer approued.

Ah, very well: though they haue turned ouer an o­ther lease; and for Probabile est, do bragge of most cleare testimonies: yet, concerning Christs wordes, they are gone backward. For his commandement, Vos autem non sic: is now turned, as you see, into Nunquam approbauit: which carrieth with it no other force, than is ascribed to a negatiue collection. But for all their most cleare te­stimonies, he must haue better eyes than mine, that can discerne any thing by them, sauing their inconstancie: and that there is cause, to suspect therby (as I said,) that when their credites are increased, they will not greatly [Page 296] sticke to breake the bounds of their said distinctions, & deale as well with matters of fact, as of law. For els, be­sides all the premisses, what meaneth this new ground of Diuinitie, published of late in print to the worlde, from Geneua? Ciuiles quo (que) lites, antequam Christiani essent magistratus (vt verisimile est) ex Apostolica doctrina, Thes. 83. amicè & citra vllum ferè strepitum componebantur. The ciuill con­tentions, before there were any Christian magistrates, were compounded, as it is likely, according to the Apostles doctrine, by the Elderships, friendly, and without any suites of law.

So as now, if this question were once determined: whether, that may bee lawful, when there is a Christian magistrate, that is lawfull to bee doone, when there is none: there should (as you see) bee no more suites in law for ciuill causes in the lande: their Elderships haue intituled themselues vnto them, and ingrossed them all by right, into their handes. You will say; it is true, that they haue done so indeede, if that question were resol­ued: but that point standeth vppon an if. Nay, assure yourselues, it is past peraduenture: they would take it in great scorne, that such a matter should rest vndeci­ded. Where it is held by the Churches of Heluetia, that such Elderships (as they of Geneua talke of) are needlesse, where there is a Christian magistrate: and thereupon the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury, for disputations sake reasoning, that if there were any such Elders then: yet it doth not followe, they should bee receiued now: Cartwright and his schollers are peremptorie, T.C. li. 1. p. 175. that the offices of those Elderships, are the rather to bee conti­nued vnder a Christian magistrate. And the learned Discourser sayth as confidently in the like case: that the same authoritie, Pag. 118. 119. which the Church had, before there was a [Page 297] Christian Magistrate, doth still continue when there is one, or else (as he addeth) we would be glad to learne how this au­thoritie was translated from the Church, (in which it was once lawfully vsed) vnto the ciuill Magistrate. Agreeable to both which resolutions is that saying of Trauerse: That Heathen Princes being become Christians, Def. of eccles. Dis. p. 148. 174. doe receiue no further increase of their authoritie, than they had before, while they were in paganisme.

It is well: By these rules then, all is theirs. They are Kings & Princes: & the very immediate vicegerentes of Iesus Christ vppon earth. And good reason they should then haue both the swords: nay, twenty swords if there were so many. And besides, seeing they haue to deale in all causes, they must haue all lawes in the closets of their brestes: at the least authoritate; let scien­tia come by Cartwrights deuise, vpon the suddaine into them how it may: at leysure.

But hereof sufficiently. Howsoeuer they crie our against our Bishoppes for intermedling with mo mat­ters, than they are able to discharge: yet you see into what an infinite sea of affaires, they would thrust their Elderships: allowing generally that in themselues, which formerly they haue condemned in others. As by the next Chapter it will appeare more plainely vn­to you.

THere is nothing better knowne, than with what contempt and bitternesse diuers amongst vs haue written a­gainst the authoritie of Bishoppes, es­pecially Archbishops:Archbish. and yet I per­ceiue, that if they might attaine to such an authoritie, it would bee well enough accep­ted. For thus their Maister Beza writeth.Conf. cap. 5. Artic. 21. What was or­dayned in times past, concerning the appointing of prouin­ciall Synodes by the Metropolitane, appeareth manifestly by the olde Canons. Neither are we the men, who if the ruines of Churches were repayred, doo thinke eyther that order, or some other like vnto it, to be reiected. So as these two things bee obserued: That a tyrannie be not brought againe in­to the Church, as though the holy Ghost were tyed to some certaine seate or person: and that all thinges should be doone to edification, &c. Indeede, hee is already the Primate, Archbishop, or Metropolitane, in effect, of all the pro­uince of Geneua: or at the least, hee easily foresaw, that if anie such order should bee restored againe amongst them, hee was the onely man for that great prefer­ment.

When this worde [...] in the sixt Canon of the Councell of Nice, is brought and vrged, to proue the authoritie, right, and iurisdiction of the Bishop of A­lexandria, ouer the Churches, in diuers countries there mentioned: then it must signifie nothing, in that place: [Page 299] (if wee shall beleeue Cartwright) but onely a dignitie, or preheminence in meetings, to goe, or sit before the rest. But if you talke of the power, authoritie, and iu­risdiction of their Eldershippes: then sayth Danaeus, Vox potestatis in hac disputatione significat [...] Dan de potest. eccles. cap. 2. the word of power signifieth, as this Greeke worde doth properly import. And what is that▪ Forsooth, Ius & authoritatem alicu­ius gubernationis illi traditae, id est, alicuius reigerendae & regendae: Right and authoritie of some gouernment giuen vnto such a power, that is of the gouernement and rule of some thing. Nowe if this worde might haue beene so hap­pie, as to haue retained this signification in the sayde Councell of Nice, where there is speach of Bishops: Cartwright had beene put to his plunge,Beza. annot. Iohn. 1. and Bezaes annotation mentioned, would not haue helped him a rush. There is nothing more vsually obiected a­gainst the present estate, superioritie, and authoritie of Bishoppes,Vos autem non sic. than the place of Peter. Neque vt dominan­tes in cleris; Not as though yee were Lordes ouer the Clergie: And that of Luke 22. 1. Pet. 5. Luke 2a. Vos autem non sic; But you shall not be so. And it will not bee admitted in anie wise, that wee should expound those places, of ambitious affec­tation, of tyrannous practise, or of the abuse of such superioritie, [...]or iurisdiction. But if you will speake of the right, authoritie, and iurisdiction of their Elder­ships; the case is cleane altered. There are some, as it seemeth, beyond the seas, who seeing the pride of the consistorian gouernement, doe affirme; That the power of the Church is onely spirituall, and not any external exercise, practise, and right of any authoritie, power, and go­uernment. With this opposition, so much derogating from the dignitie of their Elderships, Danaeus is moo­ued; [Page 300] and answering that conceit, sayth: that although the power of the Church, Dan. de potest. eccles. cap 3. ad animarum salutem sit comparata; be instituted for the health of soules: yet notwithstanding, it hath necessarily annexed vnto it, an indissoluble band, an externall exercise, practise, and vse, iuris & gubernati­onis, of lawe and gouernment. Against this aunswere, replye (as it seemeth) is made with the same places mentioned, that are vrged against our Bishops. Wher­vpon Danaeus, to make all thinges cleare, addeth these wordes to his former aunswere, and publisheth the same from Geneua. Ibidem. Nam quod &c. Whereas it may bee obiected out of Peter: Non dominantes, &c. Not bearing rule, &c. And out of Luke: Vos autem non sic: but you shall not be so: Facilè soluitur: it is easily aunswered. Dam­natur enim partim abusus, non vsus illius potestatis, partim illius cum ciuili confusio: for partly the abuse is condemned, not the vse of that power, and partly the confusion of it with the ciuill power. Which is the verie aunswere that wee doe make and approoue, beeing extorted from them by Gods good prouidence; for the stopping of our mens mouthes, who vppon pretence of those places, haue opened them so wide against the lawfull autho­ritie of our Bishops.

It hath beene greatly grudged-at by these refor­mers, New parliam. men. that Bishoppes are allowed to bee of the vpper house of Parliament: and saine they would haue them out, if they knew how: Notwithstanding, for ought I can finde, they haue enioyed that honourable prero­gatiue, euer since there was an high Court of Parlia­ment in England. And still the worde of God is made the pretence for whatsoeuer they desire: so as euer you vnderstand that they themselues are excepted. [Page 301] Whereof it commeth, that the very same proiect is made to the Lordes of her Maiesties most honourable Councell, which was deuised by Beza for Scotland, vz. that in place of the Bishops, Humble motio. pag. 52. there might be present in the par­liament house some wise and graue Ministers of especiall gifts & learning,Beza de tripl. episc.sorted out of all the land: to yeld their Coun­cell, according to Gods heauenly lawe, euen as the ciuill Iudges are readie to giue their aduise according to the temporall law, and for matters of greater difficultie. But would they sitte there as the Iudges doe, and haue no voices▪ I take it, they would scorne that greatly. For I nothing doubt, but if they were there, they would account them­selues the wisest in the companie. And therefore, it was more substantially considered of by him, who penned a Supplication to her Maiestie, and wished, That foure and twentie Doctors of Diuinitie, Found amongst Fields bookes. (to be called by such names as it should please hir highnes) might be admitted into the Parliament house, and haue their voyces there in steade of the Bishops. And would they bee called Lords, if it pleased her Maiestie for the honour of that house to appoynt it so? Their wordes doe import so much: and I make no doubt of it, but that to gratifie her high­nesse, they would bee content to humble themselues so farre.

In the hope which they haue conceiued, to ouer­throw the state of Bishoppes, Conuocation. and to haue their deuise allowed of, and established in the lande: they inueigh most bitterly against the Bishoppes, and the Conuo­cation house, misliking that the dealing in ecclesiasti­call causes, should bee committed vnto them, in sorte as now it is: affirming, that the liberties of the Parlia­ment, are th [...]reby betrayed: and that it appertaineth [Page 302] to that Court, to order matters of religion. But what if the Bishops were excluded, and none admitted in­to the Conuocation house, but such as they woulde chuse from amongst themselues: how then? Indeed (saith the Supplicator) If the Conuocation house were such as it ought to bee, Suppl pag. 45. &c. then were it not lawfull for the Parli­ament to establish any thing, in the matters appertaining to the pure worship of God, but by theyr direction. Which is this in effect,Admon. 2. p. 57 (if I vnderstand them:) that the Parlia­ment should prouyde theyr new pretended gouernours, of suffi­cient maintenance, and set vp theyr Eldershippes; and then enact it likewise: that whatsoeuer they should ordaine in their assemblies and meetings, for the time to come concerning Church causes: should be in full strength, and for euer obeyed, vntill it might please them to make some alteration. Which is the point that Knox aymed at,Exhort. to Engl. pag. 91. &c. in his Exhortation to England: wherein for the good instruction of her Maiesties subiectes, he sendeth them from Geneua, these Allobrogicall rules: That the pretended discipline ought to bee set vp: that all Princes ought to submit themselues vnder the yoke of it: that what Prince, King, or Emperour shall disanull the same, he is to be reputed Gods enemie, and to be helde vnworthie to raigne aboue his people: and then sayth, if such order were once established, as there he prosecuteth, and the discipline well executed accordingly: Ibid pag. 99. theyr yearely comming to the Parliament, for matters of religion, shall bee superfluous and vayne. And this also is playne, by Cart­wrights newe forme of discipline, subscribed vnto by himselfe, and his fellowes. Which forme they haue auowed vppon theyr oathes to bee such, as that they purposed to haue beene suitors to her Maiestie, for the [Page 303] generall establishing of it. In which their purpose, if once they may preuayle: there shall neuer Parliament bee troubled againe in matters of religion: otherwise then (as I sayde) for making of lawes, that the people may obey their orders. For the whole gouernement is there ascribed vnto their Elderships, & other assem­blies; insomuch, as the ciuill Magistrate is not once mentioned in it.

It is well knowne how vehement they haue been,A Councellor. and still continue, against the now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, in that he is one of her Maiesties most honourable priuie Councell, accounting it vnlawful, for a Bishop or Minister of the worde, to holde anie such roome and authoritie. And yet notwithstan­ding, it is greatly allowed of, & liked: that Beza in Ge­neua, should be one of the Councel of that state there, one of the threescore: and they admit not anie into theyr Consistory, so much as the meanest of their Al­dermen; but hee must bee eyther a Syndicke, or one of the Councell of threescore, or one of the Councell of two hundreth. Now I cannot possibly be brought to thinke, that the worde of God should deale so par­tially: but that it may bee as lawfull heere, as there, if it please her Maiestie, to haue a Bishop to bee one of her most honourable Councell.

It is apparant in the former Chapiter, Their Synods must bind. what little account they make of generall Councels. The best are censured by them, and reprooued. It is not well borne by Cartwright, that the Councell of Nice should be tearmed a famous Councell. And for other Coun­cels, or Synodes; they are scarcely reckoned to bee worthie the mentioning. If you presse one of that [Page 304] forte, with the authoritie of them all; though hee be not thirty yeares of age, hee will not sticke to make a tush at them: and tell you, that himselfe is of another opinion. No decrees made by them, will bind these fellowes. And as touching our owne nationall Sy­nodes and Parliaments: they are prosecuted with the greatest contempt. The reformation of religion made by that authoritie: is tearmed a deformation. The articles of religion, are misliked in diuers points. The Iniunctions, Aduertisements; Canons, Orders, Ce­remonies, and all thinges in a manner, are despised by them. For they are but mens preceptes (forsooth:) e­uery man must trie them, and keepe or allowe what he list; at the least, if hee will but pretend, that hee dooth it of conscience. Howbeit, if they may haue once au­thoritie to establish their Elderships, and to meete to­gether in theyr classicall, prouinciall, or nationall as­semblies, there to make such lawes and orders, as they shall thinke good: then see (I praye you) how they chaunge theyr song. Gelibrand to Field. Touching my departure from that holy assembly without leaue, &c. Icraue pardon. Holy assem­bly. It was a Conuenticle in London, about the yeare 1584.Fen. to Field. I am ready to runne, if the Church commaund, ac­cording to the holy decrees, and orders of discipline. Holy de­crees and orders. The matter was, for his going into the Lowe Countries with the Earle of Leicester, and for his absence from his benefice.Admon. 2. pa. 31 To the determination of a nationall Synode, men shall stande as it was at Ierusalem, except it bee in a great matter of fayth; or a great matter ex­pressely against the Scriptures. It was agreede vppon in the Northampton classis,Iohnson & Lit­tletonsworne. that concerning any matters of doctrine, or about the sense of any place of Scriptures, the [Page 305] brethren within that compasse, must stande to the determi­nation of that cl [...]ssis. And these are the orders, to this poynte, in the newly subscribed booke of discipline. Plurium sententiae verbo Dei consentaneae, singulares omnes eius cansilij, & conuentus ecclesiae parere debent. All Chur­ches must obey the sentence of the greater part of that Coun­cellor assembly, vnder whose direction they are, the same be­ing agreeable to the worde of God. And agayne: It is made a part of theyr Aldermens office to see: Vt quae à con­uentibus piè decreta retulerint, à ciuibus suis earum ecclesia­rum studiosè obseruentur: that those godly decrees which they shall bring from the assemblyes, bee diligently obserued of theyr Cittizens of those Churches. Lastly: Conuentus sen­tentia rata habeatur, donec à conuentu maior is authorita­tis secus iudicatum puerit. Let the sentence of euery assem­bly bee ratified, vntill it shall be otherwise iudged-of by an as­sembly of greater authoritie: As a classicall, to bee ouer­ruled by a prouinciall; a prouinciall, by a nationall; a nationall, by a generall. And thus they write of theyr owne orders and assemblyes. Which rules, take them altogether as they lye, if they bee true: (as I doe not greatly dislike them being well applyed) then do these busie bodies among vs, sin most directly against theyr own consciences: in that they oppose themselues, (as they do) against those things which the greater part of the national Sinode, & high court of parliament of this Realme, hath allowed of: beeing most agreeable to the worde of God, before some generall Councell, or assembly of more authoritie, haue iudged otherwise, and determined, for the course that they haue procee­ded in. Generall Councell I am sure they haue none. And for any other assembly, that hath beene held, and [Page 306] should haue greater authoritie in England, than the nationall Synode of all our owne Churches, and the high Court of Parliament; let them name it.

In their writinges generally, they exclayme a­gainst the high Commission, Commission. or at the least, against the Commissioners; as many of them as bee clergie men: affirming it to bee against the worde of God, that any such should bee of that Commission.Acts of secret Counceil prin­ted 1590. And yet in Scotland, it was agreeable with the Scriptures, that fortie or fiftie at the least, Ministers of the worde, (as I conceyue it) shoulde bee verie great Commissio­ners from the King, Anno 1589. to very manie great purposes: euen for the purging of that lande from all sortes of enemies, to the religion there professed. Likewise, earnest suite is made, in the Supplication before mentioned,Suppl. to her Maiestie. to her Maiestie, and found in Fields study: that the foresaid foure & twentie Doctors, that should bee of the Parliament house, might be likewise generall Com­missioners vnder the great scale of England (or the more part of them) to beare and determine, all and euery secte, errour, heresie, contempt, default, and misdemeanour, agaynst the worde of God, and her Maiesties lawes of reformation of re­ligion: to depriue any Pastour, not dooing or neglecting his duetie: to examine witnesses, and to imprison the bodyes of all such malefactors, and to certifie their names to the Lordes of her Maiesties Councell, that they may receiue further con­digne punishment. Besides, there bee some that resem­ble the high Commission, nowe in force; vnto the au­thoritie which they challenge to theyr seuerall Elder­ships. Whereupon one of them, acquainted, (I doubt not) with the desires of the rest,Petition to her Maicst. pag. 13. sayth: That if the high Commission were setled in fiue hundred places more than it is: [Page 307] and shoulde gouerne by the worde of God, and lawes of this Realme; there would rise more profit thereby to religion, than yet hath beene found by the Bishops. He would haue it in fiue hundreth places. Scotland is diuided into two and fiftie Eldershippes: and of likelyhood they would haue fiue hundred in England. And that, as I take it, is the mystery of his number of fiue hundred. To conclude, I finde another motion, which liketh wel, that if there were fiue hundred Elderships more or fewer established, yet there might be in euery great Towne, Humb motion pag. 62. certaine Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall ap­poynted: to looke that the Elderships did their dueties, & if they did not, to compel them therunto by ciuill authority. So as therby it appeareth, that although our Bishops, & other Clergie men may not be such Commissioners with vs in some few places: yet their Pastors, Doc­tors, & Aldermen, may, in euery parish, or so many of them, (or I knowe not whom) as it should please her Maiestie, to assigne to euery greate Towne. Surely the worde of God is much troubled with such kinde of choppers and chaungers of it; euery giddy heade wresting and wringing it, to serue his owne deuise. Wee shoulde haue Commissions to thatch houses withall (I see:) if they might be our directors.

They are offended with the authoritie that her Maiestie dooth giue vnto her Commissioners, Purseuants. for causes ecclesiasticall, as beeing vnlawfull, in that by vertue of that commission, they may sende some­times for offendors to appeare before them, by pur­seuants; and commit them to prison, as occasion shal fall out, and theyr faultes, misdemeanors, and con­tempts shall require. But at Geneua, the like authori­tie [Page 308] (in effecte) is lawfull in their Eldership. Lawes of Ge­neua. fol. 15. For there the Consistorie hath a Beadle, sergeant, or purseuant, or as you lift to tearme him, appoynted by the ciuill Magistrates to attende vppon it: whose office is, to call such before the Consistorie, as the Aldermen shall appoynt him. And for imprisoning of any of­fendors, and contemptuous persons; there is nota­ny matter almost, for the which they may call a man before them: but one parte of the punishment of it, by the lawes of the Cittie, is imprisonment. As if any when hee appeareth in the Consistorie, or els where, be so hardie as but to speake euill of any of the Ministers, Lawes of Ge­neua. fol. 71. or misname them, he is to be imprisoned. Besides, as I haue noted it before; theyr Elders are alwayes of the Councell of state: and seldome or neuer, but they will bee sure to haue one of the foure Syndickes, to bee of that bench. So as together, they raigne lyke Lordes in theyr Consistorie: and who dare say; My Lordes, why doe you so? If they direct: imprison­ment, is but a small matter. I speake not agaynst that order there: let them vse it as they thinke good. Only I see not, why the worde of God should bee so boun­tifull to them, and is so sparing to vs.

In that by the orders of our Church,Subscription. and the laws of the Realme, there is required of Ministers, a sub­scription to her Maiesties lawfull authoritie in eccle­siasticall causes; to the Articles of Religion, and to the Communion booke, &c. greate quarrels haue beene raysed, and many exceptions are taken against it.Humb. motion. Insomuch as one, (a wise man I warraunt you) dooth ascribe all the daungers that haue beene com­plotted against her Maiesties person by the traitrous [Page 309] Papistes: the dearth of corne: the cause that we haue had such watching and warding by souldiers: and last­ly, that the Spanyards would haue inuaded this land; all these thinges are ascribed (I say) by him, vnto the exacting of the sayde subscription. Howbeit, yet Cartwright and his confederates, could take vppon them, in a seditious sort, to require a secrete subscrip­tion amongst theyr fauourers; vnto such a forme of newe Church gouernement, as hee with the rest of that crue, after many meetinges and alterations, had deuised. Wherein if theyr fancies might once take place, subscriptions would not seeme so daintie as now they doe. For there is subscription required v­pon subscription. No man is to bee chosen vnto a­nie ecclesiasticall office with them: Nisi qui disciplinae subscripserit; except he haue subscribed to theyr discipline: Whosoeuer is to bee of any of their assemblyes, ey­ther classicall, prouinciall, or nationall, hee must first haue subscribed to their discipline. And not thus content, it is there also further ordred; that none shalbe admitted to the holy Communion, except they submit themselues vnto theyr discipline. So as heereby, euery temporall man; of what calling soeuer, is brought vnder theyr subie­ction. Of likelyhood they thinke, that no man can be a worthy receiuer of that holy Sacrament: that is not well perswaded of their counterfait platform. At Ge­neua, whosoeuer is to be admitted into their schoole; he must first subscribe to theyr discipline. Lawes of the Vniuērsitie. And not that onely, but he is tyed to make a publike confession of that fayth, wherein theyr forme of discipline is comprised for an Articlē. And the like confession is also requy­red, of all them that will receyue the Communion [Page 310] there.Beza in vita Calu. But what talke I of subscriptions, or professi­ons? Maister Caluin, when that discipline was first set vp, procured a generall oath to bee taken throughout the Cittie, for the approbation of it. Whosoeuer also is made Minister there:Lawes of Ge­neua. fol. 3. he sweareth to keepe theyr eccle­siasticall ordinances; and consequently, the discipline there practised. All theyr Elders in like maner, thogh one of them be one of the Syndicks, doe take an oath to the same effect:Ibid. fol. 9. when they sweare, to perfourme theyr office faythfully, and to bring all thinges to the Consistorie, which are worthie to bee brought before it. As if the soue­raigne heere, should take an oath, to bee a promoter. But that which is moste of all: they haue preuayled so much with the Magistrates, (and there is good cause why) that it is made death, for any man, to lette, or stoppe, Ibid. fol. 81. or cause to hinder, the worde and seruice of God, and his holy Gospell. Within which compasse, you maye bee sure, theyr discipline is comprehended. Our men as yet, talke in their platforme, but of subscrip­tions: but if once they had gotten so much, then forward must the rest, or els they would bee angry. How carelesly subscription is exacted in England, I am ashamed to report. Such is the retchlesnes of ma­ny of our Bishoppes, on the one side: and theyr de­sire to bee at ease and quietnes, to thinke vppon their owne affayres: and on the otherside, such is the ob­stinacie and intollerable pride of that factious sorte: as that betwixt both sides, eyther subscription is not at all required: or if it be, the Bishops admit them so to quallifie it, that it were better to bee omitted alto­gether. If the best, and the learnedst man in Chri­stendome, were in Geneua, and shoulde oppose him­selfe [Page 311] to any thing that the Church there holdeth: if hee escaped with his life, he might thanke God: but hee shoulde bee sure, not to continue as a Minister there. There is no Church established in Christen­dome, so remisse in this point, as the Church of Eng­land. For in effecte: euery man vseth, and refuseth what hee lifteth. Some few of late haue beene restrai­ned, who had almost raysed the lande into an open sedition. But else, they followe theyr owne fancies: and may not bee dealt withall (forsooth) for feare of disquietnes. No man shall euer perswade mee, but that the worde of God, dooth giue as free libertie to the Church of England, for the repressing of such scis­maticks; as eyther to Geneua, or to any other Church whatsoeuer.

There is a kind of oath,The oath ex [...] officio. tearmed an oath ministred Ex officio: which is, and alwayes hath beene mini­stred in certayne causes, in euery Court almost, with­in the Realme: but especially, in the chiefest. This kinde of oath, beeing ministred also by her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical, for these foar and thyrtie yeares: is now especially greatly impug­ned, and many exceptions are taken agaynst it. As, a man maye not bee driuen, to confesse any thing a­gainst himselfe, nor his godly brethren: what you will charge vs with, proue it. You may not admit an accusation against an Elder, vnder two or three wit­nesses. If you haue witnesses, why aske you vs? And many such like obiections are made, & maintained. Howbeit this opposition is altogether without con­sideration, and by them, that knowe not what they do. For at Geneua, this manner of oath is currant. And [Page 312] I am sure, the brotherhood heere would bee verie loth, to oppose themselues against any point of doc­trine, that is allowed of there.

It fortuned vppon a time, that certayne persons meeting together, at one widdow Balthasars house in Geneua to be merrie, did there daunce. Maister Caluin hearing of this horrible sinne (forsooth) procured them all, both dauncers and beholders, to bee called before him and his Elders, in the Consistorie. When they appeared; Caluin tooke vppon him to examine them, and vsed (as hee tearmeth them) certaine holy obtestations, that they should tell him truely, whether there were any such dauncing or no, where it was, and who daunced, &c. They denied the matter who­ly: which he expresseth Apostlelike in these words: Impudenter nobis & Deo mentiti sunt: Cal. Farello. epist. 71. They lyed impu­dently to God and vs: Excandui, I grewe pale with anger (saith hee) and inueighed eagerly against such theyr con­tempt of God. But they continued in theyr contuma­cie. Whereupon Caluin, (the matter, as hee sayth, be­ing certainely knowne vnto him,) protested before God; Poenas. tantae perfidiae daturos, That they should bee punished for such theyr falshood. And because hee could not otherwise get the truth from them:Ibidem. Censui vt iu­reiurando ad veri confessionem adigerentur: I iudged it meete (sayth hee) that by oath they should bee compelled to confesse the truth. It should seeme, they made the like exceptions, that our contumacious fellows do make. And, one Henriche, a Minister (as it seemeth) who (as I take it) daunced not, but did in some sorte by waye of supposition, (if any such dauncing had been) take vppon him to defende it, as not beeing a matter to [Page 313] keepe such a stirre about: alleadged the verie same place that Cartwright did in the Consistorie at Paules, and the which all the rest of that brotherhood doe commonly alleadge:Ibidem. vz. Against an Elder receiue no accusation, but vnder two or three witnesses. But how was this allegation liked of? Surely it was laughed at, & tearmed by Caluin, Altercatio non illepida: a pleasant ieast. It seemeth also, that besides the threatning spee­ches mentioned, there were other vsed in like man­ner, which did more terrifie them. For (saith Caluin:) Tandem adieci, &c. Ibidem. At the length I added further, that they must build themselues another Cittie, and liue therein by themselues, except they would bee contayned heere, vn­der the yoake of Christ, (hee meaneth theyr Consisto­rie) and that as long as they liued in Geneua, they did striue, but in vaine, not to obey the lawes there. Well, by what meanes they were drawne vnto their oath, I will not stand vpon it: but sworne they were, and so confessed all. Whereupon, Omnes in carcerem coniecti; They were all cast into prison.

Amongst the sayd dauncers,Ibidem. besides the said Hen­riche, (who was depriued of his Ministerie, and com­mitted to prison for three dayes) there was in that company, one of the foure Syndickes, or chiefe Ma­gistrates of the Cittie: and hee was remooued from his office, vntill hee had giuen some testimonie of his repentance: which vppon the admonition of the said Consistorie, hee presently did (as it seemeth) and so escaped prison. There was also an other in that meeting, named Perrin, the Captaine of the Cit­tie (as I take it) a man with whome Caluin had many quarrels. Hee (as it seenieth) perceiuing by Caluins [Page 314] eagernes, what would fall out about that sporte, got himselfe to Lyons, hoping before his returne, Rem ta­citè sepultam iri: That the matter would bee deade and buryed. But sayth Caluin of him after his returne: Quicquid agat,Ibidem.poenam non effugiet: Doe what he can, hee shall not escape vnpunished. In this Perrins absence, his wife Francisca, hearing (as I suppose) that Caluin shold vtter some harde and angry wordes agaynst her hus­band, rayled both against him, and the rest of the Consistoriall associates. But Caluin aunswered her, Vt merebatur, as shee deserued. And this was the ende of that inquisition. Perrin with his wife were com­mitted to prison, as the rest of his fellowes had been: hee for dauncing; and shee (I thinke) for rayling. Whereof Maister Caluin wrote thus to his friend: Perrinus cum vxore fremit in carcere: Ibidem. Vidua prorsus in­sanit: alij pudore confusi silent: Perrin with his wife dooth frette in prison: the widdowe Balthasar is quite madde: o­ther beeing ashamed, doe holde theyr peace. Heere was good Consistorian and round dealing. It should ap­peare, that Caluin tooke as much vppon him, as some Bishoppes or Commissioners in England doe. But why shoulde I stande so long vppon this example▪ It maye bee sayde, wee must not lyue by examples. And it is true. Heare therefore for the conclusion of this poynte, a Canon of the reformed Churches in Fraunce. French dis. cap. of the consist. The faythfull may bee constrayned by the Con­sistorie, to say the truth, so farre foorth as it derogateth no­thing from the authoritie of the Magistrate. Constray­ned? this may reach farre. But the worde of God al­loweth them there (it should seeme) what they lift. In my opinion, if such maner of proceeding be law­full [Page 315] at Geneua, and in Fraunce; it may in some sorte be tolerated in England.

It is a thing too manifest,Thinges vsed in Popery. with what libelling and rayling, the forme of our seruice, of our ceremonies, of our ornamentes, of our apparrell, &c. hath beene depraued, and shamefully slaundered.Adm. 2. T.C. As, That our Communion booke was culled out of the Popes Portuise: this was abused in Poperie: that is papisticall: it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes, than to the Papistes. These and those thinges were deuised by the Pope, that Antichristian beast▪ Whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope, which is Antichrist, commeth first from the deuill. If of the egges of a Cockatrice, can be made whol­some meate to feede with: or of a spyders webbe, any cloth to couer withall: then maye also the thinges that come from the Pope, and the Deuill, bee good, profitable, and necessarie vnto the Church. Against these, and many such lyke speeches, aunswere hath beene made: that it is law­full to trie all things, and to holde that which is good. That these thinges which are good, were not so defi­led by theyr beeing in the Popes portuise: but that they might bee taken thence, and vsed. That we must distinguish betwixt the abuse of a thing, and the law­full vse of it. That it is no good reason: the Papists abused this, therefore wee maye not vse it. That, as good men sometimes deuise that which is euill; so euill men may sometimes deuise that which is pro­fitable, &c. But all these aunsweres, and a number more besides, to the same effect: are misliked, deny­ed, and condemned by these our factioners.

Howbeit, vppon occasion the streame is turned, and they themselues are driuen to make the verie [Page 316] same aunsweres, for the iustifiyng of their owne pro­ceedinges, and for the maintenance of certaine par­ticular matters, which they doe vrge and allowe of. It hath beene layde to their charge, that for all theyr goodly pretences of reformation: yet indeede the cour [...]e they helde, did smell most rankly of Anabap­tisme, Donatisme, and of a newe kinde of Papisme: As, where t [...]ey disquiet the peace of the Churches already reformed: rayle vppon our Ministers, and theyr calling: affirme, that our Sacramentes are not sincerely ministred: that there is no Church as it should bee, but those that they like of: that our ce­remonies and orders, are all vnlawfull: that we haue no lawfull Ministers, nor Bishoppes: that Princes may not deale in causes ecclesiasticall, &c. These, and manye such like poyntes beeing layde to theyr charge: Cartwright (as though hee had neuer drea­med of any thing to the contrary) frameth this ge­nerall aunswere in the name of all his fraternitie. If amongst the filth of their heresies, T.C. lib. 2. in the epist. (vz. of Papistes, Ana­baptistes, and Donatistes) there may bee found any good thing (as it were a grayne of good corne, in a great deale of darnell) that wee willingly receyue▪ not as theyrs, but as the Iewes did the holy Arke from the Philistines, whereof they were vniust owners. For heerein it is true that is said: The sheepe must not laye downe her fell; because shee seeth the Wolfe sometyme cloathed with it. Yea, it maye come to passe, that the Synagogue of Sathan maye haue some one thing at some time with more conuenience, than the true and Catholicke Church of Christ. Such was the ceremo­nie of powring water once onelye vppon the childe in Bap­tisme vsed with vs, and in the moste reformed Churches, [Page 317] which in some age was vsed by those of the Eunomian he­resie. Hitherto Cartwright. Whose aunswere if it bee true, dooth concurre with ours, and may stay his owne, and his fellowes gyddinesse heereaf­ter.

Cartwright was purposed once,The degree of Doctor. to haue been Do­ctor of Diuinitie. And thereof hee writeth in this sorte. I had the aduise of more than a doozen learned Mi­nisters,T.C. lib. 2. in the epist.who considering that I had the office of a Doctor in the Vniuersitie, were of opinion, that (for the good they esteemed might bee doone thereby) I might swallowe the fonde and idle ceremonies, which accompany it. To the re­quest of which friendes I yeelded. But when his Grace came to bee propounded to the Vniuersitie, that de­gree was denyed him. Which (I suppose) to be the cause, why euer since, both hee, and Trauerse his scholler, haue written so scornefully of that degree: excepte a man maye gesse, that they haue an eye therein to Geneua: where, there beeing but as it were a Grammer schoole (in comparison of our V­niuersities) no suche kinde of order can well bee v­sed, and therefore it is contemned, reprooued, and laughed at (in effecte) amongst them: as it maye ap­peare by Bezaes wordes, in his pittifull booke against M. Doctor Sarauia.

The like course against Vniuersitie degrees, was helde by the Anabaptistes, long since in Germanye: and was mightily encountred by that woorthy lear­ned man, P. Melancthon. Barrowe also, with his re­tinue at this time, doe holde the same positions in England. And, as it seemeth, that Anabaptisticall humour, is not yet repressed in the skirts of Fraunce. [Page 318] Whereupon Franciscus Iunius hath written a booke;Iunij. Acad. intituled his Academia: of purpose, to confute suche fantasticall persons. In the Epistle whereof, after he hath discouered the fooleries of the Anabaptists: he commeth to the other sorte: (I thinke hee meaneth Beza, and suche lyke,) whome hee honoureth with greate tytles of grauitie, learning: authoritie, and iudgemente. These men (sayth hee) with two wea­pons doo seeme to wound to death, the lawes of our Vniuersi­ties: vz. with reasons, and with examples. The exam­ples he answereth: and I will not further deale with them, otherwise than by referring you to the sayde Epistle. But the reasons and his aunsweres, are the poyntes I ayme at. Theyr reasons he setteth downe in these wordes: (a man might thinke hee had reade Cartwrightes wordes before mentioned:) Quia plu­rima sunt (inquiunt) superflua & puerilia: abusus multi: omnia profecta à Pontificijs: Because manye thinges (they saye) are superfluous and childishe: there are manye a­buses: all suche orders and ceremonyes, came from the Pope.

Touching the first reason, hee sheweth suche or­ders and ceremonies as they vse, are neyther Reipsa, aut significatione; In theyr nature, or in theyr significati­on: eyther superfluous, or childish; and so not such at all as is obiected: and that they are vsed, sine super­stitione & iniuria vlla, Without superstition, or any iniury: and so proceedeth to other arguments for them.

To the second reason, his aunswere is in effecte: that hee supposeth no man of learning will say, that The vse of a lawfull thing is to bee abrogated, Propter in­dignum illius vsum, For the vnlawfull vse of it.

[Page 319]And to the last reason, that suche orders came from the Bishoppes of Rome, hee aunswereth: Esto sanè &c. Bee it so; that I may graunt them so much. But whatsoeuer good, honest, or orderly thyng, wee haue recey­ued of the Popes, or Papistes, must wee reiect it, because it came from them? Nay rather; Whatsoeuer good, honest, and orderly thing they haue, lette vs haue it common with them, if they will suffer vs: if they will not suffer vs, at the least lette vs retayne it as well as they, for the publike good. Wee (hee speaketh of himselfe I thinke, and of the learned men about Heidelberge, and New-stade) if there bee any thing good amongst the Papistes: if they haue de­uised anie good and profitable thing: God forbid that wee shoulde bee carried away with suche a madde hatred of Pa­pistes, as that wee should refuse it. Heere then you haue the iudgement (as it seemeth) of those reformed Churches, eyther of them both excelling Geneua. For one of them, Geneua is but a hamlet vnto it. Which iudgemente beeing ioined to Cartwrightes wordes, dooth aunswere for all those thinges before mentio­ned, that our lauish fraternitie doe still taunt at so bit­terly.

There is nothing more vsually obiected agaynst the preheminence,The name of a Bisho [...] which our Bishoppes haue ouer other Ministers, than that in the Scriptures the name of Bishop, is likewise giuen to euery Minister of the worde. Whereupon they inferre with all confiden­cie, as though it were impossible to bee otherwise, that because the name was then common, therefore theyr functions differed not, but were likewise all one. Heereunto, I knowe not how oft, they haue beene aunswered: that the communitie of names in [Page 320] the Scriptures, dooth not take away the distinction of offices. Princes are called Deacons: Apostles, are tearmed Priests, or Elders: and yet therby it may not be gathered, that there was no difference betweene the office of euery Deacon, and of Princes: between the office of the Apostles, and euery Priest, or Mini­ster of the worde. And so wee saye of Bishoppes: that although the name of Bishoppes bee giuen in the Scriptures to other inferiour Ministers likewise: yet doth it not followe, that betweene the office of a Bishoppe, and of a Priest or Minister, there is, and should bee no difference. But all this, & much more to this purpose, will not serue our turnes: and yet with Beza to another purpose, it is a maruellous suffi­cient answere.

Erastus goeth about to prooue, that the name of Elder, when it is taken in the newe Testament for an ecclesiasticall office: dooth euer signifie a Minister of the worde, and not anye of theyr counterfayte and vnpriestly Aldermen. And one of his reasons is this: Because in the newe Testament, the names of Bi­shoppe, and of Elder, are common: as if a man shoulde saye: hee that was a Bishoppe, was called an Elder; and hee that was an Elder, was called a Bishop: there­fore theyr offices were all one: and so consequent­ly; euerie Bishoppe beeing a Minister of the worde, euery Elder must needes bee a Minister of the word. Heereunto Beza maketh this aunswere: which if we rise not alwayes vppon our lefte sides, might bee of as greate force in our mouthes,Beaa de excom. pag. 11 [...]. as in Bezaes. Scien­dum est, &c. It is to bee obserued, that there is scarsely anie name, whereby anye ecclesiasticall office is signified, that is [Page 321] not sometimes taken generally lykewise. Heereof it com­meth, that the name of Apostles is attributed also to them, who by a more proper name were called Euangelistes: Saint Paule dooth call his Apostleship a Deaconship: And Pe­ter calleth himselfe a Priest: and Luke calleth those, Priestes, who are afterward called of Paule by a more generall name, Bishoppes: Quitamen & reipsa & ijsdem specialiter acceptis nominibus, distincta esse illorum mune­ra, nemo dubitare possit: Whereas yet notwithstanding, both in deede or in nature, the same names beeing taken specially, no man can doubt, but that the offices of Apo­stles, of Euangelistes, of Deacons, of Bishoppes, and of Priestes are distincte. See what respecte of persons there is amongst our pretended reformers. I am per­swaded, there is not one of them that will presume to encounter with this aunswere of Bezaes: and yet when other men, as learned as euer hee was, or will bee, made the same in effecte, it was accoun­ted by some of them, not to bee woorth a strawe.

Hee that hath reade Martins libelles,A new Mini­sterie. the Demon­stration, and certayne bookes of Penryes, maye see what a reuell they keepe with Archbishops, and Bi­shoppes, grounding themselues vppon one of Cart­wrightes principles:T.C. l. 2. p. 439. That any increase of authoritie, be­ing added to a Church-Minister, dooth cleane chaunge his Ministerie, and maketh it a new Ministerie. Wher­vpon they conclude, that Archbishoppes, and Bi­shoppes, hauing receyued an increase of theyr au­thorities, by diuerse Councelles, &c. are become to bee of a newe Ministerie, neuer ordayned by Christ, nor his Apostles: and so consequently, vn­lawfull, [Page 323] and to bee abolished. The follie of this collection hath beene shewed manie wayes; both by reasons, and by examples: but yet they haue not beene satisfied. But nowe you shall see they are put to silence for euer. For Beza is peremptorie to the contrarie of that, which they haue so inforced. In his booke agaynst Doctor Sarauia, speaking of a place of Ieromes, Pag. 152. how Bishoppes were ordayned for orders sake, &c. hee sayth in effecte: That when they had such authoritie giuen then for orders sake; Mutatio non suit in re ipsa: id'est, in ipso ordine, sed tantùm in or­dinis modo: There was no chaunge made in the thinge it selfe, that is, in the order: but in the manner or measure of the order. And afterwards more plainely, where hee setteth downe another manner of principle than Cartwrightes: Pag. 153. vz. That wee must distinguish betweene the nature of a thing, and that which adhereth vnto it acciden­tally; because, Eo in aliud cōmutato, vel sublato, res ipsa per­manet; The accident beeing chaunged, or taken away, the thing it selfe remaineth. Whereupon (if I vnderstande him) he groweth to this issue:Pag. 141.152. That the increase of any such authority (as is before mentioned) or the alteration of the manner or order, is not of the essence of the Ministery, but a thing that is accidentall, and may be chaunged accor­ding to the circumstaunces of times and places. And hee bringeth this example.Pag. 153. Accidentale fuit, &c. It was acci­dentall, &c. Vt vnusquispiam iudicio caeierorum compres­byterorum delectus, presbyterio [...]esset, & permaneret: That one beeing chosen by the iudgement of the rest of his fellow-priests, or Elders, should be the President, or the Pre­late ouer the presbytery, and so continue.

You will aske mee perhaps, how this geare comes [Page 323] about:Beza. that Beza is so opposite, to Cartwright. I will tell you my conceit. I suppose that matters of their pre­tended Discipline are growen to greater ripenes in Ge­neua, then they are (thankes be to God) in England: and that therfore Beza is more franke, to let vs see what they generallie shoote at; then Cartwright dare bee as yet. For howsoeuer Cartwright presumed to tell vs (as it seemeth vntrulie) that,T. C. lib. 2. pag. 31. [...] their moderator forsooth should be cho­sen, but for one action only: and that Caluin being chosen to that office for two yeares (& so as I take it from two yeares to two yeares) misliked, that small preheminence should so long remayne with one, which in time might breede inconueni­ence: and that Beza also misliked it for that cause: Yet now you see that Beza is far from that base conceit, & think­eth that, that office, maie bee permanent: and further saith;Beza con. Sar. pag 143. that to ordaine it so now, certè reprehendi nec potest, nec debet, it neyther can nor ought surely to bee reprehended. And his reason is this, for that it hath beene an order, that one should bee so chosen, to haue such a permanent prehemi­nece in the Church euer since Saint Markes time. Beza con. Sar. pag. 116. Nay, he is come to this: that he is content to yeald in effect, that the institution of an Archbishop is agreable to the word of God: vz. ex illa generali et verissima Apostolica regula, &c. according to that generall & true Apostolicall rule, which appoynteth that all thinges should bee done orderly in the house of God. Est igitur or do &c. There is therefore (saith hee) an order in it selfe, and by it selfe prescribed by God, but the reason or vse of that order and the manner of it, dependeth vp­pon the circumstances of times, places, and persons, and is (as men speake) according to Lawes positiue. Nowe if these thinges that Beza writteth bee true: and that he him­selfe (peraduenture) could bee well inough pleased, to [Page 324] enioye such an office (if the sayde circumstances of time and place might serue his turne to obtaine it) then we perceaue that such additions of titles, and prehemi­nence, so he and his fellowes may haue them; do make no such alteration of the essence of the ministerie, as with vs is pretended.

There is great barking, against the church of England, for that by Act of parliament, some partes of the Canon. Law,Canon Law. are retained and to bee vsed by our Bishops, for the better gouernment of the Church: insomuch as the very name of the Canon law, is become odious; the commō sort of simple men of the factious crue, verily supposing, that the name of such a law, rule, or institution, is popish, vnlawfull, and diuelish: and therfore they crie, out cruci­fie it, crucifie it, awaie with it, wee will not be ruled by it: we will none of it. As though they shoúld saye: we are lawlesse men: for rules and orders we detest them: what­soeuer seemeth good in our own eyes, that we will doe: at the least if we euer yeald our obediēce to any church­law, it shall bee surelie of our own making: sie vppon all former Councels, sie vppon all those decisions, which the auncient fathers made; sie vpon all old and auncient constitutions. And thus in effect they write & speake, in their libels, and ordinarie table-talke: whereas not­withstanding, if there be anie thing in the Canon-law, that will serue their purposes, they can be contēt to steale it thence, & to take to themselues thereby, the commen­dation which is due to the true authors & fathers of it. Cartwright, & his fraternitie in their essentiall draught of discipline, haue drawen more then seuen partes of eight of it, out of the Canon-lawe, and auncient constitutions. Viretus perceiuing (but too late,) what hindrance grew to [Page 325] the platforme of their new discipline, by the vtter aboli­shing of the Canon-law at once, and as it were in a furie, (which, he supposed, did & wold still haue bridled prin­ces, if it had been retained and still in force) sheweth his dislike of such rashnes in these wordes.The 3. Dial. of white Diuils: They thought it a goodly reformation in the Church to abolish all the Canons & decrees with the good statutes, which the auncient fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned, to mayntaine the good discipline in the church. The chiefe point indeed that grieued Viretus, (as there it appeareth at large) was this: because Princes by that meanes, had drawen their necks, frō vnder the yoke of discipline. A matter so much misliked by them, as that he is flatte of opinion: that it had beene better for the Church to haue kept the old Pope still, then by abroga­ting of the Canon law, and in giuing to Princes so great authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall; so to haue subiected her selfe to a new kind of papacie: euerie king & prince, being (as he saith) a new Pope by that meanes: & much worse then the olde. So that hereby, you see, what is the drift of our factious cōsistorians in laboring, to make the name of the Canō law odious. You may not think, that they differ in substance frō their M. Viretus: but they are growē more crafty. The matter that pincheth thē, is this: that in the acts of Parliament which are in force, there is euer a Prouiso, that nothing therof shal be in force, which is contrary to the laws of this Realme, or to the preroga­tiue roiall of the prince. If euer anie K. in England should be so far seduced, as that he would yeald to establish their counterfeit elderships in this Realme, with all the royall authoritie, which they challenge of right to belong vnto thē, & changing the two former prouisoes, should enact it, that all the canō-law shold be in force, sauing so much, as [Page 326] should bee contrary to the orders & prerogatiue of their elderships: If I shold then be aliue (as I trust I shall not) I durst before hand hazard a great wager vpon it, that they would most readily, & with a great applause, receiue it, & almost worship it. For as I said, you may not imagine, but that Viretus hath disclosed their verie hartes.

You know,Quire. there is in euery church for the most part a distinctiō of places betwixt the cleargie & the laity. We terme one place the chauncell, & the other the bodie of the church: which manner of distinctiō, doth greatly of­fend the tender consciences (forsooth) of the purer sorte of our reformers.Gilby in his dialog. Insomuch as M. Gilby, a chiefe mā in his time amongst thē, doth tearme the Quire a cage: & recko­neth that separatiō of the ministers from the congrega­tion: one of the hundred points of popery, which hee affirm­eth, do yet remaine in the church of England. Howbeit, admit but of their elderships into euery parish, & thē you haue thē, who will proue it out of the word of God, that there ought to be such a separation of their Aldermen, (euery one of thē, though he be but a Cobler) from the rest of the Idiots, that is, all the other parishioners, of what state soeuer.

Hic or do in ecclesia seruetur &c. Dan. de potest eccl. cap. 24. Let this order be obserued in the church (saith Danaeus, & he sendeth vs the rule frō Gene­ua) that these who do beare any office in the church, distinguātur et separentur a reliquo populo: may be distinguished & separated frō the rest of the people &c. It a fieri decorū est et vtile. For it is decēt & profitable that it should be so. The Bishop (he meaneth euery minister) must stand or sit, eminente loco; alofte &c. and let the elders sit by him: tum vt populo appareant, that the peo­ple may beholde them: tum vt ministri concionantis doctri­nam facilius intelligant et obseruent: and that they maye the [Page 327] more easily heare the doctrine of the Minister preaching, and the better marke it. For of likelihood, they are to be the prea­chers Censors.

You wil saie peraduenture, wher there is some L. Ma­ior, some Councellor of state, or some other great Magi­strate; Nay the King himselfe (for he must bee of some parish) where shall he or anie of them sit? That is wise­lie prouided for, I warrant you. For how should it other­wise be,ibidem seeing the Prouiso commeth from Geneua? Ma­gistratus pius, &c. Let the godly Magistrate, who is an hono­rable member of the Church, sit in an honourable and perspi­cuous place: where the Church may neither seeme, to fauoure the arrogancy and pride of men, nor the contempte of Magi­strates. And great discretion therein, surely. If the Ma­gistrate should sit too high, it would make him proude: if too low, it would bring him into contempt. Ergo modus in loco illi concedendo seruetur, &c, therefore let a mean be kept in appointing of a place vnto him, (Knight, Lorde, Earle, Duke, King, or Emperour, the holie Discipline respecteth no mens persons) that he may both vnderstand, he is preferred before the rest: and yet withall, that he hath no dominion ouer the word of God. In deede excesse in anie thing is nought, Sedeat itaque inferiori subsellio: let him therfore sit in a lower seat, then the preacher of the word of God, and the Prophet: that he may both see and acknowledge him­selfe to be subiect to the threats of the word. The parson or Bi­shop of euerie parish with his Artizan Elders, must sitte in the highest place, that the people may feede them­selues with the sight of them: the ciuile Magistrates (of what degree soeuer) must content themselues with infe­rior roomes: and the rest of the people are to sit super mattas & sedilia inferiora, vppon pesses and little lowe [Page 328] formes. I am perswaded it would greatlie trouble the subiects of England, to see such a Metamorphosis in her Maiesties Chappell. But see what a notable thing Disci­pline is: and how the Ministers of Geneua can plaie the Herralds, in marshalling of euerie state into their due places, according to their callings. If these men were then in England and should suruey our Quiers, I suppose nothing would offend them, but that, that they are too low. The place where the Roode-loft was, would bee thought peraduenture more sutable for their Elders. In­deed there the people might best behold them.

Lastlie,Fathers: T.C. l. 1. p. 112 because I will end this Chapter: if Cartwright can get but one Scholiaste, that doth in shew make for a­nie thing he liketh, it is notable to see what reuill hee maketh with it. And in like sort Maister Beza, when the Fathers do fit him, as in some points they doe against E­rastus:Beza con: Era. lib: scrip. fo. 12 then these manner of phrases are common. Rectè obseruauit Augustinus: Augustine wel obserued it &c. Againe, an vero Chrys. &c. what, doe you thinke that Chrysostome and all the old Churches; Beza ibi. fo. 24 not one excepted, saw not this? Againe, Hic te obtestamur frater &c. we do here besech you brother, that you would wel consider, in whose behalfe and against whom you dispute, cum rem ipsam ab vsu non distinguas: when you dis­tinguish not the thing it selfe from the abuse of it. ibidem. Againe, Haec Chrysostomus, ibidem fol. 27. quae tibi satisfacere rectè debent. These thinges Chrysostome affirmeth, which ought to satisfie you fully. Again, Nunquam aliter fuit hic locus in Ecclesia explicatus. ibidem fol. 25. This place was neuer otherwise expounded in the Church. And a­gaine: A temporibus Apostolorum ad haec vsque secula nun­quam illa caruerunt Ecclesiae. From the Apostles times, euen vnto the age wherein we liue, the Church did neuer want auto­ritie of Excommunication. And as at times they are content [Page 329] to accept of the Fathers: so will they also vpon the like occasion; allow of generall Councells. Whereas cer­taine persons in Transiluania beganne to reuiue diuerse old Heresies, about the person of Christ: Maister Beza writeth in this sorte. An non in mentem vobis veniebat amplissimus ille Nicenae &c. Beza Epist. [...] Did you not remember the moste worthy assemblye of Nice, of Ephesus, of Calcedon: quo nihil vn quā sanctius, nihil augustius ab Apostolorum excessu sol vn­quam aspexit? The Sonne it selfe hath neuer beheld, since the Apostles departure out of this world, any thing that was more holy, or more excellent, then those assemblies were. Thus I say both Beza, Cartwright, and the rest of the Disciplinarie humor doe write, both of the auncient Fathers, and of the olde Councels, when they please them in any mat­ter. But otherwise, let anie of them all, naie iointlie al of them together, impugne anie part of the new pretended Discipline, or crosse them there: Oh, they touch the ap­ple of euerie one of their eies, they care not for their au­thorities, they despise their decrees, they cannot endure them: as now it shall be shewed in the next Chapter fol­lowing.

WHen, for the proofe of sundrie matters, im­pugned by them: they are vrged with the testimonies of the auncient Fathers, and of the Ecclesiasticall Histories, they ei­ther shift them off, with their owne false [Page 330] gloses,D. W. or if that serue not their turne, they disgrace them as much as they can and so reiect them. Where Igna­tius ascribeth verie much to a Bishop: as, that nothinge should bee done in the Church without his consent: and saith that hee hath a principality and power ouer all, ascribing vn­to him in that respect the title of Prince of Priestes: they expound the word,T.C. lib: 2. pa. 620. 517. Priestes, to signifie both Ministers of the word and ruling Elders: the saide power ouer all, to extend but onelie to the saide kindes of Priests in one parish:T.C. lib. 1. pa. 113. 110. and the name Prince to meane no more, but as it were a moderator, chosen out of those Ministers, for one meeting onlie, to propound such matters, as were then to be handled, to collect the voices and to moderat that action. Which interpretation is onely framed according to the practise of Geneua, and such great Churches, (as Cartwright tearmeth them) which haue (saith he) diuerse Ministers and ruling Elders in them: [...]Epist. ad Tralli. and is (God knoweth) as far from Ignatius meaning and words, as falshoode is from the trueth. And yet either thus he must speake, or els if you presse them further,T.C. l: 2. p. 622. then they shall well like of, the poore old Father is straight way reiected, as a counter­faite and a vaine man.

It being shewed according to Ireneus wordes:D. W. Ireneus lib. 4. cap. 63. vz. that the Apostles committed the Churches in euery place to the Bishops: and that euerie one of the Apostles seuerally, did ap­point Bishops in those Churches which they had planted, as S. Paul did at Ephesus and Creta: T.C. l. 2. p. 482 Cartwright answereth thus: For the explositiō of Ireneus, T.C. l. 2. p. 155. which interpreteth. They, euery one seuerally: if they seuerally ordained Bishops, euery one in his cir­cuit, so it be vnderstood with the Churches consent, as is before declared, I am well content. Are yee so? Surely it is great ioy of you. And what is before declared? Forsooth [Page 331] Maister Beza in effect saith,Annot. Beza in Act. 14. & 1 Tim. 5. v. 22 1. Tit. that the Apostles did not appoint any Bishops: that is, any Pastor, Doctor, or ruling Elder by their owne authority: but the choise of euery Church-officer be­ing first made by consent of the whole parishe. Then, any Apo­stle that was present, did consecrat the saide partie, so chosen, vn­to the Lorde, by laying his handes vppon him nomine Presbyte­rij, in the name of the Presbyterie. This is then the issue that Ireneus must stande to. Except hee will frame his speach after the newe cutte, euen according to Bezaes pleasure. Cartwright (you see) will not allowe him. If he were now aliue, hee might well thinke scorne to be thus vsed, by either of them both, contrarie to his owne meaning.

Iustinus Martyr, D. W. being brought to witnes for Bishops, and their authoritie in his time, about the yeare 130. (which was some nine yeares after Sainct Iohns death) where he calleth euerie such B. [...] that is, prelate, because the ruling of the Ministerie & people within his circuit appertained chiefly to his charge. Cartwright ter­meth this seeking into the fathers writings, (to find out the historical truth of this cause so much by him impug­ned) a raking in Ditches, T.C. li. 1. p. 114 and laboureth in this sort to rid his handes of him, saying: First, this Prelate, was but as a moderator, to propound matters &c. Secondly, that he was Prelate of the people, not of the Ministers, which is contrarie to his first exception; except he will say the people had then the gouernment of the Churche, a­mongest whom he should be moderator. Which being obserued (as I thinke) by Beza, he alledgeth this place of Iustinus, Bezae anno [...] 1. Tim. 5.19. to prooue Timothy in Ephesino Presbyterio fuis­se [...] id est, Antistes, vt vocat Iustinus, to haue been Prelate in his pretended Eldershippe at Ephesus. Cartwright [Page 332] hath also a thirde aunswere in his second Booke:T.C. l. 2. p. 621 bee it graunted, that Iustinus president had superioritye ouer the Mi­nisters, yet how fondlye is it concluded: that it is lawfull be­cause it was? But his maine Barricado for defence is this: in the daies that Iustine liued, there began to peepe out in the Ministerye, some thinges which went from the sim­plicitye of the Gospell, as that the name of [...] which was common to the Elders with the Ministers of the word, T.C. l. 1. p. 114 was (as it seemeth) appropriated vnto one.

For the proofe of the antiquitie of Bishops,D, W. Ieromes testimonie is brought: that at Alexandria from Saincte Marke the Euangelist, Ierome ad E­uagrium. there was a Bishop placed in a higher de­gree aboue Priestes, as it were a Captaine ouer an Army. A­bout which wordes they busie themselues wonderfully. First (saie they) thinges being ordered then by the suffrages of the Ministers and Elders: T,C▪ l, 1, p. 107, it might (as it falleth out of­tentimes) bee done without the approbation of Sainct Marke, How it falleth out amongest them, it is no great matter. That they should euer agree, were more to bee maruai­led. But to laie such an imputation vppon that church: Sainct Marke himselfe being present, I thinke it a lewd part, and too full of presumption. Besides, Saincte Marke might haue appealed (by their conceites) vnto some Classis, if hee had disliked that ordinaunce. But if this shifte will not serue: then they haue another, that the wordes from Sainct Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shutte out Sainct Marke, and the time wherein he liued, then inclusiuely to shut him in the time wherein this distinctiō rose, Hier, proem. in Matt, Wherein he sheweth his ignorance: for Ierome calleth Saint Marke the Bishop of Alexandria.

In the ende, he vseth this fond quirke. It is to bee ob­serued, that Sain ct Ierome saith it was so in Alexandria, sig­nifying [Page 333] thereby that in other Churches it was not so: and we are rather to follow Ierusalem that kept Christes institution, then Alexandria that departed from it. Haue you seene a Bi [...]de in a lime-bushe? But yet he plungeth, and when all comes to all, if these shiftes shall be thought insuffici­ent, this is the last, both for this point and certain other, of the profite which the Church receaueth by Bishops, &c: corruption groweth in time: T, C, l, 1, p, 103. as the times are, so are men that liue in them: there is not such sinceritye to bee looked for at Ieromes handes in his times, as from others that went be­fore him: besides his other faultes, he might in this matter haue spoken more soundly. And Beza shameth not, to giue him the lie: (in effect) and to deride him. For where Sainct Ierome saith: that when some would needes holde of Paul, some of Apollo, and some of Cephas: it was ordained for the auoidinge of Schisme, totius orbis decreto, by a de­cree of the whole worlde, that one shoulde bee chosen by the Priestes to bee aboue the rest. The iudgem [...]t of the most re­uerend, Epist, ad Ia, Lauson Scoc. That is not so (saith Beza.) And in another place: quod tandem istud decretum, quando & a quibus factum? what decree was this? when and by whom was it made?

It is most apparaunt,D, W, and cannot bee denied, but that Ireneus, Cyprian, Tertullian, Ambrose, Ierome, Au­gustine, and diuerse other auncient writers, doe call Bishops the Apostles successors. In so much as some of them, especially the authors of the Ecclesiasticall Hi­stories, doe drawe long Catalogues of the particular Bishops names, that succeeded the Apostles, and other Apostolical men, whom they made Bishops. Which Ca­talogues and manner of speach of the said fathers, being vsed by them verie fitly against such Heretickes as did rise vp in their daies, haue since in our time, beene great­ly [Page 334] abused by the Papistes. Vnto whome, the learned men, that haue stoode for the trueth against them, by writing,Iuell, Sadeil, de le­git, vocat, mi­ [...]ist, &c, haue continually aunswered: That the fathers arguments drawen from the said personall succession by Bishops were verie effectuall, so long as the succession of the Apostles doctrine did concurre therewithall: and that the fathers in vrging of the first, had euer an especial eie to the second, some point of Doctrine being euer called in question by the saide Heretiques.

And this answere, as it is in it selfe most true, so it hath ben hitherto generally receiued. Yet now another must be sought. For whereas in our daies, the verie calling it selfe of Bishops, is so brought into question, that men are enforced to seek their original: & amongst many reasons for the iustifying of it, do bring the said fathers to testifie in this cause, that the Apostles themselues appointed BB. & that they were generallie accounted in their times to be the apostles successors: Now Cartwright with his crue commeth forth amongst vs, & telleth vs that in all such places where the Fathers and Ecclesiasticall writers doe saie:T, C, l, 2, p. 572, that the Bishops succeede the Apostles, we must vnderstand them, that by Bishops, they mean euery Pastor in his own parishe, whom he affirmeth to be onlie the Apostles BB.T, C, l. 1, p, 63, and that where they call them the successors of the Apostles, that is to bee vnderstood, because they propound the same doctrine that they did. T.C. l, 2, p, 458 In this sence (saith he in another place) I grant it true, that all Bishops, that is Pastors, succeed the Apostles. So as then, the said personall succession is here quite exclu­ded.Part. 1. cont. Turrian, p [...]g 64 And besides, for his other successiō of doctrine, Sa­deil being verie desirous to make the said places of the fa­thers to seem, as though they were greatly to be insisted vpon, sticketh not much to grant, to euery laie man (that [Page 335] feareth God) as great a priuiledge, as Cartwright doth, to his Pastors: callinge them likewise the Apostles Successors, quatenus Apostolorum doctrinam retinent, et Apostilicis vestigiis insistunt: as farre as they holde the A­postles doctrine, and doe walke in their pathes. And thus, wee must expounde the Fathers, euen as the Father of all such Expositions did that of the Psalme;Mat. 4. Angelis su­is mandauit de te: or else they will tell vs, that they were but men: that they speake as the times required wherein they liued: that they writ vntruely, and manye things to like purpose. As if wee were to account no otherwise of them, but as of time-seruers, men-pleasers, deceauers, and ambitious persons.

Though Ierome (being an earnest man for the abating of the Deacons pride at Rome, Ierom ad Nep: Ierom in Esay 60. in preferring of thēselues before the order of Priestes, whereof hee himselfe was one,Ier. ad Euagr. Ier. ad Marco.) doth speake as much as he could deuise to suppres their insolencies, and to aduance his own orders: as that Priests were once called Bishops &c. yet he was content in o­ther places, and vppon other occasions, to confesse that Bishops are in respect of Priests: as Aaron was in respect of his sonnes: that Esay did foretel that Bishops should be chiefe go­uernours of the church: that the Priest was contayned in the name of Bishop 1. Tim. 3. as the lesse in the greater: that Bishops did holde the places of the Apostles: and euen in the verie heate of his said disputations against Deacons, hee willingly and expresselye graunteth to Bishops one great prerogatiue, vz. the ordination of Priestes, which did not belong to his order.

Now it is not vnknowen, what aduantage is taken a­gainst all Ieromes words; which may be with any shew of [Page 336] trueth vrged against Bishops. And it will not be admit­ted of, in this case, which in some other, the best of them are enforced to admit vz. that such his wordes, were vt­tered in heate of disputation: and not dogmaticè. But whatsoeuer hee hath written in anye place either in his commentaries vpon the scripture, or in his letters, when he had laid aside the person of a partie, that had interest, and stoode not vppon euerie thing that might giue anie aduantage, as the māner is in disputation: all I saie what­soeuer, it must yeald and stoope to that which maie in a­ny sorte impaire the credit of Bishops, or else, woe be to poore Ierome, Doet. Iesuit. Tom. 4▪ p. 525. hee writeth contraries, and I wot not what. And there is one, that hath sent vs worde in his booke from Rochell: that he knoweth a knacke, how Ierome may be expounded, that hee shall not leaue to the Bishops, so much as ordination. Where we reade in Ierome: Quid facit excepta ordinatione Episcopus quod non facit Presbyter? What doth a Bishop, excepting ordinatiō, that a priest doth not? Now saith this fellow: vide candide Lector, num legendum sit, accepta ordinatione: vt sensus sit: ille qui ordinatus est a com­presbyteris Episcopus, nihil facit, quod presbyter non facit. Ob­serue gentle reader whether wee may not reade, hauing receiued ordination; that the sense may be: He that is ordayned of his fellow-Elders a Bishop, doth nothing that a priest maye not doe. Which is too too childish.

To prooue the antiquitie and lawfulnes,D.W. of the name of an Archbishop, there being alledged the authorities of Clement, Anacletus, Anicetus, Epiphanius, Ambrose, & Sozomenus: and thereuppon a conclusion inferred, with a saying of Augustines; that seing the name is so auncient and that the originall thereof is not founde: it should seeme to haue come from the Apostles: They tearme [Page 337] the bringing-in of these authorities the T:C. lib. 2. pa 513. mouing & sum­moning of Hell: they saye those tymes T.C. lib. 2. p. 5 111. were not pure and virgine-like, but departed from the Apostolicall simplicitie, and doe treade them all vnder theyr feete, with as great facilitie as may be. T.C. lib. 1. pa 88. Clement, Anacletus, and Ani­cetus are discharged for rogues, and men branded in the foreheads. T:C. lib 2: pa. 493. Epiphanius, wrote according to the time he liued in about 380. and though the name of Archbishop was in his time amongst Grecians, T.C lib 2 pag 494. yet it followeth not thereby that it was in vse amongst the Latines. For Ambrose, when Cartwright writte his first Booke, and that they were not so throughlie angred, as now they are, hee onely gaue him this brande. TC. l. 1. p. 94 Ambrose holdeth other thinges corruptlye: and then hee expoundeth him, that of like­lyhoode the Archbishop hee speaketh of, was no other then he, which for the time ruled the action, when Bishops were or­dayned: and after the action ended hadde no more authoritie then the rest. But since his choller increasing, first hee beganne (as he sayth) in his second booke to T.C. lib. 2. p. 491. suspect the place alledged out of his booke de dignitate Sacerdotum to be corrupted, whereuppon within a short time after he grew to bee so hardened against him by finding some other things also in the saide booke which hee misliked: that he hath bored him in the eare for a Roge likewise, and sent him a rouing amongst his fellowes, making the au­thor of that booke a false Ambrose, which is an vnlearned shift. T.C. li. 1. p. 93 Sozomenus and Volusianus, they writt not according to that which was, but according to the custome and manner of the age wherein they wrotte. As though he should saye, they lied. And as touching T.C. li. 1. p: 9 [...] Augustine, his sentence is appro­ued (say they) vnaduisedly, and that thereby a windowe is open, to bring in all poperie. Which is a lewde reproch.

[Page 338]For the antiquitie of the name of Archdeacon,pag. 144 are alledged by D.W. the testimonies of Damasus, Ierome, Sixtus, Sozemene, & Socrates. To whose authorities, their answere is:T. C. lib. 2. pag. 502.303. two of them are counterfeits: Damasus spake in the Dragons voice: Amongst men, the best ground beareth thi­stles: those times were corrupt. And yet Sixtus liued Bishop of Rome, about the yeare 265. and was a godly martyr.

A number of authorities, being cited: which affirme that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus, as Eusebius, Dorothe­us, Nicephorus, Ierome, Isidorus, Dionysius Areopagita, Epiphanius, Ambrose, Chrisostome, Oecumenius, Theodoret, &c. Their aunswere is.T.C. li. 2. p. 313 They esteeme him a Bishop indeed and not an E­uangelist. But what then? if they were for one a hundred, they cannot counteruayle, much lesse beare downe the testimony of the Apostle. As though they euer purposed anye such mat­ter. But it goeth hard, when for a matter of historie, all these worthie Fathers, can find no better credit. If Timo­thy were Bishop of Ephesus, D.W. I trust he will not say that the Apostle is ouerborne. And that he was Bishop, all these affirme it, who liuing neerer to the Apostles times, shold know aswell as Cartwright, what was in fact then: and be­ing both as religious and as learned as he wold pretend to be, could as easily haue espied, what repugnāces there was betwixt that practise, and the Apostles writings; and would as earnestly haue reprooued it, if there had beene any, as hee.

Sainct Ciprian and Sainct Ierome are of opinion, nay S. Ierome saith, it was the opinion and the iudgement of the whole catholicke Church: (for so I interprete his words the whole worlde) that for the auoyding of schismes and heresies, it was necessarie that there should be one Bishop in euery Diocese (as our learned writers haue thought of those places, [Page 339] writing against the Papists) to gouerne and ouer-rule the rest of the Priestes within their charge, least otherwise (as by experience it was found amongst the Corinthians,) there would be in short time as many schismes & altars, as there were priests and heades; and that euery one might not carry his schol­lers after him, and so following their own fancies teare in pieces the Church of Christ. With them in like manner all the godly generall Councels since that time haue agreed, & finding daily new mischiefs to arise, which were not be­fore hatched, haue for the meeting with them, increased accordinglye the authoritie of Bishops: and so kept the church in good order at the least for aboue fiue hundred yeares. Since which time, although the Pope with ex­treme iniurie to all other Bishops, hath lifted himselfe by a false title, aboue not only thē, but aboue al kings, & Emperors in like manner, neuer ceasing till he hath set him­selfe in the seate of the beast: yet with many other points of Christianitie, this also hath beene preserued, that the gouernment of the church by Bishops, in euery Kingdome, pro­uince, and Dioces, is Apostolical: and not only in that respect to be for euer continued, but necessary also in regarde of the causes before mentioned. But now all this is recko­ned nothing. There are some two or three; that do take vpon them to prooue (forsooth) that all the said FathersT.C. lib. 2. pag. 641. [...]82, 492. 447. &c. of the primatiue Church, all Councells, and all whosoe­uer that haue liked that ordinaunce,Beza in his re­uerend iudge­ment. haue been deceaued in their iudgements: in that they haue accounted the in­stitution of Bishops, & their gouernment, to be a means for the auoiding of schismes, or for the maintenaunce of the peace of the Church. But how they prooue it, I will not stand now vppon that poynt. It is forsooth in a worde: by discourse of reason (whereof Cartwright, [Page 340] braggeth) and for that (as they saie) there were great con­trouersies in the church notwithstanding their institution &c. And now it is their Eldership, must weare the Crowne, and reforme all that is amisse. Well what wee are to thinke of their Elderships; we partly haue seene, and yet shall heare more, before I haue done. In the meane time, it is euident how they oppose their owne iudgement, to all the world since Christs time.

Cyrillus, for calling the Bishop [...] high priest (as Ignatius hadde done in effect before;Tert. de baptis. the prince or chiefe of priests: and Tertullian also, Episcopus est summus Sacerdos, the Bishop is the high priest) is wonderfully censured. Hee that bringeth in a priest into the church (saith Cartwright) go­eth about to burye our Sauiour Christ. T.C. lib. 1. pag. 114. And as for him that bringeth in an high priest into the church, hee goeth about to put our Sauiour Christ out of his office. This that he affirmeth here, toucheth not only Cyrill; but the most (I am sure) of all the auncient Fathers: who were as carefull, for the office and prerogatiue of Christ, and haue written, as manye notable woorkes against such Hereticks, as haue impugned his Soueraigntie in any respect; as euer he or his Sectaries haue written, or I thinke will doe. But his breath, maye well blast himselfe: they, I doubt not, are in heauen, and it cannot touch them. Wee vppon earth are to honor theyr memories: and (for all proude and wicked censure) are to learne from them, that such names not being giuen to anie mi­nister in respect of anye office peculiarlie belonging to Christ, may lawfullie bee retayned in the Church of God.

D.W.Whereas to approoue the lawfull vse of some holy­daies, allowed and appointed to bee kept in the Church [Page 341] of Englande: amongst diuerse reasons this is one, the continuance of them in the times of Ignatius, Tertullian, Ci­prian, Ierome, Augustine, and sondrie others, together with theyr good lyking and approbation of them: T.C. l. 1. p. 154 They complaine: that trueth is measured by the crooked yarde of time: and therefore doe appeale from these Ex­amples vnto the Scriptures and to the Apostles times. As though the saide auncient Fathers, & the churches in their times: had not knowen the scriptures aswell as he or his Sectaries, and that (notwithstanding the fourth commaundement) it was lawfull, for the church to appoint, & obserue such daies, which, vpon that only ground, & contrarie to the practise of the whole church, since the Apostles times; he vtterly denieth to be lawful: induced therunto (no doubt) because Geneua hath aboli­shed thē, vz. Christmas-day, Easter-day, Ascention-day, Whit­sontide, with all the rest. A fact that in the time of the anci­ent fathers, would surely haue beene accounted a tricke of Paganisme.

Iustinus,D.W:Irenaeus, Tertullian, Ciprian, Ambrose, Ierome, Ba­sile, Augustine, Socrates, Sozimene, the Counsell of Auricanum, of Neocaesaria, of Nice, of Gangrene, & of Orleaunce, being ci­ted, to prooue the churches authoritie in things of indif­ferencie, and for the obseruation of many thinges accor­dingly not mentioned in the scriptures:T: C. lib. 1. pag 29.32. Cartwright, first complaineth,T. C. lib. 2. pag 87. &c. that he is so pestred with such kinde of authori­ties in steed of Esay, Ieremy, S. Paule, & S. Peter: and then he shaketh thē off altogether, because the things which they af­firm are now called into questiō, vz. by him & his fellows. So as whē it pleaseth thē to call any thing into questiō that all the fathers held, away they must, there is no remedie.

Cirill affirming, that the lawe of Moses for punishing a­dulterie [Page 342] by death,T.C. l. 2. p. 105 is not now in force: Cartwright answe­reth:T.C. l. 2. p. 107 as for Cirill, I can at no hande allow his opinion: his sen­tence is corrupt. Chrisostome & Oecumenius doe vnderstand the place of Timothy, for the imposition of handes there mentioned, of Bishops not of Priests. Cartwright therun­to saith:D: W. pa: 199. I aunswere at once, that it seemeth violent.T.C. l: 2: p: 269.Eusebi [...]s giuing Iosephus this great commendation, that hee was Historicorum qui sunt apud Iudeos facilè Princeps, the princi­pall man amongst the Iewes for a writer of histories: Maister Beza disgraceth him in this sort, in his oration, when he was first chosen to be Rector of the Schoole at Geneua: Io­sephum &c. I doe reckon Iosephus not onelye amongst the pro­phane, but also in the number of ridiculous and foolish writ­ters. And whereas Origene, Chrisostome, the Creeke scho­liast, Theodoret, Theophilact, Ambrose, and Ierome, doe ex­pounde Rom. 12.8. He that distributeth, let him doe it with simplicitie: not of Deacons, that giue other mens almes, but of all christians generally, such as do giue almes thé­selues:T.C. lib: 3, pag: 89.90. Cartwright disliking this exposition, determineth of them after this sort: They often strayne the text to drawe them to the present vse of theyr churches: by reason whereof in steed of milke they somtimes draw blood. He measureth the Fathers,D.W. by his own falsehood.

When they are told, that the auncient histories are a­gainst thē, concerning a point by them denied, about the chosing of BB. in Ciprians time: they confesse it, that they are so indeed: and thus they auoyd them: that ex­cept it can be shewed out of some ecclesiasticall history of like aun­cientie with Ciprian;T.C. l: 2.534. it is nothing. By which one blowe, all the ecclesiasticall histories (that are now extant of name) since Christs time (so far as I do presentlie remember ex­cept it be Philo Iudeus) are quight cut off, as insufficient [Page 343] witnesses of any thing, before their own times: that is of any thing, for the space of 300▪ yeares at the least after Christ. There were Ecclesiasticall writers before, as it may appeare in diuerse places of Eusebius: out of whom both he and others after him, borrowed much: but now they are lost, and we haue them not.

Where it was saide in the behalfe of the auncient Fa­thers,D.VV. and generall Councelles, for the first 500. yeares (being charged with corruption, and I wotte not with what building & working to make a way for Antichrist &c) that they laboured to keepe out Antichrist &c, they aunswere:T.C. lib. 2. pa. 507.508. the Fathers imagined fondly of Antichrist: they dealt like ignoraunt men: they were ouer-mastered of their af­fections: they had many errors &c. And all this is spoken by a man much more fond, ignoraunt, affectionate, and erroneous, (as I am perswaded) then they were.

But yet heare the man and his maister a little further.T, C, l, 1. p. 97. It is a daungerous thing to ground our order or pollicy of the Church vppon men. Again: Although the louuer of this An­tichristian building was not then sette vp: yet the foundation thereof being secretely laide in the Apostles times, Ibidem, you might ea­sily know that in those times, the building was wonderfully ad­uaunced and growen verie high. And Beza also: The Fa­thers, The iudgem [...]t of the most reuerend, in the Councell of Nice, vnderlaide the seate of the Har­lot, that sitteth vppon seauen mountaines. Againe Maister Cartwright: T, C, l, 2, p. 511. Those times were not pure, nor virgin-like: the Churches were then much departed from the singlenes, wherein the Apostles had left them. Lastlie: Examples cannot be with­out great daunger set from those times. And thus all, but Cal­uin, pag. 11. Beza, and himselfe are men: there is no good buil­ding but their owne, nor anie purity to be found, but in them, their fauourers, their deuises and platformes.

[Page 344]It is alleadged out of Theodoret, that Sainct Chrisostom, being Bishop of Constantinople, had the care not onely of that Church, [...]. W. p. 412.413. but of the Churches also in Thracia, in Asia, and in Pontus: and out of Sozemenus, that he depo­sed thirteen Bishops for Simonie in selling of benefices. Vnto which testimonies they aunswere: First, that this care was no other then such, as euery godly Minister ought to haue ouer all the Churches in Christendome. For example, as Beza hath of the Churches in Fraunce: and so Chrisostom was Bishop onely in the Church of Constantinople, and hadde an eie and care to those other Churches. Which aunswere pro­ceedeth from grosse ignorance or malice. Secondlye, that if Chrisostome had charge ouer all those Churches, he had as large a dominion as euer the Pope had.T.C. l. 2: p. 524, 525, 526, Wherein also he sheweth his grosse ignorance in taking Asia there, for the third part of the world. Thirdly, that, if he hadde any such authority, he was guilty of the breach of many Canons and Councels. Fourthly, that he could saie, he was a prowde man. Fifthlie, that it might be aunswered: that Chrisostom deposed the said Bishops, not by his authority, but by his counsail. Sixtly, that it was Pope-like and vnlawfull to put in and put out, of his absolute authority: and lastly, that it is dangerous to builde vppon the examples of those times. And thus as a man in a maze, he goeth backeward and foreward, fin­ding nothing to rest vppon, but his own meere vngod­ly and slaunderous surmises. A fit guide he is, for giddie heads to follow.

Whereas for the antiquitye of Archbishops,D, W, the first generall councell that was after the Apostles times, vz. the Councell of Nice, is alledged in these words. Let the auncient custome be kept throughout Egipt, Libia and Pentapo­lis, that the Bishop of Alexandria may haue the gouernment of [Page 345] all these &c. T.C. l. 2, p, 562. First, (saie they) nothing was graunted by those words to the Bishop of Alexandria, but onely to sit in the highest place at meetings: which is most direct against the tenor of that Canon, and is but a sottish shift, groun­ded especiallie vppon this, that Beza in his annotations vppon Iohn 1. doth expound this word [...](which the Councell vseth) to signifie dignitie or prerogatiue. And secondly where it is said: let the auncient custome pre­uaile.T, C, l. 2, p. 484 The Bishops (saith Cartwright) comparing that decree with others made at that time, and not before, called that an an­cient custome. As if Ministers being assembled together, to speak of a matter continued a score of Prouinciall Synodes, and holden in the space of ten yeares, should say in this sorte: in suche and such thinges we will keepe our old custome. Which they them­selues, might saie as well if they list, concerning their ba­stardly Discipline, that secretlie and seditiouslie eight or nine yeares since, they haue agreed vppon (after their fashion like dogges and cats) in manie of their assem­blies. But if either he, or anie other of the said Ministers should so saie, they should certainelie in mine opinion speake verie foolishly and verie ignorauntlie. And whe­ther it is likelie, that all the auncient Fathers, assembled in that Councell, would vse such a Sophistication in one of their Canons; that iudge you: or whether there was euer anie man before Cartwright, so presumptuous­lie impudent, as to expound their words in this sort, that I leaue to himselfe and his followers to consider of, at their leasure.

But the Councell must speake according to his plea­sure: or otherwise marke how he commeth ouer it. First he gibeth at these titles, which are giuen vnto it, to bee a notable and famous Councell:T, C, l, 1, pa, 93, secondlie, he taketh vppon [Page 346] him, to proue, that the said Canon was not a good de­cree: because as he saith, some other decrees then made, are not sound: thirdly, (allowing the decision that was giuen by that Councell, of the difference touching the perfect vnity of substance in Trinity.) For the rest he saith thus: the most of the errors agreed vpon in that Councell were in the Discipline. The most Belike there were some then in the Doctrine. Those which he hath named for such great errors, were not agreed vpon as matters of doctrine, to my vnderstan­ding, but were orders thoght meet in those daies for the pollicie of the Church. I omit what reckning hath bin e­uer made of this Councell, by al other Councels and fa­thers since that time.Instit. lib, 4, ca▪ [...], Sect, 750, Caluin is content to embrace the first foure generall Councels, quantúm attinet ad fidei doc­trinam, so farre as they haue dealt with the doctrine of faith: thogh Cartwright in the height of his pride do challenge the doctrine. But euery man now will allow, and disalow what he list. The Arrians wil say as much of the doctrine, as either Caluin or Cartwright do say of the discipline. And so euerie Schismatick or Heretick: look what serues their turne, that is holie: what they dislike; that is erroneus.

About the choosing of Ministers much hath bin pre­tended for the peoples interest. Against which conceit for the necessity of it: amgst manie reasons prop oūded, the Councell of Laodicea hath beene alledged: where it was decreed about the yeare 338. that it ought not to bee permitted vnto the multitude to make election of them, Instit, lib. 4, c, 4, Sect, 12, which should be preferred to the ministerie. M. Caluin doth greatly allow of this canon, which sheweth his liking of the peo­ples restraint: and he affirmeth a sense vnto it, as though that Coūcell had purposed to haue squared out the same platform for the erecting of Ministers, that he hath deui­sed [Page 347] and established in Geneua. Read the lawes of Geneua about the making of Ministers, and you shall finde them whollie to agree with his words in this place. Now if we can be content to receaue this exposition,T, C, l, 1, p. 53, which Cart­wright maketh (being the verie marrow of Maister Cal­uins) vz.T.C. l. [...]. p. 256 the Canon meant not to haue the people secluded from the election, but tendeth only to the directing of thē by the fore­iudgement of the Elders: he will bee content to let it passe without more adoe. Otherwise notwithstanding Caluins commendation of it, he can tell vs (but vntrulie & with­out anie warrant) that this Canon is suspected, whether it be a Bastard or no: and that manie Councels are against it.

Maister Caluin confesseth, that before the Councel of Nice, there were first BB, placed in their dioces aboue the Ministers: then Archbishops ouer Bishops: and lastlie in the saide Nicene Councell, that there were Patriarchs ap­pointed ouer Archbishops. Now whereas the Councell of Antioch about some 15. yeares after saith: It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrey to know their Metropolitane Bishop, to haue care ouer the whole prouince: propter quod, for which cause all such as haue any busines, must come to their Metropolitan ci­ty: wherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in ho­nor, and that the other Bishops do nothing without him, accor­ding to the ancient rule prescribed by our forefathers, but those things only which pertaine to his own Dioces. Cartwright deli­uereth vs these gloses vpon it:T.C l. 1. p. 93. A Metropolitan Bishop (saith he) was nothing else but a Bishop of that place, which was the chiefe citty of the Dioces or shire: and as for the name, it maketh no more difference betwixt Bishop and Bishop, T.C. l. 2, p, 556 then when I say a Minister of London, and a Minister of Newington. Secondly. there is no mentiō here that BB. are subiect to the Metropolitan. Thirdly, for the honor they should giue him, I haue shewed it out [Page 348] of the Councel of Nice. T, C, l, 2, p, 622, Fourthly, the care for other Churches is but such, as euery good Minister should haue of al churches. Fift­lie, the word Dioces should be parish. For the Councell did not mean that the Bishops mentioned had Diocesses:T.C l. 2. p. 565.but euery one of them one town only, hauing belonging vnto it certaine villages, which did resort vnto his church, as in Hitchin and diuers other places with vs. He should haue said Geneua, but all this hee affirmeth most absurdly. Besides, this is his ordinary pra­ctise, that because the word vsed amongest the Greeke writers ordinarily for a dioces, doth likewise also signifie a parish: he euer, to falsifie such authors as are brought a­gainst him, doth trāslate for dioces, parish, as in this place he doth it with a most brasen forehead. The councell of Nice, of Antioch, of Carthage, and of Sardis, directly pro­uing that Bishops only had authority to excommunicate:T, C, l. 3, p, 91, Cartwright giueth no other answere vnto them but this: that Maister Caluin saith: how Bishops in excommunicating after that manner dealt therein ambitiously.

Athanasius saith: that Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria, had the Churches of Pentapolis committed to his care: Cartwright saith,T, C, l, 2. p, 622, that care importeth not iurisdiction: and so as to the Councell of Nice and of Antioch. Cyprian saith, the cause of heresies and schismes is this: that Priests wil not obey their BB. Cartwright that answereth. that is iu effect, if his vnpreaching Aldermen will not obay their Pastors.Epiph. li, 2: To. [...]. heres, 6 [...]. Epiphanius speaking of one Peter a Bishop of A­lexandria, saith: this is the custome, that the Bishop of A­lexandria should haue the Ecclesiastiasticall gouernment of all Egipt, Thebais, Mariota, Libia, Ammonica, Mariotes, & Pentapolis: Whereupon Cartwright gloseth thus: that is, besides his own church,T.C. l. 2. p. 56 [...]he procured the good of other churches, roūd about him. [...]piph. here. 69 Again, Epiphanius of one Miletus an Arch­bishop, [Page 349] that he was subiect or vnder the said Peter Arch­bishop of Alexandria. Cartwright saith, that euery Bishop of name was called an Archbishop. T: C. l. 1. p. 560. And where it is said Mi­letus was vnder Peter: that is, vnder him in honour, and not subiect vnto him, saith Cartwright: contrary to the manifest words and meaning of the author. Theodoret Bishop of Cyprus saith of himself, that he had the gouernment ouer 800. Churches: Cartwright saith in effect, that he lied: that his words cōcerning his care in gouerning those churches, being spoken of himselfe want not suspition, and that hee was condem­ned for writing against Cirill: neuer mentioning how hee was wrongfully condemned in his absence, and afterward restored.

I omit a number of their other shifts and presumptu­ous dealings with the fathers.T. C. li. 1. p. 113 T. C. li. 1. p. 41 As of Epiphanius: For him it is knowen of what authority he is, &c. it were better to laie his words against Aerius,T: C. l. 2. p. 528,vpon some counterfaite and false Epipha­nius to spare his credit. Likewise of Ambrose: Many errors & corrupt expositions are found in his works: in his exposition vp­on the place to the Philippians, a child may see, how violently he forceth the Text. And also their reiecting of Councels by heaps, &c. wher they haue no coulor, how they may per­uert them. But yet I may not let this escape my fingars, that Cartwright, whether for his owne glory, or else that God would haue him to be the instrument of his owne shame, is well content, rather then he will want testimo­nies, to encounter with the authority of Bishops: to sort both himselfe & all his followers, in the number of those that euer since the Apostles times haue repined at that authority: & thereupon haue beene ouerruled by all the auncient F [...]thers and Councels, as busie bodies & Schis­maticks. You shall heare his wordes, and then iudge [Page 350] whether I haue mistaken them.T. C. l. 2. p. 580 To what ende both in the Nicene councell, and in many other holden more then two hundred yeares after, are there found so manie canons, for the acknowledging of the authority of one Metropolitane in e­uery Province, for the honor which he should haue: the name he should be called by: for the place where hee should sit at their meetings: for the bounds of their circuit? Doe not all these de­clare, that there were some which were ennemies to that autho­ritye, &c. To this I might adde his defence to Aerius, and his confutation of Epiphanius: not without some dis­credit to Sainct Augustine.

Lastlie, whatsoeuer is saide, or may be said hereafter, out of all the auncient Fathers and Histories, and out of all the generall Councels, concerning the saide gouern­ment of the Church, by Bishops, Archbishops, and Pa­triarches, of their institution, authority, title, circuites, and prerogatiues: Cartwright doth take vpon him (most boldlie & most falsly) to prescribe vnto vs, certain rules, how we must vnderstād them, or otherwise there is not one of them that will be allowed of. I blush in his be­halfe (I assure you) to sette it downe, and am ashamed that anie man bearing the name of a Christian, shoulde deale so like an Impostor. But this it is▪ That it maye ap­peare (saith he) what the Fathers and Councelles doe mean, when they giue more to the Bishop of anye one churche, then to the Elder of the same church,T. C. lib. 1. pag, 19.110.and that no man bee decea­ued by the name of Gouernour or ruler ouer the rest, to fancy a­ny such authority and domination or Lordship, as wee see vsed in our church: it is to bee vnderstoode, that amongest the Pa­stors, Elders, and Deacons of euery particular church, and in the meetings and companies of the Ministers, or Elders of diuerse [Page 351] churches, there was one chosen by the voyces & suffrages of them al, or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled: whether they were difficulties to be soluted, or punish­ments & censures to be decreed vppon those that had faulted, or whether there were elections to be made, or what other matter so euer occasion was giuen to intreate off: the which also gathered the voyces & reasons of those which had interest to speake in such causes, which also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces which were giuen, which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish, or to comfort, or to rebuke sharply such as were to re­ceaue admonishment, consolation, or rebuke, & which in a worde did moderate that whole action which was done for that time they were assembled &c. And must we thus vnderstande the Fathers & generall Councels? Hee might as truely saie: that the present forme of our ecclesiasticall gouern­ment in England vnder her maiestie by Archbishops and Bishops; is euen the very same māner of church-gouern­ment, that he & his followers looke for, & the right plat­form of those Elderships which haue so mightely bewit­ched them.

Men, that once haue passed the limits of modestie; may afterwards saie & write, what they list. The ancient Fathers, haue deserued farre otherwise of the Church of Christ, then that, for the maintenaunce of such a forgery, as the pretended form of discipline is; they shold be vsed after any such manner. I would wish all men, that are of this proud, & presumptuous humor, to peruse the books which S Augustine hath written against Iulianus the Pela­gian. There they shall find the very same contemptuous spirit in Iulianus, that raigneth in thēselues, & exalteth it selfe so greatly against the godly & learned fathers: as also on the other side, they shall there see, the fruites of Gods [Page 352] spirit: vz. in what reuerend account, & verie high estima­tion S. Augustine had such worthy & holy men by name, as here you haue heard very contumeliously disgraced,August. contra Pelag. L. 2. c. 4. childishly neglected, disdaynfully contemned, and most proudlie reiected. Ita intellexit Ambrosius, ita Cyprianus, ita Gregorius &c. So Ambrose vnderstood (such a place of the scriptures): So Cyprian, so Gregory, &c. did carry some weight in S. Augustines opinion. Those things which diuerse no­table men, haue alledged out of the auncient Fathers, for the iustification of the present ecclesiasticall gouernment in the church of England; ought not so lightly to bee re­garded with euery princox. What the Fathers haue written that agreeth not with our Phantasticall giddye headed fellowes pleasures, they write it not of parciality, either to grieue them, or to gratifie vs: but as trueth led thē. Quod inuenerunt in ecclesia, tenerūt: quod didicerūt, docue­rūt:Ibidem ca: 10.quod a patribus acceperunt, hoc filiis tradiderūt: that which they found in the church (saith Augustine) they held: that which they had learned, they taught: that which they had receaued of theyr fathers, they deliuered to theyr children.

Though Cartwright & his companie do carrie so base a conceit of those times, wherein the auncient fathers li­ued: yet the Fathers themselues did not so thinke of thē. Iulianus the heriticke did speake (as it seemeth) insuch a scornfull sorte of thē, as our Sectaries do. But S. Augustine laieth it to his reproch, as an apparant argument of his great folly & presumptiō:Ibidem cap. 10 thinking it a most absurd point for him so to vse them. Vsque adeò permiscuit imis summa longus dies &c. hath time so confounded all things (saith Augu­stine)? is darknes growen to bee such light, and is light it selfe turned into such darknes, vt videant Pelagius, Celestinus, Iu­lianus, et caeci sunt Hilarius, Cpyrianus, Ambrosius? that Pela­gius, [Page 353] Celestin [...]s, and Iulianus can see, and Hilary, Cyprian, and Ambrose are become blind? And surely I do not perceaue, why I may not without offence, applie the same wordes to those men in these daies, which treade in the saide fel­lowes steppes, concerning this their contempt & pride. Were there neuer learned men; before you were taught the principles of the Geneua discipline? was wisdom dead till you were borne? Doe you know what was in the A­postles times, better then they did, who succeeded the Apostles? were the auncient Fathers able to defende the greatest misteries of our saluation, against so many pesti­lent heretiques, and were they ignorant in the matters of the externall gouernment of the church? Knew they the distinction of the three persons in the blessed Trinitie, & could they not find what difference Christ allowed off, to be continued in his Church, betwixt a Bishop and a priest? Is the darknes which pride carieth with it, growē to be so light: and is the light that shewed it selfe so many waies in the ancient fathers (as in their singular learning & great humilitie) become such darknes; that Cartwright, Trauerse, Fenner, and such like, (but the shadows of learn­ed men in respect) should be thought so clearly sighted? & shall Ireneus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose, Hierome, Chry­sostome, Augustine, Gregory, Hilarye, and all the rest of those worthie men be reckoned blind? Surely he is a bussard that thinketh so. And therefore I will cōclude this chapter with another saying of S. Augustines, against such busie in­nouators, as you are: oportet vt populi christiani vestris pro­phanis nouitatibus anteponant &c. Ibidem cap. 1 It is meet that all christian people should preferre the auncient fathers, before your nouelties, eisque potius adherere quàm vobis: & rather sticke fast to their iudgements, then to runne after your phansies.

THis is a grounde layde downe by Cart­wright: T.C. lib. 1. p. 7. that few men that are of any stayde or sounder iudgement in the scriptures, and haue seene or read of the gouernment and or­der of other churches, are against them in such matters, as they haue broched vnto vs. And agreablie to this ground his answeres are fra­med, when any thing is vrged against him, out of anie of the new writers, except Caluin, and BeZa. If either of them do happen to crosse him: it is strange to see how he dou­bleth & shifteth. As for any other, they are but a puffe with him: hee careth not greatly howe hee handleth them.

D.W. Pellicane, Bucer, Bullinger, Illyricus, and Musculus, affirming with all the auncient Fathers, that Timothye was Bishop of Ephesus: what then (sayth Cartwright) If they were for one, a hundred, they could not beare downe the Apostle. T.C. li. 2. p. 313 T.C. li. 2. p, 114 As though they hadde euer ment it. Lu­ther expoundinge a place of Zacharie contrarie to his liking: his exposition (sayth Cartwright) is out of sea­son. Musculus affirmeth that the places 20. of Sainct Mathew, 10. of sainct Marke, and 22. of sainct Luke: vos autem non sic: doe not condemne Superioritie, but an ambitious desire, and tyrannicall vsage of it: but Caluin as learned as hee (sayth Cartwright) is of my iudge­ment.T.C. li. 1. pa. 23Bucer, holdeth that the sayde 20. of Mathew doth propound a generall rule to all magistrats and christians. [Page 355] Where Cartwrights extenuating the authoritie of man,T.C lib 2 [...] pag. 423. braueth out Bucer with this: that his iudgment hath coun­terpoise of other as learned.

Whereas, Peter Martyr, Bullinger, and Gualter, do bring diuerse reasons for the lawfull vse of the surplise, and such other apparrell, as is appointed with vs for Ministers: Cart­wright is so farre from being moued with their authori­tie,T.C. lib. 1. p. 74 as that he aduentureth to confute their said reasons af­ter his manner, very sophistically: affirming in effect (but falsely) that either they vnderstoode not auncient fathers, alleadged by them for that purpose: or that they peruerted their meaning. Bishop Ridly, and Maister Bucer, approo­uing that where there are no preachers, there should bee godly learned homilies read in those Churches: Cart­wright thus dismisseth Bishop Ridley: being a partie in this cause, T:C. lib. 2. pag. 392. hee ought to be no witnesse. And for Maister Bucers wordes, he saith, they are not to be weighed: insinuating that his booke concerning his iudgement in king Edwardes daies vppon the communion booke is counterfeited.T.C. lib. 1. pa. A­gaine, of maister Bucer for his allowing of priuate baptisme, and of the signe of the Crosse: likewise of the ring in marriage, and that the parties married should receiue the communion: he saith, Bucer hath other grosse absurdities: T.C. lib. 1. pa. to this authoritie I could oppose other men of as great autho­ritie: sometimes Homer sleepeth: his reasons are verie ridi­culous, T C. lib. 1. pag. 199. verie slender and colde, and sauour not of the learning and sharpnesse of the iudgement of maister Bucer.

Maister Fox in like sorte setting downe his full appro­bation,To. 1 pag. 20. of the present state ecclesiasticall: that Arch­bishops should be in degree aboue Bishops, and Bishops in degree aboue other Ministers: and relying for this his iudgement partly vpon the scriptures, and partly vppon [Page 356] the primatiue Church: and concluding, that this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church, accor­ding to the true nature and definition of order by the au­thoritie of Augustine:T.C. lib. 1. pag. 117. he is (I say) thus censured: Mai­ster Fox writing a storie, doth take greater paine, and looketh more diligently to declare what is done, and in what time, and by whome, then howe iustly or vniustly, how conueniently or in­conueniently it is done, &c.

Bishop Iewell (a man to bee accompted of, as his name doth importe, and so esteemed not onely heere in Eng­land, but with all the learned men beyond the seas, that e­uer knewe him or sawe his writinges,) vppon occasion offered to shewe his opinion, concerning one of Cart­wrightes propositions: vz: that both the names, and the offi­ces of Archbishops and Archdeacons, are to be abolished,) he presumed (forsooth) vpon the base authoritie of all anti­quitie, the auncient fathers, the generall Councels, and ecclesiasticall histories, to call it in the margent of his aun­swere, nouitiorum assertio, a newe assertion, or an assertion of yonglinges: and in the end, after hee hath briefly surueied the strength of Cartwrightes great bulwarke, hee conclu­deth in this sort.

As for these reasons, in my iudgement, they are not made to builde vp, and they are too weake to pull downe, &c. stultitia nata est in corde pueri, & virga disciplinae fugabit eam: It is but wantonnesse, correction will helpe it. Whereupon in­commeth Cartwright, as hote as a toste, and skorning, (ye may be sure) to haue such a mayne Article of the new beliefe to be tearmed, nouitiorum assertio, hee calleth these wordes,T.C lib 1. pag. 118. biting and sharpe: and for his further entrance to confute the Bishops reasons, why hee misliked the sayd proposition, he nayleth as it were vpon his toombe, [Page 357] this shamefull, and moste slaunderous inscription: Bishop Iewell calleth the doctrine of the Gospell wantonnesse. Marke the mans forehead: howe it is hardened. The Papist that saide hee recanted all his writinges against the Pope: was not more impudent. Hee calleth their riotous ope­ning of their mouthes against those thinges they either knowe not, or which otherwise they depraue moste maliciously agaynst their own consciences, (as it is to be feared,) hee calleth (I say) these and suche like dea­linges wantonnesse: and not the doctrine of the Gos­pell.

Generally thus he writeth of those most learned men, and manie of them godly Martirs, who were the chiefe penners and approouers of the communion booke, in king Edwardes time, and offered to defend euerie point of it in Queene Maryes dayes, against all the Papistes li­uing: their knowledge (saith Cartwright) was in part, and although they brought manie thinges to our light, T.C. lib. 1. pag. 196. yet they be­ing sent out in the morning, or euer the sonne of the Gospell was risen so high might ouersee manie thinges, which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see, for because that which they want in the sharpenesse of sight, they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sunne, and the light. Ex­cellent childe of light, whose knowledge is not in part. And oh worthie Discipline, of the Consistorian Syna­gogues: howe clearely shee carrieth all her implementes with her.

Let a man cast downe his head, but for a day, like a bul­rush, and giue a grone or two in the behalfe of that king­dome: and by and by he is snatched vp aboue the man in the moone, and may passe amongest them for an illu­minated Elder. But it would bee knowen what myste­ries [Page 358] haue beene reuealed, eyther by him or anie of his: that were vnknowen to those blessed men. Surely I know of none: except it bee that their Elderships are newly thrust into their Consistoriall beliefe. A point (I confesse) whereof those godly men were ignoraunt. Otherwise they were well inough acquainted with these quarrels. They had weighed them, and finding them too light, reiected them. They had skill to discerne of such vn­brideled spirites: and in their dayes greatly pittied them. In a worde to speake my opinion: they were in deede golde, if they be compared to Cartwright, and suche lyke drosse: who haue little in them, more then ordina­rie men, but onely paynted colours, and Sophisticall shewes.

Many other particulars of such their dealinges with the newe writers, might bee layd downe before you. But these to my purpose, are I knowe sufficient: and there­fore I will come to their boldnesse and presumption a­gainst not this man or that man, but euen whole reformed Churches. And although I finde some more temperate and modest heerein then others: yet when the freeholde of their Elderships is touched, they are all like to them­selues.

The Geneuians, in their Annotations vppon their har­mony of confessions, are well content that euery Church shall vse their libertie, as they shall thinke it most expedi­ent, in these pointes following: vz: the reading of the E­pistles Sect. 1. obs. 1. ad conf. Boh. and Gospels vppon sondayes and holy dayes, so as o­ther partes of the Scriptures doe not thereby growe into con­tempt: Kneeling Sect. 14. ob. 4. ad con. Bo. at the communion: the Sect. 14 ob. 2. ad con. Au. vse of all such ordinarie ceremonies at the celebration of the Communion, [Page 359] as nowe are vsed among the Lutherans, Copes, singing Organs &c. and were vsed before by the papistes at their masses: the Sect. 15. ob. 1. ad con. Wir. dispensation of the communion to those that be sicke at home in their houses: Ember Sect. 16. ob. 1. ad con. Bo. dayes and holy dayes consecrated to the godly memorye of the saintes: The singinge of Sect. 16. obs. 2. ad con. Bo. Christian hymnes and songes vppon the saide holy dayes, made to set out the glory of god, in respecte of the great good workes it pleased him to worke by them: The vse of funerall Sect. 16 ob. 1. ad con. wir. sermons: and the im­position Sect. 13. obs. 2. ad con. Bo. of handes vppon children, that canne say their Cate­chisme, which wee call Confirmation. In all these things (I say) they leaue euery Church to their liberty: so as other chur­ches, that vse them not, bee not thereby praeiudiced. But when any confession doth approoueSect. 17. obs. 1.2.3. ad con. August. the calling of Bi­shops; yealding vnto them all lawfull obedience (if they will not force vppon men their vngodly traditions as of chastitie &c.) or when their Aldermen or Consistories are impeached: then they looke about them: it is a nayle in a wound: they censure: they reiecte: they wrest and peruert, euery thinge at their pleasure, as partly I haue shewed in the ende of the Chapter: and as any man may further see that will take the paines to viewe those obser­uations.

Which manner and cariage of themselues: I perswade my selfe no wise man will like of. For besides their cor­rupt dealinge, it is too Pope-like, to take so much vppon them, as there they doe. What a vanity is this, to say of other Churches; wee allowe this, and that; if it bee thus and thus vnderstoode: otherwise wee cannot like of it: wee thinke it vnlawfull, wee cannot disgest it? And yet I cannot blame them so much; as I doe our owne dome­sticall counterfeites. They are in possession of a go­uernement: and woulde bee therefore loth to loose it. [Page 360] They got it hardly, and doe feare euery thinge, that maketh against it. I am perswaded if they might bee sure to keepe it still: they would be content to graunt (of their owne goodnesse) great liberty to all Churches in their owne matters. Whereas our make-bates, what furious and outragious courses haue they taken, against the Church of England; for the vse of those thinges, which nowe the Geneuians allowe of? And besides, concer­ning their pretended discipline: they will needes hold it before they haue it: and doe shewe allready as much or more contempt of those Churches, that dislike it, and are as sawcy with them: as any that I do know or heare of, ex­cept it be their disciples Barrow and his companions.

It hath pleased, that light headed▪ cockbraine, that pre­sumed to write a petition of late as vnto her Maiestie: and afterward like a seditious and vnduetiful person published the same to the people in printe (for what cause let wise men consider):Polit. pag. 13. amongest many other doultish vntruthes to affirme this; vz. that the Churches of Zuricke, Berne, Shaf­fhusen, S. Galls, Rethia, Mylliane, Bieuna, Polonie, and Hun­garia, haue commended (by their subscription to the second Heluetian confession) the gouernement of the Church by Elders, to be vsed in all Churches for euer. But let the whole con­fession bee viewed, and although I doubt not but that there was as much cunning vsed by the Geneuians about that subscription as might be; yet is there not one word in it, that tendeth that way.

In that confession there are but two markes of the Church set downe: the thirde after the Geneua com­putation, is leste out. In the Chapter of the ministers of the Church: they are all of them as many: as are there named, reckoned for ministers of the worde and sacra­mentes. [Page 361] That which is there, and might in any sorte be wrested to that purpose is this. And seeing there must needs be discipline in the Church, Conf. Helu. and in times past (apud veteres) excommunnication was vsed, and there were ecclesiasticall iudge­mentes in the people of god, in the which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly menne: it shall also bee the mini­sters part, to moderate this discipline, as it may edifie according to the condition of times, and the publique states, and as it shall bee necessarye. Which wordes are so farre from com­mendinge the perpetuall vse of the Geneua Eldershippe: that in mine opinion they are quite against it. For thus they say: First that there must bee discipline, which no man denyeth: secondly that excommunication was vsed in the times of the auncient fathers; this also is confessed: thirdly that amongest the Iewes there were ecclesiasticall courts, in which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly menne (who for anye thinge that is here sayde, might bee, of the tribe of Leui, and all of them priestes): and fourthly that it belongeth to the ministers to moderate this Discipline (that is) to vse it, or not to vse it, as times, states, and necessitye shall require.

And that this my interpretation of this fourth pointe must needes bee the meaning of the Heluetian confession: it appeareth hereby: in that this forme of gouernement, (which the petitioner speakeh of) is not in anye Church in all Heluetia for ought I haue heard. They haue no such Aldermen: they haue no vse of theyr excommun­cation. And hauing beene manye dayes solicited, to haue receiued it: for the better, reputation of Ge­neua, theyr aunswere hath euer beene: that euery Church is to haue an especiall eye to this pointe, what will most edifye: and that for-asmuch as they haue founde the [Page 372] terpretation of the Scriptures, which hath beene since the Apo­stles times. Defence of Ecclesiasticall discip. pa. 86. The notablest instrument: None euer like him? Maister Trauerse (I think): will not indure that. For he is resolute in Maister Bezaes behalfe: saying: Maister Beza is the best interpreter of the new Testament. There was one in Basile, who gaue it out after a glorious manner: that he did attribute,Caluin. Farello pa. 412. non minus Farello quam Paulo: no lesse to Farel­lus then he did to Paule. Which maister Caluin misliked.

Beza. Epist 12The letter, which Beza writ vnto our English discipli­naries, whereupon they were to build their consciences, is kept I perceiue by the Register as a relique at home inRegist. pa. 30. their houses.

In the scurrilous libell, which the brethren doe tear me the practise of prelates,Practise of Prelates D.2. I finde these wordes. Maister Cal­uin, Beza, Viret, &c. Knox, Cartwright, and such like, &c. are the onely worthies in the worlde, that haue maintained Dis­cipline. Worthies? A trifling commendation. He was a verie notable man in his time: that saide, mediocria fir­ma. And might no meaner a dignitie serue these men: but needes they must be Worthies? They should haue called them stupor mundi: the astonishment of the world.

There is much written of the Popes of Rome by their Parasites: as that they haue a diuine iudgement, and can­not erre, &c. and you shall see that within a while (if the world hold thus on,) the Consistoriall humoristes may chaunce to come neere them: euen in this their so grosse and palpable folly.Epist. ad mise. Zanchius telleth a notable historie. When he came newly out of Italy to Geneua, Caluin and Vire­tus preached ordinarily there at one certaine houre: the one in Saint Peters Church: the other in Saint Geruasins. Nowe there was a Frenchman, with whome hee grew in­to [Page 373] some acquaintance, that neuer missed Maister Caluins sermon: but woulde not once vouchsafe to heare Vire­tus.

Whereupon Zanchius demaunding of him the reason: why hee heard not the one sometimes aswell as the other: in haec ferme verbarespondet sed Gallice: St veniret S. Paulus qui eadem hor [...] concionaretur, qua & Caluinus: ego relicto Paulo audirem Caluinum: the Frenchman aunswered plain­ly in these very wordes almost, but in French: If Saint Paule should come to Geneua, and should preach the same houre that Caluin did, I would leaue Paule, and goe to heare Caluin.

It is also written of Alexander the third, that treading vpon the necke of the noble Emperour Fredericke the first;Carion. Nauclerus. hee applied vnto himselfe and that action, these wordes of the Psalme spoken of Christ: Thou shalt walke vppon the venemous Aspe and Basiliske: Psal. 118. thou shalt tread downe the Lyon and Dragon. And see what was written in a letter to maister Caluin, by one Iacobus Bernardus from Geneua: which letter Caluin thought meete to be kept in store, and Beza to publish it in print. Maister Caluin being banni­shed from Geneua, by the procurement of the Ministers especially that disliked his proceedinges: there was great meanes made for his returne thither again. So as after some two or three yeares absence thence, it was agreed in the Ci­ty, that hee should be restored to his former place, as you haue heard before. Quod cum intellexissem, non potui non laudare Deum, aliterque iudicare, quam quód a Deo factum istud, & esset mirabile in oculis nostris, quodque lapis quem reprobarant aedificantes, Math. 21▪ Marc. 12. Luke 20. Rom. 9. 1. Pet. 2. in caput fieret anguli: which thing, (saith the said Bernardus to Caluin) when I vnderstood, I could not but praise God, nor otherwise iudge, then that it was [Page 374] the Lordes dooing and was maruilous in our eyes, and that the stone which the builders had refused shoulde bee made the heade of the corner. Which wordes are onely applied in the newe Testament by the Apostles and Euangilests to our sauiour Christe: & were in my iudgment as blasphemously applied to Caluin, as the other were by the Pope to him-selfe

But I will leaue these immodrate and forraine dotages: & specifie vnto you some of our domesticall. I confesse to you (saith the displayer of men in their colloures) I reue­rence D. Page. 37. Fulke: and no disparagement vnto any, I thinke him vniuersally as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was. And in an other place:Page. 34. Put it to the censure of D. Fulke, D. Whitta­kers, Page. 37. Maister Cartwright &c. Men I hope as well able to iudge: as all the L. Bishops in christendome. Againe: No question, but Caluin and Beza are wide sometimes. Also afterwarde. The verie ornaments of your vniuersitie indeede,Page. 87.whose verie names and liues doe carry with them aestimation to bee reueren­ced: D. Fulke: D. Goade: D. Whittakars: to these men I ap­peale. And furthermore. If wee should once or twise and vse it not, Page. 112. set D. Fulkes learned iudgement against the bare au­thoritie of Caluin and Beza in this case, I doe not see that it be any great preiudice or disparagement vnto any. Diuerse other such like speeches there are in that booke, where­by a man may see, how the brethren are affected vnto their parte-takers. Although he nameth some, who will neuer thanke him for it, and I supose hee hath done them great iniurie, in making them to seeme the patrones of such fancies, as there are mainetained.

I made mention before of Cartwrights place, amongst certaine disciplinary worthies. But my meaninge is not so to passe him ouer, whom all the rest of our men doe soe admire. His authoritie in deede is very great, [Page 375] as being in effecte the Patriarche of them all. Those thinges that he writeth, are almost oracles. Happye is the brother: that canne come in his companie. If hee bee in prison, prayers are made for his deliueraunce: if hee bee deliuered, great thankes are publickely giuen vnto god for the same. If hee commaund, the rest obey: if hee shall relent; I thinke they will all relent. When great matters are to bee handled: he must needs be one in euery place: Couentry, Cambrdige, London, &c. And vppon any new accidents: the occurrents are caried to him, as to their chiefest counsaylor.

Salute our Chap. to F. 1585. most reuerent brother maister Cartwright, for whome prayers are made with vs.

As soone as I M. R. to F. knowe of maister Cartwrightes deliuery, I sent for maister Trauers, and we had psalmes of thankesgiuing & prayers to the same purpose and a sermon: his text being the 20 of Ieremie. 10.11.12.13.14. verses.

I percciue by those Wake to F. 1587. imperfect writinges of maister Cart­wrightes and others, that the pointes of reformation are at large and particularly debated.

Wee want Gelli. 10▪, F. 1586. bookes, whereby wee may come to the knowledge of the truth. I meane T. C. bookes.

The forme of Fen. against Bridges. 120. gouernment set down by T. C. is commanded by god.

I thanke god Far. to Lit. 1586. I haue satisfied in part my longing, with conference with M. Cartwright: of whom I thinke: as she did of Solomon

I would Gellibr. to Field. gladly knowe when I might come (from Oxford to London) to see T.C.

Maister Snape, Snape to Bar. bon 1590. vpon one of his examinations before her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical, findinge some matters to haue bene further disclosed, then he loo­ked for: presently directed his letters thereof, into the [Page 376] countrey, mouing his frend, that maister Cartwright might be aduertised. It were good (saith he) you sent to T.C. with speed.

I would gladly heare whether T. C. did councell you, or de­maund councell of you.Hart to Field.I wish the matter maye bee well and closly handled. For I heare some whispering allready (yet among them that fauour the cause) that he hath councelled the brethren rather to vse those corruptions, then to leaue their charges. I wish and hope it be not so: not onely least men should iudge the man to be inconstant, but especially for that these times be such, that in them such yealding will doe no good.

Maister D. Bridges hauing occasion in his writinges to name Maister Cartwright: did forget to carry this word M. vnder his girdle: but called him plainly Cartwright. Wher­at see how maister Trauerse repineth. Trauers def. pag 32. Wee acknowledge and reuerence maister Cartwright, as his rare guiftes of knowledge & zeale & his learned works, & constant suffering in this cause, and at this time his continuall trauell in preaching the Gospell, doe worthely deserue: for which cause hee was worthy other re­spect, then the replier here doth giue him. If hee would needes set downe his name, hee shoulde haue considered the example of the Apostle, who yet seldome or neuer mentioneth any minister of the Gospell by name, yea scarse anye professor, without some good marke of the grace of god in them. But this and a great deale more, both hee, and whosoeuer shall serue god, as they ought, in this cause of the further reformation of the Church, must account to endure of them, that oppose themselues to this most necessary seruice. I had lately some speach with Maister Cartwright concerning our next meeting, who aduised me to put you in mind of some thinges, Lord to Fen. [...]589. &c. Hee saith that at your late being together at Wroxall, you determined our nexte meetinge to bee at Warwicke at the quarter Sessions that twesday, for the humbling of our selues: and the day following to consult of other matters. [Page 377] His request is, that you will giue notice thereof vnto the bre­thren of our conference, and also that by your meanes, there may bee some of vs appointed to exercise in priuate that day. If this his request connot conueniently bee performed, then I take it necessary thot you write so with some speede to M. Cart­wright, that hee may prouide a remedie else where.

M. May and I ridde with M. Cartwright to M. Throgmor­tons, two miles out of Warwicke; where hee preached: more he sayde then euer he did in his life before &c. Farmer to Little. 1586. On tuesday M. Cartwright kept M. Fens lecture: text psalme 122. 4. vnto the ende: takinge thrones as Tremellius doth, and vrginge the discipline, the want wherof hee affirmed to bee the cause, that some friendes forsooke our church, and enemies (as Papistes,) would not come neere her. C. Garton to Field.

I pray you remember to reserue for mee one of the rare birds bookes his name may bee right Cartwright. God bee praised though hee cannot speake vnto vs, yet accordinge to his name hee doth write. He is a worthy wight.

Sicut discipuli olim presto habuerunt ipsum Dominum: M. Cholm. to Field 1582. ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo presentem. as the disciples in times past had the Lord himselfe amongst them, so I haue M. Cartwright, my Lord in presence with me.

And thus hetherto of these poore simple; but yet most palpable parasites. The disciplinarie crue, a company of Apostles: and Cartwright their Christe. Christe a­mongste his Apostles, and Cartwright amongst his Dis­ciples. If Cartwright and such other guides were not supposed by their followers to bee very notable Thra­soes, is it possible that any man of common sence, would shewe themselues to bee such flattering Gnathoes? And these are the menne (for-sooth) that in all their spee­ches will pretende scriptures. But when they haue [Page 378] so done, tell them, that they peruerte the scriptures to serue their turnes: and that thus, and thus, they must vnderstand them according to the iudgement of all the auncient fathers: their aunswere in effecte is this. What tell you vs of the auncient fathers? Caluin and Beza, are the beste expounders of the scriptures. Maister Cart­wright is a rare birde, a worthy wight, and as it were, Christ himselfe amongest his Apostles. They haue taught vs as wee teach: they are our fathers, who haue begotten in vs a loue and a likinge of the Geneua Discipline, and them will wee followe. In truth it is pitifull to consider: vnto what a height of pride many men are growen. It is lesse subiecte to offence, to reiect the authoritie of Saint Iero­me, Saint Augustine, or anye of the rest: nay to refuse them alltogether; then to reiecte the iudgementes ey­ther of Caluin, of Beza or of Cartwright.

For Maister Caluin and maister Beza, I, doe thinke of them, and of their writinges, as they deserue. But yet I thinke better of the auncient fathers: I must confesse it. And for maister Cartwright, it is true, that hee hath many good partes in him: but the ouer-weening which he hath of himselfe, and which many besides haue of him, is like a lumpe of dowe, that sowereth both him and them all. You haue heard of what accounte, his writinges are with his sectaries: insomuch that one of them saith in effecte both for himselfe and for his brethren, that without Cart­wrightes bookes they cannot come to the knowledge of the truth. Cartwrights bookes the way to the truth? To speake my conscience: they are the waye to manye grosse errors, and seditious fancies. Of all his bookes I woulde thinke, that should beare the price, which containeth the iustification of all his deuises; and is the last frutes of that [Page 379] Worthies wit: I meane his second reply. Touching the which booke, you shall heare maister Doctor Whitakers opinion: from whence, (especially if some one or two ioyned with him), the layer out of men in colours (as it hath been sayd) will not hastily appeale. Thus hee wri­teth.

Quem Cartwrightus nuper emisit libellum, eius magnam par­tem perlegi. Ne viuam si quid vnquam viderim dissolutius, ac penè puerilius. Verborum satis ille quidem lautam ac nouam su­pellectilem habet, rerum omnino nullam, quantum ego iudicare possum. Deinde non modo peruersè de principis in rebus sacris at que ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit: sed in papistarum etiam castra transfugit: a quibus tamen videri vult odio capitali dis­sidere. Verum nec in hac causa ferendus, & alijs etiam in par­tibus tela a papistis mutuatur. Denique vt de Ambrosio dixit Hieronimus, verbis ludit, sententijs dormitat: & plane indignus est, qui a quopiam docto resutetur.

That is, I haue read a great part of that booke which maister Cartwright, hath lately published: vz: (this second reply): I pray God I liue not, if euer I saw any thing more loosely written and almost more childishly. It is true that for wordes, hee hath great store, and those both fine and new: but for matter, as farre as I can iudge, he is altogether barren. Moreouer he doth not onely thinke peruersly of the authoritie of Princes, in causes ec­clesiasticall, but also flyeth into the Papistes holdes, from whome he would be thought to dissent with a mortall hatred. But in this point he is not to be endured: and in other partes also hee bor­roweth his argumentes from the Papistes. To conclude, as Ie­rome said of Ambrose: hee playeth with wordes, and is lame in his sentences: and is altogether vnworthy to bee confuted by anie man of learning. If anie shall heere obiect that maister Whittakers was not Doctor, when hee writ in this sorte: [Page 380] My aunswere is this. Hee writ this letter about the same time, that he beganne to write against Campian: when hè had attained alreadie vnto suche ripenesse of iudgement, as there is no more daunger hee should nowe be altered in this that hee hath written of Cartwrightes booke: then that he should alter heereafter from that trueth which he main­tained about the same time against Campian.

And it is true: that hee neuer gaue a righter censure of anie booke in his life. Maister Cartwright must content himselfe with it: and so must his followers. He depen­deth himselfe too much vppon Caluin and Beza: and so do many amongest vs vppon him. Such admiration of mens persons, and of their learning: must needes be very dan­gerous. It hath euer been the cause of schisme. And there was neuer more mischiefe like to grow of it: then there is now. For I know not how it commeth about: but you shall seldome finde any; who hath once tasted of the Dis­ciplinary potion, that is not forthwith possessed (as it were) with a wonderfull opinion, not onely of the chiefe confe­ctioners and fauourers of it, but likewise of themselues. And for all other men, Fathers, Councels, newe or olde, they little esteeme them; if they make any thing against them. I might heape vp in this place a number of obser­uations, which haue been made many hundreth yeares since, as concerning suche like courses taken by many: and howe they neuer gat to themselues any true reputati­on thereby, but the contrary. But I will spare them there­in. Onely, I cannot choose but tell them, that the aunci­ent fathers were as wise and learned men, as they are: that the olde generall Councelles ought to be of as great cre­dite with any but madde men, as their conuenticles or Synodes: that although wee ought to depend onely vp­on [Page 381] the worde of God: yet for the interpretation of it, we may as safely follow the iudgementes of the auncient fa­thers, of the first generall Councels, and of some other learned men: as of any of their chiefe patrones and mai­sters: that howsoeuer our owne men doe thinke of them­selues, yet they are no better then other men: Nay there are many equall to the best of them, and many who are farre their superiours. And I take it, that he sheweth him­selfe to be their best friendes, who by telling them their wantes, can bring them to some humilitie. In which re­spect Maister Cartwright is to thanke Doctor Whittakers for signifiyng his iudgement, touching that his great bun­dell of shreddes: which some rashe, and fond men doe so greatly admire. It is most certaine that although the flat­tering of Parasites, doth seeme to bee pleasant: yet the woundes of a louer are much more profitable.

BY that which hath been said in the 5. chap­ter; it appeareth vnto you, what litle help, they are to look for, in the ancient fathers: toward the setting forth of the Geneua plat forme. They talke of certaine steps & traces of that hare in them: but more they con­fesse in some places, that they cānot find. And yet notwith­standing at another time, and when they haue forgotten themselues; they will of purpose (I feare it) to abuse the [Page 382] worlde stand very much vppon the auncient fathers, and bragge of their authoritie exceedingly. As Cartwright doth in these words most vntruly: We propound nothing (saith he) that the scriptures doe not teach: the writers both olde and newe, for the most part affirme, and the examples of the primitiue Churches confirme. T.C. lib. 1. pag 7. Did euer any manne re­gard Cartwrightes credite? who (considering what hath beene noted out of his bookes in this whole processe) doeth not pittie him, with all his harte, to heare him so farre to forget himselfe? Hee is a manne of good lear­ning, which maketh mee to woonder at him. It is sure­ly great pittie that euer hee was so maried vnto his Elder­shippe. For, it hath vtterly ouerthrowne all the good partes that bee in him. The best lawyer that is, when hee giueth himselfe to shiftes and to feed his clyentes with quirkes, refusing not to brabble in anye cause, be it neuer so false: he looseth his estimation, and with the gra­uer sort is little regarded.

Howe truely Maister Cartwright affirmeth: that he and his fellows do propound nothing but that the old writers, for the most parte doe affirme, and the examples of the primitiue church confirme: I trust it hath in part already ap­peared vnto you in sundry places, but especially in the 5. as I saide, and in the 27. Chapters. I haue heard some Councellers at lawe, vse the verye like course of speach: when notwithstanding the cause hath falne out most di­rectly against them, yet they haue cried out: Oh my Lord, wee haue these and these olde euidences to shewe, such and such depositions doe make for vs verye manifestly: wee haue yet many witnesses to bee examined, and thus they will proceed with many cracking wordes: as though there had beene nothing which had made against them. Is [Page 383] Cartwright able (trowe you) to finde his Parish Bishops and his counterfeit Lay-Elders, (which two pointes are in effecte all in all with him) in the auncient fathers and primitiue Church▪ T.C. lib. 3. pag 42.45. Hee maye say as truely: that the Sonne shines at midnight. But yet hee sayth; that Igna­tius and Cyprians Bishops, were but as our pastors or parsons arein euery parish. For his vnministering Elders, hee al­ledgeth the same Ignatius and Cyprian: and for a surcharge, hee bringeth in also Tertullian, Hierome, Possidonius, T.C. li. 1. p. 113.100.99. and Socrates: where they make mention of priests. I was once purposed to haue set downe the places themselues, which they so violently peruerte, to bolster out such theyr ap­paraunt falshood: and to haue aunswered them. But then I remembred howe effectually that had beene done allready by diuers learned and woorthie menne: and of late more fully and largely by two especiall persons, whose books one of them is in printing, and the other presently comming to the presse: and therevpon I altered my mind in that point. And yet something thereof agreeably to the course which hetherto I haue obserued, that may peraduenture amaze some of them.

Vppon some occasion falling out: maister Cartwright affirmeth,T.C. lib. pag 183. that if the now Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury had read the ecclesiasticall stories, hee shoulde haue founde easiely the Eldership most florishing in Constantines time: vz. in hauing then such Bishops and Elders as hee fancieth to himselfe. For he must bee so vnderstood.D.W. pag 652. To whome replie being made, that he should bring but one ecclesiasticall historie, that affirmed so much: after some three or fower yeares, hee brought two: vz. the historie of Magdeburge, and Eusebius. His testimony out of the first he setteth down in these words. The centuries must needes haue told him, that the [Page 384] same orders and functions of the church were in that time which were before. And what would he inferre hereof? Surely if hemeane honestly, and doe not dally with the word (be­fore) refering it further then the Centuries meant it, which was but to the age, that succeeded the Apostles, he could not haue directed a man, to any history now extant, that doth more directly confound his assertion. For there the authors of that history, doe most plainely affirme: that by and by after the Apostles death, necessitas coegit person­arum gradus aliquos constituere et conseruare:Cent. 2 de gub. eccl. Chap. 7.necessity com­pelled (the fathers then liuing) to ordaine certaine degrees of per­sons in the church and to conserue them. This is most directly a­gainst Cartwrights assertion: although for mine own part (to note it by the way) I thinke the Apostles, knowing the necessitie mentioned, had taken that order before. But to follow the said historie. There were three degrees then or­dained, say the said authors: vz. Episcopatus, presbyterium, Dia­conatus: the degree, of Bishops, of priesthood, and of Deaconship. For the proofe whereof they cite Ignatius, Eusebius, Theo­doret, &c. and the very place of S. Ierome: where he shew­eth how for auoiding of schisme, one was chosen amongst the ministers, to haue preheminence ouer the rest, and to whome the name of Bishop was peculiarly then attribu­ted. And as concerning the priests or Elders they doe shew it out of Eusebius, Nicephorus, Irenaeus, Iustine, &c. that their office was to preach the Gospell, and to administer the sacra­ments, &c. The Centuries thus we see; will not serue M. Cartwrights turne,Ibid. to the iustifying of the florishing estate of his Eldership in Constantines daies. I wil therfore come vn­to his sec̄od authority, which he bringeth out of Eusebius.

It is manifest (saith he) that the churches were gouerned vn­der Constantine by Bishops, Elders, and Deacons: by that [Page 385] which is recited of an infinit number of Elders and Deacons, which came to the Councel of Nice with the 250. Bishops. It is manifest indeede.Euseb. lib. 1. de vit. Consta. And it is also as manifeste; that there were at that time, both Archbishops and Patriarches. But there were at that Councel; both Bishops Elders and Dea­cons. And what then▪ I know that many men haue wrested many places, directly contrarie to the authors meaninge: but I doe not remember anie one place, within the com­passe of my small readinge, that is more grosly peruerted then this place is. For M. Cartwright running still his old biace, would haue men to thinke, that by Bishops, Eusebius meant so many parishe-ministers, and by priests or Elders, his said counterfaite Aldermen. And his authoritie is so greate amongest his sectaries, (who professe their Gleaninge after him,1 Pag. R.B. sea. paos. 50.) that what-so-euer he bringeth, they take it vpon his credit, and so runne on with a conceite, that not onely all other authorities, brought by him, out of the auntient Fathers mentioned, are truely by him ex­pounded and applyed, but that also euen this place of Eu­sebius, is to bee vnderstood, as here he woulde haue it. Wherein surely they are much to blame, to depend so much vpon any mans credit. If they them-selues had euer read, either the Fathers, or the ecclesiasticall histories, they coulde neuer possibly, haue beene miscarried so palpably.

A frinde of mine hauinge some talke, not many yeares since, with Maister Cartwright, about this place of Euse­bius alledged and expounded by him, as you haue heard: vrged him verie earnestly, that he woulde indeede, tell him truely; whether hee (beeinge a man of learninge, and so coulde not bee ignorant of Eusebius meaninge,) did not sinne; euen against his owne conscience, when [Page 486] he cited that place, to such an ende and purpose, as hee had done. His aunswere was, that hee did not: and that hee was still of the same minde therein, that hee was before. Why Sir, replyed my friende. As Eusebi­us sayeth: that there were an infinit number of Elders and Deacons, which came to the Councell of Nice, with the 250 Bishops:Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 8. So it is reported by Socrates, that in the sayde Councell, it had beene decreed by the Bi­shops &c. (but for Paphnutius,) that Bishops Elders & Dea­cons, shoulde haue companied no more with their wiues: Quas cum erant laiui in matrimonium duxissent, which they had married, when they were lay-menne. And now must wee expound Socrates in this place, as you doe expounde Eusebius ▪ doth Socrates meane by priestes there, your manner of lay Elders? was the Councell bent, to haue debarred such men from their wiues? Speake your conscience truely I pray you. Maister Cartwright aun­swered againe: that hee verily thought in his conscience, that by priestes there, Socrates vnderstood the saide Elders, and that the Councell meant, to haue seperated them from their wiues. And this reason was: because within a while after there was some question, whether Subdea­cons might marrie. My sayde friende replied againe, that hee was verie sory to heare his aunswere: and that he verily thought, the like interpretation of Socrates wordes, was neuer made before, nor would euer be made (hee ho­ped,) by anie after him. And so they parted.

Afterwardes my sayde friend, findinge that when hee told some persons of great place, how M. Cartwright did ex­pounde the said words of Socrates, they would hardly be­leeue him, but supposed rather that he had mistaken them: did write a letter vnto him, desiringe him most earnestly [Page 387] that if he c̄otinued in the same mind he left him, he would be content to returne vnto him, in writing, some further reasons thereof, then formerly he made at his being with him. Maister Cartvvright hereupon, writ backe againe vnto my friend (I haue his letter in my custodie) excusing himselfe, that through want of bookes, he could not sa­tisfie his expectation so fully as he would. But for the point,T.C. Lett. 18. Mart. 15.90. I speake of, thus he writ. Touching that it seemeth strange vnto you, that the gouerning elders should haue bene in danger to haue bene forbidden mariage in the councell of Neece: I thought I had satisfied you, in alleaging, that not long after, there vvas great hold amongst the councels, vvhether Deacons, yea Subdeacons, should be married So as now, that which before stood only vpon the credit of the relator, is readie to be shewed vnder maister Cartvvrights hand, as it hath alreadie bene to diuers of this disciplinarie disposition: who (as I haue bene informed, and partly do know) all of them, haue vtterly signified their great dislike of that point. And yet either he must of necessitie so inter­pret Socrates, or els be driuen to giue ouer Eusebius, and so both he and all his Aldermen, to take their leaue of the Ec­clesiasticall histories, and bid them adieu.

But yet there is another thing in maister Cartvvrights sayd letter, which is very fit for you to vnderstand, that so you may see how he foileth himselfe. One thing (sayth hee vnto my sayd friend) in your letter, I thinke you mistake me in: that you esteeme that I should hold a bishop and a minister of the vvord, all one, in the times of the Nicene councell. For notvvithstanding that I hold, that in the Apostles time, and vvith S. Paule, it is all one to be a bishop and to be a minister of the vvord, yet it vvere a foule ignorance in me, if I should not haue knovvne, that long before the councell of Neece, the [Page 388] name of bishop vvas for the most part appropriated to one in a church. C̄osider I pray you, how the man was mistaken? If by elders, Eusebius should haue meant his counteirfet laie rulers, must he not then by his 250 bishops most necessari­ly haue meant so many parish ministers, pastors or parsons, except he will say that there was no such ministers there, which were as new a paradox as the rest. But how agreeth this? of the difference he confesseth betwixt a bishop and a minister of the word, long before the councell of Neece, with some other of his sayings else-where in print, such as there are.T.C. l. 1. pa. 99. The bishop that Ignatius speaketh of, vvas but the minister of a particular congregation. Againe, Ciprians Bi­shop vvas nothing els, but S. Pauls bishop, that is one that had cure and charge of one flocke. T.C. l. 1. p. 100. Again, the bishop vvhich S. Ciprian speaketh of, is nothing els, but such as vve call pa­stor, or as the common name with vs is, Parson, and his church vvherof he is bishop, is neither diocesse nor prouince, but a congregation vvhich meet together in one place, and bee taught of one man.

Now ioine these things together, and see what a Galli­mawfrie ye haue. May not a man misdoubt, that maister Cartvvright is not yet resolued of his owne opinion? Haue not his scholers great cause to reioyce in glaining after so constant an author? What can he pretend to salue his credit withall? Hee will neuer secke a refuge for shame out of these words, vz. For the most part. As though he should thus expound S. Ierome, where he saith, that when some began to hold of Peter, some vpon Paule, and some vpon Apollo (which was as I take it, in the Apostles times) it was then decreed throughout all the world, that for auoyding of schismes, one minister, who was called a bishop, should haue authoritie and iurisdicti­on [Page 389] ouer all other ministers in his diocesse, that is true (should Cartvvright say) throughout all the world, ex­cept at Antioch and Carthage (two little hamblets) where Ignatius and S. Cyprian were but plaine parsons, euen like the parsons of Hitchin and Newington.

Not many yeares since a friend of mine was comman­ded for a certaine purpose, to contriue the cheese matters in controuersie about the pretended discipline, into certain questions. And it is pertinent to the matter I now speake of, to acquaint you with two of them. The first (because of the pretence which is made, as you haue heard, of the an­cient fathers) was this.A Question VVhether can it bee shevved out of any ancient father, out of any councell, either generall or pro­uinciall, or out of any ecclesiasticall historie, for the space of 1500 and od yeares, euen from the Apostles times, till of late, that in the ordinarie distribution of church-officers (since that time euer vsed) into Episcopos, Presbyteros, & diaconos, Bishops, priests, & deacons: vvhether can it (I say) be shevv­ed, that this vvord Episcopus, that is, Bishop, vvas at any time taken there, and vsed by the churches in any countrie, for a common and vsuall name to all ministers of the vvord and sacraments, vvithout, distinguishing thereby any one of them from another, or vvas: it not euer vvithin the time li­mited taken and vsed only in the said distribution, for one a­mongst the ministers of the vvord and sacraments, that go­uerned the rest both of the ministers and people vvithin their circuits limited vnto them?

This question with the rest was sent to maister doctor Raynolds in Oxford, to the intent he might returne his opi­nion of them, which he forbare at that time to do, in re­spect of certain other businesse that he had in hand. How­beit, maister doctor Robinson, (his especial & most familiar [Page 390] friend) being acquainted, as it seemeth, with the sayd que­stions, hath written in this sort vpon another occasion, not dissenting therein, as I take it, from maister doctor Rey­nolds. D. Robins. answ. exhib. to the L. Archb. of Cant. I haue (sayth he) mainteined it in the pulpit, that the titles of honour vvhich vve giue to bishops, are no more repugnant to the vvord of God, then it is for vs to bee called vvardens, presidents, prouosts of colleges. And in my iudge­ment, they may vvith as good conscience be gouernours of their diocesse, as vve being ministers, may be gouernours of colleges of ministers. Neither do I thinke, that this vvas a late deuised policie. Revel 2.1. For I am persuaded, that the angell of the church of Ephesus, to vvhom S. Iohn vvriteth, vvas one minister, set ouer the rest. For seeing there vvere many pa­stors there, vvhy should S. Iohn vvrite to the angell of the church of Ephesus, and not rather to the angels, if there had bene no difference amongst them? Act. 20.17.28. And if this presidencie had had that fault, vvhich is reprooued in Diotrephes, as S. Ierome proueth, that the Ievves had not corrupted the origi­nall text, before Christ his comming: Quod nunquam domi­nus & Apostoli, Ieromin. 6. cap. Esay. qui caetera crimina arguunt in Scribis & Phariseis, de hoc crimine quod erat maximum reticuissent: So I may say, neither vvould our sauiour, vvho by his seruant reproueth those disorders vvhich he found in the seuen chur­ches, haue passed ouer this great fault in silence. Therefore as Titus vvas left to reforme the churches, Tit. 1.6. throughout the vvbole Iland of Crete: so I am persuaded, that in other places, some of that order of pastors and teachers vvhich is perpetu­all in the church, euen in the time of the Apostles had a prela­cie amongst their bretheren, and that this preheminencie is approoued by our sauiour. And if vve come any lovver though the vvord Episcopus, signifie that care vvhich is re­quired of all, & in scripture be applied to all, that haue charge [Page 391] of soules: yet I do not remember any one ecclesiasticall vvri­ter that I haue read, vvherein that vvord doth not import a greater dignitie then is common to all ministers. Neither do I thinke that any old vvriter did vnder the name of Bishop, meane the pastor of euery parish. VVhen the emperors vvere persecutors, vve read of seueral elders, but neuer of more then one bishop at once in Rome: the like is to be sayd of other great cities, [...] Heb. 1 [...]. 20. [...] 1. Pet. 5.4. and the churches neere adioining. And to meet vvith that offence vvhich is taken at the name of Archbishop, be­cause that name is so appropriated to Christ in scripture, that it is no vvhere giuen to any other. I take it that there is no substantiall difference betvveene archbishop, [...]1. Cor. 3.10. and archbuil­der. Either therfore the Apostle offended in taking too svvel­ling a title, vvhen hee called himselfe an archbuilder, or cheefe builder, or it must be graunted, that this title may in some degree be giuen to men vvithout derogation to Christ.

And thus farre doctor Robinson, with whom if maister doctor Reinolds do agree, I see not whither the factioners will turne them: for (as I take it) they will not reiect his o­pinion. They haue bragged much of him indeed, and of his iudgement (in sundrie of their writings) as though he were wholy on their side: and that they held nothing, but he would iustifie it. Howbeit, they haue done him therin (I doubt not) exceeding great iniurie. For requitall wher­of, I would wish him neuer to seeke any other reuenge, but to turne them to his booke against Hart, where hee hath written his mind, as touching this point now in hand.

In the Church of Ephesus (sayth he) though it had sundrie D. Rainol. pa. 535. elders and pastors, (he vseth these two words in one signifi­cation, as by the sentence going before, it is manifest) to guide it: yet amongst those sundrie, vvas there one cheefe, [Page 392] vvhom our sauiour calleth the angell of the church, Act. 20.17 Reuel. 2.1. and vvri­teth that to him, vvhich by him the rest sh [...]uld [...]novv. And this is he, vvhom aftervvards in the primitiue church, the Fathers called bishop. For, &c. the name of Bishop, common (before) to all elders and pastors of the church, vvas then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him, vvho had the presidentship ouer elders. Cip. Epi. 13. Thus are certain elders re­proued by Ciprian Bishop of Carthage, for receiuing to the communion, them, vvho had fallen in time of persecution, be­fore the bishop had aduised of it, vvith them and others.

Here then you haue two for Oxford, touching the lan­guage of the ancient fathers, when they speake of bishops. Now you shal haue a Cambridge mans opinion, no moe but of one (I tell you) at this time: marry he shall be such a one as the brotherhood, if they bee of the painters mind before mentioned in the chapter, may well bee compared with the other two, seeing his iudgement is layd in equall ballance there, both with Caluins and Bezaes, and that without any disparagement vnto them, you know whom I mean, it is maister doctor Fulke, who in his confutation of the Rhemish notes vpon the new testamēt, writeth thus: Amongst the clergie for order and seemly gouernment, D. Fulk con­fut. Annot. Tit. 1. v. 5. there was alwaies one principall, to vvhō by long vse of the church, the name of Bishop, or superintendent hath bene applied: vvhich roome, Titus exercised in Creta, Timothie in Ephe­sus, & others in other places. Therfore although in the scrip­ture, a bishop and an elder is of one order and authoritie in preaching the vvord, and administration of the sacraments (as Hierome doth often confesse) yet in gouernmēt by anci­ent vse of speech, hee is onely called a Bishop, vvhich is in the scriptures called [...]or [...] Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13.17. that is, cheefe in gouernment, [Page 393] to vvhom the ordination or consecration by imposition of bands, vvas alvvaies principally cōmitted, &c. VVhich most ancient forme of gouernment, vvhen Adrius vvould take a­vvay, it vvas noted amongst his other errors. Hitherto do­ctor Fulke, so as hereby I trust it may appeare to maister Cartvvrights reproch, and to all their shames that shall pretend any authoritie frō the ancient fathers, to impugne the right honorable & lawful calling of Bishops, not par­sons in euery parish, but Bishops in their diocesse and pro­uinces, appointed in the Apostlestimes, for the right order and gouernment of the church of Christ.

The second question before mentioned, being as con­cerning priests or elders, was, as it followeth. VVhether can it be shevved out of any ancient father, out of any councell ei­ther generall or prouincial, or out of any ecclesiastical historie, for the space of 1500 & od yeares, euen frō the Apostles times, till of late, that in the sayd ordinarie distribution, since that time euer vsed of church-officers, into episcopos, Presbiteros, & Diaconos, Bishops, priests and deacons, whether I say, can it be shevved that the vvord presbyter, priest, or elder, vvas at any time taken and vsed for certain meere lay men, as crafts­men, husbandmen, citizens, gentlemen or noblemen, such as should be chosen for a yeare or tvvo, to be assistants vnto the ministers of the vvord, for the better gouernment of the church, as to haue authoritie vvith others, to ordaine and impose their hands vpon a minister of the vvord and sacra­ments, to bind and lose sinnes, &c. vsing in the meane time their seuerall vocations▪ as they did before, and ceasing after the said one or tvvo yeres, vvithout any offence cōmitted by thē to be any longer presbyteri. Or vvas it not euer vvithin the time limited taken & vsed only in the said distribution for the ministers of the vvord and sacraments? Vnto this questiō, one hath made this answer. The vvord Presbiteri [Page 394] vvas neuer othervvise takē since the Apostles times, in that distribution: but for the ministers of the vvord and sacra­mēts, as it is most euidēt to any that shal peruse the ecclesiasti­call histories, or vvill take any paines to read the vvritings of the ancient fathers. But of this point before it be long, you shall heare more by one, who, as he hath done euery thing he dealeth with, so hath hee handled this very notably. Now in the meane while, according to the order which hitherto I haue kept, it shall be sufficient for me, that the three sayd doctors, men well accounted of with maister Cartvvright, and his adherents, and such as will not bee thought to speake any thing partially, may deliuer their opinions, as touching this matter. For to my vnderstan­ding, they are as direct in this point, what the word Pres­byteri should signifie in the ancient fathers, as they were before, in the other of Bishops. If in the sayd ancient Fa­thers, the name of Bishop be appropriated to one that had a greater dignitie than was common to all ministers, and that by the name of Bishops, they neuer vnderstood the pastors of euery parish, as doctor Robinson sayth. If in the primitiue church, and in the Fathers language, they were called Bishops, that were the cheefe, and presidents ouer the rest of the priests or elders, euen such as our Sauiour himselfe, by the holy Euangelist S. Iohn, doth call angels, as doctor Reynolds affirmeth. If by ancient vse of speech he was onely called a Bishop, which in the scriptures is called [...]or [...] If the elders that were subiect to these gouernours, were of one order and authoritie with them, in preaching the word, and administration of the sacraments, as doctor Fulke hath written, against the Iesuits: doth it not follow most necessarily, that all the Clergie being deduced into three degrees, vz. of Bishops, [Page 395] priests or elders, and deacons: that by priests, the ancient fathers must needs vnderstand the rest of the ministers of the word and sacraments, that were no bishops? except a­ny will be so impudent, as to say, that they were none of the clergie. He that will doubt hereof, let him doubt for me, whether the sunne be vp at noone.

Besides, doctor Raynolds sheweth, that Ciprians elders did administer the sacraments. And for doctor Fulke, after he had once incountred with the papists, and amongst ma­ny other points, was come to this whereof I speake, con­cerning the name of priests, as it is a distinct degree vnder bishops: though before, and peraduenture then also, hee had a great fancie to the consistoriall Aldermen, yet then that hee was driuen to deale directly and truly: consider how he was inforced to alter his disciplinarie stile: Those priests or ministers that are made among vs, Defen. of the Engl. trans. p. 163. are the same el­ders that the scriptures in Greeke calleth [...] and in the bishops letters of orders, they call them by the name pres­biteri: vvhich tearme, though in English you sound it priests, elders, ancient seniors or ministers, it is the same office which is described by the holy ghost, Tit. 1. and in other places of scripture. Conf. of the Rhem. pa. 46 Againe, VVe refuse not the name priest as it com­meth of presbiter, &c. it is odious to some that knovv not the true Etimologie thereof. Ibid. pa. 210. Againe, The name priest, as it is de­riued of the Greeke, vve do not refuse it. Again, It appeareth by many places of VVicklifs vvorks, and namely in his homi­lie vpon Phil. 1 that hee acknovvledgeth the destinction of bishops and priests, Ibid. p. 339. for order and gouernment, although for doctrine and administration of sacraments they are all one. Againe,Defence of the Engl. trans. pa. 185 Ibid. In the fathers, Episcopus and Presbiter, Bishop and Priest, are tvvo distinct degrees. And againe, In the fathers the vvord Presbiter is one degree only, that is subiect to the [Page 396] Bishop. Whereas therefore maister Cartvvright with his followers, do pretend that they propound nothing which the writers both old and new, for the most part do not af­firme, and the examples of the primitiue churches con­firme. As that where the ancient fathers and ecclesiasticall histories make mention of bishops and priests, they vnder­stand by bishops, his parish parsons; and by priests, his counterfeit Aldermen: beleeue both him, & all that glaine after him therein, as they deserue, and as by the premisses you shall iudge there is cause.

ABout the yeare 420, there fell a great conten­tion betwixt the bishops of Affrike, and Zo­simus the bishop of Rome. The point in que­stion, was this: whether it was lawfull for them of Affrike to appeale from the procee­dings of their owne bishops to the bishop of Rome. Vpon which occasion partly, there was a councel held in Affrike, tearmed the sixt councell of Carthage, wherein S. Augustine was present. The bishop of Rome hearing of this councell, and that it was assembled especially about that matter, sent thither his factors▪ Faustinus bishop of Potentia, with other two priests of Rome, Philippus and Asellus. In this coun­cell, when the sayd question began to be debated, the bi­shop of Romes factors (being for their wit and learning, [Page 397] three of the especiallest men that Zosimus could find out, for such a purpose) did deale most expresly against the bi­shop of Affrike, for the prerogatiue and iurisdiction of the see of Rome. In all the which contention, notwithstanding the sayd factors were such excellēt men, & vsed the strēgth of al the wit and learning that was in them, yet they could not find any one argument, in all the scriptures, nor in all the fathers, nor in all the world, whervpon they might in­sist, but did wholy rely vpon a pretended cannon of the councell of Neece. Which cannon, after much trouble, many letters written, and answers receaued, was prooued to their faces, by the said Affricā bishops, to be a most false and a counterfeit cannon. At this time these arguments for the Popes authoritie had neuer bene heard of. Neyther thou art Peter: nor, confirme thy bretheren: nor feed my sheepe: nor, vnto thee vvill I giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen: nor any of the rest, which now are alleaged out of the scriptures. As the bishops of Rome by their practises did grow in greatnesse: so their parafits by their flattering, did draw and wrest the scriptures to maintain their pride. In as much, that of later times, euen as children do imagin that the bels do ring, whatsoeuer they will sing: so there is almost nothing in the scriptures mētioned, no not from the sunne in the firmament, to a peece of siluer found in the mouth of a fish that was catched with an angle in the sea: but that the scholemen, and other popish writers, do presently conceaue with themselues, that it tendeth to the setting forth of the popes great power & glorie. You haue heard in the second chapter, by what arguments M. Caluin induced the ministers & magistrats of Zuricke, and so like­wise (as I take it) of the other three cities there mentioned: to write (as they did) for the obtaining of his presbytery [Page 398] at Gene [...]a. It th [...]n sufficed him, that they were content to say but thus much for his sake: that this platforme of disci­pline, did cast but an eye as it were, toward the word of God. He neither vrged them with the Iewes Sanedrim, nor with their sinagogues, nor with tell the Church, nor with the elders that rule wel, nor with any such persuasiōs. It is true, that although when hee first deuised that plat­forme, 1537. I suppose he had not thought of many places in the scriptures, wherevpon he might build it, yet before his sayd practises with them of Zuricke, 1553, &c. hee had in some of his commentaries and other writings, made mention of those places specified: but yet hee had done it very modestly, rather thereby to prooue his owne plat­forme to be lawfull, than to impeach the forme of church-gouernment, allowed of and established, in any other re­formed churches. So as, when he dealt with them of Ti­gurine, for as much as he himselfe was persuaded that the forme of discipline then at Geneua, was not onely in it selfe lawfull, but for that place also, most fit and conuenient, he alleaged not any one text of scripture for the continuance of it there, but onely shewed what mischiefe would ensue in that place, if it were abolished: and therefore craued their assistance in manner and forme, as he gaue them direction. Marrie after it was by his means more fully established: then for the better preseruation of it, you would hardly be­thinke it, what wringing and wresting there hath since bene made of the scriptures, to vnderprop it, with this translation, with that note, with such an interpretation, and with such a collection. In so much as now there is seldome mention made of elders in the old or new testament, of the words, congregation and church, of the greatest and chee­fest iudges, of bishops, of rulers, of thrones, and of the king­dome [Page 399] of Christ, but maister Beza, Iunius, Danaeus, Cart­vvright, Trauers, and all their schollers: do thinke they heare a sound that ringeth out most plainly in their eares, a formall peale of their presbyteri platforme.

Hauing occasion to talke vpon a time, with an artizan of Kingston, about his refusall (after the purest fashion) to be examined vpon his oth: because I saw how peart hee was, & rapt out text vpon text (full ignorantly God know­eth): I was so bold as to examin him in the second petition of the Lords praier, demaunding of him, what he thought was meant by this word, kingdome, ther [...] mentioned. Whereunto he made in effect this answer, without any staggering: VVe pray (sayth hee) that our heauenly father, vvould at the last graunt vnto vs, that vve might haue pa­stors, doctors, elders, and deacons in euery parish▪ and so be go­uerned by such elderships, as Christs holy discipline dooth re­quire. And surely as it was with this fellow, so is it with the most of those, that talke so much of reformation, (as well with the schollers, as with very many of their mai­sters) put them out of their theame of rayling against the orders of our church, and of extolling the pretended plat­forme of their counterfeit discipline: and for other points which are of the substance of religion, you shall find them most ignorant. And (as I take it) the reason thereof is this: because they haue found this phantasticall deuise, magnifi­ed and extolled so exceedingly, by a most lewd applicati­on of all those places of scripture (in a manner) vnto it, which are written of the spirituall gouernment of the ho­ly ghost, in the harts of the faithfull (as hereafter it will fur­ther appeare vnto you) that they almost care for no other points, so as they can bable of discipline, and whet their tongues like rasors, to wound all those that do impugne it.

[Page 400] You may remember, that in the fift chapter for the fin­ding out of the beginning and institution of this pretended eldership, we were carried by degrees, first to the return of the Iewes frō their captiuitie, thē to M [...]ses time, & thirdly almost to the daies of Noah, they might as well haue brought vs within a generatiō of Adā. Now according to these deuises, the scriptures are framed to serue euery one of their purposes. For the manifestatiō where of, I wil take no very long course, nor enter into any ful discussing of those places, which I find to be peruerted (that worke being per­formed alreadie, in diuers learned mens writings, and as it wil appeare to al the world more fully hereafter) only my meaning is, that ye might perceaue, and still obserue, how agreeably al things concur together in the building & set­ting out of their disciplinary Babel. It is nothing els, but (as oft I haue sayd) a meere fantasticall dreame. And therefore by Gods prouidence, that men might the better discern it, and so take heed, least they should be deceiued with such a vanitie: it is framed according to the nature of such a fancy, with discords, contrarieties, disagreements, nouelties, with stretching & straining the scriptures, as ech mā is disposed: & I know not, with how many paltries, & vnlearned de­uises. Cartvvright, who hath out-run his fellowes a very great way,Exod. 4.2 [...]. pretendeth, that he is able to hammer his elder­ship out of the 4 of Exod. because Moses and Aaron, when they came into Egipt, did cal together, as God had cōman­ded thē, the elders of the children of Israel. Here you heare indeed, that there is mention made of elders. Wherevpon Cartvvright finding that name (after one or two vnlikeli­hoods brought out by him) wil needs persuade vs that by those elders, that are meant in that place, such like church­aldermen must be vnderstood as he and his fellowes h [...]ue [Page 401] dreamed of. But herein, he is not like to haue any good suc­cesse. For Nicholas Gallasius, a Geneuian, to the vttermost, who hath written a cōmentary vpō that booke, doth hold it for a certaintie, that such elders are vnderstood in that place, as did rule the people,Gal. in Ex [...]. 3. doctrina et exemplo, by doctrine and exāple: which should rather agree to those that were preachers, then to Cartvvrights vnt [...]aching elders. If this interpretation notwithstanding, shal [...]ot be thought su [...]fi­cient to encounter with Cartvvrights: then heare further two or three besides. [...]el. in Ex [...]. 3. Pellicane & Simlerus, are both of opi­nion, that neither Gallasius preachers, nor Cartvvrights al­dermē,Sim [...]in Ex. 3. are meant there by Moses, but indeed such elders as were ciuile gouernors, senators, & princes of the people. And vnto these two for an [...]speciall aduantage, I may ad a sur­passing testimony of no common person, but such a one as will bring in with him a Rabbin, to assist and maintaine as much as he will tell vs. Cornelius Bertram, in his booke de politia Iudaica, dedicated to Beza, & printed at Geneua 1580 (with his approbation I doubt not) writeth a whole chap­ter, of purpose to proue that the said elders were ciuile ma­gistrats. Haebreos politiā ciuilē, &c. That the Hebrewes had a ciuile gouernment in Egypt it appeareth, because vvhē Moses vvas to go into Egypt, De poli [...]. I [...] ca. 5. he had a commandement frō God, that he should go to the elders, &c. VVho (sayth Bertrame) vvere the rulers, moderators and gouernours of that Aristocrati­call common vvealth. For the which his iudgement, beside sundry reasons of his own there set down, he alleageth also the testimonie of Aben Hezra. So as now, except Cart­vvright or his adherents in this point, shal hereafter find a more probable likelihood, then hitherto he hath brought forth, to shew vs their elderships to haue had their being afore the law of Moses, both he & they may shue the goose [Page 402] by these mens opinions, for any helpe they are like to haue for that purpose out of any place in Exodus: In very truth the circumstances of those places which he bringeth, be­ing conferred with that, which is sayd of the same elders, in the former chapter, are so directly against him, as I can but meruaile that euer he durst presume to set downe such a strange assertion, vpon so senselesse and childish a sup­posall.

And now as concerning the second sort, that content thēselues to looke no further for their elderships, then vn­to Moses time, for as much as they haue many mo shewes and pretenses to dim mens sights withall, then the former sort haue yet inuented: I will take an aduantage which is layd before me, for the better opening vnto you of their iarres and disagreements, about those places which are brought out of Moses, and out of some other parts of the old testament. Maister Beza acknowledgeth Caluin for his maister, and doth euermore tearme him doctissimum inter­pretem, the most learned interpreter. And maister Cart­vvright expresseth as much, but yet more fully. For hee sayth, that maister Caluine is the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred vp, T.C. l. 1. p. 32 for the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures, which hath bene since the Apostles times. In respect of which his excellen­cie (as indeed he was a singular man) maister Cartvvright in another place, maketh this offer to all in effect, that do not like well of the Geneua discipline.T.C. l. 1. p. 33. VVe vvill not re­fuse (sayth he) the iudgement of maister Caluin in any matter that vve haue in cōtrouersie vvith you. Here is surely a faire offer, and no man can desire a more direct issue. But thinke you a man might safely take it? Who is so bold (they say) as blind ba [...]ard? Surely as blind as I am, I will aduenture [Page 403] vpon it. Shall euery thing indeed, bee referred to maister Caluins iudgement? very well.

This is then a controuersie betwixt vs.T.C. l. 3. pa. 40. Maister Cart­vvright, and as many as cleaue vnto him, do affirme, that the eldership vvas ordained, & in practise before the lavv. We denie it. Let maister Caluin be the iudge. So likewise I do say againe, to as many as depend vpon maister Beza, if they will ioine with vs in the same issue, as reason is they should, maister Caluin being their leaders maister, and the most learned interpreter of the scriptures.Beza. de presb. pag. 104. &c. Beza, and all such as are tied to his sleeue, do hold it (as I suppose) as an infallible ground for discipline, that Moses did institute this (pretended) eldership, which we denie: and let maister Caluin be the iudge. A number of places are brought out of Moses bookes, and out of the Chronicles, and Prophets, by Beza, Cartvvright, & all their schollers: for the proofe of such an eldership to haue bene in those times. But we are fully resolued, that all those places which they bring for that purpose, are wrested from their right meaning, and do constantly denie, that there was euer any such el­dership in being, in those times. And therein also wee say, let maister Caluin be the iudge. Although peraduenture there may be diuers, that will refuse to stand vpon this tri­all, as attributing more skill in the scriptures to Beza, and to themselues, then they do vnto maister Caluin: yet Cart­vvright is surely bound, to stand to his offer. Now then, what Caluins iudgement is in all these points: it is necessa­rie to be considered. Surely you haue heard it before in the fift chapter.Cap. 5. pa. 81. The summe whereof is this: that the sayd pre­tended eldership was neuer thought of in the world, till after the captiuitie. And the reason why then it was or­dained, he sayth, was this: vz. because it was not lawfull [Page 404] for them at that time to create a king. As though he should haue said that, if the Iewes might haue had a king accor­ding to their former custome in times past, such a manner of gouernement had neuer bene once thought of. Where­as therefore Beza, Cartvvright, and the rest that contend so eagerly for the Geneuian discipline,T.C. lib. 3. p. 4. &c. Bez. de pres. p. 102. &c. do fill the margents of their bookes with sundry texts out of the old testament, as out of Exod. 4.29. and 17.5. Deut. 1, 15. and 17.12.2. Chr. 19.8. Iere. 19, 1. Ezech. 8.1, &c. where there is speech of elders, senates, and seates of iustice. Maister Caluin, you see hath giuen sentence against them, and doth in effect with Era­stus, expound all those elders of the people, & all those con­sistories or senats (for ought I can find) to be ciuile officers, and ciuile courts, appointed for the ciuile gouernment of that people and nation. Besides also in the place of Leuiticus concerning the priests office, of putting a difference be­tween the holy & the vnholy, between the cleane and the vncleane (from which words maister Beza is enforced to set the institution, and iurisdiction of his eldership) maister Caluins exposition is there in like maner altogether against him, and wholy agreeth with Erastus mind. vz. that ther­by Moses meaning was (as it is word for word set downe by the prophet Ezechiel) that the priests should teach the people out of the law what was holy, what vnholy; what cleane, what polluted: and that as Malachy saith, the priests are and ought to be the interpreters of the law. Now, if maister Beza, maister Cartvvright, and the rest, will stand to maister Caluins iudgement, who is so excellent an inter­preter of the scriptures, what shall become of their elder­ship? Neither Moses, the Chronicles, Ieremie, nor Ezechiel, can helpe thē: and to haue Erastus expositions thus iustifi­ed, and theirs reiected, I suppose they will not indure it. Their only shift then, & plea must needs be, as I take it, that [Page 405] first wher they extolled M. Caluin so highly, for his inter­pretation of the scriptures, their meaning was alwaies to except themselues, and secondly as concerning their offer, that they are yet content (if we wil, to refer it to M. Caluins iudgement, whether there ought to be an eldership or not in euery parish. Marrie for the proofes that must vphold it, for the time of the institution of it, and for such matters, therin they will leaue him, as neuer meaning to be iudged by him in those points, which is, as though the eye and the eare should say, the one that it could see better, & the other that it could heare better, then he himselfe that made, both the eye and the eare. Wel, I am fully persuaded, that if M. Caluin were now again at Geneua, but for 3 or 4 daies, and should find M. Beza with al his partakers, Cartvvright, Iu­nius, & the rest, so mightily plunged for the maintenance of his deuise, as that they shuld be driuē some of thē to run into Egypt, some into the wildernes to mount Sinay, some they know not whither, and al of them to run so far out of his paths, he would be greatly offended, & much amased at the matter: could he take it in any good part, that Beza spe­cially, being a man whō he had made such choise of, to be a principal defender of the cōsistoriall discipline, should by his intermedling with the gouernment of other churches, haue pulled so many men vpon him, as that for the defense of his own at home, he should be driuē to seeke the first in­stitution of it in Leuit. 10. v. 10. & either there to hunt it out, or to giue it ouer in the plaine field. Surely there is great reason he should. But what is that to me? otherwise then that you thereby might be informed, what constant hold their pretended holy elderships haue hither to found in the old testament, and how they agree in the interpretation of such scriptures as should sustaine them.

[Page 406]Lastly, as touching maister Caluins own opinion, for the institution of his eldership after the captiuitie of the Iewes, there doth not come into my memorie at this pre­sent, any especiall place alleaged by him, out of the scrip­tures to that purpose. Neither do I find in him so much, as that God did euer command this Sanedrim which hee speaketh of, to be euer erected. Only he sayth, Hoc legitimū fuit Deo (que) probatū regimē, Cal. math. 18. They are a lavvful regimēt, & al­lovved of God. Allowed of God, not commanded. I know that Cartvvright & some others,T.C. lib. 3 pa. 40. do bring for the cōtinu­ance of their pretēded elderships, after the captiuitie, certain places out of Ezra & Nehemiah, I.B. polit. p. 101. wher ther is mētion made of the cheefe of the fathers and of elders,Ezr. 1.5. & 2.68. & 10.8. likewise of certain that stood by Ezra, Nehe. 8.4.7.9. whē he preached to the people, but the places are so apparantly wrested, as no man that readeth them, can be so dull, but he must needs discerne it. But I meruaile,Cal. in Math. 18. what maister Caluin meaneth, when attributing to the Sinedriū or councel erected by the Iewes, after their returne from Babylon: Censuram morum & doctrinae, The censure of maners and doctrine. In another place (where he speaketh of the sayd constitution, or erecting of it) hee af­firmeth,Cal. in Nu. 2. v. 16. that the 70 elders which vvere from time to time chosen, to be of the Sanedrim, vvere of the stocke of Dauid, and of their former kings. I hope they will not say, that consequently their counterfeit elders, ought all of them to be of the blood roiall. But breefely for this matter of the Sanedrim, or courts of iustice, after the captiuitie, I cannot iudge them to be any other, then such courts and assem­blies, as were before ordained by Moses, and had to do as well in ciuile caules,Sutcl de presb. c. 9. Sutcl. of disc. ca. 4. sec. 1. as ecclesiasticall, as it may at large ap­peare to those, that will take the paines to read some part of doctor Sutclifs bookes, whither for this time, if they [Page 407] list, I send them. And so leauing any further to trouble you with this disciplinarie harmonie, drawne by the eares out of the old testament: I will come to the new.

Many things haue bene spoken of throughout the whole course of this booke, which might be fit for this place, as their iarring and disagreement in euery chapter, almost hitherto, which alwaies doth rise, because that eue­ry one of them in effect (if he account himselfe to bee any body) will writh and expound the scriptures, as occasions serue, and his affections do moue him. The most of those places in the new testament, that maister Caluin dooth ex­pound, of pastors and preachers only: Beza, Iunius, Cart­vvright, and others of the disciplinarie mould, (and no men els) do wrest, and violently draw them vnto their Al­dermen.1. Cor. 14.32. Act. 10.28. Phil. 1.1. Tit. 1.7. 1. Tim. 3.2. Rom. 15.16. Act. 26.16. They (forsooth) are prophets, to vvhom the spi­rits of other prophets must be subiect: they are bishops, for the feeding of Christs flocke. Of their office it is sayd, that he vvho desireth a bishopricke, desireth a good vvorke. That which S. Paule speaketh of himselfe, as that he is a minister of the gospell, and a vvitnesse appointed of those things, vvhich he had seene, vvhen the Lord appeared vnto him, as he vvas going to Damascus: Iunius will needs extend, to these consistoriall companions. Hereof you may see more in the sixt chapter, where they ascribe vnto them, all those names, that since the Apostles times haue only bene giuen to the ministers of the word. Maister Caluins authoritie is little regarded in this behalfe, euen of those men, who ac­count him the best interpreter of the scriptures that euer was in the world, these 1500 yeares. Cartvvright being pressed sometimes with maister Caluins authoritie, in ex­pounding certaine places, to be meant of pastors and mini­sters of the word, where he will needs thrust in amongst [Page 408] them, his Aldermen, doth vse this wrangling shift viz. that although M. Caluin say, that such ministers are there vnderstood; yet he saith not, that they only are there vnder­stood. By the which maner of euasion, what can be spoken, that may not be peruerted? I do not remember that the scriptures do say in anie place, that Christ had onelie twelue Apostles: and then by Cartvvrights shift we may say, he had as manie, as we list. Certainly he might haue emploied his wit to better purposes then he hath done. God will one day require an account both of him and of all the rest of that packe, that take vpon them so presump­teouslie, not onely to peruert the words and meaning of men, but of the holie Ghost in like manner.

Apoc. 1.20. & 2.1. &c.By the Angels mentioned in the Apocalips; we must not vnderstand the Bishops of those 7. churches, that are there named: But whom (I pray you,) and what? Vnto the Angell of the church of Ephesus: that is, saith Carolus Gallus vnto the pastor:Cha. Gal. in Apocal. ca. 2. Iuni. annot. ibid. Bez. Annot. Apo. 2.1. vnto the Angel of the church of E­phesus, &c. that is, saith Iunius vnto the pastors of the church of Ephesus: vnto the Angel of the church of Ephe­sus, that is, saith Beza [...] that is, vnto the prelate or presidēt, of the presbiterie. Lastly ynto the Angel, &c. that is,I.B. de polit. pag. 160. I.B. ibid. saith, I.B. vnto the presbiterie. To the presbiterie with a mischief? Oh, good words: yea to the presbiterie. How so? sane [...]Angelus dici potuit: Surely the presbiterie may be called corporally an Angell. It is goodly newes. Of like­lyhod, he relieth vpon the Apostles words: where speaking of the diuinitie of our Sauiour:Col. 2.9. Saint Paul saith; that in him dvvelleth all the fulnes of the godhead [...]corporal­ly or bodilie: that is the diuinitie of Christ, and his huma­nitie are knit together substantiallie, and essentiallie. And must we say in like sort: set vp the pretended disci­pline [Page 409] in euerie perish, and then the Elderships so placed in them, and the Angels in heauen will be out of hand essen­tiallie tied and incorporated (as it were) together? What a thing is it that Saint Iohn in one word, should haue so manie and so misticall meanings? Their discipline would blush, if she had anie modestie in her, to see the word of God, for her sake thus vsed.

The only place in the new testament, which they do relie most vpon, and from whence they set all their roiall authoritie, to excommunicat Princes, and to deale with all matters at their pleasures: is that of S. Mathevv where it is thus written:Math. 18. If thy brother trespasse against thee, go & tell him of his fault betvvene him and thee alone: if he hear thee, thou hast vvonne thy brother: but if he heare thee not, take yet vvith thee one or tvvo &c. And if he re­fuse to heare them: tell the Church, &c. Now as con­cerning the exposition of these words: a man would blesse himselfe to consider, how they are incombred. You see there is mention made of some thing that is amisse: and that is done against some bodie. Likewise it is plaine, that the thing which is here mentioned, is to be done either priuately or publikely: and that certaine witnesses are to be vsed. But if you aske them, what things these are against whom they are committed: whether they must be priuate or publicke trespasses: & what kind of witnesses are ment here by our Sauiour: (euerie one of these pointes being of the verie essence of their pretended discipline:) they will tell you their minds, when they know, what to thinke of all these points themselues.

Si peccauerit in te. If thy brother sinne against thee▪ Nay: that is not well translated. You must say: If thy brother trespasse against thee.Geneu. translat. But it were better [Page 410] to translate it: If thy Beza de presb. pag. 50 brother offend or scandalize thee, &c. The word [...] to sinne, in this place, (being referred to men) doth not signifie to sinne, Beza ibid. sayth Beza, but [...] that is, to offend. The word [...] hath in this place his proper signification, that is to Sneca. de dis. p. 461. sinne, sayth Snecanus. Beza, All sinnes or Beza de presb pag. 46 offensions are not here meant, but those only, that are called offendiculae, that is stumbling blocks to mens consciences.Sneca. de dis. pag. 460. Snecanus, All sinnes are here meant, as vvell against God as man; hovvsoeuer they be committed, eyther by violence or by deceit, in vvords, or deeds, of purpose, or vn­aduisedly. Againe Snecanus, Christ speaketh Sneca. ibi. pag. 458. here of iniu­ries committed. Beza, Christ Beza de presb. pag. 57 doth not speake here of any in­iuries committed. Gallasius, Christ Gallas. cōt. Alex. doth speake here of com­mon faults, and not of those vvhich are more hainous, vz. such as tend to the ouerthrovv either of religion, or of the common state. Caluin, Christ Calu. inst. lib. 4. cap. 12. sect. 4. speaketh here of all sorts of sinnes, as vvell small as great, not only of such as are delicta, little offences; but scelera velflagitia, euen the greatest of al. Nay ▪ sayth Beza, Christ Beza de presb. pa. 53. speaketh here of no sinnes, neither great nor small, sauing of the greatest sinne of all sinnes, vvhich is, contumacia aduersus ecclesiam, contumacie against the church: that is the presbiteri. Againe Beza, Beza ibid. pag. 49. Christ speaketh not here of any offence ob priuatum damnum, for pri­uate losse, but of an offense that Gods commandement is broken. But Snecanus sayth, that Christ Snec. de dis. pag. 457. speaketh of iniuries vvhether vve are hurt or sustaine losse.

Si peccauerit in te, If thy brother sinne against thee. Cal­uin, They are deceiued, vvho Cal. est Anabap. Cal. epi. 55. thinke that Christ in this place doth not speake, de secretis delictis, of secret sinnes. Beza, They are deceiued Bez. annot. Math. 18. vvho thinke that Christ in this place doth speake, de priuatis delictis, of priuat sinnes. Gallasius: Fa­cessere Gal. cont. Alex. debet quaestio, &c. the question of publike and mani­fest [Page 411] sinnes, which may otherwise bee punished; away with it. For Christ speaketh here de secretis peccatis, of secret sinnes. Sneca­nus: Christ Sneca. de dis. pag. 460. speaketh heere of all sinnes aswell publicke as pri­uate. And Cartwright: Christ T: C. l. 2 p. 66 speaketh here of priuate sinnes, and then a maiori, of publicke. Hereunto also do ap­pertaine, the other two pointes, vz. against whom any of these sinnes whether priuate or publicke are saide to be committed, and of the witnesses. Against thee. That is, saith Beza, against Beza annot. Ma. 18. de pres pag. 47. another, te conscio: thou knowing of it. One committeth an vnlawfull act, against some other man: thou knowest it, and art thereuppon offended: because in committing the sayde act, hee hath broken Gods commaundement. Against thee. That is, sayth Gallasius: against Gal. cō. Alex thee who art iniured. In te Snec. de dis. pag. 458. laeso: a­gainst thee that art hurte, saith Snecanus. And maister Caluin doth likewise (if I vnderstand him) so expounde that place: against thee: reckoning Cal. in Ma. 18 them contentious men, that say otherwise. But now concerning the witnesses, be­ing a part also of this point in hand.

Since her Maiesties raigne (which the Lorde for his Christs sake cōtinue long ouer vs) there was a great con­tention,Instit. lib. 4. ca. 12. sect. 3. Epist. 55. betweene two Ministers of the French church in London: N. Gallasius, and one P. Alexander: about this verie matter. And as it should seeme; there was partes taking. Maister Caluins opinion is with Gallasius, and maister Bezaes, with Alexander. Caluin and Gallasius (as you haue heard) do thinke; that Christ in this place, whē he saith, against thee, and betweene him and thee alone, and if hee heare not thee &c. doth speake of such a sinne, as no mā knoweth off, but onlie he him selfe, against whom it was committed. Whereuppon it followeth of necessitie, that when Christ sayth: take with thee one or two &c. [Page 412] for witnesses: we must by those witnesses vnderstand wit­nesses of the admonition, which he (who taketh them with him,) must giue in theyr presence, to the partie that had offended. For witnesses of the fact, they could not bee: [...]al. con. Alex: in that they saw it not. So as both maister Caluin, and Gallasius, doe thinke, that here Christ speaketh, de te­stibus admonitionis, of the witnesses of admonition. And Gallasius, amongst other reasons for him selfe: alledgeth this. Non dicit Christus: voca testes, qui rem viderint &c. Christ sayth not, call such witnesses as sawe the trespasse when it was committed: but take one or two. Vnus certe testis ad rem probandam non sufficeret: but one witnes (who may serue as after hee saith, to prooue a mans contumacie or repen­tance) is not sufficient to conuince a man of a fact, if he deny that euer hee committed any such fact. Maister Caluin, being asked his iudgement hereof, by the ministers of Neocomum, as it seemeth: writ vnto them, after this sort: Quod postea &c. Cal. epist. Neo com. 55. That which followeth vz. (if hee heare thee not) hoc nostro iudicio intelligendum est, non de testibus delicti, sed admonitionis: This in our iudgement must bee vn­derstoode, not of the witnesses of the fact, but of the admoni­tion.

Against this interpretation; heare now what Beza & Alexander haue to saie. If this interpretation (saye they) should bee good:Beza de presb. pag. 51, Gal, cōt. Alex. consider then, what inconue­niences would followe of it: I will set downe two; and so referre you to Beza, for the rest. It maye fall out oftentimes (saie they in effect,) that the partie delinquēt, confessing his fact to him, that came first vnto him, to admonish him of it, wil afterwards, when he shal bring one or two witnesses with him, denie that euer [Page 413] hee eyther did, or confessed anye such deed? And what then? Besides, it maie well inough come to passe, that hee vnto whom a man shall come, in such a charitable sorte, to admonish him; maie burst foorth in­to a choller, and saie, that hee is slaundered: and so cal­ling the said man (for his godly minde) into the law, as a slaunderer, make them witnesses of his pretended slaun­der, that came to be witnesses of his admonition. For these reasons therefore,Alex. cō, Gal. Beza. and for some other; Beza and A­lexander will not admit, that Christ should speake heere of such priuate offences, as none knew but one, but of such us that there might bee some witnesses of them, if the offenders should denie them. So as now in both their iudgements: Christ doth speake in this place, de testibus facti, of the witnesses of the fact.

Peraduenture you can bee heere content, to heare some aunswere to these obiections. They seeme to bee of great difficultie, and to carrie some matter with them:Gal. con, Alex. which may preiudice mayster Caluin and Gal­lasius. But what should men talke of difficulties, when the trueth appeareth. Incommoda et inconuenientia non soluunt regulam: Incommodities and inconueniences doe not (sayth Gallasius) dissolue a generall rule. It maye bee that the partye maie denie his facte, as it hath beene sayde. If hee doe: hee is to bee lefte to the great Iudge. Yea; but hee will take the Lawe against the Admonitioner: as a slaunderer of him. Hee maie doe so indeede (sayth Gallasius againe): and I haue seene experience of it. And there is no o­ther remedie but this: the graue men, that were brought to bee witnesses of the admonition, must [Page 414] tell the Iudge the whole matter, and for what pur­pose they were brought to the plaintiffe. Whereby the Iudge, maye easilye vnderstande the iniurie offe­red: and then, if he fauour the Church, hee will send the partye to the Eldershippe, or Ecclesiasticall Se­nate: or else vz. in effect, that the defendaunt in that action, must beare it off, with his heade and shoul­ders.

It is no meruayle then you see; that our reforminge Generation, should crie out so mightelie, for the newe forme of discipline: it is so substantially compact toge­ther, and at such great vnitie in it selfe. Vnto these caterbraules, and pittifull distractions, I might adde a great heape of other confusions: all of them procee­dinge from such intollerable presumption, as is vsed in the behalfe of that Minion, by the peruertinge, and false interpretation of the sacred Scriptures. But I haue been too tedious alreadie in this matter, and therefore to grow towardes an ende of it. Of all the places of Scripture, which they pretende, to make for such partes of their discipline, as is disliked by the Church of Eng­lande: as either for their Iewish Sanedrim, their parish Bi­shops, their vnpriestlie Aldermen; with their priestlye functions, their Geneuian presbyteries, or Elderships: of all the places of scripture (I saie) which they bring, for that purpose, I professe vnto you as in the presence of God, that I cannot find anie one, but by one meanes or other, they haue cast such a colour vpon it, as was neuer knowen in the Church of Christ, amongst all the aunci­ent godly Fathers, from the Apostles times, till these our troublesome and presumptuous daies.

Well, It is not inough for men to alledge scriptures, [Page 415] except they bring the true meaning of the Scriptures. For as Saint Augustine saith: Heresies, and erroneous opini­ons, August. tract. in Iohn 18. doe not otherwise spring and grow vp, nisi dum Scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene, & quod in eis non bene intelligi­tur, etiam temerè & audaciter asseritur: but when the good Scriptures are not well vnderstood: and because that which is not well vnderstoode in them, is notwithstanding rashlye and boldly affirmed, to be the meaning of them. There was neuer anie thing hitherto so fondly deuised: but the authors of it, did euer pretend they had Scripture for it. For else saith Sainct Ierome:Hier: ad Tit. 1. the garrulity of such persons, non habe­ret fidem, would neuer haue wonne any credite. All sectes and Schismes, haue risen (for the most part) vppon discon­tentment. And this a man may obserue, in the writinges of the auncient Fathers: that as many men doe marrie, and so beget children, before they know how to keepe them: so commonly it hath fallen out, in new & strange opinions. Through pride and vanitie, they haue beene rashlie begotten: before the authors of them did know how to maintaine them. Marrie, when once they had engaged their credits, by broching of this and that, then they euer laboured, not to submitt them-selues and their opinions, vnto the trueth: Sed vt sibi scriptur as ipsi subijce­rent: but (as Augustine saith) that they might bringe the scrip­tures, August. cont. Faust. l. 32. c. 19 to bee in subiection to them. Of the which kinde of men, Saint Hilary also speakinge, sayth: that they interpret the Scriptures, Hil: de Trinit. lib. 2. pro voluntatis suae sensu, according to such a sense as may serue their turnes &c. Which is (as the same Hila­ry sheweth in another place) non expectare, Hil. de Tri. l. 1 [...] not to expecte: for the vnderstanding of those things, which are spoken in the Scriptures, out of the words themselues: sed imponere, but to im­pose a meaning vppon them: non referre sed adferre, not to deli­uer [Page 416] the true sense of them, but to bring a sense of their owne: not a yeelding to the wordes, but a kind of compulsion, inforcement, or violence offered: to make that to seeme to be contained in thē, quod ante lectionem praesumpserit intelligendum, which they presumed should be vnderstood by them, before they read them.

Whosoeuer doe deale with the Scriptures in this sort, well they may speak proud things, exalt themselues, pro­mise mountaines, bragge of the Prophets, of Christ, of his Apostles, and verisimilia mentiri, as many such men in former times haue done: whereby for a season some may be deceaued: but yet as Sainct Cyprian saith: men­dacia non diu fallunt. It will come to passe, as alwaies it hath done hitherto: that after a short time the couering of their deuises, with so many sleights and falshoodes, groweth to be detected: and then they are paid to their vtter discredite, the wages and full hire of such vnrighte­ous dealing.

WE haue Gilby pag 3. Christ and his Apostles, and all the Prophets on our sides: we are Gilby pag. 5: assured wee see Gods glorie. The order T.C. l. 2. Epist that we contend for, is that which God hath left: the euerlasting truth of God. The Ad. 2. pag. 5. matters that wee deale in are Gods, and we may not for our parts leaue them. The Ad. 2. pag. 6. matters we deale in are according to the very will of God. There is Ad. 2. pag. 3. no­thing in our bookes, that should offend any, that either bee or would seeme to be godly. Gods Ad. 2. pag. 59 cause by vs is truely and faithful­ly propounded. No, Ad, 2. pa 38. no, Gods cause is the matter why wee are [Page 417] troubled: well may they confer and yeelde, for neuer shall they ouerthrow the trueth which we vtter. It is not possible T.C. l. 1, pag. 6 for vs to conceale the trueth: wee can doe nothing against it, but for it.

Wee Ad. 2. p. 66. 59 are the poore seruaunts of God: and professors of the Gospell: we Gilby pag. 9 [...] are the poore little ones of Christ: we Gilby p. 34. are the foo­lish things of the world chosen to confound the wise: wee T.C. l pag: 7, pro­pound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teach, the writers both T.C. l. 1: pag: 16: 17. olde and new for the most part affirme, the examples of the Primitiue Church, and of those which are at these daies con­firme. We stay our selues within the bounds of Gods word: wee seeke not to pleasure our selues, but the Lord and our bretheren: we seeke not the admiration of men: we will patiently abide vn­till the Lord bring our righteousnes in this behalfe vnto light: and our iust dealing as the noone day.

We Motion from Scot. pref: A. 4, are of immortall seede: we are the lawfull successors of those men, who through faith quenched the violence of fire: we are those vnto whom the Lorde made this promise: I will not faile thee: we may boldly say, the Lorde is my helper, I will not feare what man can doe vnto me: we are the Gilb, p, 131, 158, chiefe seruaunts of God: most worthy faithfull and painefull Ministers, fee­ders of Christs flocke, vnreprooueable, modest and watchfull. Nowe we the Gilbe, pa. 32, seruauntes of God must reason with you the Pro­ctors of Antichrist. Paul spake frankely Gilby pa, 161 against superstiti­on: so doe these. Paul was accounted a foole in the world: so are these. Paul counted mens traditions dong and drosse, so doe these: They haue one common cause: Paul was persecu­ted, and so are these.

Our Gilby pa, 51; side detesteth sinne and wickednes: preaching the gos­pell with all faithfull diligence. Our Gilby pa, 46 Ministers quietly suffer all euill at the handes of the Magistrates: onely refusing to doe euill at their commaundement: as did Iohn Baptist, Peter, and [Page 418] Iohn the Euangelist, professing they must rather obey God then men. God Adm. 2, pa. 3. knoweth we altogether seeke to doe good. There is Gilby p. 111, none of our side (God be praised) but that he hath some com­petent knowledge of the Scriptures and in life very honest. Ours doe Ibidem. follow Christ, and labour so to doe more and more. They Gilby, p. 112 of the wicked sort take part with their aduersaries, but the god­ly doe ioine with vs. We deserue Adm, 2, p, 16. praise of the law and of the Church of God. Our Adm, 2. pa, 6 zeal (when they raile vnmeasurably) is to be measured with the zeale of Moises, Elias, of the Pro­phets, of Iohn Baptist, of Paul, of the Apostles, of Iohn the el­der, and of Christ.

Indeede, there is almost nothing spoken in the Scrip­tures, to the commendation of the true Prophets, and Ministers of God: or which may well be applied to such as truelie feare the Lord and walke in his waies, but they seeme to appropriat the same vnto themselues, and their followers: with the same faith and sinceritie (I feare) that one in the Gospell (sustaining the person of those which trusted in themselues, that they were iust and despised o­thers) saide: Luke, 18, vz. O God I thanke thee, that I am not as other men, extorcioners, vniust, adulterers: I fast twise in the weeke, I giue Tithe of all that euer I possesse. There is also another reproofe sette downe by the same Euangelist of such kinde of men,Luke, 16, which I wish they maie look in time to escape: Yee are they which iustifie your selues before men, but God knoweth your hearts. To whome though for mine owne part I leaue them to be iudged: yet I haue thought it meete to let you vnderstand what Barrow and Greenewood, not priuately, but in Printe haue published of them: Two men, who peraduenture haue beene themselues of the same minde and integritie, that these presentlie are of: and by their owne harts they doe take [Page 419] vppon them to iudge of these mens hartes nowe.

They (meaning our English Consistorians) are most per­nicious deceauers,Barrowes dis-couery pa: 145 presumptuous pa: 6 shepeheardes, chiefe Rabbines, p. 19 Baalmites, wretched pa: 19 disciples of Caluin: pa: 98 blasing starres, and paragons of the Countrye: new founde Martins saincts, glosing hypocrits with God: fasting pharisaicall preachers, mi­serable guides: counterfeyt p. 109 false prophets: p▪ 45 Sycophants: trencher-priests that will cunningly insinuate into some great noble mans house: Bar: & Gren: against Giffor: pag: 134 Pharisies in precisenes, outward shewes of holy­nes, hypocrisie, vaine-glory, couetousnes, resembling or rather exceeding them. p. 140 Conscience brokers: most p. 174 daungerous and pe­stilent seducers. p. 134 Sectary precise preachers: abalienaters of the harts & minds of the people from theyr pastors, to draw them to themselues.

The perfidy p. 174 and apostacy of these reformists, is great. p. 151 The perfidye and treacherye of these miserable guides: treacherous watchmen, sworne waged marked souldiers of Antichrist: garding his verye throne and person, building the harlotte a false Church. Theyr p: 150 dealing is counterfeyt and corrupt. They intangle Bar: Grenw [...] 134 poore soules by theyr counterfeyt shewes of holynes, grauitie, austerenes of manners &c. These Scorpions so poyson and sting euerye good Conscience, so leauen them with hypo­crisie &c. that such proselytes as are wonne vnto them be­come twofolde more the children of hell, then they were be­fore. They p. 7 abrogate the crosse of Christ.

They put on Bar: 149 an outside of grauitie and good conscience, they make a 145 marchandize of the worde, and an open port-sale of the Gospell. They that 187 sometimes to our seeminge sought Reformation and the kingdome of Christ Iesus, are now become of all others the most pernitious ennemies thereof, dayly stu­dyinge for newe cauills and shiftes, to hide theyr wretched­nes. They p. 108 suppose themselues to bee those seruaunts of Christ [Page 420] that are persecuted. These p: 50. disguised hypocrits: these raue­ning wolues, which come to vs in sheeps cloathing, vnder glori­ous and swelling titles of Pastors, Teachers, and Ministers of the gospell, men of great learninge, of verye holy life, and of great sinceritie, seekers and sighers for reformation; and such as abhorre and crye out against the Bishops, and theyr procee­dinges &c. These p. 50. pharisies, these Sectaries are they, which misleade the people in theyr crooked and by pathes of death, and will neyther leade them, nor suffer them to enter into the peaceable and straight wayes of the Lorde: but keepe them al­wayes learning, and neuer bring them to the sight or acknow­ledging of the trueth. These Prophets by theyr p. 99: preachments and long pharisaicall prayers doe soder the people in theyr sinne, and wearie God with theyr abhominable prayers, and hy­pocritishe fastes, counterfeyting a great sorrowe and heauines for theyr sinnes, afflicting theyr soules for a peece of a daye, bowinge downe the heade as a bulrushe. Wee pag. 142. finde not onelye the markes of false Prophets, which are recorded in the Scriptures vppon them: but euen Sathans vttermost deceits and effectuall delusions amongst them, suborninge and trans­forminge them, as if they were Ministers of righteousnes, ta­king vnto them, the names and titles of Christs Ministers, preachers of the gospell, seekers of reformation, &c. whereby hee deceaueth the world.

These things I haue repeated, not because I delight in such outragious deprauations, of any that professe christianitie: nay I do vtterly mislike them. And it argu­eth of what season those vessels are, frō whence they pro­ceed. But I did collect them together for this principall purpose: that therein we might magnifie the iudgemēts of God, when we see apparantly with our owne eyes, the execution of that his most inuiolable sentence:Luke 6. with what [Page 421] measure ye meate: with the same shal mē measure to you againe. For although the former sorte of men, in seeking of the Geneua Discipline, doe set out themselues (as you haue hearde) for the Saincts of God, (as I trust some of them are) and for men especially sanctified: yet haue manye of them brought foorth most vnsanctified fruites: cru­ell speaches, proude things, scurrilous gybes, many cur­sings, much bitternes, and a huge masse of most slaun­derous calumniatiōs; to the discrediting of those things, which either they knew not, or will not know them: and of those persons, whom they were bounde in con­science to haue reuerenced and honoured. And now euen in the same manner, they are repaied againe, into their own bosomes (as you haue heard) by men of their own trayning vp,1. Tim: 1 and such as haue admired them: vt dis­cant non maledicere: that they may learne to rayle no more.

IT is founde practise of prel▪ D. 2. to bee the onely bonde of peace, the bane of heresie, the punisher of sinne, and mayntayner of righteousenes. It is motiō p. 46. pure, perfect, & full of all goodnes, for the peace, wealth, and honor of Gods people, & is ordayned for the ioy and happines of all nations. It is the motion p 84 right stuffe and golde for building the Church of Gods. It is tearmed motion p 69 the vene­rable doctrine of discipline, the most L. disc. pag, 8, beautifull order of ecclesiasticall regiment: The substantiaell Count. p, 29. forme of Christs gouern­ment: Christs motion p. 4 [...] kingdome, Gods Ibidem p 34 gouernment. This would [Page 422] Ibidem p. 84. make the Church a chast Spouse, hauing a wonderfull bright­nes as the morning: fayre as the moone, pure as the sunne, and terrible as an armie with banners. This gouerenment is Epist, before the supp. A, [...], the scepter, whereby alone Christ Iesus ruleth amongst men. The Mart. iunior thes, 14. Churches of God in Denmarke, Saxonie, Zu­rich, &c. wanting this gouernement, are to bee accounted maymed, and vnperfect. The establishing T.C. li. 1, pag. 3. of the presbyte­ries, is the full placing of Christ in his kingdome. It is the blade motion 49, of a shaken sworde in the hande of the Cherubins, to keepe the waye of the tree of life. It is called Regist. pa. 68 by the Apo­stle the grounde and piller of trueth. I denye Briefe dis. a­gainst R:B. serm, pag 15. not but the true gouernment of the church by the Eldershippe, may haue the most of those titles truely attributed vnto it, wherewith the visible church vnder the new testament is adorned. God hath ordayned the ciuile magistrate for the ecclesiasticall state, therefore is the supreme kingdome of God in this world,. It is the chiefe throne of all excellencie, wherein God him selfe doth sit. The politicall Empyre is but a subalterne regiment, et quasi inferius quoddā subsellium, Rennecherus in psal, 2, p. 72. & as it were an vnder Court, that determineth and decideth iniuries, strifes, and contenti­ons &c. idque ad ecclesiasticae oeconomiae praescriptum, and by the commaundement of the ecclesiasticall gouernement. Those Ministers that preferre the ciuile magistrate before the Eccle­siasticall, Rennecherus ibidem pag 74 they flatter him for profit, and theyr bellies sake, and do shamefu [...]ly, to the daunger of theyr owne soules deceiue him. The Ecclesiasticall discipline, est inspectatrix et custos, the ouerseer and keeper of the ciuile regiment: that the magi­strate doe not commaund his subiects any thing eyther contra­rye to Gods worde, Ibidem pa. 78 or against nature and honest manners. It is true that was begonne to bee affirmed, vz. that the spiri­tuall iurisdiction, Ibidem pa, 37, doth in price and dignitie so farre ouer­weigh the politicall, as the soule excelleth the bodye. The [Page 423] spirirituall and ecclesiasticall gouernement (by Pastors,Rennecher. in 2. psal, p., 71. Beza de exco. pag. 4 Do­ctors, and Elders,) is as much superiour and more worthy, then the politicke regiment, as heauenlye benefittes doe excell earthly commodities. Presbyterium est interpres Dei: the presbyterie is Gods interpreter. I B. Beza de pres: pa 1. 24 The Eldership may bee cal­led [...] that is, bodilie an Angell.

The Presbytery is erected vp, pro Christi tribunali, for Christs tribunall seate.

Hee that will reade, of the further commendation of this manner of Church-gouernement: let him peruse some parts of Trauerses defence of the Ecclesiasticall dis­cipline.def: pa. 122 One thing I maie not omit: for the which he extolleth some reformed Churches (as hee tearmeth them) where the Elderships doe most florish, aboue the Skies: insomuch as hee saith: the examples of it might make an Infidell and vnbeleiuer fall downe on his face, and confesse, that vndoubtedlye God is amongst them, and in the middest of those churches. def: pa. 127 I dare saie you are desirous to know, what rare, excellent, and celestiall thing that shold bee, which is sufficient to woorke such a wonder. You haue heard howe Rennichere, hath exalted their Elder­ships or new papacie, aboue all kings and kingdomes: and now you shall see a singular proofe of it. To keepe you in suspence no longer, this wonderfull thing that Trauerse speaketh off is this: vz. that (as it seemeth) some of the said Churches, so highly by him commen­ded, haue by vertue of their discipline; excommunica­ted alreadie some great princes or Kinges. If he had not himselfe published this matter in print, and propoun­ded the same as a president for the honour of his disci­pline: I would not haue presumed (yee maie be sure) to haue touched it. Neyther yet will I further med­dle [Page 424] with it: then onely to set downe his wordes. After a long discourse, how, where there discipline is on foote, there is nothing in effect amisse: no priuate administra­tion of the sacraments: no baptizing or reading of ser­uice by Deacons: no commutation of pennaunce: no respect of persons: he saith thus.Ibidem

Memorable is that rare, but right christian example of The­odosius the Emperor, publicklye humbling himselfe vnder the hande of God, and professing his repentance for his bloodye commaundement, and the cruell execution done accordinge to it. A president well worthy so christian a prince, the ho­nour of the Discipline, yea and of the whole church of that age. Such Theodosians haue the reformed churches of this age to speake off, to the high honor of almighty God, and his on­lye begotten sonne Christ Iesus, king of kinges. Wherein a Prince of bloode royall, and by birth within a step or two to one of the greatest Kingdomes of these partes of the worlde, and for princely giftes, worthy to haue borne a Scepter in his hande, and a Diademe vpon his heade, when as another Dauid, hee hadde been ouerthrowen by Sathan, and committed things, for which the name of God was euill spoken off, endured to heare the seruant of God (as Dauid did Nathan) to rebuke him: & lamenting his offence openly before the publicke assembly of the Church, desired pardon of God, and reioyced heauen and earth, men, and Angels with his conuersion from sinne, to the obedi­ence of the liuing God blessed for euer, Amen. Whose chri­stian president, both a crowned King, and also a worthie sonne of that noble Father, haue followed, after that by terror of as barbarous crueltie, as hath beene commited in any age, they had done otherwise then Daniell, and the yonge princes brought: vp with him did, in a case not vnlike to theyrs, &c. Hitherto [Page 425] Trauers. And what this importeth iudge you. I will aunswere no questions: who these Theodosians are. As princes like it: let them allow it.

And thus of the commendation of this gouernment: which if it were true indeed, and that it had by any law­full title so Regall an authority, as here you see is preten­ded, who would not almost fall downe and worshippe it. But you must belieue them with discretion. Men that thinke they know this platforme as well, as the best of those that haue extolled it: do carrie a farre differing opinion of it. And therefore they haue been bold to write of it, as followeth.

It is a sillye Bar. p. 241 Presbytery or Eldership. A sequestred Bar: Grē: 169 withdrawen Presbyterye. A sweeping Bar: 92 new reformation. A presumptuous Bar: Gren. 79 irregular Consistory which hath no grounde in the worde of God. A second Barrow 190 beast. Let them consider Bar: Gren. 79 how far the [...]auinge of such a Consistorie, and Pastor in one Con­gregation, differeth from that Apostolicall sea of Rome, and that holy father that sitteth therein. Of this Bar. Grē: 75 Consistorie through the whole testament they can shew no warraunt. They make Bar. Grē: 7 themselues transgressors of the worshippe of God, disturbers & violaters of that holy order, which Christ hath established in his Church. These deceitfull Bar: 142 workemen not onelye builde theyr owne timber and stubble deuises, but most highly prophane that heauenly frame and gratious gouernement of Christ. In their Bar. 151 leauened and corrupt writings of discipline, and theyr supplica­tions vnto the Parliament, are declared, theyr pernitious forge­ries, and sacrilegious prophanation of Gods holy ordinance. They fetch their [...] reformation from the primatiue defection. That counterfeyt [...] reformation, which these counterfeit preachers pre­tende, is as euill as that which is alreadie. Both these [...] factions, [Page 426] pontificall and reformists, woulde assume the whole gouernment of the Church into theyr owne handes. How can^o these for­gers, these coyners of religion, seeme & sue to cast out the heape of humane traditions, as contrary, and such as cannot bee ioy­ned vnto, or with the testament of Christ: and yet bring in these forgeries of theyr owne. Is it likely Bar: Gren: 75 or possible that our Saui­our Christ woulde fetch his patterne for the Elders of his Church, and the executing of these high iudgements, from that corrupt degenerate Synedrion of the Iewes, which by the institu­tiō of God was merely ciuile, and not ordayned for causes ecclesia­sticall: as appeareth Exod. 18. Num. 11. Deut. 1? The priestes bearing the charge, and hauing the deciding of all ecclesiasticall causes Num. 18. Deut. 17. But this Councell of theyrs, was now mixed of the Elders of the people and the Priestes, and handled all causes, both ciuile and Ecclesiasticall indifferently. Mat. 26.3. Act. 4.5. Bar: Grē: 261. If by the light of Gods word, you examine and mea­sure the secret Classis, the ordinary sette Synods and Councels of ministers (as they tearme themselues) which these reformists now priuilie bring in, and would openly set vp: they shall no doubt be found as new, strange, & antichristiā, as preiudicial to the liber­tie of the Saincts, and to the power, right, and duties of the whole Church, and as contrary to the gospell of our Lord Iesus Christ: as the gouernement by Bishops &c. what shew so euer of former antiquitie, or of present necessitie they may pretend. It is a new, ^r adulterate, forged gouernement in shew, or rather in dispight of Christs blessed gouernment: which they in pride, rashnes, ig­noraunce, and sensualytye of theyr fleshly hartes, most miserablye innouate, corrupt, and peruert. Theyr most exquisite Bar: 220 plots of gouernment, which they can deuise vnto thēselues, are but the instruments of foolish shepeheards to theyr owne perdition, and of as many as are gouerned by them.

[Page 427]There is great difference we may perceiue hereby, be­tweene the opinions of these two sorts of men; concerning this presbyteriall forme of the new pretended discipline. If any that are possessed with the former mens conceites, shall lightly esteeme what this second sort of fellowes doe hold or thinke of their platforme: he is to be put in mind, that they are not so lightly to be regarded. Diuerse mini­sters well reckoned of heretofore for their learning: are lately fallen from Cartwright, and his secte, into another more new frenzy of Barrowisme. In a letter that was taken not long since: I find some points to this effect. The prea­chers of Midleborow and Flushing, haue both giuen ouer their vnlawfull callings. M. Iohnson hath written a most learned dis­course, concerning the striking of a newe couenaunt, with some conferences had in that country. It is also reported, and I am perswaded, by that which I haue seene, that the report is true: vz. that maister Penry, is entered in like manner into this new kind of couenant. A matter, that would seeme very strange vnto me: but that I know the nature of schis­matickes, to bee of such giddinesse: as that no one thinge will content them longe. What stirres hath hee kept in England: first with his two supplications vnto the high court of Parlaiment: his humble petition vnto her Maie­stie: his exhortation vnto the gouernours and people of Wales: his Theses and libells, which came out vnder the name of Martin and his children (wherein hee with his companion a certaine gentleman were, if not authors, yet especiall dealers) and then with his treatises out of Scot­land. That reformation (hee meaneth the setting vppe of Cartwrightes Eldershippes) is no ennemie to our state: his humble motion (if not made by him, yet procured by him to bee printed): His discouery against D.B. and [Page 428] with diuerse other pamphlets, and most rayling discourses? In all which bookes hee hath shewed such earnestnesse in the behalfe principally, of Cartwrights discipline: that hee hath offered to pawn his life many times for the iustifica­tion of it. Which course of his, by reason of his mer­ueilous vehemency, wrought very greatly, (as all menne knowe) with certaine rashe and vnstaied persons, who haue bene since so farre ouercaried, with an opinion of the argumentes there vsed: as it hath beene giuen out many times by them, that they coulde neuer bee aunswered. And yet now if he bee one of Barrowes church: notwith­standing all his former writings and arguments, you haue heard his opinion, out of his brethrens mouthes: both of Cartwrights presbyteries, and of all those likewise that doe maintaine them.

Some will saie peraduenture: that for Penry, they neuer made anye reckoning of him. And it is well. But what if one of their Patriarckes beginne to wauer? How if mai­ster Trauerse bee inclined that way? For mine owne part: I doe not thinke him so simple a man. But yet you shall heare what goeth abroad amongest that brainesicke gene­ration: as it is set downe in the letter before mentioned. There is good hope (saith the writer of it to one of his frends) of one Maister Trauerse about London, (as I thinke) but howe farre hee is come, or whereat hee stayes, I cannot at this time certifie you. But howsoeuer hee standeth affected, you may assure your selues, that this latter schisme groweth on very fast. In somuch, that as Cartwright and his bre­thren beganne, eight or nine yeares since, to set vppe, and put in practise, theyr Geneuian discipline: so doe these newe vpstartes, beginne to erecte in diuerse places, theyr Barrowish Synagogues, and I knowe not what cages of [Page 249] franticke schismatickes. One Collins a man amongest them, not vnlearned (as it seemeth) doeth write in this sorte hereof. Ecclesia potenti eius dextra adiuta, &c. The church assisted with the mightie right hande of God, hath cho­sen ministers: Maister Iohnson for her pastor: Maister Green­wood for her Doctor: Maister Studly and Maister George Knife, for her Elders: Nicholas Lee and Christopher Browne for her Deacons. The other assembly also (wherevnto are added, Iohn Nicholas: Thomas Michell: Iohn Barnes, and some others with mee.) with Gods assistaunce, will beginne out of hand, to create vnto it selfe ministers.

And thus they goe on forward headlong, god knowes whether. I am perswaded, that if there be not good order taken in this behalf, there wil some mischief grow of it The number of them doth encrease daily more & more. And for the repressing of them; it will not be sufficient (in mine opinion) to vse the ordinarie course by the ecclesiasticall censures or cōmission. For they are entered into a league a­mongest themselues, of all manner of secrecy for the not detecting one of another in any of their proceedinges, when by great chaunce some two or three are met with all. If you finde any writinges amongest them: you may thereby learne some thinge peraduenture: otherwise they will confesse nothinge. And offer them an oathe, not to accuse themselues, but to purge themselues; and as wit­nesses, to signifie their knowledge in those pointes, they are to bee examined off,Rh. Test. act. 23. as touching other mens factes: they haue gotten the Iesuites doctrine (as you may see it in their annotations vppon the Rhemish Testament, and amplifyed lately by Cartwright and his crue,) that they may neyther accuse themselues, nor their brethren, for doynge of those [Page 430] thinges, which they allow off themselues. If their nom­ber should increase; so as they mighte bee able to doe, and set vp what they list, according to one of their grounds. vz. without any longer stayinge for the Magistrate; and so shoulde breake forth into open rebellion; they might by no meanes be examined vpon their oathes, because they will say they haue done nothing, but what they were bound to doe; and that therefore, they might detect no man, wherby to bring him, within the compasse of any law, for doing his duety.

But I will not enter into this matter: the cause I mentio­ned it, is the increasing of this schisme, and their league of fidelitie one to an other. I sayd the number of them would daily bee augmented: and you shall haue my reasons, why I thinke so. They are verily perswaded, that they holde almost nothing, but what Cartwright and his schollers haue taught them. One of them hath taken vppon him, to prooue the chiefest of their newe assertions, by their more auncient propositions. I like well (saith Greenewood in a letter intercepted) of the arguments you haue drawen against them from their own groundes. Againe: Surely it were a notable worke, and no doubt might doe much good in these times, for some one that God hath indued with sound iudgement and sharpe sight, to gather the maiors or antecedents, of all those scattered pam­phlets of Penries or Martins &c. and put newe minors or conclu­sions vnto them: and so in one little nosegay, but as bigg as an al­manack, to turne them vpon them-selues, and present them vnto them, for an answere.

There are two especiall points, for the which we dislike them: their departing from our churches, & the framinge to them-selues of a Church of their owne. And for both these points, heare what they may say, and what indeede in [Page 431] effect they doe say, and consider withall of these thinges, which here I will set downe: as sufficient matter for a mi­nor, that Barrowe may worke vppon. Thus our holy consistorians haue written; vz. That the gouernement of our Church is by the popishe Glby pa. 77. Hierarchy, & so is both Admon. 1. pa. 25. Antichristi­an and diuelishe, that it is accursed, and Hay any pa. 13. that none but traitors to God, doe defend it: that our Gilby pa. 90. religion is patched with the popes: wherby we ioine fire and water, heauen and hell together: that we want a Admon. 1. pa. 2. right ministerie: that in the order Adm. 1. pa. 24. of our seruice there is nothing but confusion: that we eate not the Gilby pa. 2. Lordes supper, but play a pageant of our own, to make the silly soules beleeue they haue an Englishe masse: & Gilby pa. 2. that so we put no difference betwixt truth and falshood, betwixt Christ and Antichrist, betwixt God and the Diuell. A dunghill of such like sayings, might be hea­ped together, which they haue cast vp, out of the froth of their zeale. Where-vpon nowe Barrowe, takinge his ad­uantage; doth frame his argumente in this sorte. It is not lawfull for the children of God to submit themselues to the gouernement of Antichrist, nor to ioyne themselues, to those congregations, which haue in their seruice, no­thing but confusion, and in the Lordes Supper put no dif­ference betweene God and the Diuell. But such is the go­uernement of the Church of England, and such are their congregations. And therefore wee may not submitt our selues vnto that gouernement, nor ioyne our selues to their congregations. If now, the minor were true, which he as­sumeth from the Consistorians: you see how the argument would follow. So that as Penry & some others haue done allready: let all the sort of the other crue adde but Barrowes maiors, vnto their owne minors: and foorthwith in this first pointe they are become meere Barrowistes.

And as concerning the second point wherein (as I sayd) [Page 432] we disalow them: it is, their framing to themselues a new Church platforme. Which doth thus farre agree with Cartwrightes: that they must haue (forsoothe) in eue­rie assembly, their Pastors, Doctors, Elders, and Dea­cons, and that the Church new framed after their fashion, must haue all the authority that Cartwright doth challenge to his Elderships: of dealing in all matters of maners and doctrine, and in executing their censures against any per­son without exception whosoeuer. The chiefe differen­ces that are betwixt them, are generally two. The first is vz: that whereas Cartwright, could haue been conten­ted to haue erected his Elderships in euery parishe, taking them as nowe they are: they say the parish assemblies are popish and vnlawfull: they would haue them dissolued: and they will haue their Elderships set vp amongest no people, but first they must enter into a new couenant. The other chiefe difference in like sorte I take to bee this: that Barrow in all his platforme, will haue the people to ioyne with their Elderships further, then Cartwright doth allow of. And for his opinion heerein hee relyeth altogether in effect vpon Cartwrightes grounds.

It is not vnknowen what a plausible course our English Disciplinarians haue taken, that thereby they might the more easily drawe the people vnto them. Hee that will peruse the first admonition, which Cartwright maintai­ned,T. C. lib. 1. pa. 35. lib. 2. pag. 325.121.221.225.226.229 &c. and consider withall, the places of his bookes that are noted in the margent: shall well perceiue, howe earnestly they intitle the people to a wonderfull interest in Church matters. They tell the people, that they are greatly iniuried in this and that: that they ought to choose their Ministers: that imposition of handes should bee in their names: that the censures of the Churche [Page 433] were to bee executed with the peoples consent: and what must bee done almost, but the people must haue an oare in it. Howbeit: (all this great shewe of gratify­ing the people notwithstanding:) Cartwright by snat­ches heere and there doth so powder his matters:T. C. lib. 284.193.213. &c. that in effect hee giueth them onely an emptie bottell to play withall. For his Eldership (forsooth) must go before the peo­ple in all their actions: that is, as though hee should haue said: what the Elderships thinke meete, those Angels, those interpreters of God, those tribunall seates of Christ, the people in all reason ought to content themselues with it, and to giue their consentes vnto it.

Now heereupon Barrow, proceedeth. Hee taketh Cart­wrightes reasons in the behalfe of the people: but denieth his shiftes to be currant, whereby he would take that from them againe, which hee had before giuen vnto him. And thereupon doth raile vpon him, and all the rest of that asso­ciation: for such their dealing and abusing of the people. These reformistes (saith Barrow) for fashion sake giue the peo­ple a little libertie to sweeten their mouthes, Bar. Discoue. pag. 195. and make them be­leeue they should choose their owne Ministers: yet euen in this pretended choyce do they coozen and beguile them, leauing them nothing but the smoakie winde of election onely. Againe. The counterfait reformistes, they woulde exclude the Church from the censures: assuming them onely into their owne handes: either into the Priestes handes with his silly presbytery or El­dership, which hee ouerruleth at his pleasure in euery particular congregation: or else into their Synodes and Councelles, which haue power ouer all Churches, and euerie member and action thereof to excommunicate and absolue, to make & depose, to or­daine and abrogate without the priuitie or consent of the Chur­ches, [Page 434] &c. And thus they subuert the libertie of the Church: and peruert the ordinance of Christ. And againe: Howe vnnatu­rall are those members, which thus separate and seclude them­selues, Bar: against Giff. pag. 76. yea rather sequester and seclude the whole from them: and arrogate and assume the publicke dueties and power of the whole, into their owne handes: as though God had giuen all giftes vn­to them: and they had no neede of others? And thus puffed vp with preheminence of theyr owne place, and excellencie of their owne giftes: they despise all the rest, as base, ignoraunt, vnworthye to bee in their consistorie, to haue any voyces of consent or dissent there, alledging them to bee tumultu­ous, contentious, factious, vngouerned, ignoraunt, inclined to the worst, &c.

And this is (as I said) the second especiall difference (as far as I can see) betwixt the Elder Consistorians, and these new Schismaticks. Wherinto how easily a man may fall, that hath digested, the Geneuian and Cartwrightian preten­ces made against our Bishops for the peoples interest: I commit the consideration of it, to your owne discreti­ons. So that (as I saide): I say againe, and againe: that if good order be not taken, this schisme will daily in­crease and growe to be daungerous. But doe I call it a schisme? The worde is too milde. They are indeed all the sorte of that infection, a compounded masse, of (I knowe not) how manie heresies: but principally they are Donatistes in some respect, and meere Anabaptistes in some other. I haue thought vpon it a hundreth times, and haue meruailed at it: that the now L. Archbishop of Can­terbury could foresee so directly, what would be the issue of the first admonition. If you would bee pleased to read his exhortation, before his confutation of that admonition: [Page 435] You shall find, that, what he hath there written long be­fore this monster was hatched in England, he could not, if he were to write againe, wel write otherwise then there he hath done: sauing hee might say, that the mischiefe which then he foresaw, would come to passe, by reason of the boulstring of it, by those, that should haue had more wit and iudgement, is now apparantly beginning to shew it selfe to as many as haue eyes and wisdome to see.

Surely those men, that haue bene made instruments heretofore, to commend vnto the whole realme, I know not what bookes and platforms, tending directly to the vt­ter ouerthrow of the present gouernment of the church of England, with the whole forme of our seruice of God, and all our lawes, orders, ceremonies, and priuileges thervnto appertaining, & to haue had the Geneua discipline establi­shed in place thereof: may greatly reioice at their good discretion: considering, that if then they had preuailed, we had admitted of that forme of church-gouernment which the very cheefe supplicators, & instigators of them at that time, do now themselues condemne (as you haue heard) into the pit of hell, and so they might haue bene as readie to haue set forward this second deuise, as they were for the former.

But men I hope will be more carefull hereafter, then to be carried away with euery noueltie, if it haue but any shew of reasonable probabilitie. And maister Cartwright, with the rest of his chiefe adherents, might certainly do God and the church great seruice, if without any longer standing vpon the maintainance of their own credits, they would be content to confesse their former ouersights, in laying downe those false principles, wherevpon the new hereticks do build, and acknowledge the truth, vz. that [Page 436] the present gouernment of the church of England, as both holy and Apostolicall, and that the reformation of religi­on already made, by her maiesties most princely care and heauenly direction, is such a reformation (abuses there may be, and it were heresie to dreame of any puritie) as e­uery good Christian ought to praise God for it, from the bottome of his heart: and not onely to allow of it, but to maintayne and defend it, both with his goods and life. Maister Cartvvright began well in his epistle a­gainst Harrison: but he should do better if hee would so continue and proceede forward. One extremitie is best discerned by the other. Barrovves folly may teach him wisedome. The consequence doth often shew the grossenesse of the Antecedent. And many learned men haue bene brought by the importunitie of such kind of aduersaries, to see their own mistakings, and so to grow vnto a farre better moderation. As euen in the chapter fol­lowing, and in this very cause of discipline, it will appeare I trust vnto you.

IT were very hard, if the fauourers of the Ge­neua platforme, should vrge the same vvith any pretence of necessitie. They talke of pastors, doctors, elders, deacons, widdowes, and of many things els: but as yet, besides [Page 437] their obstinacie, to continue in the course which they haue begun, for the maintenance of their credits: they are not throughly agreed almost in any thing. To tell vs ther­fore of a matter that should be necessarie, and withall to confesse in effect, that they know not what it is: should argue in my opinion, some very great rashnesse and follie. When maister Caluin dealt with maister Bullinger and o­thers, for their good fauour and friendship towards the continuance of his new deuised platforme in Geneua (as you haue heard at large in the second chapter) there was not a word (you may sweare it) of any necessitie, that all o­other churches should be enforced to submit thēselues to that deuise. M. Caluin himselfe at that time (as I am persua­ded) did not so much as dreame of any such matter. A very graue and learned man of the French nation, hath faythfully reported, that when the forme of the Geneua discipline, was first admitted of by the ministers of France, in one of their cheefest synods, which hath bene kept there of late yeares about the Church affaires, it was not then receaued by them in that assemblie, as a necessary or­der prescribed by Christ, that ought alwaies to be conti­nued, but as a forme of discipline, conuenient and fit for the afflicted estate of their churches in those times, which might afterwards bee altered and changed, as occasions should require.

And because you might not doubt of the certayntie of this report. You shall vnderstand, that the author of it was himselfe present in the sayd assemblie, and not a man of the meanest account amongst them. With whom also, another great person of that countrie, a man of state and great learning agreed, when hee affirmed to one of very good place in England (as the same partie [Page 438] hath told me) that the forme of discipline which is now receaued by the French ministers, was neuer meant by them to be otherwise admitted of, then for an interim, till things might be better considered of, and ordered. These testimonies I vrge no further then as reports: neyther would I haue you to giue any further credit vnto them: then as you shall thinke meet, vpon this my bare relati­on. Howbeit whether the persons specified, did make a­ny such report or not: it seemeth to mee, that the thing it selfe is true, which they are sayd to haue reported. For thus I find it set downe in the end of the forme of Ecclesi­asticall discipline agreed vpon by the resolution, Eccl. disc. of France. not of one, but of fiue generall Synods of the reformed Chur­ches of the realme of Fraunce. These articles (say they) vvhich are here contayned touching discipline, are not so decreed vpon amongst vs, but if the profite of the church shall require, they may bee chaunged. But it shall not bee in the povver of one priuate man to do it, vvithout the aduise and consent of a generall coun­cell.

In all maister Caluins time (for ought I find) the ne­cessitie which now is pretended for the consistoriall dis­cipline: was no where insisted vpon. A church in those daies, might haue had all the true notes of the church of Christ: although it had wanted that platforme of Geneua. Maister Caluin in his Institutions could find but tvvo ne­cessary Simbola ecclesiae dignoscendae, Calu. instit. lib. 4. cap. [...]. sect. 9.10. verbi predicationem, & sacramentorum obseruationem: signes of discerning the church: the preaching of the vvord, and the obseruation of the sacraments. Bertrand de Loque in like sort: he was a­ble to bring forth no other substantiall notes of the Church:Bertr. de ec. cap. 3. but those tvvo. No more was Philip of Mornay, [Page 439] the lord of Plessis. He maketh mention indeed of a third marke, vz. the lawfull vocation of pastors: but hee sayth, that,P. Mar. de eccl. cap. 2. it is not a marke of substance. In the great assemblie at Poictiers in France, 1561, vvhere Peter Martir, A Mar­lorat, N. Galatius, and diuers other ministers of the refor­med churches were present: maister Beza being there al­so, and hauing his turne to speake before the king of Fraunce, the queene of Nauarre, the cardinall of Lorraine, and sundrie other bishops hee, durst not insist vpon any other firme and certaine notes of the visible Church of Christ, Cōment. de sta. relig. par. 1. fol. 121. but the two notes mentioned purum dei verbum & sincera sacramentorum administratio, the pure vvord of God, and the sincere administration of the sacraments. There are (sayth hee) some that do adde ecclesiasticall discipline, and the fruits of preaching: sed, &c. duabus illis erimus con­tenti: but, &c. vve vvill bee content vvith these tvvo first. Agreeably to this doctrine, that there are but two necessarie and substantiall marks of the church: the chee­fest learned men in Christendome both abroad and here at home with vs, haue entred into the combat, with the cruell and mortall enemies of true Religion, the pa­pists.

But now it is found out by maister Beza, and some o­thers (forsooth) that all the sayd learned men were decea­ued, and that the platforme of the Geneua discipline, is an essentiall note of the church of Christ, and as necessary as the word of sacraments. If I should deliuer these two points vnto you vpon my bare word, without any further proofe, I thinke you would scarsely beleeue me. Heare therefore my vvitnesses, not to be excepted against I tell you. And first for the pretended necessitie, maister Beza shevving the true markes of the church (saith Cartvvright) [Page 440] addeth to the tvvo former, T. C. lib. 2. pa. 53. the discipline framed according to the vvord. Conf. 5.7 So that vvhatsoeuer necessitie com­meth vnto the vvord and sacraments, in that they are notes, the same commeth also vnto the discipline by maister Bezaes iudgement. And surely that is sufficient. Hee were a pre­sumptuous cōpanion, that would not rest in Bezaes iudge­ment. Well then you see the necessitie of their discipline, now marke the essentialitie of it. In a certaine draught of discipline (whereof you shall heare in the Chapter) agreed vpon, and subscribed vnto, by Cartvvright, and many other ministers of his bent, for a conclusion of that worke, they haue set downe these words. At (que) haec disci­plina, The new booke of dis. &c. And this discipline, the title vvhereof is inscri­bed: The discipline of the church described in the vvord of God, is taken out of the most pure fountains of the holy scrip­tures, and c omprehendeth the necessarie, and [...], that is, essentiall discipline of the church, common for al times. Take that away from any thing, that which is of the essence and being of it, and (as I take it) it presently ceaseth to haue any being at all.

From the conceit of this necessitie of the Geneua disci­pline, these and many other such like speeches, haue bene vttered in printed bookes, to the simple people.

The T. C. l. 2. in the preface. want of the Eldership is the cause of all euill.

It is not T. C. ibid p. 3. to be hoped for, that any Common-wealth will flourish without it.

The T. C. l. 1. pa. 6. & 48. discipline is no small part of the gospell.

It is of the T. C. l. 2. pa. 247. substance of it.

Without this Register pa. 68. discipline there can be no right religiō.

They that T. C, l. 1. pa. 220. reiect this discipline, refuse to haue Christ raigne ouer them. And denie him in T. C. table. Preface to the Demon. effect, to be their king or their Lord.

[Page 441] Scis, &c. you Beza. to Sarnicius. epis. 14. know there is one and the selfe same au­thor of doctrine and discipline, to what purpose therefore should we receiue one part of the word without the other?

In some sense of Defenc. of eccl. dis. p. 7. necessarie, the ecclesiasticall discipline is necessary to saluation.

It is necessarie Defence. 8. in regard of Gods holy ordinance and appointment, the contemptuous breach of whose com­mandements, be they great or little in our account, is dam­nable to all those that despise them.

For Ibid. pa. 33. the vse of the censures, the office of elders is in his place necessarie. The deacons office is not so directly ten­ding to the saluation of the soule. But yet being Gods ordi­nance, it is of the necessitie of obedience.

In effect, the Ibid. pa. 33. ministerie of the censures of the church, is in the same absolute degree of necessitie to saluation vvith the ministerie of the vvord and sacraments.

It is much that hath bene hitherto noted for the preten­ded necessitie of this Sauoyan church-gouernment: but that is most memorable that Trauers affirmeth of the French churches, & of the churches of the low-countries, vz. in effect that it is become alreadie to be one of the arti­cles of their creed. Thus he setteth downe their words following, contayned (as hee sayth) in their confessions. VVe beleeue the true Church ought to bee gouerned by that policie and discipline vvhich our Lord Iesus Christ hath ordayned, Confess fidei minist. Gal. Act. 25. namely so that, there bee in that, Pastors, elders, and deacons. And the Churches of the Low-coun­tries: VVe beleeue that this true church ought to be ruled and gouerned by that spirituall policie, vvhich God himselfe hath taught vs by his vvord: Act. 30. so as there bee in it, pastors and Ministers, Elders and Deacons, vvho may make the Seigniorie of the Church. By that which here is sayd, [Page 442] being compared with that which hath bene sayd before, of our Englishmens pretended deacons (how they are altogether excluded frō hauing any place in their seigni­orie) it appeareth that they disagree from the Churches of Fraunce, and of the Low-countries, in some of the ar­ticles of their beleefe. But you shall heare maister Tra­uers very graue collections vpon the sayd two of those Churches confessions: It is very vvorthie the obser­uation (sayth he) that these Churches, Def. of eccl. Discip. p. 21. vvherein there are an infinite number of godly men, &c. in such a confession as they declare their fayth in: haue thought it a necessarie article, to set dovvne this point of the pollicie or disci­pline of the church: and that in declaring of it▪ they say not vvhat they suppose, but vvhat they beleeue, vsing the same vvord vvhich they do vse in the articles of faith and doctrine.

The papists talke much of the Colliers faith, that be­leeued as the Church beleeued: but what the church be­leeued hee knew not. And truly as Trauers sayth, it is worthy the obseruation indeed, that seing (as I sayd, and haue at large shewed it in the former chapters) there is not a church in Europe, which hath receaued that plat­forme, that can tell for her life, which way as yet to turne her selfe, for the full maintainance of it: there should bee any that would presume to thrust it into their beleefe, ex­cept they do approue of the Colliers faith, and will say, they beleeue whatsoeuer maister Beza beleeueth, al­though neyther he himselfe, nor they do know, what hee beleeueth in that point. I do rather therefore incline to thinke that Trauers wresteth their words against their meaning, and that they only purposed by that phrase of speech (we beleeue) to shew, but their minds and opinions [Page 443] of that forme of discipline, not suspecting that any man would inforce that they euer meant therby to make it an article of their beleefe. But howsoeuer either they or any other haue formerly meant in the heat of their desires, to­wards their beloued platform, and so haue gone much too far in vrging the necessitie of it, as being an essentiall note of the church: yet vpon better aduise, it seemeth that they are growne a little more coole.

Maister Caluin loued the eldership as well as the best of them, because it was the workmanship of his own hands: but yet he thought it not meet, to make it an essential note of the church, or a matter of the importance of saluation. The Anabaptists with whom he dealt in his time,Cal. instruct. ad v. Anaba. kept him from that extremitie, and made him to reuerēce other churches, and to acknowledge them for such churches of Christ, although they wanted the forme of his censuring discipline, as that it was not lawfull for any Christiā who­soeuer, to separat himselfe either from their assemblies, or from the receiuing of the Lords supper with them. But if any so did, he assigneth him his place amongst certain old hereticks. Olim duae fuerunt haereticorum sectae, &c. In times past there vvere (sayth he) tvvo sorts of hereticks, vvhich troubled the Church greatly. The one sort of them vvere cal­led Puritans, the other Donatists. And both of them vvere in the same error, that these dreamers are in: seeking for a Church vvherein there should vvant nothing that might be desired. Therefore they diuided themselues from the vni­uersall society of Christians, least they should be defiled vvith other mens impurities. But vvhat came of it? Dominus eos cum tam arroganticoepto dissipauit. The Lord himselfe scat­tered them, vvith that their proud attempt, Where, by the way, it is meet to be obserued, that a man may sticke so fast [Page 444] to the Geneua discipline, as he may prooue himselfe to bee either a puritane, or a Donatist, or both.

Maister Beza in like maner, by reason of some oppositi­on which hath bene made against the Sauoyan platforme, is growne as it seemeth to some kind of moderation. For speaking of the pretended necessitie of it: hee sayth, that the doctrine onely, Bez. de pres. pa. 119. vz. vvhat vve are to beleeue, is absolutely necessarie: and also further addeth, that seeing a man some­times may be saued vvithout the participation of the sacra­ments: the same may bee sayd much more of the vvant of ecclesiasticall discipline. Now verely we are to thanke him, he hath done much for vs. We may be saued though the memorie of this discipline were vtterly buried. But the point which I chiefely note, is this: that there is great difference in maister Bezaes iudgement, betwixt the neces­sitie of the first two notes of the church, and this third, of his own deuise. And therein he giueth in effect, the flat lye to maister Cartvvright, for charging him to hold: that all the said 3 notes, as they are notes, were equally necessarie. And Trauers also is checked by his good maister, in that he wil needs make, as it hath bene said, the censures of his cō sistories, to be in the same absolute degree of necessity, both with the word and sacraments. But I wil follow M. Beza whilest I haue him in his good mood. The vvhole church vvanted circūcision in the vvildernes (saith he) & vvhilest they vvere in Babylon, they neither had temple nor sacrifices, and yet neuerthelesse, they ceassed not to be the people of God. And the same may then be said much more of the ecclesiastical discipline, vz. Ecclesias vt illa careant, tamen ecclesias verè pias & Christianas esse posse, si doctrinam praecipuorū dogma­tum purā ac sincerā habuerint, That the churches that vvant that discipline, may notvvithstanding bee indeed godly and [Page 445] Christian churches, if they retaine the doctrine of the cheefest grounds, pure and sincere. Now if Beza will giue this testi­monie of a church that wanteth both his discipline and the sacraments, hauing but only the principall grounds of religiō: what should he say of those churches which haue not onely a better discipline, then that which hee vrgeth: but also the said sincere grounds, with the doctrine & true vse of both the holy sacramēts, in as great reuerence, at the least, as they haue them at Geneua? You shall heare him what he is driuen to say, of the present estate of the church of England. The places haue bene cited in the eight chap­ter to another purpose. He must be pardoned to come in with his If: because any thing from him, that soundeth not after the Geneua tune,Beza contr. Sarrau. pa. 111. is very much. But if the churches of England (sayth he) being vnderpropped vvith the autho­ritie of Bishops and Archbishops do firmely abide, as this hath happened in our memorie to that church, that shee hath had men of that order, not onely vvorthie Martyrs of God, but most singular pastors and doctors: fruatur sane ista singulari Dei beneficentia, quae vtinam illi sit perpetua, Let her enioy this singular goodnesse of God, vvhich I pray shee may so do for euer. And in another place, speaking likewise vvith some good tearmes of the Church of England, and of our Archbishops and Bishops: he turneth himselfe cleane about,Beza ibid. pa. 127. and sayth, that they of Geneua do not prescribe to a­ny church to follovv their peculiar example, like vnto ig­norant men, vvho thinke nothing vvell but that they do themselues.

Againe also the same maister Beza, in his booke which Erastus confuted, not in that which Beza hath since publi­shed, but in the written and true copie of it, he speaketh in this sort, Nomine ecclesia Geneuensis, in the name [Page 444] [...] [Page 445] [...] [Page 446] of the church of Geneua, to those that account the Geneuian Eldership to be but humanum commentum, a humane de­uise: Beza cont. Erast. fol. 1. Petimus vt quemadmodum patienter ferimus ipsos a no­bis, &c. dissentire: VVe desire of them, that as vve suffer them patiently to dissent from vs, &c. so they vvould heare vs, mo­destly refelling their arguments, nullo cum ecclesiarum preiu­dicio, quas sibi credit as administrant: VVithout any preiudice to those churches, that they haue taken the charge of. For vvhere some do obiect, that vve account those churches, that vvant either excommunication, or such an eldership, to be no churches: it is obiected, immerito, Deus testis est, vndeserued­ly on our parts, God is our vvitnesse: and it is much more a slander, vvhere it is giuen out, that vve do bring a nevv ty­rannie into the church, & nostra velle reliquis obtrudere: and endeuor to obtrude our forme of discipline vnto the rest of the reformed churches. Non est ita fratres: It is not so bre­thren. Furthermore in like manner in the same place after­ward:Ibid. Quicun (que) vero hanc disciplinam in suis ecclesiis, non modo inutilem, verumetiam noxiam fore iudicant, fruan­tur sane suo sensu, &c. VVhosoeuer do iudge this discipline not only vnprofitable but hurtfull to their churches: let them en­ioy their ovvn sense. They vndoubtedly do see vvhat their flocks will indure, neither doubt vve, but that men of so great learning, and of so great antiquitie, our reuerend bretheren in the Lord, haue their reasons: Et quis nos constituit alieni gregis iudices? And vvho hath made vs iudges of other mens flocks?

He seldome hath vttered a truer speech. But how these sayings do agree with that which he hath sayd before in the third chapter, you may not curiously scanne it. Indeed he should seeme to be farre now from his former opinion, when he sayd in effect:Epis. 24. That it vvas to little purpose for any [Page 447] church to admit of the gospell, and to reiect his discipline. But he writeth in mine opinion, as (it hath bene sayd of old time) some courtiers in the world do vse to speake: that is for the most part, as the present occasion serueth their turnes. Such companie they may fal into, as they wil com­mend him to the skies, whom not past an hower before, they had in an other company depraued peraduēture most egregiously. And maister Beza, you must imagine, hath bene an old courtier, and knoweth wel what policie mea­neth. Plaine dealing certainly is best: but often-times it fal­leth out that it is not the readiest way, for hammering and busie farre reaching heads, to compasse their purposes. If this excuse do seeme too simple, let any that list make a better. No man doth wish it more heartily (as I thinke) then my selfe, that maister Beza should thinke well of the present church-gouernment established in England: so he do it plainly, faithfully, and directly, which will not hap­pen (I feare it) in hast. Neither haue I alleaged his former words to that purpose, as though I tooke all that for gold, which he can make to glister. The point I prosecute, is this: that you might perceaue, how they begin to leaue off from vrging the Geneuian platforme, with such important necessitie, as formerly they haue done.

But most of all it pleaseth me to see, how maister Cart­vvright draweth homeward. For as the Anabaptists by their madnesse kept maister Caluin within some good compas, and as maister Beza hath bene compelled in some sort, to retire himselfe from his former eagernesse: so assu­redly the phrenetical giddinesse of these our new vnbride­led schismatickes, who for pretended puritie are many de­grees beyond al the Sauoyan disciplinariās, hath wrought a miracle (to my vnderstanding) vpon M. Cartvvright. For [Page 448] heare him, how for feare of falling into flat Donatisme, he was fain to plead against one (that had bene his scholer) in the behalfe of the church of England, so bitterly before by himselfe impugned.Th. Cartw. to Harrison. The ordinarie assemblies (sayth he) of those vvhich professe the gospell in England, are the churches of Christ: which he proueth in this sort. Those assemblies vvhich haue Christ for their head, and the same also for their foundatiō, are Gods churches. Such are the assemblies of Eng­land, therefore, &c. Againe, they that haue performed vnto them the speciall couenant vvhich the Lord hath made with his churches, of pouring his spirit vpon them, and putting his vvord into their mouthes are the churches of God: but such are the assemblies in England, therefore, &c. Hereunto may be added (sayth he further) the iudgement of all the churches of Christ in Europe, all vvhich giue the right hand of socie­tie in the house of God, vnto the assemblies vvhich are in England. Againe, to prooue that the church of England is the church of God, notwithstanding it want the preten­ded discipline: he vseth this distinction: that as it is in mans body, so is it in this matter, there are certaine parts essentiall, and such as vvithout the vvhich a man cannot stand, and some seruing either to his comlinesse, or to his continuance. And of this latter sort he maketh the discipline, and lastly he writeth thus: To say that the church of England is not the church of God, because it hath not receaued this discipline, me thinks is all one vvith this, as if a man vvould say, It is no ci­tie, because it hath no vvall: or that it is no vineyard, because it hath neither hedge nor ditch. Thus farre maister Cart­vvright.

In which his manner of speech, you find a very great alteration, from his ancient stile. And as concerning the necessitie whereof I intreat, the wind you see is turned. [Page 449] There is no more necessity in England of the Geneua plat­forme, then that euery citie in this realme should be walled about. And besides, the pretended discipline is become not to be any longer of the essence of the church, but as apper­taining to the comlinesse of it. But how these things will accord with the premises, & namely his subscriptiō before mentioned, to the new booke of discipline, where the same discipline is made to be essentiall, or whether maister Cartvvright hath changed his iudgement againe, since he writ that answer to Harrison: I will leaue it to be discussed by them that know his vnreuealed mind better then I do. In the meane time, that which he hath graunted, I thinke it meet to take hold of. And this I will adde vnto it, that if maister Cartvvright would but conferre with some that haue skill in fortification, to know of him whether an old thicke wall of lime and stone, made many hundred yeares since, or a new sleight wall slubbered ouer, and wrought with vntēpered morter some few yeres ago, whether (I say) of these 2 walles are of better defence for any citie: I should be in good hope, that he would in short time, leaue the disciplinarie walles of Geneua, and content himselfe with the ancient fortifications of the church of England, and the rather because he seeth (as I sayd in the former chap­ter) what a giddie and itching humor, his nouelties haue bred, in the vnstayed sort of many fantasticall people.

THat which hath bene sayd of the com­mendation of this pretended regiment, may fitly be applied to this place. But now fur­ther of the commodities, which they say it would bring with it: inseparable conse­quents (belike) thereof. I will trouble you only with three mens testimonies, who it seemeth haue collected together that which is thought fit to be published to this purpose. If vve Motion pa. 31. had this gouernment, God vvould blesse our victuals, and satisfie our poore vvith bread: hee vvould cloath our priests vvith saluation, and his saints should shout for ioy. It Pa. 27. is best and surest for our state, and there is nothing compa­rable to Pa. 59. the establishing of it for her maiesties safetie. It vvould Pa. 75. make men to increase in vvealth, and that Pa. 76. they vvould not easily be dravvne after any great man to sedition and rebellion. That her P. 33. Maiesties person hath bene so oft in danger; that we haue had some dearth of late yeares; and that the Spaniards attempted to inuade this land; they as­cribe it to the want of this their gouernment. It Pa 74. vvould cut off contentions and sutes of lavv, &c. by censuring the partie that is troublesome and contentious, and vvithout reasonable cause, vpon euill vvill and stomacke should vex and molest his brother and trouble the countrie. If this go­uernment vvere restored, then you should see Pa. 64. learning [Page 451] nourished, young and olde called from blindnes to light, from wic­kednes to vertue and pietie. Then many woulde change pa. 37. their studies from Law, Phisicke, Musicke, scholing, &c. and manye would leaue their trades, and parentes would thinke theyr cost well bestowed, and diuerse waies comforted to preferre their chil­dren to the studie of Diuinity. Then there pa. 84. woulde be an vnity of the Church. Then should the Papist quaile, the Anabaptist waile, and the Atheistes be amazed. There pa. 59. could not bee so many seduced hanged aud quartered as there are. Then no pa. 68. li­cences could steale away mens daughters, the people should finde out the trueth and perfection of Iustice.

By this the pa. 91. wealth and honour of the Realme woulde be en­creased: and contentions, brawles, and vnnecessary pleas would be preuented: idle men of all sortes might be sette in order, and the poore men greatly comforted. The nobility pa. 91. and comminal­ty might haue their right. Men would pa. 76. not grudge at triflinge charges for Warre. Souldiers pa. 77. woulde bee made obedient to their Captaines: patient pa. 78. and couragious. It pa. 79. woulde bring strength and victorie: and keepe pa. 91. out of Kinges Dominions, ig­noraunt, wicked and flattering men.

Here out of the defence of Ecclesiasticall gouernement. Pag. 121. 122. 123. 127. 134.

Whereof C. l. 2. Epi. commeth it that Arrians, Valentinians, and A­nabaptistes, with other detestable Heretiques are so rise in many places in this land? is it not thereof that there is no Eldership? Whereof commeth it, that horrible blaspheming the holye and most reuerend name of God, quarrelling and fighting, dronken­nes, filthy speaking, fornication, adultery, slaundering and such like, runne ouer almost in euery place? Is it not hereof, that there is no Eldership? Whereof commeth it that in so many [Page 452] excellent lawes prouided against rogues and beggers: there are yet such numbers? is it not hereof that the office of Deacons is a­bolished?

These are singular commodities indeede which these Elderships woulde bring with them, if these men might be trusted. But haue they brought forth these fruicts and effectes in those countries where they are established? or are they but vaine wordes of ambitious men, that by such godly pretences doe little else but seeke their owne glory? Consider I pray you, what very learned and graue men haue written in other countries of these, and such like men as these and their fellowes are: together with the estate of some of those countreis, wher they haue their Elderships.

Maister Bullinger writing to a Bishop in England of our English innouators,A letter Mar. 10. 1574 saith thus. They imitate in mine opi­nion those seditious Tribunes of Rome, who by vertue of the A­grarian Lawe, bestowed the publicke goods, that they might pri­uately inritch themselues: that is, that you (meaning the Bish­ops) being ouerthrowen, they might succeede in your places, &c. But they goe about to erect a Church which they shall neuer aduaunce as they desire: neither if they shoulde, can they euer be able to continue it. And after in the same Letter. I woulde to God, there were not in the Authors of this Presbytery, libido dominandi, an ambitious desire of rule and principality: Nay I thinke it ought especially to be prouided for; that there be not any high authoritye giuen to this Presbytery, &c. Whereof ma­nie thinges might bee saide: but time will reueale many thinges which yet lie hidde.

Maister Gualter in like sorte, writeth thus to the Bishop of London, for the time being. Many doe vrge in these daies vnder a plausible name of Ecclesiasticall Discipline, I know not what a platforme, without the which they denie that any Chur­ches [Page 453] can continue. But I doe greatly feare least they bringe vs in an Aristocratie, which will shortly degenerate into an Oli­garchie: and become the beginning of a newe Papacie. For their onely labour is to sette vs vp a Presbyterie, whereinto certaine honest men, are indeede admitted: but yet so as the Ministers will doe in a manner what they list. It was of late decreed by the Ministers at Heidelberge, that no man should bee admitted to the Lords Supper: except he first offered himselfe to the Pastor. For Paules rule is not helde sufficient there: vz. that euerie man should trie himselfe. The Elders did not agree to this decree: but yet notwithstading it is vrged in the name of the Presbytery, nay of the whole Church &c. But there was not long since suche an example of a new tyrannie there, as may iustlie feare anie, that careth for the liberty of the Church. There is there an Helue­tian the Gouernour of the Colledge of Saint Denis, as innocent and godly a man as liueth. Howbeit Oleuianus the Pastor war­ned him by the crier of the Presbyterie, in the name of all the Elders, that he should not come to the Lordes Supper: adding this cause, that he could not admit him, absque animi sui offen­sione, without the offence of his minde. The party tooke this dea­ling (as it was reason) in euill part: and defireth to know what he hath committed that deserued such a punishment. But they an­swered him not otherwise, then that they continued in the same minde. Whereuppon he offered a Supplication vnto the prince Elector, that he would compell them to shewe the fault, if there were any, that he had committed. But vntill this daie he coulde extort nothing else in effect from them. This is their goodly order: this is their Discipline. Quare video nobis seriò vigi­landum esse, ne ex Romanae hydrae vix domitae vulneribus noua capita pullulent: wherefore I see we are to be vigilant, least new heads doe budde out of the woundes of the Romish hydra, scarsely yet subdued.

[Page 454]And in another letter,Marche 16. 1574. to the Bishop of Ely, of the same matter he addeth: that the Prince Elector vppon the said parties complaint, did moue the Elders to shew, what hee had committed that they dealt so with him. Sed ne hoc ab illis impetrare potuit: but he could not preuaile so much. Marry at the last (saith Maister Gualter) being many waies more ear­nestly vrged thereunto, they fell to coining of lies, and perswaded the Prince that he abstained from the Lords supper of his own ac­cord: and now of that his voluntary forbearing woulde knowe the cause of them. Many such things are done which it woulde be too long to rehearse. Seeing they beginne in this sorte, hauing not as yet any full possession of their new kingdom, what shall we thinke they will doe: si merum imperium obtineant, if they ob­taine an absolute authority? By this letter also it seemeth, that long since, by Oecolampadius meanes, notwithstandinge Zwinglius withstood it: there was such a like forme of re­giment erected in Basill: but shortly after (saieth Maister Gualter) he was compelled to giue it ouer againe, learning by ex­perience that he had attempted a matter of greater discommodi­ty then profite. I cannot therefore dislike of them, that oppose themselues to these endeuours, who so busily in these daies pleade this for matter, &c. There are in Germanie, and in another cer­taine pl [...]e (hee meaneth I thinke Geneua) that denie the kingdome of Christ canne continue, except the Discipline which they haue deuised be receaued in euery place. I doc containe my selfe that I may not bee saide to haue begonne the fight: Sin illi Classicum cecinerint, but if they sound vp the Alarum, I can­not choose but defend the doctrine of truth, and the libertie of the Church: not doubting but that many will ioyne with mee here­in.

The same Gualter also again in another letter to the said Bishop of Ely.26 August. 1574. I shall not neede to vse many wordes what I [Page 455] thinke of your innouators, sith I haue done it in my last Letters. And surely I am greatlie confirmed in my former opinion, by the examples, which such like innouators in Germany doe bring forth. Video enim illis hominibus nihil ambitiosius, nihil inso­lentius, nihil ineptius, fingi posse. For whereas there are many thinges most wickedly done by them daily, yet they are not asha­med to pretende the zeale of God, in excuse of those thinges, which contrarie to the worde of God they deuise both wickedly and maliciouslie against the seruauntes of Christ. But as farre as I canne coniecture: many by whose counsaile and assistaunce the frame of this Discipline was chiefely erected, are nowe asha­med of them.

But that which Maister Gualter writte the same yeare to Bishop Sands, is most pertinent. I vnderstand that the strife amongest you, procured by certain turbulent innouators, doth wax hotte, and that they are gone so farre, that vnder the plausible ti­tle of good order and Discipline, they desire the whole gouerne­ment and pollicy of the Church of England to be vtterly ouer­throwen. Surely I should meruaile at the immodesty and wilfull desire of contention in these men: but that I see the same in pra­ctise else-where, especiallie in all those places where the authority of the bretheren of Geneua is so greatly esteemed, that Geneua is accounted the Oracle of all Christendome. God hath indeed a­dorned that Church with diuerse excellent gifts,: and the Mi­nisters thereof: amongest whom, Maister Beza I haue alwaies reuerenced and loued, and doe so still. But yet I would wish them modestiùs & humiliùs sapere, and not seeke to draw their shooe vppon euery mans foote, &c. What hath beene done in the Palsegraues Countrey, I writte vnto you before. Surely the state there as touching Discipline, and the gouernement of the Church, all men that come thence doe say, it is worse then it was before, and it is sure, that many doe repent that they euer admit­ted [Page 456] these mens counsaile. But yet the Geneuians doc still ende­uour to thrust that their Discipline vppon all Churches. And if they shall deny this, they may bee sufficiently conuinced by the Booke of Theologicall examples, that Beza published this other yeare: that they suggest their arguments and councels not onelye to you Englishmen, but in like sorte to the Germans, Phrisians, Polonians and Hungarians: whereby amongest those that a­greede well together before, rixae & turbae enascuntur, brawlings and quarrels doe arise, &c. And so hauing signified what troubles the innouators beyond the seas as well as in Eng­land doe procure to the Church, he moueth the Bishop to doe as he and Maister Bullinger did: that is, to moderat such busie wittes (as they might) for a time. For (saith he) spero aedificium hoc nouae Disciplinae breui propria mole ruiturum, quando satis constat, iam eius pertaesos esse, qui priús illud admira­bantur. I hope the frame of this new Discipline, will in short time fall, of it selfe: considering that many are nowe become wea­rie of it, that had it, before in admiration.

An other likewise, a Gantois, a very graue and learned man, as well acquainted with this Discipline, as Maister Cartwright is: being desired to write his opinion, whether it had brought forth such effectes in Holland, as is before pretended it would doe in England, for aunswere saieth. Is any man able to repeate the monstrous Heresies and errors, that Holland doth nourishe &c. vnder the shadowe of refor­med religion? this is aimed at, vz. that the turpitude of all blas­phemies, being couered with this cloake, may lie hid, and that it may be lawfull without controlement, if anie list to recall the old Paganisme, or to professe Mahomets Religion, or what worse is, if there be anie thing worse. Againe, the Magistrates haue in­uaded the Church-goods. The Ministers haue little allowaunce. There is no respect of the study of Diuinitie. The Magistrates [Page 457] doe suspect the forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement: first be­cāuse they feare, least it will degenerate into a worse tyrannie then the Spanishe Inquisition: Secondly, for that they see a new Senat of Elders in their Townes, to exercise with the Ministers, a cen­sure of manners without lawes, but such as they make themselues, and without anie lawfull forme of Iustice. The olde Canon law is abrogated, and the Magistrates will allow no new. For they feare, that the new would prooue worse then the olde. Besides, they will not committe the fame of themselues and theirs, to the arbitrement of ignoraunt men, such as for the most parte their Elders are, who may abuse their authority rashly, and laie such an infamy of adulterie or other grieuous offence vpon a mans backe, as hee shall not afterwards easily cast from him. The Ministers desire, that the Magistrates would punish those that disobey their commaundements: which they will neuer doe, except they may first by due course of law heare the cause, they of that Consistory being either actors or accusers: and that, the Ministers and El­ders refuse to doe, &c. Besides, some of the Ministers themselues that professe the Gospell, are not free from those swarmes of He­resie, which doe make their hiues there, &c.

And in an other letter, speakinge of the generall euent of that kinde of discipline: Vereor ne exemplum Geneuensis ecclesiae, et quarundam aliarum ecclesiarū quae eam secutae sunt, maiorem quàm vulgo creditur perniciem ecclesiae adferat: I feare least the example of the church of Geneua, and some other Chur­ches that followe her, may bring greater mischiefe to the Church, then is commonly beleeued.

One William Hart a minister, & the preacher, not long since at Emden, notwithstandinge all their goodly reforma­tion in those partes, yet writ in this sort therof, vnto his se­cret friend M. Field. Corruption by custome is so strong, that none can abide the yoake, and wonder you would, if you sawe what [Page 458] grosse thinges the best ministers doe cleane deuoure, and those of the middle sort, doe earnestly stande and pleade for. If you did see the confused state of the Churches of these countries: you would say that England, (howe badde soeuer) were a paradise in compa­rison: and yet I haue not forgotten the blots and wantes thereof. The trueth which he speaketh of the Church of England, is to bee imbraced: for the rest, you may ascribe it vnto his factious humors.

Furthermore also, there are some other countries not yet mentioned, where the pretended discipline is in practise: and yet there are noe such fruites founde thereof, as are as­cribed vnto the intertainement of it. Be pleased to heare what an espetiall man of some one countrie, a minister, a gentleman greatly descended, a person of chiefe aestimati­on, hath published to the worlde in print, Cum priuilegio Regali: and procured to be sent abroade into other coun­tries, in certaine of his seruauntes names.

The Ser. 3. prophane multitude of this kingdom: they Ser. 4. disdain the word spitefully. There Ser. 4. are two sins ioyned in the prophane mul­titude, glottony and bloud: They Ser. 4. go forward in all course of sin, the more they are forbidden. They make Ser. 4. no account of the death of Christ. They are Ser. 1. in Psalm. 76. altogether godlesse.

The Church Ser. 1. is made a pray to all men, there is such disdain and contempt of the worde in the whole estate. Confusion Ser. 3. of Church and pollicie doth grow from day to day: and Ser. 1. in Psal. 76. threatneth vtter extermination. It is Serm. 5. the Lord that woonderfully continu­eth the light amongest vs, and that keepeth the face of a ministe­rie in Scotland. There is no good entertainment, but a very great pouertie in the most part of all the ministerie. The greatest part Ser. in Psal. 76. of our Priestes, our Ministers, their mouthes haue lost the trueth, and their persons haue lost their reuerence: the Lord hath made them contemptible in the eyes of men.

[Page 459] Floudes Serm. 1. of iniquitie doe flow ouer great men: There is no great man, but whatsoeuer liketh him, hee thinketh it lawfull. The Gentlemen, Serm. 5. Earles, Lordes, and Barons, they are so dronke with sacrilege, that before they part with that geare, they had rather part with the life of their soules: they had rather loose their soules a hundreth times, then bestowe a halfepeny vppon the Church. Our Serm. 6. owne meane Lordes doe fall into such proud contempt, that they are readie to take vp open warres agaynst God: so as that Iulian was no greater professed ennemy, then they are like to be if they continue. The great Ser. 1. in Psal. 76 men in this country, are become companions to Theeues and pirates, oppressors and mani­fest blasphemours of God and man: ye see murther, oppression, and bloud is the onely thing, that they shoote and marke at. The Lord Serm. 1. in Psal. 76. hath no greater enemies, then the great men, in this coun­try, &c. They are burning, and scalding, slaying, and murdering, vsing all kinde of oppression and raging, so as if there were no king in Israel.

And generally thus. This Serm. 1. countrey is heauily diseased. The sinnes Serm. 2. of the land craueth, that all pulpits sound iudge­ment. If you Serm. 2. looke to the growth of sinne: more vgly sinnes were neuer committed. The land Serm. 3. is ouerburdened, with the birth of iniquitie. The Serm. 3. best haue taken a lothing of the word of God. The waight Serm. 6. of Gods wrath, that hangeth ouer this land, is insupportable. O vnhappy Serm. 6. and wrathfull countrey, &c: the more that knowledge groweth, conscience decayeth. See Serm. 6. ye not slaughter in great measure, oppression, murther without mercy? see ye not all law and equitie trampled vnder foote? Is there Serm. in psalm. 76. any cleane place in the countrey, &c: without the cries and lamentable voices of terrible murther, oppression and bloud? The most Serm. in psalm. 76. part of this countrey, is giuen ouer to a straunge de­lusion: to preferre the leauen of the Pharises and dregges of pa­pistry [Page 460] before the word of God. There is Serm. 6. none that seeth the confusion of this countrey to grow so fast: that can looke for anie redresse in his owne time: all runneth on to a desolation and miserable confusion. Faith is Serm. 1 in psal. 76. scarsly to bee found; yea not faith in promises: let be faith in Christ Iesus. God hath Serm. 5. giuen vs ouer to be deceaued by the mightie power and working of the diuell.

Hitherto this learned preacher: Whereby a man may see, that some countries may be in as euill a case, that haue the Geneuian platforme, set vp amongest them: as some o­ther that care not a figge for it.

But oh say the authours of the first admonition:Admo. 1. pag. 13. is re­formation good for Fraunce, and can it be euill for Eng­land ▪ Is Discipline meete for Scotland, and is it vnprofita­ble for England ▪ Againe: Surely God hath set these ex­amples before your eyes, to encourage you to go forward to a through and speedy reformation.Ibidem. And likewise maister Cartwright: Whereas maister Doctor would bring vs in­to a foolish paradise of our owne selues, as though we need not to learne any thing of the Churches of Fraunce and Scotland: T.C. lib. 1. p. 194. he should haue vnderstanded, that as wee haue been vnto them an example, and haue prouoked them to follow vs: so the Lord would haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example. Whereunto I make no other aunswere but this: that I pray vnto almightie God with­all my very soule, for the long and happy continuance of the blessed example, which this Church and realme of England hath shewed in this last age of the worlde, vnto all the kingdomes and countries in the earth, that professe the Gospell with anie sinceritie: and that also of his infinite mercie, not onely the kingdomes of Fraunce and Scotland: [Page 461] but all other Christian kingdomes and countries may taste so plentifully of his heauenly graces, as that they may be­come dayly better and better examples to stirre vp ano­ther, to the right and true pathes of all godly vnitie and o­bedience, of heartie and sincere profession of religion, and of such righteousnesse and holinesse of life, as may be wor­thy the professors of the same. This onely I trust I may say without any offence: that (as I thinke) we haue better causes of incouragement at home to pray for the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernment and Discipline, that we may haue it still: then we can finde abroad (the pre­mises of this chapter being true) why wee shoulde eyther wish or desire to haue any forraine platformes or practises, of I knowe not what kinde of pragmaticall discipline brought in amongst vs.

A Discipline deuised at Geneua; established there by cunning: and obtruded by practises vppon other Chur­ches. A Discipline, the more it is looked into by the fa­uourers of it: the moe doubtes and imperfections, they daily finde in it. A Discipline the originall whereof is vnknowne: and therefore hath no warraunt in the worde of God. A Discipline so lately hatched: that as yet it hath no certaine name agreed vpon. A Discipline of that nature: as they know not well how to bestowe her. A Discipline, that banisheth such Apostolicall Bishops, as Christ appointed: & admitteth like an adulteresse of those, who indeede shoulde serue her, to haue an equall com­maundement ouer her. A Discipline, that will haue Doctors of her owne: and when she hath them, she know­eth not howe to bestowe them. A Discipline of such humilitie, as forsooth Princes and Noblemen, must bee, [Page 462] but her inferior officers. A Discipline so disdainefull, as she forgetteh the very names of her sayde officers, or at the least knoweth them not, though they be Noblemen or Princes. A Discipline, that wil needs seeke in the scrip­tures for those new kind of rulers; but she is ignorant where to finde their qualities. Whether she would haue them to be Lay-men, or Ecclesiasticall; shee is not yet resolued. A Discipline, that when she entertaines her seruants: cast­eth them of againe at her pleasure, without anye offence committed by them. A Discipline that hauing seruants, doth want a warrant for their imployment: either in their particular, or in their generall offices, which she woulde faine assigne vnto them. She would haue Lay-menne to make her ministers: to be her confessors: and to bind and loose her sinnes. A Discipline, that will needs haue her particular officers, both men and women, after her owne humor: to doe nothing else, but carrie her purse, and wash her feete. A Discipline, that by reason of her traine: would be very chargeable. A Discipline, that hopeth to turne all the Church liuinges, which either are or haue beene (belike) into Nunries: and so to become herselfe the Prioresse of them all. A Discipline, that will needes be a new Pope Ioane, and haue to deale in all ecclesiasticall causes, either by hooke or crooke: nay almost in all sortes of matters whatsoeuer. A Discipline of such partiality: as what she condemneth in others she approueth in her­selfe. A Discipline, that disdaineth the auncient fathers and generall councells. A Discipline, that dareth to dis­grace any of the new writers, if they take not her part. A Discipline, that seemeth to allowe of nothinge but scrip­tures: & yet dependeth alltogether vpon her owne friends [Page 463] and Synods. A Discipline, that sometime to dazle mens eies withall; can be content, to pretend, that the auncient fathers and councells, doe plead for her estate: but shee doth peruerte them. A Discipline, that to serue her turne doth wringe and wrest the scriptures, this way and that way as she is disposed. A Discipline, that possesseth men with so greate selfe-loue and pride, as for wante of good neighbours, they are faine to take paines to commende themselues. A Discipline, that is contented to bee mag­nified and exalted, against all that is called god vpon earth. A Discipline, that is vtterly forsaken, by many that haue beene her friendes. A Discipline accounted by those, that do stil remaine her best friends, not to be so necessarie, as heretofore she hath beene reputed. A Discipline, that promiseth mountaines: and bringes forth Myce. A Discipline, that is greatly disliked for her pride: her making of debate, where she comes: her taking vpon her like an Empresse to commaund and rule at her pleasure. In these respects, and many other which I could alleadge, she is (I say) a discipline, that is greatly disliked of sundry of her neighbours: and euen of them, who when she was at the last gaspe did reuiue her: little suspectinge that euer shee would haue proued so ambitious a creature: as since by experience they haue found her to be. And therefore for mine owne part: seeing I finde no country as yet, that is so greatly to be enuied for any especiall happines, that this pretended Cherubin hath brought forth or procured, where shee is receiued: I will continue my former praier, that the Church of England, be neuer troubled with such a discipline: but that our olde and present Apostolicall forme of Church-gouernment, vnder her excellent Maie­stie [Page 464] by Arch-bishops or Arch-builders and Bishops, practised in the Apostles times, approued by all the auncient fathers and generall councells, and continued in this land since the time, that it first professed christianitie, may together, with her Highnesse, our most Soueraigne Lady, be long & many happy yeares mainetayned, blessed and pre­serued amongst vs. The which allmightie God graunt, for his Sonne Iesus Christs sake our Lord.

Amen.