OR, A True Relation of the Protestant Conference and Popish Difference.

A Iustification of the one, and Refutation of the other.

  • In matter of
    • FACT.
    • FAITH.

By DANIEL FEATLY, Doctor in Diuinity.

Theodoret. Dial. 2. Cap. 24. [...]. Orthodox. Thou art caught in thine owne Net.

LONDON, Printed by H. L. for Robert Milbourne, and are to bee sold at the great South-dore of Pauls. 1624.

TO THE MOST Reuerend Father in God, the Lrd Arch-Bishop of Canterbury his Grace, Primate and Metrapolitane of all Eng­land, &c. my very good Lord.

May it please your Grace:

I Haue euer, as much as lay in mee, declined, and earnestly conten­ded against all con­tentions, and publick Conferences in poynt of Religion, with Romish Priests, and Iesuites. For, Pope­rie (as I haue oft learned from your Grace) is a doctrine of lyes; and as it maintaineth [Page] lyes, so it can be maintained by no better support, then of lyes. In all conflicts with men of that faction, though their re­doubted wrastlers, in grappling with our Diuines, are put to the worst, yet (like Pericles in the Theatre) bee they indeed neuer so much foyled, they will go about, by their eloquence, to perswade the Spec­tators, that they receiued not, but gaue the foyle. And as Lysimachus, when he re­ceiued a sore wound from Alexander in his fore-head, had it presently bound vp, and couered with a glorious Diademe: so when any of their side are wounded sore­ly in any skirmish with vs, their fellowes presently binde it vp, and couer it with a Crowne of a surmised victorie. I well knew, and foretold the Pitcher of the field, that whatsoeuer the issue of the combate were, Master Deane of Carlile and my selfe, should be notwithstanding conquered in effigie, and led in triumph in many a Pageant at Doway, Bruxels, Rhemes, and Rome, as since we haue seene in Letters, and gazettaes from beyond the Seas. Omnia praecepi, atque animo mecum [Page] antè peregi. Yet knowing that truth is strong in her weakest, and falshood is weake in her strongest Champions; and being vrgently desired by the friends, and personally challenged by the enemies of our most holy Faith, to appeare as a Se­cond in her sacred & iust quarrel, malui in illo praesertim legum et iustitiae publicae iustitio Iesuitas fractos, quàm despectos dimittere: I chose in that high floate of the Iesuites pride and hopes, rather by an encounter to represse their insolencie, then by a re­fusall increase their arrogancie. Neither was the diuine Assistance and benedicti­on wanting at the Conference, nor since: for by it the old Gentleman (whose in­tended satisfaction drew on this mee­ting) was settled (as himselfe vnder his hand twice professed) and resolued in that point, which before left a scruple in his conscience. And by occasion of this Dispute, the Chronicles of the Reformed Churches haue beene better searched into, and some most vsefull Relations and Treatises touching the Visibility of the Church, [Page] brought to light, and more publick view then before. And, albeit his Maiesty, vp­on the first noise and mis-report of this disputation, seemed to distast it, yet when the whole truth of that which passed that day, together with the occasion and issue thereof, appeared to his Maiesty in its natiue hiew; the former cloud, which threatned a bitter showre, was by your Graces fauourable breath, suddenly blowne ouer: and then the true Relati­on of that Conference, finding the skie cleere, stole wings to, and from the presse, and flew freely abroad, euery where checking and controuling the Iesuits false Relations, and plucking from their heads those Lawrell garlands, wherewith they had crowned their temples, for their owne noble exployts that day. It could not bee expected, that this printed Relati­on should haue beene otherwise entertai­ned by Master Fisher and Master Sweet (the Popish Combatants), then it was; who, after a month or two, set vpon it in print, and dealt with it, as the wife of Anthony did with Tullies Because it truly wounded her husband. tongue, after his [Page] death: they thrust it thorow and thorow with needles, and stabbed it againe and againe with their poysoned pens; the one writing an answer to it; the other, a censure of it. To both these Pamphlets, this Reply is addressed. In the former part, Master Fishers Answer to the Fisher catched in his owne Net, is censured: in the latter, Master Sweet's Censure is answered. And because opposita iuxta se posita, magis eluces­cunt, I haue printed Master Fisher's Text with my Reply thereunto, vt dum haere­tici hominis venena lector cognoscit, libentiùs orthodoxi bibat antidotum. If any thing be omitted, the occasion and reason of the omission is not omitted. Had I set down all the Iesuites battologies, ‘Idem delicti fierem reprehensor et author.’

Whatsoeuer I haue done heerein, I sub­mit to your Graces censure and fauoura­ble construction thereof. I acknowledge, it is not a worthy present for your Grace: yet because it is [...]. my first fruits in this kinde, it of right belongeth to the high Priest; the rather, because the growth of it was vpon your sacred gleabe. The [Page] Stork, which alwaies leaues one of her young ones in the house where shee breeds, for the Owner thereof, teacheth mee this poynt of gratitude, to offer that to your Grace, which was bred vnder your Graces roofe; ‘Siue legas, quo dabo siue tegas.’

Did not these, and many other priuate respects, challenge this dedication to your Grace: yet the sweet influence which your Graces gouernment continually di­stilleth vpon Gods Inheritance, among vs, would cause from any heart and pen not barren, the returne of some sweet spira­tion of praises to God, and thanksgiuing to your Grace for your incessant trauels in Gods cause. The costly oyntment, which on Palme-Sunday last flowed abundant­ly from your lips, so cheered vp and re­uiued that numberlesse Auditory, that your Graces Name is as a most fragrant oyntment, sending foorth a most sweet sauour through the whole Kingdome. What should I speake of the most hap­pie and ioyfull newes of our thrice-noble Prince's returne out of Spaine: whereof [Page] your Grace was the first siluer Trumpet to the City? And (God bee blessed for it) the Trumpet gaue not an vncertaine sound. Those glorious night-Tapours which were set so thick together in the streets, that they made a kinde of Galaxia in the City, were all kindled early in the mor­ning at your Graces sacred Lamp. Sicut Marcelli praelio ad Nolam, saith the Orator, populus Romanus primò se erexit, posteà mul­taeres prosperae consequutae sunt. As the Ro­man State, after many disasters, first began to cheere vp againe at Marcellus his victo­ry at Nola, and afterwards much good fortune followed: so, after much sorrow and more feare, the happy Returne of our Prince first cheered vp our drooping spi­rits; and, after that, many happie things haue followed: whereof, vnder his Ma­iestie, your Grace haue been, and are, toge­ther with your noble Associates in this high Court of Parliament, the principall Instruments. Ride on, in the Lords march prosperously, with your honour, because of truth and righteousnesse, and your right hands shall teach your terrible things; terrible [Page] things to the Whore of Babylon, but com­fortable to Christs afflicted Spouse. The good will of him who dwelt in the bush, make your Aarons Rod to flourish more and more, to the glory of his Name, ad­uancement of the Truth, honour of the Priest-hood, and your owne endlesse ioy and comfort. This we all of the Tribe of Leui are bound to pray for in generall, and I my selfe more specially, as beeing

Your Graces most humbly-deuoted Chaplaine in house, and seruant, DANIEL FEATLY.

The Preface to the Protestants Relation of the Conference, IVNE 27. 1623.

BEing commanded by my Lord his Grace of Canterbury, from his Maiesty, to certifie the truth of that which passed in a late con­ference, in point of Religion, at Sir Hum­frey Linde's house in Sheer-Lane, in London: we, who were present at the Conference, partly, out of the fresh memory of such passages as we then obserued; but especially, by help of such Notes as were taken in the Conference it self, subscribed by both the Disputants, drew vp, within a week after, as perfect a Relation of the substance thereof, as we could: wherein as we added nothing to the aduantage or preiudice of either party; so wee omitted nothing of moment, in the Current of the Arguments and Answers. As for some interlocutory speeches of the right honourable the Earl of Warwick, who diuers times seasonably interposed, and, when the Disputants or standers-by grew into any heat or distem­per, discreetly tempered both sides, ‘Ille regit dictis animos, & pectora mulcet.’ —those passages we inser­ted not into our narration, because, the Earle beeing not then in London, we held it incongruous, without his [Page] Honours knowledge, to vse his name to the King. For other omissions, the Iesuites are beholding vnto vs: for, they were in fauour of them; wee beeing loth to bee vn­gues in vlcere, to bee thought to rub too hard vpon a gawle, but rather desirous to carry the whole Relation as fairly and passably as might be.2. Cor. 12. 13. We had thought, the Ie­suites would haue pardoned vs this wrong.

After this originall Draught was by vs tendered to his Grace of Canterbury, and by his Grace deliuered to the Kings Maiesty, some Copie (as we vnderstand) was taken, for the satisfaction of a Person of quality: which, passing from one to another, in the end fell into the hands of some Stationers; who, without licence or knowledge of those whom it most concerned, committed it to the Presse, de questu magis, quàm quaestione soliciti. And the better to vent this new wine, they set a faire Garland before the dore, intituling it, The FISHER caught in his owne Net. Which Title was not deuised nor prefixed by any of vs: we willingly leaue the vanity of such affected inscriptions to our Ad­uersaries, who make themselues ridiculous in this kinde. One intituleth his Answer to D. White, WHITE dyed black. Another cals his woodden Pamphlet, The Gag of the new Religion, or of the refor­med Gospell. Another, his Reply to M. BELL, Cecidit BELL, The dolefull knell of THO­MAS BELL. This is not the sound of AARON'S golden Bell; but rather of the tinkling Cymball mentioned by Saint PAVL, 1. Cor. 13. Fancies and Iigs make no good Church-musick.

Nobis non licet esse tam disertis,
Qui Musas colimus sacratiores.

[Page] For the Title therefore, wee approoue it not: but for the Conference it selfe, it containeth nothing but the truth, whatsoeuer the Aduersaries giue out to the con­trary, who (as it seemeth) hold it a work of supererogati­on, to forge and coyne signall and transcendent Leasings for the Catholick Cause; for, although the Iesuites, at this Conference, were often vncertaine, and al­waies very slow and tardy in their Answers, and (in fine) answered nothing, but that they would not answer Doctor FEATLY his instance in CHRIST and his Apostles; yet haue they or their Schollers proclaimed in Gath, and published in Ascalon, such a victory as neuer was heard; much like the wonderfull con­iunction of the superior Planets, which was ne­ [...]er seene.

About a weeke after the Conference, the noble Earle of Warwick, who had bin present at it, hauing occasion to passe ouer the Seas, and comming to Saint Omers, had the Company of Doctor Weston at his Inne; to whom this Doctor (taking the Earle for a Romane Ca­tholick) told for fresh and most happy newes out of Eng­land, that at a Conference betweene Father FISHER and SVVEET, Iesuites, and two Protestant Ministers, in London, the Iesuites had quitted themselues so well, and the Catholique faith preuailed so farre, that two Earles, and an hundred other of the Auditory were gayned to the Church of Rome by this Incounter: of these two Earles, the party to whom hee spake, was one, who could not but smile at this Relation.

Risit Atlantiades; et me mihi, perfide, prodis,
Me mihi prodis, ait?

A pretty Comick Scene, where the Spectator is made an Actor, and a false person put vpon him to his face: a renowned and constant Protestant, borne downe to be a Romish Proselyte. As for the reuolt of the other Earle, and pretended Centurie of Protestant Romane Conuerts, we beleeue it as firmely, as thatVitae Sanct. Brigittae. Vitae S. Aldelmi. S. BRIGET laid her Wimple, and Saint ALDELME his Chesible vpon a beame of the Sunne, which supported them. That Saint NICOLAS, Festivale de Sancto Nicolao. while hee lay in his cradle, fasted Wednesday and Fryday; these daies hee would not suck, but once in the day. ThatLegend. de Sancto Patricio. Saint PATRICK caused a stolne sheep to bleate in the belly of him that had eaten it. That the corps ofLegend. de Sancto Stephan. S. LAVRENCE, at the coming of Saint STEPHENS body, smiled for ioy, and tur­ned it selfe to the other side of the Sepulcher, to make roome for him;Ep. Clem. ad Iac. in Ep. Pontif. that CLEMENS wrote a Letter to Saint IAMES the brother of our Lord, seuen yeeres after hee was dead; thatVide Breu. & picturas Dionys. vel interrog. Paris [...]enses. Saint DENNIS carried his head in his hand three miles, and rested at each place of the posts, that are set betweene Paris and Saint Den­nis; thatLegend. de Dunst. & picturae pass [...]. Saint DVNSTONE held the diuell fast by the nose with a paire of tongues; that theHist [...]ire de N [...]stre Dame de L [...]retto. chamber of our Lady was carried by Angels through the Ayre, from Palestine to Loretto, in Italy; Annot. in Clemanges ex Caesario. that our Lady helped Saint THOMAS BECKET to mend or stitch his hayre-cloth;Legend. de [...]. Cant. that a Parrat crying out, Saint THOMAS help me, was deliuered from an Hawk; Legend. de L [...]p [...].that Saint LVPVS shut vp the diuell in a tankard all night; thatLegend. de [...]. vid. M [...]l [...]h. [...]. Theol. Saint DOMINICK made the Diuell [Page] hold the candle to him till hee burnt his fingers; that Vitae Fran­cisci.Saint FRANCIS swallowed a Spider in a Chalice which Spider came whole out of his thigh; that the Cheney Mar­tyr Carthus.Image of the Crucifix turnd tayle to GREGORY the Monke, when hee went from the Vespers, to walk in the Chapter- house; thatSedul. Fran­cisc. Fryer ANDREVV, to correct his appetite of eating birds at the Table, by the signe of the Crosse, commanded them to fly away after they were rosted;Author of the Relation of the Western Religion. that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes, that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell;Vitae Iu [...]j. that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe;Beza redi­uiuus. that BEZA recanted his religion before his death;My Lord of Londons Le­gacie. that the reuerend Doctor KING, late Bishop of London, died a Papist; or,Interroga vicin [...] de re iam recenti. that the Protestants at Black- [...]ryers, by knocking certaine pins out of the tim­ber, caused that late & lamentable fall of the floar: wher­in about 200 Papists were assembled, and neere a 100 slaine. They who teach pious frauds, and write of holy hypocrisy, and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation, may securely report, whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause. The more incredible and palpable the Lie is, the more merit in him that maketh it, and in them that beleeue it. Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies: and Philosophy teacheth, that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made. The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth: and verily as hee said in the Poet, Si ius violandum est, Regni causa violandum, if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice, he must doeit for a King­dome: [Page] so it is like they are resolued, if a man must lye, certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Re­ligion; and if lie in so good a cause, lye to some pur­pose.

The first report concerning the issue of this Confe­rence, was of a silly woman, said to be present, and con­uerted thereby to the Romish faith, who forsooth stam­ped vpon her English Bible, and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it; protesting, she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more. But, alas! this was but a silly lye, made by some p [...]isne [...]ouice of the petty forme, to see how a lye in this kinde would take. The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole, thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vni­uersall lye for the Catholick cause, by giuing out, that the whole company of Protestants present at that Con­ference, was gayned to the Romish faith, yea, and many more Protestants then were there also for 100, some say, 400▪ is the summe of the supposed Conuerts; whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference; and (as wee conceiue) neere 20. were professed Papists, and knowne Recusants: and for the rest, which were Noble-men, Gentle-men, and Gentle-women of quality, with some few Diuines, there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting; but on the contrary, they haue openly pro­fest, that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it: and Master BVGGES himselfe, (whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended) who before had doubted of our Church, after this Disputation, pro­fesseth [Page] himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God: to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity.

As for those, who contrary to the euidence of truth, and so many testimonies beyond all exception, are yet re­solued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause; the Iesuites, wee say, who maintaine, that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne, so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation: vpon such as stand thus affected, wee bestow the blessing ofAugust. Thuan. ad An. 1556. Carama­lis Caraffa Lu­tetiam Regni Metropol [...]m in­greditur, solitâ pompâ, tanquam Pontificis Lega­tus; vbi cùm signum Crucis, vt fit, ederet, verborum, quae proferri mos est, loco, ferunt eum vt erat securus de numme animo, & summus Re­ligionum derisor occursante pas­sim populo, in genua procūben­te, saepiùs secretâ murmuratione haec verba inge­minâsse: Quan­doquidem, &c. Car­dinall CARAFFA: who, when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him, (beeing ari­ued at Paris, comming as Legate from the Pope), lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen, and making▪ ac­cording to the manner, crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction, blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words: Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi, decipiatur: If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued (with such shewes and fopperies), let them be gulled or deceiued.


  • THe occasion, and issue, of the late Confe­rence had▪ Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White, Deane of Carlile, and Doctor Featly, with Master Fisher, and Master Sweet Iesuites. Page 1.
  • A Relation of what passed in the said Con­ference, touching the Visibility of the Church, page 6.
  • Additions to the former Relation of the Con­ference, page 29.
  • An Attestation, concerning some particulars, set downe in the said Relation, entituled, The Fisher catched in his owne Net, page 38.
  • A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly, to his worthy friend, Sir Humfrey Lynde, touching the former Conference held at his house: wherein is maintained, that,
  • [Page] 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are law­full, and vsefull, and therfore to be iustified.
  • 2 The Method also vsed in the former Con­ference, maintained and iustified.
  • 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference, were direct, not diuersiue. H*
  • A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Que­stions, which were pro­pounded by the Iesuite;
    • by
      • Distinctions.
      • Assertions.
  • 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible? L1.
  • 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee na­med in all Ages? O2.
  • A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference, (R3.) wherin Rules are pre­scribed for Disputations: and it is prooued and confirmed, that,
  • 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies. S1.
  • 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages, yet their Names not now ex­tant. S3.
  • 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages. T1.
  • A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference: wherein is shewed, that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Ma­ster Fisher. T3.
  • An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke, masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3.
  • [Page] An Answer to the Preface thereof. V 4.
  • A Table of the principall matters contained in the same, which are reduced vnto fiue heads, viz.
  • 1 Vntruths.
  • 2 Contradictions.
  • 3 Idle obseruations, and exceptions.
  • 4 Impertinences, or mal' à proposes.
  • 5 Vaine repetitions. Y 3.
  • A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation, touching the occasion of the Conference, page 37.
  • The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde, touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation, about the occasion and issue of the Confe­rence, excepted against by the Iesuite, p. 39.
  • A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer, or, the de­fence of the Protestant Relation, diuided into Paragraphs.
  • Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Con­ference, page 45.
  • 2 Of the state of the Question, page 49.
  • 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Dis­putants, page 52.
  • 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church, for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ, page 54.
  • 5 Concerning the parts of the Question, page 59.
  • 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Pro­testants in all Ages, page 63.
  • [Page] 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Poste­riori, page 74.
  • 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church, by the eternity and immutability of faith, page 88.
  • 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113.
  • 10 Of the Induction, & breaking vp of the Conference, p. 119.
  • 11 Of the issue of the Conference, page 129.
  • A Copie of M. Fisher's Letter to the Earle of Warwick. p. 139.
  • An Answer vnto the same by D. Featly, page 142.
  • A Copie of a Letter from the Earle of Warwick, to Sir Hum­frey Lynde, page 146.
  • Master Fisher's Reflection vpon the Conference, with the Answer of Doctor Featly, page 147. Wherein
  • 1 A testimony out of Luther, alledged to proue the inuisibi­lity of the Protestants Church, is answered, page 150.
  • 2 Luther's testimony of VVesselus, page 152.
  • 3 Of the VValdenses, page 154.
  • 4 Of Hus, 157.
  • 5 A testimony out of Conrad. Schlusenburg, is answer'd, p. 160.
  • 6 A testimony out of Benedictus Morgenst, answered, p. 164.
  • 7 A testimony out of Caluin, is answered, page 167.
  • 8 Caluins testimony of the Waldenses, is produced, p. 168.
  • 9 A testimony out of Bucer, is answered, page 169.
  • 10 In what sense Luther may be termed the first Apostle of the Reformed Churches, is declared, page 170.
  • 11 An allegation out of Beza, answered, page 171.
  • 12 An Allegation out of Perkins, answered, page 173.
  • 13 An Allegation out of Bishop Iewell, answered, page 174.
  • 14 The Conclusion, page 178.

To the courteous Reader.

I Intreat thee, courteous Reader, to vnderstand, that the greater part of this book was printed in the time of the great Frost; when, by reason that the Thames was shut vp, I could not conueniently procure the proofs to be brought vnto mee, before they were wrought off: whereupon it fell out, that very many grosse escapes passed the Presse, and (which was the worst fault of all) the third part of the book is left vnpaged. This defect I finde no other means to remedy for the present, than to referre thee to the letters of the Printers Alphabet, set vnder the Page. Thus therefore, I pray thee, correct the Errata following.

Faults escaped.

In the Conference, page 6. line 9. for demanded, r. and demanded. p. 7. l. 7. four, r. your. In the Additions, p. 27. l. 29. f. I should, r should I. p. 30. l. 29. f. author, r. aduersary. In the Attestation, p. 36. l. 8. f. prepetua, r. perpetua. In the Remonstrance, H 2 * for ap­probation, r. a good answer. H 4 * l. 4. f. [...], r. [...]. b. l 23. f. [...], r. [...]. K * l. 9 f. [...]. r. [...]. line 14. f. of Church, r. of the Church. l. 15. f. thing, r. Chius. K 2 * In mar. f. quibus, r. quidam. f. falsa, r. falsum. l. penult. dele the. K 3 * b l. 7. f. Vovius, r. Voions. l. 9. Wolfius, r. Walfius. l. 10. f. Moustre a Vortley, r. Munster a Vortlegue. K * b l. penult. in marg. f. de praescrip. r. Tert. de praescrip. K 4 b l. 14. f. Partus, r. Paetus. Quest. 1. touching the visibility of the Church, L 3 * l. 5. f. [...], r. [...]. L 3 l. 10. f. Becherites, r. Bezerites. l 12. f. Luiddamites, r. Quiddamites M * b l. 21. dele into. M 2 l. 28. f. eternally, r. externally. M 4 in marg. f. obsconditur & obsoluens, r. absconditur & absoluens. M 2 b l. 19. f sweet fish & rotten, r good & bad. N * a l. 17. f. Margaerites, r. pearles. N * b l 28. f. a firmer, r. the former. O * l. 17. f. Lyra­nensis, r. Lirmensis. O 2 b l. 5. f Barradus, r. Barradius. Quest. 2. touching the names of vi­sible Protestants, P 3 a in marg. f. lenone, r. lenones. Q 1 b in marg. f. Caluini, r. calicis. Q 2 a l. 9. f sect. r. track. Q 3 l. 18. f. leaue, r. leuie. l. 23. f. Epistolae, r. Epistolis. Q 3 b adde in marg ad Occham & Platin ex Wolf. pröoem. Q 4 b adde in marg. The fixt as­sertien. R 1 l. 26. f. this, r. then. R 1 b l. 18 f. [...], r. [...]. R 1 in marg. f. excusseront, r. exusserunt. S 1 l. 28. f. forceth, r. forteth. S 2 b l. 23. dele of. T 1 b l. 22. f. voculae, r. voculas. T 2 b l. 9. f. quum. r. qum. T 3 in marg. f. [...], r. [...]. T 3 b l. 3. f. Athanaeus, r. Athenaeus. T 4 l. 8. f. distinguish, r. to distinguish. V 1 l. 13. Corrige accentos ita, [...]. V 1 l. 20. f. [...], r. [...]. Pone in mar. Odys [...]. 3 In the reply, page 1. line 1. adde M. Fisher. p. 1. l 10. superpone D. Featly. p. 5. l. 25. f. [...], r. [...]. l 26. f. [...]. l. 27. f. [...], r. [...]. p. 7. l. 9. for conifictiou, r. confiction. p. 11. l. 2. f. you r. yours. p. 12. l. 2. f. m, r. on. p. 22. l. 13. f signal, r. sig­nall. p. 32 l. 14 f. predicants, r. predicaments. p. 44. l. 6. f. be, r. but. p. 48. l. 21. f. of, r. Of. p. 51. l. 11. f. particula entirer, r. particular entire. p. 63. l. 8. f. Elohim, reade barah Elohim. p. 79. l. 10. f. metriculated, r matriculated. p. 83. l. 15. f. who keep, r. they who keep. p. 92. l. 8. f. namely fir, r. in Si [...]. In marg. adde Viues de causis corrupt. art. l. 3. l. 16. f. Ceres, r. Seres. l. 17. f. Riphean, r Rhiphean. l. 24. f. [...], r. [...]. adde in marg. Arist. analit post. l. 1. c. 4. p. 101. l. 32. dele and. p. 103. l. 1. f. in error, r. obstinate in error. p. 104. l. 11. for [...], r. [...]. p. 108 l. 23. dele he can. p. 110 l. 11. f. Eleaetes, r. the Eleaetes. page 149. l. 4 f [...], r. [...]. p. 150 l 1. f. [...], r. [...]. l. 2. f. [...], r. [...]. l. 29. f. a­deo, r. à Deo. et adde in mar. extat et al [...] ad Argen ep. in tract. Histo de coen. dom. Casp. Peut. Ambergae. an. 1596. vbineque habentur haec ve ba. p. 152. l. 10. adde in marg. quia & lux mundi vulgò dictus, in script opuse. p. 154. l. 9. f. habent, r. habeant. p. l. 162. l. 12. f. exet. r. expetend. p. 163. l. 21. f. Bishop, r. Bishops. p. 172. l. 11. f. [...], r. [...].

A REMONSTRANCE sent in a letter, by Doctor Featly, to his worthy Friend Sir Humfrey Lynde, touching the former confe­rence held at his house, Iune 27. 1623.

PLiny writeth of one of the Ro­man Emperours,Natural. hist. l. 36. c. 5. that he vsed to behold the Fensers (play­ing their prizes before him) in the reflection of an Emerald: Gladiatorum pugnas specta­bat Smaraegdo. which so re­freshed his eye with the verdure thereof, that though the Obiect were not very acceptable alwaies, and pleasing to him; yet the viewing it in that precious reflec­ting Gemme was very delightfull. Such a precious Emerald is the heart & affecti­on [Page] on of a true friend, which represents, with delight and content, those things concerning our selues and others, which otherwise of themselues may bee irk­some and grieuous vnto vs. I must con­fesse, your Letter touching our confe­rence at your house, had many Pils wrapt vp in it: yet were they so sugred with your loue, and gilded with your elo­quence, that I easily and pleasantly swal­lowed them down. It grieueth you much, that our pains in the conference (which took the good effect you desired) should bee no better accepted and interpreted, then they are by some, as is reported. The Romane Senate gaue publike thanks to Terentius Varro, for encountring Hannibal at Can­nae, though with the losse of their [...] Army. But it falleth out contrary, say you; in this encounter. In which though the truth lost nothing, but gained him, whose satis­faction was by it intended, & strengthened also many others; yet you adde, that you find some of our profession more ready to except against, then approve the procee­dings in this combat. I maruell not at it. [Page] For, Saint Ierome, after hee had vndergon an encounter in poynt of faith, was taxed by some friends to the truth, for not ma­naging that fight so well as they wished. Ierom. Apol. ad Pamachiū.To whom that accomplished Doctor of the Church, returneth this smart An­swer: Delicata doctrina est pugnanti ictus dictare de muro; et cum ipse vnguentis deli­butus sis, cruentū militem accusare formidi­nis: It is an easie and sweet kind of teaching, for a man that is safe himselfe, and free from danger of blowes, from a high wall to dictate strokes, & poynt out to a souldier in the Field, where he should smite his aduersarie. If those, who are so confident of their owne strength aud skill, had been on the place, and engaged in the fight, peraduenture it may bee doubted, what great trophies they would haue erected of their victorie ouer these Combatants. Howsoeuer, for my part, I neuer held that Lacedaemo­nian KingEras. Apoph. ouerwise, who, hauing re­ceiued good approbation frō Iupiter, was not content therewith, but sendeth to Apollo, to knowe whether hee were of the same iudgement. I rest vpon the gra­cious [Page] interpretatiō of his Maiesty, & their approbatō, who vnder him are the chiefe Leaders in the Lords Battels. For others, I put them to their choyce, AutHieron. Apol. ad P [...] ­mach. cap. 8.proferant meliores epulas, et me conuiua vtantur, aut qualicun (que) caerula nostra contenti sint: Either let them prouide better cheere, and I will bee their guest, or if they will needs bee mine, let them take what they finde; a short supper broke off, before the princi­pall intended and prouided dishes were serued in. If this will not satisfie them, I pray them to thinke, that many times as some take a libertie to themselues, to censure other mens actions, and sleighten their indeuours: so it is not vnlikely, but that they may meete with others, who will take the like libertie to censure their censures, and contemne their con­tempts. But so much am I obliged to your loue, worthie Knight, that you haue not onely giuen me an inkling, that some except, but also acquainted mee what they except against that after-noones en­counter. Their exceptions lie either a­gainst conferences in generall in point of [Page] Religion, of which belike they say, They neuer saw any good come; or against the pas­sages of this Conference in particular.

For Conferences in generall with the Aduersaries of our faith, either to conuert them to the Truth, or conuince them with the Truth, wee haue not onely fre­quent precepts & examples in Scripture, but also an expresseCan. 66. Mi­nisters to con­ferre with Re­cusants. Canon of our Church, and an especial charge, euen with increpation from his Maiesty, in his Speech in the vpper House, at the first Ses­sion in the last Parliament. And if these were not, shall we suffer Wolues to enter into our Folds, and worry our dearest Lambs, bought at the high price of our Redeemer's Bloud, and that before our eyes, and not open our mouthes for their rescue? Can wee heare our noble Cham­pions disgraced; our blessed Martyres bloud of England trampled vpon, as spilt in vain; nay, our dearest Mother, which hath brought vs forth in Christ, to bee proclaimed an harlot, and all her children bastards, nay, damned miscreants, as ha­uing no visibility of Church, no possibi­lity [Page] of saluation; and none of vs vnsheath the sword of the Spirit in so good a quar­rell? O patientiam omni impatientiâ dignam! Such patience would put a man out of all patience. Such silence deserues a long and lowd declamation against it. Is this to be ready to giue an account to euery man that de­mandeth a reason of1. Pet. 3. 15the hope that is in vs? Is this to stopTit. 1. 11 the mouth of those who sub­uert whole houses, by leading away captiue simple women loaden with iniquity, and by our Eue-tempting Adams to eat the for­bidden fruit? Is this toTit. 1. 9. conuince the gain­sayers? I feare and tremble when I reade the words of our Sauiour;Ioh. 10. 12, 13 An hireling, seeing the Wolf, leaueth the sheep, and fleeth, and the Wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. I speak not of publick disputa­tions (within a State settled and resolued many yeers in point of Religion, as ours hath been, and is, God be thanked), but of priuate occasionall conferences, for the satisfaction especially of persons of quali­ty: which, asGaspar Lau­rent. de publicis disputationibus. Laurentius truely collects, without great offense to God, and scan­dall to his Truth, cannot sometimes bee [Page] anoided; the Aduersaries growing confi­dent vpon such seeming diffidence and refusall, and clamorous vpon our silence. Aristotle was wont to say,Plut. apoph. [...]: It is a shame for mee to hold my peace, when Zenocrates takes vpon him to teach. May not wee of the Ministery, that are Christs maeniall seruants, reflect in like manner on our selues, and say, [...]: It is a shame for me to be silent, when Priests and Iesuites are so clamorous? It is a shame for the Mini­sters of Christ to be backward to defend, when the Agents of Antichrist are for­ward to oppugne our most holy faith? nay, when the Supporters of heresie and idolatry haue taken so much brasse from the Images which they worship, to arme their own foreheads with, that they dare challenge and braue Truth and Religion to her face? Yea, but say they in the words of Tertullian,Tert. de prae­script cont. hae­ret. c. 17.Quid promouebis, dis­putator, &c.? What shall we gain by con­fronting these men? They wil not yeeld, nor cease to blaspheme the way of truth, though they bee neuer so plainly confu­ted. [Page] Non persuadebis, nec si persuaseris. Yet the Truth is honoured, in that shee hath Aduocates to plead her cause: and these pleadings erunt testimonio contra eos, shall bee an euidence against her Opposites at the Barre of Christ. TheQuintil. Insti­tut. orat. Gubernator vult salua naue in portu peruen [...] ­re: si tamen tempestate ab­reptus fuerit, non ideo minus erit gubernator. Pilot doth not alwaies bring the Ship safe to the Hauen; nor the Chirurgion cure the wound; nor the Physician recouer his Patient; nor the Preacher gain his Auditory: yet, if hee do his part, hee loseth not his reward with God, nor approbation with men. To la­bor for fruit, is ours: the fruit of our labor is Gods; who will render to euery man Rom. 2. 6 Apoc. 20. 13 according to his work, not according to the successe thereof. And therefore al­though the issue of Conferences should prooue no better sometimes, than of Sy­nods in the daies of Gregorie Nazianzene, yet would not this excuse our neglect of so necessary a duty: for, God can gain by our losses, and he attaineth his end, euen in our failing; at least,Rom. 1. 20 [...], to make the enemies of the truth vnexcusable. And what if wee doo not winne them, yet wee confirme both our [Page] selues and others, that loue the Truth in the Truth. And in this respect, Conferen­ces, if they be aduisedly vndertaken, and discreetly managed, according to their Latine Etymologie, alwaies conferre and conduce to some good end; to speake nothing of the Conference at Hampton-Court, or D. Rainolds conference with Hart: the fruit whereof we gather euen at this day. Whosoeuer readeth the life of Saint Austen, penned by Possidonius, and Caluins by Beza, shall finde, that as the Pelagians and Manichees of old, so the Libertines and Anabaptists of late, receiued their smartest blowe by disputa­tion. Did not Cyril confound Nestorius; Athanasius, Arius; Saint Austen, Fortuna­tus, by disputation? By what did Luther gain more, than by disputations? Was not Felix, Possid. in vit. Saint Austens purchase, if I may so speak?Synop. Cent. Was not Berillus, Saint Origens? Fabius, Dionysius his Conuert by disputa­tion? What better issue of a Conference could bee desired, than was that of Caeci­lius with Octauius, related byDial. Octa [...]. Minutius Felix? which endeth thus: We are both, [Page] saith he, winners in this Game: you haue wonne mee, and I haue won the Truth Tu victor mei, & ego triumphator erroris: We are both Conquerors: you haue con­quered me, and I triumph ouer my owne error.

Of writing many Books, especially of Controuersie, there is no end: in which, wee haue an Argument without an An­swer, and an Answer without a Reply. But, in a Conference orderly carried, the force of euery Argument, and sufficiency of euery Answer, is brought to the Test; and Truth and Error, by grappling toge­ther, try their vtmost strength. As, by smi­ting the Flint with the Steele, wee strike out fire: so, by the conflict and collision of contrary Arguments, the cleare light of Truth breaketh out.Rain. Thes. Vt aurum è terrae venis effossumab admistis terrae faecibus con­tundendo segregant Metallici; ita veritatis aureus Thesaurus collisu rationum mundatur à faecibus, &c. As those that work vpon Mines, seuer the precious metall from earthly dregs, by beating the Ore in the stamping-mill: so the golden treasure of [Page] Truth is seuered from dregs of error, and cleared, by being beaten out by Argumen­tations to or veritate religionis Christ. Ludouicus Viues long ago obserued, that the true faith and Religion is like gold, which is bettred by the hammer: but false religion, Heresie and superstition, are like Alchumy-stuffe, or glasse, which cannot endure the stroke, but are battered in pieces by it. The Christian Religion neuer refuseth touch of argument: but the Gentiles of old, and the Mahumetans at this day, re­fuse all triall by disputation; nay, they prohibit it vnder paine of death.

The Hussites, as Cocleus relates in their storie, were readie to bid their Aduersa­ries battell by disputation, but their Ad­uersaries were not so readie to vndertake them. Nay,Cocleus, hist. l. 1. l. 21. Iohn Gerson, in his Epistle to the Arch-bishop of Prague, is so far from encouraging him to put the matter to a triall in disputation, that he aduiseth him to take a farre different course with them, whom he there falsly calls Pseudo-doctores, false teachers. Now, saith he, The onely readie way to cut downe Heresies, [Page] is by the temporall sword. Miracles are ceased; neither is it lawfull now to tempt God, to confirme our faith, tanquam no­uellam, by Miracles. Neque rursus in dis­putando apud tales pertinaci animositate con­tendentes, et innitentes propriae prudentiae, vllus vnquam erit finis; quin potius nimis altercando, iuxta verbum Senecae, deperde­tur veritas, scandalizabitur populus, laedetur quo (que) summa charitas. Deni (que) talis obstinatorum proteruitas incidit in illud poetae, Aegrescit (que) medendo. Neither will there bee any end of dispu­ting with such pertinacious contenders, who rely vpon their owne wisdome: nay rather, according to the words of Seneca, the truth will bee lost with much wrangling: the people will bee scanda­lized; charity woūded; in a word, the pro­teruitie of obstinate persons will make good that of the Poet, The wound is the worse for the cure. So little did the Papists gaine (whatsoeuer faire glosse Gerson puts vpon it) by disputation with those noble Fore-runners of our Protestant Faith: and far lesse haue there successours [Page] gained by their disputations in Germany, France and England. I need adde no more to our disputers against disputations in generall, because they fight but aloof off. I am now to buckle with those who take the matter & manner of this conference to task: against which, as I vnderstand by you, they obiect, that it was but a Flourish, no Fight; a praeludium, and no true Encounter; no Argument in it pro­secuted to the full. This obiection might haue been spared, because in the Confe­rence it self it is confessed, that it grew not to that maturity, nor attained that progresse or issue which was desired: and there also it is expressed, whose fault it was. If a heauy and dull Beast, in rich trappings and furniture, making great shew of metall by rising and curuetting, yet, beeing spurred and lashed by the Ri­der, and beaten by all the standers by, wil not mend his pase, what disparagement is this to the Rider?

Howsoeuer, say they, the grapes being not ripe, were not fit for the presse; yet as vnripe as they were, they quenched then [Page] his thirst for whom they were gathered: and they, who, without knowledge of the principal Owners, put them in a few weeks so often in the presse, affirme, that the wineQui me ven­dit Bibliopola negat. Martial. Epigr. lyes not vpon their hand. Not­withstanding this and some other testi­monies, of some kind of approbation of this rather assay, then performance, I had buried this Embryo as soone as it was borne: and as it came into the world without a Midwife; so it should haue gone out of the world with­out a Bel-man, had not the slanderous tongues of enemies saued the life of it: who, both in England and beyond the seas, reported confidently, that it was such a mis-shapen and deformed monster, that the parents were ashamed it should see the Sunne. To checke these most false and iniurious reports, and pre­uent future scandall, it was in a manner necessarie, that this pamphlet should bee suffered to fly abroad. And now that it is abroad, what doe they libell against this little Impe, vnable to defend it self against such strife of tongues? They say, In it the [Page] proofes are diuersiue, and that I decline the method required by Master Fisher, plainely to proue the visibilitie of our Church, by producing Catalogues of names in al ages, beginning from Luther; and so, ascending vpwards to Christ and his Apostles. When I read this obiection in your letter, I could scarce forbeare laughing, because it brought to my re­membrance the simple Answer of a fresh-water souldiour; who, when his Antagonist remembred him with a smart blowe or two vpon his head and thighes, exclaimed, What, man? Canst thou not see my buckler? Is not my buckler broad enough? I saw M. Fishers buckler, and withall I obserued his blind sides, at which I laid. Am I therefore to bee bla­med? should I aduise him, as Aiax doth Vlysses,Ouid. Meta­morph.Post clypeum (que) late, et mecum con­tende sub illo. Lie behinde thy buckler, and contend with me vnder it? The truth is, that in the ages immediately before Lu­ther, and since theApoc. 20. 2. 1000 yeer, in which Satan was let loose, the Papists haue much to say for the visibility, yea and [Page] pomp too of their degenerating Church: but in the Primitiue tymes, especially in the golden Age, in which Christ and his Apostles, and their immediate successors and Scholars liued and died, they haue no more to say for the visibilitie of their now new Romish Church, then Master Fisher and Master Sweet said in the con­ference. Whosoeuer should haue discour­sed in those dayes, of Masses without Communicants, or Communion with­out the Cup, or the Lords Supper with­out Bread or Wine in substance, or pray­ers without vnderstanding, or adoring the Cross, or Dirges for the dead, or bles­sing Salt and Spettle, or censing Images, or baptizing bells, or hallowing grains and medals, or wearing Agnus Dei's, or praying by tale vpon Beads, or of the circumgestation of the Hoast, or Priest shauen crownes, or Monks Cowles, or Cardinals Hatts, or the Popes [...]triple Crowne, or his pardons, and dispensati­ons, and taxes for all manner of sinnes, or his canonizing Saints, o [...] deposing Kings, or the like; would haue been thought be­sides himselfe.

[Page] This is the true cause why, the question being propounded, Of all ages before Lu­ther, I chose rather to descend frō Christ to Luther, then ascend frō Luther to Christ and his Apostles. Demosthenes Orat. de Co­rona. will by no meanes endure, that his aduersarie Aes­chines should prescribe him his method: he saith, It is against the golden rule, to be kept in all iudgements, [...]. Yea, but they say, this is not all: for, you turned quite out of the way: You should haue proued one thing, and you proued another. The question was of the visibili­tie of Church: but your arguments were of the eternity of faith. Is not this thiug adEras. Adag.Choū; Ego respondeo de allijs: tu disputas de cepis: M. Fisher answered of Garlike, & you spake of Onions. For this vnsauory exception, M. Sweet was sauced in the conference: where it was proued against him, that to proue an effect by the cause, is a direct & naturall, and not a diuersiue proofe. My argument standeth thus:

The true Primitiue faith, once giuen to the Saints, hath had, must, and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof.

[Page] But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith, once giuen to the Saints:

Therefore the Protestant faith hath had, and shall haue alwaies visible Pro­fessors thereof.

The Maior is euident in Scripture, and confessed on all hands. The Minor I offe­red to proue: but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall. The Maior and Mi­nor passing without controll, none but Master Fisher would haue denied or di­stinguished vpon the conclusion. This argument I affirme not onely direct, to proue the conclusion denied; but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question, which is, to finde out the true Church: whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe, but out of Scrip­ture. And for the visibility of the true Church, either it is a matter of faith, or not. If not, what need wee so much trou­ble our selues with it? If it bee matter of faith,De praescr. contr. Haeret. c. 16. Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de re­bus fidei, nisi ex literis fidei? can they other­wise perswade in matter of faith, then [Page] out of the Writ of faith, that is, the holy Scripture? For humane Stories and Re­cords in al ages, they are not easily found: and when we haue found them, we find them so defectiue, so corrupted and de­faced, and oftentimes so contrary one to another, that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour. And were they ne­uer so perfect, as Bellar. confesseth, they could not begetBellar. l. 2. de effect. Sacram. c. 25. quod Hi­stories quibus meminerint eorum Concili­orum, non potest parere fidem nisi humanam, cui potest subesse falsa. diuine and infallible faith. If no man can bee saued, without knowledge that he is in the true Church: and no man can knowe, that he is in the true Church, vnless hee can proue out of good Authours, the perpetuall suc­cession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth, as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation; what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church, who neither haue time, nor meanes, nor lear­ning, to search all Records of Antiquitie? Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages, who maintained the present Tridentine faith (which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did, or could,) [Page] yet they are little neerer: For Iewes and Paynims, and it may bee, diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages, since Christ and his Apostles times, and some before. From visibility of Professors no man can certainely con­clude truth of sauing Doctrine confor­mable to Scriptures: but from confor­mity of Doctrine to the scriptures, a man may by infallible consequence, grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church, con­clude perpetuall visibility of professors, more or lesse. And therefore the course I tooke, is not onely the streight, but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church, which is the1 Tim. 3. 15 house of the liuing God, the pillar and ground of truth. Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism. I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue, and shew my induce­ments to my induction. Against which, I heare by you, it is excepted, that in vn­dertaking it, I leaue the beaten way, and take a way by my self, where I shall sure­ly lose my selfe, & neuer come to an end. [Page] To this obiection, the ciuil Law furni­sheth me with an Answer: Nemo tenetur diuinare; No man is bound to prophecie before-hand, especially of the successe of anothers labours. If leaue be procured for a second Meeting, the golden thread of succession, which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand, and his Apostles, shall be drawne downe (God willing) to later Ages, euen to Luthers time. But what they meane by holding the beaten way, I cannot easily diuine. If they mean, that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church, by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church, [...]; I say, that way, perhaps beaten by some, yet seems to me a slipperie & dirty way: and I hope I shall bee able to shew, that we need notEras. Adag. aurum in stercore quaerere, to seek the golden purity of faith, amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions, and deprauations in later ages. Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more ex­cellent way; quos sequor à longe, et vestigia pronus adoro. These are, Doctor Abbot, now my Lord of Canterbury, in his An­swer [Page] to Hill; Humfrey to Campion his third reason; Doctor Vsher, now Lord of Meth, de successione Ecclesiae; The History of the Waldenses; Fox, Acts and Monu­ments; Crispin, of the state of the church; Morneys mystery of iniquity, with Riuets defense thereof; Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors; Illiricus witnesses of the truth; Wolsius his select readings; Lydius his Waldensia, and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse. As those that trauell by night through theBe. Orat. Hercynian Forest, when they are at a stand, obserue certaine birds fleeing before them; and, by the bright­nes of their white feathers shining in the dark, guide their steppes, and finde out a way: so, in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages, when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee, I doubt not, but, by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me, I mean the light▪ of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject, to finde out my way.

I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Confe­rence, [Page] except an omission of the s [...]ate of the question; which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered, as they could wish. That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Con­ference, they say is so brief, that,Sen. de Ben. instar fulguris terret magis quàm illustrat, it is like lightning, which rather scares, than lights the Passenger in his way. If this were a iust exception, yet it lyeth not against me, who had the Opponents part put vpon me, but against M. Fisher, who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent. For, by the orders of all Schools, it is the Answerers, and not the Opponents task, to state the Question. He that keeps a Fort in battel, is to make his ramparts, and guard the walls with redouts and out-works: the assailants part is to lay well his batteries, and make breaches where he can.

At the next desired meeting, when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place, the Question should haue been explicated to the full (by the distinctions & conclusions heer­in inclosed). But, as that Meeting, by iniu­rious [Page] suggestions, was then, so I feare, all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine. The Infor­mers, whether they were Popishly or in­differently affected in points of Religion, I knowe not: sure I am, they doo the di­uel a great deal of wrong, by incroaching vpon his office, which is, To bee [...]: the Accuser of the brethren. Accu­sator fratrum. As for mine owne part, it grieues not m [...] to receiue a wound from them, who, in due respect to Religion and Calling, should haue rather applied a salue. But I may truely say, in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus,

Mart. Epigr. Vulnus quod cepi non dolet, in quam: Sed quòd tu caperes, hoc mihi, Linde, dolet.

It grieues me, that you should suffer a­ny thing for your religious and pious in­tention, to regain your kinsman to our Church, and establish your friends in the Truth. Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church. Macte virtute. As you haue rai­sed Bertram: so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust, and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their [Page] tongues (which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off, for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome). And though peraduenture you receiue no bet­ter reward, at least by some, than affronts for acknowledgements; and rebukes for thanks; yet doubt not▪ one day, for a full recompence of your paines and charges. Trust him for your Aur [...]ola, whom you trust for your Crown: take his word for the Interest, vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal; who as he fearfully threat­neth, that he wil be ashamed of them who de­nyMat. 10. 33him before men, so he graciously pro­miseth to all those whoLuke 12. 8 confesse him be­fore men, that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen.


Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH.

The Questions propounded by the Ie­suite, were,

1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible?

2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages, &c?

To the first question, I answer: This question, as all other, will be best explicated

  • by
    • Distinctions of the tearmes.
    • Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions.

The tearms to be distinguished of, are three.

  • The subiect, A Church.
  • The denomination, Protestant.
  • The attribute, Visible.

Of the tearm, Church.

The first distinction.

The Church may be considered

  • Either in respect of election & inward sanctification;
  • Or in respect of outward vocation, and profession of the truth.

In this question, wee consider the Church in [Page] the latter respect, in which alone it is visible: for although the elect, as they are men, and professe the true faith, are visible; yet men professing the true faith, as they are elect, and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds, are not visible.

The second distinction.

A Church professing the Christian faith, may be taken, either

More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith, whether they be vnited vn­der one gouernment in one Countrey, Kingdome or Empire, or scattered through the whole world.

Or more strictly, for a company of profes­sors of the true faith, hauing actuall commu­nion one with the other, vnited vnder one gouernment, within certain limits, secluded and seuered from other societies and con­gregations. As for example: The Reformed Church in France, at this day is vnited within it selfe, and seuered from the Po­pish Church, and the members thereof: among whom yet they liue, and ciuilly con­uerse.

In this question, wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages, in the latter sense. It sufficeth, that we shew it in the for­mer, and prooue, that there were alwaies those who▪ maintained the doctrine which wee now [Page] teach, whether they were vnited, or seuered, had actuall communion one with another, or not; kept publique assemblies by themselues apart, from the Romane, and other Churches, or not: For as Saint Austen shewethAug. Contra Donatist. lib. 6. cap. 4. Idem Spi­ritus sanctus ea dimittit, qui da­tus est omnibus sanctis sibi cha­ritate cohaeren­tibus, siue se no­uerint corpora­liter, siue non. against the Dona­tists, The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints, who are knit one to another in charity, whether they know one another corporally or not.

Of the denomination Protestant.

Distinction the first.

Protestants may be considered, Either according to their name, taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent, or against theD. Andrew, now Bishop of Winton, Resp. ad Apolog. Bel­lar. pag. 20. Protestantium nostris nomen ab euentu fuit: errores enim tū quosdam & a­busus non diuti­us tolerare vel­le se, sed [...]am tol­lere protestati sunt; caetera ve­ro quae sa [...]a vo­biscum retinere. errors and abuses of Poperie, when they grewe to their ful measure, & were most vnsufferable, about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome, or a little after; or from the Protestation of the Bohemians, in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe byCocl. lib. 5. Coclae­us, in his L. 5. histor. of the Hussits:

Or according to their faith and doctrine, positiuely comprised in, & confined to scrip­ture; and oppositely, as it is repugnant to all errors in faith, and manners, against the holy Scriptures, especially against the present er­rors of the Church of Rome.

In this question, wee consider Protestants in the later sense, not in the former. The name, we confesse, of Protestants is not very antient, as [Page] neither is the name of Papists, much lesse of Ie­suites: but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apo­stles: Ignat. Epist. ad Philad.and we may truly say with Ignatius the Mar­tyr, [...]: Iesus Christ is my antiquity. As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions: so the self-same faith of Protestants, in substance, hath passed thorow all Ages, yet with diuers names; as of Becherits, Berengarians, Petrobrusians, Henricians, Albingenses, Waldenses, Dulcinists, Lo­lards, Luiddamites, Wickleuists, Hussites, Thaborits, Lutherans, Hugonots, Gospellers and Reformers. The faithfull, as wee read in the Acts, Acts 11. 26. were first called Christians at Antioch: yet were they in­deed Christians, euen from Adam, after the promise was giuen, that theGen. 3. It shall break thy head. seed of the woman should break the Serpents head. So, that although we should grant toApolog. ad Reg. Ang. Bellarmine, that the name of Prote­stants was not heard of, for 1500. yeeres after Christ, yet would it not hence follow, but that the Prote­stants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles, yea, in a true sense, as Adam him­selfe; sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith.

Distinction the second.

Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts; either

Implicitely, and vertually: and such are all those, who holding the Scripture for the [Page] sole and entire rule of faith, condemn consequently all doctrines of faith, against or besides the holy Scrip­tures, especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines, from whence by necessary and infallible conse­quence, some particular error or o­ther of the Romish Church (al­though not perhaps sprung vp in their time) may bee refelled.

Or explicitly, and actually: and such are they, who directly & profes­sedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in, or not long after; especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions, af­ter they grew to a ripe sore, fit to bee lanced, about the time of Luther.

In this question, wee restraine not the name Protestants, to those who renounce all the particu­lar errors of the present Romish church at this day: for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther. The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed, before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them. Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder, and deformation. Nei­ther doe wee restraine the name Protestants, to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery, as of Transubstantiation, Purgatory, Indul­gences, &c. for such professed opposing, could not [Page] bee imagined, before such errors were in beeing. But as the Fathers, before the Councell of Nice, did not in words define [...], or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father, and not [...] onely, that is, of a like substance; nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name:Homoousiani. yet are they rightly esteemed [...] indeed, or maintainers of the right beliefe, touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father; because out of their Sentences and Wri­tings this truth may be deduced, howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of [...]: So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants, who, holding nothing against the protestant faith, deliuer some doctrines, and positions, from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted, whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God, or no.

Of the tearme Visible.

A Church may be said to be visible, two man­ner of waies: either

Visible to the whole world, and that eminently, and in some sort pompously, as the Roman Empire, & kingdom of Naples, or respublica Venetorum: Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. militan­te. c. 12. in which sense, the Papists affirm, that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible: but wee denie it.

Or visible to all the members of that Church, either such as God hath already called, or such as he will call in time, who [Page] by searching and due inquirie, may and shall finde out the true Church their mo­ther.

In this question, we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages, in the first acception, but in the later onely, wee main­taine a visible; but not a conspicuous, eminent, and glorious face of a Church in all Ages, con­sisting of an apparant Hierarchy, as the Papists teach.

I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question. I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions, ser­uing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion, touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church.

The first assertion.

The Church, in the most strict and proper acception thereof, is the whole company of Gods elect. Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes, describeth her: TheHeb. 12. 23. generall assembly and Church of the first borne, which are written in heauen. And Saint Grego­ry vpon Ezechiel: There is one Church of the elect, both going before, and following after. And againe vp­on the Canticles: Christ, according to the grace of his foreknowledge, hath built a holy Church of Saints, which shall eternally perseuer in grace. And Saint Bernard: Greg. in Ezek.This is the Church of the Elect.Hom. 15. l. 2. Vna Ecclesia est electorum prae­cedentium at (que) sequentium. Of this Church,Greg. in Cant. Sanctam Eccle­siam, de sanctis in aeternum per­mansuris ex­struxit.Saint AustenBer. ser. 68. in Cant. Haec est Ecclesia electo­rum. speaketh most expresly: He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church,Aug. l. 20. de ciuit. Dei. c. 8. which [Page] is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world:Nunquam ab illa Ecclesia seduceturprae­destinatae, et electa ante con­stitutionem mundi. yet poore Iohn Hus, asIn his Catho­lick modera­tor.H. C. a zea­lous Papist, rightly obserueth, was burnt, by the decree of the Councell of Constance, for saying no more in this point, then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him, viz.Cocleus Hist. Bohem. l. 3. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat: The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate, and of them onely. But the best is, as our Resp. ad Camp. Humfrey spea­keth pertinently: Combustus est, non confutatus Hussius: Iohn Hus was indeed burned, but hee was neuer confuted. His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond, neuer to bee razed out: for, it is Gods truth: The foundation of God stan­deth sure, hauing this seale, The Lord know­eth them that are his. And so I fall into my second assertion.

The second assertion.

The Church in this acception, as it consisteth of the elect onely, is knowne to God onely, and consequently is inuisible. This the Apostle2. Tim. 2. 29. teacheth: The Lord knoweth them that are his: And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words,Reu. 2. 17. I will giue him a white stone, and in it a new name written, which no man knoweth, sauing hee that receiueth it. For, what man1. Cor. 2. 11.knoweth the things of a man, saue the spi­rit of man which is in him? TheIer. 17. 9, 10.heart of man is de­ceitfull aboue all things, who can knowe it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reines. This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God, to sound the bot­tome [Page] of mans heart, the faithfull acknowledge in their deu [...]utest prayers; as Salomon:1. King. 8. 39.Thou euen thou onely, knowest the hearts of all the children of men. And Ieremie,Ier. 20. 12.Thou that triest the Righteous, and seest the reines, and the heart. And the eleuen Apo­stles: Acts 1. 24. Thou Lord, which knowest the harts of all men Now, if God onely knowe the heart, he onely knowes who beleeue in him, and loue him in sincerity of heart. Therefore let none, saith Saint Cyp. l. 3. Ep. 3. Cyprian,Nec quisquam sibi, quod soli filio tribuit Pa­ter, vindicare se puter, vt ad aream ventilan­dam et purgan­dam paleam iam ferre se posse, &c.arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely (to weet) in the floore of the Church, to take the fanne, and seuer the chaffe from the wheat. The elect are the first borne, whose names are written in heauen, Heb. 12. 23. Now, what earth­ly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen? SaintProsp. l. de Grat. & libero arbitrio, ad Ruffin: Cer­tum apud De­uin, definitum (que) esse numerum electorum ad vitam aeternam Prosper forbeares it; defining, that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those, who are predestinated to eternall life. Whence we may rightly conclude, that the Pope, in canonizing Saints, and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem, incurres into a pra [...]unire, by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God, who reserueth to himselfe alone the dis­cerning of vessels of honour, from vessels of dis­honour, that is, the elect from the reprobate. But our aduersaries obiect, If wee restraine the Church to the elect, and pronounce them inui­sible, we make aCamp. rat. 3. Platonicall Idea, or an aer [...]all body, or mathematicall abstract of the Church. Heereunto we answer, first▪ out of SaintProsp. loc. sup [...] citat. Prosper: Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum, tam im­pium [Page] est negare, quàam ipsi gratiae contraire: It is as im­pious to deny, that the number of the elect is certaine with God, as to deny grace it selfe. And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea, which is most certaine in the knowledge of God? Se­condly, we teach not, that the Church in this notion is an Idea, extra rem, or singularia, or a body houering in the aire, or floting in the fansie: we teach, that it truly subsisteth, partly in heauen in the triumphant; and partly on earth, in the militant part therof. This militant part, though in respect of the whol number & inward calling, it bee inuisible, yet in respect of the outward cal­ling to, and profession of sauing faith, it is alwaies more or lesse visible. The elect are visible men, and exist in the visible congregations of Christi­ans, as the apple in the ey, or a Diamond in a Ring, or the soule in the body. As Athens is cal­led the [...] Greece of Greece: so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church: for, in respect of them principally, are those glorious ti­tles giuen, and gracious promises made to the Church, which are registred in holy Scripture.

The third assertion (which trencheth neer vp­on our question).

The Church, in a larger notion, comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ. Thus LactantiusLactan. l. 4. Instit. dium. c. vlt. defineth the Church: Catholica Ecclesia est, quae verum Dei cultum retinet: hic est fons veritatis, hoc est domicilium fidei, hoc Tem­plum [Page] Dei: quo si quis non intrarit, vel a quo si quit ex­iuerit, àspe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est &c. That is the Catholique Church, which retaines the true wor­ship of God. This is the Fountaine of truth: this the House of faith: this is the Temple of God: he that shall not enter heerein, or shall depart hence, is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation. Of the Church in this acception, ourMat. 18. 17.Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood, If hee refuse to heare the Church, let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican. And Saint Lukes, Acts 15. 22.Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church, &c. And1. Cor. 11. 22.Saint Paul's, Despiseyee the Church of God, &c? And in his Epistle to the Ephes. 3. 2. Ephe­sians: Vnto him bee glory in the Church, &c. And to 1. Tim. 3. 5.Timothy: How shall hee take care of the Church of God? The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field, wherein are tares with the wheat; a floore, wherein is chaffe with graine; a net, wherein are sweet fish, and rotten; an house, in which are precious vessels and vile; to the Ark, in which were cleane and vncleane beasts. To the Church taken in this sense, Mat. 16. 18.Christ directeth vs: Tell the Church. And Saint Paul, That1. Tim. 3. 15. thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to be­haue thy self in the House of God, which is the Church of the liuing God. And Saint Cypr. de sim­plic. praelat. Non pertinet ad Christi praemia, qui relinquit Ecclesiam Chri­sti. alienus est: profanus est: habere [...]am non potest Deum pa­trem, qui Eccle­siam non habet matrem. Cyprian: Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ, who leaueth the Church of Christ: hee is a stranger: hee is a profane person: for hee cannot haue God to his Father, who hath not the Church for his Mother. And Saint Aug. confess. l. 8. Augustine,Non deputabo te inter Chr [...]sti­anos, nisi in Ec­clesia Christi [...]e videro. I will not account thee a Christian, vnlesse, I see thee in the Church.

The fourth assertion.

The Church in this notion, as it extends to all that professe the true Religion, and participate in the pledges of saluation, was euer, is, and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world. That it hath euer beene hitherto visible, all Histories accord: and that it shall so continue to the worlds end, our Sauiours words are our warrant, Mat. 28. 20. Goe yee, and teach all nations, &c. andle, I am with you alwaies, euen vnto the end of the world. For the continuance of Gods Word, the Prophet Esay is most peremp­tory: ThisEsay 59. 21. is my couenant with thee, saith the Lord, &c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, from hence-foorth for euer. And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments, that they shall bee ad­ministred, till his second comming: 1. Cor. 11. 26. As oft as yee eat of this Bread, and drink of this Cup, yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come. And lastly, S. Paul's words are as expresse for the Ministery: Ephes. 4. 11. 12. 13. He gaue some Apostles, some Prophets, &c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith, &c. It is true, Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church, and there shall be such a falling away, that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth: false prophets, and false Christs shall arise, and seduce, if it were possible, the elect; but that is not pos­sible: hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church. Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites [Page] and temporizers, it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it, and retaine the [...] faith; and if they retaine it, they will also p [...]ofessed it [...] Rom. 10. 10. for with the heart, man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse [...] with the tongue, confession is made vnto saluation. Sain [...] Aug. in Ps. 110. conc. 2. Quid est quod dicis, Iam pe­rijsse Ecclesiam de omnibus gen­tibus? Quando ad hoc praedica­tur euangelium, vt possit esse in omnibus genti­bus, ergo ad finem seculi Ecclesia erit in omnibus gen­tibus.Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the [...]ona­tists: What is that that thou sayest, The Church [...] al­ready perished, and gone out of all Nations? [...] therefore the Gospell is preached, that it may bee in all Nations, therefore euen vnto the end of the world, [...] Church shall bee in all Nations. I may saue the la­bour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point, because Page 52. & 53. M. Fisher, in his reflection on the Conference, spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it, as a strong bulwark (as hee imagineth) against vs. I conclude there­fore with Saint Ambrose,Hexam. l. 4. c. 2. Ecclesia [...] po­test, effluere non potest: The Church may bee euer­shadowed, it cannot quite faile or bee [...]

The fift assertion.

The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible, but sometimes it is more visible, sometimes it is lesse. It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid's dayes,Psal. 79. 1. 2.when he sung, In Iurie is God knowne, his name is great in Israel, then it was in the time that Hos. 3. 4.Hosea prophecies of, Israel shall remain many daies without a King, and without a sacrifice. It was more visible in the daies Mal. 1. 11. Malachie foreshews of, From the rising of the Sunne, euen to the going downe there [Page] of, my name shall be great among the Gentiles, then in the daies 1. King. 19. 18. Eliah complaineth of: I, euen I, am left alone. The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon, when she is compared to aPsal. 45. 10.Queene honourably attended, then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of, when shee is compared to a Reu. 12. 7.Woman flying into the wildernesse. Shee was more visible in the daies Esay 49. 23. Esay fortelleth of, Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers, and Queenes thy nursing mothers, then in the daies of Antichrists tyran­nie, when KingsApoc. 17. 17. shall giue their Kingdome to the beast. In regard of this mutable estate of the mi­litant Church, Mica. 7. 8. Micah giueth her this Motto: Reioyce not ouer mee, O my enemy: though I fall, I shall rise againe. And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone: Cant. 6. 10. My Loue is faire as the Moone. To which ground Saint Austen alluding, interpreteth, Aug. in Psal. 10.Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam, the Moone in the E­clipse or darkned, the Church in trouble and persecution. And Saint Ambrose. Hexam. l. 4. c. 8. Ambrose, Ecclesia, vt Luna, defectus habet et or [...]us frequentes: The Church, as the Moone, hath her often waxings and wainings. And in hisAmbrose l. 5. ep. 31. Luna ipsa (qua propheticis ora­culis species Ec­clesiae figuratur) cum primum resurgens in menstruas re­paratur aetates, tenebris noctis obsconditur, paulatimque cornua sua complens, vel e [...] regione Solis obsoluens, clari splendore sulgo­ris rutilat.Epistle: The Moone it selfe (whereby, in the Oracles of the Prophets, the coun­tenance of the Church is figured) when at the first rising againe, shee is renued into the ages of the moneth, shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night; and by little and little filling her hornes, or right ouer against the Sunne, rounding them, doth shine with the light of cleere bright­nesse.

The sixt assertion

The false and malignant Church is oft time [...] visible, conspicuous and ample, then the true Church: and consequently, eminent Visibility, amplitude, and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church. The glorious face and outside of a Church, which dazleth our aduersaries eyes, was rather against 1. Kings 22. 22.Michea, then for him: all the Prophets propheci­ed, &c. It was rather against 1. Kings 19. 10. Eliah, then for him: for there were 450 Priests of Baal, besides C [...] ­marims; and hee took no notice in a manner of a­ny seruant of God but himselfe. It was rather a­gainst Ier. 18. 18.Ieremy, then for him, when all the Priests took counsell against him, saying, The law shall not de­part from the Priest, &c. Nay, the glorious out­side and face of a Church, was rather againstMat. 27. 1.Christ himselfe, then for him. All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus. Since Christs death, to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks, the Arrians (vndoubtedly) would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp, for some hundreds of yeres, if that were a safe triall: for Saint Ier [...]m ad Lucif. c. 7. Ierome com­plaineth, Tunc [...]. vsiae nomen abolitum est: tunc [...] fidei damnatio conclamata est [...] Arrianum se esse miratus est: Then the name of sub­stance was abolished: then the condemnation of the [...] ­cene Creed was proclaimed, the whole world sighed and maruelled, that it became Arrian, VincentiusVincent. aduers. haeres. p. 6 [...]. put [...] the [...] case what was to be done, Quando, saith he, Arria­norum [Page] venenū non iàm portiunculam quandam, sed pe­ne orbem totum contaminauerat, adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis, partim vi, partim fraude deceptis, caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur: When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little por­tion, but in a manner the whole world, insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops, partly by force, and part­ly by cunning, were intrapped, and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes. These things beeing so, may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists, as Gregory Na­zianzen doth the Arrians,Nazian. ad Arrian. [...] &c? Where are they now, who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs, and boast of their wealth; who define the Church by multitude, and despise the little flock of Christ; who honour the sand, and reproach the greater lights of heauen; who treasure vp Check-stones, and passe by Margarites?

The seauenth Assertion.

When there is a difference betweene the visible pro­fessors of Christianity, and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church, in opposition to the other, the one­ly sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dis­sident parties are of the true Church, is, by trying their doctrine by Scripture. To this touch-stone of truth, the Prophet Esay 8. 20. Esay directeth vs, To the Law, and to the Testimony, if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. And our blessed Sauiour; Iohn 5. 3. 9. Search the Scriptures: for in them you think yee haue eternall life. And S. Peter,2. Pet. 1. 19. We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie; vnto which, you doe [Page] well, if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place. By this rule, theActs [...]7. 11.Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle, searching the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Saint Austen Aug. de vnit. Ecclesiae. c. 3. best approoueth of this course, to come to the knowledge of the true Church, In Scripturis Ca­nonicis requiramus Ecclesiam: in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church: And, Non audiamus, Haec dico, Haec dicis: sed audiamus, [...] dicit Dominus. Sunt certi libri Dominici, quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus; ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam: Let vs not heare, I say this, or Thou saist this: but let vs heare, This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God, to whose authority wee both consent; there let vs seeke the Church. And, after much debating the matter, hee concludeth the Chapter with these words, Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus: there­fore let vs seeke her (the Church) in the Canonicall Scriptures. And, Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua, sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam. Aug. ep. 48. Saint Basil. ep. 82. Basil directeth vs to the same course, [...]: With whom­soeuer, doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found, the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side. To forbeare more allegations, the learned Au­thor of the imperfect work on Mathew, hearing the name of S. In Mat. 24. Chrysostome, deliuereth a firmer conclusion, in formall and expresse tearmes, and that seuerall times; shewing, that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it. [...] [Page] modis [...]stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi, et quae Gentilitas: nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur, quae ve­ra Ecclesia Christi, nisi tantummodò per Scripturas: quare quia omnia haec, quae sunt proprie Christi in veri­tate, habent et haereses illae in schemate, similiter Ecclesi­am, similiter, scripturas, similiter baptismum, similiter eucharistiam, et caetera omnia, dem [...]m ipsum Christum: Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Eccle­sia, vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis, nisi tantummodo per Scripturas? Et pòst, Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia, vnde cognos­cat nisi tantummodò per Scriptura [...]? Formerly it was shewed many waies, what was the true Church of Christ, and what was Gentilism: but now it is knowne no other way, which is the true Church of Christ, but onely by the Scriptures. Where­fore, because all these things which properly be­long vnto Christ in truth, euen those heresies haue in shadow; in like manner the Church, in like manner the Scriptures, in like manner Bap­tisme, in like manner the Lords Supper, and all other things; finally, Christ himselfe: Hee ther­fore, who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ, whence should hee know it, in such a great confusion of multitude, but onely by the Scriptures? And a little after, Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ, whence should hee know it, but onely by the Scriptures? It is obser­ued by those who follow the Law, that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement & iu­risdiction of the Court, he certainely despaires [Page] of his cause in that Court. And what can wee in­terpret it in our aduersaries, but distrust and de­spaire of their cause, to detract as they doe from the perfection, and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture, for deciding all con­trouersies?

And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fel­lowes: Edmund. Camp. rat. 1. Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in ca [...] ­sa diffidentiam loquuntur, tum nihil aqué atque sauc­torum maiest as bibliorū foedissimè violata, [...] quid causa a fuit, vt Euangelium Mathaei & Acta resi­gerent Apostolica? Desperatio, &c. Quid [...] vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas? Desperati [...], I may adde, following his tune, Quid Piggi [...], Hosio, Lyndano; quid Stapletono, Bellarmino, &c? Whereas there are many things which pro­claime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause, so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture. What was the cause, that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew, and the Acts of the Apostles? De­speration. What was the cause that the Ebio­nites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul? De­speration. I may goe on, following the same note and tune, and say, What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures, Dead inke? Despe­ration. What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner, rem inanimem et [...] ­tam, a thing without life, and dumb? Desperation. What is the cause, that Piggius, Ecehius, [...], [Page] Pereonius, Norris, & diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency, and obscure the excellencie of Scripture, by terming it, Na­sum cereum, Euangelium nigrum, Theologiam atra­mentariam, Lesbiam regulam? a Nose of waxe, a black Gospell, inkie Diuinity, a Lesbian rule? Desperation. They appeale from Scripture, vnder pretence, that it is an imperfect rule, and dumbe Iudge, and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs: why? because that if they should referre the en­ding of all Controuersies to Scripture, and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles, they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause.

The eightth Assertion.

The paucitie of right Beleeuers, and obscurity and latencie of the true Church, protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof, is most clearely foretold in Scripture. First, by ourLuke 18. 8. Sauiour: When the Sonne of man commeth, shall he finde faith on the earth?In hunc locum.Maldonat the Ie­suite answereth, Vix fideminueniet: He shall scarce finde faith. FalseMat. 24. 11, et 24.Christs and false prophets shall a­rise, and shall seduce many, yea, they shall do signes and wonders, and seduce, if it were possible, the Elect. Se­condly, by Saint1. Tim. 4. 1. Paul, the Spirit speaketh [...], exertè, expresly, that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith. And in the second, to the2. Thes. 1. Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first. Thirdly, by Saint [Page] Reu. 10. 3, 12. Iohn, After a thousand yeers, Satan must bee loosed a little season. And,Reu. 12. 4. The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen. And,Reu. 13. 3, 4. All the world wondred after the Beast, and they worshipped the Beast,et. v. 8.saying, Who is like vnto the Beast, &c.? All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Booke of Life, &c.Reu. 18. 3.All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications, &c. And no maruell, that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity, when the diuell and Antichrist set all their for­ces against them.Apoc. 12. 15. The Serpent casts out of his mouth water, as a flood, after the woman, that hee might cause h [...]r to be caried away of the flood. I might alledge ma­ny pregnant testimonies, both out of the antient Fathers, & the learned Papists also of later time, for the blacke and gloomie, darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist. But SaintAug ep. 80. Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and la­tency of the Church, that I need adde no more. Ecclesia est Sol, Luna, et Stellae: quando Sol obscurabi­tur, et Luna non dabit lucem suam, et Stellae cadent de coelo, Ecclesia non apparebit, impijs vltra modum saeui­entibus: The Church is Sunne, Moone, and Starres: when the Sunne shall be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the Starres shall fall from heauen, the Church shall not appeare, the wicked raging against her with­out all measure. Mee thinks I heare our aduer­saries say, What makes this obseruation for the [Page] Protestant Church or faith? I answer, Much eue­ry way. It furnisheth vs both with a strong de­fensiue weapon, and offensiue also. The defensiue may be thus framed:

That Church which hath beene perse­cuted, massacred, wasted, and driuen to great extremity, and reduced to a small number, resembleth the true Church, as the state thereof is described in her later Ages.

But the Protestant Church, especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ, hath beene persecuted, massacred, wasted, and driuen to great extremity, and reduced to a small number:

Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church; and consequently her obscurity maketh ra­ther for her, then against her.

We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner:

The true Church, in the later Ages thereof, must be in great distresse, and dri­uen to a narrow compasse.

The Popish Church hath not beene so:

Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church.

For they make eminent Visibility and splen­dour, a note of their Church. If they answer, that their Church, vnder heathen and Arrian Empe­rors, [Page] hath beene grieuously persecuted, I reply:

First, that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies, were rather our Martyrs then, theirs, because they sealed with their bloud, the truth of Scripture-Doctrine, and not of Popish tradi­tions, or additions.

Secondly, those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church, long before the 1000 yeere, in which Satan was let loose: but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages. Therefore when the Papists in­sultingly demand of vs, Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther? the best way to represse their insolency, is, to put a crosse interrogatorie to them, Where did your Church lie hid? When did it fly into the Wildernesse, for the space of 1260 dayes? When did the Beast with seu­uen heads, and tenne hornes, push at it? In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her? As for the predecessors of our faith, and Standard-bearers of our Religion, it appeareth vpon their owne records, how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands, and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them, per­secuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians, Lyonists, Henricians, Petrobrusians, Albingenses, Waldenses, Wickleuists, Thaborites, Hussites, Lutherans, Caluinists, and Hugonots, and the like. Heere see the craft of Satan, and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers: they was [...]e the [Page] flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters, and re­quire of vs, Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine? They traduce vs for paucity, whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number. They vpbraid vs with those maymes, and skarres which them­selues haue giuen vs, and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away, as shall appeare more at large here­after.

The ninth Assertion.

Errors in doctrine, and abuses in practice, for the most part steale in secretly, and by degrees, sensim sine sen­su, and are therefore seldome discerned, and openly op­posed, before they get head and strength. ThisVincent. Lyran. de [...]. c. 15.ob­seruation I owe to Vincentius Lyranensis. L [...]tenter superinducunt errores, quos nec cito deprehendere va­leas, nec facilè damnare: they bring in errors secret­ly, which a man cannot soone finde out, nor easi­ly condemne. And Vincentius seemeth to haue borrowed it of Tertul. ad­uersus Vale [...] ­tin. c. 1. Tertullian, Nihil magis curant, qu [...]m vt occultent quod praedicant, sitamen praedicant quod occultant: they seeke nothing more, then to hide that which they preach, if yet they may bee said to preach that they hide. And againe, c. 3. Obscon­dit se Serpens quantum potest totamque prudentiam in laqueorum ambagibus torquet: alte habitat, in [...] de­truditur, per a [...]fractus seriem suam [...] procedit, nec semel totus [...] bestia. The Ser­pent hides himselfe as much as hee can, and [Page] sheweth his chiefe skill in wreathing himselfe into foulds, hee thrusts himselfe into darke and blind holes, &c. This2. Pet. 2. 1. note Tertullian took from Saint Peter: There shall bee false teachers among you▪ who shall priuily bring in damnable heresies. And Saint Peter himselfe might gather it from our Sauiours words,Mat. 13. 25. Whil'st men slept, the enemy came, and so [...]ed tares. And therefore Bellarmine, and Ca [...]pi [...]n, and M. Fisher, doe but dreame, when they con­ceiue that the enemy hath not sowne the tares of heresies, and superstitions, in the Church of Rome, because (as they suppose) that we cannot shew the precise time when all these tares were sowne. For, our Sauiour makes answer to this question (Vnde zizania? Whence were these [...]?) for vs, They were sowne whilst men slept. Chan­ges and alterations are of two sorts: some are violent, and sudden, and with a great noise; others are made by degrees, and come in piece-meale, and without any sound at all. In the former kinde it is no matter of difficulty, out of stories to shew the precise time, when such great and sudden alterations befell in Church or Cōmon-wealth: but in the latter kinde it is very difficult, and for the most part impossible. When a great tree beeing torne by a tempest, ingentem traxit [...] ruinam, euery man obserueth it: but who can tell when a great and thick timber-tree be­ginneth first to rotte? The Historians precisely set down the yeer and day, wherein the Temple of Diana was burned by Herasastratus, and Saint [Page] Paul's Steeple in London by lightning: but who can out of any Story, or otherwise, designe the day, or yeere, when Paul's Church beganne to decay? yet no man that now seeth it, maketh que­stion, but that it is very much ruined: the beame out of the timber, and stone out of the wall, cry for spee­dy reparations. By the Iesuites argument, an a­ged decrepid man, all gray-headed, might for­sweare and out-face his Age, because no man, nor perhaps himselfe obserued when hee be­ganne to grow old first, or had his first gray haire on his head or beard. Our Sauiour very fitly compares heresies to tares, which wee see when they are growne, though wee see them not in their first growth, or as they grow. No man can perceiue the index in a Watch, or finger in a Diall to wagge or stirre: yet hee that going abroad, when it points to one a clock, and returning home, findeth it points to six, or twelue a clock, knoweth infallibly, that it hath mooued, and that no small space. In like maner, though wee cannot, in all particular points of difference be­tweene vs and the Church of Rome, designe the moment of time, when corruptions and innouations stole in: yet finding the doc­trine and manners of the Church at one point (as it were) in the Primitiue times, and in latter Ages at a farre distant point, nay quite opposite; wee know, that the finger hath mooued, that is, that great changes, and alterations, and innouations haue beene. Shall wee deny, that there is ido­latry [Page] in the world, because wee know not who was the first Idolater; nor precisely, when men first fell from true Religion? Bellarmine and some others fetch it from some of Noah's posterity af­ter the flood: butHaerm [...]n Luangel. Barradus endeuoreth to prooue, that the tares of idolatry were sowne in the world before the flood, yet it appeares on no record, who was the first Idolater in the world. Some of Noah's posterity degenerated from the true worship & seruice of God, to Gentilism and superstition; yet who can demonstrate the time when, or the place where they first began to adulterate the true seruice of God, with infinite abuses and abominations? How did the Scribes and Pharises, at the comming of Christ, corrupt the doctrine of the Law with false glosses, and abrogate it with their owne traditions? Yet no man can shew the originall or first deuiser of all their false glosses and vaine traditions. To come neerer to our aduersaries: The Fathers in theSess. vigess. 2. caenone 9. decre­tum de obser­u [...]ndis et eui­tandis in cele­bratione Missa. Councell of Trent acknowledge, that many corruptions & abuses haue crept into the Masse it self, eyther by the fault of times, or negligence and wickednesse of men. Cùm multaiam, siue tem­porum vitio, siue hominum incuria et improbitat [...], ir­repsisse videantur, quae à tanti Sacrificij dignitate ab­horreant, &c. Sith many things, through the fault of times, or the negligence and wickednesse of men, haue seemed to haue crept in (to the Masse) which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a Sacrifice, wee appoint, &c. Yet when these [Page] abuses crept in, and by whose fault, neither doe they there, neither can any Papist punctually de­monstrate. The Physicians iudge of their pati­ents two manner of waies; eyther à decubitu, that is, from the time of their lying downe, and yeel­ding themselues to their bed; or ab actionibus la­sis, that is, from the time that their appetites, and disgestion, and other faculties, sensibly faile in dooing their functions. In like manner are we to iudge of the diseases of the Church: some wee may àdecubitu, from her apparant declining in iudgement to error: but other, which we can­not so iudge certainely of, yet wee may most in­fallibly by the other meanes, ab actionibus lasis, from her sensible failings in her vitall faculties and functions, viz. Preaching of the Word, Ad­ministration of the Sacraments, and exercise of Ecclesiasticall discipline. To cloze vp this note; Though many learned Protestant Diuines haue wrote to good purpose touching the first leake in Peters ship, yet none seemeth to mee to hit the point more fully, then our excellently learned Rainolds.Rainol. prae­lect. 1. de libris Apo [...]ryp [...]is. Primò ait, Gentilitios, deinde Iudaicos ri­tus, opiniones, concupiscentias ingruisse, ea quasi semina [...] exemplorum et placitorum fuisse, haec primùm per exig [...]a non internosci, inter dum conspici, et coerceri, p [...]st sen­sim augescere magis magisque, tum confirmari et gras­sari latiùs; donec ad extremum, Religionis facies tota, quasi cancro exaesae, immutata & Ecclesia Romana ex sancta et fideli profana et perfid [...] facta est. Ita quae Apo­stolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita, ea pòst à pa­tribus [Page] caepere queri, ambigi. Quae priscis [...] scrupulum m [...]heba [...], ea probabilia visa sunt [...] à rece [...]ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebantur [...] ­ra. Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt, [...]odie [...] defendunt pertinaciter, et dissentientes [...] First, Heathenish, and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in: these were the seedes of ill examples and orders, or customes: these, at the first beeing small, were not obserued; sometimes they were spied, and checked. Afterwards, by degrees, they more and more increased, then were they confirmed and spred further; till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out, as it were with a Canker; and the Church of Rome, [...] and faithfull spouse, became a profane and dis­loyall strumpet. So those things, which in the Apostles time were vnheard of, after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers▪ Those things which the an [...]ient Doctors made scruple of, seemed probable to some, and were held true by the later School-men & Canonists. Those things wch they held but as opinions, the Papists at this day defend obstinately, and con­demne all that dissent from them. Iust as Velleius Velleius Pater. histor. Rom. l. 2. Paterculus reports of the Romane State; that, degenerating from the antient vertue and glory, it fell maturè à rectis in vitia, à vitijs in prana, pr [...]uis in praecipitia; from good to bad, from bad to worse, from worse to worst of all: so the Roman Church, in tract of time, fell from certain truths, to doubtfull Tenets; from doubtfull Tenets, [...] [Page] manifest errors; from manifest errors, at last to heresies: where we now finde them, and there leaue them, because they are resolued there to stick.

The generall Conclusion.

The Protestant Church, according to the distinctions and Assertions premised, hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible.

Thus much of the first Question pro­pounded by the Iesuite, touching the Vi­sibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages.

The second Question touching the Cata­logue of names, follows.

Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages.
The second Question.

WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors?

  • To this Question I an­swer, as to the former, by
    • Distinctions.
    • Assertions.

The first Distinction.

Visible Protestants are either,

Such as subscribe to the harmony of Pro­testant Confessions, in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion;

Or such as haue deliuered, either impli­citly, or explicitly, [...], positiuely, or [...], by way of opposition, some point or points of Protestant Doctrine; especial­ly, if it cannot be proued, that they held any doctrine de fide, repugnant to the Protestants faith, or different from them in any point of moment, or very materiall, much lesse fun­damentall.

In this Question, neither is it reasonable, nei­ther indeed doth the Iesuite demand, that wee [Page] should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense, but in the later onely. His words are, c. 1. p. 11. For auoiding of all mis-taking, and consequent­ly, needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes, M. Fisher in his Question requireth, first, that names of men in all Ages be set down: whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants. Se­condly, that those men, whose names they set downe, bee shewed out of good Authors, to agree in houlding some points of faith, in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques. Thirdly, that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher, that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another, and from the present Protestant Doctrine.

The second Distinction.

The Names of Protestants are of two sorts;

Proper; as, Bertram, Lollard, Dulcinus, Cal­uin, Beza, Iewell, &c.

Appellatiue; as, Protestants, Gospellers, Re­formers, Albingenses, Waldenses, Lionists, Pic­cards, Turlepins; and generally, all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants, to distinguish themselues from others; or cast vpon them by way of reproach, by their Aduersaries whose re­proaches they (and wee) accounted their glory.

In this Question, although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense, yet he cannot be [Page] so grossely ignorant, as not to knowe, that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church (euen à posteriori) to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages. No man doubteth, that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time, to produce that sa­cred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal; albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down, neither can any man li­uing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them. No Geographer will euer make question, but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa, and diuerse parts of Asia, vnder the Turk and Tartar, knowne by the names of Abyssens, Maronits, Cophti, Arme­nians, Georgians, or the like: and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture, nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them. For my part, I know but one Greek Christian, sometime Student in Oxford; Me­trophanes Critopulus.

The third Distinction.

These words, Protestants are to be named, may ad­mit of a double construction;

Either that names ought to be produced, and that we are bound to produce them, to proue the Visibility of our Church; as if, without such producing, the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice [Page] Or that such names may bee produced, and that there are such Records yet extant, out of which wee are able to makes a Cata­logue of Protestant professors.

In this question, the Iesuite holdeth, that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced, that is, ought to bee produced, and must of necessitie, to proue the visibility of our Church: but hee denieth it in the second sense, that is, that such names can bee produced. On the contrary, my Tenets are, that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense, that is, are [...] ­minable; but not in the first sense. Though wee need not make any such Catalogue, yet ex super­abundanti, I refuse not to doe it: our cause is so richly furnished, that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it, for the reasons partly al­ledged in the conference, partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof.

The fourth Distnction.

Good Authors are of two sorts;

Of the first rank: and such are Classicke, Theological or Historical Authors; against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except, but both account them of great worth and credit.

Of the second ranke: and such are those Authors, who though they are not of any singular or eminent note, yet they may bee tearmed good, according to the ages in which they liued, which afforded no better.

[Page] In this question, I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only, but admit also of those of the second. For, as when the people atBodin. de rep. ex Liuio. Capua were so incensed against the Senatours, that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too; a wise man among them aduised them, before they put the ould Senatours to the sword, to thinke of fitter men to put in their places: which when they could not agree vpon, in the end it was resolued, that the ould should continue: In like manner, if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages, as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vp­on in so weightie a controuersie, as the Iesuites make this to bee; I require of the Iesuites, to produce fitter men, & better Authors, who liued in those times; & in case they cannot, then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues: for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde, not to make such as wee wish. And therefore Scaliger, as truly as tartly, reproueth Baronius, quod Annales faceret, non scri­beret, that he wrote not Annales, but made them out of his owne braine. A true Record, though neuer so foule-written and torne, is better then a forged Deed, though neuer so faire and legi­ble. Some later Papists, excepting against di­uers Authors alledged by vs, shall not disable those Authors, vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them. For exam­ple: [Page] though Genebrard, or Coccius, or [...] disgracefully of Abbas V [...]spergensis, or [...] C [...]r­dinalis, or Platina, or Auentinus, yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them, they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists. These cautions and distinctions premised, I will now set downe the state of this second question, in the Assertions following.

The first Assertion.

AMong the Professors of the Truth, there may be differences of iudgement; not onely touching rites, and ceremonies, and matters of discipline, but also touching points of doctrine, so the points be not main and fundamentall, or such as are cleerly [...]nd ex­pressely defined by the Church out of manifest Te [...]ts of Scripture. This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul:1. Cor. 3. 12. 15, &c.If any man build on this Foundation, gold, &c. or hay and stubble, &c. if any mans work shall be burnt, he shall suffer losse, but hee himself shall be saued, &c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine, without which a man can­not be saued; and doctrines built vpon the Foun­dation, which may be held, or not held, without danger of saluation, Saint Ambrose alludes:Comment. in Luc. lib. 5. c. 9. Si quae est Ec­clesiae, quae fi­dem respuat, nec Apostolicae praedicationis fundamenta retine at, ne quam labem possit aspergere, deserenda est. If there be any Church which refuseth faith, and [...]eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine, lest it should cast any spot on vs, it must bee forsaken. And Saint Prosp. de grat. et lib. arbi­tri. ad Ruffi­num. Pelagiana hae­resis quibus im­pietatum vene­ris viscera Ecclesiae atque ipsa vitalia Corpris Chri­sti voluerit oc­cupare, &c. Prosper; where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies. Some like the Pelagian, poisoning the bowels, and surprising the very vitals of Christs [Page] (mysticall) Body; others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart, and therefore not so dangerous.Aduers. haer. Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamen­tall, and not fundamentall. The former he cal­leth, Fidei regula [...], the rule of faith; the later, Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas, subtill questions con­cerning the Law of God: in which, he saith, we need not much seek the Fathers consent. Saint Lib. 1. contra Iul. Pelag. c. 6. Austen also, when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chryso­stome, laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinc­tion: ‘Sanctus, inquit,Iohannes Constantinopoli­tanusnegat, esse in paruulis originale peccatum:’ ‘Ho­ly, saith he, Iohn of Constantinople denieth, that o­riginall sinne is in little children.’ ‘Absit, vtCon­stantinopolitanus Iohannesde baptismate parvu­lorum, eorum (que) à chirographo liberatione per Christum, tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis, maxime (que) Romano In­nocentio, Carthaginensi Cypriano, Cappadoci Basilio, Gregorio Nazianzeno, Gallo Hilario, MediolanensiresistatAmbrosio. Alia sunt in qui­bus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi at (que) optimi re­gulae catholicae defensores (salua fidei compage) non con­sonant: & alius aliò, vna de re, meliùs aliquid dicit & veriùs. Hoc autem, de quo nunc agimus, ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta:’ ‘GOD forbid, that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children, and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing, should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops; e­specially, [Page] Innocent, Bishop of Rome, Cyprian of Carthage, Basil of Cappadocia, Gregorie of Nazi­anzen Hilarie of France, and Ambrose of Mil­lain. Some things there are, in which the most learned, and best defenders of the catholique rule (the bond of faith preserued) do somtimes not agree among themselues: and one, in some one thing, saith somewhat better and righter than another. But this, wherein now we deal, belongeth to the very grounds of faith.’

Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction, neither we, nor the Romane Church, nor the Greek, nor any Church now in Christendome, is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age, much lesse in all Ages. And therefore, if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church, a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held, not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith, but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions, I must aduise him, in the words of Constantine the Great, spoken to Nouatus, to make a ladder, and go vp to heauen alone. As the Fathers differ from vs in some things, so also they differ among themselues: yet, as they esteemed themselues (notwithstanding these dif­ferences) to be members of the same Catholick Church; so doo we esteem the said Fathers, pro­fessors of our Protestant Doctrine. Our Aduer­saries lay claim to them also; and yet they can­not deny, but that the Fathers dissent from them [Page] in some points of no small moment. Papias, the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist, did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error: and Iustin Martyr, Iraeneus, Lactantius, and the Fathers ge­nerally (before Saint Ierome's time), had their teeth set on edge therewith.Ioseph. Scal. Notae in nouum Testamentum. Scaliger, well seen in Antiquity, obserues, Omnes veteres Christianos, etiam infra aetatem Augustini, putâsse, animas tam piorum quàm impiorum in centro terrae, tanquam quo­dam conceptaculo, expectare diem iudicij: quod Ter­tullianus eleganer dixit, In candidâ expectare diem iudicij. Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus, quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt: All the antient Christians, yea, euenor within. before the time of Saint Augustine, thought, the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly, in the centre of the earth, as it were in some receptacle, to expect the day of iudgement: which Tertullian elegantly calls, Allud. ad Ro. Magistr. qui candidati, &c. In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement. Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs, whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Para­dise at one leap or jump. Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion? SaintLib. 2. Ep. 3. Siquis de Ante­cessoribus nostris vel ignor anter, vel simpliciter, non hoc obserua­uit & tenuit, quod nos domi­nus docuit, &c. potest simpliciter eius per indul­gentiam domini venia concedi, &c. Cyprian fin­deth great fault with those, who before his time administred the Sacrament without wine, vsing water in stead of it: If any of our Ancestors, either ignorantly, or simply, hath not obserued and kept that which our Lord hath taught vs, &c. through our Lords indulgency, pardon may bee granted to his simplicity. This he proueth to be a grosse error, and a foule abuse; yet he excludeth not them who are tain­ted [Page] with this spot, from hope of saluation. And Saint Cyprian himself had reason to censure cha­ritably an errour in others, because himself nee­ded at least a pardon of course for his opinion touching re-baptizing: for, his zeal against He­reticks transported him so farre, that he rejected and disannulled Baptisme administred by them: whereby he may seem to touch dangerously vp­on the rock of the Donatists heresie: yet Saint Lib. 1. contra Donatistas. c. 18 Quid ergo? ille vir sanctus de Baptismo aliter sentiens quam se res habebas, quae posteae pertrac­tata & diligen­tissima conside­ratione firmatae est, in catholicae vnitate perman­sit, & charitatis vbertate com­pensatum est, & pas [...]ionis fasce purgatum. Austen doubteth not to affirm, that he made a recompence for this his errour, by the aboun­dance of his charity in his life, and plentifull ef­fusion of his bloud for the testimony of Christ at his death. As it was said of Augustus; Tacit. annal. Pom­peij statuas erigendo, suas confirmauit; that by erec­ting Pompey's statues, hee made his owne stand the longer: so we may truely say, that Saint Au­sten, by framing the former Apology for Cyprian, made the easier way in the mindes of all indiffe­rently-affected, for his owne defence. I would, that this most judicious Doctor of the Church (for whom all the Christian Churches striue; as the Greek Cities, for Homer) nihil quicquam hu­mani pateretur. But I haue learned fromLyrinen. ad­uersus h [...]res. Vincen­tius, Nuditatem reuerendi patris nèque meis temerare oculis, neque alienis patere velle, sed auersum tegere; quod est erratum sancti viri, nec approbâsse, nec prodi­disse. All that I haue already intimated, rather than expressed in this kinde, is to shew, that eue­ry prick is not a wound; euery spot, not a s [...]ain in an ancient Writer; that euery difference in [Page] judgement, makes not a rent in the Church; and consequently, that although Waldo, or Wicklef, or Husse, or any other fore-runner of Luther's refor­mation in our daies, might haue some priuate differences between themselues, and from vs, as the ancient Doctors had, yet that these discords hinder not, but that they and wee may beare a part in some concent and harmony of belief on earth, and sing the same Halleluiah in heauen. As for those foule aspersions of Sorcery, Manichisme, maintenance of impurity, and subiecting God to the diuell, and the like, laid vpon the Waldenses and Albingenses, Wicklef and the Hussi [...]es, or any of them, we shall easily blowe them away, euen by the breath of our Aduersaries, in the declaration of the next conclusion.

The second Assertion.

The Professors of the truth haue had alwaies false scandals laid vpon their faith and life. Our blessed Redeemers most holy Doctrine and sanctified life, escaped not the slanders of malicious tongues set on fire of hell. Saint Stephen was tra­duced forActs 6. 11 blasphemie against God and Moses; Saint Paul, forActs 24. 14 Heresie. I tremble to rehearse what malice hath broached against the Saints and Martyrs in the Primitiue Church; as that Minutius Felix in Octa­uio. Audi [...] eos turpiss [...]i pecu­dis caput asini consecratum, ineptae nescio qua persuasione venerari, &c. they worshipped an Asse head, et antistitū suorū geni­talia, that they murthered Tert. apolog. c. 7. Dicimur sceleratissimi de sacramento infanticidij, & pabulo inde, & post conuiui­um incesto, quod euersores luminum canes, lenone se tene­brarum, & l bi­dinum impiarū inuerecundia procuren [...]. Infants, and sed vpon their flesh, and licked their bloud; that, putting out the lights, they committed incest, and all manner of filthinesse, one [Page] with another. Let Rubius, and Parsons, and Sander [...], and Coccius, and Cocleus, and B [...]lsack, rid the bot­tom of their rancorous stomack against Walde, & Wiclef, and Hus, and Luther, and Caluin: they can­not voyd worse matter of fiction, then such as the Heathen vented against the Primitiue Christi­ans. But as God, in former times, vsed the tongue of Pliny, and diuers other Gentiles, to licke out those blots which were cast on the Christians by Gentiles: so, in these later times also, hath God made the tongues of Papists themselues to serue as spunges, to wipe away Popish aspersions vpon the aboue-named Professors of truth, For the 9. Articles obiected in particular to the Waldenses by Antoninus, Prateolus, Lutzenburgius, & Parson; DoctorLib. de success. et statu eccles. c. 6. à para­graph vicess. ad sinem. Vsher, now Lord Bishop of Methe, hath so cleared them, euen by the testimonies of Papists, from those erronious assertions and scan­dalous aspersions, that the Papists themselues seeme to be ashamed of their shameless slander [...]. It shall suffice, for the strengthning of my for­mer conclusion, to call in three or foure Papists of note, for their purgation: they are Du Hallyan, Rainerius, Thuanus, and Cocleus. Hallyan speakes but lispingly, because he durst not speake plaine, yet hee saith enough to conuince the enemies of the truth, of shamefull calumniation.Hist. Gal. l. 10. The prin­cipall point, saith he, which brought the Wal­denses into vniuersall hatred, and which charged them with more euill opinions then they had, was the libertie they tooke to blame the diss [...] ­lutenes [Page] of Princes and of the Clergie, yea to tax the Popes themselues: this was the Helena that wrought all their troubles, asContra Wald. c: 4. Magnam habet spec [...]m pietatis, eo quod coram homi i­bus iuste vt [...], & b [...]ne omnia de Deo credunt, & om­nes articulos qui in Symbolo con [...]ine [...]tur. Rainerius the In­quisitor ingenuously confesseth: This sect hath a great shew of godlinesse, because they liue iustly before men, and beleeue all things well concerning God, and all the articles contained in the Creed: solummodò Ro­manam Ecclesiam blasphemant et Clerum; onely they speake euill of the Church of Rome and of the clergie.Lib. 6.Thuanus, after hee had set downe truly the o­pinions of the Waldenses, wherein they con­curre with the Reformed Churches at this day, addeth, His praecipuis et certis eorum doctrinae capiti­bus, alia affict a sunt de coniugio, resurectione, anima­rum statu post mortem, &c. To these especiall and certaine heads of their doctrine, there are other added concerning wedlock, the resurrection, the state of soules after death, &c. Neuer did any mans stomacke more boyle with rancor and ma­lice against any, then Cocleus his against Wiclef; whomHist. Hussit. l. 2. Multo gra­u [...]orae esse credi­der [...]m Wiclefi tormenta, quam sunt apud in­feros Iudae pro­ditoris, vel Ne­ronis, &c. hee condemneth to greater torments in hell, then Iudas or Nero: yet the truth extorted from Cocleus himselfe so much, as (in the iudge­ment of any indifferent man) may cleare him and his scholer Hus frō those erroneous Articles that were laid to Hus his charge.Cocl. ibid. En isti Episcopi hortantur me ad reuocandum & abiurandum quod ego facere horresco, m [...]tu­ens ne in con­spectu Dei [...]am mendax, & lae­dam conse [...]en [...]i­am meam. Et post, page 111. Protestabatur, se ad mortem du [...]i propter er­rores [...]bi falso imputatos a fal­fis testibus. When hee was required by the Bishops, to abiure the doctrine hee had taught, he refused so to do, lest he should wound his con­science and the truth of God; but withall protesteth, and that solemnly, and that three seuerall times, and that at the instant of his death, that hee neuer [Page] held any of those Articles which the false witnesses deposed against him, but held, and taught, and wr [...]te al­waies the contrary. In a word, hee breathed out his last gaspe, with a complaint against his false accusers, for laying to his charge doctrines hee neuer held; taking it vpon his death, that hee taught nothing but the truth of the Gospel, which he would now seale with his bloud. Hee had no sooner thus cleared his inno­cencie, but his enemies set fire on the [...]agot, and burnt the Saint of God to ashes. And shall wee imagine, that Wiclef, with whom Iohn Hus praied, that his soule might bee after death, whose pic­ture Ierome of Prague had in his studie, painted with a garland about it; and the Vniuersitie of Oxford crowned his person and doctrine with a more fragrant Garland of praises; whose doc­trine was not onely fauoured by diuers Nobles, but also theVid. M. S. Wiclef. in Biblio them, Bodl [...]i, &c third part of the Clergie of England: I say, shall wee so much wrong our iudgements, to imagine, that a man of so rare learning both diuine and humane, so excellently read in Scrip­tures, should bee the Father of such monstrous bastardly opinions, as are fathered vpon him by some of the Fathers in the Councell of Con­stance, viz.God is bound to obey the diuell. Deus tenetur obedire diab [...]lo, and the like? No, no. That diuel was a lying spirit in the mouth of his accusers, which afterwards posses­sed the Romish Priests and Iesuits, and by them vented these prodigious slanders vpon our doctrine; affirming, that wee teach,Cam. rat. 8 Deus est author & causa pecca­ti, omnia peccatae paria, Christus desperationis vocem emisit. that God is the author of sin; and that all sinnes are equall in [Page] Gods sight; that a man may lie for Gods ho­nour; Bristow mot.that Protestants are bound to auoid all good workes, and many the like Assertions, much more condemned, and substantially re­futed by Protestants, then any Papists whatso­euer.

TheLact. diuin. institut. l. 1. c. 21 Apud Lindum Herculis s [...]cra sunt, quorum a ca [...]ter is longe di­uersus est ritus, siquidem non eu­phemia s [...]d ma­ledictione & ex­ecration. [...]us ce­lebrantur. Lyndians, as Lactantius reporteth, wor­shipped God by execrations and maledictions. Lyn­danus and other of our Papists, as it seemeth, are akin to them: they think, they doo God good seruice, in blaspheming and scandalizing the truth of God, and the professors thereof. The best is, illi linguarum, nos [...]urium Domini sumus: their tongues are their owne; so our eares are our owne: they are masters of their speech; we, of our beliefe: they may speake what they list; but wee are not bound to beleeue, but what wee see proofe and reason for.

The third Assertion.

God hath, and alwaies had, many true seruants and worshippers of him in secret; whose names cannot bee produced nor rehearsed by an exact Catalogue. I sup­pose, no Papist wil deny this conclusion, because it is grounded on the Oracle of God. When 1 Kings 19 14. & 18 Eliah complained, The children of Israel haue for­saken thy Couenant, throwne down thine Altars, and slain thy Prophets with the sword; and I, euen lonely, am left, &c. the Oracle answereth, Yet I haue reser­ued to my self seuen thousand in Israel, &c. Such were they that sighed for all the abominations [Page] that were in Ierusalem: vpon whose fore-head, God commanded aEzek. 9. 4marke to bee set. Such were those, who though they remained most of them in the outward communion with the Church of Rome, yet groned vnder that Babylonish yoke, and in heart abhorred the idolatrie and supersti­tion raigning in that Church; and they desired, with sighes and teares, a reformation before Lu­ther. Of whom,De refor. eccl. Petrus de Aliaco the Cardinall thus writeth: As there were seuen thousand that had not bowed to Baal: so it is to bee hoped, that there are some that desire the Churches reformation. ThoughRain. contrae Wald. c. 3. Inquisitioni haereticorum frequ [...]n­ter interful, & computatae sunt scholae in diocaesi Paetauiensi 41. Rainerius speak but of one and fortie schools, and somewhat a lesser number of Chur­ches of the Waldenses, yet no man will make question, but that there might bee in all the world very many more; especially, [...]ith all those Churches and Schools hee speaketh of, were in one Diocesse. WhenL. 4. Petierunt castellum cui Bechnigne nom [...]e est, vt a [...]t Arne­us, [...]ctauo f [...]re milliario ab op­pido quo [...] nunc Tabor, &c. C [...]r­citer trigmta [...]illia hom [...]num conue [...]e [...]unt, atque ibi trecē ­tas mensas in pat [...]ntibus cam­p [...]s erexerunt, ex quibus Sa­cramentum Caluini admi­nistrarunt. Cocleus mentioneth thir­tie thousand who, at the Castle of Bechnigne, eight miles from Tabor, receiued the Communion vnder both kindes, maugre the decree of the Councel of Constance: will any man doubt, but there were many thousands more, who receiued the Sacra­ment in like manner at other places? When [...]. 10. D [...] Hallyan reports, that the armie of the Albingen­ses consisted of about the number of 100 thousand fighting men; euerie mans discretion will adde, that there must needs bee among them a greater number of all sorts, old men, women, and chil­dren, which were not able to beare Arms. And [Page] thereforeRerum Angl. l. 2. c. 13. In la­tissim [...]s Gaelliae, Hispaniae, Italiae, Germaniae pro­uincijs tam mul­ti infecti hac pe­s [...]e esse dicuntur, vt multiplicati esse supra nu­merum maeris videantur. Gulielmus Neubrigensis speaking of them, saith, that their number in France, Sapin, Ita­ly, and Germany, was multiplied aboue the sand of the sea: Rainerius the Popish Inquisitors own words amount to neere as much,Contra Wald. c. 4. Haec secta generalior est omnibus alijs quae adhuc sunt vel fuerunt: This sect is the most generall or farthest spred of all sects that euer were: fere enim nulla est terra in qua haec secta non sit: for there is almost no sect in all the world, in which this sect hath not a part. I con­clude therfore this Assertion with the words of Epist. 78. Synesius, [...]: What need we Catalogues? we are to fight with hands, not with names.

The fourth Assertion.

Some Ages of the Church afford very few Authors of note, whose Writings haue come to posterity. Who­soeuer peruseth the Church story, digested into Centuries or Annales, or cast but a glance of his eye vpon the Catalogues of Writers made by Saint Ierom, Suidas, Photius, Gennadius, Abbas, Tritemius, Illyricus, and Bale, shall finde the A­ges of the Church, to resemble the Starres of the skie. In some parts wee see many glorious and eminent Stars; in others, few of any remarkable greatnesse; and in some, none but blinkards and obscure ones: In like manner, in some Ages of the Church, we may behold many worthy and glorious Lights, like Starres of the first or se­cond magnitude; in others, few of any note or [Page] bright luster; and in some, none but obscure and vnknowne Authors; resembling the least and obscurest Starres in the skie. After we haue pas­sed the eightth Age of the Church, wee fall in­to Cimaerian darknesse.Lib. 4. de Rom. pontif. c. 12. Bellarmine cannot speake of the ninth Age with patience, Saeculo hoc nullum extitit indoctius aut infelicius, quo qui Mathematica aut Philosophiae operam dabat, vulgò Magus putabatur. Then this Age, there was none more vnlearned or vnhappie; in which, whosoeuer studied the Mathematicks or Philosophy, hee was com­monly accounted a Magician. [...]unead 9. Mirum est, quanta omnium bonarum artium obliuio per id tempus mortae­lium aenimos ob­repserit, vt ne in pontificibus qui­dem v [...]isue principibus quicquid illu [...]e­ret quod vitam i [...]uare possit. Sabellieus is at a stand in admiring at the palpable Egyptian darknesse of this Age. It is wonderfull to consider how great forgetfulnesse of all good Arts, during this time, did steale vpon mens mindes. So that there was no light of knowledge found, either in the Popes or Bi­shops, or any other Princes, which might further life.Genebrard. Chronol. lib. 4.Genebrard, after a sort, blesseth himselfe from this Age▪ Infelix dicitur hoc saeculum exhaustumb [...] ­minibus doctrina & ingenio claris, sine etiam claris principibus & pontificibus. This is called an vnhap­py Age, empty of men, famous in learning and wit, yea, without famous Princes or Popes. Nay, what the Physicians speak of slegme, It is an hu­mor, ne ad ma [...]la quidem bonus, not good for any thing, no; not to nourish and prouoke to vice; so it may bee said of this Age, that it yeelded no eminent men, Catholiques or Hereticks. And therefore you shall finde in Prae [...]olus his Cata­logue of Sectaries, a great baulk in this Age. And [Page] S. N. Appendix to the Antidote. Norice a Iesuiticall Quack saluer professeth, That in this Age no new heresie beganne, and consequent­ly, that he wanteth drugges for his Antidote. But both Prateolus, and his bold borrower Norice, are much beholding to the Magdeburgenses, who handsomly and trimly excuse the matter, saying, F [...]gisse Haereticos, atque in praelatos ac monachos se abdi­disse; that the Hereticks which seemed to bee flowne away (in this Age), were not indeed vanished out of the world, but lay close, and hid themselues vnder Bishops Rochets, and Monkes Coules; where neither Prateolus nor Norice durst to search for them. As this ninth Age, so the tenth, and some others after were very barren of learned Writers. And therefore no maruaile, if the haruest wee gather in these Ages, of the professors of the truth, and defenders thereof by writing, bee very thinne: for, to leaue an Armie of bastard apocryphall Authors (as the Papists do, to maintain the Popes title), or in so weighty a cause to rely on the ragged regiment of Au­thors mustred vp, in Orthodoxographia & bibliotheca veterum, et Epistolae obscurorum virorum, &c. I hold it rather a dishonor, and disaduantage, then any credit or aduantage to the truth.

The fift Assertion.

Since Boniface the Third's time, in the seauenth Age, and much more since Hildebrand in the tenth, such was the greatnesse of the Pope, and transcendent power of the See of Rome, that few durst or might write [Page] freely against the errors and vsurpations thereof. And therefore it is not to be maruailed, that we haue not many; but it is rather to bee maruailed, that wee haue any who haue displayed the abomi­nations of the Whore of Babylon. The Answer of a Poet in Augustus time, is very famous; who beeing demanded why he replied not vpon Au­gustus, who had writ against him a bitter Satyr, cleanly wiped his lips, and said, Periculosum est [...] [...]um scribere, qui potest proscribere: It is a dangerous thing to giue him a dash with a pen, who is like to requite it with a slash of a sword; to obiect against him in inke, who can returne an answer in blood.

Iuuenal Satyr. Tacit. Eorum corporae in vsum noctur [...]i luminis comburebantur.
Pone Tigelinum, teda lucebis in illa:
Qua stantes ardent, & fixo gutture fumant.

Set the Pope or Church of Rome out in her colours, and shee will make you a light of the Church, by burning you at a stake. Platina and Occham long ago, vpon iust cause and lamentable experience, cast this bloodie aspersion on the Pope and his Adherents. Occham frameth his inditement in these words: Vt intentum [...] horrendum ad finem possint perducere, defendentes v [...] ­ritatem prosequuntur, interimunt, innoxium sang [...] ­nem fundunt: That they may bring their horrible purpose to passe, they prosecute such as main­taine the truth, murther them, and shead their innocent bloud. Platina [...] in these words: [...] mandata [...] Christi, quise Vicarium eius dicit, & cred [...] in verba Dei exurit: Hee condemneth the com­mands of Christ, who professeth and calleth [Page] himselfe his Vicar, and burneth such as beleeue in the words of God. Laurentius Valla, for wri­ting freely against the forged donation of Con­stantine, lost his libertie and Countrie too. Oc­cham was so bold to strike at the Popes triple Crowne, and to oppose some doctrines of the Church of Rome, that hee was therefore ex­communicated by the Pope, and so grieuously persecuted, that he was constrained to flie to the Emperor for succour: to whom hee made this reasonable motion; Tu defende me gladio ego defen­dam te calamo: Defend thou mee by thy sword or power, I will defend thee by my word or pen. Were the Waldenses and Albingenses murthered by thousands, for Heresie? No:Contra Wal­dens. c. 4. Rainerius clea­reth them of that; Omnia rectè de Deo credunt: They beleeue all things rightly concerning God. Why then? Solummodo Romanam Ecclesians blasphemant & Clerum. They speake euill of the Church of Rome and the Clergie. The opini­ons of the Albingenses,Histor. lib. 10. saith Hallian, did not so much stir vp the hate of the Pope and great Princes a­gainst them, as the libertie of speech did, wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and disolutenes of the said Princes and Clergie, yea to tax the vices and actions of the Popes themselues. This was the principall point that brought them into vniuersall hatred. What was it so inflamed the Pope against the Hussites, that hee proclaimed two Croisadoes, and im­ploied great armies against them? Their admi­nistring the Sacrament in both kindes, maugre [Page] the sacrilegious decree of the Councell of Con­stance? No. ThatCocle. l. 7. Hist. Hussit. he could and did dispence with all. It was that article of the Hussites, gathe­red out of their writings by Alanus. Papaest [...]estia de qua habetur in Apocalypsi, 12. Datum est ei, bellum facere cum sanctis. The Pope is the beast, where­of it is said in the 12. of the Reuelation; It is gran­ted to him (the beast) to warre with the Saints. Hincillae lachrymae. Nay rather, Hinc ille cr [...]or. This kindled such a fire against the deare seruants of Christ, that nothing could or did quench it, but their bloud shed in great abundance.

For some hundreds of yeeres,Assert.the chiefe Records and Monuments of the Westerne Church haue been in the hands of our Romish aduersaries, who haue partly bur­ned them, partly corrupted them, and partly kept them from vs. And herein they deale with vs, as Thera­menes Bodin. de repub.his Colleagues dealt with him: who ha­uing a purpose to question him for his life, first strooke his name out of the Catalogue of the gouernours of the Citty, and then articled a­gainst him. And when he pleaded the priuiledge of all those whose names were written in the Catalogue, they barred him from this defence, saying, That he could not plead that priuiledge, because his name was not in the Catalogue. In like manner our aduersaries take away from vs, or make away from vs our records; and then they non-sute vs, for want of euidence. Gregorie the great wrote manie things preiudiciall to the Popes pretensions and vsurpations, and there­fore [Page] Sabinianus his successor burnt diuers of his bookes, asPlatina in Sabin. Platina intimates: and Sixtus Senens [...]s Lib. 4. Maiorem par­tem operum Gregori [...] sta­tim post mortem eius amul [...] fla­gitiosissimi ex­cusserunt.expresly affirmeth, That his most wicked emu­lators did burne the greater part of Gregories works, presently after his death. Auentin. an­nal. Boior, lib. 5. Hildebrand. in Templo Dei, sedet supra omne quod colitur, extolli­tur. Non solum, ad ambitionem suam occulen­daem, fabulas comminiscittur, annales corrum­pit, res gestas in­uertit, sed etiam coelestia Oracu­la adulterat. Auentine brandeth Pope Hildebrand with the marke of a corrupter of Chronicles, and a razer out of them the things that were done. Cocleus Coc. hist. Hussit. l. 2. writeth of Hus, Dum duceretur ad locum poenae, videns in coemiterio libros suos comburi, subrisit proper eam stultitiam: While hee was led to the place of execution, seeing in the Church-yard his bookes to bee burned, hee smiled at that follie. And his smiling may seeme propheticall: for, notwithstanding all the meanes that they could possibly vse, to root him and his writings out of the memory of men; yet both (through Gods mercy) are preserued; and some few works also of Wicklef. But the great bulk of them, not muchCocleus lib. 1. Scripsit quidam Episcopus ex Anglia esse [...]ibi adhuc bodie duo maximae Volumma, quae inde Sancti vndeantur aquare opera Augustini. inferior to the quanti­ty of Saint Austens works, could not escape the fire, beeing so narrowly searched after by the command of diuers Popes, yea andHen. 4. and Edw. 4. Kings too. If we might haue accesse to the Popes Library, we doubt not, but that wee should finde many more bookes written, both in Latine and Greek, against the Pope. This, Cope acknowled­geth in his Dialogues. As for corrupting an­tient Authors, and circumcising later, I referre all that desire to be satisfied in this point, to T. I. his Treatise of the corruptions, &c. as also to the Indices expurgatorij, Quiroga and Sanctouall.

[Page] The flourishing Fencer, Campian, in his first rea­son, termeth Protestants, difficiles Aristarch [...]s, [...] arrepta virgula censoria, si quae ad stomachum [...] fa­ciunt obliterant. But doe not Papists more truly deserue to bee censured censorious Aristarchi? For as Aristarchus vsed to raze out the verses of Homer, which hee liked not: so hee that hath but halfe an eie, may see, that the Romanists, in their Indices expurgatorij, blot out of all sorts of Authors, whatsoeuer liketh them no [...], or any way makes against them. But wee hope, wee shall shortly haue a Vindex for their Index. And therefore, leauing the further prosecution of this point, I will now set downe my last Asserti­on and generall conclusion.

Notwithstanding all the difficulties aboue­mentioned, The generall Conclusion.yet God hath not left his truth, though too much opposed, [...], to bee without witness in all Ages, as may appeare by the learned labors of diuers Protestants aboueRemon­strance, about the end. mentioned: out of whose large fields, as also mine owne particular obseruations, I haue gleaned a brief Catalogue, which may suffice to poynt out a Protestant suc­cessiue Church, from Age to Age.

The beginning of the Catalogue.
For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe, and maintaine in the Church of England, I alledge,

IN the first Age from Christs birth, to 100 yeeeres,

  • The twelue Apostles.
  • Saint Iohn Baptist.
  • Saint Mark.
  • Saint Luke.
  • Saint Paul, with his schollers, Titus, Timothy, and the Churches planted or watered by them.
  • Romanes, Corinthians, &c.
  • Clemens, about the yeere 90.
  • Ignatius, about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote.
  • The Tralians, Magnesians, Tarsians, Philadelphians, &c.
  • [Page] In the second Age, from 100. to 200.
  • Polycarpus, 140.
  • Iustin Martyr, 150.
  • Methodius, 155.
  • Dionysius Corinthiacus, 158.
  • Hegesippus, 160.
  • Melito Sardensis, 170.
  • Polycrates, cum Synodo Asia [...]ca, 180 Saint Irenaeus, 190.
  • Clemens Alexandrinus, 200.

These Professors of the truth ( [...] denying others) I alledge for the two [...] centuries: further we proceeded not in [...] Conference: and therefore, heere I [...] a stop for a time, and withall a challen [...] to M. Fisher, to set downe the names [...] his supposed Papists for these two [...] Ages, together with such poynts of [...] Romish Religion, as he will prooue [...] they maintained: which after hee ha [...] done, I will make good my witnesses, an [...] disprooue his, and then proceed to [...] succeeding Ages, euen vnto Luther, if [...] permit. Hic rhodus, hic saltus.

Hic modus, haec nostro signabitur area curr [...]

A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference, together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer (vnder the name of A. C.) to a Treatise intituled, The Fisher caught in his owne Net.

AS Velleius Paterculus obserues, that In the battell at Philippi, in which Brutus should haue taken Anthony to task; and Cassius Augustus; it fell out cleane contrary, so that Brutus met with Augustus, and Anthony mar­ched against Cassius: So it came to passe in this present combate. D. White prepared and proui­ded to encounter M. Fisher, his former Antago­nist; and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant, to deale in a second place with M. Sweet, if occa­sion were offered. Yet vpon a cunning trick of the Iesuite, discouered immediately before the Conference, it was then on the place of the [Page] meeting, resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse, that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher, and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibi­lity of the Protestants Church; and D. White (as there should bee cause) should take off M. Sweet, if he interposed, as also answer in the con­trary question propounded to the Iesuites, tou­ching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages. Thus D. Featly, who intended to be but an Assis­tant, contrary to his expectation, was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation. Wher­in, that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell, and satisfie his Auditory, hee set before his eies certaine rules, partly taken out of Scrip­ture, partly out of the antient Fathers, to direct his proceedings by them.

The first rule isPhil. 2. 3. Saint Paul's: Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory. God is not in the fire of contention, nor in the whirle-winde of pas­sion, but in the still voice of them, who in meek­nesse of spirit seeke the truth out of loue of truth it selfe, not of desire of victory. Nolunt Scriptu­r [...] ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt: The Scrip­tures will not instruct those, who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner. Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well:Veritas in pro­fundo dimersa. if the water bee cleere, we may easily discerne it; but if troubled, it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well, much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it. For [Page] this cause, D. Featly, in the beginning of the dis­putation, as is confessed by A. C.Page 15. earnestly be­sought M. Fisher to deale sincerely, as in the sight of God, setting aside all passion, and by-respects: and when M. Sweet propounded that condition, that all bitter speeches should be auoided, D. Featly with the rest, most willingly accepted of it, and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it.

The second rule isNaz. Apolog. 1. Nazianzens: [...]: It is the best order in all speech and actions, to begin and end with God. Accor­ding to which prescription, D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer, [...] and ended partly with aThanksgi­uing. doxologie, adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour, blessed for euer, at whose Name all knees must bow, both in heauen, and earth, and vnder the earth; partly, by an holy ad­juration: M. Fisher, I charge you, as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudge­ment.

The third rule isHa [...]res. 76. Epiphanius his; who obser­ueth in a Disputation against the Photinians, quòd adhibiti sunt, qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae diceban­tur, quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur: there were appointed Notaries, who did take that which was said on both sides, and their notes af­terward were signed by both parties. Accor­ding to which obseruation, M. Ailsbury was cho­sen and accepted of as Notary on both sides, and [Page] D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme, as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers: and this schedule, containing the substance of the argu­ments and Answers in the end of the Confe­rence, was sealed with three seales; the Earle of Warwicks, Master Boultons, and Master Bugges.

The fourth rule is Tertul. ad­uersus Iudaeos. T [...]rt [...]llians, first, to [...] the ground, and set vp as it were the goales, by determi­ning the state of the question. Summam quaestionis, saith he, certis line is determinemus, & aduersus Mar­cionem, L. 17. His lineis materiam clausimus, inter quas congredimur. According to which prescrip­tion, D. Featly, as soone as he receiued the Que­stion from M. Fisher, returned it in another pa­per, in which he briefly stated it.

The fift rule isAug. contra Cresc. l. 1. Saint Austens, to obserue Logick Forme in Disputation. Quid tu disputas, si disputare non noueris? Quid est aliud dialectica, quam peritia disputandi? Nonne etiam dialectice Christ us cum Iudaeis egit? Why dost thou offer to dispute, if thou knowest not how to dispute? What is Logick, but the Art of disputing? Did not Christ dis­pute Logically with the Iewes? And a little af­ter, Dialecticam nunquam doctrina Christiana for [...] ­dat: The Christian doctrine neuer feareth Lo­gick. According to which prescription, D. Featly desired, that both the opponent & respon­dent should bee tied to Logick Forme: for, nim­ble wits, like Proteus, will turne themselues into all Formes; and, vnlesse they bee held fast, and [Page] in a sort forced and wrung with theNex [...] Syllo­gistico. knots of Logicall Arguments, they wil neuer be brought to agnize the Truth. Aristotle speaks of certain Wouerus de Polymathia. Organa mechanica, artificiall Frames vsed in Greece, quae teneros infantium artus coercerent, ne in praua deflecterentur, sed concinna illorum forma nihil foedum aspectu aut distortū praeferret: which frames serued to keep straight the limbs and joynts of the infants, that they should not goe away, but keep due proportion, and a comely shape. Such artificiall instruments are Logick Formes: they serue to make vs to walk straight, [...], nei­ther treading inward nor outward in our dis­courses. To dispute without Logick, is to rule without a Ruler, or draw a Circle without a Compasse, or steer without a Card. In which respect, although M. Fisher were very vnwilling to be bound to his Logicall behauiour, yet D. Featly had great reason to require it of him, be­cause he bound himself to it, proposing all his Arguments in Logick Form, and disposing them in Logick Method; premising Arguments à pri­ori, before his Argument à posteriori; and Syllo­gismes, before his Induction; beginning at the top in the first Age, and descending to the later, according to the order of time, nature & dignity.

The most cunning Work-man that euer▪ wrought with the tools of naturall wit, forceth all Arguments into two kindes;

  • [...] or reprehensorie.
  • [...] or demonstratiue.

[Page] Elencticall or reprehensiue driue at an Aduer­sary.

Dicticall or demonstratiue aime at a Thesis or Position of our owne. The former sort serue to beat downe an enemies weapons on his owne head; the later, to make good our owne ground. The former may not vnfitly be called, [...] Arguments; the later, Simply and directly proo­uing. D. Featly, in this Disputation, made vse of both: first, of Elencticall Arguments, to discouer the weaknes of his Aduersaries; and then of Dicticall, to shew the strength of the Protestants cause, and the Visibility of their Church in all Ages.

The first Argument of the former sort was couched in these words: Although divine and infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of hu­mane History. Which may be thus propounded at large:

Whosoeuer propoundeth such a Question, in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Testimonies and Records, betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity.

But M. Fisher propoundeth a Question, in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records:

Therefore M. Fisher betraieth his grosse ig­norance in Diuinity.

The Maior, or first Proposition, was prooued [Page] byBel. l. 2. de Sacr. effec. c. 25 Bellarmine's confession; Historiae humanae fa­ciunt tantùm fidem humanam, cui subesse potest fal­sum: Humane Stories and Records beget onely an humane faith, or rather credulity subject to error. And it may bee more strongly confirmed by the testimony of Tertullian:De praescript. c. 16.Aliunde suadere possunt de rebus fidei, nisi ex Literis fidei? Can they otherwise perswade in matters of faith, than out of the Writ of faith? And Saint Augustine: De nat. et grat. c. 61. And Epist. 112. Si quid diuinarū Scripturarum perspicua firma­tur authoritate, sine vlla dubita­tione credendum est: alijs vero testibus & cre­dere vel non credere licet, &cSolis Canonicis debeo absolutum, sine vlla recusatione, consensum: I owe absolute consent, without any refusall, onely to the Canonicall Scriptures. The effect cannot exceed the cause; nor the con­clusion, both the premises: and therefore wee cannot build a diuine and infallible conclusion (such are all conclusions de fide) vpon meer hu­mane testimonies, which are not of infallible truth. All other humane Histories come short of the Apocryphall Books of Scripture: for, you rank them with the Canonicall Scriptures; and we giue them theZanch. de Relig. christ. & alij. next place to them: yet the testimonies out of the Apocryphal of Scrip­ture, may not be alleaged to ground any conclu­sion of faith vpon them, asRuf. in Symb. Ruffinus affirms in expresse words: Quae omniae legi quidem in Ecclesiis volucrunt, non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandam: All which Books they would haue read in the Churches, but not be produced to establish faith out of them.

The Minor or Assumption is thus prooued:

The perpetuall Visibility of the Church is a [Page] conclusion of faith, euidently grounded (as is confessed) on Christ's promise in Scripture.

But M. Fisher requireth in his Question, the perpetuall Visibility of the Church to be pro­ued out of meer humane Authors and Stories, expresly excluding Scripture:

Therefore M. Fisher propoundeth a Questi­on, in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records.

The second Elencticall or reprehensiue Argu­ment was couched in these words: Although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false s [...]pposals, &c. Which may be thus propounded at large.

That Question which is grounded vpon an euident false supposall, needeth not to bee dis­cussed, but ought rather to be exploded.

But M. Fishers Question is grounded vpon an euident false supposall:

Therefore M. Fishers Question needeth not to be discussed, but ought rather to bee explo­ded.

The Maior, or first Proposition, is euident in it self: for, to such a Question there needeth no other Answer to be giuen, but simply to deny the supposall.

The Minor, or second Proposition, was thus proued:

First, if the names of all Professors are not, nor euer were, vpon Record, then M. Fishers suppo­sall is false, viz. that A Protestant Church could [Page] not haue been visible in former ages, vnlesse the names of all visible professors can now bee shewed.

But all visible professors names are not, nor euer were on record, as it is certaine, and confes­sed by A. C. p. 33.

Therefore Master Fishers supposall is false; viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of those visible Professors could be shewed.

Secondly, if all ancient Records are not now extant, then it is no good Argument, to say, The names of visible Protestants in all ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record; therefore they were neuer vpon Record.

But all ancient Records are not now extant:

Therefore it is no good Argument, to say, that because the names of visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record; therefore they were neuer vpon Record.

These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot, and by his silence granteth it.

Thirdly, the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny, were visible men, yet cannot their pro­per names be shewed & proued out of good Au­thors: for, good Authors report, they had no proper names at all. With this rather tentatiue then serious instance, M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt: but Master Boulton, though he con­fessed in effect, that they were gon at the common Law: yet he sought to relieue them by the Chan­ [...], by saying, that Though those people had no pro­per [Page] names, yet they had some descriptions, and might bee knowne by some periphrasis. But it may bee re­plied,

1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name.

2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors, any particular description of these men, whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another; but onely a generall description, that They are a people in Africa, neere the hill Atlas, which haue no proper names; and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages, in a generall de­scription of certaine men, who opposed certaine errors against, and besides the Doctrine of Scripture, and especially the errors of the Church of Rome.

Fourthly, the Author and Head of the Here­tikes called Acephali, was a visible man, but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors: for those Hereticks were there­fore called Acephali, or headless, because the cer­tain Author and Head of that Heresie could ne­uer bee knowne. And heer, if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne, a man might truly say, that both himselfe, and his as [...]istant Master Sweet, and their good friend at a dead [...], Master Boulton, were all nonplussed with this argu­ment, for they replied nothing to it.

Fiftly, the falshood of Master Fishers supposall (the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vn­dertooke [Page] in the conference) may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances; as

First, there were 7000. in Elias time, who neuer bowed their knee to Baal: yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors.

Secondly, there were who opposed cor­rupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises, and their false doctrine, or at least assented not vnto it, in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnati­on: yet their names cannot bee shewed and pro­ued out of good Authors.

Thirdly, the first brocher of the errors touch­ing the proceeding of the holy Ghost, and Au­thors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches, were visible men, yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors.

Fourthly, they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vn­der one kinde onely, were visible men: yet the names ofGreg de Va­lent. de legit. vs. Eucharist. them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors.

Fiftly, there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England & Ireland, and other Coun­tries, as also Parsons of Parishes, succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers: yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors.

Sixtly, Master Fishers and Master Sweets An­cestors from Noah, according to the flesh, were visible men: yet all their names cannot bee [Page] shewed and proued out of good Authors.

And here the Protestants might iustly call for names, as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault.

First, there were a people of Africa, neuer christned by any proper names. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Secondly, there was an Author of the Here­sie of the Acephali. Names, Names, where is his Name?

Thirdly, there were 7000. in Elias time, who neuer bowed their knees to Baal. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Fourthly, there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Fiftly, there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Sixtly, there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vn­der one kind onely. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Seuenthly, there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England, and Ireland, and other Countries, as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres. Names, Names, where are their Names?

Eightthly, M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ance­stors, descended from Noah, were visible men. [Page] Names, Names: where are their Names?

The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argu­ment was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher, to name any City, Town, Village or Ham­let, where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers & more next after Christ. And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified, M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net: for, in propounding the Question of the Visibi­lity of the Church in all Ages, he spred a strong Net (as hee thought) to catch D. White and D. Featly, in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages, especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther; but hee was caught in his owne Net, by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers im­mediately after Christ. And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vpon him, wherewith hee in­tended to batter down the walls of our Sion.

The true Church must haue been visible in all Ages before Luther; yea, so visible, as M. Fisher pretendeth, that The Names of the Profes­sors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors.

The Romish Church hath not been so vi­sible:

Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church.

The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne.

[Page] The Assumption is thus prooued:

No Church, holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Tre [...]t in generall, or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particu­lar, can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ.

But the Romish Church holdeth the doc­trine of the Councell of Trent in generall, and those fifteen Articles in speciall:

Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to haue been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ.

And first, that no Church within the space a­boue-named, can bee prooued to haue held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church, was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's si­lence, and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference. Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish. Campi [...] in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth, that [...] prooue the Romish faith: but we could not hear so much as any v [...]ces or [...] from M. Fisher, to testifie, much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages.Pour contrel. Pli [...] writes of thePlin. l. 9. nat. hist. Poly [...]um in tantum Locusta pauet, vt si iuxta viderit, omni [...] moriatur. [...] ­custa or Lobster, that he is so afraid of the [...], that it is death for him to see him: so wee may truely say, that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fif­teen Articles mentioned in the Conference, to bee justified by Antiquity, that it was death to him to name them. And therefore when hee comes to that part of the Conference, he passeth [Page] away in an Homericall Cloud, saying, Heer D. Featly made an insolent Challenge. But A. C. durst not set down so much as the words of the Chal­lenge in particular, lest his Catholique Disciples should be scandalized at it.

Secondly, the Inuisibility of the Romish Church, for many hundreds of yeeres after Christ, may be inferred from the confessions of our learned Aduersaries. Alfonsus confesseth for Indulgences; Roffensis, for Purgatory; and Gregory de Valentia, for Communion vnder one kinde, that they were no part of the beleefe or practice of the ancient Church. Verily I be­leeue, Alfonsus à Castro and Roffensis needed a pardon for so expresly professing the nouelty of Pardons and Indulgences.L. 8. contr [...] haeres. verbo. indulg. Alfonsus his words are, Multa sunt Posterioribus nota, quae Vetustissimi Scriptores prorsus ignorârunt. De Transubst antiatione, rara in Antiquis mentio; de Purgatorio ferè nulla. Quid ergo mi [...]um, si ad h [...]nc modum contigerit de In­dulgentijs, vt apud Priscos nulla sit menti [...]? There are many things knowne to later Writers, which the Ancients were altogether ignorant of. There is seldome any mention of Transubstantiation among the Ancients; almost none of Purgatory. What maruell then, if it so fall out with Indul­gences, that there should be no mention of them by the Ancients?Contrae Lu­therum, c. 18. Roffensis strikes in Vnisons with him: Cùm Purgatorium tam serò cognitum [...] receptum vniuersae Ecclesiae fueri [...], quis iam de I [...] ­ [...]lgentijs mirari possit? Sith Purgatory hath been [Page] so lately knowne and receiued of the whole Church, who can now wonder concerning In­dulgences? As for communion vnder one kind, and depriuing the Laity of the Cup (which Ge­lasius calleth, Grande sacrilegium, a great sacrilege) that it was an abuse lately crept into the church, we need no more pregnant testimony, than Gre­gory de Lib. de legit. vsu Eucha [...]. c▪ 8. Valentia voluntarily affordeth vs: [...] negamus, qu [...]m vtraque species olim administr [...] sit, vt apparet ex Paulo, 1. Cor. 10. Cypriano, A­thanasio, H [...]eronymo, &c. We deny not, that the Communion in ancient times was administred vnder both kindes, as appeares out of Saint Paul, Cyprian, Athanasius, Hierom, &c. and in his tenth Chapter. Et quidem quando primùm vigere c [...]pis consuetudo communicandi sub alterâ tantùm specie in aliquibus Ecclesiis, minimè constat: coepit autem [...] c [...]n­suetudo in Ecclesiâ Latinâ esse generalis non [...] ante tempor [...] Concilij Constantiensis: And truely it appeares not when this custome of communica­ting vnder one kinde onely, began in some Chur­ches: but it began not to be a generall custome in the Latine Church, much before the Coun­cell of Constance. I will heere instance in one Particular more: and That is the publique Ser­uice in an vnknown tongue, which was brought into the Church by Pope Vitalian; who, as [...] ▪ Lect. Wolphius sheweth, brought-in the Latine Ser­uice, and obtruded it to the whole Church pre­cisely, in the yeer 666, which is the number of the Name of the Beast in the Apocalypse. I intreat the [Page] Reader to take speciall notice of it, thatIren. l▪ 5. ad­uers. haeres. c. 3 [...] [...], nomen hab [...]t 666. et valde verisi [...]ile est, & [...] regnum hoc ha­bet voc [...]ulum: Latine e [...]im sunt qui nunc regnāt. Irenaeus findeth the numerall Letters, 666, in the word [...]: and Wolphius prooueth out of Popish Writers, that this very yeer, 666, the Latine Bi­shop Vitalianus commanded Latine Seruice in the whole Christian world.

And this may serue for the confirmation and illustration of the former sort of Arguments v­sed by D. Featly in the Conference.

For the later, which were Dicticall or demon­stratiue, partly drawne à priori, from the cause, and propounded in Syllogisticall Forme; partly à posteriori, from the effect; and propounded in an Induction; they march on in their owne strength, and need no conuoy. Some weak resi­stance hath been made by some stray Troops, who are met withall in the precedent Remon­strance. But now, after fiue Moneths, M. Fisher, leuying all his forces, biddeth them battell, and proclaimeth it by his Herauld, A. C.

A Prooem to the Answer to the Conference.

WEE read a pleasant Story in [...], of a fellow, that, beeing some­what heauie, took a brasse pot which hee had in his hand, and put it vnder his head for a pillow, and so laid him downe to sleepe: but finding That his pillow some-what vneasie, with all the wit he had, he rose vp, and filled it full of feathers and straw within, and thereby thought he had made it much softer, and took a nap vpon it. If I should not apply this Story, the intelli­gent Reader soon would: You, M. Fisher, are the man, who finding your former Answers, vpon which you relyed in the Conference, to bee very hard, vncouth, and not to be endured; now, in this your defense of them, you as it were fill the brasse pot within, with feathers and straw, that is, stuffe out and bumbaste your former An­swers with verball distinctions, impertinencies, tautologies, cauils, and vntruthes: for all the feathers and straw, the pot is brasse still, as hard as euer it was; and, for all your new qualifi­cations and falsifications, your former Answers [Page] are as harsh and vnsufferable, as euer before: so that hee needeth a brow of brasse, that will rest or rely vpon them. For example:

1. About the beginning of the Conference, you were driuen to these Soloecismes in Gram­mar, to affirm, that Two vtrums imply not two quae­res; that whether the Church, &c. and whether the names, &c. make but one whether; that the Copu­latiue (and) coupleth nothing; that these words (It is not) in the singular, are to bee referred to that part of the question, Whether names, &c. in the plurall. To these absurd paradoxes in Gram­mar, Page. 17.against all common sense, you answer, To cut off all needlesse wrangling about the Aduerb vtrum, whether, and the Copulati [...]e et, and, as if Grammar­scholars had been disputing, rather then graue Diuines, who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar, &c. Be­like, graue Diuines are priuiledged to bee [...], vnlettered, vnchrist­crost, to vtter non-sense, to speake false English at their pleasure, as the Pope did false Latine, when he said, Fiatur, for fiat, in contemptum omnium Grammaticorum. But, as the Romane Grammarian told the Emperour, who vsed an vncouth word, Bentius orat. Ciuitatem ab Imperatore hominibus d [...]ri posse, verbis non posse, that it was in the power of the Empe­rour, to make men free of the City of Rome, but not words: so let mee tell you, that the Pope may dispense with you for breaking the rules of your order, in so much intermeddling (as you doe) in ciuil affaires; but hee cannot dispense [Page] with you, for breaking of Grammar Rules▪ Priscian may lay his action against you in all [...], & there lies no prohibition in a case of this nature.

2. You were driuen to these Soloecis [...]es in Lo­gick. First, In a true Syllogisme to answer to the con­clusion: For which you would haue beene [...]issed out of the Schooles in our Vniuersities. Second­ly, distinguish vpon a proposition, and apply the distincti­on to no tearm. To the former you answer, Th [...] idle exception,Page 24.M. Fisher, attending to the [...], did not regard; but might haue told him, that it is not vnusuall, after a distinction made both to Maior and Minor, to apply the like to the conclusion. It is true, he might haue said so (as you doe now): but is that sufficient without farther proofe? Name the place where it is vsuall. I am sure it is alwaies improper and needlesse: for the conclusion in dis­putation, is alwaies a proposition giuen by the answerer, to the opponent, to inferre & conclude it in his argument: and therefore it is alwaies sup­posed to bee agreed vpon for the meaning of it, before it comes to be concluded in a Syllogisme. The Answerer may alwaies distinguish of premises, because they are new propositions not before debated vpon: but the conclusion is either the originall Thesis it selfe, propounded by the answerer, (which if it be ambiguous, he ought to haue explicated it, in setting downe the sta [...]e of the Question) or it is one of the premises in the Opponents Syllogisme: in which, if there lay any ambiguity, the Respondent ought to haue [Page] distinguished vpon it before, when it was the Maior or Minor proposition; and not, when being distinguished or denied before by the Re­spondent, it is now by the Opponent in a true Syllogisme made the Conclusion. To the second you answer:Page. 26. That which D. Featly thinketh to bee a straine of new Logick, to distinguish vpon a proposition, without applying the distinction to any particular tearm, is not so strange as he maketh it. As for example: When one saith, An Aethiopian is white, neither the tearm Aethiopian alone, nor the tearme white alone, in it selfe, needeth distinction, because it is not equiuocall. [...]: What a strange speech is this? Is not the tearme albus, white, equiuocall? Doe not almost all later Logicians giue it, as a most knowne instance of an equiuo­call tearme? Which may bee taken two waies, either absolutely, [...], and in whole, as when wee say, Nireus is albus, Nireus is a white man, [...]; or [...], secundum quid, in some respect or part, as when wee say, Ethiops est albus, a black Moore is white, to weet, in his teeth. It is true, that as Poyson infecteth the whole bloud, yet the substance of it lies but in one principall part: so an equiuocation in any part of a proposition, in some sort, affecteth the whole: yet this equiuocation lieth alwaies in one tearme, to weet, in the subiectum, or praedica­tum, if the proposition bee properly equiuocall; and in the copula and construction, if it bee pro­perly amphibologicall: as, A [...]o te, Aeacida, Roma­nos [Page] vincere posse:te Roman [...]s, or Romanos te. But note M. Fisher (if you knew it not), that one of the three termini in a Syllogisme, may containe, ma­ny words: neither can you name any ambigu­ous Proposition, in which it may not bee shew­ed, in which Logick tearme the ambiguity lyeth.

3. You were driuen in the Conference to this Soloecisme in Philosophy, to affirme, That Media may be said directa, yet not to tend ad directum fi­nem. Hereto he answers,Page 30. If M. Fisher did say these words, his meaning may bee gathered out of his former explication; in which he shewed, how the direct end of the Disputation was not, to treat of particular contro­uersies, but to finde out, first by other meanes, the true visible Church, whose professors names may be shew­ed in all Ages out of good Authors: those Media there­fore Directa, as D. Featly termed them, might in some sort be so tearmed, as beeing directed by D. Featly, to his owne end, of transferring the question to particular Conferences, but not ad directum finem, that is, not or­dained to the direct end of the Disputation, viz. to she [...] a visible Church of Protestants in all Ages, whose names may be shewed out of good Authors. Of the end of the Dispute, & how my arguments tended di­rectly to that end, enough hath been said before in the Remonstrance. But admitting that they ten­ded not to the direct end, M Fisher should haue said, Your Media were not Directa, because they tended not ad directum finem: but he saith, Your Media were Directa, but not tending ad direct [...] ­finem; [Page] thereby flatly contradicting himselfe in the same proposition: for, Media, or meanes, are said in relation to an end; therefore, if they are direct, they must needs tend to the direct end. To say, Media are Directa, and not tending ad di­rectum finem, to the direct end, is all one, as if he should say, This shoo indeed is fit, but not for the foot: This is the streight way, but not to the place you would goe to: The aime is right, but not to the marke: The saddle serueth fit, but not to the beasts back: The knife is keen, and sharp, but not to cut. For, as a shoo is said to be fit one­ly in respect of the foote: and the way straight, in respect of a mans intended iourney: and the [...]ime right, in respect of the marke: and the saddle to serue fit, in respect of the beasts back, for which it is made; & the knife keen, in respect of cutting: so are Media said to be Directa, onely [...]. And therefore I had iust cause then to vse the English Prouerbe, This is a Bull; and now the Greeke, [...].

4. You were driuen to the worst soloe­cisme of all in Diuinity, to refuse to answer to Christ and his Apostles, yea though you were solemnely adiured thereunto. To this (to [...] impudent denials & apparant contradiction ob­serued by the witnesses in the Attestation) you answer,Pag. 64. & 65. that You would not permit me to diuert either to dispute about Christ, or his Apostles, or any other point, till Names were giuen in all ages:Pag. 65. for, this had been, say you, to follow two Hares [Page] at once, and so to catch neither. A light Answer, Master Fisher, to so weightie a Charge. Christ and his Apostles should not haue been so slight­ned. But you say, To instance in Christ and his Apostles in the first Age, was, To follow two Hares. Do you remember which was the Hare we were to hunt? Was it not the Visibility of the Church in all Ages before Luther? And could a man possibly take a more direct and orderly way, then to be­gin with the first Age, and the first of the first Age? If this were not the way to catch the Hare, your owne Hunts-men, that prating [...], and his honest transcriber S. N. were at a great fault: for, they begin their Catalogue where I do. Will you not bee angry, Master Fisher, if I tell you the truth? I hunted not two Hares at once: but when you were deuising and prin­ting your Answer in theBy Isling­ton. Cellar or Cell [...]eer the Wind-mill, your head swomm [...], and your brains ran round, and you knew not well your selfe what you did, as will appeare to any, who will compare my Reply with your Answer, which I here transcribe verbati [...] ( [...]hongh not alwaies fol­lowing you [...], because you often dou­ble, and more often start aside); requiring of you the like. And I begin with your Title.

An Answer to a Pamphlet, intituled, The Fisher catched in his owne net. In which, by the way, is shewed, that The Protestant Church was not so visible in all Ages, as the true Church ought to bee; and consequently, is not the true Church, of which men may learne infallible faith necessarie to saluation, by A. C.

DIgnū patellâ operculū; such a cup, such a Couer; such ware, such inscriptiō on the outside of the box: such as the Inne is, such is the signe: such as the Clocke is, such is the Index or Finger of the Diall. A crackt Cup, and a false Couer; naughtie ware, and as bad an inscription; a cheating Inne, and a lewd Signe; an vncertain Clock, & a lying Index; a book full of falshood & fraud, & neuer a true word in the title: for, neither is it an answer to [Page 2] the Phamphlet so intituled, but a Cauill at some passages therein; neither in this Answer (as hee tearmeth it) is shewed, that The Protestant Church is not the true visible Church, but rather the con­trarie, as shall appeare by discussing it; neither was it penned by A. C. but by Master Fisher, who before was caught in his owne net, and now d [...]nceth in a net, vnder the name of A. C. thinking, that no man seeth him: yet your Net is not so close, but that I plainly see you thorow it; and I gesse at the reason why you shrowd your selfe vnder the Characters of A. C. There are many passages in this Answer; in which, Master Fishers ingenuity, and sincerity, and mo­destie, are set vpon the Last. These commen­dations of Master Fisher would haue lost all their grace in his own mouth, as a Turkeys doth the luster on the finger of a dead man: but it be­comes A. C. well enough, to blazon the Armes of Master Fisher. Moreouer, by thus borrowing the letters of your friends name, you play fast and loose. If any man like your Answer, then it is yours; but if hee dislike it, then it is A. C▪ as Orat. pro Cu [...] Plantio. Tully being girded at by Laterensis for a com­mon Iester, answereth, Quod quisque dicit, id [...]e dixisse dicunt: ego autem si quid est quod mihi [...] esse videatur, et homine ingenu [...] dignum atqu [...] doct [...], non aspernor▪ stomachor verò, cùm a [...]rum non me dig­na in me conseruntur: Other mens jests are fathe­red vpon mee: and if they bee wittie jests, and haue salt in them, I am content to father them; [Page 3] but if dry and vnsauorie, I will not owne them. In like manner in your booke:

—Si quid tamen aptius exit:
Quanquā haec rara auis est: siquid t [...]men aptius exit,

If there be any thing sharply spoken, & to good purpose, M. Fisher will challenge that to himself: but if any thing bee spoken impertinently and flatly (as indeed the greater part of your Mu­sick goes vpon flats) then A. C. must beare it out. Howsoeuer, in my judgement, M. Fisher, you had better haue taken off your mask, and dealt open­ [...]y: for, by this concealing your true name, you giue your selfe a blow, and your cause a wound. Were not you a Nominall in the Conference? Did not you stand wholly, in a manner, vpon Names? and will not you now set your owne name to your owne Work? A man would think, that you, who are stored with so manyPer [...]y; alias Stebden; alias, Fisher. Names, might haue bestowed, at least, one of your old cast Names at full length on your Title-page, and not put your Reader to spell A. C. who, I can assure you, spells them vnhappily. One spel­leth thus: An Answer written by A. C. that is, A Counterfeit; another, A. C. A Cauiller; a third, An Answer written by A. C. that is, by A Cox-&c. quod dicere nolo: but I spare you, and leaue your Title, and come to your Preface.

Master FISHER'S Preface.

GEntle Reader, although I doubt not, but all that bee wise and iudicious, especially if they duely consider the occasion & state of the question lately trea­ted (in a Conference betwixt Doctor White, and Doctor Featly Ministers, and Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites) will easily discerne (euen by that false relation which is set out in print by a Pro­testant) that the Protestants cause hath not gained any thing.

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer.

AS our Blessed Sauiour spake to the High­priests seruant,Iohn 18. 23 saying, If I haue done euill, beare witnesse of the euill; if well, why smitest thou me? In like manner, the Protestant Relator may checke you: If hee haue done you any wrong in the relation, or set downe any thing vntruely, conuince him of it; if not, why doe you smite him with your tongue and pen? It is your owne Maxime, that No man will lie for the aduantage of his Aduersarie; or for his owne disaduantage: but you here say, that The Protestant cause hath gained nothing by the relation. Therefore it should seeme, by your owne argument, to bee a sincere, and not malicious relation. Howsoeuer, if the Pro­testant cause hath gained nothing by it, your cause hath lost nothing by it; and if so, why do [Page 5] you so maligne and persecute, euen vnto banish­ment, an innocent Relation? Why do you for­bid your Romish Catholiques to reade it? Why apply you so many salues, both in writing and in print, if there be no sore? What the Protestant cause gained by the Conference it selfe, or the re­lation thereof, malo in aliorum opinione relinquere, quàm in oratione mea ponere: it is fitter for me to heare, then speak. I am sure, Doctor White and my selfe haue gained much ease by it: for, be­fore the Conference, wee could neuer bee quiet for your challenges; but since, wee haue neuer been troubled with you. It seemes, you had enough of that short Encounter. But you will say, No blowe was struck home: no arrow was drawne vp to the head; no argument prosecuted to the full, at that Meeting. How then could the Protestant Cause gaine any thing by it? By your miserable euasions, and manifest flight and tergiuersation, you, who were ante pugnam auidus & tumidus, were in pugnâ pauidus & timidus: like Captaine Iohn, mentioned by Sine­sius, Epist. 104.who in the maine fight, fled amaine, digging his horse-sides, letting loose the Reanes, laying on amaine with a switch, &c. [...]. &c. It will be said, If you fled in such manner, why did not I follow after you? Because in your flight you brake the bridge, by refusing to answer Christ and his A­postles. Scripturis non loquentibus, quis loquetur? [Page 6] Where Christ and his Apostles cannot be heard, the holy Father was resolued neuer to speake. I account it no foile to my cause, to bee non-futed in that Court, where Christ and his Apostles are excepted against. Where the Charters of our saluation are not pleadable, giue mee leaue, M. Fisher, to speake to you Iesuites in the words of Athanasius de Incar. Christ. Si▪ discipuli est is Scripturarū, per eas nobiscum incedite; si di­uersa a Scriptu­ris vultis fabu­lari, cur nobis­cum decortaetis, qui neque loqui neque audire sustinemus, quod extraneum sit ab istis, dicente Domino, Si māseritis in ser­mone meo, eritis mei Discipuli?Athanasius: If you are the Disciples of the Scrip­tures, and Christs scholars, walke with vs by them: if you wil talk extrauagantly and diuersly from the Scrip­tures, why do you contend with vs, who dare not to speak or heare any thing without them, or different from them; our Lord saying▪ If you abide in my sayings, you shall bee my Disciples?

Master FISHER'S Preface.

Neuerthelesse, because those who bee partially af­fected, or of meane capacity, may (as it is to be doubted diuers doe) conceiue & speak amisse of this matter, to the disgrace of the Catholique cause, and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules; I have thought is meet to set out a true relation of the occasion, pro­gresse, and issue of this Conference; and this in such sort, as diuers falshoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued, and the weaknesse of the Protestant cause may be euidently discouered: which is also so bad, as it seemeth it cannot bee supported, but by setting out such lying relations.

The Answer.

Nescio quo pacto vox tua facta mea est. You haue [Page 7] said that which I should haue said. When Saint Hierom iustly taxed Sabinian a Deacon, for de­flouring a Nun, Sabinian reflects vpon Saint Hie­rom, and laies foule aspersions of lewdnes vpon him: but the difference was that which S. Hie­rom charged Sabinian with, which was per veram convictionem, by true conuiction: but that which Sabinian charged Saint Hierom with, was per fal­sam confictionem, by false conifiction, or forged calumniation. Thus the case stands betweene the Protestant Relatour and you, Master Fisher. Hee laies crimen falsi to your charge, per veram conuictionem, by true conuiction: hee proues falshood by you, by vnanswerable ar­guments drawne from euident circumstances, and your owne confession, and multitude of witnesses beyond all exception: see the At­testation. Whereas you obiect falshood to him, it is per falsam confictionem: you falsly impose falshood vpon him: you say, that there is false­hood in his relation, but you proue no such thing. Your [...], heere cannot carry it; first, because the particulars you deny, neerly touch your credit and reputation: therefore it stands you vpon,Cic. in Ver. to deny them. Negas haec facta: turpis enim et periculosa est confessio: you deny mat­ters of fact alleadged against you in the Confe­rence, because you cannot with safety or credit confesse them. Besides this legall exception a­gainst your witnesse in your owne case, you are a Frier, and therefore (according to the ancient [Page 8] English Prouerb) a L. with a rime to it. Thirdly, you are a Iesuite: and therefore (vnlesse you will swarue from the rule of the prime men & Ring-leaders of your society) you maintain the whol­some and profitable vse of an equiuocating Lie. What doo I or any man knowe, whether, when you speak of diuerse false-hoods of the Prote­stant Relator, you reserue not in your minde, Fained by me, or deuised by me, to saue my credit, and promote the Catholique Cause? But let vs see how you turn the Lie vpon vs.

Master FISHER'S Preface.

The sight and consideration whereof maketh wee more easily beleeue that to bee true which I haue read, viz. that A Decree was made by Diuines in Geneua, defining it lawfull to lie for the honour or credit of the Gospell; and that, conformably to this Decree, an En­glish Minister being told, that one of his Pu [...]-fellows had made Lies, in stead of Proofs of his Protestant Re­ligion, did answer, saying, Hee cannot lie too much in this cause: it must needs be a weak and bad cause, that needeth to be supported by such weak and bad shifts.


I assent to your conclusion: It must needs bee a false religion, that is supported with such lies as you haue now heer giuen vs a brace. True Religi­on neither is supported by lies, nor any way sup­ports lies. Let vs see then whether your faith or ours leanes on these base and beggerly crooches. [Page 9] Certainely, neither Iacobus de Voragine, nor Surius, nor Copgraue, nor Turseline, nor any other Author of your golden Legends, seruing to support your doctrines of Transubstantiation, Inuocati­on of Saints, Worship of Images and Reliques, Purgatory, and Pilgrimages, &c. can be proued to be a Protestant. He that wrote Beza's Recan­tation; and another, who since set forth the late Lord Bishop of Londons Legacie, was farre from a Protestant. Name me any Protestant who euer defended pias fraudes, or euer propugned this Tenet, Fides non est seruanda Haereticis, Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks. The Fathers of the Councell of Constance, who, contrary to the faith and safe conduct giuen by the Emperour Sigis­mund, burnt Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague, ne­uer learned from the Schoole of Geneua, or the English Pue you speak of, to break faith for the maintenance of the Romish-Catholique faith, and the destruction of the opposers thereof. The first that brake the Oath of Alleageance in hea­uen, was the Diuell; and by it, becam a Diuell: and the first that brake promise on the earth, was likewise the Diuell, Gen. 3. whose scholars they shew themselues, who teach, that Promises euen confirmed by oathes, the strongest sinewes which hold all humane society together, may be either cut asunder by Papall Dispensation, or cunning­ly vntied by Iesuiticall Equiuocation. Pray tell me in good earnest: Sprang the doctrine of E­quiuocation (whereby you defend, that a man [Page 10] may affirm, nay sweare an vntruth in words, and make it vp by a mentall reseruation) from vs, or from you?Heer you haue Names, names of your owne trade, and some of them War­dens of your owne equiuo­cating Com­pany. I cannot finde either Nanarrus, or Gregory de Valentia, or Southwell, or Tolet, or Par­sons, among the Catalogue of Protestant Wri­ters. These vpholders of Equiuocation, and ma­ny other, whose names deserue to be buried in euerlasting obliuion with the ancient P [...]iscilia­nists (whose old, damnable doctrine touching the lawfull vse of lying, they refine with a new Burnish, to make it more saleable), neuer took a Copie of the supposed Decree of Geneua, nor gathered Notes from the English Reader you speak of. No Protestants are so ambitious, as to steale from your Garlands the fairest Flowres wherewith you adorne your heads and pens. If any such Flowres growe in our Gardens, either they die of themselues, or are carefully weeded out. I appeal to all the Confessions, Catechisms, Expositions on the Commandements, Systems of Diuinity, Common-places, seuerall Trac­tates, wherein, either directly and professedly, or occasionally, they fall on the Subject wee are now about, whether they condemn not all lying and false-hood, open or couered, with mentall reseruation, or without, to the deep pit of hell from whence they came. From which pit, Iaco­bus de Voragine may very well be thought to take his name, for raking hell for so many lying mira­cles and fables, wherewith hee hath stuffed the liues of Saints. And now hauing laid the Dog [Page 11] at your doore, let vs see how you beat him from you, to ours. Your wisdome and graue father­hood heer tels vs of a Decree made at Geneua, you knowe not when; and a tale of a Minister, you knowe not who; and for proof, are alleaged Iohannes Cretensis, and Gulielmus Nullatenensis, or (if you will) Episcopus Chalcedonensis: both these, if I may take your word (for, I hold neither of them worth looking into) relate the Stories a­boue-mentioned, and that agreeable to their names and titles, fide Graeca. A pretty Pageant: A Iesuite cites a Iesuite against Geneua; and a Romish Priest, a new no-Bishop of Chalcedon, a­gainst an English Minister. Aruspex Aruspicem: oneFortune-tellor. Gypsie quotes another for the truth of his Art. Simia giues his word for Pseudolus. Belial cites Belzebub the god of Flies, for a Flie-blown scoffing Iergon at Geneua: There was a decree made, defining it to be lawfull to lie for the credit and honor of the Gospell. Where was this Decree or Canon made? In the Senate, or in the Consistory? By the Syndicks, or by the Presbyterie? When was it made? What date beares it? Who drew it? Who engrossed it? Vpon what occasion was it made? Who subscribed to it? I cry you mercy: now I remember when it was made: it was made the very yeer in which Beza recanted his Religion: and immediately thereupon, all Gene­ua reconciled it selfe to the Pope. And at that time, the Pope's Holiness, to assure the Geneuians of his vnfained loue and friendship to their city, [Page 12] sent them a Copie of the great Charter of Con­stantines donation, and in the back-side of it, this decree was written, at the beginning of the Iulian period, an. 764. ante orbem conditum. Yea, but some Papists will say, If this Decree were so ridicu­lous a forgery, Father Eudaemon Iohannes would neuer haue reported it, as he doth, in sober sad­nes. Titus 1. 12Heerunto I answer, first, out of Saint Paul, that the Cretians are not alwaies the honestest men: and Father Eudaemon doth not deny nor belie his Country. Secondly, I answer out of the Acts of our Courts, and the Proceedings against Garnet, that this Eudaemon, who takes vpon him to justifie that Powder-traitor, against most vn­controuleable Euidence, and the publick justice of a whole Kingdome, is none of the honestest among the Cretians. This is that monstrum homi­nis, monstrum nominis, Andraeas Iohannes sid [...]nius Cretensis. This is the Canonizer of Garnet and his straw. Father Garnet, forsooth, at his execution (si credere fas est) let fall some drops of bloud vp­on a straw, which miraculously fashioned them­selues into the shape and Visage of that Powder-martyr: which is as true, and altogether as like­ly, as that the Atomi or motes, such as wee now see in the Sun, by a casuall concourse, made the whole world, according to the faith of the anti­ent Epicures. But the best jest was, that as Garnets tongue doubled and equiuocated whil'st he was aliue, so his face equiuocated and doubled after his death. As in Plautus his Amphitrio, Socis be­gat [Page 13] another Socia; and Blepharo, another Blepharo; and the Goblet, another Goblet; so like, that they could not be distinguished: in like manner, face begets face, and miracle begets miracle, and straw begets straw; representing Garnet's feature; so like, that without miracle they could not bee distinguished. Thoughts are free. My conceit is, that Father Eudaemon, reading Saint Gregorie's Exposition on those words of Iob, Boues arabant, & asini pascebant iuxta; the oxen plowed, and the asses fed by them; and learning, that by oxen were allegorically meant the Clergie, and by asses, the Laity, thought he might well defend this strawn miracle, because straw is fit fodder for asses. For which his Apologie of Garnet and his straw, as also his witty inuention of a Decree published at Geneua, for the lawfulnes of a Lie tending to the honour and credit of the Gospell, hee meriteth to haue the first syllable of his name to bee cut off. As Ieconias is called by the Prophet, Conias: so Eudaemon should bee called from henceforth, Diuell Iohn. Daemon Iohannes. And for the Bishop of Chalce­don, I wish him no other punishment, for his slan­der of the English Minister, but to be sent to re­side on his Diocesse. And so I leaue them, and come to you, M. Fisher.

Master FISHER'S Preface.

I for my part will not promise to haue perfectly re­membred and set downe euery word that passed in this Conference, especially spoke by by-standers, nor to haue [Page 14] strictly obserued the precise order of euerie passage: but for the substance and truth of the matter that I doe relate, I assure, that there shall not bee found any false­hood, vnlesse it be in some of those parcels which I doe not relate of my selfe, but out of the Protestant Relator whose relation ordinarily as I doe not contradict, vn­lesse it bee vpon necessarie occasions, so I doe not intend to approue. But, simply relating what it saith, I will leaue is to others to iudge what they thinke fit of it. Onely this I will say, that euerie one may beleeue it, so farre as it relateth any thing which may aduantage the Ca­tholique Defendants and their cause, or disaduanlage the Protestant Disputants and their cause: for it is cer­taine, that no man wil lie for the aduantage of his aduer­sary, or his cause, nor his owne disaduantage. But in such things as it hath set downe aduantageously for the Protestant Disputant, or his cause, there is iust reason to suspect it, inregard that I am told, that Doctor Featly himselfe (who is said to bee the Author) hath confessed, that more is said in the relation, then was said in the conference it selfe: and I am sure, something is left out which was said, and something mis-reported. This being premised by way of preface, I will begin to dis­course of the matter it selfe.


In this part of your Preface, you arrogate truth to your owne relation, and derogate from the Protestants: to driue forward your owne Barke fraught with vntruthes, you fill your sailes with the breath of your owne praises; assuring [Page 15] vs, that, for the substance and truth of the matter that you relate, there shall not bee found any falsehood. How will you assure this, when so many persons of qualitie, present at the con­ference, and attentiue to it, in diuers particulars testifie the contrarie vnder their hands? You are one of the principall Gamesters, Master Fisher; and your credit, if not your Religion, lies at stake. Bee not your owne iudge, but let the standers by determine, whether you or the Pro­testant Relator hath plaied faire, and aboue boord. For omissions, in regard whereof, you taxe the Protestant relation, they were in your fauour, and not to your preiudice. But because you could not see when you were well, and complaine without a cause, they are now sup­plied: make your best of them. For additions or mis-reports to the preiudice of any, the witnesses expresly cleere the Protestant Relatour from any such imputation: and if I should fasten any such vpon him, as you couertly would insinuate, essem similis vestri, id est, mendax. If I were the author of that relation, is it likely, that I would discredit it my selfe? This were, messes meas vrere, to blur with my pencill a true Picture drawne by my selfe. Ita (que) hîc non modò crimen non haeret, sed nec Iesuit ae cohaeret oratió: as you contra­dict the truth, so you contradict your selfe.

To conclude therefore my Answer to your Preface, and giue the Reader some light to cleer his iudgement in censuring both relations, [Page 16] the ciuill Law teacheth to suppose euerie man ho­nest, vnlesse the contrary bee proued: and therefore the Protestant Relator may iustly challenge thy good opinion, vnlesse thou find some proofe to the contrary. On the contrary, Qui semel probatur esse malus, semper supponitur esse malus in eodē genere mali: whosoeuer hath been once conuinced of a crime, wheresoeuer afterward hee comes in question, is presumed alwaies to bee faulty in the same kind. But you, Master Fisher, were conuinced to your face by two witnesses, to be a false Relator and setter downe of some of my answers in a former conference: neither did you, or could you deny it: onely you blanched it ouer with protesting, that you did it not wittingly or willingly: from which starting hole you were driuen by Doctor Goad, and you haue here giuen mee a staffe to beat you out of it: for, you say, It is certaine, that No man will lye, but for his owne aduantage: but you lied, as is confessed, in set­ting downe and relating some of my answers, and therefore, by your owne argument, you must needs doe it for your owne aduantage; and consequently, both wittingly and willingly.

A Table of the principall matters contained in M. FISHER'S ANSWER.

MAster Fisher, before you embarked your selfe into the maine businesse, to answer the three Chapters of the Protestant Relation, I expected, that, for the better directi­on of the Reader, you would haue some way a­nalyzed your prolix Answer, and set before him a Synopsis, or Table of the specialties comprised is this your Treatise: which thing, because you haue omitted, I will doe you the courtesie to per­forme it for you.

The principall matters conteyned in the An­swer, may be reduced to fiue heads:

  • 1. [...], or Vntruths.
  • 2. [...], or Contradictions.
  • 3. [...], or Idle obseruations and ex­ceptions.
  • 4. [...], or Impertinences, or mal'd proposes.
  • 5. [...], or Vain repetitions.

Of the first Head, [...] or Vntruths, reade Title-page; An Answer written by A. C. VN­TRVTH: [Page 18] for, M. Fisher is knowne to bee the Author of it.

Preface, Page 2. D. Featly, who is said to bee the Author, hath confessed, that more is said in the Relation, then was said in the Conference it self. Vn­truth: for, D. Featly was neuer questioned about that Relation, nor said hee any such thing.

Page 15. Then D. Featly, beginning to argue in this place, and not in the end of the Disputation, where the Protestant Relator placeth it, did say, I wish [...] I warne, I command, I coniure you to answer truely [...]d sincerely in the sight of God, and as you will answer it at the day of Iudgement. A double Vntruth. First, the words, I warne, I command, were neuer spo­ken by me. Secondly, those words, As you will answer it at the day of Iudgement, were spoken in the end of the Disputation, and not in the beginning, where you place it. See the Attestation to the Conference. In the same page, M. Sweet pro­pounded these conditions to bee obserued; First, that all bitter speeches should be forborne. Secondly, that [...] ­thing should bee spoken or heard, but to the purpose. Vntruth. The second condition was neuer pro­pounded by M. Sweet; which I thus prooue. Both Relations agree, that M. Sweet propoun­ded but two conditions in all; likewise both agree, that the first condition was, That all bitter speeches should bee auoyded. There remaines then but one condition. But all the witnesses, who haue subscribed to the Conference, doe, vpon [Page 19] their certaine knowledge, remember, that M. Sweet propounded such a condition; that None but Disputants should speak. And therefore this se­cond condition added by M. Fisher, that nothing should be spoken or heard, but to the purpose, is feigned and supposititious.

Page 16. M. Sweet did not say, as the Relator re­porteth; They are Scholasticall points, not fundamen­tall: neither was there any such Syllogisme then made, as the Relator annexeth. Double Vntruth. Wee haue as many witnesses, both of that Answer of M. Sweet, and D. Whites Syllogisme, made by way of Reply, as there are words in both. In the same page: In the meane while, name but one Father, one writter of note, who held the particulars aboue-named, for 500 yeeres after Christ. To which instant demand of D. Featly (saith the Relator) nothing was an­swered: but neither was this said, neither was it need­full to answer. Vntruth: for, the witnesses to the Conference, perfectly remember, & directly affirme, that it was said. Besides, this I spake out of my paper, which I haue yet to shew: and no one thing more mooued M. Bugges, and some other in the Conference, then this, that for all the Iesuites laying claime to all Ages, & boasting, that all the world was of the Popish Religion be­fore Luther, yet M. Fisher could not name so much as one man in the world, who for 500 yeers after Christ, held the Tridentine faith ingene­rall, or those points of Popery, mentioned in the Conference, in speciall; neither doth hee [Page 20] yet name one in his printed Answer. Nay, hee dares not so much as name the points, for feare of giuing scandall to his owne side.

Page 20. These formall words which he reporteth M. Fisher to haue said, viz. A proofe à postetiori, is more demonstratiue, then à priori, M. Fishér did not speake. Vntruth: For, first the witnesses to the Conference remember perfectly, that he said so. Secondly, M. Alesburie, the Writer of the Con­ference, set downe these formall words, which are yet to be seene in the sealed Schedule. Third­ly, M. Alesburie immediately replyed vpon M. Fishers words, Heere M. Fisher sheweth his Acade­micall learning, in preferring a demonstration à poste­riori, before that which proceedeth à priori. These words of M. Alesburie are set downe in the Pro­testants Relation of the Conference, and M. Fisher doth not deny them: and therefore he can­not deny those words which were the imme­diate occasion of that Reply.

Page 31. But D. Featly did not say all this. Vn­truth: for, immediately vpon those words of mine, that the Inference of the effect by the cause, was not transitio à genere in genus, &c. D. Goad interposed, saying; M. Sweet, You ones lear­ned better Logick in Cambridge, then you shew now. These words of D. Goad, set downe in the Pro­testants Relation, M. Fisher heere denieth not: and therefore hee cannot reasonably deny the former words of mine which occasioned them. Remember, M. Fisher, better your lesson; Man­decem oportet, &c.

[Page 21] Page 32. But D. White did not speak thus; nei­ther did he, in all the conference, make any such long discourse. Vntruth: for, first, D. White was ap­pointed, in the beginning of the Conference, for the last houre and half to answer M. Fisher in the contrary Question, for the Visibility of the Roman Church. The first houre and half was already spent: and therefore D. White had iust occasion and reason to call vpon M. Fisher as hee did, to prooue the Visibility of the Romane Church: And as for the six points mentioned in the Conference, they were the same which D. White shewed Sir Humfrey Linde and mee before the Conference, and told vs, that he would put M. Fisher vpon the proofe of them. Secondly, those of the Auditors which sate and stood next about D. White, testifie vpon their perfect remem­brance, that he called vpon M. Fisher to oppose, and propounded those six points vnto him, set downe in the Conference. In which, because M. Fisher found himself vnable to deal with Doctor White, therefore he makes bold to borrow a point of Iesuiticall honesty; Fairly to deny, that any such points were proposed.

Page 35. M. Fisher solemnly protested vpon his conscience, that wittingly and willingly hee did neuer wrong either D. White, or D. Featly, in report of any conference. To this, nothing was replied: and there­fore I suppose, that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fisher's sincerity in his relation. Vntruth: for, D. Goad immediately replied, that what M. Fisher [Page 22] wrote, was for his owne aduantage: and there­fore he could not but suspect, that he did it wit­tingly and willingly. See the Attestation to the Conference.

Page 37. D. Featly, turning to M. Fisher, said, Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles, or not? To which M. Fisher said, I will, if you will stay: and, stretching out his hand, he took D. Featly by his arme offering to stay him; yet he (D. Featly) in that abrupt manner went away. Vntruth. So many words, almost so many vntruthes; and, God be thanked, there are witnesses enow to conuince the Coun­ter-relator of a fignall and transcendent leasing in this last passage. See the Attestation.

I might furnish this Head and common place of M. Fisher, with many more instances; but these may suffice, to prooue, that M. Fisher dee­meth himself one of those that haue past Thyle; who, if we may beleeueEp. 148. Con­ceditur ijs qui Thylem tran­sierunt, [...]. Synesius, may lie by au­thority, and without controule.

Of the second Head, [...], or Contradiction, reade

Page 14. Hee alleageth my words thus: Al­though this Question be grounded vpon vncertain and false Supposals: For, a Church may haue been visible, yet not the Names of all visible Professors thereof now to be shewed, &c. And again, page 32. Are all vi­sible Names vpon Record? Are all Records in former times now to bee produced? And again in the same page, M. Sweet, calling for Names of Protestants, [Page 23] well might say, If Protestants had been in all Ages, their Names in euery Age might bee produced: vnto which, as the Protestant Relator saith (and the Coun­ter-Relator denieth not), D. Featly replied, saying, This is a non sequitur. And page 19. he propoun­deth my Argument thus: That Church which hol­deth this faith you beleeue (not we), shall be so visible, that the Names thereof may be shewed in all Ages. But the Protestant Church holdeth this faith:See the Pro­testant Relati­on of the Con­ference, page 21. line 23. Ergo. And again in repeating the like argument, That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith, once giuen to the Saints, is so visible, that the Names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages. To this Maior Proposition I added, page 21. The Maior is ex concessis: neither doth the Counter-Rela­tor deny, that these words were added. Yet page 49. M. Fisher, in his Letter to the Earle of War­wick, saith, They are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook, as they stand more engaged than before; hauing now pro­fessed and acknowledged, that the true Church, or (to vse their owne words) the Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee, is able to name Professors in all Ages.


Doctor Featly professeth & acknowledgeth, Contradiction the first.that The true Church ought to be so visible, as that it is able to name professors in all ages.

Doctor Featly holdeth not, that The true [Page 24] Church ought to be so visible, &c. but dispu­ted ad hominem, and ex concessis aduersarij, not according to his owne iudgement.

Page 32. M. Fisher had no reason to diuert to par­ticular matters, in regard it was his Aduersaries fault, to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes. And page 48. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proof to haue consisted in this, that The true Church ought alwaies to be so visible, as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named. But the Protestants was the true Church. We refused to dispute of the Mi­nor, because it transferred the Question. And in ma­ny other places, he cals my Argument, from the truth of faith to the Visibility of the Church, A diuersiue Proof. And page 34. Dilatory and i [...] ­pertinent Syllogisms. Yet Page 23. he saith, In as­king which is the true visible Church, wee ask, at least vertually, which is the true faith, in regard the true visible Church cannot bee without the true faith: yes therefore doo we ask which is the true Church, that of it we may learn what is the true faith. And page 69. line 14. That the right order of things requireth, th [...] first it onely be disputed, to whom the faith belongeth: which is all one (say you) as if he should say, Which is the true visible Church?


In the Question touching the Visibility of the true Church, it is impertinent, and a diuersion, to dispute of the true faith.

[Page 25] In the Question of the visibility of the true Church,Contradiction the sec [...] it is not impertinent nor a diuersion, to dispute of the true faith; because the Question of the true faith is, vertually at least, included in the Questi­on of the true Church.

Page 37. Doctor Featly in his rising, turned to Master Fisher, saying, Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles, or no? To which Master Fisher said, I will, if you will stay; And in the same page, Master Fisher did not prohibit him (Doctor Featly) to begin with the names of Christ and his Apostles. And againe: M. Fisher expressed his yeelding to dispute about Christ and his Apostles two seuerall times; once thus: I will dispute of them in due place. Another time thus: I wil, if you wil stay. Yet Pag. 64. he writeth thus, M. Fisher and M. Sweet still kept the Aduersary to the point, and would not permit him to diuert, either to dispute about Christ and his Apostles, or any other point, vntill names were giuen in all ages; The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason. And Pag 65. hee alleadgeth two reasons for it. See them there. And Page 71. M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him (D. Featly) out of Scrip­ture, of Christ and his Apostles, vntill he had made his full induction of names.


Master Fisher permitted Doctor Featly to dis­pute about Christ and his Apostles. [...]

Master Fisher permitted not Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles.

[Page 26] Master Fisher expresly yeelded, that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles.

Master Fisher yeelded not that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles,Contradicti­on the fourth. nor dispute about them, nor any other point, vntill names were giuen in all ages.

A curious eye might easily discerne many more contradictions in this Answer of Master Fisher: but these may suffice to veri [...]ie the truth of that obseruation, or, to speake more properly, that obseruation of the truth, to wit, that she vsually taketh this reuenge of her aduersaries, that they who contradict her in the beginning, contradict themselues before the end: for truthes are alwaies concords, but false-hoods are very often discords, euen among them­selues.

Of the third Head [...], or idle obserua­tions, and friuolous exceptions.

Page 13. Any man reading this parcell of the Conference, would bee induced to thinke, that Doctor White & Doctor Featly were summoned on the [...] to this Conference. And what if he should think so? In the same Page: The Relator would make [...] Reader beleeue, that Master Fisher had set the figure of 2. in the middle of the question. Grande [...] A most horrible falsification, to set the figure 2. before the second part of the question. You you [...] self at that place set two points there, thus ( [...]) and [Page 27] added a second whether: therfore it could bee no irremissible sinne in the Scribe, or rather the Printer, to distinguish the parts of the question really and verbally diuers, by pre­fixing the figure 2. to the latter part of it. Is not this to fish for Banstikles? If you catch no better stuffe in your net, by my consent, you shall be called no more Master Fisher, but Master Minnow-catcher.

Page 14. The Relator would make men beleeue, that Doctor Featly had deliuered the state of the que­stion, memoriter. And Page 16. Diuers particular points rehearsed by the Protestant Relator, which hee (Doctor Featly) read out of a paper. A capitall ac­cusation. Is any proposition the truer, or Argu­ment the stronger, because 'tis said by hart, or me­moriter? Piere Daubignie, the French Iesuite of your Order, thanked God, that hee had a singular gift of forgetfulnesse; that, what hee heard in confes­sion, it presently ran out of his memory. This gift of forgetfulnes is not now so rare; therefore you might haue spared this obseruation: how­beit, if my memory had been so short and sandy, that I was not able to commit a doozen lines, or thereabouts, to memory (if I had intended it), they were very much too blame, that made choise of mee, first at Oxford, and afterwards at London, to preach the rehearsall Sermons. A very vnfit taske for a Piere Daubignie to haue vnder­taken.

Page 35. Master Fisher, hearing this slander, [Page 28] did rise vp, and solemnly protest. And Page 36. Master Fisher, rising vp, with his hand and [...], &c. And what if hee had protested, sitting [...] Vnlesse the Relator, Master Fisher, would inti­mate, that hee is alius stans, alius sedens; or that the speech hee vttered standing, were not so dis­creet as his other, because the Parasite in the Poet saith, Plus sapio sedens: I haue more wit when I sit.

Page 63. It no way sorted with the gray [...] and grauity of a Doctor, and a Deane, to haue laughed and fleered so much, as Doctor White did, &c. [...] for Doctor Featly, both his lookes, speeches, [...] and gestures were such, as did not become him; [...] might better haue beseemed a Stage-player, then a Doctor, and an Archbishops Chaplaine. As if (f [...]r­sooth) none were fit to bee a Deane of a Church▪ or an Arch-bishops Chaplaine, but such a one as Crassus, sirnamed Agelastus, was, who neuer laughed but once in all his life; and that was, at sight of an Asse eating thistles: whereupon the prouerbe grew, Similes habent labra Lactucas: such Lettice, such lips. Had you set downe in you [...] Relation the true cause of Doctor Whites laugh­ter, the Reader, though a Crassus, would as hear­tily haue laughed, as hee or I did: for, such oc [...]casions were diuers times offered in the confe [...]rence by you and your Companion, that [...] of your Romish spleen-bound Catholicks [...] now and then a smile at your absurdities. If [...] had meant to barre all manner of harmlesse [...] [Page 29] and innocent laughters vpon a sudden occasion giuen, you did ill to choose Master Sweet; you should haue chosen Master Sowre to haue been your Assistant. You your selfe, Master Fisher, as graue a child as you are, Page 34. make the Reader and your selfe very merry with my But­tery book; for which you deserue to be sconsed. Yet all the punishment I wish you for it, and the rest of your friuolous, (if not ridiculous) ob­seruations and exceptions in your booke, is that wherein Domitian is said to haue taken much pleasure, to weet, to dart a whole after-noone at Flies with a neat and slender iron bodkin.

Of the fourth Head, [...], or Impertinences, reade

Page 18. & 19. To that answer of mine, you haue a purpose, M. Fisher, to cauill: you know my meaning well enough, by the tearm perpetuall; to weet, That Christian faith which hath con­tinued from Christs first publishing it, and shall still continue vntill his second comming. You reply: If this were said by D. Featly, hee should haue considered, how hee and D. White cauilled vpon the word, Whether and And, when they knew M. Fisher's meaning well enough; yea, after they had heard him plainely explicate his meaning: whereas M. Fisher one­ly put them in minde to speake properly like Schollers, and did not cauill or reply, after that D. Featly did ex­plicate his meaning. Chius ad Choum. Is it all one to expound a tearm, & to confound two distinct [Page 30] Questions? to explicate in what sense a man ta­keth an ambiguous word, and to speake perfect See the intro­duction to the defence.non-sense? to speak as ordinary men speak, and to speak as no man speakes? I called faith eternall in that sense, as the Apostle calleth [...], the eternall-couenant, Heb. 13. and as Saint [...] calleth the eternall Gospell, Apocal. 14. and as Tully prooueth the soules to be eternall, in his Tusc. Quest. And will you say, that none of these spake properly or like Schollers? Yet lest you should happely mistake aeternum, for, ab aeterno, I added to the word eternall, perpetuall; most plainely to explicate my meaning. And therefore your ex­ception at the word eternall, thus expounded, could be nothing but a meere Cauill; which you your selfe perceiuing, in your later thoughts you help the matter, after your manner, with a men­tall reseruation, otherwise called, a lie; saying, page 18: To this M. Fisher answered, first, excepting against the word eternall, saying; Faith is not eternall, or ab aeterno. Which words, ab aeterno, were in­deed ab externe; strangers, new thrust into the Conference. Neither did I in my Argument▪ nor you in your Answer, vse those words [...] aeterno.

Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Confe­rence, viz.

That Church, whose faith is eternall, and p [...] ­petuall, and vnchanged, is so visible as the Ca­tholique Church ought to be, and as the Popi [...] Church, by M. Fisher, is pretended to be.

[Page 31] But the faith of the Protestant Church is eter­nall, perpetuall, and vnchanged:

Ergo, The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee, and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee:

You answer, That the Maior is not vniuersally true, for that there may be a Church or company, who may haue inward faith, eternall and vnchanged: As for example, A Church of Angels, who, for want of vi­sible professors, are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be. Quid ad Rombum? What is this instance to the purpose? I dispute of the Church on earth: you answer of the Church in heauen. I dispute of faith: you answer of vision. I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages: you answer of a Church, in which there is no succeeding, nor Ages. I dispute of a Church vi­sible in all Ages: you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors & Mar­tyrs, who haue sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud: you answer of immortall Spirits. In a word, I dispute of men, named in good Authors, and Histories: you an­swer of Angels, whose names are written in hea­uen, and were neuer vpon visible Record, except two or three named in the Scriptures.

Page 31. To those words of mine, I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause, was transi­tio à genere in genus: such was my Argument; for faith in a beleeuer, produceth profession and confession [Page 32] thereof; You reply, That M. Sweet's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed, if hee had tearmed that [...] (to weet, proouing the effect by the cause) transitio à genere in genus: for, a cause as a cause, an effect as an effect, doe not onely differ specie, but also gene­re: and besides, a proofe à priori and à posteriori, are diuers kindes of proofes.

[...]: I dispute of a transition à genere in genus, in rebus: you answer of a transition in notionibus. I speake of a straying from the sub­ject of the Question: you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing. I speake of genus in Scientijs: you answer of [...] in the predicables, or predicants: so well, in de­fence of M. Sweet, you obserue M Sweets preten­ded Law, of speaking nothing but to the pur­pose. But certainely you saw not the But, and so­missed the mark, reading M. Sweets Law without it, thus: Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose. Euery Puney in Logick can tell you, that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus, is the proouing of a conclusion in one science, by the principles of another distinct from it; and no way subalternall to it: As for example, To de­monstrate a conclusion in Physick, by principles in Geometrie; or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy, out of a principle or prin­ciples in Morall Philosophy. But if your inter­pretation of transitio à genere in genus, should stand, euery demonstration of the effect by the cause, à priori, or of the cause by the effect, [...] poste­riori, [Page 33] in the same Science; should bee a transitio à genere in genus, because, as you say, the cause as a cause, and the effect as an effect, differ genere: for which ignorant Arguing, as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference, so you, M. Fisher, for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it, deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas, vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues.

Page 65. You alledge this for a reason, why you refused to answer Christ & his Apostles, for that (say you) All disputation about particulars, be­fore the true Church were, by her perpetuall Visibility, or some such euident marke found out and knowne, would haue beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference, had with a certaine Minister, would not enter into any particulars, vntill he had asked these generall Questi­ons: First, what ground the Minister would stand vp­on, &c? [...]? Heer you bring-in, by the head and eares, a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister, and an acute Dispu­tant, touching the merit of works. What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church, or a Catalogue of Names? If this bee not transitio à genere in genus, I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem, a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant; neither was there a­ny cause at all giuen you of this digression: for, I drew you not to dispute about any particulars, but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self, to weet, that The Prote­stant [Page 34] Church was so visible in the first Age, that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith, might be produced; viz. Christ, his twelue Apostles, Saint Paul and Ignatius: to whom after you had giuen your Answer, Whether they taught our faith or yours, I would haue gone on, in like manner, in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages. Now then, let the Reader iudge, whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Mini­ster touching merits, were any way necessary or pertinent.

Page 68. 69, 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions, to prooue, that Hereticks, who reiected the au­thority of the Apostolicall and Mother Chur­ches, and refused also some Scriptures, or per­uerted the Text by additions and detractions, should not be admitted to dispute with Ortho­doxall Christians out of Scriptures: [...]. The sentences indeed you cite, are gol­den, but you apply them most leadenly: for, what Protestant (whom, by a ridiculous [...] principij, or begging the Question, you stile He­reticks), what Protestant (I say) euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Chur­ches, as they were in the Primitiue Times; much lesse, either refused or peruerted any part of par­cell of the Canonicall Scriptures, by addition or detraction? Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures, and the ancient Mother-church [Page 35] (of which, Tertullian speaks), who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors them­selues, then you do: we willingly put our whole cause in their hands: wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to haue been held by the Apostles and their heires, Tertullian speaks of. Prooue, that the Apostles, or the Pri­mitiue Churches immediatly founded by them, held your Trent-faith, or those twelue new Ar­ticles added by Pope Piu [...] in the end of that Councell, and imposed vpon all Professors to sweare vnto; and then I will acknowledge, that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures. And if we prooue not; that we hold the ancient Primitiue faith, wee will acknow­ledge, that we haue no right vnto them, nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them. Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other, shall prooue by some other marks, than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one ano­ther in the Sea of Rome, that they are the heires of the Apostles, we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them, and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master, for our prime Euidence and surest Deed, to make good our plea.

Of the fift Head, [...], or vain repetitions.

For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence, bequeathed to you as a Legacy in [Page 36] euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament, I need not alleage, as I haue done before, particular leaues and pages: for, you might far better haue intituled your whole book, A Battologie, than an Apologie, or, An [...] pamphlet intituled, The Fisher catched in his own Net.

A judicious friend of mine, to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print, and demanded of him his iudgement of it, returned it back again in the words of the Poet; ‘Ille referre aliter saepe solebatidem.’

Another said, M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense, were as irksome and te­dious, as his audible, dilatory Answers and Te [...] ­giuersations in the Conference. A third said, He was sure, that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial; who professeth, that rather than his Book should perish, by reason of the finall [...] of it, hee would fill vp as many pages, as [...] cobbles verses, with that Catholique Pateh, [...].

Ergo ne pereat bre [...]ibus mihi charta li [...]ellis▪
Dicatur potiùs, [...].

To repeat particularly your vain repetitions, would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you, euen in the reprehension thereof: and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Plat [...] a­gainst Diogenes; Fastum caleas, sed [...]: so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo, [...]. And therefore, passing them in [...], from the contents of your Book, I hasten to [...] Text.

Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference.

Protestant Relation.

EDVVARD BVGS, Esquire, about the age of 70. yeers, being lately sick, was sollicited by some Papists then about him, to forsake the protestant faith, telling him, There was no hope of saluation without the Church; There was no Catholike Church, but theirs.

Master FIHSER's Answer.

How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false; I will not stand to discusse, as not yet knowing how, or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church, and consequently of his religion, &c.

Doctor FEATLYE's Reply.

Although I might take occasion by the coun­ter-relation of the occasion of this conference, to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds & falsehoods (for as they say in a Lamprey, so in this whole treatise frō the begin­ning to the ending there is a string of poyson; throughout) yet because the occasiō of the con­ference but little concernes the cause, & less me, [Page 38] in sparing the Iesuites blame, and penance, I will spare mine owne paines, and the Readers [...]; who (I perswade my selfe) will not much regard how wee came into the field: but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place, for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man (which im­pudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne) in the occasion, Page 7. and [...] Conference, and afterwards in the [...] Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they [...] been met withall by Master Rogers, Master Walker and diuers other, and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their [...] shall haue ouer and aboue, my [...] Asteriskes, when my tractate of the visibiliti [...] the Church (which hath laine by mee in dark­nes for the space of a yeere) shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light. As for the relation of matter of fact, so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together, there needs no conte [...] ­ting Answer, where they clash or [...] one a­nother. I can answer no otherwise thē the O [...]ator doth in the like kinde, Accusatar dicit, Marcus S [...] ­rus negat: Vtri [...]redemus? A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation; a worthie Knight of knowne integrity, who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman▪ Master [...] auoweth them, as followeth. [...]

The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde, touching diuers passages in the Prote­stant Relation, about the occasion and issue of the Conference, excepted against by the Iesuite.

COncerning the occasion of the Conference, I a [...]ow, that (ac­cording to his Maiesties com­mand) I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faith­fully, to my best remembrance, as is al­readie extant in print. And whereas (fol. 4.) Master Fisher saith, hee set downe two questions with my consent, and the old Gentle­mans; the first whereof being allowed by both of vs, Master Fisher wrote, It is granted; I affirme, that in processe of discourse, I then allowed, that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times: but, that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth, or that I obserued what M. [Page 40] Fishers marginall note was, I vtterly de­nie. And wheras (page 12.) Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Audi­torie, compared with the few which Master Fisher brought: To this I say, that, vpon my credit, I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting, more then those that I inuited to dinner. Howsoeuer, I doubt not, but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side; and by this time, is more asham'd of his cause, then of the paucitie of his parties th [...]re present. And yet I will let him know (for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists) I was able to number full twen­tie of that side present. And verily, had I purposedly drawn thither so much com­pany, the Iesuites ought me thanks for it, as therein deseruing well of the Catho­lique cause, by bringing a troup of specta­tors, to view the foyle of our own side, in a question reputed by the Iesuites so dis­aduantageous to vs: wherin, forsooth, the Protestants (as is triumphed, page 33.) are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age, t [...]at they are not able [Page 41] to name one; to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles (for, they were not worthy to bee answered) not one Author; no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall. Again (page 16.) whereas it is said, there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet; I answer, that I was induced for certaine reasons, then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation. First, the stan­ders by did well perceyue, that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried, and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing, and writing little to the purpose. Secondly, a Romified Lady being present, and being troubled with those dull and weake answers, did then intreat me to interpose, and dispute of Transub­stantiation for her instruction. And lastly, I adde, that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house, 8. weekes before, where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it: and now I conceiued, he was wel armed for a second encounter. Againe, where it is related [Page 42] in the Conference, that I told M. Buggs, that the Church was in Christ and his A­postles, &c. The Iesuite saith in the mar­gent there,A weaker Re­futation, as is shewed in the insuing Dis­course. A very weake and insufficient answer, as is shewed hereafter. Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie, and forgot a farther Reply; or else other answer hee could not make to dis­proue it. Neither, by Master Fishers leaue, was it so weake and insufficient an an­swer as hee gaue me, when, vpon his first meeting, falling into conference about the Reall presence, which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words, Hot est corpus meū; I answerd, that Scotus, & Came­racensis, and Bellarmine, were of opinion, that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation. To which obiection, hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by: What care I for Bellarmine, or Scotus, or Cameracensis? Againe, by Master Sweets leaue, it was not so weake and insufficient an answer, as when I propounded to him foure questions, viz. The worship of Images, Praier in an vnknowne tongue, Com­munion [Page 43] in one kinde, and Transubstan­tiation; with this assurance, in the pre­sence of Recusants, that if he could proue either all, or but any one of those, held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church, according to that forme of doc­trine prescribed in the Councel of Trent; I would then subscribe to Popery. All his answer was, that hee brought a booke that would proue them all. So for that time I was content, hee should bee saued by his booke. But Doctor Featly (in whose hands hee is now) will not let him escape so easily; but, calling him into the inner barre, will finde, that non legit vt Clericus. At that time Master Sweet farther added, that hee for his part had other businesse, and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions. If his superior had heard him, certainly hee would haue en­ioyned him penance, for neglecting so fai [...]e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee: hee knowes, there ought to bee no businesse pretended, where there had been a possi­bility to make a proselyte.

[Page 44] Lastly, concerning the issue of the Conference, I auow and protest, that old Master Bugs came then to me, and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure, and told mee, that he well perceiued, it was be the great brags of the ad­uersaries for their Church; that hee well per­ceiued, they could say but little for it: and withall, hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time, that he professed vnto mee, that if his sonne would not leaue his religion, and the priests company, he would leaue him, &c.


The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the first, touching the entry into the Conference.

DOctor White, and D. Featly, beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde, and staying awhile after, had notice giuen them, that M. Fisher and M. Sweet, Iesuites, were in the next room, ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher, vnder his owne hand, in these words, viz.

First, Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible, and especially in the Ages going before Luther; and secondly, Whe­ther the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors.

This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named, and it beeing [Page 46] notified vnto them, that there were cer­taine persons who had beene sollicited, and (remaining doubtfull in Religion) desired satisfaction, especially in this point, they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point; the rather; because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers, and disperse them in secret: in which they vaunt, that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point.

Master Fisher his Answer.

First, any man reading this parcel, would be induced to think, that D. White & D. Featly had neuer had notice before, for what end they were inuited to dinner, or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites; but that they were on the sudden summ [...]ned to this Conference, without any preparation, or knowledge of the Question: which not to be so, is euidently conuinced, partly, by that which is already said, partly▪ by that which I am after to say.

Secondly, this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher, vnder his owne hand, had set downe the words of the Question, distinguished with the ex­presse figure of 2. which is not so: for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Questi­on, nor did not meane to make any more then [...] onely [Page 47] entire Question, as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired.

Thirdly, he seemeth willing to perswade, that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers: which is not true.

Doctor Featly his Reply.

The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing, offendere in limine, to stumble as a man is going out a-doores, in lifting his legge ouer the threshold. You do so, M. Fisher: you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore, and (which is farre worse) you stumble at three strawes.

The first is, that (forsooth) any man reading this parcell, would beleeue, that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Con­ference. And what if he should beleeue so? What doth this aduātage our cause, or preiudice yours? It matters not much, how wee came to this en­counter, but how we came off. Yet are there no words in the Relation, which imply any such thing, that wee came sudden or vnprouided; nay, whosoeuer reades the first Chapter, touch­ing the occasion of the Conference, cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before, and came prouided. The truth is, for mine owne part, I knew of it two daies, and no more, before the meeting; and I excepted against the day ap­pointed, as beeing too neere, and sudden, for a man to prepare, either to oppose or answer in so [Page 48] spacious and [...]ast a Question, [...] from Christ to L [...]ther: yet beeing ouer-intrea­ted to be there as an Assistan [...] onely, in the [...] yeelded.

The second straw you stumbled at, is, That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue, that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question. And what if the Reader did so be­leeue? It is certaine, that there is a second [...] in your Question. And what [...] then had it beene, to set before the second Vtrum, the figure 2 ? Howsoeuer, there was no fault in the Protestant Rela [...]our, but in the Printer, who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy (?) for the figure 2. In the originall written Relation, there was no such figure infarced. The Printers tripping is not to be taken for a stumble of the Relators: nay, it is rather maruelled, that he tripped no more, beeing so hastie to [...] without his err [...]nd. And to thrust out a Relation without direction & authority of the like stamp, is that error of the Printer, Page 20. line 6. where the originall copie went thus, [...] a­gaine, those of M. Fisher's side calling for [...], Where are your names? D. White said, This is nothing but apparant tergiuersation, &c. The shallow Printer, not vnderstanding this passage, inuerted the sentence thus: D. White said, Where are your names? and thereby wholly peruerted the sence, D. White called not for names, but [...] the Popish Auditors for vnseasonably and vnciuilly [Page 49] calling for names, when M. Fisher was at a stand.

The third straw you stumble at, is, That the Protestant Relator seemeth to say, that the Priests and Iesuites cast out papers, &c. You say this is not true, and yet you your selfe here men­tion three such papers scattered by you; and I haue receiued a fourth, written by your man; and Sir Hamfrey Lynde hath seene a fift; and M. Wal­ker & M. Rogers, a sixt and seuenth. Whereunto al­so they haue returned Answers; the one in print, the other in written hand. Let the Reader then iudge, whether the Protestant Relator any way ouerlashed, in charging you with the dis-sprea­ding of such papers.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the second, tou­ching the state of the Question to bee disputed of.

At the beginning of this Meeting, when the Disputants were set; D. Featly drew out the paper, in which the Question a­boue-rehearsed was written, with the words in the Margent, viz. I will answer, that it was not; and demanded of M. Fisher, whether this were his owne hand: which [...]

Doctor Featlie's Reply.

You talke of prescribing methods and pro­portions to be obserued on both sides, as if wee fought vnder your banner, or were to receiue the law from you. Who made you dictator; and M. Sweet your Magister equitum, that you take vp­on you to enact Martiall Law, for sacred [...] in the truthes quarrell? Verily, if you prescribe no better lawes in this kind then those that are set downe in the Conference, and auowed in your defence, viz.

In a good Syllogisme, to answer to the conclusion; To distinguish on a proposition, and apply it to no learn; To prooue an effect alwaies by an effect, because a [...] effect is posterius, &c. you are fitter to bee a Law-giuer among the Alogi, a sort of Hereticks. Alogi, then the Logicians; inter Alogos, then Logicos.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the third, touching the conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants.

M. Sweet. Before you proceed to dispute, desire, these conditions may be assented [...] on both sides;

[Page 53] First, that All bitter speeches bee forborn; Secondly, that None speak, but Disputants.

Master FISHER.

About this time, M. Sweet propounded these con­ditions to be obserued.

First, That all bitter speeches should be for borne.

Secondly, That nothing should be spoken or heard, [...]ut to the purpose. Which second he did propound, to pre­uent impertinent digressions.

Doctor FEATLY.

This second condition was not propounded by M. Sweet at the Conference, as is prooued in the Attestation, page 40. but is since deuised by M. Fisher, to set a faire Glosse, and colour on his and M. Sweet's miserable shifts and euasi­ons: responsum nullum dant praeter vnicum, quod sem­per dant nihil ad propositum: whatsoeuer they are not able to answer to, that is with them nothing to the purpose. To the instance in fifteene nouel­ties of the Romish faith, M. Sweet answered, as you report, page 16. that Those things were then impertinent, and nothing to the purpose. To Sir Humfrey Lynde's motion to M. Sweet, to dis­pute of Transubstantiation out of Saint Austen, M. Sweet answered, That is not now to the Que­stion. To my proofe a priori, of the Visibility [Page 54] of the Protestant Church. M. Sweet answe­reth, page 19. That is not to the Question: you ought to prooue the truth of your Church, à posteriori. That is to the Question. To giue some relish and taste to these vnsauory Answers of M. Sweet's, You faine a Prouiso of his, which indeede is a Pro­cudo of your owne; That M. Sweet answered this according to law, for there was a Law (forsooth) made, That nothing should be spoken or heard, but to the purpose How those things aboue-al-leadged, were to the purpose, and touched the very▪ Apple of the eye of the Question, shall bee shewed in due place. In the meane time, let the Reader note, that M. Fisher taketh more liberty, then the fained supposititious decree of Geneu [...], gi­ueth him: for, that alloweth a man, onely to lie for Gods honour; but heere M. Fisher coy­neth a lie, onely for M. Sweet's credit.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the fourth, tou­ching the Inuisibility of the Ro­mish Church for more than 500 yeeres after Christ.

Before I propound my Argument, I craue leaue in few words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse, wherewith [Page 55] you draw and delude many of the Igno­rant and Vnlearned. You beare them in hand, that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant, before Luther; and that all the world beleeued as you doo;

That your Church hath not been onely visible in all Ages, and all times, but emi­nently conspicuous and illustrious. Which is such a notorious vntruth, that I heer of­fer, before all this Company, to yeeld you the better, and acknowledge my selfe o­uercomne, if you can produce out of good Authors (I will not say, any Empire or Kingdome, but) any City, Parish or Ham­let, within fiue hundred yeers next after Christ, in which there was any visible as­sembly of Christians to be named, main­taining and defending either your Trent-Creed in generall, or these points of Pope­ry in speciall;

That there is a Treasury of Saints me­rits, and superaboundant satisfactions at the Pope's disposing;

That the Laity are not commanded by Christ's Institution, to receiue the Sacra­ment of the Lord's Supper in both kinds, &c. [...] [...] [Page 58] then to answer them, yet certainly it is now most needfull. If you mean not to answer them, at least repeat them. This you dare not doo, for feare your disciples should take offence. You dare not pull away the curtain, lest your nakednes should be seen. You are wise in your owne generation: you knowe how to keep those in the dungeon, whom you hould in captiuity. They must not see a glimpse of light, lest they should look after more. You forbid your Captiues to reade our Relati­ons; and in your owne, you slubber-ouer what­soeuer toucheth you neer. You well knew, M. Fisher, that Antiquity neuer knew your drossie treasure of superaboundant satisfactions, nor your dry suppers without the Lords Cup, nor your soli­tary Communions without Communicants, nor your vnintelligible praiers, nor your ignorant de [...]oti­on, nor your irregular canonizing of Traitors, nor your painted flames o [...] Purgatory, nor your cony­catching Indulgences, nor any of the like new trash. And therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at, which neither you, nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the fift, concer­ning the parts of the Question.

D. Featly.

There are two Quaeres in your Question: First, Whether the Prote­stant Church were in all Ages visible; and secondly, Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed, &c.

M. Fisher.

There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question: it is but one Question.

D. White.

Where there are two Propo­sitions, with two distinct Vtrums, there are two Questions, &c.

M. Fisher.

Conclude any thing syllogisti­cally, D. Featly.

D. Featly.

And is a Coniunction copu­latiue, and must adde somewhat to That that goes before. It is all one, as if you should expound the words of the Apo­stle, Prouide honest things before God and men; before God, that is, before men.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

My Question is meant to be but one entire Question. And so, to cut off all needlesse wrangling (made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm, whe­ther, and the Copulatiue et, and; as if Grammar-scho­lars had been disputing, rather than graue Diuines, who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar, especially in this case, where the sense of the speaker is plaine, and may well stand with Grammar) Master Fisher said, The question being mine, it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning: and my meaning was onely to make is one question, viz.

Whether the Protestant, Church were so visible, as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors?

Wherefore if you will dispute, you must dispute in my sense, and must conclude the affirmatiue, viz. The Protestant Church was so visible, as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

First, the parts of your question are distingui­shed really: for a Protestant Church may haue beene visible in many Ages, and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced, as your selfe confesseth in effect, page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require, that all [Page 61] visible mens names should bee vpon record, nor all re­cords produced.

Secondly, they are distinguished formally in words, whether the protestant Church, &c. And whether the Names, &c.

Thirdly, they are distinguished by points: for in the middle of your question, before the se­cond part of it, you your selfe put a colon thus(:).

Fourthly, you distinguish them your selfe in your answer, in the written copie which I haue: for to the first part you answer in the margent, It was not: which answer was not, nor can bee applied to the latter part.

Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense, or out of question you propound them senslesly, whether and whether, two whethers, meaning but one. Admit the construction you giue of the first part, viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages, that is, so visible, as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed: what construction then will you make of the latter clause, & whether the Names may be shewed?

Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet;

Montibus, inquit, erant, et erant sub montibus illis:

Or the like of the French:

Car com [...]' vn' Aigle mountant an clair soleil.
Car c'estoite vn' Aigle mountant an clair soleil.

It is as if I should propound such a question: Whether Iesuites be so honest men, that they [Page 62] will not equiuocate, and whether they will not equiuocate?

Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read, and whether they may bee read?

Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded, and whether they are not alto­gether confounded?

But you say, I am bound to dispute in your sense. What sense mean you? The sense that is to be made of your words, or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation? It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala, that you can­not in your disputing but smacke of it. I am bound to dispute with you, you say, in your sense. I grant you: am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence? But you say, that it is for Gram­mar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum, and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark, Cardinall Bellarmine, so, who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue (et) and: And he was a Priest of the most high God, &c. and your Transubstantiation, out of the Pro­noune, hoc: Hoc est Corpus, &c. & your Popes supre­macie, out of the Pronoune, tibi: Dico tibi Petre, &c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian? Nay, doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Gram­maticall argument Against the Iewes?Gal. 3. 16. &c. Non ex seminibus, sed ex semine; Not of seedes, as of many, but of thy seed, as of one.

[Page 63] How many ancient and later Diuines (whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them) haue substātially proued the Trinity, by a Gram­matical Argument drawne frō the Plural Num­ber, Faciamus, Let vs make man; yea & the Trinitie in vnity, by an Argument founded vpon the con­struction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall, Elohim, that is, Dij crea [...]it. It is no dispa­ragement, Master Fisher, for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar: But he, who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe, deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole, and to haue his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted in­to him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula, or some­what else. Yea, but Aquila non capit Muse a [...]: you are a high flyer, and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie: Yet take heed of such Flies, lest you bee choked with one of them, as your Pope Adrian was. Such dead Flies as you heere swallow, are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the sixt, touching the pre­tended necessitie of naming Prote­stants in all Ages.

Master Sweet.

What need you stand so much vpon this? If there were visible men, cer­tainely [Page 64] they may be named: name your visible Protestants, and it sufficeth.

Name visible Protestants in all Ages.A Romanist standing by.

D. Featly.

It seemes you are nominals, rather then reals, you stand so much vpon naming: will you vndertake to name vi­sible Papists in all Ages?

If neither you,The same Romanist standing by. nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages, for ought I know, the best way for vs is, to be all naturall men.

D. Featly.

This is the right reason of a Naturall.

M. Sweet.

If there were visible Prote­stants in all Ages, certainely they may bee na­med.

D. Featly.

That is a non sequitur, for the reasons before named by me. What say you to a people of Africa, who, if we may beleeue Pliny, haue no names at all?

M. Boulton.

Yet they haue descriptions, and may be knowne by some periphrasis.

D. Featly.

What say you then to the Hereticks called Acephali, who are so called, because their Head & Author can­not be named, nor particularly described, [Page 65] yet the Author was a visible man? Are all visible mens names vpon Record? are al the Records that were in former times, now to be produced?

Heere diuers of M. Fishers company called, Names, Names, Names.

D. Featly.

What? will nothing content you but a Buttery-book? You shall haue a Buttery book of names, if you will stay a while.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

To this obiection (touching the Acephali) M. Boulton answered, that those Acephali held some particular Doctrine, which did amount to the nature of a name, sufficient to distinguish them from others, in­sinuating heereby, that these Acephali were not Ano­nymi.

Further it may be answered, that it is not certaine, whether they had any particular Author: for some say, that they were a company, who in the controuersie be­twixt Iohn the Bishop of Antioch, & Cyril of Alex­andria, behaued themselues like Neutrals, submitting themselues to neither as to their Head. Others think, that they were certaine men, who, beeing the Fauou­rers of Petrus Mogus Moggus. the Heretick, did afterwards re­nounce him from beeing their Head, because he would not accurse the Councell of Chalcedon. Others say, [Page 66] that one Seueius, Bishop of Antioch, was their Au­thor.

But howsoeuer this particular were, it doth not con­clude, that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestants faith; whereof no story, nor other an­tient Monument maketh mention of names, or opinions, or places of aboad of any of them, or of those who opposed them, as Stories make mention of some of these circum­stances both of the Acephali, and whatsoeuer other eminent professors of euery true or false Religion. Wee doe not require, that all visible mens names should bee vpon Record, nor all Records produced. For, although to prooue such a visible Church as that of our Sauiour Christ, described in Scripture, to bee spred ouer the world, a small number of visible Professors bee not suf­ficient, Lib. de vnitate Saint Austen prooueth against the Donatists; yet to shew how confident wee are of our cause, wee for the present onely require, that Three eminent Prote­stants names in all Ages, be produced out of good Au­thors. But they are so farre from beeing able to produce three, as they cannot name one in euery Age (as is cleerely proued in the Protestants Apology) neither indeed can they abide with any patience, when they bee much pressed in this point, as appeareth by diuers who haue beene vrged, and in particular by D. Featly in this Conference; who hauing beene called vpon seuerall times to produce Names, as hee had vndertaken at one time, he burst foorth into these words, set down by the Protestant Relator: What? will nothing content you but a buttery-book? you shall haue a buttery-book, if you will stay a while. Note (Reader) this [Page 67] Doctors want of grauity and patience, and what a fit ti­tle he giues to a Catalogue of names of Protestants, who indeed are more like to be [...] found in a Buttery-book, then in any good Record of antiquity, as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther, who, after his Apostasie, more respected the Buttery, then any Ecclesi­asticall Story.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

In the Answer to this Paragraph, first, you shake hands with the Acephali: afterwards, you salute the Donatists: in the end, you take vp your lodging with the Spright of the buttery; in whose company, it seemes, you take most de­light. About the yeere 480.To beginne with your Acephali. These Acephali were a shole of Hereticks, bred (as it should seeme) of the spawne of Eutyches & Diosco­rus: for they held, that there was but one nature in Christ, viz. the diuine, which they affirmed to haue beene crucified. These differed from other Here­ticks, in this especially; That whereas other Hereticks for the most part took their names from the Author and Head of their Sect, (as the Arians from Arius, the Nestorians from Nestorius, &c); these Hereticks, because their first Author could not bee certainly knowne, were termed Acephali from [...] priuatiuo, and [...], signifying a Head; as if you would say, Head-lesse Hereticks. So that, as Pliny writes of the herb Anonymos, no­men non inueniendo inuenit, that it took it's name [Page 68] Anonymos, from the want of a name; so it may be truly said of these Hereticks, that they took their name from the want, or at least, ignorance of the name of their parent and first Author. Thus your Alfonso deduceth, and expoundeth their name: Haeretici Acephali dicti,Alfonsus a Castro aduer­sus Haereses. l. 4.sic nominati sunt, [...] simul insurgentes, nullus repertus est, quiillarum esse [...] princeps atque magister. The Hereticks tearmed Acephali, were so named, because multitudes of them rising together, there was found none, who might be their Head and Master. Neither doe you in your Answer contradict, but rather con­firme this Etymology, by rehearsing diuers and sundry opinions touching their Head and Au­thor. Which variety of opinions, and difference of Authors about him, plainely argueth, that no certainty was, or can be had of him, who he was, and much lesse what was his proper name. Wherefore, distrusting your former Answer, you adde a second, saying, Howsoeuer this particular were, it doth not conclude, that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestant faith, whereof no Sto­ry nor other antient Monument maketh [...] of names, or opinions, or places of aboad of any of them, [...] of those who opposed them. I grant, it doth not con­clude so much, neither was it brought to con­clude so much: it prooueth sufficiently what intended, viz. That your Question is grounded vpon a false Supposal: it cutteth M. Sweet's reason in the hams, If there were visible Protestants in [...] Ages; then certainly they may bee now named. The [Page 69] Head and Author of the Heresie of the Acephali was, I suppose, a visible man: yet can he not now, nor, for ought appeares, could he then, when hee broched his Heresie, be named. In like manner, the 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal, and all your Ancestors descending from Noah, were certainly visible men: yet can they not now be all named; and therefore M. Sweet's Ar­gument, ab authoritate negatiue, and à negatione vocis ad negationem rei, is a poore fallacie, fit to bee ranked with that which they wrongfully fa­sten on my Argument à priori, viz. petitio princi­pij, or the begging the Question.

I wil not say, that in disputing about the Acephali, you shew your selfe [...]: but certainly in that which followeth, you shew your self [...], else you would not so ignorantly apply Saint Au­stens proofes in his Book against Donatists, to dis­prooue our Church. For it is well knowne, that we teach with Saint Austen, that Christs visible Catholique Church is dispersed farre and wide ouer the face of the whole earth. But you are the Donatists of our Age: for, as the Donatists confined the Catholique Church of Christ, to Africa, and therein, to the Sect of Donatus: so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome, and the Popes adherents.Aug. Epist. 80. ad Hesychium. We teach with Saint Austen, Non Romanos, sed omnes gentes Dominus se­mini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit: That God promised with an oath to Abraham, not the Romans, but all Nations for his seed. We [Page 70] beleeue, that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are re­ceiued, and Christs Sacraments administred, God calles some by ordinary meanes; and con­sequently there is a Christian Church (though ne­uer hearing of Rome, or Papall Iurisdiction) who are ordained to saluation. Wee account all that professe the name of Christ, & Doctrine of the Gospell, to be members of the visible Catholick Church; yet with this difference, some are sound members and parts, others vnsound, and these more or lesse. Wee doubt not, but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian, and Mogol, in Asia, Africa, Europe, yea Italy, and Rome it selfe, euen in the denne of Antichrist. And therefore we are the true Catholicks, who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam, a Church truly Catholicke: and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times, who damne all sorts of Christians, saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads. What then speake you of three Protestants to be na­med in euery Age? Although our Sauiours words are most true,Mat. 18. Where there are two or three gathered in my name, there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words,Exhort. ad virg. are most true, Vbi tres sunt, Ecclesia est, licèt Laici sint: Where there are three,de poe [...]it. there is the Church, yea though those three bee Lay-men: and, In [...] Ec­clesia est, the Church is in one or two men: yea Alensis, and diuers among you, remembred by Tostatus, Prolog. in Euangel. affirme, that from the time of Christs [Page 71] suffering, vntil his resurrection, sides in sol [...] reman­sit beata Virgine, that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith; and consequently, that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her. Yet God be blessed for it, wee need not to fly to any such defence. We shall bring into the field, pares aquilas, nay, plures aquilas, more ensignes and banners then you, yea incomparably more, for the first and best Ages: and if you exceed vs in the latter, I wish you to remember, that in time, in liquors, the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome: and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs.

Yea, but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages, as we cannot name one in euery age. How proue you this? Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand. A beggerly Rapsodist, whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues, and the ragges that remaine, as I am informed, will be shortly by another puld away. Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement, and more integrity then our worthy Morton, now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield, hath prooued him to be: yet beeing a knowne Papist, to alleage meerely his work and words, to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe; and therefore you did well in this place, to knock at the Buttery-dore.

And heere I intreat the Reader to note, how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite. In all the other passages of his Book, there is no­thing [Page 72] that pretends to wit or mirth: but heer he is very pleasant, now his dull wit is whetted: he was not able in all the Conference, nor since in his Answer, to send out such a flash. Will you know the reason? The Spright of the Butterie pos­sesseth him, and thus he diuines; The Protestants cannot abide with any patience, when they bee much pressed in this poynt, as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged, and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference, who hauing been called vpon to produce Names, burst forth, &c.

It is true, I burst forth, not into a passion, as you would make the Reader beleeue, but into a laughter, as did the rest of the company: neither did I by any gesture or speech, discouer my im­patience, but your folly, who, when I alledged you reasons and testimonies, were not content with them, but called for emptie names, &c. And what was this, but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book; which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie? If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine, & surprized your iudgement, you might haue vnderstood, & plainly perceiued, that I cō ­pared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith, to a Buttery-book; but such a Catalogue as you then required, and you vsually bring, to proue the vi­siblity of your church, viz. a companie of names, and nothing else; testes sine testimonijs, witnesses deposing nothing for you. And, may not such [Page 73] emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to But­terie-books? Note, Reader, say you, what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants; who, indeed, are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke, then any good Record of Antiquitie, as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther; who, after his apostasie, more respected the Butterie, then any ecclesiasticall storie.

I maruell not, that you, Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry, and the Blacke-gard of Rome, haue a sharpe tooth against Luther; who, by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences, hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery, and baked for the Popes Kitchin. Certainly, if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with, hee did but hold that which hee got among you: for, after hee for sooke Sodom (which you Apostataes call apostasie) hee so hated and detested the glut­tony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers, and so sharpely inueighed against them, that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him; That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him, yet hee could not but confesse, that hee was much too blame in two things; that hee presumed to touch theBoth being No [...]me ta [...] ­gere.Popes Crowne, and the Monkes bellie. Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities, strike him out of your Butterie-booke, and put Father Parsons in his place, the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion, or religious equiuocation, because, good man, his name was [Page 74] strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Col­ledge in Oxford; and hee expeld, for falsifying the Butterie-booke, and thereby cozening, and purloining the Students of that Colledge.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the seauenth, touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori, and à posteriori.

Doctor Featly.

That Church, whose faith is eternall, is so visible, that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall: Ergo.

Master Fisher.

Faith eternall? Who euer heard of faith eternall? Saint Paul saith, that faith ceaseth.

Doctor Featly.

You haue a purpose, Master Fisher, to cauill: you know my meaning well enough by the terme per­petuall, to wit, that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first pub­lishing it, till this present, and shall con­tinue [Page 75] till his second Comming. The Church which houldeth this faith, you be­leeue, shal be so visible, that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages.

But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith: Ergo.

Master Fisher.

Your Argument is a falla­cie, called, Petitio principii.

Doctor Featly.

A demonstration à causa, or à priori, is not Petitio principij.

But such is my Argument: Ergo.

Is it not a sounder Argument, to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith, then (as you do) the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors? Visible professors argue not a right faith. Heretikes, Mahumetanes, and Gentiles, haue visible professors of their impieties: yet will it not hence fol­low, that they haue a right beliefe. On the contrary, we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture, that the Church which maintaineth the true faith, shall [Page 76] haue alwaies professors, more or lesse visible.

Master Sweet.

You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori, for that is to the question, and not à priori.

Doctor Featly.

Shall you prescribe me my weapons? Is not an Argument à priori, better then an Argument à posteriori? This is, as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife, and not with a sword or dagger. I will vse what weapous I list: take you what buckler you can.

Master Fisher.

A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue, than à priori.

Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Aca­demicall learning, in preferring a demon­stration à posteriori, A Protestant standing by. before that which proceedeth à priori. Is not a demonstrati­on of the effect from the cause, better then of the cause by the effect?

In this place, or vpon the like occasion againe offered, neerer the end of the dis­putation, Master Sweet replied.

M. Sweet.

This is to diuert the question. The question is not now, Whether our faith or [Page 77] yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith, but the question now is of the effect, to wit, the vi­sibilitie of your Church, which you ought to proue out of good Authors.

Doctor Featly.

May not a man proue the effect by the cause? Is there no other meanes to proue the effect, but by na­ming men, and producing authors for it?

Master Sweet.

An effect is posterius; the question is about an effect: therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori.

Doctor Featly.

What a reason is this? May not an effect bee prooued by his cause? Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect? or à posteriori, because an effect is posterius?

Master FISHER'S Answer.

Thus farre the Relator, who hath heere added much more then was said: and in particular, those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said, viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue, then à priori, Master Fisher did not speake: perhaps hee might say, That a proofe à posteriori doth better de­monstrate to vs, then à priori; not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori, be­fore that which is à priori; but that such a proofe à [Page 78] posteriori, as hee in this present question required, and as the question it selfe exacted, would better demon­strate or shew to all sorts of men, which is the true Church, then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori, to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church, as shall be shewed when need is, heereafter. At this present, it may suffie [...] say, to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility, that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith, yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church. For, supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith (according to the Prote­stants Relator) viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture, that the Church which maintaineth the true faith, shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible, and (as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers, giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting) so visible, as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors; supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker, contr. Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets, of the propagation, amplitude, and glorie of the Church; is most cleerly witnessed by Histories; and supposing lastly, out of Doctor Iohn White, in his way, p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs, but by Histo­ries. Supposing all this (I say), it is most apparant, that if there cannot bee produced (as there cannot) Names of Protestants, or of any other professors of Chri­stian faith in all Ages, out of Histories, to whom Gods promises agree, besides those which are knowne Roman [Page 79] Catholiques: not Protestants, nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith; and of which, al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

I maruel not, M. Fisher, that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds: for, you haue much adoo, with all your strength and skil, to get yourself out of the mire. M. Sweet, since he left our Vniuersities, and was metriculated into your Society, seemes (to speak in our Academicall Phrase) to haue resu­med gradum Simeonis, and to haue proceeded backward: for, whatsoeuer truth, in Logick or Philosophy, hee had learned in our Schools, he hath learned to vnlearn in yours. It seemeth, he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was; who took double pay of his scho­lars, for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others. Hee was taught in our Schools, that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demon­strated, Arist. analy [...]. poster. l. 1. c. 2but by the cause: for, Scire, est causam sci­re propter quam, &c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus, [...], a scientificall Syllogism, procee­ding of those things that are former in nature, and more knowne, and causes of the conclusion. All this he hath vnlearned, and will needs go a­bout to perswade vs, that An effect, because it is posterius, must needs be proued by an effect; and by the same reason, that effect, by another effect; and [...] [...] [Page 82] Thirdly, the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie, or mystery of iniquity in it; which is not the Church, but a preualent and predominant facti­on in it. The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member (though a sick and weak one) of the Catholique visible Church; and conse­quently, to haue some part in the gracious pro­mises made to the Church, in the Gospell: but the Papacy, or that predominant faction, is no member, but a botch or an aposteme in the Church; to which none of those promises be­long, yet many prophesies are cleerly fulfilled in it.

First, 1. Tim. 1. 4. Now, the Spirit speaketh ex­presly, that In the later times some shall depart from the faith, giuing heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of diuels, forbidding to marry, and commanding to ab­stain from meats, which God hath appointed to be recei­ued with thanksgiuing. This Prophesie hath been fulfild in the Papacy euer since Pope Hildebrand's time;Auent. annal. Boior. l. 5. edit Basil. ad Pern. p 448. in which, as Auentin [...] reports, the peo­ple in some places trod vnder foot the Hoasts that were consecrated by married Priests: Tales enim non esse sacerdotes, neque sacrificare, Hildebran­dus docebat: for, Hildebrand taught, that such were no Priests. And again, Maritos ab vxoribus separat, scorta, pudicis coniugibus: stuprà, incestus, adulteri [...], casto praefert matrimonio: Hee seuered men from their wiues: he preferred harlots before married wiues; fornication, adultery, and incest, before [Page 83] chaste marriage. And likewise in the Papacy that part of the Prophesie is fulfilled, touching the forbidding of certain meats; as for example, flesh, and egges, and white meats, and the like, and that for conscience sake, and vnder paine of deadly sin, and accounting such abstinence me­ritorious.

Secondly, that Prophesie in 2. Thes. 2. 9. Com­ming, after the power of Satan, in all power of signes and lying wonders, is daily fulfilled in the Papacy, and no where else. See their Legends, old and new.

Thirdly, that Prophesie, 2. Pet. 2. 18. They allure by the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonnesse, &c. is fulfilled in the Papacy, which permitteth pub­lick Stews, I might say, alloweth, because who keep those houses, do therefore pay a pension to the Pope.

Fourthly, that Prophesie, Iude 16. speaking great swelling words of vanity, is fulfilled in the Papacy; which teacheth, that the Church of Rome is the Mother and Queen of all Churches; that the Pope cannot erre; that hee is aboue the Law of God; that those who adhere to him, can more than merit heauen: they can supererrogate.

Fiftly, that Prophesie, 2 Pet. 2. 3. and Apoc. 18. 3. The Merchants of the earth are waxed rich, through the abundance of her delicacies. Through couetousnesse, shall they with feigned words make Merchandize of you, and the like in the Apoc. is ful­filled in the Papacie, which draweth an infinite [Page 84] treasure, by the Merchandize of pardons and indulgences for releasing soules out of Purgato­ry.

Sixtly, that Prophesie, 2. Thes. 2. 4. Hee as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himselfe that hee is God, is verified in the Papacie, which giueth the Pope the stile of Lord God, Head of the Church, Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda, &c. and power to dis­pence with breach of oathes, and incestuous mar­riages, &c.

Seuenthly, that Prophesie, 2. Thes. 2. 7. The my­stery of iniquity doth already worke: onely hee who [...] letteth, will let, vntill he be taken out of the way, and [...] shall that wicked man be reuealed. This I say, accor­ding to the interpretation of the Fathers, Ter [...]l and Chrysostome, De Resurrectio­ne. is fulfilled in the Papacie. Tertullian saith Romani imperij absessi [...], in de­cem Reges diuisa, Antichristum superinducit: The de­cay of the Romane Empire, diuided into [...] Kings,Homil. in 2. Thes. shall bee the bringing in of Antichrist. Chrysostome giueth some more light, saying, When the Romane Empire shall be taken away, [...]. then hee shall come. Now all the world seeth, that the Papacie is built vpon the ruines of the Romane Empire, and at this day possesseth the seat thereof.

Eightthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 9. 3. & 7▪ There came out of the smoke Locusts vpon the earth, &c. and on their heads, were (as it were) Crownes, &c. agreeth to your swarmes of Monks and Friers: and one of your own Exposi­tors [Page 85] interpreteth their Crownes, the round cir­cle vpon your shauelings head, like vnto a Crowne.

Ninthly, That Prophesie, Reuel. 13. 11. And I beheld another Beast comming vp out of the earth, and he had two hornes like a Lamb, and he spake as a Dra­gon, and hee exerciseth all the power of the first Beast, &c. agreeth to the Papacie and Pope, who re­sembleth Christ, whose Vicar hee calleth him­selfe, and yet carrieth himselfe like a Dragon in the Church, and he exerciseth also the power of the first Beast, to weet, the Romane Empire, de­scribed in the first verse, by seuen heads and ten hornes, because, as the first Beast, the Romane Empire, by power and temporal authority, so the Pope, by policie and spirituall iurisdiction, ruleth ouer a great part of the world.

Tenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 13. 18. Let him that hath vnderstanding, count the number of the Beast, for it is the number of a man, and his num­ber is 666. agreeth to the Pope, as I shewed be­fore out of Irenaeus. L. 5. aduersu [...] Haeres. c. 30. [...] nomen habet 666. et valdè verisimile est, et nouissimum regnum hoc habet vocabulum: Latini enim sunt qui nunc regnant: that is, that name Latinus hath in it these numerall let­ters, which make vp 666. and this is very like to be the name of the Beast: the last Kingdome hath this name, for they are Latines who now rule. Arethas agreeth with Irenaeus in iudgement, as Feuer dentius himselfe noteth.

Eleuenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 3. I saw [Page 86] a woman sit vpon a scarlet-coloured Beast, full of names of blasphemie, hauing seuen heads and ten horns, and verse 9, The seuen heads are seuen hils, on which the woman sitteth. and verse 18, The woman is the City which reig [...]eth ouer the Kings of the earth, agreeth with the Papacy, as Saint Ierom teacheth vs.

Twelfthly,Epist. 17. ad Eustochium, c. 7. et l. 2. aduer. Iouinianum.that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 4. The woman was araied in purple and scarlet color, and dec­ked with gold, and precious stones, and pearles, hauing a golden cup in her hand, full of abominations and sil­thinesse of her fornication: & supra, verse 2. With whom the Kings of the earth haue committed fornicati­on, and the inhabiters of the earth haue been made drunk with the wine of her fornication, agreeth to the Pa­pacy, which is set forth in most pompous man­ner, and enticeth the Kings and people of the earth to idolatry, which is spirituall fornication.

Thirteenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the bloud of the Saints; and with the bloud of the Martyrs of Iesus, agreeth to the Papacy or Romish Synagogue, which hath spilt the bloud of many thousand protestant Martyrs, since the 1000 yeer; in wth, Satan was let loose, vnder the name of Waldensian and Al­bigēsian hereticks, & the like names of reproach.

Fourteenthly, that Prophesie, Reuel. 17. 16. 17. And the tenne horns shall hate the Whore, &c. for, God put in their hearts, to giue their Kingdome to the Beast, till the Word of God be fulfilled, agreeth to the Pope and Papacy; to which, the greater part of the Kings of the earth, after a sort, gaue their [Page 87] Kingdomes, by submitting themselues, and sub­iecting their Kingdomes to the Antichristian Yoke. But now (God bee blessed) diuers Kings and States, whose eies God hath anointed with the eye­salue of the Spirit, haue discouered the abominati­on and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon, and begin to hate her, and make her desolate: and wee doubt not, but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them, and perfectly ac­complish this Prophesie, by stripping her naked, and eating her flesh, and burning her with fire.

Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone, Confingant tale quid Haeretici: confingant tale quid Papistae: Let the Papists feine some such like thing: let them deuise, if they can, any Protestant Church, or any other society or person in the world, in which the marks of Anti­christ aboue-described, are so conspicuously to bee seen, as in the Romish Synagogue, and the Head thereof, and then I will confesse, I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these charac­ters: but, till they haue brought some man, State, Society or Church in the world, in whom the former marks are more visible, than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head, I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man, who said pleasantly, that, If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist, he had very ill luck: for, if there should be a proclama­tion or warrant, to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse, [Page 88] without all question, the Pursuiuant would at­tache and bring the Pope of Rome.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the eightth, touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church, by the eternity and im­mutability of faith.

Doctor Featly.

That Church, whose faith is eternall, perpetuall, and vnchan­ged, is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be, and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall, perpetuall, and vnchanged:

Ergo the Protestant Church is so visi­ble, as the Catholick Church ought to be, and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be.

M. Fisher.

I distinguish the Maior. That Church, whose faith is perpetuall and vnchan­ged, so as the names can be shewed, is so visi­ble as the Catholique Church ought to be, and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be, I grant it.

[Page 89] That Church, whose faith is perpetuall, and vnchanged, yet so, as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages, is so visible as the Catho­lique Church ought to be, and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee, I deny it. To the Minor I apply the like distinc­tion, and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner.

Doctor Featly.

What? Answer you to the conclusion also? This is a straine of new Logicke.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

This Argument, as it is set downe, is so far from being a demonstration (whose propertie is, To conuince the vnderstanding) as it is not a probable or morall perswasion: for, I am verily perswaded, that no wise man (not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions) will or can bee so much as morally conuinced, or in any sort probably perswaded by it, that Protestants bee the true visible Church, more then a man (in case of doubt) can be by the like Argument, which a man may make, to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of, as any in all the parish, thus:

Those who are in heart true honest men, are as well spoken of, as any in all the parish.

But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men: Ergo.

[Page 90] As this proofe is not able to make any man, not par­tially affected, to beleeue these men to be well spoken of, or to bee honest-men: so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church, or to haue the true faith.

Secondly, if the terme, That Church, bee vnder­stood onely of a particular Church (as for example, the Church of England) it is so farre from a Logicall de­monstration, as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme, ac­cording to any of the vsual moods, Barbara Caelarent, &c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee, then both Maior and Minor are false: and so it cannot bee a demon­stration, whose propertie is, To consist of most certain­ly true propositions. The Maior in this latter sense is false, for that there may be a Church or companie, who may haue inward faith, eternall, and vnchanged (as for example, a Church of Angels) who, for want of visible profession, are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be. The Minor is false also: for, the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith, neither is that faith they haue, vnchanged; but so often changed, and so much subiect to change, as one may say (as a great person in Germany once said of some Prote­stants) What they hould this yeere, I doe in some sort know: but what they will hould next yeere, I doe not knowe. Which is true, in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule, sufficient to preserue them from change. But if Doctor Featly shall say, that hee neither meant the tearme, That Church, in either of the aforesaid senses, but meant to [Page 91] signifie by it, That one, holy, Catholique, and Apostolique Church, which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith, and also to bee perpetually visible, then indeed the Maior is true; but the Minor is most false: and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration; especially, when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius, viz. the visibilitie (which is easily knowne) by the truth of Doctrine (which is more hard to be knowne) especially by onely Scripture. Of the sense whereof (according to Pro­testants, who say, The whole Church may erre) no particular man can bee infallibly sure: for if the whole Church or companie (to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth, may erre, then much more may euerie particular man erre: and conse­quently, no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture.

Thirdly, this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question; for in asking which is the true vi­sible Church, or congregation of the true faithfull, wee aske, at least vertually, which is the true faith: in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith: yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church, that of it, being first knowne by other marks, wee may learne what is the true faith in all points, in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith.

Fourthly, although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church, yet inward faith alone, without some outward profession, by which it is made visible or sensible, doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church.

[Page 92] Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument, and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it, A demonstration à priori.

Doctor FEATLY's Reply.

I know, diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion, that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe, with Tullies Orator, and Xenophons Prince, & Castilians Courtier, name­ly, Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia, extra anni solisque vias. To vndertake to make a demonstration, consisting ex veris, primis, immediatis, prioribus, notio­ribus causis conclusionis, is all one, saith Ludouicus Viues, as if to cure a most dangerous disease, a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples; the first whereof is found in India; the second, amongst the Ceres; the third, in the Riphean Hilles; and the fourth, in the nest of a Phenix. If that demonstration which they call potissima, the soueraigne demonstration, and non par [...]iell, containing the quintessence of al ne­cessarie proofe (consisting of all tearmes recipro­call, and all propositions inabled, and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie, so called, [...], & [...], de omni, per se, et quatenus ipsum) were any where in vse, it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks, the most certaine Science, and fullest of euident demonstrations: but Pererius the Iesuite, and others with him, vn­dertake to prooue, that the Mathematicians vse [Page 93] no such demonstrations: and therfore many Lo­gicians and Philosophers conclude, that such ab­solute demonstrations, exalted to the highest de­gree of necessity, presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding, are meere imaginary speculati­ons. Let the Philosophers and Logicians, among themselues, end this controuersie. I will pro­nounce sentence peremptorily on neither side. But setting aside that Idea of demonstration, and speaking of such demonstrations à priori, or à causâ, as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuini­ty, I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration (as demonstrations go), current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick.

The Church holding the perpetuall faith, grounded on the eternall Gospell, hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith.

The true Church of Christ holdeth the per­petuall faith, grounded on the eternall Gos­pell:

Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith, &c.

For the Maior or first proposition, it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed be­fore, in the setting downe of the state of the Question, touching the Visibility of the Church, assertion the fourth; and partly vpon that Text of theRom. 10. 10. Apostle, With the hart man be­leeueth vnto righteousnesse: and with the tongue, con­fession is made vnto saluation.

The Minor or assumption is most necessarily [Page 94] true, because this eternall faith is the formall cause, constituting and making the true Church; for,Gasp. Lauren. De public, dis­putat. as Laurentius rightly argueth, Homines non con­stituunt Ecclesiam, quat [...]nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei, Romani &c. sedquatenus sunt fideles: ergo fides & doctrina fidei, est causa formalis & interna Ecclesiae, et per eam Ecclesia constituitur, et per eandem dignosci­tur: Men make not the Church, simply as they are Europeans, or Romanes, or Africans, or Bri­tans, or the like, but as they are of the faithfull, or holding the faith: therefore, faith and the Doctrine thereof, is the formall and internall cause of the Church, and by it the Church is made a Church, and distinguished from all other societies. Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation, or the Visibility of pro­fessors of the sauing faith: a proper attribute, or [...], demonstrated of the proper subiect, the true Church, by the proper and neerest cause, the eternity of faith: and what more is to be re­quired in a true demonstration, à priori? You will say, this demonstrateth, that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible, but not that the Prote­stant Church. I reply, either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church, or not: if it be supposed to bee the true Church, then, hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibi­lity of the true Church, I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church; if this bee not to bee suppo­sed nor granted, then you should haue primarily [Page 95] denied this, and put vs to the proofe of it; which beeing prooued, would inferre the Visibility: but this you did not, and (I think) durst not in the Conference, for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced; yet now, since the Con­ference, you are growne so hardy as to deny it, and therefore thus I proue it.

A Church, holding & professing entirely the perpetuall faith, needfull to saluation, is a true Church.

The Protestant Church holdeth and profes­seth entirely the perpetuall faith, &c.

Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur.

The Maior is confessed of all sides, and must be so, because there is no saluation without the Church: where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed, there must needs bee the Church.

The Minor or second proposition is thus con­firmed:

The Primitiue Catholique faith,Iud. 3. Reu. 14. 6.once giuen to the Saints, is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel.

But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth, is the Primitiue Catholick faith, once giuen to the Saints:

Therefore, the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth, is the perpetuall faith, &c.

The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoub­ted truth.

The Assumption is thus confirmed:

The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures, [Page 96] contained in the three Creeds; The Apostles Creed, the Nicen Creed, and the Creed of Atha­nasius and the foure first generall Councels, is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints.

The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures, and contained in the three Creeds, and foure Councels aboue-named:

Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primi­tiue Catholique faith, once giuen to the Saints.

In this last Syllogisme, the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels.

The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies.

First, by the publique profession, and practice of the Church of England, and other Protestant Churches.

Secondly, by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith, out of the princi­ples aboue-named.

Thirdly, by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe.

And first, it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions, or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches, that the Protestant Doc­trine is, that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued, vnder paine of eternall damnation, which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures, or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them. All the Protestant [Page 97] Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-na­med: and for the foure first generall Councels, there is no Protestant, who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood, if hee be cald thereunto.

Secondly, there is no particular positiue Ar­ticle of the Protestant faith, which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures. Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance, where and when they will; we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field. On the contrarie, besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference, there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church, which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture: & therefore, according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques,Irenaeus ad­uers. Haeres. l. 3 c. 2. Cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur, in accu­sationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum, quasi non rectè habeant, neque sint ex authoritate, & quia variè sunt dictae et quia nō possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionē, nō enim per literas traditā illam, sed per viuam vocē: When they are conuin­ced by Scripture, they fall on accusing the Scrip­tures thēselues, as if they were not as they ought to be, or were not of authoritie, and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered, and that out of them the truth cānot be found, by those who are ignorant of tradition; for that it (viz. the truth) was not deliuered by letters, but by word of mouth. Is not this in part your plea at this day, that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities; that they re­ceyue countenance & whole authority quoad nos, [Page 98] from the Church; that the written Word, without vn­written traditions, is not sufficient.

Thirdly, there is no positiue Article of our faith, which you your selues, or the learnedst a­mong you doe not hold and beleeue as Catho­lique: therefore wee are on a sure ground, euen by your owne confession.

To instance in most of the principall Articles.

First, wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God: you beleeue them also to bee so, but adde vnto them the Apocrypha.

Secondly, wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments, in Hebrew and Greek, to bee authenticall, and of vndoubted authoritie: you (I hope) beleeue so too; but you adde, that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also.

Thirdly, wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith: you beleeue so, but adde thereunto the vnwritten word.

Fourthly, we beleeue, that Christ is the Head of his Church: you beleeue so likewise, but adde vnto him a visible Head, the Pope.

Fiftly, we beleeue, that there are two places; Heauen for them that shall bee saued, and Hell for them that shall bee damned: you beleeue so too, but adde thereunto other places more, Pur­gatorie, Limbus patrum, and Limbus infantum.

Sixtly, wee beleeue, that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth: you beleeue so too; but, you adde, that hee may bee analogi­cally and relatiuely worshipped by Images.

[Page 99] Seuenthly, we beleeue▪ that we ought to call vpon God: you beleeue so too; but adde heere­unto, that you may call vpon Saints.

Eightthly, we beleeue, that Christ is our Me­diator, both of redemption and intercession: you beleeue so too, but you adde to him Angels and Saints, vpon whose intercession and merits you in part relie.

Ninthly, we beleeue; that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vpon earth, and pray in generall for the Church militant: you beleeue so too; but adde, that they haue knowledge of our particular necessities, and pray to God in speciall for vs.

Tenthly, we beleeue, that Christ hath institu­ted two Sacraments in his Church; Baptisme, and the Eucharist: you beleeue so too, but adde to them fiue other; Matrimonie, Penance, Or­dination, Confirmation, and Extreme Vnction.

Eleuenthly, we beleeue, that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort, that all those who worthily receiue them, participate also of sancti­fying grace: you beleeue so too; but adde, that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere opera­to (a worse Solecism in Diuinity, than in Gram­mar), and that God is tied vnto them; so that all children, dying without Baptism, are necessarily damned.

Twelfthly, wee beleeue, that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administra­tion of the Sacrament: you beleeue so too; but [Page 100] you adde, that the effect of the Sacrament depen­deth vpon the intention of the Minister.

Thirteenthly, we beleeue, that in the Eucha­rist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body: you beleeue so too; but adde, that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnder certain Accidents, the elements beeing transub­stantiated.

Foureteenthly, we beleeue, that we are iusti­fied and saued by the merits & Passion of Christ: you beleeue so too, but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction.

Fifteenthly, we beleeue, that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vpon earth: you beleeue so too; but adde ther­unto, that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also.

Sixteenthly, we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds; the Apostles, the Nicene, and that of A­thanasius, and the foure generall Councels: you beleeue them also, but adde a fourth Creed, viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope, and annexed to the Councell of Trent.

Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions. That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation, you (and, in a manner, all the Christi­ans in the world) hold as we. And therefore our doctrine is Catholique, according to Vincentius Rule, quòd ab omnibus, quòd vbique, quòd semper: whereas your additions to the Catholique faith, [Page 101] were neuer maintained, neither by all Christians in any Age, nor by any Christians in all Ages. Neither you, nor all the Papists in the world, are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith, wherein you differ from vs, to be Catholique.

And now let vs hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration.

Obiect. 1. First, you say, it conuinceth not the vnderstanding, and therefore is no demonstra­tion.

Answer. This obiection of yours sheweth, that you need to be informed in your vnderstan­ding, how a demonstration conuinceth the vn­derstanding. It is not the property of a demon­stration, actually to conuince the vnderstanding, but potentially or vertually. The meaning of this Proposition, A demonstration conuinceth the vnder­standing, is this; that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man, to assent to the conclusi­on, the premises beeing before apprehended by him: and euery demonstration is a Syllogisme: and euery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis. To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon; which the Astrono­mers demonstrate by the cause, to weet, the in­terposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon. Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man, he must first haue the tearms expounded vnto him: afterwards he must be taught, that the Moon hath not light of [Page 102] her self, but receiueth it from the Sunne; third­ly, that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines. Fourthly, it must be shewed how, in such points, called by Astronomers, Caput & cauda Draconis, the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed: whereby it comes to passe, that, by the interposi­tion of the earth, the Moon is debarred from re­ceiuing light by the Sunne-beames. And thus in the end, the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration.

That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne, by the interposition of the earth, is eclipsed.

But the Moon, in the points aboue-named, viz. the head and taile of the Dragon, is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne, by the interposition of the earth:

Ergo the Moon alwaies in those points is e­clipsed.

Aquinas sheweth, that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstra­tion, but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and sup­positions heerunto belonging. Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstan­ding, by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme; but, the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises, it enforceth and compelleth a rec­tified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion: In like manner, I grant, that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently con­uince [Page 103] a man either vtterly ignorant, or in error, as I feare you are, to assent to the perpetuall Visibi­lity of the Protestant Church. But if, as I enfor­ced you to assent to the Maior, so you would haue but staied, and suffred mee to inforce the Minor, will you, nill you, you should haue beene com­pelled to yeeld to the conclusion.

But say you, in your worthy witty instance, This Argument doth no more perswade a man, that the Protestants are the true visible Church, then a man, in case of doubt, can bee perswaded by the like Argu­ment which a man may make, to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the pa­rish thus:

Those who are in heart honest men, are as well spoken of as any in all the parish, &c.

Good Sir, let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill: for the whirling about of the sailes, wrought very much vpon your braine, as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell. Had not you had a whimpsy in your head, you would neuer haue set this your Paralo­gisme, as a Parallel to my demonstration. In my demonstration, the Maior, rightly vnderstood, is vndoubtedly true, and de fide, as your selfe con­fesse, page 23. The Scripture doth shew, the ho­ly, Catholique and Apostolique Church, both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith, and also to bee perpe [...]tually visible. But in your Syllogisme, the Maior is apparantly false. If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of, how can the Apostles words stand, Sine [Page 104] per famam,2. Cor. 6. 8.siue per infamiam, either by good re­port, or by euill report, &c? Nay, how can the words of truth it selfe be verified,Mat. 5. 11. Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake? Againe, perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profes­sion thereof: but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame, but honest and vertuous actions. It is not the inward burning, but the outward shining of our light before men, which maketh men to see our good works, and thereby glorifie God in vs for them. Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme, wee haue the better: and therfore, this your Syl­logisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it, A demonstration, but with this addition of Fishers folly. To be an honest man in heart, is both prius naturâ, and morally eligibilius, in nature before, and more desireable, then to be well spoken of. Mal­lem de me dicas, Vir bonus est, ergo bonae famae, quàmè contra. By this very argument, the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid, and [...], a secundary proofe, and a common accident to the truth of faith. And as wee therefore enquire of fame, that we may know a mans vertue: so wee therefore enquire of the true Church, as your selfe confesse, Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith. We seeke a guide, that we may finde the way; and not the way, that wee may finde a guide. If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame, (put case he liued in a De­sart) I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame: [Page 105] but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument, I would produce fame. In like manner, if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith, then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof, I would hold it as you doe, a point of principall moment, to enquire of the Visibility of professors: but sith we haue another more easie, direct, and infallible meanes to prooue it, viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures; you shall giue me leaue, M. Fisher, rather to follow this Method generally prescribed, and vsed by the Antient Fathers, as I haue shewed before, Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you.Touching the Visibility of the Church. Assertion 7.

Obiect. 2. Secondly, you charge my demon­stration with falshood in both the premises. The Maior you say is false, for that there may bee a Church or company, who may haue inward faith, eternall and vnchanged; as for example, a Church of Angels, &c. An instance as wide from the mark, as the heauen is distant from the earth. Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation. Are Angels visible? Are all [...]orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels? Doe you hold it for a good interpretation, If thy brother of­fend thee, tell the Church; that is, tell the Angels, or a Church of Angels? Although Christ bee the Head of Angels, and they make a part of the tri­umphant Church in a large sense; yet I neuer [Page 106] read of a Church of Angels. Bellarmine saith in ex­presse tearmes, Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Eccle­sia est Societas quaeda [...]m, non Angelorum, sed homi­num. The Church is a Society or company, not of Angels, but of men. If I should haue brought such an Argument, to proue the militant Church vpon earth (of which we disputed) to bee inuisi­ble, because the Angels are inuisible; I should haue suspected my selfe, to haue beene as wise as hee that adored, for a Relique, one of the fea­thers of the Angell Gabriels wings.

Erubuit, salua res est, you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer: and therfore you in­sist not vpon it, but passe to the Minor, burdening it with falshood; saying, The Protestants faith is not vnchanged, but so often changed, and so much subiect to change, as one may say, as a great person in Germa­ny once said of some Protestants, What they hold this yeere, I doe in some sort know, but what they will hold next yeere▪ I doe not know. I can requite you with a like Apophthegme:

The Popish faith is so subiect to change, that wee may say of it, as a learned person in France once said, That if a man would finde the Popish Te­nets, he must looke into an Almanack for them. At one time, the murther of Kings is Catholique doc­trine, viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre. At another time, they pull in that horne: and then for a season, such murder is disauowed. That the Councell is aboue a Pope, was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the [Page 107] fifts time: it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths.

About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent, the edition of the vulgar byAnno Dom. 1590. Sixtus Quin­tus, was authenticall, and not to bee reiected vp­on any pretence. Not long after, it was not au­thenticall: ForAnno. Dom. 1592. Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places. Now goe and vp­brayd vs with our late reuised translation: but see withall, that you dispence with the Pope, that he may dispence with you. One yeere the im­maculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church; another yeere it is impugned. Lastly, in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie, among you, that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques: in the next yeere wee reade, that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath. The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent, arrogant, profane, Antichristian, Luciferian, in SaintGreg. Epist. l. 4. Epist. 78. & 82. & alibi. Gre­gories time: but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar. Yea, but say you, The Pro­testants haue no certaine and infallible rule, sufficient to preserue them from change. Belike then, the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule; but vnwritten traditions are: the Word of God is no sure ground, the Popes Decree is. The A­postle then hath much deceyued vs, who saith, Let God bee true,Rom. 3 4.and euerie man a lyer. If euerie man a lyer, euerie Pope too. [...], homo, not [Page 108] vir onely, to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability. You adde, to piece out your for­mer argument, that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius, viz. the visibilitie, which is easily knowne, by the truth of Doctrine, which is more hardly knowne, especially by onely Scripture; of the sense whereof, according to the Protestants, who say, The whole Church may erre, no particular man can bee infallibly sure. The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance; whereunto I adde: First, that visibilitie is more knowne to sense, then the truth of doctrine, but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Second­ly, the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense; but not the per­petuall, former, and future visibility of any one Church, much lesse of the vniuersall. And there­fore it is much easier, out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture, together with the three Creeds, knowne to the simplest among vs (where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue) to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation, then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visi­ble professours out of good Authors in all Ages. Yea but no man, say you, can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture, because Protestants hold, The whole Church may erre. In thus arguing, you bewray either ignorance, or an ill conscience. Ignorance, if you knowe not, that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church, and the Church representatiue; of poynts necessarie to saluation, [Page 109] and not necessarie; of euident Texts of Scripture, & of obscure. But if you knew these distinctions, as indeed you cannot but knowe them (hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers) you dispute against your conscience. Because, in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture, the Church may erre; will it therefore follow, that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and e­uident Texts? In which, if wee may beleeue Aug. de doct. Christ. l. 2. c. 9. In iis enim quae aperte in Scrip­tura posita sunt, inueniuntur illa omnia, quae fide continent mo­res (que) viuendi.Saint Austin, all those things are found, which concerne faith and manners. Will it follow, be­cause wee hold, that your Church representa­tiue, that is, the Pope and his Consistorie, or the Pope and his Councell may erre, that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ, con­sisting of all the visible Christians in the world, in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture, may erre? The Church follow­ing her guide, the Word of God, is sure not to erre, whether vniuersall or particular. For which preseruation from errour, we doubt not, but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistāce to the generall Councels, then nationall: yet in both it sometimes falleth out, that, as Austen ob­serueth, Priora à posterioribus emendentur: the former are corrected by the later.

Thirdly, you beg an Argument from your selfe, drawne from a beggerly fallacy, called Petitio principij, or begging your maine question. You say, that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij, and therefore no demonstration: but I [Page 110] prooued it then, and since confirmed it, that it was a Demonstration, and therefore no petitio principij. Let the Reader heere obserue, how your Answers and Obiections interfere, and sup­plant one the other. Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus; but you, a petitio principij. Againe, elsewhere you call this Argument, A digression from the que­stion, & a diuersiue proofe, and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall. Wherefore as Xenopha­nes▪ opposed a motion made by Eleates, Arist. Rhet. l. 2. [...]. in behalfe of Leucothea, to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations, and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse: this motion, sayth hee, ouerthroweth it selfe. If wee sacrifice to Leu­cothea as an immortall Goddesse, we must not bewaile her death: and if we bewaile her death, as being a mortal woman, wee must not sacrifice to her, as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner, whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers, may obiect a­gainst them; If the Argument aboue-named, was a petitio principij, it could not be a transitio à genere in genus: and if it were a transitio à genere in genus, it could not be a petitio principij. If it were a diuer­siue proofe, it could not bee identicall: if it bee identicall, as you here affirme, it cannot be diuer­siue: for, it implyes an apparant contradiction, to say,In prouing the same thing by the same thing, digres­seth from the same thing. that a man, in proouing idem per idem, doth digredi ab eodem. But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question: For (say you) in asking [Page 111] which is the true visible Church, or Congregation of the true faithfull, wee aske, at least vertually, which is the true faith. By the like reason, you might proue euery Demonstration à priori, to bee a petitio prin­cipij: For, in propounding any question touching the effect, wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause. And therefore Aristotle, in lib. 2. Poster. Analyt. acutely prooueth, omnem quae­stionem esse quaestionem medij; that euerie scienti­ficall question is, in effect, a question of the me­dium or the cause. By the like Argument you might prooue, that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum, are petitiones principij: be­cause, in propounding any question touching the definitum, wee, at least vertually, inquire of the definition. If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct, the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij: how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij: when, as it is certaine, they are distinct really, as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument: to which now I ad­dresse my selfe.

Fourthly, you impeach my Demonstration, by pushing againe at the Maior; saying, Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church; yet inward faith alone, without some outward profession, by which it is made visible, or sen­sible, doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church.

It is a true rule in Philosophy: Vehemens sensi­bile corrumpit sensum; the bright light of a De­monstration [Page 112] so buzzardeth you, that you see not where you are, nor knowe what you are about. I am so farre from affirming, that inward faith, without outward profession, maketh a visible member of Christs Church; that from inward faith, I inferre necessarily ex consequenti; outward pro­fession, which (as I sayd in the Conference) makes a member of the visible Church. Doo you grant the consequence, or deny it? If you grant it, my Argument proceedeth: if you deny it, confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles, your great Clerke,Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 13. Cardinall Bellarmine, makes good the consequence in this manner: Qui non confitentur fidem, sed, eâ in corde retentâ, exteriùs profitentur per­fidiam et idololatriam, non sunt boni, nec saluantur; cùm ad Roman. 10. dicat Apostolus, Corde creditur ad iusti­tiam, ore autem fit confessio ad salutem: et Mat. 10. Om­nis qui negauerit me coram hominibus, &c. They are not good men, nor shall bee saued, who do not confesse the faith; but, keeping it in their hearts, outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry: For, the Apostle, Rom. 10. saith, With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes; but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation: And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men, him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen.

Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument, and demonstrate to me, though à posteriori, what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the ninth, touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher, out of Doctor Field.

Doctor Featly.

That Church whose faith, &c.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith, once gi­uen to the Saints: Ergo.

M. Fisher.

I answer the Minor. If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe, I ab­solutely deny it: but if this proposition bee considered (as it must bee) as related to the first Question, and the end thereof, I further adde, that it is not pertinent to that end, for which the whole Dispute was intended; to weet, to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith, necessary to saluation, without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ: and, con­sequently, the Visibility of the Church is first [Page 114] to bee shewed, before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed.

D. Featly.

First, what speake you of those who are not able by their owne a­bility to finde out faith? Is any man able by his owne ability, without the help of diuine grace?

Secondly, what helpeth the Visibility, to confirme the truth of the Church? Vi­sibility indeed prooues a Church, but not the true Church.

Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field, of the Church; supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer. Whereunto D. Featly promised, Answer should bee made, when it came to their turne to answer; now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher.

Master FISHER his Answer.

These words either were not spoken, or M. Fisher did not regard them, beeing in the midst of his Answer: in which he went on, shewing the necessity of a visible Church, by a saying of D. Fields, viz. ‘Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day, are so many in number, and so intricate in nature, that few haue time and leasure; fewer, strength [Page 115] of wit and vnderstanding▪ to examine them: what re­maineth for men, desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence, but diligently to seeke out, which, a­mong all the Societies of men in the world, is that Spouse of Christ, the Church of the liuing God, which is the pillar of the Truth; that so they may embrace her Communion, follow her direction, and rest in her Iudgement?’

M. Fisher therefore (I say) beeing busily spea­king this, did not regard what D. Featly did then say, but might easily haue answered first, that he neuer meant, that any were able of themselues, without help of Gods grace, to attaine the true faith; which hindreth not, but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning, by which they can better examine controuersies of faith, then those that want these abilities. Secondly, although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church, yet it (supposing Gods promises, that the true Church shall be alwaies visible) much helpeth: and want of Visibility in any one Age, prooueth a company not to bee the true Church.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field, and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pe­lagianisme. To your allegation out of D. Field, I answer, Mitte quod scio, Die quod rogo. D. Fields speech I acknowledge, which is very pertinent to his end, but nothing to yours; that it is requi­site [Page 116] for all Christians, especially the weaker, to fly to the Church, and hide themselues vnder her wings, to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites, as D. Field prudently obserueth: so no Protestant, to my knowledge, denieth. Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught, as to honor God their Father, so also the Church their Mother. Now, because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe, as if shee were the Spouse of Christ, and true Mother of all Christians; it is most be­hoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules, to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot; the sincere milke, and whol­some brests of the one, from the poysoned dugs of the other: to which end, D. Fields Treatise of the Church, is a singular help: which when I reade, mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iri­tarius, Plin. nat. histo. l. 1. cap. much innobled by Pliny, qui rectos [...]t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos, who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his bo­dy: so able, so sinewie a Writer is D. Field; who hauing well traced true antiquity, doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons, and conquereth you with them: hee takes away your strongest harnesse, in which you trust, I meane, the Catholique Church; proouing it to bee ours, not yours. To the authority of Scriptures (which I here beginne at) hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God, the pillar of truth, in whose determination and Communion, both wee and you are to rest. But doe you, M. Fisher, in earnest [Page 117] or with mentall reseruation, appeale to D. Fields iudgement? Me thinks you draw the latch, as if you meant to enter into the penetralia & Clozet of that work of the Church. If you bee willing so to doe, I will leade you into the Entrie. Turne me but the page ouer, you shall finde, before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you, be en­ded, a Writ of Error sued against that Church, which wil needs be the Mistresse and Mother of the rest, nay, the whole Church. There hath she her paterne from the Donatists, of appropria­ting to her self the title & priuiledges of the Church, ex­cluding all other from the hope of saluation. So the Ro­manists cast into hel all the Christians of Greece, Russia, Armenia, Syria, Aethiopia, because they refuse to be sub­iect to the tyranny of the pope; as also the States & king­doms of Europe, which haue freed themselues from their Aegyptiacall bondage; That the Romanists abuse vs with pretences of antiquity, vnitie, vniuersalitie, ma­king the simple beleeue, that al is antient which they pro­fesse, and that the consent of all Ages is for them: whereas it is easie to prooue, that all the things wherein they differ from vs, are nothing but nouelties and vn­certainties; that the greatest part of the Christian world hath been diuided from them for certaine hun­dreds of yeeres; and more to that purpose: which in that preface he promiseth, and in the tractate prooueth. To which booke, me thinkes, M. Fi­sher, or some other of his pew-fellowes, should vn­dertake in order, proutiacet, to make answer, or else neuer to haue beene so hardie, to cite that [Page 118] Author, whose lines vpbraid them with i [...]abili­tie or negligence, so long as they suffer so lear­ned and laborious a treatisely bent point blank against the walles of Rome to remain vnbatte­red.

Now to your alleuiation: you say in that speech of yours, concerning men not able, by their owne abi­lities, to finde out the infallible faith: you meant not to imply, that any were able of themselues, without helpe of Gods grace, to attaine the true faith: I hope, you meant not, because I trust that you are not sunke so deepe into Pelagianisme. Yet you should haue circumcised your lips and tongue, and kept bet­ter the Apostles rule,1. Tim. 1. 13. to hold fast the for me of sound words: for, what Christian eare can endure to heare of men able, by their owne ability of wit or lear­ning, to find out faith? Wit and learning, I grant, are Gods good gifts, [...], not to bee vnder-valued, much lesse contem­ned; yet let me tell you, that wit and learning without grace (such is the corruption of our nature) rather hinder, then further our conuer­sion, as Saint Austen writes in his confessions, not with inke, but with teares: and on the con­trary, grace without eminent wit or learning, out­strips naked wit & learning, in our race to heauen. Indocticoelum rapiunt, et nos cum doctrinis nostris, &c.

As for that which you adde, that Visibility though alone it prooue not the true Church, yet that it much helpeth to the proof thereof, I much desire you to help me heere, in shewing me how [Page 119] it much helpeth: for Visibility is but a common accident, and I finde no topick place in Aristotle, ab vno accidente communi ad subiectum. Suppose a meere naturall man were to choose his religion, and his Church, what will Visibility helpe him? Besides, all sorts of Christian Churches, Iewish Synagogues, Mahumetane and Gentile Congre­gations are visible: will you say That is the truer Church which is more visible? If you carrie it away from vs by that marke, the Greek Church will carrie it away from you; the Mahumetanes, from the Greeke Christians; and the Idolatrous Gentiles, from all. But this poynt hath bin hand­led before in my sixt & eight Assertion, touching the Visibility of the true Church: therfore omit­ting all farther prosecution of this point, and my proofe by Syllogisme, I come now to iustifie my induction.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the tenth, touching the induction and breaking vp of the Conference.

The Protestant Church was so visi­ble, that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof, may be produced in the first hundred yerees, and [Page 120] second, and third, and fourth, et sic de cae­teris, and so in the rest: therefore it was so in all Ages.

First, I name those of the first Age: and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all, our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ, blessed for euer, &c.

M. Fisher.

Name of all Ages, or else you do nothing.

D. Featly.

I cannot name all at once. Will you haue me name men of so many Ages, at one breath, &c?

M. Fisher.

You shall not begin at Christ and his Apostles.

D. Featly.

You are not to make my In­duction: I will begin with Christ and his Apostles, &c.

M. Fisher.

Name the rest in all Ages, and then I will answer.

D. Featly.

First, answer to the first Age: and then I wil proceed to the second, &c.

M. Fisher.

I will not answer you any thing, till you haue made your Catalogue.

D. Featly.

M. Fisher,I charge you, as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement, to an­swer [Page 121] directly, whether Christ and his A­postles taught our faith, or yours, &c.

Notwithstanding this deep Charge, M. Fisher still refused to answer to the ar­gument of instance in Christ and his A­postles, &c.

Master FISHER'S Answer by a Counter-relation.

After this, D. Featly named, for the first Age, our Lord and Sauiour Christ, and his twelue Apostles, and Saint Paul, and Saint Ignatius. After which, he staied awhile, as if he had studied for more Names: but, not remembring any more whom he would set down for the first Age, he said, These (not denying others) may serue for the first Age.

Then turning to M. Fisher, he said, Let vs dispute of these. No, said M. Fisher: name, first, of all Ages. What, said D. Featly? Will you not dispute of Christ and his Apostl [...]es? Yes, said M. Fisher, in due place; but first name the rest in all ages, and then I will an­swer you. What, said D. Featly? Doo not Christ and his Apostles deserue the first place? M. Fisher. I will not answer, before you haue named the rest.

Then said D. Featly in a heat, Well: you will not dis­pute of Christ and his Apostles: then you grant Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants. And so instantly, without expecting M. Fisher's Answer, he turned him­selfe to the Audience, and said, Hee grants Christ and [Page 122] his Apostles to be Protestants. Whereupon, diuers of the Audience made such a shout, as if they had gotten a victory; with such a noise, as M. Fisher, endeuouring to answer, for a time could not be heard. But he rising vp, and with his hand and voice crauing silence, made such as would heare him, vnderstand, how falsely D. Featly had slandered him to his face: and either then, or vpon some like occasion, he said, What may I expect behinde my back, when you thus mis-report mee to my face?

And in this sort, when many of the company were willing to depart; D. Featly, beeing called vpon (as it seemed) by some of his companions, to goe away, did arise, and offer to be gone: yet, in his rising, he tur­ned to M. Fisher, saying, Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles, or no? To which M. Fisher said, I will, if you will stay; and stretching out his hand, hee took D. Featly by his arme, offering to stay him: yet hee, in that abrupt manner, went away.

Doctor FEATLY's Reply.

This last passage hath been so duely pondered by those honourable, reuerend, and worshipfull Personages, who haue set their hands to the At­testation, that, to adde any more to that which is there most exactly discussed, were to offer post Protogenem lineam ducere, to draw a line after the most curious painter. The matter of fact then beeing cleered by witnesses beyond all excepti­on, I owe nothing to M. Fisher for his Counter-relation, [Page 123] saue onely satisfaction to a similitude of debt, wherewith hee thinkes hee payes mee home, pag 61.

Master FISHER'S reflection, cap 3.

To do as Doctor Featly did, is no fit way to giue sa­tisfaction to all sorts, expecting resolution of the afore­said most important question: As it were a very in­sufficient way, to giue satisfaction in a debt of twentie pieces of gold to another his creditour, if in stead of actu­all payment required, hee should say and offer to proue by a syllogisme, yea, by a demonstration à priori, that he can pay him the said twentie pieces, and being vrged to lay downe the particular peeces of gold, hee saith, that by an induction hee will lay downe those pieces of gold one after another; and being farther pressed to doe so, hee, not hauing one piece of gold of his owne, taketh out of his creditors purse, one or two, or more pieces; and laying downe one or two of them, saith, Lo, here is one or two towards the twentie: and being neuer so much vrged, he will not lay downe any more, vntill his creditour first dispute with him, whether these two or three pieces laid downe bee his owne or no: and being hereupon seriously told by his creditour, that vnlesse he laid downe all the pieces of gold, hee did not satisfie the debt, but lost his credit and forfeited his band; he then falleth into passion, and saith, What? will you haue mee eat my dinner at a bit? I cannot lay downe all at once. Will you dispute with mee about these, or no? Which his creditor refusing to doe, vntill all the twentie [Page 124] pieces bee actually laid downe; hee lastly saith, Well, you will not dispute about these: you grant these to bee mine. And so, without expecting answer, hee turneth to the companie, saying, Hee granteth these to bee mine, and taketh vp his cloke, and runneth away, not regar­ding that his creditour, so soone as hee can open his mouth, biddeth him stay, and denieth anie such grant to haue been made by him; yea, offereth to dispute with him of that poynt, if hee will stay. I suppose, no man will thinke this kinde of dealing, to bee an honest and good satisfaction in a debt of monie: and therefore much lesse should it bee accounted good in matters of for more importance and value, and specially in satisfying this (by Doctor Featly vndertaken) debt, of shewing names of visible Protestants in all ages out of good Au­thors.

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply.

Wee haue had triall before of your Gram­mar, Logicke, and Philosophie, and heer now you giue vs a cast of your Rhetoricke. The parts of a good similitude, called Protasis and Antapo­dosis, ought to be like two eyes looking one way, and not asquint: else they make not a similitude, but a dissimilitude. Let vs then view the aspect and cast of these your eyes. As a man, who being to pay a debt of twentie pieces or pounds to another his creditour,Protasis. in stead of actuall paying, offers to proue by a Syllogisme, that hee can pay him: and afterwards being pressed, not hauing [Page 125] one piece of gold of his owne, taketh out one or two pieces out of his creditours purse, and layeth them downe, and will lay no more downe, vntill his creditour first dispute with him whether the pieces laid downe be his owne or no. And the creditour refusing so to doe, till the whole summe were laid downe, hee the debtor taketh vp his cloke, and runneth away: Euen so Doctor Featly, Antapodosis. being to proue the visi­bilitie of the Protestant Church, first proued it by a demonstration à priori, and afterwards, at the importunitie of his aduersarie, vndertooke also to proue it à posteriori, by producing a catalogue of Names from Christ to Luther; and hee began, recto et naturali ordine, with the first age, instan­cing in Christ and his Apostles, very earnestly pressing and vrging, yea and adiuring also Master Fisher to answer this instance: And vpon Master Fishers finall and peremptorie refusall thereof, he was pulled away by the companie, and not suf­fered to argue any longer with such a one, that refused to answer Christ and his Apostles. Hold hooke and line, and the Fisher shall catch a Gudgeon. I grant, a Similitude needeth not cur­rere quatuor pedibus, runne vpon foure feet; yet certainly it is a very bad Similitude that is lame of all foure, as this is; and therefore cannot draw Dunne out of the mire. First, to produce a Cata­logue of Names, was no debt, but rather a merit or worke of supererrogation: for the visibilitie of the Protestant Church may bee, and hath beene [Page 126] sufficiently defended, and demonstratiuely pro­ued, without producing any catalogue of names: and therefore your similie limpeth on the first foot.

Secondly, to proue the visibilitie of the Church by a demonstration à priori, is not to pay a debt, by offering to proue, that a man can pay it; but actually to pay it in the purest gold, whereas it had been sufficient to pay it in ordina­rie siluer or coorser gold. For, a demonstration à priori, as farre exceeds a demonstration à poste­riori, as gold doth siluer, or the finest Angel gold baser coine of the same metall; and therefore your similie halteth on the second foot.

Thirdly, to instance in Christ and his Apostles, was not to lay downe two pieces for twentie, but to lay downe a Diamond worth manie mil­lions, in stead of twentie peeces: for if the Poet could say,Cic. Orator. Plato mihi instar millium: Plato is to mee in stead of a thousand; how much more may a Christian, especially a Protestant Christian say, Christ and his Apostles are to me in stead of mil­lions of witness [...]s? Neither is it an idle ma [...]ter, as in your ridiculous similie you would imply, but a matter of the greatest importance of all, to en­quire whether Christ and his Apostles bee ours or yours: and therefore your similitude halts downe-right on this third foot.

Fourthly, it is not all one, after a man hath laid downe two pieces, to stay till they bee weighed, before hee lay downe any more, and [Page 127] simply to refuse to lay downe any more. It is one thing, voluntarily to goe away; and another thing, to bee puld away by those of his friends whom hee hath cause most to respect; and there­fore your similie is lame also on the fourth foot: and how then can it stand vpright, much lesse goe for currant? Nay, the most beggerly crip­plenesse of this long-robed comparison, is in the begging as granted that which is the moment and ground of the whole question. Hee putteth the case, that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse. Surely, a blind or verie credulous creditor, that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket. O patience! Good Sir Creditor, if you can, vpon your cre­dit, make good, that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne, namely, Christ and his Apostles, are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie, take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest. But if this field, wherein this precious pearle lyeth, bee by good title ours (as I then would, and at any time hereafter can proue) I think, vpon such con­uiction, you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie. Doe but looke on this coyne, though loth, and see whose image and superscription it carryeth: is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter, the Scriptures? They are ours by Christ; Christ ours by them.

The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditi­ons, [Page 128] so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Cop­per of new-minted Articles, that Christ, and his Apostles, and Euangelists, cannot bee admitted; nay, will not bee embased, to bee mingled with such drosse. But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money-Similie. I thought you had vowed pouerty, and might not touch siluer. I haue heard of some of your orders, that if they touch coyne, it blisters their hands: as it is reported of a certaine Lady, that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep, it will make it blister. But it seemeth to mee, that you are Theocritus his Fisher; you fish for gold; and, if you are not wronged, haue caught no small number of gol­den gudgeons in your net, and transported them beyond the seas, carrying, Rem ad non res, no smal stock to English Nunneries, I had almost sayd Ie­suitisses or Loyolasses. And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie, to illustrate this passage in the conference, thus you may frame it: Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ, to bee sixteen-hundred pound: suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound: I, by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age, lay downe a hundred pound of the summe, and bid you tell it after me, and then demand of you, whether the summe bee right? You answer, that you will tell mee, after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds. I presse you again & againe, to answer concerning [Page 129] this first summe, whether it be right or no: if it be right, I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner. You answer as before, Lay downe the rest, or you shall not begin with the first & next heap, but with the last in cōclusion. I charge you, as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master, whose factor you pretend to bee, to giue-ouer all cauil­ling, & plainly & directly to answer me, whether this first sum be right or not: and when, notwith­standing this deep charge, you trifle & cauill, the witnesses, who were to set their hands to my ac­quittāce, pul me away, saying, You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor. This is a true & perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference: wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof.

The Protestant Relation.
Paragraph the eleuenth, touch­ing the issue of the Conference.

This Conference, though it took not that progresse which was desired, by rea­son of the Iesuites tergiuersation, not per­mitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument; yet it hath not beene fruitlesse: for since that time, the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde, and gaue him many thankes for the said [Page 130] meeting, and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion; that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes: and where­as formerly, by their sophisticall perswa­sions, hee was in some doubt of the Church, hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion, that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company, and their doctrine also.

Master FISHER'S Answer.

I haue cause to doubt, that this which the Relator saith, is not true: for thereby hee maketh the old Gen­tleman to bee but of a weake capacity, or of a very mu­table nature: for first, I am sure there was no cause gi­uen in the Conference, of any such effectuall resolution, to bee made by the old Gentleman. Secondly, I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey. If immediately after the Conference, it would argue too much want of capacitie: for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question, in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied (as I verily hope hee did) hee might easily haue mar­ked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes; which also were so answered, as the audience, for want of satisfaction in them, vrged him to leaue off, and [...] produce names of Protestants in all Ages; the which [Page 131] producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages, and yet beeing onely pretended (and that most falsely) to be done for one Age, and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly, be­fore he would goe forward to name men in other Ages, especially in Ages before Luther; at the question requi­red; any meane capacitie might see, that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied; was not fully answered, nor consequently hee satisfied.

Moreouer, the same Gentleman beeing present; when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher, that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages, hee might easily, and doubtlesse did vnderstand; that as yet [...] in all Ages were not giuen, nor consequently, the Question satisfied, in which hee expected Answer. Further­more, presently after hee went away from the Confe­rence, hee told M. Fisher himselfe, that hee was glad, that at the next meeting his Question should bee an­swered: which shewed, that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered.

Lastly, diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past (which was made about the Conference) the old Gentleman was not [...]ore solute a Protestant (as the Relator pretendeth) for meeting M. Fisher, and M, Sweet, hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the [...] that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause: Which Catalogue, M. Fisher, and M. Sweet haue ready for him, but will not deliuer, till he get the Doctors to make [Page 132] theirs ready, that hee bring to them the Doctors Cat [...] ­logue with one hand, and receiue theirs with the others, to deliuer to the Doctors.

All that can bee suspected, is, that in the very time of the said stir, when the old Gentleman either was, or feared to bee called in question; it may perhaps bee, that he might say those words, which the Relator men­tioneth. But this (if it were) was onely vpon fra [...]ltie or humane feare of trouble, and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference, sith both be­fore and after, he shewed a contrary minde, as hath beene said.

Doctor FEATLIE'S Reply.

What you repeat in this passage, touching my proceedings in the Conference, hath beene before vpon diuers occasions answered; and I endeuour, as much as may bee, to auoyd your familiar figure of battologie or repetition. For, that which concerneth M. Bugges, that hee receiued satisfaction by the Conference, and gaue many thankes to Sir Humfrey Lynd for procuring it, and not as you imagine, when the trouble was about the Conference, but the selfesame night, in the very roome wherein we conferd, is not onely proued by Sir Humfrey Lynde his testimonie, but also by M. Bugges owne subscription, both to the Pro­testant Relation in generall, and to this passage in particular, and that of late, since all pretended trouble was blowne ouer. Now M. Fisher, you [Page 133] are a very merry man, that will goe about to face a man out of his beliefe, and dispute him out of that peace and comfort which hee feeleth in his consciecne. M. Bugges may well answer you in the words of Saint Austen, spoken to another purpose, Tu ratiocinare: ego credam, &c. Doe you syllogize: I will beleeue. Demand you a reason, if you list: I will giue thankes. Argue as long as you please, How I could bee resolued by the Conference? I am sure, I was resolued, and so still continue. When the Philosopher in A. Gellius, sophistically disputed against motion in this manner:

‘Whatsoeuer is mooued locally, is either moo­ued in the place wherein it is, or wherein it is not. It cannot be mooued in the place wherein it is not, because that is not to mooue locally, or in place: where the body hath no existence, it can haue no motion. Neither can a body be said to mooue in the place wherein it is, be­cause while a body remaines in its place, it can­not mooue from it:’ One of his Auditors there present, whose arme a little before had beene put out of ioynt; though hee could not verbally answer that his sophisme, yet hee really refeld it thus, At ego sensi motum luxato brachio, I am sure I felt a motion when I hurt my arme, and put the bone out of ioynt. In like manner, when you ar­gue, that M. Bugges could not be mooued by any thing that was spoken in the Conference, be­cause his Question was not answered; or the [Page 134] Catalog [...]e of names not produced; or because D. Featlyes proofs were diuersiue; or because the Po­pish. Audience still called for names; or because you and M. Sweet are not yet satisfied: or because I know not what: M. Bugges, in a word refutes all your reasoning, At ego sensi motum, I am sure I felt my selfe mooued by it: and the doubt which sometimes shook my faith, remooued: So that I wa [...] thereby, not (as the other) put out of ioynt, but in ioynt; and of lame, made whole. Neither will it hence follow, that M. Bugges must needs bee a man of meane capacity, if hee were satisfi­ed by so short a Conference; but rather that God oftentimes vseth weake meanes to ouerthrow Satans strong holds. Firmus the Maniche was reclaimed from that heresie, by a digression of Saint Austens, in a certaine Homily. Alipius was drawn from heathenish sports and pastimes, by an example, in a discourse of Saint Austens on the By. That noble Venetian Marquesse, who left both his Marquisate, and all that hee had, for the loue of the Gospell, and comforta­bly ended his daies at Geneuae, was at the first re­formed, both in his faith and life, by an elegant Simile in a Sermon of Peter Martyrs. Sometimes an exquisite Sermon taketh not the Auditory; and sometimes a farre meaner taketh: now and then a stronger Argument worketh not vpon the vnderstanding and will; and yet a weaker proofe doth at the same time. You cannot bee ignorant of the Story in Ruffinus, of an Arrian Philoso­pher, [Page 135] of whom the learned Bishops in the Coun­cell could get no ground at all: yet a simple vnlearned man, by two or three blunt Interroga­tories, conquered and quite confounded him. Wil you from this, and the like instances, inferre, that the men so conuerted, were men of meane capacity? The contrary euidently appeares in Story: you should rather from hence gather with religious Austen (who may truly be said to [...] written, rather ex gratia, then degratia, so gratiously doth hee write of grace) totum Deo dare, qui vo­luntatem hominis bonam et praeparat adiuuandam,Enchirid. ad adiuuat praeparatam; in our first conuersion, and euery good work after, to ascribe all to God, who both prepares the will to be aided by grace, and aideth it beeing prepared.

Yea, but say you, M. Bugges much desired a se­cond meeting: therefore it seemes, he was not so resolute a Protestant as wee make him. If this were a good Argument, you might prooue all of our side to be vnsettled in our Religion; yea, M. Deane of Carlile, and my selfe also, who much desired, and yet doe, a second meeting, to perfect the work then begun. Though a man be neuer so well resolued in poynt of Religion, yet hee may desire to heare Diuinity-Disputations, and make good vse of them. Yea, but M. Bugges de­sired M. Fisher and M. Sweet to giue him a Cata­logue of names of professors in the Romane Church; saying, that if after this, the Doctors would not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants, [Page 136] hee would dislike their cause. If M. Bugges spake so (which I haue reason to doubt) hee spake it, as hauing certaine knowledge, that we had a Ca­talogue, which hee did or might haue seene in the Conference. Nor indeed doth the desiring or requiring of a Catalogue, inferre any doubt of the conclusion. Though a plaine vnlearned Christian beleeue most firmely, that Christ was borne of the seed of Abraham and Dauid, yet may he desire more particular information, by hearing the beginning of Saint Mathews, or Saint Lukes Gospell read and expounded to him. More­ouer, when I vndertooke to name those who taught Protestant Doctrine in all Ages, if I should faile therein, he should haue had iust cause to dislike my proceedings. Yea but, say you, there was no cause giuen in the Conference at all, of any effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman: therefore he could not bee so resolued by it, as is pretended. For answer heereunto, though I am loth, yet you constraine mee to recapitulate the chiefe points touched in the Conference. Before the Conference, M. Bugges was somewhat staggered in the poynt touching the Visibility of the Church, by your brauadoes, and Rhodomontadoes, that all the world were Papists before Luther; That there was neither vola nor vestigium of a Protestant Church before that time;A briefe reca­pitulation of the Confe­rence.That no Protestant Minister durst encounter you in this point: if any should be so hardy, as to enter into these lists with you; you would presently blank, silence, [Page 137] and nouplus them. Thus possessed, and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident asserti­ons and false suggestions; hee with much adoe, by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes, procures a Con­ference: wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect. Hee and all the Audito­ry obserued D. White, and my selfe, to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions; both to prooue the Visibility of our Church, and disprooue theirs. On the contrary, he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs, to hinder speedie and direct proceedings: and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church,

First, hee heard, that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church, beeing a point of faith, was not to bee built vpon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors, as the Iesuite requi­red; but vpon diuine reuelation in Gods Word, as is confessed byBellarmine loc. sup. cit. Canus loc. l. 11. c. 4. praeter aucto­res sacros nul­lum historicum certum esse posse et [...]doneum, ad faciendum cer­tam in theologia fidem. learned Papists.

Secondly, that a Protestant Church might haue beene visible in all Ages, and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produ­ced, and prooued out of good Authors, because neither all mens names euer were vpon re­cord, nor are all antient Records preserued to this day, neither can wee come by all those Re­cords that are yet extant.

Thirdly, that notwithstanding the Popish brag, that All the Christian world were Papists before Lu­ther; yet you were not able to name any Coun­trey, [Page 138] City, Village or Hamlet, nay not any man, who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ, either professed your Trent-faith in generall, or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in par­ticular.

Fourthly, that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church, was á priori, by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures: of which faith, God promiseth in his Word, that it shall haue visible Professors to the worlds end.

Fiftly, that a visible Church inferrs not neces­sarily a right faith. Iews, Mahumetanes, Gentiles, and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks, haue visible professors of their impieties: yet are they all of a wrong beliefe; if of any on the con­trary, the right faith inferreth necessarily a visi­ble Church, because the true faith cannot bee in a Church, which professeth it not openly, or priuately: therefore the prime and maine que­stion of all is, of the right beliefe, of the primi­tiue and Catholique faith, whether wee or the Church of Rome haue it; and not of a Catalogue of names.

Sixtly, that an offer was made, to name some eminent persons, which in al Ages taught Prote­stant Doctrine, and opposed the Romish errors, either when they came in, or not long after; and that this Catalogue had beene a good way pro­ceeded in, if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations.

[Page 139] Lastly, that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles, and vrged you againe and againe, yea and adiured you also to answer directly, whe­ther they taught our faith or yours; yet you per­emptorily and finally refused so to doe: which hee might well interpret, to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause.

And now let the discreet Reader iudge, whe­ther M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opini­on concerning you and your cause, at least in that particular, of which only he seemed to doubt of.

Shortly after the Conference, M. Fisher sent this Letter ensuing, to the right honorable the Earl of WARVVICK.
The Copie of M. Fisher's Letter.


I Esteeme it a speciall prouidence of God, that your Lordship was present at a late Conference, wherein D. White and D. Featly vndertook to shew a­gainst mee and my companion, that the Protestant Church had beene visible in all Ages, and that their Professors might be named, especially in the Ages before Luther. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proofe to haue consisted in this, that The true [Page 140] Church was alwaies so visible, as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named: but the Protestants was the true Church. Wee refused to dispute of the Minor, because it transferd the Question, and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church, which was then pro­pounded and expected. If▪ as they conclude, they are able to name their Professors in all Ages, why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs, as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours? Why went they about to prooue they were able to name them, when with lesse adoe they might haue named them? Where deeds are iustly expected, words without deeds are worthily neg­lected.

Certainely, heereby they are so farre from hauing dis­charged themselues of the great enterprize they vnder­took, as they stand more engaged then before, to the per­formance of it. For, hauing now professed and acknow­ledged, that the true Church, or (to vse their owne words) the Church that is so visible as the Ca­tholick Church ought to bee (and the Church, whose faith is eternall and vnchanged, must bee), is able to name her Professors in all Ages, either for their owne honour, and for the satisfaction of the world, they must set down the names of their Professors in all Ages; or else they shamefully discouer themselues, not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church, which is able to name them. Againe, at the length yeelding (as they did) to shew the continual Visibility of their Church, by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages, (which they seemed to vndertake with great con­fidence), why did they stick in the first Age alone, refu­sing [Page 141] to name their professors in the Ages following, vn­till the first were tried? May not the Answerer choose to deny which part of the Argument hee pleaseth? and was it euer heard, that hee should bee inforced to reply to one proposition alone, before the whole Argument, whether it were Syllogism or Induction, were fully propounded? Very nobly therefore, and prudently your Lordship in the end desired anothe [...] meeting; not doubting, that your owne partie, within three or foure daies would be con­tent to giue vs the names of their Professors in all Ages, as wee were ready to giue them the names of ours, that thereby both sides might bee the better prepared for a se­cond triall: which when they haue performed, wee shall not faile to encounter with them, either by way of speech or writing, as your Lordship (all things considered) shal think fairest, or safest, or most conuenient for the dis­couery of truth. But if your Lordship shall not bee able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and impor­t [...]nt request, the defect of proofe on their part must needs bee accounted a plaine flight, and no man heereafter can prudently rely his saluation vpon that Church, which (for want of perpetuall Visibility prooued) they them­selues shall haue concluded to be false and feigned.

Thus expecting the issue heereof, and your Lord­ships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer, I remaine, the first of Iuly 1623.

Your Lordships seruant in Christ, IOHN FISHER.

Doctor Featlie's Answer to M. Fisher's Letter.

IN perusing this Letter of yours, I could not but think of the old riddle, Hom [...] [...], videns non videns, lapidem non lapidem, &c. A man, no man, (that is, an Eunuch) seeing, not see­ing (that is, seeing dimly, being [...]urblind) a stone, no stone (that is, a pumice): for, heere is a pri­uate Letter, no Letter, relating, not relating, the substance of my Argument, not my Argument.

First, it may bee call'd a priuate Letter, because it was seald vp like a priuate Letter, and indorsed to an Honorable Personage; yet it was no priuate Letter: for, diuers copies of it were dispersed and read, before the Earle receiued it, who heard of it, before hee read it. His Lord-ships name was set vpon it, onely to make it more passable, and to giue vent for such cheating wares, as Master Fisher thought, would passe more currant, by a Letter addressed to so Noble a Personage.

Secondly, it relateth, and not relateth, because it omitteth much more then it relateth: for the Introduction in the beginning, and the Induction in the end of the Conference, and all my Replies in the middle, they are all not circumcised only, as the Argument here relateth, but quite cut out.

Thirdly, it relateth my Argument, not my Ar­gument; my Argument, because propounded in most of my words: yet not my Argument, be­cause not according to my meaning, when I dis­puted [Page 143] thus in the Conference: The Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged, is so visible, or ought to bee so visible, that the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages. I argued not so, according to my owne opinion, but as it is ex­presly set downe in the Conference, ex concessis, vpon your owne ground: vpon which to sup­plant you, I held it a great disparagement to your cause: and therefore, in repeating the Ar­gument againe, I expresly added, as you your selfe confesse, That Church which holdeth this faith, you beleeue (I said not, wee) to bee so visible,Page that the names of the Professors may be shewed, &c. In the very entrance to the Conference, you ac­knowledge these to haue beene my words: al­though this Question be grounded on vncertain and false supposals: for, a Church may haue beene visible, yet not the names of all Professors thereof now to bee shewed.Page 32. And againe, Are all visible mens names vpon record? are all Records in for­mer times, now to bee produced? And againe, in the same page, M. Sweet calling for names of Prote­stants, well might say, If Protestants had beene in all Ages, their names in euery Age might bee pro­duced. Vnto which, as the Protestant Rel [...]tor [...]aith, and the Counter-Relator denieth it not, D. Featly replyed, saying, This is a non sequitur. Out of all which passages it euidently appeares, that both you in this your Letter, and L. D. otherwise M. Sweet, in the defence of the Appen­dix, bely your owne consciences, in saying, that [Page 144] I professed (out of mine owne iudgement & opi­nion) that the true Church must be able to name Professors in all Ages. It is true, as Brasidas the Lacedemonian ran thorow his Aduersary with his owne Speare;Erasm. Apophtheg. so I took that proposition, tan­quam hastam amentatam, from you, to wound you with your owne weapon. And although I nee­ded not at all to haue descended to an Induction, or produced any Catalogue of such as maintai­ned Protestant Doctrine by name: yet the more to conuince you, and to satisfie some of the Au­ditory, I beganne a Catalogue, and had pro­ceeded farther in it, if I had not beene called a­way by those, whose Authority and Loue might command mee; who would not suffer mee to deale any longer with an aduersary so atheolo­gicall, and alogicall, so irreligious and vnrea­sonable; so irreligious to refuse, finally and per­emptorily, to answer an instance in Christ and his Apostles; beeing vehemently pressed, and not without adiuration: Secondly, so vnreasona­ble, to require an Opponent to prooue at once, eminent professors for 1500 yeeres, to haue taught Protestant Doctrine. Was there euer any that vndertook to make good a catalogue of Pro­fessors in all Ages, who did not first prooue, that there were such in the first Age, and then in the second, et sic de caeteris, and so in the rest? Was there euer a Respondent, who vndertook to answer an Argument by Induction of particu­lars, consisting of 15 or rather 15 hundred parti­culars [Page 145] (and al in his iudgement questionable) who did not answer them piece-meale in order, first applying his Answer to the first particular, and se­condly to the second, &c? I cannot patterne you better, then by that malefactor, who hauing stolne my Oxen, and beeing indited for them seuerally, would not answer directly to the first enditement, Guilty or not guilty; but said; still that hee had that Oxe with his fellowes; heereby hoping, vpon tryall of the whole in one lump, to escape by his book, or benefit of Clergie, as wee call it. In like manner, when you were put to it, to answer directly, Whether the Protestant Professors were not visible in the first Age, and so in the second, and so in the third, &c? you an­swer, It was not visible in the first Age, with the rest, nor in the second with the rest, and further you will not goe. The difference betweene you, is onely this, He answered so shufflingly and confusedly, to saue his neck; and you, to saue the rack of an Argument; he, to slip out by his Cler­gy; you, by your vnclerkly Sophistry. You may bee sure, such kinde of foggie and misty answer­ing, could no way satisfie a man of so cleere a iudgement and apprehension in controuersies of this nature, as the Earle of Warwick is. Which that you may the better know from his own pen, I will acquaint you with a Letter wrote by occa­sion of this businesse, by his Lordship, and ad­dressed to Sir Humfrey Lynde.

To my louing friend Sir Humfrey Lynde.

SIR, since my beeing at your house at the Disputation of M. Doctor Featly and Fisher, diuers haue come vnto mee, to know whe­ther it was a Disputation appointed by me, or no; and whether I was not satisfied with it. Whereby I perceiue, those that learne the doctrine of equi­uocation, will not spare to tell a plaine lye, to doe any man wrong that is not of their opinion. And I am the more confirmed in this opinion: for, since last night, M. Plume came to mee, and deli­uered this enclosed letter, which I much maruell at. I would not answer it, but thus: that I would speake with you, and that M. Fisher should not need feare, that D. Featly would flee from him, but meet him at any time, to make good his Te­net. I had thought to haue spoken with you my selfe, but my earnest occasions pressed mee to go this day into the countrey. Wherefore, if you meet, I pray let the company know, for the mee­ting, that I knew of it but halfe an howre before it was, and I came at the request of another Gen­tleman, and for no desire of mine to be satisfied: for I thank God, my conscience makes no doubt of the truth of our Religion. This I say, because I heare that some of that Religion giue it out, It [Page 147] was my request to haue a Disputation. I pray keepe M. Fishers Letter till I see you, and restore it me againe. You may perceiue the scope of it: but it is as vaine, as his Answers were. Thus with my loue to you, I rest,

Your very louing friend, WARVVICK.

Master FISHER his Reflection vpon the occasion and issue of the Conference.

NOW hauing made an end of this Relation, I am to intreat the gentle Reader to reuiew it, or reflect vpon it, and to call to minde, and mark, first, the occasion, and consequently, the end of the Dis­putation; secondly, the Question, and true meaning of it; thirdly, what method was most fit to be obserued, intrea­ting of this Question; fourthly, what course was taken by the Protestant Disputant, and what by the Catholique Respondent. All which beeing duly considered, thou wilt better see what is to bee iudged of the whole Confe­rence and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the mat­ter treated in it, then perhaps hitherto thou hast done about the occasion.

The occasion of the Disput [...], was, &c.

Doctor FEATLY his Answer.

THere is a threefold sight.

First, per radium rectum, by a right beame or line betweene the eye and obiect; as when I looke directly vpon a mans face, and behold the shape and proportion thereof as it is in it selfe.

Secondly, per radium reflexum, by a reflected line or beame; as, when I behold a mans face and shape in a glasse.

Thirdly, per radium refractum, by a broken beame; as, when I behold the same mans face, or any thing else through dispar medium, as water or glasse. Whosoeuer viewes your Reflection, as you call it, with a single eye, will iudge, that it ought rather to haue been tearmed a Refraction; not for that it proceeds from a man of a broken brain: (for your intellectuals are good enough) but because you defend a broken cause; and your proofes are broken scraps taken out of Brerelies alsme-box: and you represent no truth entirely, but brokenly. If it represent any thing entirely, as by reflection, it is the Fisher viewing himselfe vnhappily caught in his owne net, struggling and striuing to breake out of it, but all in vaine; [...].

As I haue before related your Relation: so I will now reflect a while vpon your Reflection: wherein I finde,

First, matter of repetition touching the questi­on, and meaning of it, and the occasion of the [Page 149] Conference and method vsed in it; whereunto I haue answered before, and it is very tedious to mee, to seethe againe your poore Cole-woort. [...]

Secondly, matter of additions, which are of two sorts; either personall, and these concer­ning

My selfe: for answer whereunto, I refer you to the appendix;

Master Salisburie, a diligent Preacher & smart Disputant, who either hath alreadie, or will shortly meete with you at Fishers folly.

Or real, to wit, certain allegations crudely taken out of Master Brerelyes Protestants A­pologie, falsely so called, tractatu 2. c. 2. sect. 11. subdiuis. 3. to proue, that by the confessi­on of Protestants, there were no Prote­stants before Luther.

Now, although I might iustly passe-ouer in silence those testimonies, partly, because I haue no particular quarrell with Master Brerely, but with your selfe; partly, because none of those al­legations come neere the Outworkes, much lesse the Castle of my defence: yet I hold it not altoge­ther vnfit to examine them particularly, that the indifferent Reader may see with what sinceritie you cite testimonies out of Protestant Writers. Euripides long ago obserued, that things appeare otherwise to those who view them afar off, them to those that view them neere at hand: [Page 150] [...]

Wee read of [...] Spaine, in which all the fish,Plin. nat. hist. l. 2. c. 105. Omnes aurei co­loris ostendit pis­ces, nihil extra illam aquam cae­teris differentes. whilst they swimme in the riuer, are of a gol­den colour▪ but when they are taken [...], they change their [...], nothing like themselues [...] like manner, these testimonies, which you truely alleadge (some you false quote) out of learned & renowned Protestants, in the Authors them­selues haue a fa [...]re other appearance [...] aspect, then in this your abstract.

To pro [...]e▪ there were no Protestants before Luther, you alledge, in the first place, Luther him­selfe.

Master FISHER'S reflection, sect. 2. p. 50.

First therefore▪ Luther himselfe saith, Wee dare boast, that Christ was first published by vs. Lu­ther. Epist. ad Argentin.

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer.

First, I answer, that Luthers words in his Epistle ad Argent. in all the editions which I could finde, are not so as Master Fisher cites them: that which I finde in that Epistle any way looking that way, is, Neque [...] possum me indignum fuisse vas Dei, per quod [...] sac­cursum est: Neither can I deny▪ that I (though vnworthy) haue been an instrument of God, by [Page 151] which innumerable soules haue been helped. A speech as modest as true, far different from that which you quote in stead thereof.

Secondly, if you can, in any Epistle ad Ar­gentin. or elsewhere in Luthers workes, find those words, Wee dare boast, that Christ was first published by vs; the meaning of them may bee gathered from many other places of Luther, to bee this, that in those parts of the Christian world, he was the first that publiquely made head against the Roman errors, and sent a Flag of defiance to the Antichrist of Rome, and vindicated the truth of Christs Gospel, so long with-held in vnrighte­ousnes.

Thirdly, Luther himselfe acknowledgeth, that hee had many fore-runners: he giueth the hands of fellowship to the Piccards, and Waldenses, and (in a manner) canonizeth I. H [...]s for a Saint. In his preface to Wesselus Groningensis, thus hee writeth: Helias This bites, Propheta olim, cùm Ser­mo Domini esset pretiosus, nec abundaret visio, occisis vniuersis pe [...]e Prophetis ab impissimâ Iezabele, arbi­trabatur sese relictū esse solùm: [...]b id vitae pertaesus, op­tabat animam suam tolli, quod vnus impar sibi videre­tur ferendo oneri intolerabili impijssimi populi, et pri [...] ­cipū eius; nescius, adhuc 7000. Domino relicta et Ab­diā cum 100. Prophetis latitantibus seruatū. Quae pa­rabola, si paruis liceat cōp [...]nere magna, huius mei saecul [...] esse videtur: ego enim nescio qua dei pro [...]identiâ in pub­licum raptus, cum mōstris istis indulgentiarū et pontifi­ciarū legum sic pugnauivt me solum esse putarem, etsi [Page 152] satis mihi semper f [...]it animi; ita vt passim [...] et immodesti [...]r accuser, praenimia qua ardeb [...] [...]i­duci [...]: semper tamen id optani, quò tollerer et ego de medio [...]eorum Baaluarum, et eiuiliter m [...]rt [...]s in an­gulo mihi vinerem; prorsus desperans me posse quicq [...] promo [...]ere apud aereas istas frontes, et cer [...]ices ferreas impietatis. Sed ecce, et mihi dicitur, esse [...] reli­quias suas saluas [...] in hoc tempore, et Prophetas [...] [...]b­scondito seruatos. Nec hoc solùm dicitur, sed et [...] gaudi [...] ostenditur: prodij [...] enim Wesselus, quem [...] ­silium dicunt, Frisius Groningensis, [...]ir [...] enij, rari et ra [...]gni spiritus, qu [...] et [...] verè Theodidacton, [...]. quales prophet [...]it f [...]re Christi­anos Esayas. Neque enim ex hominibus [...] i [...] ­dicari potest, sicut nec ego: hic si mihi a [...]ea fuisset lectus, poterat hostibus meis videri, Lutherus [...] ex Wesselo hausisse, adeo spiritus vtrius (que) [...] vnum, &c. To the Christian Reader, Martin Luther wisheth saluation in the Lord.

The Prophet Elias the Thisbite, when the Word of the Lord was precious, and vi­sion failed (all the Prophets (in a manner) be­ing slaine by the most wicked Iezabel) thought that himselfe had been left alone; and therefore being wearie of his life, wished, that God would take it away from him, because being but one, he deemed himselfe vnable to beare the intolerable burden of a most wicked people & their Princes; not knowing, that God had reserued to himselfe yet 7000. and that Abdias; with a hundred o­ther Prophets lurking in secret, were preserued [Page 153] aliue. Which Storie, if I may compare small things to great, seemeth to mee a perfect image or emblem of this age wherein I liue: for, I by diuine prouidence being drawne into the pub­lique theater of the world, so fought with these monsters of Popish Indulgences and Decretals, that I thought my selfe to bee alone, although I neuer wanted courage in these combats; inso­much, that I am rather accused of the contrarie, of an ouerpoignant stile and fierie zeale: yet I alwaies wished, that God would take mee from among my Baalites, and that, being ciuilly dead, I might enioy my selfe in some corner; vtterly despairing of doing any good vpon the brazen foreheads and iron necks of the wicked. But behold, it is told mee also (as it was told Elias) that God hath reserued vnto himselfe a remainder (of true beleeuers) euen in this time, & that there are Prophets kept in secret: neither is this said onely vnto me, but demonstrated vnto me also, to my great comfort: for, Wesselus Frisius Groningensis (whom they call Basil) is lately set out in print, a man of a rare and great spirit, and admirable wit, who (it appeares) was truely taught of God, as those Christians were to bee, of which Esay prophesieth. For, it cannot bee thought, that hee receyued his learning from men; as neither did I. If I had read this Author before, my enemies might haue thought, that I drew all out of Wesselus Store-house, his spirit & mine so perfectly agree.

[Page 154] And as Luther agnized Wesselus for his noble forerunner: so hee imbraced with truest affecti­on the Waldenses (tearmed, fratres Pigardi) as appeares in his preface before the [...] confession.

‘Quanqùam fratres hi, per Bohemiam et [...] agentes, [...] annis odioso nomine Pigardi sen haretici e [...]schism a [...]ici sint traducti, visum est meo quaque testimonia, [...] possum illis seruire [...] ( [...] quid volet [...] [...]estimonium) praesertim apud [...].’

‘Cùm esse [...] papista, verè et [...] animo istos Pigard [...]s fratres odiebā magno zelo Dei et religionis, nullo em­nin [...] lucri aut gloriae studio. Deni (que), cùm aliquando in aliquot libros Io. Hus impru [...]s incidissem, et Scrip­turas tam potenter et purè tractatas vidissem, vt [...] ­pere inciperem, cur talem ac tantum virū exususse [...] Papa et Concilium; mo [...] territ [...], clausi codicem, sus­picatus venenum sub melle l [...]cre, quo [...] infici posset: tam violentum regnabat in [...] papalis nominis et Concilij.’

‘Sed post [...]uam, &c. ibi caepit gaudium cordis mei: et circumspectis omnibus, quos Papa pro hareticis dam [...]anerat, et per [...]iderat, pro Sancti [...] et Marty [...]b [...] laudabam, praeser tim quorum pia scrip [...]a vel confes­siones potui reper [...]re.’

‘Inter hos autem occurr [...]bant et isti fratres (quos Pigardos vocabant) iam mihi non ita inuisi, vt [...] erant in papistate mea. Denique offendi in eis [...] [Page 155] illud et magnum miracul [...]m, in [...]eclesiâ Pap [...] penè in [...]uditum; scilicet quòd, omissis homi [...] d [...]ctri [...]is, quantùm poterant, meditarentur in lege Domini die ac nocte, esseque eos in Scripturis peritos et paratos, cùm in papatis ipsimagistri nostri prorsus negligerent Scripturas.’

‘Et gratulari tum illis tum nobis, quòd qui inter nos ipsos quoque longe fuimus, destructo nunc interstitio suspitionis, quae nobis mut [...]ò haeretici videbamur, facti sumus propè, et reducti simul sumus in vnum ou [...]le. Cōmendo igitur in Domino omnibus piis et hanc confessionem fratrum, in qua videbunt clarè, quantâ iniuriâ hactenus à Papistis fuerint damnati et vexati.’

‘Although these brethren dwelling in Bo­hemia and Morauia, haue set forth the confession of their faith & doctrine in their owne bookes, more dexterously and learnedly, then that they need my commendation or preface: yet in as much as for these many yeeres they haue been branded with the odious name of Pigards, Hereticks and Schismaticks, I thought fit to afford them my best testimonie among our owne, if yet it beare any weight at all.’

‘When I was a Papist, I truely & from my heart hated these brethren tearmed Pigards, out of a great zeale of God and Religion, and not out of any desire of glory or gain [...] and when [...] vna­wares I lighted on some of the bookes of Iob [...] Hus, and therein obserued the Scriptures so powerfully and so purely handled, that I [Page 156] began to maruell why the Pope and his Coun­cell should burne a man of such worth: pre­sently I shut the booke; suspecting, that vnder hony there might lye hid some poyson, where-with my simplicitie might haue been infected. So strongly was I bewitched with the name of a Pope and a Councell.’

‘But after that, &c. there began the ioy of my heart: and viewing all those whom the Pope had condemned, and put to death for Heretiques, I esteemed them as Saints & Mar­tyrs; especially those whose godly writings and confessions I could finde, &c.’

‘Among these, I met with those brethren whom they call Pigards, who were not now so hatefull to mee, as they had been formerly in the time of my Popery. To be briefe, I found in these men a miracle, and that a very great one, almost vnheard of in the Popish Church, to wit, that these men, leauing the doctrines of men, to the vtmost of their indeauour medita­ted in the Law of God day and night, and were very readie and skilfull in Scriptures; whereas in the papacie, the greatest clarkes vtterly neg­lect the Scriptures.’

‘And I could not but congratulate both them & vs, that we who before were far seuered one from another (esteeming each other as Here­tiques) now by the breaking downe of the partition wall of suspition, became neere one to the other, and were together brought into one Sheepefold.’

[Page 157] Wherefore I commend to all the seruants of God, this confession of the Brethren, whereby all men may cleerely perceiue how wrongfully they haue beene condemned and vexed by the Papists.

Now how worthily Martin Luther conceyued of Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague, it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul. 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum, viros catholic [...]s, combusserunt haere­tici ipsi, & Apostatae, & Antichristi discipuli: they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom, both Catholique men, they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes, and the disciples of Antichrist. And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus, prefixed to the works of Hus, In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc, quòd in Constantiensi Concilio opti­mum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit: In the number of those workes of the holy Fa­ther the Pope, this is one, that in the Councell of Constance, hee condemned Iohn Hus, a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety: And in the second preface, Has Epistolas sancti Martyris, Iohannis Hus, &c. These Epistles of the holy Mar­tyr Iohn Hus: And in his third Preface,A fide dignis hominibus percepi, Imperatorem Maximilia­num, de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum, Hei! hei! se­cerunt bono illi viro iniuriam. Et Erasmus Roter. in primis libellis (quos typis excusos adhuc mecum ha­beo) manifestè scribit, Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse. Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria. Et paulò pòst porrò, In confesso est attestan­tibus [Page 158] et aduersarijs (quorum ipse nonn [...]ll [...]s, eosque magnos theologos, audiui ante annos 30), fuisse [...] excellenter doctum, et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Concili [...]. Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro, incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus, prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi, quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset, cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatu [...] esset: [...]iter­t [...] inter l [...]gendum obstupefactu [...], admiratione afficie­bar propè incre dibili, quam ob causam tandem ex [...]s esset vir tantus, in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis, &c. I haue heard from men of credit, that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus: Alas! alas! they did that good man wrong: and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed (lying yet by me) writeth, that indeed Iohn Hus was burned, but not conuicted. This was the iudgement of lear­ned men alwaies, concerning Iohn Hus, that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him. For proofe whereof, hee alleageth Doctor Sta [...]pri­tius, and Andrew Praule; and in the end, addeth moreouer, It is a thing confessed, euen by our Aduersaries themselues (some of whom, beeing great Diuines, I heard 30 yeeres agoe), that Iohn Hus was excellently learned, and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell. I my selfe, when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Er­ford, meeting with a booke of Sermons, penn'd by Iohn Hus, was inflamed with a desire of rea­ding [Page 159] it thorow, that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached. This book was happily kept from burning, lying hid among many other in the publique Library: in the reading whereof, I was amazed, and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be, that so great a Clarke, so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture, should bee burned.

Thus you see, how farre Luther was from de­tracting from any of his fore-runners: to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth, as they had yelded to the Truth. And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue, how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death, was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person. Iohn Hus his words were, which are yet to bee seene, stamped in antient coyne, currant among the Hussites, Centum reuolutis annis, &c. After a hundred yeeres, you shall answer God and mee: and some affirme, that hee added, Iam Hus, that is, in the Bohemian Language, Goose: but there shall follow mee a Swan, &c. And indeed, after a hun­dred yeeres, that Swan appeared in the world, which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion, whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life, and purity of Doctrine.

Master FISHER.

Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus, In theol. Calu. l. 2. fol. 130. versus finem. Schlusenburg saith, It is impudencie to say, that many learned men in Germany (and the like is of other countries) before Luther, did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell.

And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much,Geo. Mylli. iu Augu tanae Confessionis explic. art. 70. de Eccles. but prooueth it by this Argument, If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office, there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformati­on. page 137. Benedict. Morgenst. tract. de Eccl. page 145.Another saith, It is ridiculous to think, that in the time before Luther, any had the purity of doctrine, and that Luther should receiue if from them, and [...] they from Luther; considering, saith hee, it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time, all Chur­ches were ouer-whelmed with more then C [...]merian darknesse, and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same, and to restore the light of true doctrine.

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer.

First, I would haue you to know, M. Fisher, that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech, no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites: such Writers of the pet [...]y forme, of little antiquity, and lesse learning, were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of mo­ment [Page 161] in Diuinity. But I perceiue by you, M. Fisher, that (according to the Prouerb) all is fish that commeth to your net. If these three had ioynt­ly testified that for which you cite them, yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away, by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they.Apologet. Regius, alledged by your owne Brerely, testifyeth most expresly the con­trary: Dico fuisse ante Lutherum, verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires, coetum Eccle­siasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus, nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potue­rit. I say, that before Luther there was a compa­nie professing the true Religion of the same be­liefe with Luther, although this company was not agnized by the Papists, nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at, by rea­son of the Popish tyrannie.Whitakerus de Eccles. cont. Bellar. contro­uers. secunda. Nostra Ecclesia tum fuit. At non fuit visibilis, in­quit Bellarmi­nus. Quid tum? an ideo non fuit? Nequaquam: latc [...]at enim tum in solitudine. Whitaker auowes Re­gius: Our Church was then (viz. in the Ages before Luther). But it was not visible, saith Bellarmine (to weet, in the Popish sense). What then? Will it fol­low, that therefore it was not at all in the world? By no meanes; for it lay hid in the Desart. O [...]colam­padius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Wal­denses, are extant in their works. I might alledge the testimonies of Constance andIn Apocalip. Bullinger,In orat de Wald.Ve­sembekius,De vera et falsa relig. l. 4.Viret,In his me­morials of the Waldenses.Vignea [...]s,Epist. 250 et. 251 et 179.Caluin,De viris il­lustrib.Beza,In resp. ad Camp. ratio 3.Hum­frey,His acts and Monuments.Fox,In catal test. veritatis.Illyri [...]us, and many other Prote­stants of higher rank, then such sneakers as Schlu­senburg, or Myllius, or Morgenst. All the former ac­knowledge, that the Hussites and Waldenses [Page 162] walked with a right foot in that way of Truth, which since Luther (blessed bee God) hath beene much more cleerely discouered, and trod­den, then in former times. If Protestant Writers sway little with you, who yet could better tell then you, or M. Sweet, and such other new vpstart Iesuites, who were Luthers forerunners; learne of your owneContra Wal­dens. Rainerius, andContra Wal­dens. Claudius de Seissel, andHist. Hussit. l. 1. Cocleus, andin tabulis & alit. Lyndanus, andHist. ciuit. Iudg. l. 3. Claudius Ru­bis, andHist. Bohem. Aeneas Syluius, andHist. Bohem. Iohn Dubranius, and Contra haeres. Alfonsus à Castro, and the Author of the Fascicu­lus rerum exet: and many other, that the Wal­denses bore a Torch before Luther, and shewed him his way. Yea but Schlusenburg saith, It is im­pudencie to say, that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell. Schlu­senburgs words are, Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse, multos viros erudi­tos in Germaniâ, priusquam prodiret Lutherus, euan­gelij doctrinam tenüisse; adeoque, ipsum Pellicanum, priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri, Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse. Vtenboius writes impudently, that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme, that ma­ny learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell, before Luther appeared; and that Pel­licanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgato­ry, before the name of Luther was heard. For ought I know, Vtenboius is as honest a man, as Schlu­senburgius: and if Schlusenburgius deny it, Vtenboius affirmeth it, yea, and (for ought is prooued to the contrary) Conradus Pellicanus also: yet that which [Page 163] Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master, no way helpeth your cause: for, admit there were not in Germany, yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands, as in Bohemia, France, England, &c. who, before Luther, embraced the doctrine of the Gospell.

Secondly, in Germany it selfe, there were not multi eruditi viri, many learned men; yet there might be some, for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary: therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short, neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke. His words are, Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos; Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset, Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset. Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos, qui ante Luthe­rum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri. Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista, causa non fuisset. If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office; If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie, there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation. Therefore, we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie, to whom Luther suc­ceeded: for if there had beene such in the Ro­mane Church, there had beene no cause to de­part from it. What makes this testimony for you? Is it for the honor of your Church, to bee truly branded with Apostasie? to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it? What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the [Page 164] Papacy; will it follow, that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere? It is true, Re­formation presupposeth a Deformation, as a re­medy presupposeth a disease; & a purgation pre­cedent matter fit to bee purged. Though the Romane Church, or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church, was vnsound in the faith, and very corrupt and rotten; yet were there other sound members of Christs Church, in whose steps, it is well knowne, that Luther trod. What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this? Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth, that There were [...] orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea, therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther. Now for Benedictus Morgenst, Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra. Hee who found him for you, makes him runne the same way withBrerely Protest. Ap [...]l. Sect. 11. de Fraet. orthod. Eccles. Ioachimus Camerarius, but not whither you would haue him. They both stand for the honor of Luther, and maintaine, that he a­lone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reforma­tion, & that none ought to share with him in that dignity, in beeing the first Apostle of the refor­med Churches. They will not endure, that Lu­ther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne, but out of the Fountaine of li­uing water, the Scriptures. Wicklef indeed, saith Ioachimus, was instructed by the Waldenses, and Hus by Wicklef: but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef, but was [...], taught of himselfe out of Scriptures. This [Page 165] preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther. Zuinglius and Pellicanus, and Vtenboius, and your owne Alfonsus à Castro, seeme to make others as ready & forward at that time, as Luther. And indeed, whether Luther set Zuinglius, or Zuinglius Luther first a-work, or whe­ther the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant, to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple, I hold it needlesse to define. Let Luther and Zuinglius, and many other their contemporaries and fel­low-workmen in that great work, shine as so ma­ny precious stones in the foundation of the re­formed Churches: Ne sit primus, nec vel imus quispiam. Will it follow, that because Luther was [...], and did not tind his candle at another mans light, therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time, but hee? It will follow, say you, because Morgenst addeth, that. It is manifest to the whole world, that before Luther's time, all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse. And you adde also to Mor­genst, fiue other corroboratory testimonies, of Caluin, Bucer, Beza, Iewell and Perkins: whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer, I will dismisse you.

Master FISHER.

And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans (who yet could better tell, then D. Featly, D. White, and such other new Masters) I will adde heereunto what is said, first, byCaluin in l. Epist. ep. 141. Caluin, who doth acknowledge, that in this Lutheran reformation, there was made a discession or departure from all the world. Secondly, byBucer Ep. ad Epis. Here­ford. Bucer, who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine. Thirdly, by Beza Beza in Theol. Ep. Epist. 5. a principall Caluinist, who teacheth, that at this time, ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant; and consequently teacheth, that there was at that time no visible Church, and so if any Church at all, it was onely inuisible, as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines, namelyIewel, in his Apologie of the Church, cap. 4. diuis. 2. and in his de­fence 40. Master Iewel, who saith, The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of, when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell; and M. Perkins, Perkins in his Expos. of the Creed, who saith, Wee say, that before the daies of Luther, for the space of many hundred yeeres, an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth, and that our (Protestant) Church was not visible to the world.

Doctor FEATLY.

When Caluin saith, There was a departure made from all the world; and Morgenst, That all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes; and Perkins, that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth; and Iewell; that Luther & Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God, to giue light to the whole world: their meaning is not, that there was no light in those times in Goshen, or that there were no Abdiases, with many other Prophets lying in secret; or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal: for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings. But they take the word World, as it is vsually taken both in sa­cred & prophane Writers, for the greater part of the world, or at least, that part that beareth the greatest sway, and is in a manner onely in voage. Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn; The whole world is set on wickednesse; and the like in S. Ierome, Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum; the whole world sighed, that it became Arrian. As Luther, so Caluin also acknow­ledgeth, that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth, sometimes more, sometimes lesse pur­ged: And further, they deny not, but that be­fore the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church, from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies, there were [Page 168] many that in sundry corners of the earth, seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe, and clen­sed it from darnell & tares. Among whom, were Fratres Pigardi, a remainder of the Waldenses; betweene whom, and Caluin, many kinde offices passed, as their mutuall Letters testifie, extant in Caluins works.Inter Epist. Calu. Ep. 250. Quomam, vir venerande, ante annos circiter triginta, inter humanit atem tuam, tum Ar­gentina agen­tem, & fratres qui falso Pigardi vel Waldenses dicuntur, cha­ris [...]imos in Do­mino Patres no­stros sancta in­tercessit no [...]itna & familiaritas, &c. Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin:

Reuerend in the Lord: because aboue 30 yeeres agoe, when you remained at Argentine, there was an holy league of loue and entire friendship and familiarity be­tweene you and the brethren, who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses, our dearest Fathers in the Lord; Wee, who now hold the place of those our Fathers, (whom God hath called, almost all of them, out of this mortall life) thought fit to renew that knowledge, or rather band of Christian loue, wherewith all the seruants of God, especially the Ministers of the Gospell, ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together.

To the former letter, Caluin returnes this cour­teous answer, Gratias agimus non vulgares, quòd Fratres qui vestrierga nos amoris fra­ternaque con­iuncti [...]nis testes essent, et qu [...]si Sponsores mit­tere grauati non estis: eóque libentiùs offici [...]m hoc vest rum s [...]nus amplexi, qu [...]a ex sinceran pietatis studio manabat. Cupi­mus idem vicis­sem v [...]bis de propenso nostro ad fouendam sanctam vnita­tem affectu per­su [...]sum esse, &c. Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes, for sending the brethren vnto vs, who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your loue to­wards vs, and brotherly coniunction; which kind office of yours, wee the more willingly embrace, because it flowed from a sincere loue of true Religion. Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vs towards you, and the great desire we haue to che­rish this holy vnity among vs. For, being so farre remoo­ued one from another, and compassed round about with enemies, who take vp the greater part of the world, it [Page 169] is a great delight vnto vs to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion, &c.

Againe, the same Caluin in his Epistles, Epist. 179. to Stanist. Carninsk, thus writeth of the Waldenses: De vestro cum Waldensibus consensu optima quaeque spero, non modò quia sanctam vnita­tem, in quam co­alescunt Christi membra, Deus semper benedice­re solitus est, sed quòd inter haec rudimenta, fra­trum Waldensi­um peritiam, quam longo vsu Dominus exer­cuit, non vulgari adiumento vobis fore spero. Quare vobis omnibus danda est opera, vt haec pia con­spiratio magis ac magis sancia­tur, &c. I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses; not onely, because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity, in which the members of Christ grow vp together, but also, because in these your rudi­ments and beginnings, I conceiue, that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses, will bee an extraordinary help vnto you: wherefore all of you must doe the vtter­most of your endeuours, that this holy agreement & con­sent betweene you, may more and more be established, &c.

Martin Bucer (whom you alleage in the next place) held the like correspondence with the Waldenses, as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vnto them.

Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father, who hath preserued you to this present time, in so great knowledge of his truth, and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof, hauing made you capable and fit to doe it. Be­hold now, what the nature of true faith is, which is, that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light, it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vnto it of God. Saint Paul is an example to vs, who in all his epistles, shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God. And doubtlesse, if wee pray with a good heart, that the name of God be sanctified, and his Kingdome may come, we shall prosecute nothing with [Page 170] such diligence, as the establishment of the truth where it is not, and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted. One onely thing doth especially grieue mee, that our imployments at this time are such, about other affaires, that wee haue no leasure to answer you at large, as we desire, &c.

By the contents of this Letter, and many other passages in Bucers Works, which for breuities sake I omit, it appeares that Bucer, in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doc­trine, did not thereby intend, that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the re­formed Churches; for, hee could not bee ig­norant, that after Christ and his Apostles, and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers, Bertram, & Elfrick, & Berengarius, and Petrus Brus, and Henry of Tolous, and Dulcinus, and Arnoldus, and Lollardus, and Wicklef, and Hus, and Ierome of Prague, and many other Starres, fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera. But Bucers meaning is, that Luther was the first, who in our Age and memory, pub­likely and success-fully set on foot a generall Re­formation of the Church in these Westerne parts: when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering, grew now to a ripe coare, Luther was the first who openly lanced it. Luther formed no new Church, but reformed the Church hee found; and therefore cannot bee termed, The first Apostle of Prote­stant Doctrine; although, in a tolerable sense, hee may be stiled, The first Apostle of the happie [Page 171] Reformation in our daies. Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary, obscured with rust: he made not new gold.

In your allegation out of Beza, by suppressing the Aduerb (penè, almost), you shew your selfe, non penè, not almost, sed penitùs, altogether a falsi­ficator. Beza's words, Epist. 5. are, Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus, cùm vel nulla, vel penè nulla est or­dinaria vocatio, sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papa­tu. We say, that then extraordinary calling takes place, when there is either no, or almost no ordi­nary vocation (of Pastors), as in our time fell out in the Papacie. This (almost) you omit altoge­ther. For Beza's opinion, touching extraordina­ry calling, as I doe not heere oppugne, so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine. We can, and haue prooued lawfull & ordinary calling in our Church of England, as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject, late­ly reuised by him before his death, and translated into Latine, at this instant sweating vnder the Presse. Admit, there had beene no ordinary cal­ling of right-beleeuing Church-men, Bishops, or Priests, when Luther did first sound his siluer Trumpet: what will you inferre thereupon? that at that time there was no visible Church? There Beza leaues you, who professeth both a visible Church in generall, consisting of mem­bers, sound and vnsound, and these more or lesse; and in particular,In his booke of worthy men. hee calleth the Waldenses, The seed of the most pure, antient, Christian Church, which [Page 172] was miraculously preserued in the midst of the darknes and errors, which haue beene hatched by Satan in these latter times. And as Beza leaues you, in this your inference, so also doth the Truth: For, although the Ship of Christ is in great danger, when erronious Pastors, like false lights, are set vp in the Watch-Towers of Sion, yet, sith our chiefe Pilot hath forewarned vs heereof, and bid vs take heede of false prophets and teachers, and hath left vs a most certaine direction in his Word, which is the true Light, [...] conduct vs to those pulchri portus, the faire Ha­uens in Heauen; the people of God may keepe the right way, and through Gods grace escape the quick-sands of heresie. As God bestoweth diuers gifts of the Spirit ordinarily vpon the Clergie, so he bestoweth also where he pleaseth, Spiritum discretionis, in the Laytie, a Spirit whereby they may discerne spirits, whether they are of God or no; a Spirit, by which, trying all things, they may hold fast that is good. And if their ghostly Fathers offer them a stone for bread, Mat. 7. 9, 10. or a Serpent for fish, they will cast it away: Or if more cun­ningly they shall mingle error and heresie with truth, and offer them, as your Teachers did and doe, an apple with a worme in it, or a cup of wine with a dead Fly, they will take out the worm and Fly, and then eat of the one, and drink of the other. This is that whichBaltasar Praefat. in Wal­dens. Lydius truly obserueth, Oft-times the eares of the Auditors are purer then the tongue of the Preacher. Hee deliuers [Page 173] vngarbled spices, they garble it; vnsifted meale, they sift and boult it; impure milke, they straine it. In the daies of Ieremy, and much more after the death of the Prophet Malachy, vntill the birth of Christ, there were few(I would see a Cata­logue of true Teachers of the infallible faith in those times.) Doctors in Israel, that rightly expounded the Law, and taught Gods people as they ought: yet no man doubts that God had then a visible Church; as also af­terwards in the time of the Arrian & Eutychian persecution, in which there were very few Bi­shops or Pastors vntainted with those heresies: Therefore, although we should grant you your antecedent out of Beza, that there was no ordi­nary vocation at that time, of pure and sincere Teachers, yet wee will barre you of your con­clusion, that at that time there was no visible Church. Our English Diuines, alledged by you, affirme no such thing. Perkins saith not, that our Church was simply inuisible, but that it was not visible to the world; adding in the same place, that it lay hid vnder the chaffe of Popery. And the truth of this, saith hee, the Records of all Ages manifest. The same Perkins, in his Re­formed Catholick, more fully explaineth his meaning, thus: Though Popery raigned and ouerspred the face of the earth, for many hundred yeeres: yet in the middest thereof, God reserued a people to himselfe, that truly worshipped him; The woman fled into the wil­dernesse, &c. And she still retaines a remnant of her seed, which keepe the commandement of God, and haue the testimony of Iesus Christ. See here how farre [Page 174] hee is from denying a Protestant Church extant [...] that he affirmeth it to haue growne vp and thri­ued, euen in the Thicket of Popery, though much ouer-shadowed and ouer-topped. Neither can you finde any flaw or cloud in that orient Ge [...] of our Church,Apolog. part. 4. cap. 4. Diuis. 2. Bishop Iewell, whose words are these: When in the middest of the darknesse of that Age, first beganne to spring and shine some glimmering beame of truth, vnknowne at that time, and [...] of; When also Martin Luther, and H [...]lderick Zuinglius, beeing most excellent men, euen seek from God, to giue light to the whole world, first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell, &c. A Dia­mond cannot bee cut or polished but by a Dia­mond: Let therefore this Iewell brighten and cleere himselfe. In the same part of the Apologie, Chap. 5. Diuis. 1. hee calleth Martin Luther, the publisher and setter forward of this doctrine (not the Author); And Chap. 14. Diuis. 1. he fully cleeres the point in difference betweene vs, touching visible Protestants before Luther: Many [...] many learned and godly men, haue often and carefully complained, how all these things haue cleered [...] time: For, euen in the middest of that [...] darknesse God would yet there should bee some, who though they gaue not a cleere & bright light; yet should kindle, were it but some sparks, which men being in darknesse, might espie. And hee particularly [...] Hillary, Gregory, Bernard, Pauperes de Lugd [...], [...] Bishops of Greece and Asia as also [...] Petrach, Sauanarolla, and others. And Chap­ter [Page 175] 15. he preuenteth a c [...]uill, that might haue bin made against these witnesses of the truth, by some ignorant persons. Neither (saith hee) can any man alleage, that these Authors were Luthers or Zuinglius Schollers: for they liued not only certaine yeeres, but also certaine Ages, [...]re euer Luther or Zuinglius names were heard of.

Now, I pray see, M. Fisher, what a goodly dish of fish you haue serued in, to furnish your Table, and let the indifferent: Reader iudge, whether you may safely trust M. Brer [...]ly, or wee you, in allegations, especially out of Protestant Writers; whose words either you corrupt, or adulterate their meaning, or both, as euidently appeares in all the places aboue-cited.

And thus haue I now at length spung'd out all the spots, which your pen hath cast on the Con­ference. As for personall aspersions vpon mee, especialy, of want of grauity and patience, I hold it fittest to refell these and the like slanders by silent and patient enduring them. As you heerein take Petilian the Donatist, for your precedent of impudent railing, so I will take Saint Austen for my patterne of silent patience, and cloze vp all further Answer in his words:Lib 3. cont. [...]ite­ras Petil. cap. 11. Quid mirum, si cùm grana de areâ Domini excussa, simul & paleam intror sum trabo, iniuriam resilientis pulueris suffero? What maruell, if in sweeping the Lords floore, and seeking to gather-in graines that are flowne out, I endure a little dust? Homo sum enim de areâ Christi; palea▪ si malus; granum, si bonus; non [Page 176] est h [...]ius area v [...]ni [...]labrum lingus Petiliani: I am a man, and I know I am of Christs floore, that is, in his true visible Church; all the Papists in the world shall neuer disprooue it: If I am euill; I am chaffe; if good, I am wheat: and whether I bee the one or the other, this is my comfort, I am sure, the Iesuites tongue is not the fanne of this floore. What I haue written touching the visi­bility of Christs true Church, I (in all humility) submit to the iudgement of the true visible Church. I hope, the Truth shall suffer nothing, because of mee: and if I suffer any thing, by loose tongues or pens, because of the Truth, I will account it my Ioy & Crowne in the Day of our Lord Iesus Christ: To whose sauing grace, and boundlesse mercy, I commend all those who loue Truth in sincerity.


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