BEe it so, sithence you will needs haue it so, prouided that you be not ouerhastie to communicate it, for that may breed danger to me, and no great good to your selfe. If it be the same M. Some, that read somtime a Lecture in my L. of Leicesters house, then is he quite new founded since I saw him, and his spirit it should seeme, strangely vapored vpward into some loftier climate thē was vsual with him in those daies, you can remember I am sure, when he was taken for an other manner of man of a soft constitution, and a simple harted man, as most of his coate within the land. Albeit that euen then when he gaue this glamse of sinceritie and mildnes, there were some you knowe that stood in contention with vs about him, in that he made no bones (as they then saide) to be adaylie nonresident from his charge, and withal closely and slily to glut downe a pretty prebend or 2. to help his disgestion, which as you and I were then hardly draw­en to beleeue, thinking all this to be but injuriously fathered vppon him, so yet if that should be true as the knight giueth out, that my L. of Leycester shold vse any such speeches of him, That he feared be would prooue but an ambitious foole when al was don. Remem­bring what hath fallen out since, I promise you it was shrewdly aymed of my Lord, and we must needs yeld he had a notable eie, that could in so smoth a counte­nance, and so close a carriage of a man, spie out neuer­thelesse the cloude of ambition afar of: it was not for nought it should seem, that he was so long emplojed by her maiestie in affaires of State.

But it is no reason you would say, that euery thing should be measured after the partiall and passionate [Page 2] judgment of men howe greate soeuer they be: very true, and therefore to cleare the suspition, and to wipe away al that might seeme through prejudice in any sort to bleamish the man, let your D. hardly speake for himselfe, for index animi sermo, or as he him selfe saith, ex vnguibus leonem, of th'abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh, and these (if I be not deceiued,) you shal finde to be his owne words, which som think had bin fitter forfytie works against the landing of the Spanyards, then for grounded reasons and argu­mēts to decide a controuersie by. But I wil not brand them with any cole of mine, let them weigh as they wil in the judgment of the wise, I will neither peize downe the ballance at th'one end, nor lighten it at th'other: only because you presse me to tel you what I thinke, I will first take some paines to drawe you a callender of his owne speeches as I finde them scat­tered in his book, and so leaue the judgment to your selfe: nay as master Doct. telleth the ignorant welch­man, I wil not in this case refuse the judgment of his owne disciples, if they haue any dram of equitie in them, so that they remember to follow their masters rule, and bring with them iudicium non preiudicium, harken then I pray you a while, to the sound of this learned trumpet, and tel me your opinion when wee meete.

First in the very title of his booke, he beginneth thus. If the bare outside be so glittered, what may we thinke of the pearles within? A refutation of many a­nabaptisticall, blasphemous, and popish absurdities tou­ching Magistracie, Ministery, Church, Scripture, and Baptisme: And then he goeth on very sweetly thus.

M. Penri (saith he) is very ignoraunt, and his treatise very sillie & corrupt stuffe: His booke is a fardle of grose errors: none account of it but such as are of the fantasti­call [Page 3] crue, men extremely both proud and ignorant: his in­constancie proceedes of a vaine humor, which as a whirl­winde doth strangely carye and ouercarie him: his grosse errors: his absurd, anabaptisticall and blasphemous fan­sies. I dare be bold to say, that is the spiders webb be good cloath, and the cockatrice eggs holsome meate, then such points as I resute in this treatise, are very excelent diui­nitie. His speach is very grosse: his reasons are most ab­surd and childish. This is intollerable sawcines: Inscitia audax: None so bold as blind bayard. This is a grosse and popish error, a popish collection, a most absurde heresie: your arreast is like Goliabs curse. M. PENRI hath trou­bled heuen, church, commonwelth & himself. Heauen, for he is sawcie with God himselfe: Churche, for in steade of treasure, he hath offered it very dangerous poyson. Com­mon wealth, for he hath vndermined the chaire of the Magistrate, I hope such conies will be looked vnto. Him­selfe, for he hath broached many proud, blasphemous, and anabaptisticall fansies. The marke that M. PENRI le­uels at, is I feare me, to shake handes with the anabapti­sticall recusants, some part of his writings looke shrewdly that way. I make very mean account as yet of your judg­ment: you haue broached grosse errors: thanke yourself for sowing such giddie fansies: you are too imperiall. If my reasons were sutable to your answers, they were verie wofull: your tongue cannot disgrace me, your tongue is no sclander. Sus Mineruam: your dealing with me, is neither honest nor schoolelike: if you see not this, you are starke blind. The wrangling spirits are the more for your absurd writings: They which are so forward in iangling of these points, are either of your humor, which is very bad, or A­nabaptisticall recusants which is somewhat worse.

Will you any more of this? It is you see but a myrie tracke that I tread in, and yet the farther one wades, the more quicke sandes and quauemires he is like to [Page 4] finde: for thus your doctor goeth on.

I am sorie for your heauinesse: I detest your anabap­tisticall fancies: your gift in answering is very rare: you make wash way of the weightiest arguments: you bewray intollerable both pride and ignorance: you are one of the strangest diuines that euer I heard of, very ignorant, ve­ry bold, very absurd: your iudgment is not worth a rush: your dealing with me is most absurd: you haue grossely a­bused me: you are neere driuen when you vse such begger­ly shifts to bumbaste your treatise: Honest matrons vse no paintings, but harlots doe: grosse errors haue neede of suche vermiliom: the vaile of mallice did hinder your sight: This odious instance doth best become your spirit: It is sutable to the rest of your writings, most absurde and childish: your absurdities are many and grosse: if you re­cant not your anabaptisticall errors, I will account very basely of you. The name of Maiestie is to costly a garment for so lepprous a bodie as your treatise is: It is the maner of all sectaries to vse lofly & maiestical words, that their ignorant followers may commend them aboue the skies. My answere is, that you are a wicked slanderer: such dea­ling is an argument of a vile nature, and a wrangling spi­ryt: if I were of your humor, I could chase and pursue you hotely for your inconstancie and error. In your treatise you haue sowne grosse errors thicke & threfold. Are not your disciples most vnhappy that depend one you as one an other Pope? This bewraieth your grosse ignorance: if my reasons were as weake as your sensles answers, they were strange stuffe: what meane Scholler, what russet coat in the country would shape such an answere? your wittes I thinke were a woolgathering: this answeere I thinke came out of Barbarie, I hope you are ashamed of it by this time: did euer any student deale so childishly? I see by his answeres what a deepe clark he is, your weightie obiections haue neither succum nor sanguinē: they haue [Page 5] no pith in them, they are lighter then any feather, and be­wray your ignorance: your lusty speches cannot daunt me: it is but a visor. I haue bin long acquainted with the boi­sterous speches of such ignorant and bold companions as you are. salis pro imperio, you are by your leaue a litle to Lordly: had I nothing to thinke of but your absurd fan­sies: you imagin very basely of me: I doe but touch this grosse and blasphemous paradox of yours: what base ware you commend vnto vs for excellent diuinitie?

Howe think you? Wil you any more yet? Or are you not halfe weary of reading? Well I hope nowe if my hands doe happen to smell any thing vnsauorly, you wil of curtesie beare with me, because you see I haue bin al this while gathering of weedes. But alasse is this all thinke you? No assure your selfe, there is yet a vile deale of such behinde, for these (I take it) are of the same forge:

He that would saile after your compasse for diuinitie matters, should proue as giddy as a goose (saith your doc­tor:) you haue euil lucke: you are an vnpleasant musition: you haue kept strange coiles: you lay on load, but it is ful­men non tonitru, black cloudes but no raine: I praye God to keepe the people of the land, from such blinde guides as the ignorant sorte are, & from such shamelesse & phantastical guides as you master Penry are: if you will deale plainly neuer piddle any longer, goe through stitch with al. Seing you are ouer shooes, aduenture ouer bootes to confute Caluin, giue th'onset, if you faile, you shall loose no credit of learning, for you neuer had any as yet. Qui semel vericundiae limites, &c. you knowe the rest &c. M. Peurye is in his ruffe. His pride and igno­rance appeare in their coulers: if you be not void of grace be sory and ashamed of your blasphemous lewdnes: you haue vsed th' Apostle as Cacus did Hercules oxen. Did a­ny student euer broth such sluffe as this? Many Carrmen [Page 6] in London can make better arguments: your writing haue nether grace nor salt: your absurd collections are euiden­ces of your spirit: vnskilful preachers are your bulwarks and blockhouses to support your fancies: you haue shotte but many scores wide: you are one of the strangest turners that euer I knewe: you haue turned out such a deale of grosse diuiuitie vppon me and others, that we are weary & you may be ashamed of it: you would neuer I thinke haue vented such motley stuffe as this, if you had thought it would haue bene looked on. Manye learned condemne your treatise for a foolish and santastical bable: you are so sawey with the principal of the religion, in this noble land. I make more accoumpt I tel you of one Caluin then of a thousand Penries: you haue a special guist in varying a phrase, for that you shal bear the bell and the claper to: it is a blinde and beggerly shist: your arguments are Sco­pae dissolutae, very loose ware & slenderly trussed toge­ther: more he tels master Penry, that there is no rea­son he should haue such libertie of printing as he, for saith he, you broach and Print grosse errors & anabap­tisticall fansies: so doe not I: you refused to offer & sub­mit your writings, to the view & alowance of the Magi­strate: so doe not I: you woulde haue me procure your ju­dicial hearing, &c. your request is not equal. Nec te noui nec vbi sis. Speake for your selfe in Gods name: so will I. If you will reuoke your error & heresies, otherwise I will not open my lippes for any such as you are. Likewise in the same place, Master Penty hauing shewed that he did reuerence him for his guifes, is thus cut short, and vncurteously rewarded for his paines. Be sory saith he for your selfe. Detest your fansies, your reuerence I make verie mean account of: Gods truth is as deare to me as to you. I hope it hath had & shall haue more defence by me then by you, there is som reson it should. And afterwards he cōmeth vppon him thus: you are not (saith he) Ma­ster [Page 7] of the sentences as Peter Lambarde was: if you were, the sound diuinitie that is taught in Cambridge & Ox­forde should be cried downe: and your strange fansies should be ruled cases. The refutation of your blasphemus, Anabaptistical, popish, & proud errors by me, is I am sure a performance of a special duty to almighty God, my Prince, and this Church. Greate words shall not fraie me: if your ignorant disciples wil stil magnifie you, it shal not be strange to me, they doe but their kinde: you vse goodly words sometimes, but your proude malice wil appeare, it cannot be hidden: your heretical absurdities in your trea­tise, & your shamelesse dealing with our Magistrates doe crie aloud, &c. I praie God with all my hart, to keepe me & all such as loue religion from such as you and the fan­tastical sort are: you are strange cattell: you hope that I will graunt you the cause, a vain hope, for I think scorne to be one of ignorant Penries disciples, that is a proude and ignorant Anababtist. If you will haue anie thing at my hands you must get it by force of argument. If you thinke I wil come of otherwise, you are in a wrong box, for I entend not to be at your whystle: yea I require and charge you in the name of God, (if you be not voide of grace) that you consesse your ignorance and detest your errors, &c. Thus haue you my resolution, and yet you are no conqueror as Coesar was, nor I ouerthrowne as Pompei was: if your arguments were as tidie, as your speeches are consident, there were no dealing with you: I perceiue the greatest barkers are not the forest byters: Blinde Barti­meus could haue espied this: you may command and con­trolle, and deale with others as Strato did, that was king ouer beasts, &c.

How now if a man may aske you, are you not neere cloyed by this? What thinke you nowe of my L. of Leycester his prophesie? Was not the figure well sett that hit so right of the mans constitution? Yet is this [Page 8] the man you see, that can for all this tel his aduersary and that ful solemly, that the best conqueast he can haue is, to ouercome his pride by humility, yea and more, tel him plainly that he liketh better Humile pec­catum, quam superbam innocentiam: he that wil so of­ten and so peremptorily lay haughtines and pride to an other man, had he not neede thinke you to be a litle clearer from that infection himselfe, then your doctor sheweth him selfe to be? But it may be he will mend the matter in some other places of his booke, and it is odds he wil not alwaies be in this key: like e­nough, and therefore let him speake once againe for himselfe. About his. 77. page as I take it, where M. Penri doth seeme to say, that we can hardly haue any sealed assurance in our harts, that we receaue any sa­crament at the dumbe ministers hands, because wee haue no such promise of the Lord, and our assurance must alwaies be grounded vpon the promises of God, marke I pray you howe M. Some refuteth this:

You are at warre (saith he) with your selfe: you wordes agree like harpe and harrow: your disciples are sit vessels to receiue anie liquor of you, but men of learning and wis­dome are otherwise affected: your dealing is absurde and dangerous, absurd for it is void of truth, dangerous for it would breed confusion. The Magistrates thanks be to god, neither do nor will suffer this bad course of yours: if they should, sancies would as weedes grow too fast, and this no­ble land should receiue more hurt thē your head is worth: I doubt not of their godlie wisedome: The miserable e­state of Germanie heretofore by reason of sectaries, may and will awaken them: If you be restrained from your grosse errors, as some are verie iustlye, you must not crie, persecution persecution, your note must be, Poena persi­diae, that is, that you are iustly met with, otherwise you sing out of tune. And not long after this, he payeth him [Page 9] againe with a syllogisme or two in the same figure. I am perswaded, that if you be not well conjured by the ma­gistrate, you will prooue a strange bodie: you are far gone alreadie, strange fansies haue almost consumed you: The Magistrates discipline is the fittest medicine for you: if that will not recouer you, your disease is desperate. Yea & now he hath said it, he will stand to it, he meanes not you shall see him blush at the matter: For page 155. he addeth: If either M. Penrie, or anie of his santasti­call crue, shall thinke much of my speach, I do not passe: I confesse freelie, that sharpe words are not sufficient plai­sters for such proud sores: I hope the magistrate will con­sider further of him and such as he is. Duro nodo, durus cuneus, &c. that is, a wedge of iron is fittest for knottie wood. Besides al this, he is vp with blasphemous against him, I thinke aboue a dozen times, and in that good Christian moode of his, it pleaseth him full sweetly, to call M. Penri, an hereticall Catabaptist: and of his charitie, to liken and compare him to Demetrius the siluer Smith: to Alexander the Copper smith: to the wicked women in the 13. of Ezekiel: to the gracelesse people in the time of Esai, Ieremie and Micheas: To wicked Amaziah in Ieroboams court: To Athalia that wicked trayteresse: To harlots that paint themselues: To Neuius the clamorous companion: To Thrasilaus the frantike man: To the monstrous sonne, that cud­gelled his father: To Nestorias the heretik: To Pho­tinus a grosse heretike: To Aetius a pestilent heretik: To the Donatists, the Papists, the Pelagians, and the Anabaptists: To Campion: To Goliab: To Simon Ma­gus: To Iulian the Apostata: To murdering Ioab: To that bloody beast Ismael, that shedd teares, but they were Crocodiles teares: and last of all, to make vp the mouth of all, to that honest man Iudas that betrayed Christ. And like inough, if he could haue founde out [Page 10] any viler image, to haue drawne vs his portraiture by, it should not haue bene left out of this wor [...]hy rolle: The best is, himselfe tels vs, that the greatest barkers, are not the sorest byters. Therfore our hope is, M. Some will do little hurt with his teeth, he is so vnreasonable a barker.

Of al which, what other confutation should a wise man make thē vah quam sordide: quis suror que rabia? Sure if your doctor had conceiled his name, and sett only these 3. letters R. S. D. in the forehead of his booke, his frends would rather haue taken it for Ro­ger Salter Drouer: then for Robert Some Doctor: for they would neuer haue suspected that any such raggs as these should haue fallen from a man of that graui­tie, so rich in guifts and graces as they take M. Some to bee: why, is this your manner of canuasing of Controuersies in CAMBRIDGE? or is it your cu­stome nowe a daies, to drawe the most of your argu­ments à sustibus & sascibus, à vinculis & carceribus Doe you remember howe you were woont to be gir­ding at me for our Oxforde Doctors, as D. Kennall, D. Barnard &c. and to tell me that Barnardus non videt omnia, with many such like glicks? In requitall where­of, if I should nowe lay D. Bridges, and D. Some in your dish, I thinke your aduantage woulde not be great, Wel howsoeuer you may out go vs in other respects, I hope in one regard, you will not bee ouerhasty to compare with vs: that is, in Modesty and Mildenesse of spirit. For to goe no farther, shewe me if you can, a Cambridge man that is a match to M. Reynolds, I meane not in learning but in mildenesse: or shewe me an Oxforde man that is a match to M. Some, I meane not in learning but in bitternesse. Surely I am per­swaded (I speake it not I protest of any partial affecti­on) that that one worke alone of D. Reinolds against [Page 11] Harte, that wretched Iesuite, may therein be as a pat­terne and glasse to your whole vniuersitie while the world standeth. I doubt not but you haue reade it, and then you cannot but knowe, against what kinde of person he dealeth in that conference, namely against one alredy atteinted and conuicted of treason, in him against al such as were sworne en [...]mies to our religi­on and state, such as had long thirsted for the destruc­tion of her maiestie, and th'ouerthrowe of God his church, and viler men you knowe, there could not lightly be vnder the sunne. If any people in the world shoulde mooue a man to glaunce out into passion, or his pen to impacience, it were like enough to these. And yet I beleeue (prie as narrowly as you can,) you shal hardly pike out any one bitter, evenimed or dis­piteful sentence brought in of purpose, only to wound and disgrace his aduetsarie in the whole booke. See then the difference of spirits: your doctor dealeth not with any such manner of man I trowe: for M. Penri, howe vnlearned soeuer he be, (as M. Some maketh him worse then a drudge and a turnespit in al maner of knowledg) or howsoeuer he may vary from others in judgment, is thought yet of those that knowe him to be very honest and godly of life, and I haue heard that he is one that vsually haunteth the holy excersi­ses of religion, walking in al peaceable obedience to God and her maiestie, and that he hath bin a meanes to reclaime and cal back some that for want of a prea­ching minnistery, were euen at the brinke to decline to Brownisme: this I haue heard, howsoeuer it be, if you haue reade his writings, I appeale to your owne hart, whether you thinke him the childe of God or no, being in the judgment of some, a thing vnpossible that any man should write as he writeth, vnlesse hee were endewed with some good measure of Gods spi­rit, [Page 12] if it be so, then that he be the childe of God, and that he be wide in this point, (as for mine owne parte I wil not trust him that neuer held error,) how happy had it bene for him, if he had had M. Reinolds his ad­uersarie in liew of M, Some, of whome he might hap­pen haue learned more and bene disgraced lesse. For he that dealeth so mildely with an ennemie, howe christianly thinke you would he haue intreated a bro­ther: whie alasse, the question being, Whether we may be assured to receiue a sacrament at the dumbe ministers hands, is it not possible for a christian in humblenesse to handle this question, vnlesse he runne to Vulcan the blacksmith for weapons, or bring Hercules furens vpon the stage, as M. Some doth, setting out his aduer­sarie in the vilest and most deformed features that he can deuise? and yet he knowes him not neither. Nowe where it pleaseth him to saye, that M. PENRI hath just as many learned of his side, as H. N. the prince of the Familie of Loue: as I woulde not wish M. D. to be therein ouer hastie to sweare, so yet if it were so, he knows that that ouer-worne argument drawne onely from the multitude, can be no stronger for him, then it hath bene heretofore for the papists. But it shoulde fall out nowe (this being a point that hath not beene heretofore greatly looked into) that there should be any more of M. PENRIES minde hereafter, I doe not see but that M. Some may in a sort thanke himselfe for it, and that among many other reasons, this may very well be one, that your Doctor hath caried himselfe so loosely and distemperedly in the cause, seeking ra­ther to plague the man, then to cleare the matter. For when men (desirous euen in simplicitie of heart to learne the trueth) shall sensiblye perceaue that so famous and learned aman as M. Some reputeth him selfe to bee, litle inferiour in aunciencie, (as some [Page 13] thinke) M. Whitguist, can none otherwise assaile or defend the cause, then by houlding (as it were) a na­ked dagger in hand, striuing by all meanes to drawe bloude of his aduersarie, and crying out aloude on the Magestrate, the Magestrate, as if he had solde his lo­gicke to become a jorney man in the shambles: will not this thinke you bring many into a mammering, and make them doubt of that they neuer doubted of? And yet what wil you say if after al this rage & chol­ler, he be so kind harted to grant M. Penri the cause? Surely I am deceaued else, and therefore I pray you tel me your judgment. This among others is one of of M. Penries arguments.

• 1 Euery ministery of the New Testament, is a prea­ching ministerie:
• 2 But the ministerie of our Readers, is not a prea­ching ministerie: Ergo.

To the maior or first proposition M. D. saith thus: If you meane (as I thinke you doe,) every ministery of the word in the newe Testament I dissent not from you: So that he graunts the maior you see. To the minor or second proposition he saith flatly thus. No man doub­teth 185 of this vnlesse he be voide of common sense: And yet there are as learned as M. Some, that dissenting from M. Penri in the point haue denied the minor, aleaging that though the persons them selues could not preach, yet their ministery & Function wherevnto they were called, might iustlie he saide to be a preaching ministerie. But I hope these men (howe lerned soeuer) wil henceforth reuerse their judgment, in that M. Some hath branded them al with this marke, that they are void of common sence. Thus you see howe easilie a wise man may o­vershut him selfe when he is in his ruffe, and there­fore it is most rrue as one saide once. That a pacient minde discerneth aright, but a passionate hart seldome [Page 14] seeth the trueth: here you see your learned doctor hath granted the poore ignorant Welchman, both the ma­ior and the minor, so that I see no shift in the worlde, but only M. Bridgis his shift, that is to deny the con­clusion.

Well (howsoeuer in discretion or otherwise, in a kind of conceitednesse, he may happely overshut him selfe) you tel me that questionlesse he is learned: It may be so, neither wil I say against it: I knowe there may be wine enough in the seller, when there is non in the cuppe, and it may bee that M. Some in this en­coumpter against M. Penri, did chuse rather to look vp his learning against the rising of some billowe or tempest, then to stand powring it out against so weak an aduersarie, whom his conceite might casely en­nough be ouerthrowne with a blast of words: But the thing we stand vpon is this, that howe learned soeuer he be, he hath shewed litle of it in this treatise. And that if those worthy men (whome in hart I reuerence, and whose guises I admire) M. Fulke and M. Whitaker I meane, had acquited them selues noe better against their seueral aduersaries, then M. Some hath done a­gainst his, your famous vniuersitie that you boast of, had bene like enough to haue receiued a scarre in the face long ere this, and therefore let your D. ruffle it neuer so much in bigge words and countenances, yet I can tel you, if he releeue vs not better in his next supply then he hath done hithertoe, (be he as lerned as he wil) we Oxforde men shal thinke that M. Penri hath a greate dealo more cause to feare th'Archb. his purseuant, then your D. penne. For what call you lerning in this age? I would you would your selfe take some paines to draw an Analisis of your Doct. booke and then tel me whether we judge amisse. For mine owne parte I confesse to you I haue viewed it and re­uiewed [Page 15] it, and I finde very litle in it, but that which may easily be drawen to one of these 4: heads.

The 4. prin­cipall heades or common places of M. Somes book

• 1 Bitter and spightful speaches, to bring his aduersarie into danger.
• 2 Bare and naked assertions, as if it were sufficient that himselfe doth say so.
• 3 Needlesse positions that few or none euer doubted of.
• 4 The bare authoritie and Judgement of men without ground.

In these, with the begging of the question, and the praising of himselfe, lieth the sum of his whole booke, I beleeue, I say, you cannot bringe me many thinges out of his treatise, but it may easily be referred to on of these. And these you knowe be noe such fortresses but that they may easily be battered and laide flatt to th'earth by a weker Cannon then euer M. Penri shote in his life. By the way I pray you remember, that I doe not in any sorte take exceptions to M. Somes learning in general, that is, to that knowledge which he fansi­eth to be in him selfe, I meddle not with that: onely to the learning which it hath pleased him to giue vs a tast of in this booke, this is the thing that I thinke a very meane Scholler may justly complaine of with­out danger. And I am verely perswaded, (I beare soe much reuerence to the man) that if it were his doing, he wrote it altogether without studie, as it were vp­on a spleene, or in hast as he was riding to Lambeth. Nowe for the first point which is his bitter & over­passionate speaches, I thinke you haue heard inough al­ready, [Page 16] for no longer a treatise then that is, I dare say you thinke it was enough euea of conscience. For the second, vz. his autos ephe, that is his bare and peremp­tory assertions, if you finde that in any eight penny booke of some 40. leaues or there abouts, (for I think of it selfe it be not much bigger) your D. hath cloyed our eares with aboue 400. of those speches, without Master Some hath in his book, aboue 400. naked assertions. either sappe or salt in them, will you not thinke it strange? To tel you the very truth, I haue taken some paines to reckon them lease by leafe, and I finde them as I tel you aboue 400. much after the nature & com­plection of these: you are not ready: you are to seeke in the principles of diuinity: you knowe not your ignorance: your speaches are very idle: it is noe greate matter what you say: your bolt is soone shotte, your water is very shal­lowe: your eies are not matches, such trisles are toe base for your greate spirits: your conclusion is nothing else but an. Anabaptistical florish: your argument is very nought & fancie: your argument is as weake as a staffe of reede: your argument is as strong as a roppe of sand, euery childe may see the weakenesse of it, but I must be content to put it vp, it is such ware as you haue. He that wanteth woode must burne turse: your writings are like the winde. This beate of yours is like a blaze of thornes, it will last but a while: your cause is nought: your armor is not of proofe: your diuinitie is as a lowe ebbe: your arguments are piti­ful: your answeres are sily, &c. And if I should goe one I thinke I shoulde tyre you: I hope you will witnesse with me, though there may be some little eloquence, yet there is noe greate learninge, Logicke, or diuini­tie in this. It is sure, but the good luck that some men haue ouer others, for if poore M. Penri had written thus, he should haue bene chronicled I warrant you, for a cobling welchman while he had liued.

For the thirde Piller of M. Doctors booke, that is [Page 17] needelesse positions whereof there is smale controuersie, I thinke I shal not neede to wander farr to finde your presidents, for M. Some himselfe in the beginning of both his bookes, doth lay them downe to vs in a role: it were to no vse and a mere spending of time to runn through them all, and therefore I will onely recorde some fewe of them for a tast of the rest.

A godly prince (saith he) may and ought to compell his subiects (if any refuse) to th'externall seruice of God.

This being a matter so notably & throughlie han­deled alreadie by M. Fulke, and M. Wyborne against Howlet, that almost there cannot any thing be added to that which they haue sett downe, I muse your D. would be at cost to print vs a newe Almanacke of the last yeare, I doe not knowe of any that professe the holy religion of God in soundenesse, and sinceritie, that will denie this. And therefore I dare say for M. Penri, that he wil willingly with hart and hande sub­scribe to it, yea and I thinke he will if neede be, adde one clauze more to it for the farther strengthening, and confirmation of the princes authoritie, vz. That the same Prince that hath power de jure to doe this, ought also to compel every preaching minister to be ordi­narily resident on his charge: And if that were put in execution, I thinke M. Some and some others, should not be suffered to roue and range vp and downe as they doe, neglecting theire charges, and breathinge after chaplainship, promotions, and I knowe not what wel, after this he telleth vs forsooth: That able tea­chers ought to be prouided for the Churches, soe much as can be: for the furtherance whereof (if we may beleue his worde) him selfe hath bene a very earnest & hum­ble suppliant both by writinge and speach, yea and he hath receiued very comfortable answere of very greate 54. & honorable personages, &c. and is not that wel? Ther­fore [Page 18] ye hotspirited men wheresoeuer you be, ye may nowe sit downe and surcease your suites and supplica­tions to her maiestie, and the parliament, for you see M. Some hath dealt in it, and hath receued a comfor­table and honorable answere. Nay farther he is not a­fraide to tel vs. That the teachers of religion must haue maintenance. That God blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote the Gospel. That the church of Eng­land is the visible Church of Christ. That magistracie is M. Somes Booke cases Gods ordinance. That the reading of the holy Scriptures doeth edifie. That the scripture is of credit it selfe. That a sermon is not of th'essence of a sacrament. That they whiche are once baptized, must not be rebaptized, &c. Theseyou see be good sure pointes all, but I dare say you think there be non of them very waighty Schole points for all that. For mine owne parte I would bee loath I tel you, to be opponent in any one of them, for I feare my braine could scarse deuise any probable Sy­logisme to shake or batter them with. Nay though I confesse my selfe to be one of the porest haglers that euer our vniuersitie breade, yet I durst by Gods assis­tance defend any on of these against a 100. D. Somes, if it were possible to haue so many in a land. And I tel you true, when I first ranne ouer these your D. deepe misteries, I thought certainly I had bene at one of M. Deane of Westminster his sermons, because he good soule, seldome handeleth any controuersies, but tels the people in good sound english: That vertue is good, and vice is euil. And that me thinks I durst defend my selfe (if neede were,) aswel as any of the rest of M. Somes authenticall principles.

But you shal see he will goe deeper then thus. For as he hath taken paines (wee thanke him,) to sett vs downe a proper short Catechisine in the ende of his booke, to proue to M Penries face, That the regenerate [Page 19] cannot fulfill the law of god: so you shall perceiue that when occasion serues, he will not spare him no more then another man, were he better then he is, & there­fore he feares not to tell him, and that roundly to: If you denie (saith he) that the scriptures read by vnprea­ching ministers do edifie in any sort, you speake blasphe­mously: yea and to the same effect in another place, he boldly layeth before vs, certaine vncontrollable o­racles, but yet such as we haue heard talke of before: He that disliketh (saith he) the reading of holy scriptures is a Swink fieldian heretike: He that mistiketh the admi­nistration of the sacraments is a Massalian heretike: He 184. Mast. Sines booke cases. that misliketh th'invocation of our gratious god, is a fil­thie Athiest. Cocksure, your Dan [...]y lay his life on it, and twentie to one, that th'ignorant Welshman, with all the fantasticall crue, will subscribe to this without racking or imprisonment. For these be called questi­ons without controuersie. Alasse, that reading doth aedifie, considering what a great auncient M. Some is, might very well, for any thing we see, have bene left to one of his Iunior pupils to haue declaimed in, be­cause it was neuer yet, our happs to meete with that man (if he were a scholler) that doubted of it. In deed if he had laid downe the question thus, Whether bare and simple reading be any part of the ministers office, this peraduenture might haue bred a demur euen among the learned: otherwise, that a minister may read, and by that his reading, some aedification may arise, as al­so that he may sing, or doe some other good thinges joyntly with the congregation, we make no question: But when he hath read or song, and done all this, then the question is: whether he haue done any thing that is peculiarly annexed, or appropriate to his office, more then to another man: For we suppose that the office of a minister, standeth onely in these 3, Prea­ching, [Page 20] Prayer, Sacraments. I speake not here of disci­pline, but onely of doctrine. I knowe verye well, that there are many lawfull and commendable preparati­ons or circumstances, before a man come to th'execu­tion of his office, which cannot for all that, rightly be called anye part of the office it self. As for example, a Iudge may ride, may walk, may heare a sermon, may confer with the gentlemen & Iustices, may sit downe on the bench, yea & he ought in wisdom (as occasion serues) to doe al these, yet neuerthelesse the very knot & execution of his office consisteth in non of al these, but only in hearing and determining, for al the rest he might aswel haue done before he was a judge. Euen so we doubt not, but that a minister may walke, may sit, may conferre with his parishioners, may distribute to the poore, may sing, may reade the Scriptures, either priuately or publikely (yea and al these in their time & place with a good conscience, but yet al this while (say we) he is not come to the very marowe and exe­cution of his office, til he come, To deuide the woorde aright: &c. because all the rest, he might wel enough haue done before he was a minister. For if you should aske me now, by what thing a christian man is singled out from a meere natural man, I cannot well answere you by his speach, because that you know, is incident to al men by nature, therefore I must answere you, by the holy profession of his religion. Euē so, if you aske me what is the thing that singles out a minister in his o [...]ce from other christians, if I should answere you, bare reading, you wold laugh at me, for it soundeth to harsshe in the eares of the learned: explosa est senten­cia, it is hissed out of the Scholes, that vnlesse poore M. Deane of Satum take it vp againe, I beleeue it wil lie in the chanel these 20. yeares before any man be so madde to touch it. Therefore I answere you, it is [Page 21] not his reading but his sound preaching in a lawefull function that seuereth him from other men: Neither if you marke it, doth our Sauiour himselfe in that spe­cial charge of his to his Apostles, couple reading with Baptizing but preaching, bidding them goe preach and baptize: And put case her majestie, should commaund a meere lay man to reade the Scriptures publikely in the Church, should this man sinne in refusing or no? I would gladly knowe. I take it he should, because there is no warraunt to the contrarie in the worde: on the other side, if she sholde enjoine a meere lay man to take vnto him the pastoral office, by deuiding the worde and dealing with the sacraments, this man I suppose should sinne grieuously in obeying, because he ought rather to die, then to vsurp that office with­out the lawful calling of the church, so that the bare and sole authoritie of the Magistrate, is sufficient for th'one but not for the other. But this by the way, is but my poore judgment, whereby it may appeare to you, that simple reading, in what account so euer it be amongst men, yet is it not as I conceiue, the thing that doth single out a minister from another christi­an. It must be only (as I tolde you before,) the sound preaching of the word in a laweful function. &c. Beare witnesse I pray you, that I speake heere of sound prea­ching, that is, of deuiding the worde aright which the Apostle calleth orthotomein, I speake not of babling or of handeling a text with a Curricombe, in that I joine with M. Some with al my hart, and therefore I wish he had bene with me the 10. of Nouember last, at a cer­taine Church by the exchange, I thinke they cal it Bartholmewe church, where it may be his ears would haue glowed, and (if he durst haue bene so bolde,) I doe not thinke but he would haue condemnned the preacher and that worthely for his babling. For there [Page 22] he might haue heard him fetch many vagaries, and spend the most of his time in invectiues against good men, telling th'audience to this effect. That for the pa­pists thanks be to God, we need not so greatly feare them, for they were through the vigilans and wisedome of the magistrate reasonably hampered, god be blessed for it: but now the magistrate was onely to cast his eye on the phan­tasticall crue, such as troubled the peace of the Church, o­therwise there might fall out many mischiefes: For so was it done to the Donatists in S. Augustines time, and so to other heretikes in other times. And naming another D. of the Church, either Basill or Chrisostome I take it, I knowe not well whether: he tolde them greatly to their comforts, That he would first tell them his wordes in greeke, & afterward in English, and so he did, belike because they should know that he was a grecian: what a sweet receipt was that trow ye, to such of the people as were either sicke, or troubled in mind? I heare that This prea­cher (as I vn­derstoode since, vvas M. Some himselfe. M. Some vseth to come to that Church himselfe som­time: I pray you when you see him, be in hande with him to shake vp that snuffing preacher for his babling

Farther I pray you beare witnesse with me, that in singling out his minister from other men, I do ad to, The sound preaching of the word, A lawful function. For as I knowe that giftes alone cannot make a minister without a calling, so on th'other side do I thinke, that the bare calling of the Church alone, is not sufficient neither to make a minister, for so might a woman be a minister, whiche M. Some himselfe denies: But both these meeting in one man, that is, giftes and calling together, these I take it, do make a full minister to vs ward, though there be a Nullitie in regard of some in­ward manne that we know not of. Now whereas some doe tell vs, that Admissio indignorum ab Ecclesia non tollit naturam & essentiam Ministerij: that is, The ad­mission [Page 23] of vnworthy ones by the Church, doth not altoge­ther destroy the nature of the ministerie: As wee were much to blame if we woulde striue against this, so it seemeth they say little or nothing to the matter in question, for th'ambiguitie is in this worde Indigno­rum, vnworthinesse. I know that a practizing papist is an vnworthie subject, but yet a subject: So may a man of vicious life be a minister, though an vnworthy mi­nister: But on th'other side, what say you to these? A dumb man from his cradle is an vnworthy orator: A blind man from his cradle is an vnworthie painter. These be good sence and good Englishe both, and yet it is vn­possible that any of these should be at all, such as they are named to be: eyther the first an Orator, or the Int­ter a Paynter: And therefore I take it (by their fauor) that this word vnworthinesse, is something too gene­rall, and thereby somthing too weake, to expresse suf­ficiently, Questiones & controuersiae energiam: because it may as well be applied to that which is, as to that which is not, and as M. Penri saith, by a mangled bo­die, that some be so mangled that they haue no life in them at all. So say we by these vnworthy ones: some be so vnworthie, as they are not at all that thing whereof they haue their name. And therefore where M. Some saieth, That the Sacramentes are not the better for the worthinesse, nor the worse for th'vnworthinesse of the man: wee yeeld he saith true, and yet nothing to the matter: yet me thinkes it had bene a great deale nee­rer the point, if in liew of these vnworthie ones, they had incerted these words, Corum qui non sunt omnino ministerij capaces, that is, Which are not at all capable of the ministery: and then we suppose the assertion had bene sound and to the purpose: For not th'admission of euery vnworthy one (in that in deede they say true) but th'admission of such an vnworthie one, as is alto­gether [Page 24] vncapable of the ministerie (as infants, women fooles, mad men, dumbe men, &c) those we saye, doe wholly ouerthrowe the nature and essence of the mi­nisterie, and is (as the lawyers cal it) a none est factum or as a lease that is void assoone as it is made. Where­vpon if they reply, that Sola Ecclesia vocat, The Church onely calleth in this age, and that God doeth not now (as in times past by Paule and others) call extraordi­narily, or miraculously from heauen, but hath resigned that power solely and whollie to his Churche, wee graunt it is true: But then the question is, what kinde of power this is, whether it be a power without ex­ception, or a limited power? Wee saye it is a limited power & hath his bounds, that it cannot passe (I speak not here de iure, but de posse) And indeed it must needs be so in dispight of our harts, though we should burst our selues in wrangling about it. For first I am sure they will not denie, that the Churche in this her ad­mission, is limited onely to liuing creatures, for if she should make an image a minister, there were present­ly a nullitie. Secondly she is limited onely to the seed of Adam, for if she shoulde make an Ape a minister, there were presently a nullitie. Thirdly out of the seed of Adam she is limited only to the sexe of man, if she should make a woman a minister, there were present­ly a nullitie. Out of the sexe of man she is limited on­ly (say we) to those that can speake, and haue the vse of reason: for if shee shoulde make a naturall, a madd man, or a dumbe man a minister, there were present­ly (as we think) a nullitie. Now M. Penri goeth an ase further, and saith, that of those men that can speake, & haue the vse of reason, shee is limited onely to suche as haue gifts, and are in some measure Thithacticoi, or else (as he holdeth) there is also a nullitie. And here is that so hainous & blasphemous error of his, that hath [Page 25] so distempered M. Some, and for the which he would so faine haue the magistrate to conjure him. Whiche, whether it be an error or no, as for mine owne part, I am not able to defyne it, so yet doe I see, that when men haue runne themselues windlesse in wanderinge, yet must they of force in th'ende come to this, to en­quire, Qualis est potestas Ecclesiae in admissione ministro rum, & quibus circumscripta finibus, that is, what kind of power the Church hath, and within what boundes to be limited, for therein consisteth the very marowe and sinewes of the whole controuersie, to know how far the Church may stretch her arme in this case. Yet by the way I cannot but muze at one thing, that the popish churches should finde more grace and fauout in this our Metropolitan State, then the reformed churches of other nations. For it is graunted you see, that the popish shauelings and their priests of Baal haue forsooth a calling though afaultie one, but doe you think that this will be granted to those of our mi­nisters that were only ordained by the reformed chur­ches beyond sea? Nay soft, Be judge by M. Whitting­ham, whome it is knowne th'Archb. of Yorke called in question for his calling, in that he was made mini­ster at Geneua: I haue heard also, that M. Trauers when he was thrust out of the Temple, was bidden by my Lord of Cant. to proue his calling, alleaging that he was no minister, (for what authoritie saith he in his choller, hath M. Cart. to make a minister?) Therefore you may see the lucke of it, popish wret­ches and Apostates, breathed vppon only by such as themselues are, haue a callinge, but other worthye men (caled to the ministery by worthy churches) must sine a newe for their letters of orders, is not this good stuffe thinke you? Wel sithence it is knowne that M. Trauers was in deede ordeined a minister by a refor­med [Page 26] church beyond the sea, I woulde your D. durst in his next discourse, be as kinde to that poore ministery of his, as he hath bene hithertoe to the popish priest­hood, that is of curtesie, (in respect of the credit of the Reformed churches,) to giue it some allowance of a calling, yea albeit his grace of Cant. should stand against it. For he knowes it can be no more blasphe­mie in M. Penri, to say that the popish church can not make a minister, then it is in an other greter man to say that the reformed churches cannot make a mi­nister. But I feare me M. Some is not at leasure, he wil pleasure vs in an other matter, for such a dash with a penne as this might happely breede a scabbe, why is it not well that he taketh our parts in the Nullitie of womens ministerie: but still men will be regrating more at his hands? Therefore because we will holde him where we haue him, I wil be so bold in that point to recorde his words, lest in time he giue vs the slippe men growe so giddy headed nowe a daies: They that haue heard my sermons saith he, or read my writings doe knowe very wel that I alowe of non to preach the worde, 81 or administer the sacraments, without a calling, therfore neither woman nor priuate man: plainly implying that it is vnpossible for a woman to haue any calling: I promise you, I was glad when I reade it with all my hart, for I was halfe a fraide before, I tel you that we should haue some learned paradoxe, or some godly treatise in the defence of the ministery of weomen, with this or the like prety gloze, Quoad substantiam, but not quoad qualitatem: or else with this. That they should haue had a calling though a faltie one, which had bene but peccatum ecclesiae: or else with this, that the sexe had bene but of th'essence of a lawful & good mini­ster, but not of a minister simply, and that for vs it shold suffice only to muffie our faces, with a setled perswa­sion [Page 27] that Ministerium is datum, and acceptum, and so hang wholly vpon th'ordination of the church with­out farther questioning or inquirye. Al this I tel you, I was a fraide of, but nowe sithence we are sure of M. Some one our side, we shal feare the lesse the assaults of others, as hauing on string more to our bowe then we looked for. For he is as learned in his conceite as the best of them, and if he take a pitch, I beleue he wil be as hot as the best of them toe for neede. And thus by occasion of your D. worthy position, that reading doth edisie, haue I fallen as you see cursorie into the question of the ministers office, and so of the calling of the ministerie: It is but my poore verdicte you see, and therefore you neede not make a recorde of it, vn­lesse you list, for you knowe what a deep clarke I am, if you desire farther to be satisfied in the point, I re­ferr you ouer to him, to whome the matter especially appertaineth, who I hope will either answere his ad­uersarie with lesse ven [...]me and more modesty then he finds at his hands, or els giue over the cause in silence: For mine owne part, as my skil is not greate, so doe I not hould any thing, but I am apt enough to recall it, if you or a meaner man then you, can bringe me the word to refute it, but hithertoe I confesse I see noe far­ther.

Well your D. hath yet an other wipe at th'igno­rant Welchman, which I had like to haue forgotten, the best is, it is with an if aswel as the rest: If you thynk 176 saith he, that al the popish sort, that died in the popish Church are damned, you thinke absurdly: most true they that thinke so, thinke absurdly in deede, and I pro­mise you, therein I must hould with M. Some, that if M. Penri thinke so, he is much to blame. But I pray you aske your D. when you see him, vpon what wall, or with what cole M. Penri did record this thinking [Page 28] of his, for as yet I beleeue this monster is vnborne, & vnheard of. And how if M. Penri or some of the fan­tastical crewe should nowe in riquitall say thus. If you thinke M. Some that the calling of a B. or an Archb. is agreable to the worde, you think absurdly: or thus, if you hold that a man may be anonrestdent from his charge at his pleasure, you erre grosly: or thus, if you say that the Discipline & gouernment of the Church, is not prescri­bed in the word, & that Moses was amore faithful lawgi­uer then Christ our Sauiour, you speake blaspemously? Why what is al this to M. Some? For he is not sure so grosse to maintaine any of these, and therefore wee doubt not but he may wipe his mouth, and washe his hands, and wonder to whome they speake. Euen soe may M. Penri I dare warrant for the other, whoe though he be shrewdly threatened by many of these rigorous and thundering Statutes of M. Somes, yet so longe as euery one of them haue their gentle de­saisans, there is no danger in any of them, for Threate­ned men (they saye) liue long, if M. Penri doe so or so, then saith M. Some he speaks blasphemously, he ers gros­ly, & thinks absurdly, and I knowe not what. But if he doe not soe, then belike he hath his supersedeas, and discharge from errors, absurdities, & blasphemies and al. This is some comfort yet, and may happen fall out wel in th'issue, for these isfs, imaginations & supposalls of men, do weigh so light in the ballance of the wise, that they may as easely with one and the same breath be defaced, as euer they were coyned at the first, for who can let a man to batter in peeces that prety I­mage which he made himselfe. Therefore for a full answere to all these isss, if I were as M. Penri, I would no more, but faire lappe vp this sentence in some let­ter, and send it M. Some of a toaken, to see whether he knowe it or noe: I deale plainly with you. If my answers [Page 29] please you not, confute them directly, and not with iffes, ands, & whyes: In which kinde of answering (if I may cal 174 it answering) you haue a speciall grace. And againe man other place: When you prooue this if of yours. I will ac­cept 91 your answere, &c. Me thinks when M. Some looks in this glasse, he shold neuer trouble the reader more with any of those conjecturall syllogismes, made one­ly of iffes and ands. As concerning this last iff of h [...]s, I hope there is no man so farre gone, to pronounce any definitiue sentence vpon all those that departed this life in popery. That being th'onely office of God him selfe, it must needs be too much presumption, and be­yond the reache and commission of any mortall man, so to define: But if it had pleased M. Some to haue ad­ded but one word more to his sentence, & set it down thus: All the popish sort that dye papistes in the popishe Church. If I say, he had added but this word papist, thē do I not see (by his fauor) hat there had bene any ab­surditie in it at al: For we hold, that to him that dieth a papist (let him do neuer so many good workes, and bu [...]lde if it were possible, ten thousande Colledges or Churches) the verie gates and porteculleses of Gods mercie are quite shutt vp, and all those his glorious work, how sweet soeuer they may be to others, shall be but wrack and misery to himself. And in this point if either M. Hooker, M. Some, or all the reuerend Bb. of the land doe stand against vs, it shall little dismaie vs, we say w [...]th your owne D. (but yet not altogether as he) I [...]s [...]er mille, he saith Platonis, but we say veritatis calculus. Now if you tell me, that a man may returne at the last gaspe, and so renouncing all other meanes, cast him selfe wholly vpon the merits and bloodshea­ding of Chr [...]ste Iesus, (as M. Some saith in one place, That many of them haue died Gods seruants) then say I, this man dieth not a papiste, whatsoeuer he were be­fore: [Page 30] Nay M. Foxe saith flatly, he dieth a Lutheran, for Iustification by merit and works, is the very heart, life and soule of papistrie.

By these and the rest, it may easily appeare to you, that your D. might very well haue spared the better halfe of his paines, and haue done full as much good as he hath. They say it is an euill bargaine that no bo­die thriues by. Therefore if it should fall out so nowe, that for all these sweete lessons, drawne with such ad­visement into seuerall chapters, neither M. Some him­selfe should be the more reuerenced, nor M. Penri & his disciples the better instructed: what should a man say to this world? but that Satione belike had a frow­ning aspect when the bookes were sent to the presse. Now if you aske me what should be the reason why so many things out of question, shoulde be thus jum­bled & enterlaced as it were, in one rolle, with things of question and controuersie indeede, let this suffize you, that there is a misterie in it, yea and such a miste­rie, as peraduenture euerie one seeth not, & I beleeue I could go neer to gesse where M. D. learned it, I pray you what cal you him, that giueth in his coat. An asse with a tippet about his necke, and writes vnderneath, Come and see? He should sure be some ancient gentle­man by his coate: I meane that proper scholler that could speake Englishe before I was borne: hee that hath giuen Calvine and Beza suche a blowe, as they could neuer speake word of good Irish since: I meane him that sucked so long, till he could carie his mother a stoole, and that phisitions say, is a shrewde thing for the brain. That pretie pigeon that wrote the 16. great volumes in defence of the Hierarchie of Bb. but as he hath handled it, it may serue aswell for the foule caw­sey betwixt Glocester and Bristow: I doe not meane Tarleton man, Tushe no, I meane that musicall Poet, [Page 31] that can so ingeniously translate rime into prose, and prose into rime againe: That patch of S. Maries pul­pit, what should I call him? Bridges, Bridges, a shame on him, I shal hit on his name anon: This is he I feare me, that taught M. Some this tricke, and yet when it is looked into, it wil be found but a sluttish tricke nei­ther I beleeue. This Bridges you must vnderstand, is bound in a recognisance. The condition is this, That if euer he hurt puritane by any learning, reason, logicke, di­uinitie, The recog­nisance that M. Bridges standeth bound in. or good gramaticall sense, then he sorsaits al that euer he hath to her Maiestie, and is vtterly vndone for e­uer. Now because he hath a pretie good will to hurt them, and yet this Recognisance standes so full in his waye, that he cannot well do it without his losse, see what a fetch that ioule of his hath cōtriued: he brings mee in after his patched manner, certaine assertions (which himself doth not wel vnderstād neither) Som of the Frenchmen against the gouernment of women, some of th'anabaptists against the lawfulnes of magi­stracie, some of the Brownistes that saye we haue no Church. And these forsooth, he mingleth as wel as his reach will serue him (like darnell among wheat) with such other sounde doctrines and grounded truethes as his brethren haue set downe in defence of Discipline, and euery hand while he bids them, Beware least they fall into any of those soule errors, for their speaches and writings tend shrewdly that way: which he for his part, good man, is sorie for: And why doth the patch doe this, but only to draw the state to beleue (if he could) that his puritane brethren whom he writeth against, are in one and the same predicament with these? As if the state were as bleare eyed as himselfe, and coulde not discerne both of the soundnes of the one, & of the wretchednesse of the other, vnlesse they borowed his glasse to looke in. And were not that state in an wo­full [Page 32] taking thinke you, that should fetch their paterne of direction from suche an Astrologer as he? By the way, nowe I thinke on it, I woulde you could get M. Some (marrie it must be in his good moode, when his choller is past) to tell you betwixt you two, whether hee thinkes the better scholler in good earnest, the poore ignorant Welshman or the deane of Sarum: I know he hath alreadie past his sentence of condemna­tion verye farre vpon one of them, making him in all good knowledge, no better then a very abject of the earth: but what then? yet me think▪ on th' other side, he shoulde neuer looke aduisedly vppon his brother Bridges, but he should blush for joye. And this offer I dare be bolde to make him, on the behalfe of that worthie deane, that let him take into his handes, not onely M. Penries workes, but the writings of all those that they call puritanes for the space of these twenty yeares or better: if I do not finde more grosse, proud, popish, treasonable & blasphemous absordities, more impudent reuilings, and slaunderous vntrueths, more apparant contradictions, more Skoggins jeasts, more ryming in prose, more childish foolerie., more sottish shamelesse, and sencelesse periods in that one booke alone, then can justly be collected out of all the o­ther, I will loose my head for it.

And yet would you thinke that in this learned and lightsome age of the Gospel, any mans eies should be so beglazed, or his forehead so beseared as to bestowe a laudate vppon such a companion as this? Nowe sure we shall come to a pretty passe shortly, what trowe you wil be the next peece of work, that that good fel­lowe wil venter to commend vnto vs? Belike the ver­tuous attempts of the Spanish Inquisitors, prouided that they will not disturb th'ierarchie of L. Bb. Som sweet Admonition to the people of England, in praise of such [Page 33] honest men as these, would sure maruelous wel, with that sauage comendation of Parson Bridges his bo [...]ke They say it was my L. of Winchesters worke: If it were, then hath his L. woone his spurrs for euer, if in nothing els, yet in this, that he ha [...]h so l [...]berally be­stowed a cold piece of pasty crust vpon that packsadle of Sarum: wel whosoeuer it were, if it were an Oxford man, I must needs be sory for him, because his honest­est shift must be nowe to pleade ignorance. That he by his troth tooke it to be a profound piece of worke, in his poore conceit, otherwise if he be learned, and of judg­ment in deede, what neede the puritans write against him, when his owne very hand hath bene th' instru­ment, to giue himselfe such an open brandmarke of impudencie, as if he should liue th'age of Methuselah he should hardly be able to wipe it out: being a thing vnpossible, that any man of sound judgment, should euer commend that booke in earnest, but that the ve­ry light of his owne hart, must straight flashe him in the face with the lye. And I would they durst put their Lordly jurisdictions vpon the jumpe of this tryall, I woulde I say they durst hazard their whole title vpon this issue, whether that be an ignorant or a learned book or noe. They haue had heretofore many a round offer of disputation, touching the vnlawfulnes of their cal­lings, which I will neuer blame them if they brooke not, for if they would accept of it, (their case beinge with them as it is) they were worse then madde, but this is some thing a lesse offer then that, and of lesse prejudice and disgrace vnto them, because it touch­eth them but a latare as it were, only in this, that they haue not blushed to commend this booke vnto vs for the sufficiencie, and wee one the other side, hold the slat contrary, that it was one of the reproches of our Lande, that euer it was suffered to passe the presse. [Page 34] Nowe in this case whoe must be judge? If I shoulde name Oxforde men vnto you, it may be you woulde thinke me partial. Therefore seeing M. Bridges him­selfe is a Cambridge man, let him hardly be tried by his peeres of the same vniuersitie, and let the grand­fathers (if they dare,) put it to the censure of D. Fulke D. Whitaker, M. Cartwright and M. Chaterton, men I hope as wel able to judge as al the L. Bb. in Christen­dome. And if by the veredict of these it be not founde as I haue saide, one of the poorest, grossest, and rawest piece of woorks of that bignes, that came out in Eng­lish since her Maiesties raigne, let the conquest hard­ly be theirs, and let them possesse their seats in peace, and the reproch light one the puritans for euer: if o­therwise, then let them yeelde themselues guiltie and resigne. But I beleue as wel as they loue M. Bridges, they had rather see him ouer the eares in purgatorie, or fast bound in the house of Inquisition, then to haz­ard the least of their Bishopptickes, vppon any such triall.

With what reason then can M. Some so distemper himselfe against M. Penri for one poore error, if it be an error, crying out so loude, and so often, blasphemy blasphemy, and I knowe not what, and in the meane time, suffer that clotheade of Sarum to go away with a whole fardle of errors and absurdities, and not to say Black was his eie? Or what measure call you this, not to giue M. Penri leaue to dissent from Caluin for once no not euen there, where he supposeth he hath the worde one his side, and to ride by M. Bridges as if he sawe him not, when he taketh vppon him to treade both Caluin and Beza vnder his feet, yea and to throw dust, as it were, one their faces, euen in those points where al the learned knowe they haue both the Scrip­tures, the counsels and fathers with them? Surely there [Page 35] can be noe indifferencie in this at all. M. Bridges saith that his good and learued discoursing brethren, (for those I take it be his words,) doe erre fowly, and fall into a number of monstrous and impossible absurdi­ties, and why? Forsooth through th'ouermuch credite of these famous men, Caluin, Beza, Daneus and the rest. But howe shall wee doe nowe? M. Some coms in the necke of this with his appeale, and remoues this mat­ter with a Sursurare to a higher court, and there hee puts in a quite contraty plea to M. Bridges, telling vs more then once, that he for his parte, resteth wholly in the judgment of these excellent men, & that if M. Penri had done so, he had sailed a sure compasse, & not swarued from Gods booke, &c. Yea and he addeth moreouer, & that in good earnest I warrant you, that he more este­meth of one Caluin, then of a thousand Penries. And wil he giue his poore bretheren leaue, to answere Father Bridges in that plaine matter toe. That they more este­med of one Caluin or Beza, then of a thousand Bridges? Why alasse then the poore man, is vndone, his whole booke may goe to the washhouse. But in this fowle rent of judgment betwixt your 2. D. what will M. Some say to this? He that was last B. of Norwitch and is nowe (if I be not deceiued,) ether of Peterborough or of Worcester, calling once before him a godly mi­nister of Suffolke, one M. Swette, about some small breach of the booke in the administration of baptisme when the saide M. Swette for his just defence, had brought forth the iudgment of M. Beza, the good B. in his angrye moode replied thus, what tellest thou me of Beza? Beza I tell thee is but a brabler. In like manner my L. of Cant. hauing once before him one Thomas Settle a preacher, about some doctrine that he had taught of Christs descending into Hell, when the said M. Settle alleaged for himselfe, that the doc­trine [Page 39] taught by him, had not only the warrant of the holy scriptures, but also the approbation & testimony of the best writers of our age, as namely, of M. Caluin and others: What tellest thou vs of Caluin? (Quoth the B. in very disdainful sort,) I tel thee there are here that can teach Caluin. At which time, there satte in commission, th'Archb. him selfe, the Deane of West­minster, D. Pearne and Cousins, a proper band of mu­sitians to teach Caluin. But belike he meant it only by his old Patrone and benefactor, D. Pearne, for whoe but he could teach Caluin to fetch a turne, and a re­turne? As for any other kinde of good learning, wher­by a mans knowledg might be bettered, or his con­science comforted, he that had Caluins guistes, and would make any pilgrimage to Lambeth for a supply, were worthy to be muffled in M. Bridges h [...]s hoode. By this you may see that if M. Penri should set light by Caluin or Beza, (as I dare say it is farre from his very hart) being men that I doubt not he doth many waies reuerence as notable instruments of God, yet I say, if he shoulde doe so, he hath you see his warrant and protection vnder seale, and that from M. Somes betters, euen of the highest and grauest prelates of our Land, wherein I obserue one prety tricke, that yee Cambridge men haue aboue others, that is, that yee can m [...]ke of the newe writers, as Marchants doe of their Counters euen what yee list, sometime a 100. pounds, & somtimes 6. pence against M. Penri, Caluin shalbe instarmontis, aske M Some els. But against M. Bridges, or against the hierarch [...]e of L. Bb. or any th [...]ng that they holde in their consistory, both Caluin, Beza, and Danaeus, yea and there were an hundreth mere of them, they shal be all put to silence for want of subscr [...]ption.

Therefore for that point of relying so wholly and [Page 37] absolutely vppon the authoritie of men, (which as I haue saide, is an other great piller of your doctors booke,) I doe not see but that M. Some (consideringe howe faine he would be thought somebody in the eie of the learned,) hath by this meanes rather disaduan­taged him selfe, by bringing the credite of his owne judgment into baser account, thē it may be, his srends would haue w [...]shed him, who might otherwise perad­venture in some things, haue conceiued as reuerently of him as of Calvin himself. I remember I heard once a notable diuine say in pulpit. That he was not worthye to be a minister of the Gospell, that could not in som mea­sure wring sorth the sence of the holy ghoste, euen by the Scripture it selfe without an interpretor: So far was he, from resting in any mans judgement, that he did alto­gether condemne those that brought nothing else with them into the pulpit, but what they had gathe­red out of Augustine, Cyprian, Aretius, Caluin, or som such old or new writer. And I put case Caluin & Beza had neuer written, howe woulde M. Some haue done? would his breasts trow ye, haue bene so dryed vp, that he should neuer haue giuen milke of his owne? that had bene pitie. I confesse to you I reuerence D. Fulke, and no disparagement to any, I thinke him vniuersal­ly as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was: But what then? yet were it you know, but a poore judge­ment in matter of controuersie, barely to saye thus, I rest wholly in his judgement. I had thought that where Caluine and Beza had beene wide, as no question but they are wide somtimes (for I dare not trust him I tell you that neuer helde errour) there a man might haue had some resolution at M. Somes handes, with reasons alleaged of their seueral slips and ouersights, but now I perceiue he that had made such a journey to master Some, should haue but lost his labour, and haue beene [Page 38] frustrate of his hope, for it seemeth he woulde neuer haue made him other answer then this: Irest in their iudgements. In which regard, there is some reason yet, that M. Bridges shoulde be priuiledged aboue others, thogh the good soule do not rest in any of their judg­mentes, because he doth not lightly rest in his owne, for if he chance to set downe any thing in one booke, he is commonly so kinde hearted, to pull it backe a­gain in another, and what reason were it, he should be more tyed to them then to himselfe? Well, for all this jesting, I would you would take some paines to recon­cile me your two Cambridge doctors. I know perad­uenture what you will say, that you are sure M. Some is nothing so bleare-eyed as M. Bridges, and therefore to a wise man the choyce is soone made which way to encline: wherein as I haue smal reason to dissent from you; (because I do not thinke I tell you, that for that disease, which they call Th'opolexie of the braine, the Deane of Sarum hath many fellowes of his standing in Christendome) so do I the rather thinke it strange, that so graue a man as M. Some woulde be reputed to be, should be so bewitched, to followe in any sort the sleps and traces of him, whom (in regard of all sounde knowledge and judgement) his owne very heart must needs condemne for a drudge. And why then should your D. so egerly pursue his poore aduersarie, by en­deuoring to make him hateful to the state, as if there were no way to cleare the matter, then by crying out on the Magistrate to conjure the man, sithence Ma­ster Bridges vseth it? Why should he so peremptorily condemne him he knowes not, with all the bitter and evenimed speaches he can deuise, sithence M. Bridges vseth it? Why should he huddle in a number of isses, and strange opinions, that all the worlde knowes his aduersarie disavoweth, sithence M. Bridges vseth it? [Page 39] In summe, why should he not hate and detest al those bad sleights, that sauor neither of learning nor hone­stie, sithence so brazen a face as Bridges doth both vse them, practize them, and can scarce make a good fly­logisme without them.

Now for that point of Begging the question, though it please him neuer so much to florish it ouer with the name of Beza and others, telling M. Penri that His 8 [...] answere is beggerly, &c. Yet by his fauor, he cannot so wipe it away, but that it may justly bee charged and recharged vpon his head with a witnesse. As to begin wi [...]hal, what cal you this I pray you? my reason is (saith he) The popish Church is a Churche, though an vnsounde 163 175 Church: Twice or thrise at the least, he is at coste to bestow this vpon vs as a reason, and what is this else, but a begging of the question. For howe if a man will not be so kinde hearted, to grant him that it is not a­ny visible Church of God at al, where is he then? Thē you know he must about againe, with a newe voyage into Portingall for more great reasings, for this rea­son will not serue his turne. And that we haue small reason to yeeld him this, shall appeare by Gods grace hereafter, because all the reasons that euer we coulde see hitherto, haue bene in our judgements too weake to prooue it to be anye Churche of God at all. In the meane season, that it is doubtfull & questionable at the least: me thinks a man that so vanteth himselfe of reading & knowledge, as M. Some doth, should not be ignoraunt. We see Anthonie Tyrrell, one of the Semi­narie priesies that lately recanted at Paules, makes a doubt of it in these wordes, If that may be called (saith he) a Churche, that is infested with so great a contagion, 4 [...] which being aduisedly perused, seene and allowed, & so suffered to passe the presse without a razure, impli­eth that (howsoeuer M. Some woulde ouer rule the [Page 40] case, as he doth many others with his Censociall rod) there is neither danger nor heresie to holde the con­trarie, sithence our Church doth allow men to make an if at it. What means your D. then to plead it in e­vidence, as an vnsuspected testimonie, when the thing is either disputable, or cleane against him. Wherein if he falted but once yet, as it were a crashe and away to recreat himselfe, he were to be borne with: But it see­meth he hath some delight in it, in that he plods vpon it in a maner in euery lease, so that if his last treatise be well examined, it will be found, that he hath proo­ued the question, by the thing in question, & brought in one razed record to prooue another, no lesse then 30. or 40. times at the least. As in this 192. pag. where he gathereth, that M. Penri should say that the dispen­sation of our readers ministerie doth feede none, therein he chargeth him To erre grosly: And what is his reason, for it is like you knowe, to be some reason of waight, that should so apparantly conuince a man of so grosse an error: My reason is (saith he) that the Sacramentes administred by them, doe comfort and feede the soules of 192 the godly communicantes: for the vertue of the Sacra­ments, dependeth not vpon any minister whatsoeuer, &c. Here marke I pray you, he takes it for graunted, that both the things deliuered be sacraments, and that the men deliuering them be ministers, which as I cōceiue is the very maine point in controuersie, betwixt his aduersarie and him, vz. Whether our readers be mini­sters or no, and thereby whether we can be assured to re­ceiue any Sacrament at their handes. Notwithstanding all which, your learned D. as if he were strongly be­taken with M. Bridges his swimming in the head, will needes pawn vs this for reason, thinking belike, to go smooth away withall, That they are ministers forsooth, and that the Sacraments from their hands, doe both feed [Page 41] and comfort, &c. As if I to prooue vnto you, that our Bb. should haue no superioritie ouer other ministers, should bring in this for a reason, That their callings are vnlawfull: Though this were true (as heauen and earth knowes it to be most true, howsoeuer like mise­rable men they striue to avoid it) yet you might justly take exceptiōs to my proof, as a flat begging of the que­stion. Euenso look how often it shall please M. Some to warble vppon any of these notes, ether That the popish Church is a church, though an vnsound Church, or that bare readers be ministers, or that the Sacraments from their hands doe both feede and comfort. &c. So often are we not afraide to tel him and tel him againe, that it is ameere childish begging of the question, vnworthie of any mā that beareth the face of lerning. And yet in this veine, doth he very nere spend & cōsume himself thorow our his whole booke: Talke of a sacrament, why he proues they deliuer it thus, they haue a calling: Speake of a Calling, he proues it thus, they deliuer a sa­crament. And thus backward and foreward, vppe and downe, from one end to another, he werieth both him selfe and the reader, so cloying vs with A sacrament by a calling, and A calling by a sacrament, as it is able to make a horse to breake his halter, and me thinkes ye Cambridge men should blushe to thinke that euer any mans penne should be driuen to that penury: nei­ther doe I thinke that you can bringe me the like pa­terne in any treatise of that bignesse written since Iur maiesties raigne. And yet this is the man that wil haue vs knowe forsooth, that there is nothing to be had at his hands in diuinitie matters, but by force of argument, if you thinke (saith he) that I will come of otherwise you 119 are in a wrong boxe: for I intend not to be at your whisle &c. The best is if you marke it, he speaks heere onely of diuinitie matters, and nothing els, so that if a man [Page 42] should happen to deale with him in Lawe, Phisicke, or Philosophie, there is some hope yet we should finde him more tractable. But in diuinitie matters there is noe mercy with him, he hath tolde vs what we shall trust vnto, either arguments or nothing, yet I woulde you would aske him in his eare, whether a Deanrye or a Bishopricke, would not preuaile as much with him in mat [...]er of Diuinitie, as the best argument in Christendome? For if nothing will doe good of him but arguments, howe shal poore M. Bridges and I doe with him, that haue scarse a good argument betwixte vs to throw at a dogs heade? We had best kepe vs out of his way, til the edge of these arguments be some­thing overworne, and that we hope wil not be longe, especially if he light once in one of these swete Dean­ries or Bishopricks. Then I trust a man may speake with him vnder a couple of Capons, then I hope hee wil not be so hasty to fright vs with these forcible ar­guments. For it may be he wil not be at leasure, he wil haue somewhat els to doe: his Chappell and his Or­ganes, with other such implements and impediments moe, will keepe him I trust from doing vs any greate hurt, either in Lodgicke or Diuinitie while he liues. Then we looke rather he should doe as the rest of his comperes are woont to doe, that is, liue of the stocke, and waste of the stoare, till they be within a little of bankerour: as for arguments and matter of controuer­sie, because they growe olde themselues, alasse, they may leaue that to Watson or Walton, Haslop or Mun­day, or some such sweete Chapleine of theirs, whoe haue excelent witts at whipcoard conclusions, to ma­nicle these puritans with.

Well as it is cleare you see, that M. Some can begg the question as wel as his betters. So you shal wel per­ceue, that he can speake for himselfe, if his neighbors [Page 43] wil not. And in deede for that good guift of sounding forth the trumpet of his owne praises, he shal haue it of all, and of al. To begin withal, what say you to this? If you wil knowe (saith he) what I thinke of sound prea­ching before th'administration of th'holy Sacrament, my 97 answere is, that I doe greatly both like and commend it. &c. This mind was I euer of since I knewe what gods Re­ligion & good Diuiuitie meant: howe say you? Is not sound preaching much beholden to M. Some, that wil of his curcesie vouchsafe it both his liking and com­mendation? Belike it had bin in some danger to h [...]ue lost his credite, if M. Some had not reached forth his hand to giue it some alowance: wel for al that he had best looke to it, that he doe not only affoard it his good lik [...]ng in words, but that he reuerence it in deed from his hart, and that to some measure of practize, if he loue his owne soule: otherwise wee can tell him it wil bruize him into powder in th'end, were he 10. times better then he is, being (as he may e [...]silie lerne by th'Apostle) either A Sauour of life vnto life, or A Sauour of death vnto death: and therefore not to be dallied withall, as if it were as our pleasures to enter­taine it or reiect when we thinke good, but he that doth it not, that is, he that doeth not embrace the word preached, as the message of saluation with trem­bling and feare, may be sure (without repentance) he very curse of God will overtake him and his seede, what meanes your D. then to tel vs so solemly of his good liking of sounde preaching, when in paine of Gods vengeance he is bound to like it? But he telleth vs farther, that it hath pleased many of excellent lear­ning 66 and wisdome to like of his treatise. Sure if they did so, then is th'olde prouerbe verified, that Blessing go­eth by sauour. Some B. belike or Bishopl [...]ke man, for I doe not thinke that any man els would abuse him so [Page 44] much And you may tel your Doct. from, me that cer­tainly if they were Courtiers they did but flout him, if they were learned and of judgment in deede, they did but flatter him And therefore for mine owne part I cannot so much condemne him in this case, if in the want of Heraulds and some other good friends, he be forced as it were, to make an emblazure of his owne coate armor himselfe, who can blame him then: if in speaking of the ignorant ministers he tel vs him­selfe, when no man els will tel vs for him, That his writings and sermons are not Ajax shield to couer them, 150 but the Lords sworde to cut them? So that if any man be desirons newe to finde out the swoorde of the Lord, where shall he redilier come by it, then about the ex­change or those places where M. Some vseth to prech, there he may happen heare news of it. But by the way can you shewe me any writer olde or newe, that euer gaue that name of the Lords sworde to his owne wri­tings and sermons with his owne mouth, but only M. Some? I knowe right wel, that the true preaching of the worde, is both the fire of God to burne, the water of God to quench, and the sworde of God to cut be­twixt the marrow and the bones: but what of that? Yet it may be doubted whether M. Some may justly brag of any such apparant successe of his labours: and if he could, yet me thinks modesty might haue taught him rather to haue left the publishing and emblazinge thereof to others, then thus out of season to be the proclaimer of it himselfe, indeede if a man marke it, there is much a do through out his whole booke with his writings, his words, his reasons, his answeres, his ser­mons, &c. which it semeth he woulde faine fasten vp­pon posteritie for lawes and statutes, as if the ground of al good knowledge were grauen in the very wrin­kles of his forehead: in one place he tels M. Penri, [Page 45] that he may as easily fetch oile out of a flint, as any such consequents out of his writings. &c. And againe, They 81 which haue heard my sermons, or reade my writings, &c. And yet more, my own words in this present Chapter, are as cleare as the Sunn. &c. what should a man talke of it then, when al things that M. Some doth are so cleare, so direct, and in so good proportion? There be men in the world, that write out of jointe sometimes, speake darkely and intricately, and make many euil conse­quents, but they be not belike of that colledg that M. Some was of, where a man shall as soone fetch oile out of a flint. &c. as any thing that hath not his weight & measure, and therefore no maruel if he call his owne writings and Sermons, The Lords sword to cut these ig­norant ministers, for he that doeth neuer any thinge out of square, must needs cut deepely I trowe. In deed if he coulde so cut them, that they might be quite cut of the ministerie, it were a happy cuttinge both for them and our church. But that he is not the man that is like to worke this cure, we see by his lookes. For as our Sauiour Christ saith to his disciples, This kinde of Matth. 17. Deuill is not cast out but by praier and fasting. So wee say to M. Some, that this kinde of Deuil or deadly sore of our dombe ministery, (which may rightly be called Vlous Matricis, that so feastereth and wrankeleth in­wardly, euen to the very bowels of our Church, and State) can neuer be cured but with an humble spirit, & a hart that bleedeth for the ruines of Sion, which be­cause it is a lesson, that it semeth M. Some had neuer yet any leasure to take out, we cannot looke for any great thing from those cutting sermons and writings of his, though he shoulde blaze them to vs a thousande times ouer: wel may they helpe a litle to the lapping and shreading of the tree, but to hewe it downe by the roote (because the high minded hart is commonly by [Page 56] Gods just judgment plagued with a bluntedged pen) wee neuer looke for at the handes of any such as M. Some is, til he be come of a better spirit then hitherto he hath shewed himselfe.

Nowe that you may witnesse with me that I doe him noe wrong in all this, I pray you aske him when you see him, whose sweete sentences these be. Content 66 71 your selfe I haue made no fault: The fault is in your eie, and not in your penne: if that you meane that my reasons 70 69 are faultie in the eies of the learned, you mistake the mat­ter: if my reasons were sutable to your sencelesse answers, 87 96 they were strange stuffe: I swarue not one jotte from the cause I dealt in: My answer to your obiection is very di­rect: 132 102 103 My reason was a very sure one. For the cleare proofe of this point I haue set downe sound reasons: I mislike the popish Priesthood and sacrafice asmuch as he, and if 179 147 occasion serue, wil set downe sure reasons to shake them both in peeces. Sure it is odds, your Doct. neuer looked downe on his leggs, but al one his feathers, when hee perfumed vs with this sweete powder. But howe say you, haue I done him any wrong? The places you see I haue quoted, be you your self the judge, here is nei­ther swaruing nor falting, but al sound, sure and direct therefore you may see what a treasure your vniuersi­tie hath bred vp to our Church, such a sure card as we may be bold to trust vnto, if there do chance to fall a dearth of learned men in this age. And in this glasse it was belike, that he beheld himselfe, when he told vs so confidently, That there is some reson that Gods truth should haue more defence by him, then by his aduersarie. 144 Wherein I dare say you thinke, that the life blood of his owne conceit did tickle him a little too much. In deede if he be so sure a man as he supposeth himselfe to be, there must needs be more loked for at his hands then of other poore men that are not halfe so sure: & [Page 47] it is like he speaketh this altogether in the ouerwee­ning of his owne sufficiencie, to make vs knowe what ods there is betwixt his poore aduersarie and him, o­therwise wee see no reason why the defence of Gods trueth (according to the measure of his talentes and place) should not euerie way be as deare and precious vnto another as to M. Some. I perceiue it woulde di­stemper him vnreasonably, if one should tell him that Mast. Penri hath discharged a better duetie to Gods Church in one sixe leaues, then euer M. Some did in all that euer he wrote, and yet I thinke he that should say so, might haue hands enow to subscribe to it, euen of the godliest and best affected subjects in the lande: but I purpose not to enter into that comparison, let eche man speake as his heart hath felt comfort, and God giue M. Some an humbler spirit. Only this much I thinke one may safely and truely say, that in all that euer M. Penri hath written (though M. Some haue beprouded him I know not how many times) no man shal be able justly to finde any one dashe with a pen, sauoring so palpably the corruption of the heart, tho­row the good liking of himself, as is in a hundred pla­ces of M. Somes book. Too long and loathsom it were to runne through all, and therefore I wil onely ad som few more to sute with the rest: Your feare (saith hee) that posteritie will not rest in my reasons, is a vaine fear: My arguments for baptisme by vnpreaching ministers are 94 73 such as you are not able to stir: if I haue any learning, you doe toto caelo errare. For the knowledge that God hath giuen me, I thanke his maiestie very humblye: I can re­ceiue 66 139 no disgrace by anye such as you are, &c. How saye you, is not this a medicine to giue a modest man a vo­mit? or is not this able to make a man draw his mouth to his elbowe, to heare a man professing learning, lay about him on this fashion beyond the bonds of sham­fastnes: [Page 48] Why did your D. neuer read Laus propria sor­descit in ore? Tush he is at a point you see, and goeth on like a censurer in his impious vaine, telling master Penri, That as yet he maketh very meane account of his 66 iudgement: And againe in another place to the same effect, he presseth him shrewdly: You desire pardone of 82 83 me, if you recant (saith he) you shall haue an easie sute, o­therwise I doe and will account very basely of you: Was not the man in a golden dreame thinke you, when he perswaded himselfe, that the whole poize of the mat­ter lay vpon his account? Take heed therefore my ma­sters of the fantasticall crue, if you go on your course, you see what will come of it, certainly M. Some will account very basely of you, and where be you then? I know peradventure what you will saye, that this base account of his, is but as a man stuffed with draw, that fraieth the birds but for a day or two, and afterwards they feare not to pecke on his head: And if you saye so, then comes M. Some vpon you againe, full as pow­erfully as before, and telleth you plainly, That he will speake for you, if you reuoke your errors and heresies, o­therwise 143 he will not once open his lip for you, or any suche as you are, &c. And then ye are drest, if M. Some giue you ouer once, therefore it is good to bee wise, and to looke before you leape. Thus I hope you see that your Doct. is none of these nice and shamefast diuines that in the sense and feeling of his owne good gifts, is afraid to make knowne to you what he can doe. But where abouts dwelt he trow you, or what vncurteous neighbors had he, that would thus suffer him for want of helpe, to sing all the 4. parts himselfe? Fie, fie, that an ancient D. of diuinity should be thus vsed. It is sure long of these puritanes that are dispisers of degrees of Schooles, and thereby force men to fall a praysing of themselues, whether they will or no. But in good [Page 49] earnest speake your mind, do you not thinke M. Some to be vnmatchable in this Thrasonicall veine? When you shew me the like of any learned protestant of our time, I will then yeelde my selfe faltie, and saye I did him wrong. Till then you must giue me leaue to think that he is among diuines, th' onely prince of concey­ted writers in this age: vnto al which vnbridled Rhe­torike of his, if I were as M. Penri, I wold neuer make any other answere then this, for thus it pleaseth Mast. Some to play with him. It is easie to say so, & you might worst haue said it. A partie is vnsit to be a iudge, I hope we shall not haue a P [...]thagoras of you. Would you haue 67 your boystrous speach go for an oracle, and carie all as a streame before it? It were a hard case, I trust you desire it not, if you do, you are not like to haue it: your writings are not as the lawes of the Medes and Persians. After all 92 his vanting of himselfe, if M. Penri should happen to send him this nosgaie in a letter, being as he knowes, eadem mensura, and very justly returned vpō his head (because of all men in the world, he might worst haue song vs this note in his owne praise) me thinkes this should make him looke downeward a little, and hum­ble himselfe.

Now if one should aske your D. what was the reson why in both his tretises he had such a special flying at this point, namely that the Church of England is the vi­zible Church of Christ, which I hope M. Penri wil not be so madde to gainsay, I perswade my selfe he would answere, that he discharged the shotte onely at the Brownists, and that M. Penri and his disciples must giue some other men leaue, both to make fond argu­ments & to hold dangerous opinions, aswel as themselues neuertheles, that this should not be wholly M. Somes drift, may sufficiently appeare by these glaunces that followe.

[Page 50] The marke I feare that M. penri leuels at, is simyly to condemne, th'outward calling of the Ministery of out 35 Church, & so to shake hands with th' Anabaptisticall re­cusantes. &c. Some part of his writings looke shrewdely that way.

And againe, if you meane (saith he) that the best cal­ling in our Church, is simyly corrupt, that is non at all, I 130 detest your Anabaptistical fansie. For then the worthiest diuines in this land are no Ministers. And yet more, if you doe simply condemne th'externall calling of the mi­nisters of our Churche, then in your iudgement, we haue 114 no ministery, no Sacrament, noe visitble Church in Eng­land I looked I confesse vnto you, that in the necke of this should haue followed these words, and then be­like her Maiestie, is noe visible member of the Church, for that would haue suted well with the rest of these prety ifs. And how think you now, was this great ordi­nance laid only to batter the Brownists? I am sure you do not think it: But why be al these ifs brought in, whē the man that he writes against, did not soe much aa dreame of any such matter? Forsoth because the Stae should thinke (for what should wee els conjecture,) that M. Penri is in some sort a Brownist, and then let D. Some alone with him: in like sorte, what shoulde meane al those worthy booke cases of S. Bartholmews hospital? That reading doth edisie. That the Scripture is of credit in it self: That he that doth thus, &c. is a Massa­lian heretike, & he that doth thus. &c. is a filthy Atheist &c. what should al these I say, & a number of the like meane, but only to drawe the state to thinke that M. Penri is either in part an Atheist, or in parte an here­tike, or els that he houlds the contrary to some of these principles, I pray you recommend me to your D. when you see him, and tel him from me, that there is litle diuinitie or humanitie in this, let him vse it as [Page 51] much as he wil, it wil be found as I saide, (when all is done) but a sluttish tricke of M. Bridges, liker a great deale, to begrease his fingers, then to bring any grace or credite to his penne.

And not only heerein by your leaue, hath your D. offered his poore aduersary more injury, then some thinke a man of his profession might well doe with a good conscience, but also in sundry other respects he offers him in my judgmente as foule play as I haue seene, vsed of any man professing learning in my life. And wil you to begin withal see a paterne of it? Then marke first what M. Penri setts downe to be the ques­tion, for these I take it be his owne words. The questi­on therefore is not (saith he) whether the one or th'other of them haue deliured a Sacrament in respect of th'acti­on 10 don, but whether a christian going vnto them for these holy seales, may be assured that he can receiue the same at their hands. &c. This you see is plaine enough: yet M. Some in his preface tels vs far otherwise, that the que­stion is, whether such as were and are baptized by popish priests and ignorant ministers haue & doe receiue a Sa­crament. &c. his aduersarie layeth downe in flat terms that it is not the question, and yet your D. blusheth not to say, that it is the question: were it not good then that they were both bound hand and foote till they were agreed to the Question? Nay soft you will say, that promotion wil doe better with one of them then with both, like enoughe. But is not this foule play thinke you, that M. Some wil enforce a question vpon his adueasarie whether he wil or noe, M. Penri vtter­ly rejecting it in so expresse terms calling it an odious & impertinent controuersie, and telling M. Some, that he hath therein quickned a dead controuersy, not vnlike to breede stirs through the wrangling spirits of this age. &c. And why may not he I pray you take the same li­bertie [Page 52] in this question as M. Some doth in an other or the like? For in this point, whether infants ought ra­ther to be kept vnbaptized, then to be presented to popish Baptysme, hatken I pray you to M. Somes resolution: After he hath told vs Caluins judgment, he shutteth vp the whole with this good loose: I confesse freely that this is a very waighty question, (but in this our time 181 a needelesse question, and that men of great excellencie for learning haue their seueral iudgments: and speake your conscience: If M. Penri should answere euen so to th'other question, vz. Whether that which is deliuered by popish and vnpreaching ministers, be a sacrament or no, were it any greate blasphemie; If he should chance to say in effecte as M. Some doeth, that this in our time is but a needelesse & fruitlesse question, and eccellente men haue their seueral iudgments, were it not pitty to make him an anabaptist, a catabaptist, or a Pelagian for this.

O but you will say, that though M. Penri do denie it to be the question, yet of consequence it must needs be the question whether he will or no: for if the po­pishe and dumbe ministers haue no ministerie at all, then that which either they haue deliuered, or do de­liuer can be no sacrament, and so her majestie and a number of excellent men mo, must be vnbaptized at this day. This beleeue me is a shrewd blowe, and may well be called a Silogisme in Bocardo, and yet if her majesties name were left out, it might peraduenture bee avoided with more ease: But I praye you what thinke you of the second point of M. Somes first trea­tize, That a godly prince may not suffer any religion but the true religion, either publikely or priuatly in his domi­nions, is not that a sound point agreable to the word? I am sure you wil not denie it, and yet by that which I haue learned of M. Some I can teach you a Cambridg [Page 53] tricke to overthrowe it: namely thus, Her Maiesty all Christendome knowes to be a godly Prince, and in that regard, through the great mercy of God fewe princes vn­der the Heauen to be compared vnto her, yet hath shee neuertheles suffered the Ambassadors of sorrain nations to haue their Masse, (which shee must needs knowe to be Idolatrie) within her dominions. Therefore either that proposition of M. Somes is false, or els he must be for­ced to yeeld that her maiestie is in that regard vngod­ly: And if he doe so, then I haue him where I woulde haue him, & marke I pray you, how I can fetch him a­bout for neede with a proper short declamation (but truly it is a sweet on) of the lerned Bridges, Secundum ordine Sarum in this maner: Yea my learned masters are ye good at that? Is the winde in that dore? Are ye come after so many miraculous blessings, and such an extraordi­narie hand of God vpon her maiestie, after all that great care and indeuour she hath had to aduance the Gospell, and to succor th'afflicted members thereof, (So many thousand of christian soules hauing bin saued vnder her gouernment) are ye become I say, nowe after all this, o­penly to charge & accuse her of vngodlinesse? I knowe brethren, that the best Princes vnder the Heauen, haue their seuerall infirmities: But openly to tollerate so grosse & greuous a sinne against the honor of God, and the light of his trueth, this is more brethren then may well be sha­dowed by infirmitie: Therefore what shal I say? With griefe I speake it and yet I must needs speake it, O wick­ed & vngrateful wretches to their dreade soueraigne the Queenes highnes, that thus bash not to require her with repining and slaunders: Fie, Fie Bretheren, beware, what you write an other time, aske pardon of her Maiestie, for she is merciful and most godly: whome ye haue thus open­ly slaundered to be vngodly: Therefore away with that false proposition and burne the record for shame. For you [Page 54] see plainly that a godly Prince may suffer some other re­ligion beside the true religion, within her Dominions: howe say you now? Haue I not acquited my selfe wor­thily in confuting M. Some? For I trowe he will be better aduised, then openly to accuse her Maiestie of vngodlinesse.

And euen thus for al the world, and no better then thus doth it seeme to me, that M. Some and his assist­ance doe consute the Nullitie of our dumbe ministers: For they haue not in the world any other arguments to fright vs with, but only that of her Maiestie, her Maiestie, which they thinke to be a byter: And it puts me in minde of a litle pretty story, that we haue of a scholler of Oxford, and a Clumperton of the Cuntry: The scholler hauing got a litle smattering of Lodge­icke, would needs threat downe the poore man that he could by Lodgicke prooue any thing against him: Namely, though he had a cudgel in his hand, yet he would prooue he had non: whereunto the Country man made answere, by my faieth if you doe so, Ile make your shoul­ders feele that I haue one: By the way, you must not thinke that this Country man was a B. for all he be­gan with his Fayth, for I would you should knowe it, there be others that can sweare besides Bb. But thus you see the poore schollers logicke was somthing too weake to serue him against a cudgell. Euen so now, if one chance to denie popish ministers to be ministers: Is it not a good round ready way to refute them thus: Ile make you feel they be ministers? For what els should this fearfull thunderclap of M. Somes meane? You dare not for your eares say in flat tearmes, that it was no bap­tism 172 which was beretosore deliuered in the popish Church &c. Yet for all this daring, D. Fulke against Stapleton, hath dared to write thus much: vnlearned priests (saith he) were forbidden to serue in the church, Bed. lib. 1. cap [Page 55] 6. In so much that S. Iohn of Beuerley baptized againe a Pag. 21 yong man, which was baptized of an vnlearned priest. Yea and because it seemeth he feared no daring of anye man that should com after, he hath recorded it twice vnto vs in lesse then 6. leaues: For in the 11. page go­ing before, he setts it downe more at large to this ef­fect: That this Iohn of Beuerley told the yong man, that doubtles he was not well baptized, if that dulheaded dog­bolt 11 priest baptized him: And therefore after he had de­priued that ignorant wretch of his ministry, he caused the yong man to be baptized a new, as not rightly baptized be­fore, &c. Thus much D. Fulke: and I hope for all this daring, he will not reuoke it in hast, for what need he, when his book is seene and allowed? And that which is alowed by our state to confute a papist, I do not see but it hath the very same vigor and efficacie against M. Some or anye man els that jumpeth with them in judgement. And therefore if a man shoulde venter to say: That an ignorant popish priest cannot truly baptize, so long as such a speeche hath the warrant and allow­ance of our Church and state, what neede he feare the threat of his eares? In deede this daring of your Do­ctors, (when I consider of it well) me thinkes it looks like a good well fauored cudgell: And if you can tell me what figure it is in, Ile put you out of doubt what Moode it is in, so you and I betwixt vs, shall I hope, finde out the Moode and Figure, whence this sting­ging syllogisme is drawne. But I muze whether euer M. Some knew D. Bourcot or no, if he did not, let him learne one of his receiptes of me for the lengthening of his life: Thou'fret and kill thy selfe, be patient, be pa­tient. Intreat your D. the next time you see him, to fa­uor himself that way more then he doth, for sure these arguments that are drawne from the passionat Mood, and the threatning Figure, do nothing so well with a [Page 56] man of his constitution, as to be continually resident vpon his charge: And if he looke not to it, I can tell him this choller and freting of his, with an ambitious desire to rise, will goe neere in time to be the shorte­ning of his dayes. Alas how should the poore igno­rant Welshman, or any of the santasticall crue, be able to aunswere suche an vnmercifull syllogisme as this? You dare not for your cares say, &c. Th'onely way that I see is to couch vnder the board, and keepe close for the time, till that same perillous pillorie, whiche so frighteth and threatneth men with their cares be shif­ted or remooued out of his place. In deed it is not vn­like that some of their wretched and fawning solici­ters, doe but too often warble vpon that string in her Majesties cares, thereby to make way to the rest of their odious and malicious complaints: And me think I should see some reuerent B. or other one his knees before her maiestie as one loath to speake good man, but only that the heinousnes of the case doth there­vnto force him, as it were against his wil, and therfore he begins I warrant you with a sigh or 2. fetched from the very depth of his bowels in this sort: O Madame, you may see nowe what your puritans are come to: As men alwaies rising from one error to another, & neuer at rest they are nowe growen to this, that your Maiestie is not christned, are you not greately beholden to them? By this your highnes may measure the fruite of the rest of their desires: Therefore you may yeeld to their newe platforme if you please, but I feare Madame, (my hart trembleth to speake it) you shal not enioy many good daies after: Sure if wee may knowe of any such venemous complainte to her maiestie, we wil fly to M. Some to prooue them liers all, for he hath set downe in print, that M. Penri is in the case of H. N. that is in manner a lone in this judgment of the Nulltie, and therefore if they vse vs [Page 57] thus, to make a number of vs, when the sault (if it be a falt) lieth but in one alone, though wee dare not tell them, yet we will get M. Some to tell them, that by their leaue they lye, and they lye loudely toe.

But for the point wherein M. Some thinks he hath his aduersarie on the hippe, first wee say for the clea­ring of our selues, and we speak it even in singlenesse of heart, (be thou O God witnesse and reuenge if we lie) that we doe account her maiestie the deare childe of God, so marked from her Cradle, and so chosen from the very foundations of th'earth, whereof wee doubt not but shee hath had assured seales and testi­monies to her owne soule, not only by her outwarde and miraculous desiuerances, but by an inwarde sense and seeling of Gods mercies, she hath bene from her infancie through Gods greate mercie deliuered from the dregs of popery, & thereby from one of the gates that leadeth vnto hell: She hath since that time made noe doubt, some fruteful increase in the knowledge of the truth: She hath bin kept from those soule and enormious sinns, which other great States & princes haue fallen into: She hath not feared to professe and publikely to a vowe the cause, notwithstandinge the frowning threats, and practises of many other migh­tie potentates round about her: yea though her blood haue bene many wayes vnjustly sought for, and onely for the gospell sake, yet hath shee not for any suche earthly respect abandoned the cause, but hath boldly from time to time, euen with joye of heart succoured the afflicted, both at home and abroad, yea and more, it is manifest that vnder that happy and peaceable so­veraigntie of hers, many a thousand haue come to the sound knowledge of the trueth, which were before in palpable darknes. And these be to vs ward, sussicient reasons & motions to put vs out of doubt, that (what­soeuer [Page 58] other wants, weaknesses & infirmities she may haue incident to flesh and blood) yet that shee is the deare childe of God and right precious in his eyes: & if that be so, then I hope I shall not need to stand loug about any pretie catechisme (as M. Some hath done a­bout the inabillitie of the regenerate) to proue That whom God loueth, he loueth for euer: for I do assure my self, meaner mé thé M. Some are resolued in that. Wel that then being set down for granted, That whom God loueth he loueth sor euer, and that it is vnpossible for al the power of hell and darknes, to wipe her Majestie out of the booke of life, wherein she is written: let vs com to that wound that M. Some and others do think to be so vncurable, namely, That her Maiestie should be vnbaptized.

First though it be very cleare, that M. Penri doth not say so, altogether disclaiming the point, as an odi­ous and fruitlesse controuersie, yet because M. Some wil stil be hagling at that biting consequent, as a man halfe starued and hungerbit for want of other suste­nance, let vs alowe for once that M. Penri did say soe in deede: what then? What wil your learned D. assume vppon that: I trust if it were granted him for a maior, a man might soone ghesse what woulde be his minor, namely this, I am perswaded if you be not wel coniured by the magistrate, you wil proue a strange body, and then what should be the conclusion, but Hue & Crie? So that if the cutlers shoppe doe not better befriende your D. in this case then th'vniuersity, he is at a stand But let vs presuppose that her maiestie were vnbapti­sed, (though I knowe of none that say so) yet so long as shee hath the inwarde baptisme, that is so long as shee is baptized of the holy Ghost and with fier, ha­uing joyfully embraced the holy faith of the sonne of God, and withall hauing the seale and assurance of [Page 59] that which shal neuer be taken from her, that is of re­mission of sinns in the death & righteousnes of Christ and that more is, hauing also many times bin comfor­tably fedde and refreshed at the Lords table by those holy seals of her redemption, as a farther pledg of the fauour and mercy of God, I see no reason, nor I know no vse, why after all this, that she should be brought backe againe to the sacrament of her entrance and in­grasting into the body, if it were so that she were not baptized, if there be any other mistery in the matter, I franckly confesse it is more then I see as yet. As for that ineuitable and remedilesse necessitie of the Sa­crament, which the bewitched papists doe so sottish­ly dreame of, I hope al the children of God haue long a goe turned that strange beast a grazing, as hauing bin safficiently taught: That it is not the want of the sa­crament, but the contempt and neglect of the sacrament that is damnable: Nowe her maiestie being already perswaded in her hart that shee is baptized, cannot thereby justly be said either to contemne or neglect the sacrament, because she resteth in that perswasion, howsoeuer it be, whether she be baptized or no, (be ing cleare from these 2. sinns of contempt and neglect) we are assured it shall noe kinde of waie redound to her hart, because shee is the childe of God, and wee doubte not but shee findeth and feeleth daylie those inward comforts and tokens of Gods loue towardes her, as neither the adding or iterating of th'outward sacrament can by any meanes better or increase. And if that be so, then doe I not see why M. Penri or any man els should so greatly feare that blody consequent of M. Somes, vz. If popishe ministers, be no ministers, then her Maiestie is not christened. For you see when this bugbeare is vnuizarded once, then alas it hath but the face of a sheepe as it were, and his visnomy ap­peares [Page 60] nothing so terrible as it semed before.

O but you wil aske me peraduenture what I say to this: None vnbaptized may be admitted to the holy sup­per: I answere, that it is most true in a sorte with M. 92 Somes distinction, vz. which are knowne to be vnbapti­zed, for those be his very words: In deede if the case be so cleared, without al question and contradiction, that both the minister & the man himselfe that is to com­municate, doth assuredly know himselfe to pe vnbap­tized, then I dare not denie but there is a salt both in the minister that admitteth, and in the person that so presenteth himselfe. But one th'other side, where the man verely perswadeth him selfe that he is baptized, and the minister hath no knowledge of the contrary, (though reuera and in truth, there were noe baptisme at all) then the question is howe these doe sinne, for this I take it cannot be that sinfull ignorance that M. Some mentioneth in these wordes, ignorantia excusat non a toto sed a tanto. And I hope he will not denie 90 that it is a sacrament, and may be a comfortable sacra­ment to him that in this perswasion doth present him­selfe at the Lords table, though in truth he had not the outward seale of baptisme besore. For where the Apostle biddeth a man to examine himselfe. &c. I sup­pose it is not to be vnderstood as is he would say thus: I charge thee that among other things thou search and enquire diligintly what was done to thee, 50. 90. yeares a­goe, when thou wast an infant, whether that were true baptisme that thou diddest then receue, and whether that person that did then baptise thee, had a callinge or no: And is thou canst by no meanes bolt out the truth thereof to assure thy hart that thou wast baptised in deed then I charge thee keepe thy selfe from the holy commu­nion, I take it I say this was noe parte of th'Apostles 92 meaning, and M. Somes owne words doe seeme in a [Page 61] sort to crosse it: This examination (saith he) consisteth in saith and repentance, which are not in them, that ei­ther 92 weetingly omit, or wilfully contemne the holy Sacra­ment of baptisme: So that M. Some himselfe restraining it only to one of these 2. omission of knowledge, or con­tempt of wilfulnesse, we thinke we may safely say that where these 2. be not, there the man, (whether he be baptised or noe) may be a worthy and fruitful recey­uer. And in this case it semeth that a mans owne very hart and conscience may be a notable light and direc­tion to him, against all the wrangling spirits in the world. For if in communicating at the Lords table, thou didst euer in thy life feele any growth in thy self with a desier to rise from the wretchednesse of the first Adam, to the righteousnes of the second Adam, if I say thou didst euer feele any inward sweetenesse and comfort in thy gratious God to a thorough peace of thy conscience, and a quieting of thy soule, then assure thy selfe (against all that man or Angell can bringe against it) that where thou hast bene once so banketed, there thou hast thy warrant from the holy Ghost without scruple to goe seast againe, and that either thou art baptized, or els that certainly thou hast noe neede of it. For as wee say to the papists tou­ching there traditions, that seeing we haue life euer­lasting which is all in al by the worde written, let them drawe vs neuer so many embo slements, and tel vs ne­uer so many miracles of their traditions, we valewe them al as olde conceiled records, wherein there is neither strength nor power, and the reason is, because we haue sufficient without them: Euen so in this case, so long as wee are assured of the principal, I meane that excellent frute of a justif [...]ing faith, which is a per­petual peace of conscience in the sonne of God, if any man shal thé take in hand to bring vs into a quandare [Page 62] or perplexitie about our christening as they cal it, we neede not greatly feare what he can say therein, be­cause wee are at peace with God, and therefore if he tel vs neuer so much, That the popish priests must needs haue a calling, otherwise we cannot be baptized, & if wee be not baptised, then wee must keepe our selues from the communion, and so consequently be depriued of the holy seales of our redemption, vnlesse we will acknowledge po­pish Idolators to haue a calling. &c. Because these and such like, haue neither sappe nor edg, neither life nor quickening in them, nor can no whit better our estate touching our peace of conscience (our own very harts by the comforts that we haue already receued, being able infinitely to controle them) who can blame vs, if so long as we are cleare from all contempt, and neg­lect of the holy sacraments, we hange all these by a­mong other our canceled records, as a needles & frut­lesse jangling to no vse?

But in the meane season, what say you to him that dare be so sawcie to controlle a whole Churche and state? may not that man for once sute with proud Pen­rie, or any of the fantasticall crue? I woulde be sorie that M. Some should be taken in such a tripp, but if he be, I must needs saye it is Gods just judgement vpon him, because he doth so embitter his pen against his poore aduersarie, laying pride and blasphemie to his charge, I know not how often. Which when I looke vpon, me thinks I shoulde heare Eliab speaking in his high voice to his yonger brother David, in this or the like manner: I know thy pride and mallice of thy heart, &c. Wel let M. Penri look to that himselfe, he knows how grieuously God hath visited that sinne in others, and therefore at his perill be it. But to make it appear to you, that your D. in this his hott and eger desire to strike M. Penri on the legs, hath not seared withall to [Page 63] gash our whole Church and state in the face, let that last Cannon of his (which I spake of before) vz. That non vnbaptized must be admitted to the supper, be cōpa­red with the practize of our Church, and then tel me your judgement: For if it be cleare, that of all those that are and haue bene baptized by women (which of all the learned, excepting onely the papists, is confes­sed to be no baptisme at all) our Church doth neither rebaptize any, nor yet in that regard, repell them frō the supper: whom thē I pray you doth M. Some more crosse and controll in this case, then our very Church and state it selfe, whose doctrine & practise is flat con­trary to this maxima and rule of his? And that you may see into what distresse your doctor hath brought himselfe by this meanes: marke howe syllogisticasly I can come vpon him for need, and yet you know my A­tithmaticke hath bene as good as my Logicke in my dayes.

1 The Churche of England maintaineth nothing in her doctrine or regiment, whereof she cannot rea­der a sounde reason and a sufficient proofe from the foundation of Gods word, to maintain it with a good conscience:

2 But the Churche of England alloweth of those (whom she knoweth & confesseth to be vnbaptized) to come ordinarily to the Lords table.

3 Ergo, it is agreeable to Gods word and to con­science, and so falleth to the grounde that assertion of M. Somes, vz. That none vnbaptized must be admitted to the supper.

How say you now? haue not I cut the throat of this geare? if you vrge me now to proue my maior, I know I shall no sooner name the man vnto you from whom I had it, but you will put of your cappe straight, and I presume so much of his curtesie, that if you and I had [Page 64] him in a corner to spurre him the question, he woulde answere vs as he doth elsewhere full sweetly, Forsooth brethren that did even I: for it is the kindest gentle­man if you were acquainted with him that euer: well I will not say now what I know, but if you will needs haue my maior prooued, doe but turne I praye you to the 5. page of the learned preface of that greeke Lexi­con in 40. which was printed by Charde, to his cost I feare, I befoole his fingers that was the cause of it: if you aske mee what time it was published, though I should misse of the moneth, yet me thinkes I shoulde not misse much of the yere, because it came forth just at the same time that many proper fooleries came out without priuiledge: Euen there I say, and in the very same page shall you finde my maior, prooued suffici­ently, and I hope M. Some will not be so hard hearted to denie th'authoritie of M. Bridges, for then there is no deiling with him. My minor you see is manifest by the daily practise of our Church, in admitting such to the Lords table, as haue none other baptism then that of women, and that I am sure M. Some will confesse to be none: Neither is there, nor neuer was since her ma­jesties raigne, anye tryall or examination had of the matter, nor any article, injunction, or commandement so to enquire, no nor any Homily, or other private or publike admonition that euer I heard of, to charge men to examine themselues in that point, whether they haue true baptism or no, but as if it were a thing nothing materiall, they are (as wee see) without fur­ther scruple receiued to the Lords table in peace. And the like is of those that are our ministers & preachers of the gospell, as well Bb. as others. For among al the Bb. articles, and vrgings to subscription, was there e­ver any stay made I pray you, in the admission of any to that publike function of the ministerie onely vpon [Page 65] that point, whether they were baptized by women or no? I thinke not, and yet it may be that manye of them haue had none other baptisme then that: O but you will saye that was not knowne, and at the time of their admission, it was supposed they were sufficiently baptized: But I say againe, if the matter be so mate­riall, as M. Some would haue it, that ought especially to haue bene knowne, and no hande giuen to their al­lowance, before it had bene perfectly knowne. And if we should stay till then, I thinke it would go neere to craze the license of some of the graundfathers, and make a foule scoure amongest th'oldest of our prea­chers: And so peraduenture, father Iohn Elmar should kisse Cate no more in the pulpit while he liued, and what a shrewd losse were that? Well I conclude ther­fore, sithence The Churche of England maintaineth no­thing in doctrine or regiment, but she may well do with a good conscience, as from the foundation of godsword (For I tell you, wee poore parishioners hang much on that maior of M. Bridges his) and that all this while she ne­uer called this matter in question, but admitteth both to the Communion, and to the publik teaching in the Church, such as haue bin onely baptized by women, and neuer stoppeth nor stayeth at it, nor maketh any enquirie after it. I conclude I say (for so it must needs fall out) that M. Some was greatly ouerseene, thus in a kinde of singularitie to controlle his betters without cause: What? I beleeue we shall haue one of these pu­ritanes of him shortly, for they are alwayes taking ex­ceptions to something or other in Churche or state. No more of that I woulde advise him if hee loue his health or his wealth either, for those fellowes be so elvish, that they had rather begge then haue two be­nefices.

Now for farther confirmation and authorising of [Page 66] this practise of our Church, because M. Some seemeth to carrie so reverent a minde to his superiors, that he will submit himselfe and all his writings to their cen­sure, I will here, to cut of al cauils, set down the judg­ment of one of the grauest Prelates of the land, con­cerning that point of womens baptisme: For these (as I am informed) are my L. of Winchesters owne words with his graue preamble and all, and I thinke himselfe will not denie them.

Although I be perswaded that the most obiestions made by some persons against the booke of commen prayer are in trueth of no waight, but rather captious & vnpro­fitable as concerning the Church of England, in publike prayer and the vse of the Sacraments to maintaine those things that be directly against the worde of God, yet for the quieting & better directing of some moderate minds which by occasion haue bin drawn into some scruple about these things, I haue layed downe mine opinion about the true interpretation of the same in this wise: First as tou­ching the baptisme by Midwiues, I can assure you that the Church of England, or any that I knowe in place of gouer­ment therein, doth not maintaine either the baptisme of midwiues as a thing tollerable in the Church, or else the condemnation of those children that depart this worlde vnbaptized, but doth accounte them both eronius & not according to the word of God. For in the Conuocation the matter was debated amongst vs wherin some of those per­sons were present, to whome the drawing of the booke was committed, whoe protested that neither the order of the booke did alowe any such thing, neither that it was any part of their meaning to approue the same: But for soe much as baptizing by women, hath bin a sore time com­monly vsed and nowe also of rashnesse by some is done, the booke only taketh order & prouideth, that if the childe be baptized by the midwife rebaptizing be not admitted. [Page 67] For when it is done according to the forme of the questi­ons set downe in the booke, if it shoulde be condemned as My Lord of vvinchesters judgement touching those that are baptized by Mid­vviues. no baptisme, it would in th'opinion of many learned draw some error of doctrine, and inferre greater inconuenience then in any Church may be borne, that is an infinite num­ber which neuer had other baptisme, should nowe be re­baptized, and all those of yeares of discretion that were dead and were onely so baptised, depart without the seale of Gods promise in the Sacrament. The learned doe right wel knowe, how the primitiue Church and the learned fa­thers that liued therein, shunned rebaptization, though the former baptisme were ministred either by lay persons or children: Therefore the booke prouiding only for the remedy thereof ought not to be condemned. Thus far my good L. of Winchester: The summe whereof is this: That the booke of common praier condemneth the baptis­me of midwiues, and yet admitteth no other baptisme for feare of rebaptization: And why then should her Ma­iestie be brought back againe to baptisme, when such as in our owne judgments, were neuer baptized in deede, are notwithstanding let alone, without any farther addition, or supply of the sacrament, and yet (as I saide before) not barred from the communion for all that?

Therefore presuppose nowe a man should tell M. Some plainly, that in the popish Church there is noe true baptisme, what would he inferre vpon that? mar­ry that many thousands are at this day vnbaptised, & what then? Whie then they ought to be brought back againe to baptisme: Nay soft, by his fauor I deny that, for that you see is flatly ouerthrown by the judgment and practise of the Church of England, and therefore it becommeth both M. Some and me, to sit downe by it with reuerence. So that if my L. of Cant. shoulde nowe be baptized by a woman, (as being so long agoe [Page 68] who dare take his oath to the contary; And my L. of Winchester by a popish shaueling, what reason is it that my L. of Winchester should be washed a newe, seeing it is a ruled case that my L. of Cant. must not? And yet it may be for the true substance of Baptisme, they may well goe together in one ballance, and ne­uer a barrel better hearring.

But it may be you will altogether condemne this poore judgment of the Bishops, as manifestly bewrai­ing very grosse & palpable ignorance, wherin though I should not dissent from you, yet in as much as he is in place of on of the graue Patriarches of our church, there is noe reason, but that his very credite & coun­tenance (if there were nothing els) should in this case be sufficient to crushe in peeces a better mans judge­ment then M. Somes: Beside that he is one of our or­dinaries you knowe, and the statute saieth (as I take it) that in matter of doubt or scruple, we must alwaies relie vpon the sence and interpretation of our ordina­ry, howsoeuer it be, I hope you wil beare me witnesse, that by this meanes both my propositions are as sub­stantially proued as a man would wish, the deane of Sarum being author of th'one, and my L. of Winche­ster in a sort confirming th'other. And this I tell you before hand, (therefore looke to it and say you had warning) that if I catche M. Some once in that veine, that he wil make no boanes to reiect, and set light by such men as these, (th'one a deane, th'other a Bishop and both pillers of our Church) I will certainly in my next letter giue M. Penri leaue to deny Caluin, if he haue but the bare trueth on his side, and you cannot say nowe, but you haue had warning, wherein yet by your fauor, your D. case must needs be the harder, in that he cannot wel denie any of these reuerent men, but he must withal be forced inclusiue to giue a foule [Page 69] checke to our Church and State: Which rather then Gosser Bridges would doe: I knowe him so well, that I presume he would rather in reuerence denie S. Paul or any of the 12. Apostles: and what a sound harted subiect is that? In deede I must needs say thus much for him, (if he would wish me in my graue) that when he doth confute S. Paul, he doeth it lightly with as much reuerence as ever I heard or read of in my life. wel here againe is offered me occasion, to borrowe an other peece of copia rimarum out of M. Deane of Salisburies buttery booke, and to come vpon M. Some once more with a dutch figure or two, in this extra­uagant manner: Yea my learned brother, are you good at that? Is the winde in that doore? Are you nowe come to that height of conceite in your selfe, as not to feare o­penly to controle a whol Church or state? Fye, Fye, brother either vnsay that again, or farewell all brotherhood. &c. But I wil not blot any more paper, with such ware as this, there is enough of it to be had in the west Coun­try, if a man could light on it, only you may imagine, if M. Penri should haue thus crossed and encountered the doings of our Church and State, what a heauie sentence should haue passed vpon him, then I warrant you the streets would haue rong, of that Proude scis­matical Anabaptist, which had so troubled heuen, church, & common wealth. &c. And thus you see the ginnes that are so purposely set for an other, may somtimes ensnare the fouler himselfe.

As to that greate scule rolle of errors and absurdi­ties charged with such an imperiall Maiestie vppon the poore Welch mans head, I knowe [...] well what to say, only if I had bene of Councel withal at the be­ginning, th'enrollement shoulde haue bene made in parchment and not in paper: For nowe being but bare paper, see the ill luck of it, the Mice haue so mangled [Page 70] the record, that the absurdities were neuer worth tal­king of since, therefore the onely shift for your D. is, to get them passe by parliament if he can, for other­wise to take them to be such vppon his bare worde, he must pardon vs for that, for if he were Archb. of Cant. I tel you, we would be loath to take his worde in this case, we heare in deed many times a great noise and a rusteling, and we see before vs as it were a swel­ling sea of big words, telling vs many wonders of cer­taine strange blasphemies, absurdities, and I knowe not what: but when we come to examine them by the touchston, and look to be satisfied by some plaine de­monstration or silogistical profe, then beholde in liew of this, there appeares before vs a man new come out of the cloudes (as it were) with his mace in his hand, and his sandalles on his feet (as it should seme) rather to make lawes then to handle controuersies, pointing with his finger, at this and at that, telling vs what he thinks, as if al the world were to gape vpon him: For what els should all these pretty flowers meane, wher­in for the most parte lieth the wholle power of your D. booke; I am not of your judgment: This is a grosse er­ror: Herein I dissent from you: This is a blasphemous ab­surditie: My arguments are such as you are not able to stirre: This is a most absurde heresie: I detest your Ana­baptistical fansie. &c. with a number of the like where­of you haue seene the recorde already, yea and some­times he refers vs we thanke him, very friendly to his chapter bidding vs reade his answere, which when we come to vewe, either it serueth vs for a pretty dictio­nary to Caluius institutions, or els wee are just as wise as we were before: For this you shal finde to be true (if you vewe it attentiuely) that he hath for the most parte as much substance in his very table of direction as he hath in the whole chapter whereunto wee are [Page 71] directed, and peraduenture more toe, by the reason of some distemperature that makes him forget himself, yea and for our better satisfaction, he tels vs and that very often, that he doth rest in that which he hath writ­ten, dreaming belike, that because himselfe hath some good liking of his own Image, therefore others must needs haue so to. But howe if this test be a broken rest? or howe if D. Bridges and D. Bancroft should also tel vs, that they likewise for their parts, do rest in that which they haue written? Yet M. Some knowes that hee 183 must needs be a very restie Iade, that for all this rest­ing of theirs, would rest or relie vpon any such frippe­rie ware as they haue cumbred the Church with. But is it not a shrewd wipe to feareful and ignorant men, when a man of that aunciencie as M. Some is, shall reach at vs with a weapon drawn from the experience of his owne learning and judgment? in this manner: If I haue any learning, you doe toto caelo errare: It is something I confes, and yet if our brother Bridges had 73 so come vppon vs, we should haue done well enough with him, we could quickly haue added this Minor to his Maior: But Heuen and earth knoweth brother Brid­ges, that you haue no learning, & are but a sol▪ ergo, mary to M. Some the case goeth harder with vs, and there­fore he that woulde nowe be resolued in the point, whether dumbe ministers be ministers or no, neede noe more but ride to Cambridge, to know whether M. Some be learned, & if he finde him to be so, then to make no question but that they be ministers in deed, quod sub­stantiam but not quoad qualitatem. Neuerthelesse be­cause learned men haue their slipps somtimes, and are not so priuiledged, but that in their heate or height of spirit, they may nowe and then let fall absurdities as wel as others, therefore we are in noe greate feare of this neither, the rather because your D. leaueth [Page 72] vs certain pretty outrules (I dare not say absurdities) vncanceled of purpose as I thinke, to try whether his aduersarie be spu [...]blinde or noe: For what els shoulde this meane? If you denie not that it is a Sacrament you affirme it: For not to denie is to affirme: Every childe (saith M. D.) can teach you that lesson: And I promise you then it is a proper lesson, but if a childe can so re­dily 140 teach it, I trust an elder man may as readily learn it. See then what a wit I haue, that can at the first dash vpon the sight of one bare paterne, thwite you out an other straight, full as good as that: M. Some denies not that I am a bastard, Ergo he affirmes it. For not to denie is to affirme. Euery childe can teache him that. Ye howe nowe? What occasion did I giue M. Some to call me bastard? Trust me if he vse me so, ile haue an action of the case against him: For I would he should knowe it, my mother is an honest gentlewoman, & nobly borne: And thus you see, of words may grow blowes. Wel for al that, if I wist your D. were in good earnest, I would certainly get M. Penri to wright on his head as an ab­surditie, and a childish absurditie to by his leaue, with out either reson or sense: for what cōsequēce is there I pray you in these, M. Some denies not that his brother Bridges is a patch, Ergo he affirmes it: M. Some denies not that the calling of an Archb. is vnlawfull, Ergo he affirmes it: For not to denie is to affirme? He that had a good commission to reason thus at his pleasure, might peradventure mooue your D. patience vnrea­sonably, and make the couler come in his face: For so a man might be convinced to affirm a thousand things that he neuer so much as dreamed of, because it can­not be prooued that euer he denied them.

O but you will saye peraduenture, that M. Some meanes this onely of those thinges that are in questi­on and debate, and not of euery thing at randome: As [Page 73] if there be a controuersy about Predestination, he that in handling of this denies it not, may truely in a sort, be said to affirme it: And so now the controuersie be­ing about the Sacrament from popish priests, and M. Penri not denying it, may truely in like sort be said to affirm it. And then by that reckoning there is no dou­ting of any thing. For if a man doubt of a thing, and denie it not, he affirmes it straight. And is this trowe you th'evidence that M. Some will plead for himselfe in this case? Now sure then hath he firmed faire: And what may the good Deane of Sarum saye to this, but that he was borne in an vnfortunate houre, to be by this proper distinction manifestly convinced as a trai­tor, euen by the mouth of my L. of Winchester him­selfe, if it were he that fumbled vs vp that sodden Ad­monition to the people of England? For Martin (whom he cals the libeller) chargeth D. Bridges with flat trea­son, and I take it, he names both the place & the page: Now comes father Admonitor, and he worthely de­fends, but what? marie forsoth, for want of other mat­ter. That ministers liuings should not be takē from them, and be employed he knowes not howe. But the principall thing in controversie, namely the treason charged so justly vpon D. Bridges his head, he had no leisure to peruse, though he could finde leisure to speake of him twice or thrice and that purposely in his praise. The issue therefore is, that seeing the thing was in contro­versie, yea and the principall and most materiall thing of all the controuersie: and my L. of Winchester ha­uing the matter in hand, doth not nor dare not (it see­meth) denie it. Then out of M. Somes Logicke or di­uinitie (chuse you whether) I conclude vn [...]oydablie, that he must needs affirme it: For not to denie, is to af­firme, Euery childe can teach him that. Ergo M. Bridges (I am sory for him good soule) must needes be a tray­tor [Page 74] by my L. of Winchesters verdict. And I woulde I might liue to see him, eyther to fall out with M. Some for this kinde of reasoning, or els to trie his action of the case against the Bishop.

Likewise where M. Penri sayth, that those that re­ceiue the Cōmunion at the hands of dumb & vnprea­ching ministers, doe in a sort approue their sinne. will you see how pretily your D. refutes it with an inflance of Iudas in this sort. The Apostles (saith he) receiued the Lordes supper with Iudas, but did not approoue the 120 theft and treason of Iudas, &c. How say you? would you not think he were in jest? & speak your cōscience, was not this right from the corner of the staffe and to very good purpose, the controversie being of recey­uing the Sacraments at the hands of dumb ministers? Why alasse, we suppose that Christe our Sauiour was no dumb minister, at whose hands the Apostles recei­ued it: What haue we then to doe with Iudas in this case, vnlesse he had bene minister of it? In deed if the question had bene Whether one may without pollution, communicate in the companie of the wicked, then this example of Iudas, had bin a just laste for that foote: the speech being of the minister that shoulde deliuer it, we may truely vse M. Somes owne wordes against himselfe, and tell him by his patience, that it was euen as neere as Yorke and London.

An other of his pretty outrules is this: It is consess­ed (saith he) of all famous and learned men, that Gods Church is not necessarily tied in al places & times to one sorme in th'external calling of the ministers, wherein I con him thanke yet, that he hath learned so much dis­cretion as to name non though he speake of all. And therefore if a man should giue them al the lye, it were not a point matter, for the disgrace can light one noe man where noe man is named. But for the matter it [Page 75] selfe (if he speake it of an established church, we feare not to tel him that th'assertion is manifestly false and vnttue, we graunt in deede that at the first plantinge of a Church, when men are newly transformed (as it were) from paganisme to christianitie the Lord wor­keth extraordinarily, & that in those cases there can­not wel be traced out any certaine prescript rules of direction: But in a settled and established Church it is far otherwise: There we say that the Church is ne­cessarily tied in al places to one essential forme in the external calling of the ministers: I say essential forme, to cut of al cauels and wranglings about any circum­stance or ceremontal custome: As if in one Church the calling and election should goe by lifting vp the hand. In an other by throwing vp of capps, in an other by Scrutiny or voices, in an other by one custome, in an other by an other: This seueral guise and fashion of seueral Churches in their elections hindreth noe whit, but that the essential forme remaineth still one, and the same in them al. And if you aske me what that essential forme should be, I answere, The godly and christian fore deliberation, trial, and allowance of the Church & elders, with the assent and approbation of the people: This I say is that essential forme, whereunto al churches in al ages (speking of an established church) are so necessarilie tied in regarde of Gods ordinance, as it is vtterly vnlawfull by any meanes to violate or infringe the same. And this we suppose a meaner man then M. Penri neede not be afraide to defend against 10. D. Somes, or any nonresident in Christendome, ne­ther can we be perswaded that among al those famous learned men he speaks of, there was euer any godlye sinceare professor of the Gospel that did denie it: And even much after this manner, and ful as learnedly as this doth he handle himselfe within 2. pages of the [Page 76] same place, where after he hath gathered his aduer­saries argument thus. All may be capable of the out­warde allowaunce: Ergo. th'outwarde calling of the Church maks not a minister to vs vnlesse he haue the in­warde, he tels him that his Antecedent is a speciall one. And what is his reason? Marke I pray you, and giue care for your learning, and then tell me whether an olde D. may not forgett as fast in London, as euer he learned in Cambridge: I trust (saith he) you doe not condemne a prescript Liturgie in the Church of God. If you doe al the reformed Churches dissent from you. Howe thinke you was not his head smitten with a Lethargie that spied nowe a time to speake of a Liturgie, when in a manner he had as just occasion to speake of the Moone. In like sort it is worth marking, what a pro­per construction he makes of this worde Ministerie, By Ministerie (saith he) I vnderstand the reading of the holy scriptures, the deliuering of the publike prayers, th'administration of the sacraments: That is even as much to say in good english, as by the horse I vnder­stand the saddle, or rather by the tree, I vnderstande the apple of the tree, or by Ministerie I vnderstande that which is not indeede the Ministerie, but the execu­tion of the Ministerie. And cannot M. Some see a sen­sible difference betwixt these 2.? Or is he nowe to learne, that there may be a tree that neuer had apple, and that a man may haue a lawful ministerie commit­ted vnto him, and yet neuer come to anye of these, because he may either dye or by occasion be recalled or depriued by the Church before.

Yet among al his outrules I doe not thinke that his penne hath more squared in any one thing, then in this, that he chargeth his aduersarie to say flatlye, and yet it is but a Flat lye Neither: that the want of a Sermon maketh th'action frustrate, that is, the sacrament [Page 77] to be no sacrrment, and that a Sermon is simply of th'es­sence 97 of a sacrament. &c. vppon which Imagination or rather dreame of his owne braine, he keepeth greate a doe after his manner, making it one of his solemne chapters to prooue vnto vs forsooth, that midnight is not high none, but if the words (as he hath set them downe) be not to be found in all that euer M. Penri hath published, me thinks M. Some should be striken with some remorse, especially when he remembreth that A lying tongue slaieth the soule, and a false witnes pulleth shame and confusion vppon himselfe. But it may be you wil say that though the very words be not there, yet the same very sence must of necessitie be ga­thered out of that which M. Penri hath written: For doth he not say I pray you, that the substantial forme of consecration, is conteined in the exposition of the holy institution, and th'inuocation of the name of God, all which are necessarily required in th'administration of the sacrrmente? Most true he saith so in deed: I se noe danger why he may not say so againe: for what is there here (if it be rightly examined) that is either blasphe­mous or injurious to the holy saith that we professe? First he saith not here (if you marke it) that, that the substantial forme or essence of the Sacrament consisteth in th'exposition or inuocation, &c. but that the substā ­tiall forme of Consecration, as if he should say, there is no true consecration, no substantiall forme of blessing and hallowing of the Sacrament, without exposition of the word, and invocation of the name of God: Which I take to be very sound and inviolable, and therein I referre me to the learned. Nowe whether the elements deli­uered be a sacrament without this Consecration, that is, without the opening of the word, & calling on the name of God, that is another question: Albeit I doe not read in the whole Scripture, that there was euer [Page 78] any sacrament administred without one of these. And if a man should tell M. Some, that Where there is ney­ther of these, that is, that where there is neyther breaking of the word, nor invocation of the name of God, there is no Sacrament at all: I thinke this might well inough be just [...]fied. And I would faine knowe of M. Some for my lerning, if a minister lawfully called, should rude­ly and abruptly come into the congregation, and step­ping straight to the Communion table, should with­out more adoe, deliuer the elementes to the people, onely with these bare wordes: Take, eate, this is my bodie, &c. If he should I saye, so far forget himselfe, as neither to vse prayer nor exposition of the word at al in that action: Whether this were a sacrament or no, I suppose nor. For what is the thing that doth sanctifie the elementes, consecrate and seperate them to that holy vse, but onely The worde and prayer. Take away that, and then are they you knowe, but in the case of our common and ordinary sustenaunce. And M. Some himselfe saith in one place, that The very life of the sa­craments dependeth vpon Gods promises expressed in his 119 holy worde. Now if there be no promise, but where the invocation of Gods name is, thē it is cleare, that with­out it, the thinges deliuered, are but bare and dead e­lements, because they are not consecrated according ro th'institution. But well you see how M. Some doth herein bring his Ergo about, to prooue out of his ad­versaties owne words, That the want of a sermon, doth make the action frustrate. Then thus it must bee whe­ther he will or no, if he will make any thing of it.

The exposition of the holy institution, and th'invoca­tion of the name of God, is necessarily required in th'ad­ministration of Baptisme.

Ergo, without a sermon, there can be no sacrament. Which (as I cōceiue) is a cōsequent much like to this:

[Page 79] The examination and ripping vp of a mans own heart, with the arraignement of his conscience, is necessarily re­quired of every one that will present himself at the Lords table:

Ergo without this examination, he receiuce no Sacrament

The lame legge of both the consequents, lyeth in these words, necessarily required: Which if it be taken of that inevitable necessitie, that the want thereof should vtterly destroy the very nature and essence of the thing in question, then indeed it were a good con­sequent: But vnderstanding necessary in regard of our obedience to the holy ordinaunce and institution of Christ (the breach whereof, is onely a sinne in the do­er, and no overthrow to the thing done) In this sence I thinke M. Some will yeelde, that his braue Ergo lim­peth and shrinketh in the sinowes vnreasonably. But what will you say, if the man that you reverence so, be taken now and then with a tricke of a false singer? you would be sory for that I am sure: you do not heare me say, that he can iuggle or help a die, I would not haue you to take me so. My meaning is onely, that he can for need if he be not watched, slily wipe out a worde or two out of the text for his advantage: and another time peradventure, glide me in a worde or two more then hee shoulde, to make th'evidence a little more pleadable. This you know is a falt, but yet such a falt, as you shall perceiue by M. Some, that a learned man may falt in sometimes if he be not locked vnto: For where M. Penri sayth thus: We are alreadie receiued into the bosome of the Church, and acknowledged to haue the seale of the Covenant, in asmuch as we were once offe­red and received, &c. See howe your D. controlleth this, in his third page of his rolle of errors. If: his be true which M. Penri saith, th'outward and bare element deliuered by him, which in his owne judgement is no mi­nister, [Page 80] is the seale of Gods covenant: which is a most ab­surd heresie. Marke here I say a false finger, for how els coulde the poore Welshman haue bene an absurd he­reticke? The pithe of the whole matter lying in this word Acknowledged, M. Doctor hath quite left it out: For M. Penri doth not say absolutely, That we haue the seale of the covenant, but we are acknowledged to haue it And is there not a sensible difference betwixte these two? For it is certaine, that Baptisme of women, ney­ther is not can be in trueth, the seale of Gods cove­naunt: but yet you see (as I haue prooued to you be­fore) both by the practize of our Churche, and by the interpretation of my L. of Winchester, that it is plain­ly acknowledged amongest vs for the seale of Gods covenant, otherwise it shoulde neuer passe as it doth amongest vs without any interruption, questioning, controllment, or enquirie. If then there be a plam dif­ference betwixt having, and acknowledged to have, then I pray you do you so much as devise some honest meanes to salue this false finger, for I promise you I cannot.

Furthermore in that point of the magistracy (which M. Penri is soe charged to haue handled with very foule and bepitched hands) the very words which M. Doctor would seeme most to make vantage of. vz. de­uise of man. I cannot finde in al M. Penries booke, sure I am, they be not to the places quoted, betwixt the pa­ges. 47. and 51. And if they be not in the booke at all (as I beleue they be not) thē by your leaue we charge him once more with a trick of a false singer, in that he hath thrust in more then was in the text. Nowe if you tell me that though the words be not there, yet they are necessarily gathered out of the sence, then I choke him againe with M. D. owne sentence, Non scriptura sed sensus scripturae est heresis, it is not M. penries words [Page 81] but M. Somes glosse and collection vpon the woords, that makes this absurd heresie: But your D. granting that S. Peter doth indeede call magistracie A bnmane ordinance, doeth withal assure vs that th'Apostle did not thereby meane that Magistracie was ordeined and deuised by man: It may be he looks for thanks for this, which though of curtesie we may yeld him, yet you may tel him that our ignorance is noe more releeued by this, then it is by a hundred thinges more in his booke, which we knew before, marry he tels vs with­all: That it is not th'Apostles words but the sence that M. Penry giues them, that is Anabaptistical, in deede we thanke him for this, it is some more good manner 137 yet, then is in olde Lockwoode of Sarum, for if he had the matter in handeling, there had bene some danger that th'Apostle woulde haue prooued an Anabaptist: Wel nowe th'Apostle hath obteined that fauor to be cleared, howe shal wee doe to cleare M. Penri, whose sence vppon the words M. Some will needs haue to be Anabaptistical? First in that he doth neuer say so, but rather the contrary as M. Some himselfe acknoledg­eth in these words, you confesse in this place that Ma­gistracie 136 is th'ordinance of God, me thinks in equitye this should be a reasonable clearing to him: Nay I say farther that as he he hath noe such words, so there can be no such sence gathered out of his words with­out violence: In deede if your D. had put but one. A. before, then I would haue taken his parte that such a sense might very well haue bene gathered of that which M. Penri sets downe: As when he speaks of Cin­cinatus, Tarquinius, Opinius, Candaules, Gracchus and the rest: A man with halfe an eie may easily see that he speaks not indefinitely of Magistracie, but of a Ma­gistracie in such an age, and such a time, which his owne very words doe so cleare, as thereby mallice it [Page 82] selfe may blush and be silent: There may (saith he) be 47 48 a lawful Magistracie according to the word, whose name & office was neuer heard of before in the worlde, so can there not be a Ministery. &c. here you see plainly hee speaks not of Magistracie indefinitely, but of A Magi­stracie: As for example, if her Maiestie should erecte nowe a newe kinde of gouerment either at Windesore or at Kingston vppon Thames, (as by her pretogatiue shee may doe if she list,) and cal th'one of them, The Tribunes of Windesore, and th'other The Consulls of Kingston: This k [...]nde of magistracie in that it was ne­uer knowne nor hearde of before, may truly without any blemish to the honor of God, be called A deuise of man, and yet Magistracie in general and indefinite­ly vnderstood, the very immediate ordinance of God prescribed in the word: and this me thinks is so plaine as I cannot beleeue that olde D. Stumbler himselfe, I meane the Prince of all the Stumblers in the worlde, vz. Sir Iohn of Sarum would euer stumble at it. Ther­fore if in wringing this sence out of his aduersaries words flat contrary to the drift and intent of the wri­ter, he did willingly and of purpose leaue out A set­ting downe Magistracie indefinitely, in lew of A Ma­stracie, wee must be so bolde by his leaue, to charge it vpon his head with the rest, as a tricke of a false finger wheresoeuer he learned it.

An other thing there is in this chapter of M. Somes that for mine owne part I can conceiue noe sence of, namely this: That Magistracy is an ecclesiastical consti­tution: this I confesse is a mistery to me, and soundes more harsh in mine eares a greate deale, then that which M. Penri is charged with, vz. Deuise of man, which may in a sorte you see be justified, and there­fore I would ride a good way I tell you, to heare this matter soundly and substantially prooued: I heare in­deede [Page 83] a heauy sentence, pronounced on all those that shall dare to denie it to be an Ecclesiastical constitutiō, vz. That is a very grosse & Anbaptistical error, but this doeth neither fright vs nor satisfie vs: For hauing sene a number of the like thunderclapps before, and little raine falling after them, but onely a bare ratling in the air, we haue certainly determined with our selues that they shall neuer fright vs more if there come a hundreth of them, in the meane time if you aske mee what I thinke of Magistracie, I answere freely: That it is the holy ordinance of God prescribed in the worde, for th'vse and comfort of man, & is therefore called of the Apostle, a humane ordinance, in that his proper obiect & office is to deale in humane things: And will not all this serue to cleare a man from Anabaptistrie, but he must confesse withal, that it is an Ecclesiasticall constituti­on? This goeth hard, to binde vs to entertaine a stran­ger vpon so small acquaintance: Good intreat your D. to resolue vs and instruct vs first, & then vpon our contumacie if neede be, to proceed to sentence, and so to pronounce vs Anabaptists. In other needles points I remēber your D. is but to vnreasonable ful of his au­thorities, Calvin, Beza, P. Martyr, Famous Churches, & I know not who, in somuch that sometimes he leaues no roome almost either for grounded reason, or scrip­ture, there is such a presse of them: yea, and in one place he tels M. Penri and that aloude, All the learned agree with me, and dissent from you: And will all these his learned friends forsake him now trow ye, when he hath most need of them? Surely I beleeue they will if they be well examined: For I do not thinke that he can for his life bring out that man, if he be worth whi­steling, I meane any good, sound, and learned author, either olde or new, that he may honestly muster with himselfe in this point, to call Magistracie (as he doth) [Page 84] by the name of Ecclesiasticall constitution: There­fore as he saith by M. Penri, so we thinke we may just­ly say by him, that in this case he may worthely walke iole by iole with H. N. indeed. But his proofes if you mark them, are even as pregnant as the matter it self. I must needs say they be sure onsal, for they are fetched out of the scripture the most of them, as you may see by these: By me kings raigne (saith he) Prouerb. 8. Thou couldest haue no power at al against mee, vnlesse it were giuen thee from aboue, saith Christ our Sauiour to Pi­late, Iohn. 19. There is no power but of God, whosoeuer therefore resisteth power, resisteth the ordinance of God, Rom. 13. more he laieth downe an other reason drawn from the reuerence that is imprinted by almightye God in the harts of subiects, At quorsum haec? matty to prooue vnto vs (as I coniecture that Douer Castle stands where it did the last yeare,) or els as M. Some saith, that midnight is not high noone: By this you may 187 see that when a naile is knocked fast in a wheele, turne the wheele neuer so many times about, the naile will be stil where it was: Even so it is in this case with M. Some, he turnes and turnes, and it may be sweates in turning, and yet when he hath don, he leaues the naile sticking where it was: For what hath he woon I pray you by al this? Forsooth That Magistracie is the ordi­nance of God: And where is that Muscouite that doth donie it? Proude Penri you see doth grant it, The Scis­matical Catabaptist doth graunt it, he that hath bre­ched so mary popish, blasphemous, & Anabaptisticall fansies, this man doth graunt it by M. Somes owne confession: And could he then be so jellous to suspect any man els? Nowe sure your D. hath a maruelous suspitious head, wel for his farther satisfaction, and to ease him of som paines hereafter, I wil here giue him my fre warrant vnder my hand to cry Crusisige against [Page 85] him that should denie it, and therefore let him neuer drawe weapon more in the defence of that assertion. that Magistracie is the ordinance of God prescribed in the worde, for it yeelded him without blowes: But in the meane season, what is become of Ecclesiastical con­stitution? I heare nothing of that gentlewoman al this while: Is shee fled ouer with the Iesuites? If shee be, it were good to fetch her againe by proclamation, lest she die in exile: For I can tell you this proper Enthi­mem will neuer fetch her againe while the worlde stands: It is an ordinance of God prescribed in the word, Ergo. it is an ecclesiasticall constitution. This I say will be founde to weake though all the Doct. of Sorbona shoulde set their hands to it: For is there not a flatte opposition betwixt Ciuill and Ecclesiastical; I take it there is, and I am sure I haue heard learned men say so. And is not Ciuil iurisdiction an ordinance of God pre­scribed in the word? me thinks it should, why then by this newe founde consequent, we shall haue short lye a newe vniuersitie nosgay, vz. that ciuil iurisdiction is an Ecclesiastical constitution, and that were good time but small reason: Euen so Warre, Phisicke, The inhe­ritance of men, and a number of things more would be found to be Ecclesiasticall constitutions, because they are all the ordinance of God prescribed in the worde. And if this will not hold water, then I dare avow your D. hath not any thing els, in that his 13. chapter more then his bare word (which we are now glutted with) to warrant that outlandish assertion of his: That Ma­gistracie is an Ecclesiasticall constitution, &c. Moreo­uer, if in speaking of the ministery of the New Testa­ment, that be a true proposition, that Sola ecclesia vo­cat, The Church onely calleth, as I haue heard it aveared by learned men, that the Lord doth not now call any more extraordinarily from heuen as in times past, but [Page 86] hath left that to be done Per suffragia ecclesiae tantum, onely by the voyce and allowance of the Church: if I say this be sounde, and will abide the fire (as I verily thinke it will) then marke what I saye to you: if your D. with al his lerning, be not taken in as foule, grosse, and more palpable absurditie then ever th'ignoraunt Welshman was, ile loose my credit, and that were pi­tie you know, that so proper a man as I shoulde loose his credite. But will you see howe vnresistably I can bring this geare about? then lay downe your booke a while and giue eare.

Will you haue it in English now? For ile neuer dis­semble you, I doe by my Latine, as that sweet babe of Sarum doth by his greeke and Hebrue, begg and bor­row here a patch, and there a patch, as the Dictiona­ries that come in my way do yeeld me sustenance. And if any thing hapen to be false, then it was either Chard my printers fault, or else my Dictionarie was not of the last edition, or els my candle wanted snuffing. But let me not forget my argument I pray you, for it may be I take a pride in it: Then I say,

Where there is no Church, there there is no calling, for Sola Ecclesia vocat: Otherwise, the Churches prero­gative in this case, shoulde not be aboue the heathen and vnbeleeuers, if it were in them to call both alike: (take me I pray you, that I speake still of the ministe­ry of the New Testament or els you offer me wrong) In that case I say, it is the Churches only to call. And therin I appeal to the flowre of your own vniuersitier I do not mean D. Copquot, for we count him but of the middle sort, as we set D. Bridges and D. Pearne in the [Page 87] seuenteenth fourme behind him: No I meane the ve­ry ornaments of your Vniversitie in deed, whose very names and liues doe cary with them an estimation to be reverenced: D. Fulke, D. Goad, D. Whytaker, & M. Chaterton: To these men I saye I appeale, to speake their consciences herein, euen Coram tribunali, whe­ther it be not a firme trueth, That there is no calling out of the Church: Speaking of the ministerie of the New Testament. That then being set downe as a brazen wall, I go on in the face of the enemie with my target in my hand in this manner.

Where there is no calling, there there can be no mini­sterie, Ile never stande to prooue that for shame: For he is worthier of a censurer (as M. Some sayth) then a refuter that will deny that. And last of all

Where there is no ministerie, there there can be no Sa­crament. For Nullum sacramentum sine Ministro. This M. Some himselfe confesseth eyther twice or thrice, & calls it a rule in divinitie.

The conclusion therfore is: That there can be no Sa­crament out of the Church, and then say I M. Some is be­raied, who houlds that true baptisme is and may be out of the Church, wherein it is no more possible for him to escape an absurditie, then it was for Campion to e­scape hanging. And howe say you nowe? Had it not bin prety that my Logick should haue died in a ditch? Wel in good sadnesse for al that, alow me but my first proposition to be true (as I hope you wil) that there is noe calling into the Ministerie but only of the Church, & then good leaue haue you to bringe vpon me a thou­sand Augustines, Calvines, or Bozaes, or all the famous churches in the worlde, I say in reuerence to them all, Instar mille veritatis calculus, yet M. Some yeelds that Cyprian was of that judgment, and then wee dare be bolde to say that he was in that point of a true judg­ment [Page 88] against them all: For I haue heard baptisme de­fined to be an action of the whole Church, that the whole congregation hath an interest in that Sacra­ment: And if it be so, if it be th'action of the church, howe can it be where there is noe Church? Further­more M. Some himselfe calls it an entrance into the vi­sible Church, an engrasting into the true Christ, al which howe it may stand, and yet be out of the Church, (I confesse mine owne ignorannce) I see neither sequell nor possibilitie: As to that which is inferred in this case of Heretikes, of Caiphas, of Iudas, and such like, I take it vnder correction to be quite beside the cushen, for as I knowe that the wretchednesse and treachery of Iudas, coulde not overthrowe his caling and Mi­nistery, being the very same that Peters was: So doe I also know, that no holinesse or godlinesse of any man whatsoeuer, (if he be blinde or dumbe) can approoue his caling into the ministery: And therevppon I re­porte me to you, whether this conclusion haue not a wry mouth.

Iudas, Cayphas, heretikes and such vile wretches, may haue (for all their lewdnes) a lawfull ministerie, and so deliuer a sacrament:

Ergo popish priests and dumbe ministers (for all their ignorance and inabillitie to teach) may haue and doe the lyke.

Me thinks this argument smells as if it were shaped at Salisbury, I cannot tel, but I am greatly deceiued if I haue not seene M. D. Bridges ride on such a lame Iade in my daies. Therefore aduise your D. to beware of these curtailes and hacknies of Sarum, that wil stū ­ble vnreasonably and tyre at every to. miles ryding, wee knowe it right well and wee knewe it before M. Some wrote that the case may be so, that an heretike may deliuet true Baptisme: And if Ciprian were abso­lutely [Page 89] of a coutrary judgment to this, wee holde with M. Some he was wide. But what is this to those on whome it is not possible to fasten any such callinge into the ministery, because they are as I may say, of an vncapable nature, as Infants, dumb men, blinde men, &c And (as Mast. Penri will needes haue it) men without gifts? For what a kind of refuting call you this? you holde that men without gifts can haue no calling of the Church: I proue yes, and howe? Marry forsooth, because that Heretikes somtimes may deliuer true baptisme, woulde you not smile at me? And yet this way you shall finde many of your D. mighrie conclu­sions to looke, that is full side West, when the winde would serue him a great deale better into Flaunders. Therefore whereas it pleaseth M. Some, very perem­ptorily to tell his adversarie, that He hath prooved al­readie, 175 that true baptisme hath beene and may be out of the Church: We feare not to tell him as resolutely a­gaine, and that vpon good assurance, That neither he, nor all the Doctors of Sarbona (if they shold sweat their hearts out) can ever proove it while the worlde standeth. And therevpon we conclude against him, that To saye or write, that true baptisme hath bene or may bee out of 176 the Church, is a flat false proposition in divinitie, which by Gods assistance, and her Majesties good favor shal (if he dare procure the encounter) be openly mayn­tained against him or any man of his complexiō with­in the land.

For that which is saide to be among th'Ismaelites and Edomites, I thinke by M. Somes fauor, that a man may truely saye it was no sacrament: Circumcison might well be amongst them, that is, the bare cutting of the foreskinne: but not the sacrament of Circum­cision, as laying on of water may be amongest Mid­wiues, but the sacrament of baptisme can neuer come [Page 90] from their handes: no more was it possible, that in that place where there was no ministerie, there could be anye sacrament, whatsoeuer man or Angell shall mutter against it. But M. Some wil prooue it you shal see, by M. Penries owne confession. For M. Penri saith thus: Neyther coulde any of the godly assure themselues, that an Edomitish priest administred true circumcision according to the substance: Wherevpon M. Some cour­seth him thus: If circumcision were among the Ismae­lites and Edomites (as you write and I affirme) then a 162 sacrament was amongst them, I pray you remember this. In deede he had neede of a good remembraunce that should remember this, for eyther I do not vnderstand English, or els M. Penri saith no such thing: For how if a man should venter to say thus: He is not liuing that can assure himselfe, to finde eyther wit or learning in M. Bridges? Woulde your D. therevpon face vs downe, that we confesse there is either wit or learning in such a buzzard as he? Naye, he shoulde write 36. volumes more first, and every one shall be as bigge as his other booke, and then peradventure he may win our hearts. And here by the way, your D. is once more laide open to the charge of a false finger, which he cannot avoid: For where M. Penri speaking of th'Edomitish circum­cision, calleth it barely a Cutting of the foreskin and a prophanation of circumcision, &c. thereby sufficiently expressing his meaning, M. Some the better to writhe in something to his advantage, and to make the mat­ter a little more saleable, hath twice at the least, foy­sted me in this worde true, which his adversatie hath not at all. As for example, these be M. Somes wordes: Circumcision in Idumea (as you write) was true circum­cision, 114 and a seale of Gods covenant. And againe to the same effect, If th'Edomitish circumcision were true cir­cumcision, and th'Edomitish church no church, then a sa­crament 166 [Page 91] was out of the church. Howe like you this M. Penri? Wherevnto I doe not see, but that M. Penri might justly replie thus: If in all my writings you can­not finde that ever I gaue that name of true circumcisi­on to th'Edomitish circumcision, then are you taken tar­die M. Doctor, and manifestly convinced of legerdimain, How like you this M. Some.

Now if M. Some could abide to be reuerenced, and would not returne it againe vpon vs as he doth to M. Penri with vncurteous and reprochful wordes, wee could here tel him, that we are sory, that a man of his estimation and grauitie, should cumber the eares of the learned with such winde shaken stuffe, as is fitter a great deale, for that sory chaplaine of Sarum, then for him. The best is he tels vs, That excellent men haue 144 their second thoughts wiser then their first, & that puts vs in some comfort, that he being (if he deceiue not himselfe) an excellent man, we shal (if it please God) for al his choller, see some printed record of a Seconde thought of his, that shal indeed be wiser, and of more pawzed and grounded judgment then the first, or els I promise you we are halfe shamed. And I tell you true, I like not this jeasting: Therefore me thinks it were good in this case, that your D. did set before his eies his noble Auncestor of Sarum, whoe by a foolish custome of reasoning thus loosely, and shuffeling in desperatly he cares not what, is so far gone as he seeth with a Fleuer Lourdaine, that his braine was neuer in good temper since. And certainly let him looke to it, for if he doe not better bethinke himselfe hereafter, to answere in other sort then hitherto he hath done, It will sure increase the Iealousie and suspition of ma­ny, who begin to distrust some priuy maime in M. Somes manhood, that he is not the man he is taken for and that all that greate knowledge which he so boa­steth [Page 92] of, wil without some speedy redres, fall ere it be long into some feareful consumption of the reyns, be­cause the veynes that swel so, are commonly fuller of winde then of bloud, yet for mine owne part, I had ra­ther a great deale attribute all these defects, byships & out rules of his, to that extreame passion and vnrulye affection that quite overswareth his judgment, and is able both to mate and to amaze a man, yea and soe to blindefolde and bewitch him, that he may soone breake his face against a walle, if he looke not to it: And this sure was the cause (as I judge) that the ve­rye maine pointe betwixte his aduersatie and him, he had not (it shoulde seeme) any leasure to pervse: Eor the question being whether we may be assured to receiue a Sacrament at the Dumbe Ministers hands, the very marrow and life of the whole controuersie lying in this word. Assured, your D. hath faier giuen it the slipp, and hath not as far as I see in any on line, clauze or sentence thorough out his whole booke, so much as looked that way: Nay it seemeth to me, he is halse afraied of it when he seeth it. For in the last place that I before mentioned of th'Edomites, where M. Pemi saith that the godly cannot assure themselues, &c. what saith M. Some to this? Not a word I warrant you, tush he is among the organs at Pauls, or els looking out of his window towardes Lambeth, what should he med­dle with the thing in question? Can not an olde, vni­uersitie man finde his pen play enough without that? And therefore hee threatens kindenesse on his aduer­sarie and wil needs wring from him whether he will or no. An acknowledgment of a Sacrament among the Edomites, and prayeth him to remember it: yet some mē thinke this matter of Assurance had bin the most need ful thing of al other for your D. to haue dealt in, for the cutting of of al seruple, and the satisfing of mens [Page 93] mindes. For though a man shoulde make no question of the baptisme deliuered in times past by popish sha­uelings, but satisfiing himselfe with those other com­forts that he findeth in the holy excercises of Reli­gion, should neuer trouble himselfe to looke back so farre, though I say a man should make no question of that which is past, yet I se no hurt to desire to be assu­red in that which is to come, which Assurance (as M. Penri saith) can never be had but by saith, in the pro­mises of God, and that is the point he stands most vp­pon in al his writings, vz. that in the whole scripture of God there is no promise to bare readers, and men without gifts to deliuer, and therefore no warrant for vs to receiue any sacrament at their hands. All which if M. Some could overthrowe any otherwise then with some such stale jeasts as this, why then my grandefather was not christened, he might happen work more mira­cles then he is like to doe. For he must thinke, that it is neither these consequences nor inconueniences, that smel so much of the flesh, nor yet the authoritie of Calvin or Beza (though wee shoulde admire their gifts and reuerence them as Angells) that can settle a mans hart in this case, it must be only the word of the living God and nothing els, out of which, whensoeuer we see any sufficient recorde to warrant this promise wherevppon our faith must be grounded, it shall by Gods grace drawe presently from vs a willnig and re­uerent subscription to the truth, with an open revoca­tion of al that ever hath bin written in that pointe to to the contrary: But that there is no such Scripture to be had for money, wee gather as by others, so specialy by this late treatise of M. Somes, wherin I dare be bold to say, and I speake it advisedly, for I thinke I haue vewed it meetly wel, there is not to be found any on text of holy scripture to proue this Assurance, which [Page 94] is the maine point in question, and then say we what­soeuer he proueth els, there is some reason he should haue his labour for his travell, because he hath bene at so vnreasonnable charges to wounde his owne sha­dow, and do his adversarie no hurt.

Touching that point, That the popish Churche is in a sort the Churche of God, though an vnsounde Church: More then that, he croppeth out of Caluine, Phillip de Mornay and others (whiche was not written in suche strange characters neither, but that it might be easily vnderstood before M. Some reuealed it vnto vs) there is little I dare warrant you of his owne worth taking vp as they say: and that is the thing that we expect in a learned man, especially in this florishing age of the Gospell, to yeeld vs some sapp and ioyce of his owne, that thereby our judgements might be bettered, and we also occasioned to praise the giftes and graces of Gods spirit as wel in him as in others. Otherwise thus to cloy vs still, and ouercloye vs with other mens say­ings: why alasse, you see Th'alabaster man of Sarum can do that for need, and that I warrant you so thicke and in so good order, that if he coulde but handsomly turne to them without helpe, it were euen learning inough for a man of his mediocrity, neither might we well require more at his handes with modestie: as in one of his bookes (the 5. as I remember) you shal find that the good soule hath fumbled together, little lesse then 60. pages of other mens writings, and scarce 4. or 5. whole ones of his owne: and is not that a sweete kinde of bookemaking for a mirror to posteritie? Now for the reasons that your D. seemeth to bring of his owne, I am sorie to thinke they should be so ouer tra­velled or troubled with a Sciatica, that they should not be able to looke a man in the face without limp­ing. Will you consider of them a little, and tell mee [Page 95] whether they come not towards you for all the world like Cripplegate men, as if they had need poore crea­tures of some Hospitall to relieue them?

The very name (saith he) of reformed Churches, doth 176 manifestly import, that the churches of England, Germa­nie, Denmarke, &c. (though popishe and vnsound) were yet churches in a sort before: or why els shoulde they bee called reformed churches.

What good lucke was it then, that the protestant churches should light on the name of reformed chur­ches at the first? For if in liew of this, they had happe­ned to haue bene called Christian Churches, you may see M. Some had bene in some distresse for one of his braue arguments, and so peradventure his book would haue prooued lesse then it is, by one 7. or 8. lines at the least: For christian Churches could neuer haue done him halfe that pleasure, as to haue implyed any neces­sitie, that the church of Rome must needs be in a sort, the Church of God before: But it is onely this worde reformed, that hath stroken it dead. Hath not M. Some then good cause to bidd A blessing goe with him who­soeuer he were, that in trauelling ouer the mountains of Arabia, firste founde out this name Reformed, by meanes whereof, he hath as you see, so daunted his ad­uersary, that he dare scarce peepe out of dores? But I pray you tell me, Is it not a miserie, that such vnlear­ned stuffe as this, should drop from the penne of anye man that beareth the face of learning? who woulde stand then to blot paper in refuting that which faleih (as you see) to shievers of it selfe? For when this wor­thy collection is at the strongest, it will be founde but a meere childish Fallax, from the bare name of a thing to a thing in esse, as if it were a good consequent, that this and this must needs be so, because it is so cōmon­ly called, and runnes so corrant in the account of men: [Page 96] And yet vpon the like sandy foundation as this, would he faine enforce vpon his aduersarie, an acknowledge­ment of a Ministerie whether he will or no, and that by his owne confession forsooth: For doth not M. Penri I praye you, call the ministerie of vnpreaching ministers, An euill and prosane ministery? why then haue at you sayth M: Some, a conjugatis, and if that be a Ministerie, then the persons that exercise that fun­ction 183 must needs be Ministers. Will you doe so much for me when you passe that way, as to call at D. Peraes window, to see if he can dissolue you of this doubt? & if he cannot, then let him neuer trouble the Vniuer­sitie more for shame, but faire bundle vp his bookes, and get him to Waltham to some other trade: For if it be manifest, that M. Penri do speake here of such a Ministerie as hath onely the name of a ministerie and nothing els, then must M. Somes reason, a coniugatis, (if he will not haue it to look quite Collyweston) point just likewise vpon suche a minister as hath onely the name of a minister and nothing els: as if one by occa­sion should say thus: This womans baptisme is a verye wretched and miserable baptisme: or thus, This wilde Irishe ministerie is a very vile and abominable ministe­rie: had he not neede trow ye, to haue his wits newe ground, that vpon these or such like speeches, woulde headely inferre any consequent, eyther of a sacrament or ministery indeed, because they are so called? or that the popish Church was reuere & in trueth the church of God, because the bell so sounded in his eare? This being (as you know) one of pore M. Bristowes reasons in his Motiues, to prooue the papists to be Catholiks onely in regarde of the name, in that they be called Catholiks: who woulde haue thought that M. Some would euer haue bestowed new varnishing of an olde rustie and cankred blade, which was so behackled be­fore, [Page 97] For may not I pray you, the papists by as good a proportion prooue themselues Catholiks by the ve­ry name, or the Midwife of Cheapstow prooue her bap­tisme to be a sacrament by the very name, as M. Some prooues the popish Church to be a Churche, or the dumbe ministerie to bee a ministerie onely for the name? Surely I cannot thinke that his very Carmen, whom he likeneth M. Penri vnto, will euer be dismai­ed 102 with suche poore papershort conclusions as these. Well to make some amends, you shall see now if you please, the reason of all reasons, euen such a one, as if you looke not to it, will go neere to clatter the glasse windowes in pieces.

Antichrist must sit in the Temple of God.

Ergo (saith he) The popish Church must needes be the 147 166 Church of God.

This M. Some thinks to be a sure one, and it semeth in deed he hath a speciall good liking of it aboue the rest, in that he wil needs (after it hath bene all to be battered and defaced by M. Penri, that it knowes not wel which way to looke) arme it neverthelesse into the field a newe, as if a gilded coate armor could any whit releeue a drooping and crazed carkisse: But now I haue learned the way, let mee a loane with him, let him bring it into the field a thousand times, and that a horsekacke if he will, you shal see, that I am a man good enough for a dozen as braue Silogisines as this: For I faier and flat denie the argument. It may be you wonder at me, but I tel you againe I deny the argu­ment, yea were it openly at the Commencement at Cambridge, I would deny the argument & never blush at it, nay I am a shrewde fellowe I tel you, why doe you not see what a lame legge it hath? There lacks a certaine thing the cal Ever, and then it were a good consequent in deed, Antichrist must ever sit in the tem­ple [Page 98] of god, Ergo. The popish Church must needs be the Church of God. And then by M. D. fauour, if he reason so, I denie th' Antecedent: for it was sufficient say I, that Antichrist first planted his seate in that place, which was once the Church of God, and no necessity that it shoude be so still.

Nay if your D. haue noe better reasons then these, as meane a Clarke as I am, I durst me thinks dispute with him in the point my selfe, and I beleue if a man were disposed to enter into the question, it were noe harde matter to bring other manner of profes against it, then M. Some hath brought with it for any thing I see: For what say you to this I pray you? And tell mee whether I haue forgot my Logicke.

1 If the popish Church continuing Popish, be in any sort the visible Church of God, then there must needs be some one member of it, so continuing a visible member of the Church of God.

2. But it is not possible that any one Member of it so continuing, should be a vizible member of the Church of God, Ergo.

Howe say you? Haue not I as good cause to make my cracks of this argument, as M. Some hath of that braue one of his, of Antichrists sitting in the temple of God? By the way I pray you remember, that I speake not here of Gods eternall councel, or secreet electi­on, but of a vizible Church and vizible members, and not of every vizible Church nether: For I know there is Ecclesia Malignantium the church of the malignant but of the vizible Church of God by profession: also when I speake of the popish Church, you must take me that I speake altogether of such a church and such members as by profession continewe popish, even in the main grounds of popery, otherwise if we agre not of this, we shal but swarue from the question and con­tend [Page 99] in vaine: This being set downe then for the first, I would faine knowe which of my propositions you can denie, for I am perswaded I tell you, that vnlesse they meete with a very vnreasonable wrangler, they are both sound and of musket proofe: As for the Ma­ior, I will neuer for shame loose time to prooue that, It shal lie as it doth for me open to al the worlde, to giue him the blush that shal denie it: For the Minor, if you shal tel me that on may be a papist in this point, as in Crossing, kneeling, oyling, sasling, Pilgrimages, prai­er for the dead. &c. and so continewe, & yet be a mem­ber of Gods Church, you answere nothing: For these and such like slight instances (though they may be o­therwise offensiue to god) be not yet the things a qui­bus dennoiantur tales, though I confesse that these be in deed of the dregs and ossales of popery, (and a ve­ry shrewd signe that they that are wholly drenched herein are scarce sounde at the hart) yet can they not rightly be called papists only for these: As an Arrian, what other errors soeuer he hould, yet is he called an Arrian, & hath his name only for the deniall of the Godhead of Christ & nothing els, which detestable he­resie whensoeuer he renounceth, (though he be wide in some other smaller points) he is no more an Arrian but may wel be reckoned as a member of the Church: In like sort Papistry consisting of these 3. Pillers. 1. The denial of the true & only Headship of Christ, by pla­cing Antichrist in his rome, 2. The denial of the Sole suf­ficient sacrafice of Christ by the vse of their blasphemous & Idolatrous Masse: 3. The deniall of our iustification in the bloude of Christ by saith alone, by thrusting in rags and merits of their owne: This being as I say, the whole frame and groundworke of popery, whensoeuer any man renounceth and a bandoneth this, he is no more say I a Papist, though not withstanding in some other [Page 110] smaller respects, he may peraduenture justly be called Popish, and so may a protestant to in some sorte, as if a woman for the great loue she bare to hir husbande, woulde by noe meanes be perswaded but to pray for his soule when he is gone, or if a man in some scruple of conscience would in noe sort be drawen to tast any meare on good friday as they cal it: This man or wo­man (though otherwise sound in the grounds of reli­gion) may in this regard, truely be called popish, and yet none of the papists neither for all that: In which sence, if M. Some should vnderstand popishe, he must needes make a verye warme conclusion of it, for so might the protestantes Churche be called a popishe church. Therefore vnderstanding popery in that sence that al the godly learned for the most part vnderstand it, that is, for a profession that holdeth of these three heads I spake of before: vz. That Antichrist of Rome: Th' idolatrous Masse: and the deniall of our iustification in the blood of Christ. In this sence I take it, my minor proposition is in it selfe sufficiently rampered against the strongest battery of the best lerned pen vnder he­uen: For who dare say that anye man holding any of these three, & so continuing, can be a visible member of the Church? And if a man may aske it, what was that I pray you that cut of the Iewes from being the people of God? Was it not Insidelitie? For I take it th' Apostle doth not meane in that place that vnbelese made them a stayned or a corrupted Church, but that it quite broke them of from being any Church at all I meane any vizible church, otherwise from the ever­lasting covenant I knowe there can be no breaking of, neither can infidelitie lay holde of those that are once enrolled in the bocke of life: wel then if it be an apa­rant truth that infidelitie cut of the Iewes, not onlye from being a sounde Churche, but from being anye [Page 101] Churche at all, I woulde gladly knowe what Char­ter of priuiledge the Church of Rome hath, but that the very same defection which was the breaking of of the Iewes, must needs also (and that by Gods just judgment) be the cuttinge of of them: But will you heare any more of my arguments? For I begin nowe to be of M. Somes humor, that is, to haue a prety good lik [...]ng of my selfe.

• 1 The church of Infidels can in no sort be the Church of God.
• 2 But the Popish Church is the church of infidells, Ergo.

Remember I pray you that I speake [...] here of a Church of insidels, not that among insidels there is or may be a church, for that is nothing to the matter: no more is that, That vnder the Papacie there is a Church, as M. Some tells vs of that poore Church that is there held vnder captiuitie, and that many of them in th' a­gonies and conflictes of death, did wholly cleaue to the crosse of Christ, & that numbers of them forsooth held the foundation that is Iesus Christ. &c. which as they be misteries that noe man doubts of, so wee an­swere your D. that looke howe many of them did so indeede, looke howe many of them claue wholly and thoroughly (as he saith) to the Crosse of Christ with­out wauering, so many of them (say we) were noe lon­ger papists: as a Iewe by profession in what moment of hower soeuer he forsakes his Iudaisme and cleaues to the Messias, at the same very moment is he no lon­ger a Iewe but a christian, otherwise it is not possible that either a papist continuing a papist, or a Iewe con­tinuing a Iewe shoulde holde the foundation: There­fore the Maior is cleare, that The Church of Insidells continuing Insidels, can in noe sort be the Church of God. The minor is D. Fulks, whose lerned judgment (hauing [Page 102] so notably deserued of this Church of England) if we should nowe for once & vse it not, set against the bare authoritie of Calvin or Beza in this case, I doe not see that it woulde be any greate prejudice or disparage­ment to any: These be his words: The catholike Church of Christ (whereof the Church of England is a part,) is an invizible Church, &c. Contrariwise the Popish Church Consu. S [...]nd of Imag. 168 which is vizible is the church of Insidels, & Rome which is vppon earth is the mother of all Antichristians: Nay but for spending of time it should manifestly appeare vnto you, that there were nothing more easie then to dash this assertion of M. Somes in peeces, and to proue against all the worlde, that The Popish Church is not (as he and some others woulde haue it). a stained, cor­rupted, an vnsound Church but flatly noe Church of God at al: For howe if a man shoulde reason thus?

• 1 That Church that denieth the foundation of our saluation, can in no sort be the church of God at al:
• 2. But the popish Church denieth the foundation of our salvation. Ergo.

Taking the Maior to be so cleare that noe man of judgmente can denie it without some checke to his owne hart and conscience, I would easily for neede & neuer goe farther, confirme my Minor by the sacred & inviolable authority of M. Bridges, Scilicet si sanum haberet Sinciput, that is, if his braine were in temper, or his judgment were woorth a marginal note: For he setts downe plainly in one place: That the Church of Rome doth overthrowe the foundation, which by his confession in an other place is Iesus christ: but because I heare that this learned D. is one of Tarletons execu­tors, and it may be he is nowe very busie in proouing of his will, I woulde be loath to trouble him at this time, nei [...]her were it reason to drawe him from proo­uing his friends Testament, to helpe to proue any pro­position [Page 103] of mine, and therfore I wil for this once giue him good leaue to walke where he will, and content my selfe only with the testimony of D. Fulke whose words against Stapleton be these: If peeces of trueth Contra. Sta­pl. Fort. pag. 35. might be sufficient to make them the Churche of Christ, many heretiks might chaleng the church which haue con­fessed and practised a greate number of more truthes thē they, and doe erre but in one article, as th' Arlans Pelagi­ans. &c. whereas the papists erre in many, yea in the whole doctrine of iustification by faith and the worship of God: Therefore papistry is not onely a scisme, error or heresie, but an Apostacie, defection, and Antichristianitie, &c. Nay more against Bristowe he speaks to this effect: se­ing beside these errors of the fathers ye holde many blas­phemous Rejond. to B [...]istovv, pag 10. heresies which they neuer hold, and vtterly deny th' office of Christ, the foundation of our saluation, there­fore we iustly denie you to be of the true church of Christ. And yet there is an other place as pregnant as any of these, in the 14. page as I take it of the same book a­gainst Bristowe, where he speaketh likewise to the papists in this sort: Ye therefore building saluation vp­pon good workes done after baptisme, do manifestly build Rejond. 14. vpon another foundation, then th' onely true [...]oundation Iesus Christ: and therefore notwithstanding your error, you cannot (as th' old Fathers erring in small matters) be yet the church of God.

Thus you see, I am not so ill befriended, but that I can fetch in my proofes, though M. Bridges were at no leysure to helpe me. But I pray you speake indiffe­rently, is not the evidence very cleare for me, & is not D. Fulk flat against M. Some in that point? doth he not say directly that the popish church is both the church of Infidells, and that it doeth denie the foundation, which were the two points you know, I had in hande to prooue? Neyther if you marke it, doth he mince it [Page 104] with any of these calme and gentle quallifications, as if he did allow it for a Church in a sort, though an vn­sound Church, but he layes it down flatly and expres­ly (as you see) to the view of al men, that it is not at al the Church of God: and he yeelds this reason, because it buildes not vpon the foundation Iesus Christe. Can there any thing be clearer then this? Nowe your D. had best take D. Fulke in hande, and tell him another while, that he doth erre grossely, and that (if he haue anye learning) he doth toto coelo errare: or that [...]is one of the strangest diuines that euer he heard off: or that he is very ignorant, very absurde, and that his ar­guments are pitifull, and his diuinitie at a low eb: or else that his judgement is not worth a rushe, &c. For some such pretie dagger without a sheathe would be­come the house well, and trouble D. Fulke shrewdly: And so we might happen haue a merrie worlde of it, when the sicke man should fall a casting of the phisi­tions water, and M. Some fall a setting Doct. Fulke to schoole. Well yet we must desire him for all that (be­cause it is a law of his owne making) that he will not be ouerhastie to confute M. Fulke before he haue con­futed his resō, for so he wishes M. Penri to do by Cal­vine and others. In deede M. Fulke is a man of singuler learning, an enemie to papistes, &c. A notable light and 143 ornament in Gods Church. What M. Some is, we will not say, we would be loath to doe him wrong: Therefore wee 168 will not match him with so famous a man as M. Fulke is. You may see now by this, whether I be not old excel­lent at the Art of imitation. Me thinks your D. should know the sound of this bell by his clapper, I beleeue he can quickly smell out of what forge it came, and therefore I haue purposely quoted the place that you may commend my wit, for it is but a little altering of the names, you see otherwise the case is all one. And [Page 105] howe if the ignorant Welshman should now in some requitall, be so sawcie to tell him, that he for his part, doth rest in the judgement of this excellent man, with all his heart, & therevpon should will him Neuer to stand 177 pidling longer, but to go through stitch withal, & sithence he is gone ouer the shoes to rush ouer the bootes, &c. and 147 to confute M. Fulke, & to confute him soundly if he can, so shall hee haue the garlande, and be counted the rarest 155 man aliue, &c. But if he cannot (which we are assured of) he shall no more go for a Patriarke among his ignoraunt followers. &c. And if he giue th'onset and faile, be shalbe sure to lose no credit of learning, &c. These with many 18 [...] other mo, being as you know, but the crops and flow­ers of his owne pretie garden. I muze with what pati­ence he would disgeast it, if a man shoulde thus wipe his nose with his owne sleeue: And by this you may see how much your D. hath aduantaged himselfe, by troubling the printer with a number of such worthio Enigmaes, as may as naturally be apropriate to Iohn a Style as to himselfe: By means wherof, if he should happen by occasion hereafter, to appeal from D. Fulke to the word, M. Penri hauing learned the tricke of it, would be sure to choake him straight with a pill, out of his owne confectionarie in this or the like manner. A strange kinde of appealing, when M. Fulkes arguments are drawne from the worde: and then might not your D. well rue the time that euer he drew out his aduer­sarie such a line, as by turning of a thredd, might go neere to strangle himselfe? or is it not full as good Englishe, and euery way as good sence for M. Penri to say thus? Th' argument that I made is indeed M. Fulks and a very sure one: as it is for M. Some to say thus, The argument that I made, is indeed M. Caluines, and a very 80 sure one? What great ods is there I pray you, betwixt these two countertenors? Being famous learned men [Page 106] both, and both notable members of Gods Churche. I see no such difference, but that the ballance is full as heauie at this end as at that: and that it were as lawful for M. Penri (if he were so disposed) to say with reue­rence, that He doth more esteeme of one Fulke, then of a thousand Somes, as it is for M. Some in a kinde of swel­ling and disdainfull contempt (which he hath notably layd open in aboue 200. places in his book) to say that He doth more esteeme of one Caluine, then of a thousand Penries, as if that were any thing to the matter, or as if 168 the bare defacing of his aduersarie, woulde any whit better his cause in the judgement of the wise, or as if the trueth of God did at any time hang vpon the gifts and credit of men.

But now I remember me this is not altogether the bare judgment of D. Fulke alone nether, for his books (being as you see authorised) and aparantly stamped with that State marke of Seene and alowed, we may in that regarde trewly say, that looke what is there advi­sedly set downe as this point, that the popish church is no church at al, must needes be, because it is so often iterated and redoubled, and to be proued very neere in 20. places of his works: therefore I say, looke what is there advisedly set downe, and not by error or over­sight mistaken, is implicite the very judgment and re­solution of our Church and State: which being true, M. Some hath a warme sute of it to keepe such a stirre about the authoritie of Calvine, when those that my L. of Cant. saith can teach Calvine, are of a contrarie judgment, wherevppon I could here once againe for neede (if I had olde Dorbel of Sarum lying by mee,) blunder you out an other proper figure or 2. to troūce M. Some with, that shoulde sounde in your eares like a Iewes trumpe, after the olde melodious manner: Yea my learned D. are you good at that; Is the winde in that [Page 107] doore? are you still controling of our church & state. &c. But because you are reasonably acquainted with this sweete note already, I wil not stand nowe to set it in parts, only you may see by this, that if a man shoulde chance to tel M. Some to his face, that to holde that the Romish church is in a sort the church of God, is a grosse and palpable error, there were no danger in it at all, be­cause he that shoulde so doe, hath you see, not only the judgement of a famous learned man to backe him, but also the flat alowance of the Church of Eng­land to beare him out in it: For Papistry being (as M. Fulke hath proued) not only a Scisme, error, and heresie Rejond, to Bristovve pag. 5. but an vtter defection and a meere Apostacie compact of all errors, what shoulde feare vs to say and avowe that our christian magistrates haue done wel not on­ly with Thrasibulus to fly from the tiranny of Athens, but rather with Lot and his family to leaue the whole city of Sodome, wherein there was not any free place but al the body one a blister? Even soe if the popishe Church be in trueth nothing els, but a very lumpe, masse, and body of Apostacie, what a proper nice dis­stinction were this to say, that our Magistrates haue indeede seuered themselues from the corruption of A­postacie, but not from Apostacie it selfe, as if there were any thing in Apostacie but corruption? Therefore if M. Some doe thinke he haue any advantage that way, good leaue haue he to make his best of it: For we, are not afraide to say and say it againe, yea and if it were possible, to proclaime it in the hearing of al the chur­ches in the world, that Q. Elizabeth & her godly ma­gistrates haue not only seuered themselues from the plague that pestereth the city, but from the very city of Sodome it selfe, not onely as he saith from the cor­ruption of the popish Church, but from the very po­pish Church it selfe, and the reason is because it is in no [Page 108] sort the Church of God, hauing overthrowne the foun­dation, and therefore must needs (whether M. Some will or noe) be the very Sinagog of Sathan: And then say I as before, that our magistrates haue done well, & that which they may justifie by good warrant from Gods worde, otherwise they shoulde be apparantlye guiltie of a greuous sin which after my kinde of Lo­gicke I prooue thus.

1 All christian Magistrates are bounde vtterly to divorce themselues from that Church, not only from the corruptions of that Church, but from that very Church and society it selfe, which hath made a diuor­cement from Christ & erreth in the foundation of our faith:

2 But the Romish Church (as is before sufficient­ly prooued) hath made such a divorcement & erreth in the very foundation: Ergo.

Our Magistrates ought (as thanks be to God they haue done) vtterly to diuorce themselues from that very Church it selfe, & therefore neede not M. Somes helpe to cleare them from being Scismatikes:

Thus you may see M. Somes worthy distinction of our Magistrats, not severing themselues from the Church but from the Idolatrie of the Churche, &c. Is by this meanes quite quashed in peeces: For if it were indeed in any sort the Church of God, then woulde fall out this strange paradoxe, that one and the selfe same bo­die of a Church might in a sort be the church of Christ and in a sorte againe the Churche of Antichrist, and that might be a peece of Iohn a Bridges diuinitie wel enough for the soundnesse of it: Furthermore if it were only but from the staines and corruptions of the popish Church that this our seperation was made (as M. Some woulde haue it) then belike they and we are both one body of a Church, though ours be as much [Page 109] more refined body then theirs: But howe can that be when they holde not the same heade and foundation that we doe? For one body you knowe must haue but one head otherwise it is a monster: They then hauing an other heade, then we haue, we may safely conclude that they are not of the same body with vs, neither doe I see any warrant for a Christian man to seuere himselfe from the bodie of Gods Church (in that sort as we haue seuered our selues from Rome) for any ble­mishes or corruptions whatsoeuer: For so might out Brownists (if they list) get themselues a pretty plea­dable shelter of defence, and tel vs, That they doe not forsooth seuere themselues from our congregation as from the City: but from the plague that pestereth the citye. Not from the common wealth, but from the Tirannie that op­presseth the common wealth: Not from our Church, but from the soule disorders that bleamish our Church, &c. And if they should thus temper the matter, I muze whether M. Some woulde be so curteous to take that for paiment: But it is not come to that you see, for our Brownists are farre of any such coulorable pretences: They goe more roundly to worke with vs then so, & bash not to tel vs plainly (though indeede very wret­chedly and falsely) That our church is not at al the vi­zible church of God, and for that cause it is, that they bear vs in hand, they do so single themselues from vs, and not for any disorders that might otherwise blea­mish or dissigure our Church, why shoulde we then more mince it with our papists?, then these men doe with vs, clawing them with I konwe not what tollera­ble and halfe faced alowance of a Church forsooth: though an vnsound Church? Or why shoulde not wee deale as roundly with the enemies of God in a trueth as the Brownists do with the children of God in a fals­hood? Or why should we feare to make knowne vnto [Page 110] the worlde that it is not for this or that corruption, or anye patches or peeces of vnsoundenesse, that wee haue thus seuered from the Romish Sinagogue, but only for that the very founteine it selfe is altogether as a poizened puddle, whence nothing can flowe na­turally but continuall streames of corruption? And therefore that it is not, nor neuer was since her gene­ral defection and Apostacie, any more the Church of God, then the very church of the heathen or Infidels. Marke I pray you, that I say noe more the Church of God, for albeit in some regarde it may peraduenture be neerer the Church of God, (in that they haue a­mongst them I knowe not what rubbishes, remnants, and traces of some good things,) yet to speake of a Church indeed as a Church, it may truely be saide to be no more the Church of God then the very church of the heathen or Infidels, I speake not heere of the nation of the Iewes, who in regarde of Gods promise are neerest of al, I speake only of the heathen and In­fidels, and in comparison with them, I say that as a lumpe of Iron or steele is no more an axe heade, then either a peece of wood or stone, though in nature & possibilitie it be neerer: Euen so, if M. Some will haue vs say that the Romish Church is any thing neerer, or in possibilitie liker to be the Churche of God, then that of the hethen or Infidels, we wil not greatly stick with him: Any farther alowance we may not wel giue to the popish Church without sinne, the reason is be­cause it hath vtterly cast of the foundation of Iesus Christ crucified, without whome al the learning & elo­quence of men or Angells can not make a Church, & therefore he that shal either file his pen or straine his witts to prooue it, shall when he hath strugled to the vttermost, but miserably striue like a birde in the lime, and so flutter himselfe windelesse in his owne conceit.

[Page 111] Nowe for those prerogatiues and preheminences that are cōmonly giuen to the popish Church aboue other hethen & Idolatrous Churches, if a man should aske M. Some what they be, it is like he woulde begin straight with true baptisme, which if M. Penri should stande vppon as a slat begging of the question, I doe not thinke that your D. with al his skil coulde trauel much farther that way: But alowe it to be so, that in popery there is baptisme, yet you see by M. Somes di­uinitie, we are neuer the neerer for a Church, because he holdes that true baptisme may be our of the church Wel what be the other good things that they are sup­posed to haue? If you say the Trinitie, I aske where? in their windowes? If you saye the scriptures, I aske where? in their coffers? If you say our sauiour Christ I aske howe many of them they haue, or rather howe many hundred dozen of them? For him alone I am sure, either as mediator, intercessor, or redeemer they haue not. So that a man may truely saye, they haue much good things but the swine eate them vp all. The very trueth is, let the fayth and profession of a christi­an be rightly scanned after the line of Gods word, and it will be found (howsoeuer men like to smothe it, or smother it) that they haue in deede none of all these things, and the more they haue of them, in that maner as they haue them, the greater is their condemnation And I take it, that M. Beza himselfe in his Antithesis betwixt the fayth of a christian, and the fayth of a pa­pist, doth sufficiently proue that they hold not a soūd profession in anye one article of the fayth. Howe can that be then the Church of God that venteth & run­neth our euery where, that faileth in euery article, & hath not so much as one sounde sinowe to trust vnto? yea and by your leaue I do not see, but that out of M. Caluine himself if he were narrowly loked into (thogh [Page 112] M. Some erect him as a piller against vs, in a manner in euery leafe) there might easily inough be drawne ar­guments to confirme this judgement of ours. I graunt indeed he saith thus: Whereas we will not simply grant to the papists the tytle of the Church, we do not therefore denie that there be churches among them: likewise again in another place in the same section he saith thus, We doe not denie but that vnder the tyrannie of Antichrist remaine Churches, &c. Which is no more in effect then M. Some himselfe hath said before. And I cannot con­ceiue how this shoulde prejudice the cause any whit, for let vs draw it into forme if you please:

Among the papistes there are Churches, or vnder the tyrannie of Antichrist there are Churches:

Ergo The popish Church is in a sort the church of God

I denie the argument, neither is there any conse­quence in it at all: For it is not inough say I, to be a­mong and vnder, but as I haue prooued before, they must be thēselues thorough papists, euen in the maine grounds of poperie, and so continue vnto th'ende, o­therwise it is not possible to frame th'argument, with out the string hault do what they can. Yet rather this semeth to be much stronger against it, when M. Caluin reasoneth to this effect: Like as a mans life is at an ende Institut. lib. 4. cap. 2. sect. 1. when his throat is thruste thorough, or his heart deadly wounded, So when lying is broken into the chief Tower of religion (as no man doubts I trow, but it is in poperie) the destruction of the Church followeth. Marke here, he saith not the corruption of the Churche (as M. Some wold haue it) but the destructiō of the church, which immediatly after he explaneth thus: If the true church be the piller and stay of the truth, it is certaine that there is no Church (he dorh not saye an vnsounde Churche) where lying and falshood hath vsurped the dominion. Ye and in the fourth section of the same chapter, hee is [Page 113] yet more cleare for vs to this effecte: Where the do­ctrine of the prophets and Apostles is not, there remai­neth nothing that giues anye true signification of the church: if nothing, what babble they of baptism, Lords prayer and I know not what? But in poperie say I, the doctrine of the prophets and Apostles is not. Ergo: & me thinkes th'argument is vnanswerable, which in the end of the seuenth section he confirmeth thus: Who dare call that the Church, where the worde of the Lord is openly and freely troaden vnder foote, yea the very soule of the Church is destroyed, &c: But in poperie this is a­parant, Ergo. Lastly, in the tenth section of the same chap. he reasoneth thus: If they be Churches (saith he, speaking of popish Churches) then they haue the power of the keyes: But the keyes are vnseperably knit with the word, which from thence is quite driuen away, and there vpon he concludes, That either the promise of Christ is in vaine, or els that in that respect they are no Churches. Can any thing be spoken more plainely and directly then this? out of which places, howe if a man should now argue with M. Some in this manner.

Where the power of the keyes is not, and where the word of God is quite driuen away, there it is vnpossible to be any church of God at all:

But in poperie this is so, witnes M. Caluin. Ergo.

I confesse to you it is strange, and strange againe to me, that the vizible Church being (as I take it) al­waies knowne by the Worde, Sacraments and Disci­pline: the speciall and principall marke of the 3. be­ing the worde, in that it giueth life and authoritie to th'other, there shoulde yet be a churche where this worde is not: that where this worde is quite driuen a­way, where the very soule of the church is destroyed, where there cannot be so much as any true significa­tion of the churche, the doctrine of the prophets and [Page 114] Apostles being vtterly bannished, wherefore I say, all this is (as Master Caluine sufficiently prooueth) there should yet be a Church, this is a wonderfull misterye to me. It had neede be in deede as they saye, a church secundum quid: And yet if there bee nor (as Master Caluine saith) so much as any true signification of the Churche) I doe not see but that they may bee bolde to blot out secundum quid, and by good warrant make it none at al: As for that which is saide of the Trinity, I aske whether the Deuil doe not also beleeue the Trinitie, for in the trinitie I am sure non of them both beleeue: I haue heard that Demones credunt et contre­miscunt: Then if this be a good argument, the Papist is better then the Turke because he holdes the Trinytie: Then say I, The Diuell is likewise better then the Turke because he holdes the Trinitie: There is only this diffe­rence, that the papist or the Turke may be a conuert and dye penitent, so can nor the Deuil, but then say I stil he is no longer either Turke or papist: By this you may see that it is not then hauing bare reading or cof­fering vp of the scriptures, Lordes prayer, Articles of the faith, &c. Nor the naming, picturing or spelling of the Trinitie, but the sound profession of these holy things, according to the rule of Gods word that doth make the Church.

And me thinks (if a man consider of it well,) that which is aleaged before of M. Fulke against Stapleton, shoulde so cut the face of these poore prerogatiues brought in for defence of this Church Secundun quid, that they shoulde neuer peepe out of doores againe, in any printed record without blushing, shal I repeat it to you againe? Ispeeces of truth (saith he) might be sufficient to make them the Church of Christ, many here­tikes Contra. Sia­ple. pag. 35. might chalenge the Church which confessed & prac­tised a number of more truthes then they, & doe erre but [Page 115] in one article, as the Arians, Pelagians, &c. what means M. Some then to tel vs a tale of a Tub, of the Lordes 149 prayer, articles of the faith, Commaundements, and some other good things that are amongst them: when these and a hundreth of these (so longe as they erre as they do in the foundation) can not make them the church? For the papists saith D. Fulke in the place before reci­ted, doe erre in many articles, yea in the whole doctrine of iustification of saith & the worship of God: Therefore Papistrie is not only a Scisme, error and heresie, but an a­postacie: Defection, & Antichristianitie, &c. and then belike it is somewhat more then M. Some in his calme conceite can wel afforde it to be, for it semeth he dare goe noe farther then to An aberration of the Christian 150 Church, and so far you see he dare goe boldely: And is not that wel? For it may be Cardinal Alen with all his troope dare not goe halfe so far: wel for a smale reso­lution of the whole (being as we are so strengthened and confirmed herein by the judgment of D. Fulke) looke what offer the Demonstration of Discipline ma­keth to our Bb. that is their liues to their bishopricks: the very same offer is here presently tendered to M. Some, that vppon notice giuen and leaue obteined of a judicial hearing before her maiestie, and the State, (D. Reynoldes & D. Whitakers being judges) if it doe not appeare by vnauoydable proofes that the popish Church is not only An unsound Church, but no church of God at all, and so by that meanes that M. Some is manifestly overthrowne as wel in this point as in sun­dry others of his tretise, the man that so presents him selfe to this encounter, wil aske no fauor, but willing­ly submit himselfe to such heauye censure & punish­ment, as shalbe thought meete for so rash a disturber of the peace of the Church.

There is yet an other point in your D. booke, that [Page 116] in my conceite his frinds may aswel couer with a cur­teyne as any of the rest, and that is his loose defence of Bare reading and pronouncing the words of th'institu­tion by Dumbe Ministers, M. Penri denying that vn­preaching Ministers doe adde an edifying worde to the E­lement, M. Some wil proue it you shal see. But first you must giue him leaue to warme himselfe a little at the Magistrates fire, for it may be his handes are a colde: And then (when he hath stirred the coales a while for the better conjuring of his aduersarie) you shall see him proue his Anticedent, as I beleeue you haue not seene many Anticedents prooued by a D. of diuinitie in your life. My Anticedent was (saith he) that vnpre­ching Ministers doe ad an edifieng worde to th'Element: very wel, and will you haue this prooued nowe? Then take this with you for a paterne: The summe of Cbristes 98 Sermon in th'institution and administration of the holy Supper is the very same that we vse here in the Church of England: Ergo. vnlesse we will denie the summe of Christs Sermon to be an edifiing worde, we must confesse we haue verbum aedisicans, &c. and what is this els but (as M. Some saith) to proue that Midnight is not high Noone, and yet I haue hearde that with the Antipodes, our midnight is there high noone: Neuerthelesse M. Some (wee thanke him for his cost,) bestoweth aboue 20. lines to prooue this deepe mistery vnto vs, paraphra­sing vpon it full demurely: So that eare he haue done withal I dare lay a good wager he wil make it as cleare as it was before, & that it was cleare enough, That the worde of institution & the summ of Christs Sermon doth edifie, which if Blinde Bartemeus coulde not haue spi­ed, yet I doubt not but his cousin germaine of Sarum (who it may be woulde disdaine to be either his or a better mans inferior in Blindenesse) woulde willingly subscribe vnto it without wresteling. And I muze if on [Page 117] should defende That women, idiots, Sorcerers, & Conju­rers can not ad an edifying worde to th'Element, though they should repeat the words of th'institution a thousand times over. I muze I say, whether M. Some wold refute this euen as he hath don the former, by telling vs that which the very boies that learn their pricksong, could not I trow, be ignorant of, vz. That the summe of Christs Sermon is an edifying word: For who doubts (vnlesse his brains be out) that The word of God is in his own nature an edifying woord? That the Scripture is autopisos, that is of credite in it selfe, & inspired not of man but of God, &c. who doubts of al this? but what of that? Shall we therefore infer that out of a Coniurers mouth it is an edifying worde, or that wheresoeuer els, the worde is wretchedly profaned hand over head, as by a woman at baptism, or by a cursed man of no calling in the con­gregation, there must needs be Edification straight? O but you wil say, M. Some doth not say so, he speaks only of vnpreaching ministers: But I say again he must needs say so whether he wil or no, for the reson that he brin­geth doth point as directly, and conclude as forcibly for sorcerers & conlurers, as for Dumbe Ministers, and therein I pray you be judg your self. The sum of christs Sermon (saith he) is an edifying word, Ergo. The dumbe Ministers repeating the same Sermon doe ad an edifying worde. And why not I pray you by the same proporti­on, Ergo. Women, Ergo. Witches, Ergo. Madmen, Er­go. Idiots repeating the same Sermon, do ad an edifying worde? For if there be no more in the matter but only the wordes of the institution, & the sermon of Christ without regarde had of the calling of the man, and of Gods inuiolable ordinance therin: And M. Penri hol­ding that our dumbe doggs that haue no measure of gifts, are no more capable of the ministery then these, then is it not possible but that M. Some must either (as [Page 118] his vsual delight is) begge the question, or els the con­sequences must be al one in spight of his hart. I know right wel, that a godly man may even then be edified by the worde, when it is most blasphemed by a hellish mouth, and I knowe that a man may be edified some times & stroken with remorse vpon the sight of some horrible murther, as he may also at on of these plaies or Theater Spectacles, as some haue not let to giue out, That they for their parts haue bin more edified by a play then by all this preaching: neuerthelesse I hope no man of sence will say that either murther or blaspheming the worde of God, or the same word wretchedly pro­phaned in a play, is therefore an ordinarie meanes to edifie: And what warrant hath any man to seeke for Edification there where there is noe promise he shall be edefied? Though the worde it selfe be an edefieng word, yet may not the Lord chuse whether it shallbe an edifying word to vs or no, especially when we make noe conscience of repairing thither, where we knowe before hand his holy ordinance is prophaned? Farther it is worth marking, that whereas M. Penri saith, Noe learned man wil deny the Lords prayer rightly saide to be an edefying worde, nowe M. Some as a man that had long fasted, and thereby glad of any thing to releeue his hunger, doth hereuppon all to be thanke him: I thanke you (saith he) for this, and therfore doe conclude against you that the Scripture barely read, and to non o­ther 120 purpose then to edifie, by reading is wholsome doc­trine: for the Lords prayer is part of the holy Scripture: wherein I knowe not well whether M. Penri shoulde doe better to thanke him for his coste, or praise him for his curtesie. Neuerthelesse when the matter shall come to sifting, I feare it wil hardly deserue halfe the Thanks that M. Some bestoweth. For did you neuer heare of a man that tooke post horses to ride north­warde, [Page 119] & yet by wandering all night, founde himselfe within 2. mile of Lambeth in the morning? This was sure M. Some, who making more hast then good speed to ride away with his poore aduantage, is after his long trauel & wandering (as you see) returned home by some night spirit, by meanes whereof he is (if you marke it) as neere his jornies end as when he first set foote in stirrop. Why alasse cannot so greate a Clarke as M. Some is see into these words, Rightly sayed, vnlesse they be written in great text letters or printed in Fo­lio? Or is he nowe to learne that Noe popish Priest as a Priest, Noe Papist as a Papist, Noe Witch as a Witch, did ever say the Lords prayer rightly in his life? What a squinteyed conclusion is this then, to drawe an argu­ment from Rightly saide, to Barely read? As if we were so childish to graunt him that which is Barely reade of a minister in his place & function, were Rightly said, or that the hurrying over the Lords prayer or any o­ther piece of Scripture, either without booke or with­in booke were rightly saide: that is to say, that the word prophaned contrary to the holy ordinance and insti­tution of Christ were wholsome doctrine. But howe shal we doe nowe? M. Some hath yet spied out an o­ther blasphemie, an other strange pointe of diuinitie, and what is that? Forsooth The worde of God vttered, is not an edifying worde, vnlesse it be vttered according to th'ordinance, both in regarde of the persons that vttered the same, and the ende wherefore it is vttered: where­vppon he questioneth with his adversarie in this man­ner: Is not this M. Penri to make the person to giue cre­dite to the holy word of God? which position is very grosso 120 & blasphemons. We answere in M. Penries behalfe, no in deede is it not: First it is cleare M. Penri speaketh here (as he doth in the whole course of his booke) of that which is ordinary & not extraordinary: For what [Page 120] haue we to doe nowe with miracles or extraordinary revelatious: Or (as I saide before) if any man be edifi­ed by a Play, by a Murther, by Blaspheming or propha­ning of the worde of God, what haue wee to doe with that? This being set downe then as a thing cleare and out of question that M. Penri speaketh onlye of that which is ordinarie, we answere that his assertion stan­deth firme and inviolable against M. Some and all the wrangling spirits in the world, vz. That the worde vt­tered is not an edefying word, vnlesse it be vttered accor­ding to the ordinance both in regarde of the persons, &c. neither is this at all To make the person giue credite to the holy word, noe more then we say that the bread & wine prepared for the Lords table, can be no sacramét vnlesse he be a minister that deliuers it. Is this to make the sacrament depend vpon the person, or the person to giue credit to the sacrament? I think not, no more is it of the word. And who seeth not that when he spea­keth here of the persons, he meaneth not (as M. Some wold seem to enforce) of the dignity or worthines of the persons, or barely of the persons themselues as they be of men (for that were too childishe) but onely of the Calling and office of the parsons, whiche being the holy ordinance of God prescribed in the worde, what incongruitie or absurdity is it, for the Lord to restrane th'ordinarie blessing of edification to his owne ordi­nance, as if he should say, My word is in deed the worde of life, neuertheles if any man abuse it, or profane it, if a­ny man presume to deale withall, that hath no calling or warrant therevnto, let him neuer looke that I will bloue vpon it with my spirit. And who dare saye that there is or can be edification, where the Lorde breatheth not with his spirit? Therefore let M. Some say what he wil, there can be neither error nor heresy to make not the person, but the holy calling of the person, that is, the [Page 121] Lords owne ordinance to giue a majesty & credite to his owne worde, which in trueth is nothing els, but to make the very word giue a credite to the word, and so it is Autopisos still. Now for his maner of writing, I rest euen of the same judgment I was, when the book came first into my hands: you know what I then told you vpon the first taste of it, & I dare warrant you, you shall finde it to be true: for he is all in his short cuts & questions like prety apothegs. What say you to 40. ful points in 50. lines, to 30. ful points, in 33. lines, to 6. ful points in 4. lines, to 4. ful points in 3. lines? Nay in one place, about the pa. 76. as I remēber, he hath more full points then lines: yen & in that space that Iohn a Brid­ges hath one period, I dare be bound M. Some hath 50 or vpward. And is not that sententiously written? Nay farther, let his whol book be wel viewed, I meane his last book which of it self, is not much aboue 40. leaues & that in a large letter, such as consumeth a great deal of paper in a little matter, & I dare vndertake you shal finde aboue 1500. full points. So that whereas in one place he telleth his aduersary, that vnles it be granted him, that vnpreaching ministers haue no calling, he is at a 118 ful point: his aduersary may now justly reply vpō him, vnles the contrary be graunted him, he is at a 1000. ful points. And I pray you tel me, are not his lungs in gret danger thinke you, that he is so short winded that he can scarce tie 2. propositiōs togither in mood & figure I promise you for mine owne part I am halfe afraid of him, if he look not to himself in time. Wel, I could tel M. Some a notable receipt for this shortnes of breath, if he woulde be ruled by me. Firste he must crosse the Thames no more towards Lambeth, for the moistues of the air so nere the water side is very dangerous: hē the closenes of London streats is perilous for the stop ping of his pipes: more, the great fare & entertainmēt [Page 122] about the court & at Bb. houses, may breede in time a Lethergie: therfore his only way (if he loue his helth) must be to get him into the country in th'open aire, & to make his onely residence & ordinary aboade vpon Gyrton benefice, shaking of all other appendixes and hangbies whatsoeuer, & euen there in loue and consi­ence to take pains with his poore parishuers, aswel by publike teaching & catechising of them, as by priuate admonishment & familiar conferences, seeking to win them by all other good & godly means that the Lord hath prescribed in his word. And let him ask M. Gren­ham whether this be not an excelent medicine for the shortnes of the breath, I warrant you he hath tried it, and hath found good of it, for he hath winde at wil ye see, & as shril pipes as most men. Nowe M. Some may chuse he hath my direction for nothing, & if I might see his water I might happen tell him more. I knowe there be other paltry practicioners in Phisike that wil aduise him otherwise, but let him take it of my word, it wil not be so good for him in the end. For it is sure this short windinesse and nothing els that makes him thus in a kinde of kingly maner with so many vncon­trollable periods to debate with vs: I agree with you in this: I dissent from you in this: strange sansies haue almost consumed you: your reuerence I make very base account of: I thinke great scorne I tell you, to be one of ignorant Penries disciples, &c. Sure your D. perswadeth him­selfe I beleeue, that looke what he saith it is a statute straght, otherwise he woulde neuer come vppon his poore aduersary in this jumping manner. Wel for all that if he can make shift with all the skill he hath to fetch a jump frō his benefice at Girton to some sweet Deanry or Bishopricke, it wil sure be one of the preti­est jumps that euer he made in his life. There be of his betters that haue made such Alemaine leapes in their [Page 123] dayes, and thereby may the better direct him the way if neede be, how thinke you by these jumps. From Pe­ter house to Penbrooke hall, from thence to Trinitie Col­ledge, from thence to Lincolne, from Lincolne to Worce­ster, from Worcester you knowe whither. But were not these vengeable steps? Wel let your D. looke to it, for I haue knowne a man bursten in my daies, with fetch­ing such strides. And this I feare me is the blessinge that he so often harpeth vpon as wel in his preface as in his booke: It pleased God (saith he) to assist me gra­ciously preface in my paines I haue taken: I thanke his maiestie very humbly for it: And I doubt not but he will giue a­blessing vnto it. And againe in an other place, I was de­sired 177 (saith he) to prouide a plaster, I did so, and God hath giuen a blessing to it. And yet againe, I doubt not but that blessing which god hath giuen already to my last tre­tise, & which his maiestie wil giue to this, wil marre your market. And last of all he closeth vp the mouth of all with this: My comforte is that almightie God will blesse 198 this labor. But you may tel M. Some when you see him that I haue hearde of a man whoe dreaming of golde overnight, had but an ilfauored mishap in the morn­ning: These hasty promises of golden mountaines had neeede wee suppose haue better grounds, then these dreaming conceipts and fansies of men: For vnlesse it be some such blessing as I spake of before, namly some hope or promise of promotion, (which is not so pri­uiledged neither but that it may end in bitternesse) I durst me thinks in this case stand betwixt M. D. and the danger of any other greate blessing that may befall him. As to those high wordes of his, that he thinketh soule scorne to be one of ignorant Penries disciples, &c. Considering howe rightly it sorteth with the rest of his rhetoricke, it can neither bring any grace to him▪ selfe, nor disgrace to his aduersatie. Alasse it doeth but [Page 124] lay open the rottennesse and corruption of his harte, being very far from that spirit that teacheth, Let the greatest among you be as the least, &c. It is wel enough knowne that there be M. Somes betters, I meane in Luke. 22. 26. learning and judgment, that wil not refuse even in the feare of God to learne somtimes of far meaner men in gifts then ever M. Penri was, whome howe the Lord hath blessed in plentiful measure that way, his aduersa­ries themselues haue bin forced to acknowledge: but I woulde you would aske M. Some when you see him, where was Humile peccatum, when he did thus treade vpon his aduersarie with a disdainfull foote. Well to correct this bad humor of his, you may doe wel to re­ferre him to Apollos in the 18. of th' Act. who though he were an eloquent man & mightie in the Scripture, in­formed in the way of the Lord, and seruent in the spirit, yet saith the text, did he not disdaine to learne of A­quila & Priscilla, who expounded vnto him the way of God perfectly, wherevpon our Bb. owne note in the margent is this, which we presume M. Some will giue eare vnto with reuerence: Apollo (say they) being a learned man was not ashamed to be taught & instruc­ted in the doctrine of Christ, of a poore crafts man & his wise, what great disparagement then coulde it be for such a man as M. Some is, were he as great as an Archb. or a Cardinal, to learne some small trifling things of of a poorer and meaner student, because he knoweth that the Lord somtimes chooseth the weake thinges of the world to confound the wise. And therefore he that shoulde wish your D. lesse learning & more mo­destie, shoulde I suppose wish him no hurt. Thus haue you my verdicte because you requested it: I confesse I haue bin too longe, but it is my falt, wherein as in any thinge els, I am very wel content you shal censure me as you please.